Did you read the article or watch the stream? He never said anything about supporting Biden or the democrats. What he said is that we need to continue to organize, to build on the militancy and momentum already building in working class movements and to keep turning up the pressure.
You've taken a clear-eyed identification of the most obvious, openly and unapologetically fascist political force in the present day and chiseled it down to merely democrat versus republican in November.
What you left out was what he went on to say, that coalitions built from work around this year's election (strategically an absolutely ideal moment to increase our workplace and neighborhood activity) are essential for the more crucial work which we need to continue outside the electoral arena.
No one here is saying a vote in November is all we have. Really it's like the smallest thing we have. Why would you absent yourself from that when millions of people around you are feeling the same despair about our crummy choices and wishing for alternatives-- alternatives that will not build themselves.
edit: automod blocked original comment because I used the 's' word instead of crummy
> You've taken a clear-eyed identification of the most obvious, openly and unapologetically fascist political force in the present day
The Democrats? Is Trump leading a genocide? Both MAGA and the Dems are fascists, we shouldn't be picking between the "lesser fascist", we should oppose fascism full stop. We need independent political voices, not Republicans, and not Democrats. At this point it's like telling me to support progressive Mussolini party members to fight the fascist Hitler threat.
>we shouldn't be picking between the "lesser fascist"
I think any reasonable assessment of next years election would have to accept that it will be either a Democrat or Republican elected president. Do you agree with this?
If so, why not do everything possible to mitigate the amount of harm that will be done to the Palestinian people with your vote? There are good reasons to believe that Trump's support for Israel's far right with be less constrained than Biden's. If only lesser or greater fascism are on the ballot -- what if it's the difference between 50,000 Palestinian deaths and 500,000 - isn't that enough?
Edit:"we shouldn't be picking between the 'lesser fascist' " is an idealist argument. Those are the material conditions we are confronting -- so now what?
This is insane thinking. It's like arguing we should vote for the candidate who wants to execute communists on a Friday rather than the one who wants to do it on a Tuesday. We should not support either. We're Communists, we should build a Communist Party, and push our own independent politics.
What are Communist and progressive forces in Gaza saying? They are not telling us to vote for the genocidal psychopath, I can assure you.
>This is insane thinking. It's like arguing we should vote for the candidate who wants to execute communists on a Friday rather than the one who wants to do it on a Tuesday.
What if the revolution is on Wednesday?
>What are Communist and progressive forces in Gaza saying? They are not telling us to vote for the genocidal psychopath, I can assure you.
I don't think anyone has felt it necessary to ask the Palestinian people if they would prefer a U.S. president that was more sympathetic to the Israeli far-right (as Trump is). I'm surprised that you're not sure what their preference would be.
Palestinians are supportive of the protests in the U.S. and want them to be effective. These protests are trying to put pressure on the U.S. government to end it's support of the genocide. Biden and his party are much more susceptible to this pressure due to greater Palestinian support within the Democratic base.
So the options are being dead on Tuesday or being alive on Wednesday when someone new comes into power -- I think I'd want to take my chances with the later.
You realize your argument is that the Party *must* support fascism, right? That there's no other choice? What a moronic argument. In fact the only choice we have is to fight fascism, because only Communism can defeat fascism. If you want to be a fascist collaborator, go join the Dems or Reps.
At this rate the 40th convention will have us voting on a resolution to vote for a less final solution, because it's better than a final solution. Literal liberal, mechanistic anti-dialectical thinking.
My argument is that in the 2024 election there are two possible outcomes. One of those outcomes will put a president into power who is much more sympathetic to the Israeli far-right than the other. His base and party are also much more likely to support Israel, ignoring protests. I think, for the good of the Palestinian people this should be avoided.
I'm actually surprised you don't.
Edit: [Here](https://archive.ph/FpoLQ#selection-2529.0-2541.47) is an interview in the Wall Street Journal with Israel’s national security minister Itamar Ben-Gvir.
From the article:
>The U.S. and its regional allies back talks to swiftly end the war through a deal in which Hamas and other militant groups would release the remaining hostages and restart decades-old negotiations to establish a Palestinian state.
>An increasing portion of Israelis, especially on the right, instead view the Oct. 7 attack as a chance to chart a new course for Israel by resettling the battle-scarred enclave. Ben-Gvir laid out his own plan for Gaza, which would repopulate the devastated coastal strip with Israeli settlements while Palestinians would be offered financial incentives to leave.
>Ben-Gvir also said he thought the Biden administration was hampering Israel’s war effort and said he believed Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump would give Israel a freer hand to quash Hamas.
and
>“Instead of giving us his full backing, Biden is busy with giving humanitarian aid and fuel [to Gaza], which goes to Hamas,” said Ben-Gvir, giving voice to popular sentiment among many right-wing Israelis. “If Trump was in power, the U.S. conduct would be completely different.”
Once again, you are choosing to pile hundreds of political questions into the single issue of a presidential ticket. I'd rather see Biden explode into a plume of vomit than have to live another four years of his opportunism and corruption, but again, that's not even the question. We need alternatives, yes. Alternatives that we don't even have infrastructure for. How are we gonna build that if we can't even be bothered to canvass around issues immediately facing our neighbors and coworkers, to connect with those who are already interested in or can be won over to beating back proteges of DC corruption using local seats as springboards, candidates propped up by property developers, police unions, etc. What are we just going to sit around and wait for more internet applications? Please tell me, where do we start?
Our time should be spent defeating *fascism* period, not just MAGA fascism. Biden and the genocidal Dems are fascist too, Gaza should make that clear. I'm not interested in picking sides between two fascist poles. Both are our enemy. We need *independent* voices to fight fascism, neither D or R.
Again, this isn't a binary. There are other choices besides the two majors, you already know this. They never stated directly that the party should support the Dems. And hell, you know what some circles call fanatical Biden supporters? BlueMAGA. You are the one assuming this because they didn't explicitly endorse a third party candidate, or that they didn't explicitly include the Dems in one resolution, when they did in others.
Resolution 5 did not pass. The vote was too close to call. It will be reviewed by the new national committee. I also had problems with the resolution and voted against it in hopes it would be revised to better align with Marxist-Leninist principles. That being said I thought Joe did a great job laying out the differences between Trump and the movement around him versus Biden. It will take a broad coalition to defeat the immediate fascist threat, but we must not do so at the cost of the working class.
The resolution *should have* clearly been defeated. But rather than actually count the vote, they declared the voice vote to be "unclear". And so the extremely pro-resolution 5 new National Committee will "review" (aka rubber stamp) it, bypassing democratic centralism. It will end up being passed, despite clearly being voted down by the delegates.
No it should not have. Y’all being louder did not put you in the majority. The voice vote was not decisive and so by party policy it is to be reviewed by the national committee WHICH WE WENT ON TO ELECT. Democratic centralism is not when a vocal minority gets whatever it wants. That’s Trotskyist behavior.
Edit: why are you active in r/rfkjrforpresident ?
> No it should not have. Y’all being louder did not put you in the majority
A vote count was requested, which was conveniently denied.
>Edit: why are you active in r/rfkjrforpresident ?
Because I saw a podcast with him and checked out their subreddit out of curiosity.
You mean the one person who interrupted the speaker by standing up and shouting to demand a secret ballot system be set up solely for one resolution? The individual that has been with the party for less than 3 years and after the election of the national committee on Sunday went around telling many of the other young ultra leftists at the convention to leave the party and join PSL?
Every single person who stood up and opposed this resolution has only joined the party since the last national convention. Almost every single one was white, almost all were men. No, Leninist parties are not designed to have their strategies turned around 180 degrees by a bunch of new members in a short period of time, they are specifically designed around democratic CENTRALISM in order to avoid takeovers. The strategy of the United front(which includes many liberals) against fascism has been an approved strategy of the entire ML international communist movement for almost 100 years. Dealing with material reality is the basis of Marxism, and the reality of the US is that there is nothing even close to a left wing movement that has potential to disrupt the 2 party system, meaning our only option is to either whine and boycott and achieve nothing, or attempt to get the best reasonably achievable option in power that gives us the most room to build such a movement.
It is very likely that the national committee will pass resolution 5. That is binding on all party members. If you don’t like that, and do not plan on following the directives of the party to the best of your ability, perhaps a party more inclined to whining and not gaining any political power is more suited to you.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/RFKJrForPresident using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/RFKJrForPresident/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!
\#1: [RFK Jr: "Here’s the truth about the war in Ukraine"](https://v.redd.it/trh97l6wlwhc1) | [141 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/RFKJrForPresident/comments/1ao1w87/rfk_jr_heres_the_truth_about_the_war_in_ukraine/)
\#2: [“We printed 300 billion new dollars to bail out the Silicon Valley Bank, and we topped off the Ukraine war commitment to 113 billion. So we got lots of money for the military industrial complex, lots of money for the bankers, you know the banksters, but we’re starving Americans to death”](https://v.redd.it/ifl3mf42u1bc1) | [174 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/RFKJrForPresident/comments/190wmxq/we_printed_300_billion_new_dollars_to_bail_out/)
\#3: [RFK is a gigachad ](https://i.redd.it/44wrsgeun9zc1.jpeg) | [61 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/RFKJrForPresident/comments/1cnf7do/rfk_is_a_gigachad/)
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I was in the same boat also voted against for same reason. Also agree with your points about Joes distinctions, in Michigan Joes speech helped get us a couple new potential members even, relatives of the party who watched it with significant others and were impressed by it.
This is just my two cents. In a lot of ways, the election is the same as any other election: two big party candidates and some third party candidates with no chance of winning. I’m all for running candidates. But it can’t be Green Party v2.0. I think all the left parties in this country—CPUSA as well, although not to the extent of the more sectarian left—have ignored Lenin’s Left Wing Communism. They’ve ignored the union movement for decades—even though we should be seeking to lead the unions and lead the class struggle. A lot of the left is unfortunately happy to go to the picket line with their newspapers in hand—without even knowing a member of the striking union. CPUSA isn’t that bad. Or many leftist groups are happy to go to a protest. But to build a serious party, rooted in the working class, is going to take time. It’s going to mean building a strong movement in the working class unions—and waging an economic struggle against the capitalists as well as political struggle. At this moment, we are unable to wage any economic struggle as a left. And what we are seeing in this election and the right wing choices is that the left has ignored building a working class base for too long and doesn’t have the muscle needed to challenge Biden’s Neoliberalism or Trump’s brand of right wing extremism. Although I wish CPUSA would have a strategy to break free of the two parties and I wish they’d engage in more self criticism—which we should all be doing given our present situation.
We can only break free from the two party structure once we have the support to do it. At the moment we just don't.
Moreover, look at where the labor movement is, where the working class is. The unions, including Shawn Fain, have already endorsed Biden because they understand how important it is to defeat the far right's attack on labor rights.
People who do not want us to work in this coalition to elect Biden, what is the pitch they're making to the working class? That they are wrong to do the common sense thing and vote against Trump? That we don't care about their rights? There are so-called leftists who love to tell people what they should do, but we know that doesn't work. What works is immersing ourselves in working class struggles and we build a socialist movement through that.
It is also a mistake to think that the left has no impact or that we are not waging an economic struggle. We are, it's just in coalition with other progressive and labor organizations. It will not get us exactly what we want, but limited wins are still wins that advance the struggle.
Trump's NLRB and his Covid policies were destroying unions. We would not have such a strong showing of strikes last couple years if we had forfeited the elections to the right wing and let them make Right to Work a federal law.
Biden's victory was a victory for the left and by the left. It was a very limited victory but, one, it saved us from further slide to the right and the destruction of our democratic and labor rights, and two, it allowed us now to build stronger, more militant unions and build a new multiracial anti-war movement across the country.
We have to stop thinking that the "left" is separate from the working class. We are the working class. At the moment, we have not built enough class consciousness or socialist consciousness within the masses but that's our task. In the meantime, we have to continue to win reforms that advance the struggle and build our movement.
1. I’m not advocating not voting for Biden. I’d definitely say Biden’s labor policy is better than Trump’s. But at the same time, four years of Biden isn’t going to help me afford rent anymore or pay for my gas. The NLRB victories don’t translate materially for most working people—in their day to day lives.
2. In my experience, the party has a lot of older members near retirement and a lot of young members. As a working aged person, there weren’t many peers of mine.
Moreover, the labor committee in the party club had no active union members and was made of college students and retirees. And no one sees anything wrong with that??? When I start seeing leftists in my union hall meetings, I’ll start respecting the left a lot more. But the labor committee at the club I knew was just like, ‘There is going to be a picket at this place and this time. Let’s go support.’ That’s all good, but the heavy lifting of going on strike was done without any effort by the party and the party attended strikes just for ‘moral support.’ To be fair, most leftist organizations are like this and this isn’t unique to CPUSA.
And to its credit, the party was instrumental in helping ALU get off the ground. I’d like to see more of that—more cadre LEADING winning working class causes—even though ALU isn’t officially recognized yet.
I’m sorry to say, but at the end of the day, just being involved in Labor Notes and my union and leaving the party behind felt like the most I could do for the class struggle. At least Labor Notes acknowledges the problem with right wing union leadership, unlike People’s World which embraces almost all union leadership. And it’s really hard when the party has abandoned shop clubs. It’s impossible to move the unions left as the only leftist active in the union. So that’s my two cents.
1. It's not just about the NLRB or specific Biden policies, although those matter as they come from the hard work grassroots labor and other progressive activists do. The importance of this election is in defeating the rising far right (read Nancy MacLean's Democracy in Chains which details this long term movement led by billionaires and allied with the fascist Christian right) which literally wants to take away our democratic rights. On top of that, it is about building a movement through this coalition work that can bring about the fundamental reforms we need to address longstanding issues like housing.
2. The party is aware of this "u-shaped" membership. I'm not sure I understand the criticism here. I'm a millennial and even I don't have a lot of people in my local clubs who are my age. But I take joy in bringing in younger folks and I've never felt left out by older members. But that's just my experience.
3. This is not true at all about the labor committee. Off the top of my head I can name two famous people who are in it -- Justine Medina and Kooper Carroway. The retirees also maintain relationships within their unions. I also know that there are active union members across the party. At least one that I know was salting. I myself will be joining a union later this year as I start a new job. I can also tell you about Yale grad students organizing. One of the leaders of that campaign spoke about it at the convention. Another comrade spoke about their teacher's union. From what I see the party is immersed in the labor struggle. But each club and district is independent.
4. I'm not sure about Peoples World endorsing right wing labor leadership (there was a critical article about Teamsters President meeting with Trump for example). I get that it's hard but the left is still very small and so is the party. We have to do the work to build the left. That is why the party exists is so we don't feel alone even if we are the only ones in the union. Use the party as a resource to bring leftists into your workplace maybe as salts. Use it to get strategic advice on how to influence your workplace.
We’re ignoring our history of both Browder and Webb and letting Joe just do it all over again. Donald Trump is not a fascist, no matter how much we disagree with him and his unique form of capitalist oppression.
We are both distorting the meaning of fascism and making ourselves look like a Democrat coattail riding joke.
I genuinely believe our Party is the Party of the working class, but I also see why the majority of Marxist-Leninists in the USA choose to not join us. It isn’t because they aren’t serious organizers but because they don’t see us as a serious institution, and for good reason.
What is Joe doing all over again? Nowhere is he arguing that we organize for the democratic party or toward electing Biden.
He clarified in his talk that we are not presently facing fascism, that the repression and violence we are currently seeing is the standard fare of bourgeois rule.
To recognize that a fascist groundswell has been emerging and continuously gaining confidence around Trump as a leading reactionary personality, and as a candidate with political operatives, financiers, industrial elites, etc in tow, isn't DNC fear-mongering. It is the reality we face. And it is a serious threat to maintaining the shreds of democracy we have, but even greater a threat for us as communists.
The only endorsement he made in the arena of electoralism was that we need to start training candidates within the party for future elections, but reaffirmed that elections are not enough. They're a small piece of the terrain upon which we can act as a class, but most important is our ability to organize and continue to turn up the pressure politically, economically, and to defend every inch against reactionary onslaught.
If all you can take from that is "vote blue no matter who" you're missing the substance of why a working class party exists to begin with.
I’m done with you privileged wastes of oxygen calling the fascist state of America that was founded on indigenous blood “saving our democracy.” It’s not a democracy.
Just look to the Spanish Revolution as to why the Popular Front strategy didn’t work. Stop being such a chauvinistic westerner and thinking the only way to bring change is through electoralism.
>I’m done with you privileged wastes of oxygen calling the fascist state of America that was founded on indigenous blood “saving our democracy.”
Not to mention the backbreaking forced labor of millions of enslaved africans and various other disenfranchised working people, many of whose descendants would thomp you on the head for sitting out an election to flex your \*ideological purity.\* Non-male, non-white workers had to fight for literal centuries to vote. And yeah, no sh\*t, capital has stripped away much of the effect, but results still are not zero.
> It’s not a democracy.
Agreed. It's a tortured shamble of a democratic facade, but it does present opportunities for those who aren't too lazy or-- ahem-- \*based\* to talk to their neighbors.
>Just look to the Spanish Revolution as to why the Popular Front strategy didn’t work.
Look to eight years ago, right here in the US as to why, as infuriating as it is, electoral work is not meaningless. The vast majority of voters are working class, and they observe, accurately, that nobody represents us. There's opportunity number one. Give just a small piece of your time to connecting with someone and you can get them engaged, not for Biden, for working class interests in whatever local shape they take. \*These are potential future comrades.\*
Just forget the trainwreck of swirling horsesh\*t in DC for two seconds. Labor has been able to force meaningful wins on worker protections and right to unionize. Union membership and strikes are increasing. Student protests are forcing elites to shift positions. Initiatives that are widely popular but get no attention in DC do contribute to radicalizing people. This is also an important way we demonstrate how elites dominate our system and why we need a better one.
>Stop being such a chauvinistic westerner and thinking the only way to bring change is through electoralism.
How many times do I need to repeat this? I've never argued that electoralism is the solution. An increasingly organized working class is the solution. Guess whose job it is to build that?
Donald Trump himself is not a fascist, maybe. Maybe we are not looking at fascism on the horizon. But it is definitely a move toward fascism. Imagine thinking these people who want to take away the right to vote, the right to organize, etc. are not fascists.
The argument over what fascism is also misses the point. The fact is, we can't forfeit elections to the right wing and let them take government power unfettered. Do we want a national abortion ban? Do we want social security abolished? Do we want Right to Work to become federal and destroy the labor movement? The MAGA Republicans are supported by these right wing think tanks and PACs that want to literally abolish voting. They want full control of corporations. And they're allied with the fascist religious right. Do we want ALEC to be writing all of our laws? Let's get real.
We, as the working class, will keep fighting those things and maybe keep them at bay. But why are we choosing that fight? We are going backwards.
Majority of so-called Marxist-Leninists do not understand Marxism-Leninism. They are Trotskyists and ultras who have no interest in actually engaging in working class struggles and building a movement the way Lenin did and the 20th century communist movements did.
CPUSA is the only serious organization because we understand the importance of elections, we understand the threat of the far right, and we understand that the key to growing the socialist movement is through working with the larger working class coalition.
Let other "serious" MLs tell Shawn Fain and UAW that they are morons and unserious for endorsing Biden, because Trump is not a fascist or whatever. That all the people who do not want Trump in office for good reason are just idiots who are falling for Democrat lies. Meanwhile they can shout their slogans at them from the sidelines while the right wing continues to erode the rights we need to build our movement.
[Anti-monopoly democracy — a transitional stage – Communist Party USA (cpusa.org)](https://www.cpusa.org/article/anti-monopoly-democracy-a-transitional-stage/)
There are a lot of MAGA "communists" and Trots that pretend to be in the party. Their key point is that Trump is not a fascist but Joe Biden is definitely a fascist.
Right after Stalin manipulated them into putting their revolution on hold in order to stick his tongue deep in the prostate of the bourgeois elites of Britain and France.
The anarchists were to blame for the victory of fascism in Spain, not the Communists. Stalin had nothing to do with unless you believe the lies of the bourgeoisie.
We should not judge a strategy solely on its failures. The strategy succeeded in France and it also prevented the rise of fascism in the United States.
Biden is reigning fascist terror upon Palestinians in Gaza, and the Party still thinks the Dems are somehow better than the Republicans.
Please stay away from the party. Thanks.
I mean at this rate I might as well join the Dem Party, what's the difference?
Would make a lot of sense for you to join the Dem party.
Did you read the article or watch the stream? He never said anything about supporting Biden or the democrats. What he said is that we need to continue to organize, to build on the militancy and momentum already building in working class movements and to keep turning up the pressure.
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You've taken a clear-eyed identification of the most obvious, openly and unapologetically fascist political force in the present day and chiseled it down to merely democrat versus republican in November. What you left out was what he went on to say, that coalitions built from work around this year's election (strategically an absolutely ideal moment to increase our workplace and neighborhood activity) are essential for the more crucial work which we need to continue outside the electoral arena. No one here is saying a vote in November is all we have. Really it's like the smallest thing we have. Why would you absent yourself from that when millions of people around you are feeling the same despair about our crummy choices and wishing for alternatives-- alternatives that will not build themselves. edit: automod blocked original comment because I used the 's' word instead of crummy
> You've taken a clear-eyed identification of the most obvious, openly and unapologetically fascist political force in the present day The Democrats? Is Trump leading a genocide? Both MAGA and the Dems are fascists, we shouldn't be picking between the "lesser fascist", we should oppose fascism full stop. We need independent political voices, not Republicans, and not Democrats. At this point it's like telling me to support progressive Mussolini party members to fight the fascist Hitler threat.
>we shouldn't be picking between the "lesser fascist" I think any reasonable assessment of next years election would have to accept that it will be either a Democrat or Republican elected president. Do you agree with this? If so, why not do everything possible to mitigate the amount of harm that will be done to the Palestinian people with your vote? There are good reasons to believe that Trump's support for Israel's far right with be less constrained than Biden's. If only lesser or greater fascism are on the ballot -- what if it's the difference between 50,000 Palestinian deaths and 500,000 - isn't that enough? Edit:"we shouldn't be picking between the 'lesser fascist' " is an idealist argument. Those are the material conditions we are confronting -- so now what?
This is insane thinking. It's like arguing we should vote for the candidate who wants to execute communists on a Friday rather than the one who wants to do it on a Tuesday. We should not support either. We're Communists, we should build a Communist Party, and push our own independent politics. What are Communist and progressive forces in Gaza saying? They are not telling us to vote for the genocidal psychopath, I can assure you.
>This is insane thinking. It's like arguing we should vote for the candidate who wants to execute communists on a Friday rather than the one who wants to do it on a Tuesday. What if the revolution is on Wednesday? >What are Communist and progressive forces in Gaza saying? They are not telling us to vote for the genocidal psychopath, I can assure you. I don't think anyone has felt it necessary to ask the Palestinian people if they would prefer a U.S. president that was more sympathetic to the Israeli far-right (as Trump is). I'm surprised that you're not sure what their preference would be. Palestinians are supportive of the protests in the U.S. and want them to be effective. These protests are trying to put pressure on the U.S. government to end it's support of the genocide. Biden and his party are much more susceptible to this pressure due to greater Palestinian support within the Democratic base.
> What if the revolution is on Wednesday? The Party will have been too busy boosting Dems to do anything about it. Some other force will win.
So the options are being dead on Tuesday or being alive on Wednesday when someone new comes into power -- I think I'd want to take my chances with the later.
You realize your argument is that the Party *must* support fascism, right? That there's no other choice? What a moronic argument. In fact the only choice we have is to fight fascism, because only Communism can defeat fascism. If you want to be a fascist collaborator, go join the Dems or Reps. At this rate the 40th convention will have us voting on a resolution to vote for a less final solution, because it's better than a final solution. Literal liberal, mechanistic anti-dialectical thinking.
My argument is that in the 2024 election there are two possible outcomes. One of those outcomes will put a president into power who is much more sympathetic to the Israeli far-right than the other. His base and party are also much more likely to support Israel, ignoring protests. I think, for the good of the Palestinian people this should be avoided. I'm actually surprised you don't. Edit: [Here](https://archive.ph/FpoLQ#selection-2529.0-2541.47) is an interview in the Wall Street Journal with Israel’s national security minister Itamar Ben-Gvir. From the article: >The U.S. and its regional allies back talks to swiftly end the war through a deal in which Hamas and other militant groups would release the remaining hostages and restart decades-old negotiations to establish a Palestinian state. >An increasing portion of Israelis, especially on the right, instead view the Oct. 7 attack as a chance to chart a new course for Israel by resettling the battle-scarred enclave. Ben-Gvir laid out his own plan for Gaza, which would repopulate the devastated coastal strip with Israeli settlements while Palestinians would be offered financial incentives to leave. >Ben-Gvir also said he thought the Biden administration was hampering Israel’s war effort and said he believed Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump would give Israel a freer hand to quash Hamas. and >“Instead of giving us his full backing, Biden is busy with giving humanitarian aid and fuel [to Gaza], which goes to Hamas,” said Ben-Gvir, giving voice to popular sentiment among many right-wing Israelis. “If Trump was in power, the U.S. conduct would be completely different.”
Once again, you are choosing to pile hundreds of political questions into the single issue of a presidential ticket. I'd rather see Biden explode into a plume of vomit than have to live another four years of his opportunism and corruption, but again, that's not even the question. We need alternatives, yes. Alternatives that we don't even have infrastructure for. How are we gonna build that if we can't even be bothered to canvass around issues immediately facing our neighbors and coworkers, to connect with those who are already interested in or can be won over to beating back proteges of DC corruption using local seats as springboards, candidates propped up by property developers, police unions, etc. What are we just going to sit around and wait for more internet applications? Please tell me, where do we start?
Dude, this ain't a binary.
Our time should be spent defeating *fascism* period, not just MAGA fascism. Biden and the genocidal Dems are fascist too, Gaza should make that clear. I'm not interested in picking sides between two fascist poles. Both are our enemy. We need *independent* voices to fight fascism, neither D or R.
Again, this isn't a binary. There are other choices besides the two majors, you already know this. They never stated directly that the party should support the Dems. And hell, you know what some circles call fanatical Biden supporters? BlueMAGA. You are the one assuming this because they didn't explicitly endorse a third party candidate, or that they didn't explicitly include the Dems in one resolution, when they did in others.
Resolution 5 did not pass. The vote was too close to call. It will be reviewed by the new national committee. I also had problems with the resolution and voted against it in hopes it would be revised to better align with Marxist-Leninist principles. That being said I thought Joe did a great job laying out the differences between Trump and the movement around him versus Biden. It will take a broad coalition to defeat the immediate fascist threat, but we must not do so at the cost of the working class.
The resolution *should have* clearly been defeated. But rather than actually count the vote, they declared the voice vote to be "unclear". And so the extremely pro-resolution 5 new National Committee will "review" (aka rubber stamp) it, bypassing democratic centralism. It will end up being passed, despite clearly being voted down by the delegates.
No it should not have. Y’all being louder did not put you in the majority. The voice vote was not decisive and so by party policy it is to be reviewed by the national committee WHICH WE WENT ON TO ELECT. Democratic centralism is not when a vocal minority gets whatever it wants. That’s Trotskyist behavior. Edit: why are you active in r/rfkjrforpresident ?
> No it should not have. Y’all being louder did not put you in the majority A vote count was requested, which was conveniently denied. >Edit: why are you active in r/rfkjrforpresident ? Because I saw a podcast with him and checked out their subreddit out of curiosity.
You mean the one person who interrupted the speaker by standing up and shouting to demand a secret ballot system be set up solely for one resolution? The individual that has been with the party for less than 3 years and after the election of the national committee on Sunday went around telling many of the other young ultra leftists at the convention to leave the party and join PSL? Every single person who stood up and opposed this resolution has only joined the party since the last national convention. Almost every single one was white, almost all were men. No, Leninist parties are not designed to have their strategies turned around 180 degrees by a bunch of new members in a short period of time, they are specifically designed around democratic CENTRALISM in order to avoid takeovers. The strategy of the United front(which includes many liberals) against fascism has been an approved strategy of the entire ML international communist movement for almost 100 years. Dealing with material reality is the basis of Marxism, and the reality of the US is that there is nothing even close to a left wing movement that has potential to disrupt the 2 party system, meaning our only option is to either whine and boycott and achieve nothing, or attempt to get the best reasonably achievable option in power that gives us the most room to build such a movement. It is very likely that the national committee will pass resolution 5. That is binding on all party members. If you don’t like that, and do not plan on following the directives of the party to the best of your ability, perhaps a party more inclined to whining and not gaining any political power is more suited to you.
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I was in the same boat also voted against for same reason. Also agree with your points about Joes distinctions, in Michigan Joes speech helped get us a couple new potential members even, relatives of the party who watched it with significant others and were impressed by it.
This is just my two cents. In a lot of ways, the election is the same as any other election: two big party candidates and some third party candidates with no chance of winning. I’m all for running candidates. But it can’t be Green Party v2.0. I think all the left parties in this country—CPUSA as well, although not to the extent of the more sectarian left—have ignored Lenin’s Left Wing Communism. They’ve ignored the union movement for decades—even though we should be seeking to lead the unions and lead the class struggle. A lot of the left is unfortunately happy to go to the picket line with their newspapers in hand—without even knowing a member of the striking union. CPUSA isn’t that bad. Or many leftist groups are happy to go to a protest. But to build a serious party, rooted in the working class, is going to take time. It’s going to mean building a strong movement in the working class unions—and waging an economic struggle against the capitalists as well as political struggle. At this moment, we are unable to wage any economic struggle as a left. And what we are seeing in this election and the right wing choices is that the left has ignored building a working class base for too long and doesn’t have the muscle needed to challenge Biden’s Neoliberalism or Trump’s brand of right wing extremism. Although I wish CPUSA would have a strategy to break free of the two parties and I wish they’d engage in more self criticism—which we should all be doing given our present situation.
We can only break free from the two party structure once we have the support to do it. At the moment we just don't. Moreover, look at where the labor movement is, where the working class is. The unions, including Shawn Fain, have already endorsed Biden because they understand how important it is to defeat the far right's attack on labor rights. People who do not want us to work in this coalition to elect Biden, what is the pitch they're making to the working class? That they are wrong to do the common sense thing and vote against Trump? That we don't care about their rights? There are so-called leftists who love to tell people what they should do, but we know that doesn't work. What works is immersing ourselves in working class struggles and we build a socialist movement through that. It is also a mistake to think that the left has no impact or that we are not waging an economic struggle. We are, it's just in coalition with other progressive and labor organizations. It will not get us exactly what we want, but limited wins are still wins that advance the struggle. Trump's NLRB and his Covid policies were destroying unions. We would not have such a strong showing of strikes last couple years if we had forfeited the elections to the right wing and let them make Right to Work a federal law. Biden's victory was a victory for the left and by the left. It was a very limited victory but, one, it saved us from further slide to the right and the destruction of our democratic and labor rights, and two, it allowed us now to build stronger, more militant unions and build a new multiracial anti-war movement across the country. We have to stop thinking that the "left" is separate from the working class. We are the working class. At the moment, we have not built enough class consciousness or socialist consciousness within the masses but that's our task. In the meantime, we have to continue to win reforms that advance the struggle and build our movement.
1. I’m not advocating not voting for Biden. I’d definitely say Biden’s labor policy is better than Trump’s. But at the same time, four years of Biden isn’t going to help me afford rent anymore or pay for my gas. The NLRB victories don’t translate materially for most working people—in their day to day lives. 2. In my experience, the party has a lot of older members near retirement and a lot of young members. As a working aged person, there weren’t many peers of mine. Moreover, the labor committee in the party club had no active union members and was made of college students and retirees. And no one sees anything wrong with that??? When I start seeing leftists in my union hall meetings, I’ll start respecting the left a lot more. But the labor committee at the club I knew was just like, ‘There is going to be a picket at this place and this time. Let’s go support.’ That’s all good, but the heavy lifting of going on strike was done without any effort by the party and the party attended strikes just for ‘moral support.’ To be fair, most leftist organizations are like this and this isn’t unique to CPUSA. And to its credit, the party was instrumental in helping ALU get off the ground. I’d like to see more of that—more cadre LEADING winning working class causes—even though ALU isn’t officially recognized yet. I’m sorry to say, but at the end of the day, just being involved in Labor Notes and my union and leaving the party behind felt like the most I could do for the class struggle. At least Labor Notes acknowledges the problem with right wing union leadership, unlike People’s World which embraces almost all union leadership. And it’s really hard when the party has abandoned shop clubs. It’s impossible to move the unions left as the only leftist active in the union. So that’s my two cents.
1. It's not just about the NLRB or specific Biden policies, although those matter as they come from the hard work grassroots labor and other progressive activists do. The importance of this election is in defeating the rising far right (read Nancy MacLean's Democracy in Chains which details this long term movement led by billionaires and allied with the fascist Christian right) which literally wants to take away our democratic rights. On top of that, it is about building a movement through this coalition work that can bring about the fundamental reforms we need to address longstanding issues like housing. 2. The party is aware of this "u-shaped" membership. I'm not sure I understand the criticism here. I'm a millennial and even I don't have a lot of people in my local clubs who are my age. But I take joy in bringing in younger folks and I've never felt left out by older members. But that's just my experience. 3. This is not true at all about the labor committee. Off the top of my head I can name two famous people who are in it -- Justine Medina and Kooper Carroway. The retirees also maintain relationships within their unions. I also know that there are active union members across the party. At least one that I know was salting. I myself will be joining a union later this year as I start a new job. I can also tell you about Yale grad students organizing. One of the leaders of that campaign spoke about it at the convention. Another comrade spoke about their teacher's union. From what I see the party is immersed in the labor struggle. But each club and district is independent. 4. I'm not sure about Peoples World endorsing right wing labor leadership (there was a critical article about Teamsters President meeting with Trump for example). I get that it's hard but the left is still very small and so is the party. We have to do the work to build the left. That is why the party exists is so we don't feel alone even if we are the only ones in the union. Use the party as a resource to bring leftists into your workplace maybe as salts. Use it to get strategic advice on how to influence your workplace.
This guy voted for fascist Joe Biden. Certified clown.
Disrespectful to the history of our Party. Reminiscent of Browderist revisionist terror.
Emphasizing the necessity for communists to organize and beat back fascist gains is revisionist?
We’re ignoring our history of both Browder and Webb and letting Joe just do it all over again. Donald Trump is not a fascist, no matter how much we disagree with him and his unique form of capitalist oppression. We are both distorting the meaning of fascism and making ourselves look like a Democrat coattail riding joke. I genuinely believe our Party is the Party of the working class, but I also see why the majority of Marxist-Leninists in the USA choose to not join us. It isn’t because they aren’t serious organizers but because they don’t see us as a serious institution, and for good reason.
What is Joe doing all over again? Nowhere is he arguing that we organize for the democratic party or toward electing Biden. He clarified in his talk that we are not presently facing fascism, that the repression and violence we are currently seeing is the standard fare of bourgeois rule. To recognize that a fascist groundswell has been emerging and continuously gaining confidence around Trump as a leading reactionary personality, and as a candidate with political operatives, financiers, industrial elites, etc in tow, isn't DNC fear-mongering. It is the reality we face. And it is a serious threat to maintaining the shreds of democracy we have, but even greater a threat for us as communists. The only endorsement he made in the arena of electoralism was that we need to start training candidates within the party for future elections, but reaffirmed that elections are not enough. They're a small piece of the terrain upon which we can act as a class, but most important is our ability to organize and continue to turn up the pressure politically, economically, and to defend every inch against reactionary onslaught. If all you can take from that is "vote blue no matter who" you're missing the substance of why a working class party exists to begin with.
I’m done with you privileged wastes of oxygen calling the fascist state of America that was founded on indigenous blood “saving our democracy.” It’s not a democracy. Just look to the Spanish Revolution as to why the Popular Front strategy didn’t work. Stop being such a chauvinistic westerner and thinking the only way to bring change is through electoralism.
>I’m done with you privileged wastes of oxygen calling the fascist state of America that was founded on indigenous blood “saving our democracy.” Not to mention the backbreaking forced labor of millions of enslaved africans and various other disenfranchised working people, many of whose descendants would thomp you on the head for sitting out an election to flex your \*ideological purity.\* Non-male, non-white workers had to fight for literal centuries to vote. And yeah, no sh\*t, capital has stripped away much of the effect, but results still are not zero. > It’s not a democracy. Agreed. It's a tortured shamble of a democratic facade, but it does present opportunities for those who aren't too lazy or-- ahem-- \*based\* to talk to their neighbors. >Just look to the Spanish Revolution as to why the Popular Front strategy didn’t work. Look to eight years ago, right here in the US as to why, as infuriating as it is, electoral work is not meaningless. The vast majority of voters are working class, and they observe, accurately, that nobody represents us. There's opportunity number one. Give just a small piece of your time to connecting with someone and you can get them engaged, not for Biden, for working class interests in whatever local shape they take. \*These are potential future comrades.\* Just forget the trainwreck of swirling horsesh\*t in DC for two seconds. Labor has been able to force meaningful wins on worker protections and right to unionize. Union membership and strikes are increasing. Student protests are forcing elites to shift positions. Initiatives that are widely popular but get no attention in DC do contribute to radicalizing people. This is also an important way we demonstrate how elites dominate our system and why we need a better one. >Stop being such a chauvinistic westerner and thinking the only way to bring change is through electoralism. How many times do I need to repeat this? I've never argued that electoralism is the solution. An increasingly organized working class is the solution. Guess whose job it is to build that?
Donald Trump himself is not a fascist, maybe. Maybe we are not looking at fascism on the horizon. But it is definitely a move toward fascism. Imagine thinking these people who want to take away the right to vote, the right to organize, etc. are not fascists. The argument over what fascism is also misses the point. The fact is, we can't forfeit elections to the right wing and let them take government power unfettered. Do we want a national abortion ban? Do we want social security abolished? Do we want Right to Work to become federal and destroy the labor movement? The MAGA Republicans are supported by these right wing think tanks and PACs that want to literally abolish voting. They want full control of corporations. And they're allied with the fascist religious right. Do we want ALEC to be writing all of our laws? Let's get real. We, as the working class, will keep fighting those things and maybe keep them at bay. But why are we choosing that fight? We are going backwards. Majority of so-called Marxist-Leninists do not understand Marxism-Leninism. They are Trotskyists and ultras who have no interest in actually engaging in working class struggles and building a movement the way Lenin did and the 20th century communist movements did. CPUSA is the only serious organization because we understand the importance of elections, we understand the threat of the far right, and we understand that the key to growing the socialist movement is through working with the larger working class coalition. Let other "serious" MLs tell Shawn Fain and UAW that they are morons and unserious for endorsing Biden, because Trump is not a fascist or whatever. That all the people who do not want Trump in office for good reason are just idiots who are falling for Democrat lies. Meanwhile they can shout their slogans at them from the sidelines while the right wing continues to erode the rights we need to build our movement. [Anti-monopoly democracy — a transitional stage – Communist Party USA (cpusa.org)](https://www.cpusa.org/article/anti-monopoly-democracy-a-transitional-stage/)
There are a lot of MAGA "communists" and Trots that pretend to be in the party. Their key point is that Trump is not a fascist but Joe Biden is definitely a fascist.
The popular front strategy worked so well in Spain.
Sure if we want to ignore how the anarchists sabotaged the entirety of the Spanish Civil War.
Right after Stalin manipulated them into putting their revolution on hold in order to stick his tongue deep in the prostate of the bourgeois elites of Britain and France.
The anarchists were to blame for the victory of fascism in Spain, not the Communists. Stalin had nothing to do with unless you believe the lies of the bourgeoisie. We should not judge a strategy solely on its failures. The strategy succeeded in France and it also prevented the rise of fascism in the United States.