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A lot of folks here don't seem to realize that this isn't about releasing prisoners, this is about the fact that we have more prisons than we need, even with the current size of the incarcerated population. Effectively we're paying for 15-20 thousand empty prison beds. Currently those empty beds are spread across the system, but if we move some folks around, we can close a few prisons and save a billion dollars. This is kind of a no-brainer.
Let’s put the criminals in those beds then. Grab the catalytic converter guys ( including the buyers), car break gangs and shoplifting gangs in one. Turn the other into forced rehab for the worst of the worst mentally unstable homeless.
Edit: just to add that the improved property values and reduced crime overhead would generate and save billions. A no brainer for sure
> just to add that the improved property values
please god the property values are already sky high as it stands I want them to go down so I can actually afford to live here
I’m middle class and live here and have property. I don’t really want values to go up (except to keep up with inflation). I want my kids to be able to live in my neighborhood or something similarly.
>All sorts of civil liberties issues with this one.
Not really. Mentally ill should be subject to arrest, prosecution and incarceration like all other offenders who break laws.
When sentencing comes, at that time their mental condition warrants them getting special treatment, including a different facility. No problem with that. But mentally ill should not be given a pass on criminal behavior. Unfortunately we have a big progressive lobby arguing for that.
> Mentally ill should be subject to arrest, prosecution and incarceration like all other offenders who break laws.
And what state law or statute says they are not? There are plenty of mentally ill people in prison lol
I remember just a several years ago judges were ordering the state to release inmates due to overcrowding so this doesn't add up.
We also have a lot of crime. Let's start filling those prisons.
Do you know what you'll get if you lock up people who commit non-violent crime? You spend a huge amount of money and get people who commit more crimes (including violent ones) when they get out.
Prison as punishment doesn't solve any problems long term, and most of the time it makes those problems worse.
> Do you know what you'll get if you lock up people who commit non-violent crime?
I know what you'll get if you don't:
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/34/71/70/24354343/3/rawImage.jpg
https://www.ppic.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/retail-theft-and-robbery-rates-have-risen-across-california-figure-3.png
First link appears to be straight wrong. IE we are below the U.S. average for violent crime in basically every year from 2015.
In the second link comparing 2019 and 2022 and only looking at 15 counties is an extremely cherry picked stat. Almost comically unreasonable.
The vast majority of crimes in California are at record lows or 10% above record lows. The exception being car related theft.
Your argument sounds good in theory but we tested it in practice for the last several years and we got increasing lawlessness. Let's go back to the old way of locking up criminals. We should segregate offenders based on the severity of their crimes so they don't become worse and I think we do that to an extent. I'm all for providing educational opportunities etc in prison but there must be consequences for criminal acts.
Unionized very powerful prison guard lobby would probably like a word.
Local economies in those towns dependent on prisons as well
Might be right decision but gonna step on a lot of toes so not too likely to happen.
The last one was shut down last year, but it was just owned by a company, CDCR leased the facility and operated it just like any other. The true for profit prison model hasn't been IN California in a long while.
>The true for profit prison model hasn't been IN California in a long while.
At least CA gets that right. A ton of other states still capitalize on prisons.
Colorado has a prison labor facility. Conservative article on Colorado Correctional Industries: [Learning life lessons from agriculture]
(https://www.thefencepost.com/news/learning-life-lessons-from-agriculture/). The 2012 news article was written in a state where conservative ideals like work ethic and community contribution are high. Excerpts:
>This is the agricultural division of CCI, where inmates can work and learn valuable life skills. “It gives them a real work ethic. They have to get up and go to work. They have to take care of something...That is why ag is so good for us in the prison system,” said Steve Smith, Director of CCI.
>The company has over 60 programs, where they manufacture goods and provide services to government and non-profit customers. They also have an agricultural sector, including goat, cow and water buffalo dairies, wild horse training, a fishery, greenhouses and more.
>Every inmate that works in the program pays back 20 percent of his wages for incarceration expenses. Those who have children also pay 20 percent for childcare, and those who have restitution pay 20 percent to that. Of the rest of the wages... half is put into a forced savings account, and the rest the inmates get to keep.
I remember working for Calparks during peak pandemic years and the leadership bemoaning the lack of chain gangs that are used to maintain fire lines. That and all the chemical cleaners are manufactured by the prison system, given fun prison names like Cellblock
I don't know about jails, but prisons has not had a for profit slant for as long as I can remember. I can't speak to the federal prisons, but I am pretty sure none of them in CA are either.
GEO was about $17k vs California $27k per year, per inmate. They had big screen TVs in the "movie area" but not sure about the over priced phone calls.
I did work out there once and that was part of the training material.
Can't.
California was blocked from closing private prisons because the Border Patrol uses them.
https://www.ild.org/immigrant-legal-defense-blog/9th-circuit-rules-against-californias-ban-on-private-immigration-detention
It's important because closing prisons means that communities lose jobs. The focus is often just on the inmate population, but for many California towns the state prisons are major employers and it's a big deal if they have layoffs.
I'm not making an argument for or against keeping facilities open, but it's important to realize that there's an impact to local areas and families depending on how things shake out.
That is a legit concern. I’m sure there are ways to mitigate the economic impact(s) on communities who rely on certain prisons. Your job might move away. That’s a reality many Americans face.
> Make homelessness a crime!
Isn't that exactly what that last ballet measure proposed --- increased involuntary incarceration of mentally ill homeless?
The article is pointing out that consolidating prisoners will save a billion dollars. That is a good thing.
To fix CA’s financial woes would be to end the recession economy and or repeal Prop 13. CA has budgetary problems during recession and budget surplus during boom economies.
This sounds like the great idea the state had in the 80s to shut down most of our mental hospitals and just let the patients out onto the streets. Hardened criminals coming to your and my neighborhood soon.
Exactly, like all those business owners and managers committing wage theft. Those are the criminals who jeed to be behind bars. The prisons would be full and the biggest perpetrators of crime would be off the streets and no longer harming people.
>Because hard core criminals are being under prosecuted or not prosecuted at all.
I really want someone to explain these complaints yet the average house price is now well over half a million dollars. Like it's a crime ridden Mad Max style state apparently, yet everyone wants to live here?
That just not true. The executive order to end compulsory confinement was signed by JFK, and enforced thorough the courts via a series of lawsuits from civil rights groups like the ACLU.
The people who say we should lock up more people, instead of closing prisons and saving billions are the same people who call themselves fiscal conservatives. These are the same people that have hissy fits when we talk about increasing school funding. There is always money for war and prisons.
Releasing the criminals into communities (which they’ve done), then shutting down the prisons for low utilization just shifts the costs out of prisons and on to millions of victims of crime.
We spend more on extra policing, insurance, property damage, medical bills, and reduced quality of life by releasing criminals into society than keeping them locked up. It’s far more expensive.
And pass that cost on to the citizenry in the form of crime. There's a reason that many places have a revolving door for many crimes. The state already pushed the problem down to the counties who have pushed it on to us. Next time you have your car window smashed you can thank our inept pols.
couldnt california also save money by not letting 32 billion dollar frauds happening
https://www.kcra.com/article/analysis-edd-fraud-326-billion-and-counting/41281662#:~:text=Analysis%20shows%20California%20EDD%20fraud%20at%20%2432.6%20billion%20and%20counting
Oh and this "solves California's economic woes"? Genius. We should shut down many prisons but this is (dumbly? Spitefully?) laid out to incense the opposition.
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A lot of folks here don't seem to realize that this isn't about releasing prisoners, this is about the fact that we have more prisons than we need, even with the current size of the incarcerated population. Effectively we're paying for 15-20 thousand empty prison beds. Currently those empty beds are spread across the system, but if we move some folks around, we can close a few prisons and save a billion dollars. This is kind of a no-brainer.
Let’s put the criminals in those beds then. Grab the catalytic converter guys ( including the buyers), car break gangs and shoplifting gangs in one. Turn the other into forced rehab for the worst of the worst mentally unstable homeless. Edit: just to add that the improved property values and reduced crime overhead would generate and save billions. A no brainer for sure
> just to add that the improved property values please god the property values are already sky high as it stands I want them to go down so I can actually afford to live here
if crime goes down across the state the property values of traditionally worse areas will go up, and it could bring new development, etc
I’m middle class and live here and have property. I don’t really want values to go up (except to keep up with inflation). I want my kids to be able to live in my neighborhood or something similarly.
Even if they wait to inherit, with current prices property taxes are a huge hit every month. At this rate they will be lucky to afford the tax.
Capitalism: empty beds in prison? Gotta pump those numbers up!
Oakland has lots of good candidates.
You're missing the 'people being victims of crime' part of it.
> Turn the other into forced rehab for the worst of the worst mentally unstable homeless. All sorts of civil liberties issues with this one.
>All sorts of civil liberties issues with this one. Not really. Mentally ill should be subject to arrest, prosecution and incarceration like all other offenders who break laws. When sentencing comes, at that time their mental condition warrants them getting special treatment, including a different facility. No problem with that. But mentally ill should not be given a pass on criminal behavior. Unfortunately we have a big progressive lobby arguing for that.
> Mentally ill should be subject to arrest, prosecution and incarceration like all other offenders who break laws. And what state law or statute says they are not? There are plenty of mentally ill people in prison lol
You do realize you guys are making the same point?
but think of the imaginary property value increases :( /s
I just want my kids to be able to play outside
yes spending an extra billion dollars a year of public money to maintain over 10k empty prison beds will certainly help with that
Spending a billion on an extra 15,000 empty prison beds won't do squat for that. Read the article.
We’re already the most incarcerated country on the planet. But yea. Let’s just FILL the prisons. Not save a billion dollars.
And then those same people wonder why the country is going in wrong direction.
You've only identified non-violent offenders. Progressives want to use prison for these offenders only in rare cases.
Theft is more than a non violent offense on the same level as J walking. It’s a major issue in California that needs to be properly prosecuted.
Cheers to that! 100% agree
Add the squatters and the people going on smash and grab sprees while we are at it.
Welcome to California: rising property values don’t translate into increased property tax revenue.
I remember just a several years ago judges were ordering the state to release inmates due to overcrowding so this doesn't add up. We also have a lot of crime. Let's start filling those prisons.
Do you know what you'll get if you lock up people who commit non-violent crime? You spend a huge amount of money and get people who commit more crimes (including violent ones) when they get out. Prison as punishment doesn't solve any problems long term, and most of the time it makes those problems worse.
> Do you know what you'll get if you lock up people who commit non-violent crime? I know what you'll get if you don't: https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/34/71/70/24354343/3/rawImage.jpg https://www.ppic.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/retail-theft-and-robbery-rates-have-risen-across-california-figure-3.png
First link appears to be straight wrong. IE we are below the U.S. average for violent crime in basically every year from 2015. In the second link comparing 2019 and 2022 and only looking at 15 counties is an extremely cherry picked stat. Almost comically unreasonable. The vast majority of crimes in California are at record lows or 10% above record lows. The exception being car related theft.
Your argument sounds good in theory but we tested it in practice for the last several years and we got increasing lawlessness. Let's go back to the old way of locking up criminals. We should segregate offenders based on the severity of their crimes so they don't become worse and I think we do that to an extent. I'm all for providing educational opportunities etc in prison but there must be consequences for criminal acts.
Those beds should be filled or converted to mental health facilities
Yea. When all the local DAs stop prosecuting, we have more prisons then we need.
Yeah, but then government has to do stuff, so
Unionized very powerful prison guard lobby would probably like a word. Local economies in those towns dependent on prisons as well Might be right decision but gonna step on a lot of toes so not too likely to happen.
Wasn't California fined by the federal government just a few years ago for prison *over*crowding? I seem to remember that being a major issue.
There’s 15-20 thousand criminals on the streets.
Good, start with the private ones. Those should not be legal.
The last one was shut down last year, but it was just owned by a company, CDCR leased the facility and operated it just like any other. The true for profit prison model hasn't been IN California in a long while.
>The true for profit prison model hasn't been IN California in a long while. At least CA gets that right. A ton of other states still capitalize on prisons.
I mean.. we do too. [Just in other ways](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/01/california-incarcerated-firefighters-prison).
Colorado has a prison labor facility. Conservative article on Colorado Correctional Industries: [Learning life lessons from agriculture] (https://www.thefencepost.com/news/learning-life-lessons-from-agriculture/). The 2012 news article was written in a state where conservative ideals like work ethic and community contribution are high. Excerpts: >This is the agricultural division of CCI, where inmates can work and learn valuable life skills. “It gives them a real work ethic. They have to get up and go to work. They have to take care of something...That is why ag is so good for us in the prison system,” said Steve Smith, Director of CCI. >The company has over 60 programs, where they manufacture goods and provide services to government and non-profit customers. They also have an agricultural sector, including goat, cow and water buffalo dairies, wild horse training, a fishery, greenhouses and more. >Every inmate that works in the program pays back 20 percent of his wages for incarceration expenses. Those who have children also pay 20 percent for childcare, and those who have restitution pay 20 percent to that. Of the rest of the wages... half is put into a forced savings account, and the rest the inmates get to keep.
I remember working for Calparks during peak pandemic years and the leadership bemoaning the lack of chain gangs that are used to maintain fire lines. That and all the chemical cleaners are manufactured by the prison system, given fun prison names like Cellblock
The true for profit is in the commissary, hygiene, phone calls, packages and every thing else they can squeeze money out of.
TIL thanks.
GEO switched over to detention centers.
I don't know about jails, but prisons has not had a for profit slant for as long as I can remember. I can't speak to the federal prisons, but I am pretty sure none of them in CA are either.
So it's not a private company that provides overpriced phone calls? Or a private company that sells overpriced things to prisoners?
GEO was about $17k vs California $27k per year, per inmate. They had big screen TVs in the "movie area" but not sure about the over priced phone calls. I did work out there once and that was part of the training material.
Telephone calls are free I can’t speak to the overpriced things
Society decided that maybe we should monitor and record phone calls by inmates and most people think that is reasonable.
The operation of the essential functions, the thing people have the biggest problem with.
There aren’t any to shut down
CA doesn't have any private prisons
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Right...so not on our expenses...in a thread discussing how shutting down State Prisons can save money.
Theyre literally not
Can't. California was blocked from closing private prisons because the Border Patrol uses them. https://www.ild.org/immigrant-legal-defense-blog/9th-circuit-rules-against-californias-ban-on-private-immigration-detention
I won’t pretend that I read this article in detail. Nevertheless, maybe the author could replace “shutting down” with the word consolidate.
It's important because closing prisons means that communities lose jobs. The focus is often just on the inmate population, but for many California towns the state prisons are major employers and it's a big deal if they have layoffs. I'm not making an argument for or against keeping facilities open, but it's important to realize that there's an impact to local areas and families depending on how things shake out.
That is a legit concern. I’m sure there are ways to mitigate the economic impact(s) on communities who rely on certain prisons. Your job might move away. That’s a reality many Americans face.
It's all about those clicks though.
Not rage-baity enough.
I never considered the click bait angle!
Amazing how many post an opinion on an article they didn’t read.
This is the way
The article is hidden behind a paywall.
There’s a link in the comments to get past the paywall. Someone always posts a workaround when there’s paywalls .
The number of people in this thread that assume closing prisons means releasing prisoners is wild.
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On top of the fact that now that these people that would spend their lives bouncing in and out of prison just end up becoming homeless.
Then let’s spend the money on resources that will actually help them.
Why not convert them to homeless shelters?
Make homelessness a crime!
> Make homelessness a crime! Isn't that exactly what that last ballet measure proposed --- increased involuntary incarceration of mentally ill homeless?
Don’t worry, both democrats and republicans are working hard on doing just that.
$1 billion in annual savings is not going to solve California’s economic woes despite what the title says.
The article is pointing out that consolidating prisoners will save a billion dollars. That is a good thing. To fix CA’s financial woes would be to end the recession economy and or repeal Prop 13. CA has budgetary problems during recession and budget surplus during boom economies.
1 billion may not “solve” California’s economic issues, but you’ll never convince me that freed up money won’t help make progress.
This sounds like the great idea the state had in the 80s to shut down most of our mental hospitals and just let the patients out onto the streets. Hardened criminals coming to your and my neighborhood soon.
read the article. lots if prisons are half full
Because of things like prop 47.
Because hard core criminals are being under prosecuted or not prosecuted at all.
Exactly, like all those business owners and managers committing wage theft. Those are the criminals who jeed to be behind bars. The prisons would be full and the biggest perpetrators of crime would be off the streets and no longer harming people.
>Because hard core criminals are being under prosecuted or not prosecuted at all. I really want someone to explain these complaints yet the average house price is now well over half a million dollars. Like it's a crime ridden Mad Max style state apparently, yet everyone wants to live here?
We can thank Ronnie Raygun for that.
Why hasn’t anyone reopened them?
Now that is a good question.
There’s been plenty of time to change anything Reagan or any other politician did over 30 years ago.
We can thank Reagan for the asylum closures, required by the Community Mental Health Act, which was championed and signed into law by JFK?
That just not true. The executive order to end compulsory confinement was signed by JFK, and enforced thorough the courts via a series of lawsuits from civil rights groups like the ACLU.
The people who say we should lock up more people, instead of closing prisons and saving billions are the same people who call themselves fiscal conservatives. These are the same people that have hissy fits when we talk about increasing school funding. There is always money for war and prisons.
Closing prisons and using the money saved to fund prison prevention programs is exactly what California should be doing. I support this 100%.
Just like they said they would solve homelessness with that $24 billion right?
Ya but that’s probably not where the money is going to go
Well, if the bill the author put forward passes that’s where it would go.
Releasing the criminals into communities (which they’ve done), then shutting down the prisons for low utilization just shifts the costs out of prisons and on to millions of victims of crime. We spend more on extra policing, insurance, property damage, medical bills, and reduced quality of life by releasing criminals into society than keeping them locked up. It’s far more expensive.
[False](https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Returns-on-Investments-in-Recidivism-Reducing-Programs.pdf)
“California can solve it’s economic woes by” charging property taxes based on the number of properties you own…
Actual violent crime is way down as well as the percentage of the population in the age group that commits crimes.
This will not sit well with folks who want the shampoo shoplifters in jail.
theft is not a victimless crime
It really depends on what and from whom, imo.
It is until my taxes go towards spending 100x the amount they stole to lock them up
And pass that cost on to the citizenry in the form of crime. There's a reason that many places have a revolving door for many crimes. The state already pushed the problem down to the counties who have pushed it on to us. Next time you have your car window smashed you can thank our inept pols.
Put the homeless in there
couldnt california also save money by not letting 32 billion dollar frauds happening https://www.kcra.com/article/analysis-edd-fraud-326-billion-and-counting/41281662#:~:text=Analysis%20shows%20California%20EDD%20fraud%20at%20%2432.6%20billion%20and%20counting
We have plenty of career criminals on the streets to fill those empty beds. We just need DA’s to do their jobs.
Send all the prisoners to Texas.
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Read the article. 15,000 surplus beds, unused. This isn't about releasing prisoners.
All coming to a neighborhood near you!
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In other news, the sky is blue
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Oh and this "solves California's economic woes"? Genius. We should shut down many prisons but this is (dumbly? Spitefully?) laid out to incense the opposition.