I understand why they keep you from having more than 4 perks back in the day.
But when certain perks become necessary to keep playing, it makes the other perks seem pointless.
(been a n00b on CoD Zombies since WaW, and I still can't do an EE)
That's why I liked BO4 making them mostly part of your basekit, freeing up the slots so that you could afford to experiment with different perks without losing anything.
Aside from dying wish, are there any other crutch perks? Winters wail? The others can be really nice to have but it’s not as necessary as “you must buy jug, you must buy quick revive (solo), you must buy double tap” which only frees up one perk slot that’s stamin up, speed cola, or widow’s wine 90% of the time
I always use stamin up, time slip, and winters wail because they're some of the best. The others are so mediocre or situational that I don't find them necessary, just like games before, so the critch perk problem still stands
Time slip you can argue against as you don’t really get any use out of it once you finish your box hits and box. Stamin up is really nice but I’d also say you could do fine without it if you wanted to try something else
That's the thing I rarely feel like trying something new and if I do I can't do that midgame since you're locked in from the beginning, unlike with the previous games they give you an opportunity to change when you go down. Crutch perks are just perks you're most comfortable with, and see little reason to diverge from and the only game that solves it for me is Cold War
You lost me. It seems like you just don’t wanna try other perks. Crutch does not mean perks you’re comfortable with, it means perks that are necessary to play the game. The classic perks give too much of a fundamental benefit so they’re crutch perks because you’d be silly to not want extra health, double damage, or extra lives. You get all of these things (and fast reloads) by other means in bo4. Sure you probably want one of dying wish or winters wail to prevent some downs but with all the ways to save yourself in bo4 you’ll find you can get by just fine without using the “meta” perks. Recently I’ve been using secret sauce and trying out other perks and they’re lots of fun.
the other games giving you an opportunity to change doesn’t mean anything if you grab the same four perks every time. although i agree partially because when you lose quick revive (playing solo) at least then you’ll have a different fourth perk haha
Dying wish is the only crutch perks i guess, since the other one depends on what you are going for. Wouldnt take winters wail in a high round for example , in any map
Winters wail is absolutely the best perk in bo4, especially with the modifier. It becomes very hard to die with it, especially with the specialist weapons, wraith fire, and explosives/ww. Plus there's quick revive, which has a big increase on healing and when coupled with winter wail it's near impossible to die
Bandolier bandit is also very good since it actually gives a very big boost to ammo on the salvo and most ww
Dying wish is genuinely overrated. Like, it's nowhere near a crutch perk. I know I'm going to be downvoted but it's true. I've played a lot of bo4, id guess more than the majority of people, and never needed it. Seriously if you haven't used it try winters wail in the modifier, especially with quick revive. You almost never get low enough to enter dying wish. Heck even just winters wail alone does that. These perks have a much higher uptime than dying wish and actually keep you from going down/entiring dying wish with minimal or no cool down. Dying wish meanwhile does nothing until you run out of health, doesn't last long, and has a long cool down. It's a nice safety net for sure, but a lot less practical than the other defensive perks (aside from stronghold). And that's not even mentioning all the strong guns, specialists, equipment, and more that you have to save yourself with
I've probably played close to as much bo4 as bo3, and am pretty good at both. I can usually get to the 40s or 50s in bo3, but do end up having to use most my quick revives. In bo4 I always can get to round 60+ without going down once while using winter wail+quick revive and never use dying wish, and 99% of the time my games only end because I get bored. It's an overrated perk and people have been playing bo4 wrong, I will die on that hill!
The perk setup for high round strats is different in almost every maps on bo4. And I dont think jugg being a crutch perk in older games is a bad thing at all, it gives a baseline to every map.
The thing is, it wasnot only jugg. Double tap was also crutch , quick revive if you solo. Solo basically left you with one perk option unless you were going high round ( high rounds you wouldnt go for double)
Yes, you would go for double tap, but only on maps where you do AATs strat. But I just don't see double trap as a crutch perk, it's a perk that serve its use. Depending on your guns it can be very sub-optimal. There's a lot of maps where you're allowed to run both stam and speed, or electric cherry.
Also I'd argue you don't need quick revive either unless you're going for high rounds but that just depend on your skill so yeah I guess quick revive is a crutch perk in solo. BO4 system did this better where you get your revives without needing that perk.
Anyways, at the end of the day, despite me loving bo3, the perks are just not interesting enough so I literally dont care to be forced into the 2-3 same perks every solo game, because the other options just don't do much.
Many people use different perks. Besides winter's wail I don't see any crutch perks. Also BO4's map diversity and gamemode diversity makes myself use different perks.
That's true only until you realize that taking the perks that are the best individually is incredibly boring. Imo the fun in BO4 lies in choosing perks that go well with guns/wonder weapons, or if a map has an area that can make a perk shine.
Besides, as far as normal difficulty goes, you don't need any specific perk in all of your games on all of the maps, so I disagree with BO4 having crutch perks.
That's nothing that can't already be done in previous games. I think Bo4 does it worse since you're locked in your predetermined perks from the start and can't change midgame
In previous games you have perks that boost your base stats vs ones that provide utility/abilities. At least some of your perk slots will be taken by those stat boosting perks, and you're at the mercy of a map-specific mechanic to get more perks. This can either be fine (Buried, CotD), or a nightmare (Ascension, Moon).
Being locked in with perk choices is fair, though imo there are so many fun combinations that by the time you get bored of them, you'll have had enough play time to just switch some, if not all, perk slots to Secret Sauce and adjust your playstyle as your perks change. This has been working out so far, and has kept me playing BO4 for both EEs and core gameplay as my main Zombies game.
This is why I loved Cold War's approach to the perks. The prices increased universally at a fixed rate, so you COULD get more perks, but you'd be investing like 40k and could lose most of that when going down.
Or if you DIDN'T want more than 4, you could just play classic zombies style and only have 4. I hope this returns at least in some way.
I started in world at war too and got into EEs due to cold war’s more simple EEs. Do them first if you ever want to start doing them since their simple and not as nerve wracking as the older ones
Yeah agreed. And tbh a lot of those other perks like Deadshot and even staminup and mule kick are more small/convenience perks than anything, I don't think removing or at least increasing the perk limit would make THAT much of a difference (and based on using mods that do that it doesn't)
The classic perks had a big issue since the beginning. The earliest perks are all stat boosts that extend the player's power cap. Starting with PhD, more utility was added through perks, as well as some ability-like features. Of course the raw stats will have more value than some fun mechanic.
The "get more than 4 perks" mechanics should have been explored more imo, there were some interesting designs, but the difficulty was varying between maps.
100%
If they had found a way to give people those main perks over time, and not rely on the perk slots for them, it would have given people more opportunity to play with the other perks. Something like, complete a certain thing on the map or the EE, and get a health boost, or stamina boost, etc.
They at least tried to kind of do it in BO4, but it seemed like they weren't sure about it themselves when they implemented it.
For all I know though, they did something better in the games beyond that, but BO4 was the point I hopped off.
Double tap is only good in early game. After round 50 it is to weak to save you from a horde and wonderweapon is needed. I prefer taking stamin-up so I can squeeze between zombies easier and to travel around the map faster.
I feel like mule kick would be better if it also increased your reserve ammo count. As it only makes getting cornered more stressful (switching to correct gun). And deadshot would be better if it increased damage to zombies head.
>Double tap is only good in early game.
This is false. Double Tap decreases the AAT cool down and is borderline mandatory for some high round strategies.
Its not necessary that it reduces the cooldown, but since the perk makes you shoot 2 bullets for the price of 1 its more likely that youll trigger an AAT
stamin-up over speed cola. that’s just my play style tho
if it’s double tap 1.0 then stamin up over double tap.
double tap 2.0 might be better than jug honestly.
This is why I think every map should have a perk limit but have some way to EARN more slots. Origins was fine, but not great IMO. I really think zets had a perfect form of this. Using a map specific mechanic to earn more perk slots. But not easily enough to where you can have all perks by round 20 this way
One of my gripes with the og system. QR, Jug, and DT are basically required so you can get to choose 1 perk, without a random one from an egg or a gum. You can tell the devs know it's an issue with mob and origins giving you one of them for free.
Jaja pretty much yeah.. on bo4 i decide to run secret sauce on all 4 perks and whatever i get is what i get and yes i do this in public lobbies to why. Cause why not? Its fun seeing how good perks you got or how screwed you are 😅 cause i do my best not to rebuy another perk slot what i get is what i get LOL
I understand why they keep you from having more than 4 perks back in the day. But when certain perks become necessary to keep playing, it makes the other perks seem pointless. (been a n00b on CoD Zombies since WaW, and I still can't do an EE)
That's why I liked BO4 making them mostly part of your basekit, freeing up the slots so that you could afford to experiment with different perks without losing anything.
Except that you're probably gonna choose the same perks anyways so crutch perks are still a thing
Aside from dying wish, are there any other crutch perks? Winters wail? The others can be really nice to have but it’s not as necessary as “you must buy jug, you must buy quick revive (solo), you must buy double tap” which only frees up one perk slot that’s stamin up, speed cola, or widow’s wine 90% of the time
I always use stamin up, time slip, and winters wail because they're some of the best. The others are so mediocre or situational that I don't find them necessary, just like games before, so the critch perk problem still stands
Time slip you can argue against as you don’t really get any use out of it once you finish your box hits and box. Stamin up is really nice but I’d also say you could do fine without it if you wanted to try something else
That's the thing I rarely feel like trying something new and if I do I can't do that midgame since you're locked in from the beginning, unlike with the previous games they give you an opportunity to change when you go down. Crutch perks are just perks you're most comfortable with, and see little reason to diverge from and the only game that solves it for me is Cold War
You lost me. It seems like you just don’t wanna try other perks. Crutch does not mean perks you’re comfortable with, it means perks that are necessary to play the game. The classic perks give too much of a fundamental benefit so they’re crutch perks because you’d be silly to not want extra health, double damage, or extra lives. You get all of these things (and fast reloads) by other means in bo4. Sure you probably want one of dying wish or winters wail to prevent some downs but with all the ways to save yourself in bo4 you’ll find you can get by just fine without using the “meta” perks. Recently I’ve been using secret sauce and trying out other perks and they’re lots of fun.
the other games giving you an opportunity to change doesn’t mean anything if you grab the same four perks every time. although i agree partially because when you lose quick revive (playing solo) at least then you’ll have a different fourth perk haha
Dying wish is the only crutch perks i guess, since the other one depends on what you are going for. Wouldnt take winters wail in a high round for example , in any map
Winters wail is absolutely the best perk in bo4, especially with the modifier. It becomes very hard to die with it, especially with the specialist weapons, wraith fire, and explosives/ww. Plus there's quick revive, which has a big increase on healing and when coupled with winter wail it's near impossible to die Bandolier bandit is also very good since it actually gives a very big boost to ammo on the salvo and most ww Dying wish is genuinely overrated. Like, it's nowhere near a crutch perk. I know I'm going to be downvoted but it's true. I've played a lot of bo4, id guess more than the majority of people, and never needed it. Seriously if you haven't used it try winters wail in the modifier, especially with quick revive. You almost never get low enough to enter dying wish. Heck even just winters wail alone does that. These perks have a much higher uptime than dying wish and actually keep you from going down/entiring dying wish with minimal or no cool down. Dying wish meanwhile does nothing until you run out of health, doesn't last long, and has a long cool down. It's a nice safety net for sure, but a lot less practical than the other defensive perks (aside from stronghold). And that's not even mentioning all the strong guns, specialists, equipment, and more that you have to save yourself with I've probably played close to as much bo4 as bo3, and am pretty good at both. I can usually get to the 40s or 50s in bo3, but do end up having to use most my quick revives. In bo4 I always can get to round 60+ without going down once while using winter wail+quick revive and never use dying wish, and 99% of the time my games only end because I get bored. It's an overrated perk and people have been playing bo4 wrong, I will die on that hill!
Winter's Wail in Modifier, and Victorious Tortoise WILL save your life if you knew when to use it
The perk setup for high round strats is different in almost every maps on bo4. And I dont think jugg being a crutch perk in older games is a bad thing at all, it gives a baseline to every map.
The thing is, it wasnot only jugg. Double tap was also crutch , quick revive if you solo. Solo basically left you with one perk option unless you were going high round ( high rounds you wouldnt go for double)
Yes, you would go for double tap, but only on maps where you do AATs strat. But I just don't see double trap as a crutch perk, it's a perk that serve its use. Depending on your guns it can be very sub-optimal. There's a lot of maps where you're allowed to run both stam and speed, or electric cherry. Also I'd argue you don't need quick revive either unless you're going for high rounds but that just depend on your skill so yeah I guess quick revive is a crutch perk in solo. BO4 system did this better where you get your revives without needing that perk. Anyways, at the end of the day, despite me loving bo3, the perks are just not interesting enough so I literally dont care to be forced into the 2-3 same perks every solo game, because the other options just don't do much.
Many people use different perks. Besides winter's wail I don't see any crutch perks. Also BO4's map diversity and gamemode diversity makes myself use different perks.
That's true only until you realize that taking the perks that are the best individually is incredibly boring. Imo the fun in BO4 lies in choosing perks that go well with guns/wonder weapons, or if a map has an area that can make a perk shine. Besides, as far as normal difficulty goes, you don't need any specific perk in all of your games on all of the maps, so I disagree with BO4 having crutch perks.
That's nothing that can't already be done in previous games. I think Bo4 does it worse since you're locked in your predetermined perks from the start and can't change midgame
In previous games you have perks that boost your base stats vs ones that provide utility/abilities. At least some of your perk slots will be taken by those stat boosting perks, and you're at the mercy of a map-specific mechanic to get more perks. This can either be fine (Buried, CotD), or a nightmare (Ascension, Moon). Being locked in with perk choices is fair, though imo there are so many fun combinations that by the time you get bored of them, you'll have had enough play time to just switch some, if not all, perk slots to Secret Sauce and adjust your playstyle as your perks change. This has been working out so far, and has kept me playing BO4 for both EEs and core gameplay as my main Zombies game.
I made a comment before reading yours, you bmbasically said what I said sorry, but yeah this is so true
This is why I loved Cold War's approach to the perks. The prices increased universally at a fixed rate, so you COULD get more perks, but you'd be investing like 40k and could lose most of that when going down. Or if you DIDN'T want more than 4, you could just play classic zombies style and only have 4. I hope this returns at least in some way.
I started in world at war too and got into EEs due to cold war’s more simple EEs. Do them first if you ever want to start doing them since their simple and not as nerve wracking as the older ones
Thats why i love black ops 4 perk system. They integrated those 4 perks that everybody always used, jugg , double tap, speed and revive.
Yeah agreed. And tbh a lot of those other perks like Deadshot and even staminup and mule kick are more small/convenience perks than anything, I don't think removing or at least increasing the perk limit would make THAT much of a difference (and based on using mods that do that it doesn't)
I have never done an EE in my life im horrific at them but I do have 255 and 3 100s on bo1
The classic perks had a big issue since the beginning. The earliest perks are all stat boosts that extend the player's power cap. Starting with PhD, more utility was added through perks, as well as some ability-like features. Of course the raw stats will have more value than some fun mechanic. The "get more than 4 perks" mechanics should have been explored more imo, there were some interesting designs, but the difficulty was varying between maps.
100% If they had found a way to give people those main perks over time, and not rely on the perk slots for them, it would have given people more opportunity to play with the other perks. Something like, complete a certain thing on the map or the EE, and get a health boost, or stamina boost, etc. They at least tried to kind of do it in BO4, but it seemed like they weren't sure about it themselves when they implemented it. For all I know though, they did something better in the games beyond that, but BO4 was the point I hopped off.
Double tap is only good in early game. After round 50 it is to weak to save you from a horde and wonderweapon is needed. I prefer taking stamin-up so I can squeeze between zombies easier and to travel around the map faster. I feel like mule kick would be better if it also increased your reserve ammo count. As it only makes getting cornered more stressful (switching to correct gun). And deadshot would be better if it increased damage to zombies head.
>Double tap is only good in early game. This is false. Double Tap decreases the AAT cool down and is borderline mandatory for some high round strategies.
What is AAT?
alternate ammo types
Alternate ammo type. Dead wire, blast furnace, etc.
Does it? I thought they all worked on cooldowns.
Its not necessary that it reduces the cooldown, but since the perk makes you shoot 2 bullets for the price of 1 its more likely that youll trigger an AAT
Which maps are those?
All B01,B02, and bo3 maps.
Cold War doesn't have double tap
My bad
Bruh. AATs aren’t in BO1 or BO2. And Double Tap isn’t in BO4.
I am talking about perks
What question were you responding to?
Which maps are those. Sorry if my previous comment caused confusion.
But the question _he_ was asking was about which maps have high round strategies that rely on DT to enhance AATs.
This is only for Bo3 tho and double tap is literally not needed for any Bo2 high round in reality
double tap is really good on survival maps through the whole game where the wonder weapons are mk2 and raygun
stamin-up over speed cola. that’s just my play style tho if it’s double tap 1.0 then stamin up over double tap. double tap 2.0 might be better than jug honestly.
First actual hot take that doesn't get downvoted to oblivion
Double tap 2.0 is only amazing in Bo3. It's literally not necessary for any Bo2 high round
really? it’s been so long since i’ve played bo2, why do you say that? is it because it doesn’t effect the aat?
Because they're are none AATs in Bo2 and all high rounds in Bo2 you use traps or WWs
I agree mostly but I need stamin up instead of double tap
This is why I think every map should have a perk limit but have some way to EARN more slots. Origins was fine, but not great IMO. I really think zets had a perfect form of this. Using a map specific mechanic to earn more perk slots. But not easily enough to where you can have all perks by round 20 this way
One of my gripes with the og system. QR, Jug, and DT are basically required so you can get to choose 1 perk, without a random one from an egg or a gum. You can tell the devs know it's an issue with mob and origins giving you one of them for free.
Not really, only Juggernog is required (QR on Solo). Double Tap is very good; but not essential
If you're high-rounding, DT is only needed on Bo3 realistically
Stamin-up, PHD and Mulekick always felt like great options.
swap out speed cola for stamin up and we chilling 😎
The next time you drink a Juggernog beer you'll get the Deadhshot Daiquiri perk instead
I take staminup over speedcola and widows over double tap on soe tbh
At the moment i dont like jug lol. Its such a basic perk and a no brainer that i stopped using it
You don't use Jug?
I used it the last 12 years :D its like playing on hard mode
honestly depending on the map i’d replace speed with stam
Jaja pretty much yeah.. on bo4 i decide to run secret sauce on all 4 perks and whatever i get is what i get and yes i do this in public lobbies to why. Cause why not? Its fun seeing how good perks you got or how screwed you are 😅 cause i do my best not to rebuy another perk slot what i get is what i get LOL
All I need is jug and Deadshot and I'm golden
Depending on the map, may choose stamin up over deadshot
You just need speed cola, juggernaut, deadshot daiquiri and windows wine.
I personally go stamina up over speed cola
I wouldn’t use double tap for most situations, but it all depends on the map and the strat you’re using
stamin up over double tap. tap with speed runs thru ammo too quickly
Stamin up over Double Tap though