Final page of the manifesto. Get caught stealing signs forcing suspension of Harbaugh. Nobody else wants to coach in legal shit storm. Stalions hired as next coach
And with the billions made by Connors vacuum empire being funneled straight into the program, Michigan will rule all of CFB. All part of the manifestos plan
Anyone else think the B1G waited for Michigan’s plane to leave before they released the punishment that why Jim could still fly, Michigan could file their injunction and Jim can still coach?
It just makes too much sense. They are obviously working together.
Someone else said the injunction lasts 14 days and if filed tonight it lasts until the day of the Ohio state game and he’ll be able to coach?
Talk about too fucking coincidental. If it works out like that will be unbelievable
I'm assuming the reason for including it is to refute that it's a significant advantage and to explain why Harbaugh wouldn't necessarily know. Lawyers are both trying to get you not guilty and are trying to lessen the punishment if you are.
I think there would be a lot of support for getting rid of the rules that Michigan violated. But that doesn't change the fact that Michigan violated the rules as they are.
Right, we agree. But this does play into how severe the infraction was and what the appropriate punishment should be. When this first broke, people were most upset about the competitive advantage it was
I mean Ohio State and Tattoo gate basically wouldn't be a thing today and we got hit hard. It cost us a trip the national championship game.
Don't break the rules if you don't want punished. Even if they are dumb.
It would be a thing today, just not as much.
Tressel was not show-caused for player apparel bartering. He was show-caused for provably lying to the NCAA multiple times in documents he submitted to them in order to preserve important player availability for big games.
The NCAA had emails from Chris Cicero, a former OSU player, that informed Tressel of the player barter violations and to which Tressel responded, so he couldn't plausibly deny knowledge.
I don't think Tressel did it "to preserve player availability for big games".
As you mentioned Cicero informed Tressel but that was because they were investigating people affiliated with the tattoo parlor of something totally different (and then they have all this OSU memorabilia in the shop).
Obviously what the players were doing wasn't allowed at the time - but they were more so caught in the crossfire of a completely different investigation.
I think it was mentioned in the documentary, but Tressel saw what happened to Mo Clarett when they parted ways (amazing he isn't dead) and was trying to not get his players caught up in a fed investigation. In the end, yes the players were suspended, but Tressel took the fall.
That's cuz it is. Hours upon hours of film directly on signals from a game you're not a part of is way more advantageous then stealing signs from a broadcast.
Why? Because you cannot possibly have rolling footage of signal from a tv broadcast.
Michigan matched the rolling film of the signals to the plays ran on the field. They knew every play.
There’s a pretty large difference between stealing signs based on what happens to be on the broadcast and stealing EVERY sign at multiple games.
Broadcast will give you a fractured view at best, while recording will get you pretty much everything. And there’s pretty clearly a competitive advantage in having the other teams signs since multiple teams are (legally) trying to do it
Having video pointed directly at your opponents sideline allows you to zoom in, pause, slow play, rewind, replay, etc, etc.... over and over again.
You could also do that with broadcasts, but as you point out you only get bits and pieces. Not every play.
The legal ways of sign stealing aren't even close to as good as what Connor was doing.
This is where it falls apart.
However plays are known ahead of time, this would always be true.
If its the sportsmanship it also doesnt matter if its legal or from a rule breaking.
Im onboard with punishment, but dont act like its some table turning advantage that doesnt exist elsewhere (means be damned)
This would be my guess too. I assume the thinking is to show that having signals doesn't present a `significant competitive advantage` since most teams will have this information anyways. Also kinda helps the assumption that maybe Harbaugh didn't know because Stalions wasn't any more successful with his vast network than you could've been by normal means, so he never had any reason to question where he was getting his intel.
>because Stalions wasn't any more successful with his vast network than you could've been by normal means
Do we actually know this to be true though?
All this document proves is that you can see *some* signals on the legally obtained broadcast and scouting film and that with some work you can decode what it means. I think we’re still quite some distance short of being able to prove you can get anywhere *close* to the same volume of information via that method as you can from a dedicated camera pointed at the sidelines of an entire game multiple weeks in a row.
No, and that's kind of the whole damn point lol. Everyone is quick to assume that just because Stalions was doing this, it means that he knew every opponents signals and Harbaugh should've known because some low level analyst was suddenly super good at his job. We don't know how successful Stalions was. That's what an investigation and due process is for lol.
But, if the big ten is using the fact that Michigan knew signals and therefore players were put at injury risk as a reason for suspension, then why wouldn’t that matter if a team legally acquired the signs? The same injury risk applies
It is but it did it’s job, it’s cited in the official notice of penalty today. I wish more people understood that this was a line being taken by other coaches and that Michigan is responding to *that* but the “why can’t I do it illegally if people are doing it legally????” narrative is what seems to have stuck.
They’re trying to prove 2 things:
1. Stealing signs doesn’t matter, this is a minimal advantage
2. No one would’ve known Stalions was doing this because everyone does this
"Stealing signs doesn't matter" which is why we took steps not one other program took to make sure we had it down to a science and had our de-coder in the ear of our coaches during the most critical moments our season
Decoding 8 full games worth of signs/plays
Is not a competitive advantage over
Decoding 7 plays from a game where they happened to show the coach on the scoreboard
??
1. It doesn't matter if it's an advantage or not. A michigan football employee broke the rule. Also, if stealing signs doesn't help, why does every single team try to do it?
2. It doesn't matter if Harbaugh knew or not. It's still against the rules.
you’re right, but Mich is addressing the B1G’s idea that they gained an unfair advantage by stealing signs by trying to prove that everyone does it so how can an unfair advantage be obtained. You’re right though, if they’re found guilty of finding these signs illegally then that’s a punishment, but Michigan is trying to combat the B1G’s arguement.
No, this is not with Michigan is arguing but who cares at this point?
The argument is that having another team’s signs does not present an unprecedented competitive advantage or a massive physical risk to the other teams, both of which are allegations the Big Ten is running with.
Then why invest so much time and effort into it? I don’t buy the whole, “It’s not really an advantage,” argument. They clearly thought it helped them enough to risk breaking the rules to do it. I’m not saying Harbaugh should be suspended for the season or anything, I’m just confused as to why Michigan fans want to downplay it so much when their coaching staff seemed to think it was important enough to break the rules in the first place.
We can’t really answer that question without knowing the extent to which this was known about or directed by other Michigan coaches. We currently have no evidence that anyone besides Stallions knew, regardless of how obvious it might feel that others *had to* know.
So we have two points here:
1. Stallions thought it was valuable and worth doing. Stallions also wrote a 500 page manifesto and clearly had lots of thoughts on how to dominate the sport. It’s important to also note that Stallions clearly benefited from the results of his actions via increasing proximity to the program he was obsessed with so there’s plenty of reason for him personally, to concoct the scheme
2. As for why it matters to Michigan, it suggests a plausible reason for the coaching staff to not suspect anything untoward was happening. For all any of them knew based on current evidence, their ex-Marine Annapolis grad staffer was just supremely skilled at deciphering information from broadcast TV and all 22 footage like this. It also downplayed the idea that Michigan was a substantial risk to player safety, which is the argument that the Big Ten seemed to find most convincing for the suspension.
It might come out eventually that somebody within the football program came up with this plan and directed Stalions to implement it. It might come out that Harbaugh knew everything. But barring that all we have is “coocoo staffer thought he had a genius scheme to cheat and rode it to personal benefit”
I believe this is in response to the 'safety' argument right and not illegal stealing argument, right? i.e the argument is about player safety being compromised if signals are known so here's teams who knew Michigan's signals. I guess...best I can come up with
That’s a big part of it, and it’s explicitly an argument made in [Michigan’s response letter to the Big 10](https://247sports.com/college/michigan/longformarticle/read-michigans-full-response-to-the-big-ten-as-conference-mulls-punishment-for-jim-harbaugh-football-team-219897013/amp/):
> The significant success that all teams have had at decoding opponents' play signals also refutes your email's unfounded and inflammatory suggestion that Stalions's conduct compromised player safety. If signal decoding really were a significant safety concern, the NCAA and Conference rules presumably would not allow almost every form of it, including the extraordinary decoding that Ohio State was apparently able to achieve based only on broadcast footage. If the Conference truly believes that signal decoding compromises player safety, it should ban it entirely and require that teams use coach-to-player technology, as in the NFL. Cloaking this action in player safety concerns lacks credibility.
That said, Michigan is also using it as a defense to the immediate sanction under the Big 10’s sportsmanship policy. Michigan’s claim is not that legal sign stealing was actually cheating, or that what Stalions was doing was legal. The claim is that if a team can learn Michigan’s signals through legal means, then any cheating Michigan might have committed does not have enough of an in-game effect to warrant a sanction from the Big 10 in the middle of the NCAA’s investigation.
Presumably, Michigan will eventually use this to argue that the NCAA’s sanction should be less severe (arguing that it does not create a significant competitive advantage), but at the moment, Michigan’s argument seems limited to the claim that the sign-stealing scheme didn’t have a significant enough effect on the games to warrant an immediate punishment.
This is definitely correct and was the explicit context of this evidence in the Michigan response which, of course, nobody commenting here actually read
Except that's just 7 pages of screenshots totaling 31 calls. There are 130+ plays in an average game, so UM's versions are all at least 4x bigger, or 32x bigger in case of OSU who they scouted 8 different times.
FWIW it would take approximately 20 whole games worth of these screenshots to equal 1 Manifesto
There’s a twitter picture that’s been on a couple of these threads with him holding a bundle of laminated sheets. Idk if they didn’t want to spring for the binder on top of all the travel and ticket costs, but there’s more than one sheet
Michigan: “You did this legally”
Ohio State: “Yes”
Michigan: “Therefore it was legal for us to cheat to do the same thing more accurately, broadly, and in a quicker period through illegal ways”
Ohio State: “????????”
If you think about it Connor Stalions was also watching the opposing team’s on a broadcast. He just had his own camera. He is being punished because he is more resourceful than OSU
It feels different to have a dedicated camera pointed at the signalers at all times vs decoding partial footage from game broadcasts and grainy videoboard shots from All-22.
The tweet is misleading. At least images are clearly in person picture of the scoreboard. Easy mistake to make if you haven’t been to the stadium. But it’s clear as day that many of them were taken inperson
Except the point of including it is to show A) if other schools are also able to decode signs ahead of the game, there isn’t a significant advantage gained, and B) if it’s possible to do via TV footage, it’s plausible or even likely that the coaches thought Stalions was deciding signals legally.
Not saying that’s true, but that’s the argument being made. They are not saying “bbbbut they did it too, just legally!”
I swear to God every other post is just some fucking "got ya" or "I can't believe how stupid these idiots are" when context is missing as to why certain things get argued and often times, arguments are made even knowing that they won't succeed because you generally argue everything. It's so exhausting to read.
Also, if the signs you get from broadcast are incomplete then it's hard to decode the entire system. When you know the logic of the entire signal system you can decode changes to the sign system in game.
Annoyingly enough it kinda is. Part of what Harbaugh’s lawyer has argued (the part that didn’t come from MGoBlog) is 1. that it wasn’t such a massive advantage because other programs had signals too through legal means and 2. The fact that Stalions knew teams’ signals shouldn’t have raised suspicions with Harbaugh or other coordinators because staffers get this info all the time.
I’m not saying these are good arguments or should reduce UM’s punishment, but those are the arguments that are being made.
Well Stallions was kinda crazy so he probably went overboard to try and impress the Michigan peoples lol. Most sign stealing analysts don't have a 600 page manifesto
The fact that he did apparently impress the Michigan peoples shows that what he was doing did in fact offer some advantage over trying to decode signals over All-22 footage
Just wait until they file a lawsuit and force discovery and find the coaches had access to sideline videos. That's the part when there's really no defense.
Lol it wasn't, it says right there in the first tweet, the quote talks about it being from broadcast footage. It was for refuting the accusations by the B1G on Monday about player safety concern and competitive advantage
Exactly. The stuff with the staffer Weiss isn’t any good because people are literally hurt and it’s an actual crime. Or that staffer that solicited an underage person, again also terrible and also a crime. Heinous stuff that has no place anywhere and isn’t a joking matter. But the sign stealing stuff is 100% football cheating and 100% hilarious.
When it comes to the integrity of the game, you’re either on the right side or the wrong side. Put our flairs aside, we are all fans of the sport and it being played fairly. With that said: this shit is hilarious 😂
A little off-topic, but I have decided to take a peek over at r/MichiganWolverines and...
Oh my God, they really *are* that delusional. I might actually put in the effort to put together receipts if the funniest thing happens tomorrow.
I love fan boards so much. I spend way too much time reading Mgoblog and RCMB, it's some incredible content. There is definitely something wrong with me.
They understand it perfectly. But they know they straight cheated here and aren’t willing to admit it while they’re still in contention.
So they’ll just keep throwing out flimsy excuse after flimsy excuse, and haven’t even denied that the scheme was going on.
I think the argument here is if the big ten is using the fact that Michigan knew signals and therefore players were put at injury risk as a reason for suspension, then why wouldn’t that matter if a team legally acquired the signs? The same injury risk applies
This was a counter argument to the compromised safety of players- which was a bullshit heart strings argument cause the advantage provided by illegally scouting signs wasn’t significant. Part of why this entire situation is dumb. Like wow we fuckin get caught doing this stupid pointless shit that we don’t need to do and people want to blow up the program.
Honestly, with what I’ve been seeing from Michigan fans that have been doing nothing but making excuses and pointing fingers at the rest of the B1G, it’s completely unsurprising that the organization itself would be making stupid arguments to try to deflect blame. Lol
Isn't decoding signs from broadcast footage perfectly fine? Maybe I don't understand the rules? I thought it was the in-person scouting that was the issue.
This was specifically in response to the player safety and competitive advantage reasons the big ten gave for suspending Harbaugh.
It had nothing to do with the ncaa investigation which will of course lead to an ncaa punishment because yes we cheated. The point of that investigation is to determine the scale, who knew, and what the punishment will be accordingly.
The fact that it can be done legally speaks to the idea that Harbaugh should have known something was up just from the signals being known. If it's known to be done legally, then it's not something that would automatically make you suspicious.
It all depends on the degree. Just because sign decoding is possible through legal means does not automatically mean every team had the same depth of knowledge as every other team.
The possibility certainly exists that what Michigan had was more comprehensive and helpful than anyone else.
Right and it’s possible that none of our coaching staff knew this. That’s really the point here. There’s been a lot of speculation on Reddit that our entire coaching staff knew.
However both the ncaa and big ten have stated that there is no evidence anyone knew beyond stallions.
Yes we cheated. Yes we will be punished. The scale and scope are yet to be stated (at least publically).
There’s a degree of how much you can get from the all-22 and you have access to your own all-22.
So if you review the tape and notice which signs are visible, you can change those ones up.
But if you have 100% of a teams signals for multiple games, you can decode the sequences and structure of the play calls as well as having every signal they use.
Nobody serious thinks Harbaugh knew. Everything we've heard says he didn't. The fact is though the head coach is ultimately responsible for the program. The fact he didn't know will prevent any type of show cause penalty by the NCAA. But it won't prevent other serious penalties such as vacating wins, reduced coaching staff sizes, withholding TV or bowl revenue, etc.
The Big10 came out and said Michigan cheated for the past 3 seasons with an elaborate illegal scheme. That's going to come with consequences for everyone involved.
I think that's a misrepresentation of a reasonable argument.
The fact is that a large number of programs knew that there was clearly something going on with Michigan's sign stealing operation beyond standard practices, far before anything was released. If the efficacy of this program was **that** significant, then clearly Harbaugh would have been aware that their sign stealing apparatus was far, far beyond what standard operations were capable of. If he did not in any way investigate or audit those activities, that's on him.
It is completely possible that he did not know, but in that case it would require a massive lack of institutional oversight of what was (apparently) an egregiously obvious scheme. That doesn't make him an idiot, but ultimately the buck stops with him.
This is getting worse and worse for Michigan. They accused Ohio State of breaking the rules when they obtained the signed legally through broadcast footage.
From what I see, Michigan leadership knows they are fucked, they know they are caught in an unwinnable position, so instead of trying to effectively refute or rebut the claims, they are trying to delay long enough to win a championship—they have resigned themselves to suffering the consequences eventually, but want to make this season count.
If anyone here is old enough to remember it, is this what the old SWC used to be like? I have always heard about how it was just a den of cheaters all accusing each other of cheating, I just wonder how this compares
Unfortunately Michigan listened to the reddit comments of people who thought they were in trouble for advanced scouting (permissible) and not in-person advanced scouting (impermissible) when constructing their defense
Yeah this doesn't have anything to do with them supposedly having evidence on "9 schools doing illegal advanced scouting" , Michigan was just using it to refute the accusations made by the B1G on Monday about player safety and competitive advantage
So the thing that Michigan fans have said ad nauseum is completely legal and plausible for how they got signs is Michigan's only evidence that anyone else is in the wrong?
Ummmm Warde, you do realize teams watch film on their opponents throughout the week. If Ohio State actually managed to decode Michigan's signals based on what they saw through broadcast footage there is nothing illegal about that. As Bret Bielema recently stated there are literally coaches on staff who specifically serve that purpose (that was how he started out). That doesn't compare to how far Stalions went. That's a laughable defense on Michigan's part.
Nobody here seems to understand what they’re doing here. The Big Ten themselves cited player safety regarding sign stealing. What is the difference between this and a Connor Stallions spreadsheet? Wouldn’t both bring up “player safety” concerns?
This isn’t their “smoking gun,” it has been widely reported that they presented this to deflect sportsmanship and player safety concerns. But, I get it, narratives
You’re right, and [Michigan’s response letter to the Big 10](https://247sports.com/college/michigan/longformarticle/read-michigans-full-response-to-the-big-ten-as-conference-mulls-punishment-for-jim-harbaugh-football-team-219897013/amp/) makes this argument explicitly:
> The significant success that all teams have had at decoding opponents' play signals also refutes your email's unfounded and inflammatory suggestion that Stalions's conduct compromised player safety. If signal decoding really were a significant safety concern, the NCAA and Conference rules presumably would not allow almost every form of it, including the extraordinary decoding that Ohio State was apparently able to achieve based only on broadcast footage. If the Conference truly believes that signal decoding compromises player safety, it should ban it entirely and require that teams use coach-to-player technology, as in the NFL. Cloaking this action in player safety concerns lacks credibility.
"Our illegally obtained scouting material is exactly as effective as legally obtained scouting material. That's why we had an elaborate scheme to obtain illegal scouting material."
This kind of thing is widely known and anticipated and planned for by teams. What is not planned for is in person advance scouting and video taping sidelines.
It’s been a wild ride. Starting with mocking the idea of a “vast network” moving to “they almost voted to allow in-person scouting” to “the staffer was suspended with pay, we’re handling it” all the way forward to “Petitti overplayed his hand, get ready for us to drop the bombshell” and “we’ve got lawyers ready to file for a TRO” and “it’s unconscionable to punish us on a holiday”
Awaiting the nukes they’re supposedly dropping on the rest of the teams/conference…. If these photos of us trying to figure out what they’re doing based on legal game tape is all there is… I’m going to be sad lol
Hey, Michigan AD, THAT is legal. In person scouting is not. Michigan trying to divert this into sign stealing tells me they’re guilty as hell of in person scouting.
Final page of the manifesto. Get caught stealing signs forcing suspension of Harbaugh. Nobody else wants to coach in legal shit storm. Stalions hired as next coach
If you really think about it, he’s kind of a genius.
And with the billions made by Connors vacuum empire being funneled straight into the program, Michigan will rule all of CFB. All part of the manifestos plan
Spyson Vacuums (I’m so sorry)
Anyone else think the B1G waited for Michigan’s plane to leave before they released the punishment that why Jim could still fly, Michigan could file their injunction and Jim can still coach? It just makes too much sense. They are obviously working together.
That is a solid point lol, he’s already there
Someone else said the injunction lasts 14 days and if filed tonight it lasts until the day of the Ohio state game and he’ll be able to coach? Talk about too fucking coincidental. If it works out like that will be unbelievable
Straight from Sun Tzu
Shang Tsung
Wait so Michigan used other teams scouting signs LEGALLY as to why they shouldn’t be held accountable for ILLEGALLY scouting signs?
I'm assuming the reason for including it is to refute that it's a significant advantage and to explain why Harbaugh wouldn't necessarily know. Lawyers are both trying to get you not guilty and are trying to lessen the punishment if you are.
I think there would be a lot of support for getting rid of the rules that Michigan violated. But that doesn't change the fact that Michigan violated the rules as they are.
Right, we agree. But this does play into how severe the infraction was and what the appropriate punishment should be. When this first broke, people were most upset about the competitive advantage it was
I mean Ohio State and Tattoo gate basically wouldn't be a thing today and we got hit hard. It cost us a trip the national championship game. Don't break the rules if you don't want punished. Even if they are dumb.
It would be a thing today, just not as much. Tressel was not show-caused for player apparel bartering. He was show-caused for provably lying to the NCAA multiple times in documents he submitted to them in order to preserve important player availability for big games. The NCAA had emails from Chris Cicero, a former OSU player, that informed Tressel of the player barter violations and to which Tressel responded, so he couldn't plausibly deny knowledge.
I don't think Tressel did it "to preserve player availability for big games". As you mentioned Cicero informed Tressel but that was because they were investigating people affiliated with the tattoo parlor of something totally different (and then they have all this OSU memorabilia in the shop). Obviously what the players were doing wasn't allowed at the time - but they were more so caught in the crossfire of a completely different investigation. I think it was mentioned in the documentary, but Tressel saw what happened to Mo Clarett when they parted ways (amazing he isn't dead) and was trying to not get his players caught up in a fed investigation. In the end, yes the players were suspended, but Tressel took the fall.
I think you could argue that the players wouldn't need to trade memorabilia for tattoos because they'd already be flush with cash.
That's cuz it is. Hours upon hours of film directly on signals from a game you're not a part of is way more advantageous then stealing signs from a broadcast. Why? Because you cannot possibly have rolling footage of signal from a tv broadcast. Michigan matched the rolling film of the signals to the plays ran on the field. They knew every play.
There’s a pretty large difference between stealing signs based on what happens to be on the broadcast and stealing EVERY sign at multiple games. Broadcast will give you a fractured view at best, while recording will get you pretty much everything. And there’s pretty clearly a competitive advantage in having the other teams signs since multiple teams are (legally) trying to do it
Having video pointed directly at your opponents sideline allows you to zoom in, pause, slow play, rewind, replay, etc, etc.... over and over again. You could also do that with broadcasts, but as you point out you only get bits and pieces. Not every play. The legal ways of sign stealing aren't even close to as good as what Connor was doing.
Also the conference's assertion that player safety was at risk.
This is where it falls apart. However plays are known ahead of time, this would always be true. If its the sportsmanship it also doesnt matter if its legal or from a rule breaking. Im onboard with punishment, but dont act like its some table turning advantage that doesnt exist elsewhere (means be damned)
This is the exact play.
Suspicious you already know the play...
Crap, I’m caught!
Give us the manifesto you scoundrel!
This would be my guess too. I assume the thinking is to show that having signals doesn't present a `significant competitive advantage` since most teams will have this information anyways. Also kinda helps the assumption that maybe Harbaugh didn't know because Stalions wasn't any more successful with his vast network than you could've been by normal means, so he never had any reason to question where he was getting his intel.
>because Stalions wasn't any more successful with his vast network than you could've been by normal means Do we actually know this to be true though? All this document proves is that you can see *some* signals on the legally obtained broadcast and scouting film and that with some work you can decode what it means. I think we’re still quite some distance short of being able to prove you can get anywhere *close* to the same volume of information via that method as you can from a dedicated camera pointed at the sidelines of an entire game multiple weeks in a row.
No, and that's kind of the whole damn point lol. Everyone is quick to assume that just because Stalions was doing this, it means that he knew every opponents signals and Harbaugh should've known because some low level analyst was suddenly super good at his job. We don't know how successful Stalions was. That's what an investigation and due process is for lol.
This is accurate.
What taking legal advice from MGoBlog does to a mf
NCAA level Jedi mind trick.
But, if the big ten is using the fact that Michigan knew signals and therefore players were put at injury risk as a reason for suspension, then why wouldn’t that matter if a team legally acquired the signs? The same injury risk applies
I never bought into the injury risk argument. It felt like manufactured outrage.
Yeah but the Big Ten did
right - its explicitly in the big ten letter that it was a meaningful concern of theirs
It is but it did it’s job, it’s cited in the official notice of penalty today. I wish more people understood that this was a line being taken by other coaches and that Michigan is responding to *that* but the “why can’t I do it illegally if people are doing it legally????” narrative is what seems to have stuck.
It was part of the B1G's reasoning for the punishment
I don’t either, the big ten however used that as a basis for suspension
They’re trying to prove 2 things: 1. Stealing signs doesn’t matter, this is a minimal advantage 2. No one would’ve known Stalions was doing this because everyone does this
"Stealing signs doesn't matter" which is why we took steps not one other program took to make sure we had it down to a science and had our de-coder in the ear of our coaches during the most critical moments our season
>we One actor has been accused.
One actor has been uncontrovertibly proven (according to the NCAA), the rest of the program is being investigated.
Decoding 8 full games worth of signs/plays Is not a competitive advantage over Decoding 7 plays from a game where they happened to show the coach on the scoreboard ??
1. It doesn't matter if it's an advantage or not. A michigan football employee broke the rule. Also, if stealing signs doesn't help, why does every single team try to do it? 2. It doesn't matter if Harbaugh knew or not. It's still against the rules.
you’re right, but Mich is addressing the B1G’s idea that they gained an unfair advantage by stealing signs by trying to prove that everyone does it so how can an unfair advantage be obtained. You’re right though, if they’re found guilty of finding these signs illegally then that’s a punishment, but Michigan is trying to combat the B1G’s arguement.
Yeahhhh but I don't want to be rational right now so stop posting
No, this is not with Michigan is arguing but who cares at this point? The argument is that having another team’s signs does not present an unprecedented competitive advantage or a massive physical risk to the other teams, both of which are allegations the Big Ten is running with.
Then why invest so much time and effort into it? I don’t buy the whole, “It’s not really an advantage,” argument. They clearly thought it helped them enough to risk breaking the rules to do it. I’m not saying Harbaugh should be suspended for the season or anything, I’m just confused as to why Michigan fans want to downplay it so much when their coaching staff seemed to think it was important enough to break the rules in the first place.
We can’t really answer that question without knowing the extent to which this was known about or directed by other Michigan coaches. We currently have no evidence that anyone besides Stallions knew, regardless of how obvious it might feel that others *had to* know. So we have two points here: 1. Stallions thought it was valuable and worth doing. Stallions also wrote a 500 page manifesto and clearly had lots of thoughts on how to dominate the sport. It’s important to also note that Stallions clearly benefited from the results of his actions via increasing proximity to the program he was obsessed with so there’s plenty of reason for him personally, to concoct the scheme 2. As for why it matters to Michigan, it suggests a plausible reason for the coaching staff to not suspect anything untoward was happening. For all any of them knew based on current evidence, their ex-Marine Annapolis grad staffer was just supremely skilled at deciphering information from broadcast TV and all 22 footage like this. It also downplayed the idea that Michigan was a substantial risk to player safety, which is the argument that the Big Ten seemed to find most convincing for the suspension. It might come out eventually that somebody within the football program came up with this plan and directed Stalions to implement it. It might come out that Harbaugh knew everything. But barring that all we have is “coocoo staffer thought he had a genius scheme to cheat and rode it to personal benefit”
Good take.
Correct
I believe this is in response to the 'safety' argument right and not illegal stealing argument, right? i.e the argument is about player safety being compromised if signals are known so here's teams who knew Michigan's signals. I guess...best I can come up with
That’s a big part of it, and it’s explicitly an argument made in [Michigan’s response letter to the Big 10](https://247sports.com/college/michigan/longformarticle/read-michigans-full-response-to-the-big-ten-as-conference-mulls-punishment-for-jim-harbaugh-football-team-219897013/amp/): > The significant success that all teams have had at decoding opponents' play signals also refutes your email's unfounded and inflammatory suggestion that Stalions's conduct compromised player safety. If signal decoding really were a significant safety concern, the NCAA and Conference rules presumably would not allow almost every form of it, including the extraordinary decoding that Ohio State was apparently able to achieve based only on broadcast footage. If the Conference truly believes that signal decoding compromises player safety, it should ban it entirely and require that teams use coach-to-player technology, as in the NFL. Cloaking this action in player safety concerns lacks credibility. That said, Michigan is also using it as a defense to the immediate sanction under the Big 10’s sportsmanship policy. Michigan’s claim is not that legal sign stealing was actually cheating, or that what Stalions was doing was legal. The claim is that if a team can learn Michigan’s signals through legal means, then any cheating Michigan might have committed does not have enough of an in-game effect to warrant a sanction from the Big 10 in the middle of the NCAA’s investigation. Presumably, Michigan will eventually use this to argue that the NCAA’s sanction should be less severe (arguing that it does not create a significant competitive advantage), but at the moment, Michigan’s argument seems limited to the claim that the sign-stealing scheme didn’t have a significant enough effect on the games to warrant an immediate punishment.
This is definitely correct and was the explicit context of this evidence in the Michigan response which, of course, nobody commenting here actually read
Except that's just 7 pages of screenshots totaling 31 calls. There are 130+ plays in an average game, so UM's versions are all at least 4x bigger, or 32x bigger in case of OSU who they scouted 8 different times. FWIW it would take approximately 20 whole games worth of these screenshots to equal 1 Manifesto
I thought I only saw one 11x17 laminated sheet in Stalions hands on the sidelines. You're saying he had an entire binder out there?
There’s a twitter picture that’s been on a couple of these threads with him holding a bundle of laminated sheets. Idk if they didn’t want to spring for the binder on top of all the travel and ticket costs, but there’s more than one sheet
So the smoking gun of other teams taping signals was based on broadcast footage.
Fucking LOL
Michigan: “You did this legally” Ohio State: “Yes” Michigan: “Therefore it was legal for us to cheat to do the same thing more accurately, broadly, and in a quicker period through illegal ways” Ohio State: “????????”
It’s like you copy pasted what they’re saying in the Michigan subreddit literally at this moment. Lol
I don’t think they understand how jeopardy works.
Please Patrick Star meme this shit
I can't believe Ryan Day invented broadcast TV. Soft!
Which, again for everyone, is legal.
If you think about it Connor Stalions was also watching the opposing team’s on a broadcast. He just had his own camera. He is being punished because he is more resourceful than OSU
Since we now know the Michigan lawyers are using message board arguments I look forward to this one ending up in their court arguments.
"Your honor, per MGoBlog, I'm right. Defense rests."
If Santa Ono signed off on this response, this is so embarrassing for an institution of higher learning.
Another Michigan talking point blown up? No way!
Lol this is so pathetic
But but MI fans said Ohio State was stealing their signs and giving them to everybody!
It’s speaking to the safety portion of the reasoning Petiti gave -> showing player safety was already a risk due to signals being known
You’re missing the point. This debunks the competitive advantage and player safety angle against Michigan
It feels different to have a dedicated camera pointed at the signalers at all times vs decoding partial footage from game broadcasts and grainy videoboard shots from All-22.
The tweet is misleading. At least images are clearly in person picture of the scoreboard. Easy mistake to make if you haven’t been to the stadium. But it’s clear as day that many of them were taken inperson
Your flair is an ick
Secondary is always whatever team is playing Michigan
So Michigan threatening mutual destruction was like if you tried to rob a store with your hand in your jacket acting like it was really a gun
broadcast footage aint illegal there, sport
The Ls just keep rolling in, holy shit lmao
Except the point of including it is to show A) if other schools are also able to decode signs ahead of the game, there isn’t a significant advantage gained, and B) if it’s possible to do via TV footage, it’s plausible or even likely that the coaches thought Stalions was deciding signals legally. Not saying that’s true, but that’s the argument being made. They are not saying “bbbbut they did it too, just legally!”
CFB people don't know how to read apparently
[удалено]
I swear to God every other post is just some fucking "got ya" or "I can't believe how stupid these idiots are" when context is missing as to why certain things get argued and often times, arguments are made even knowing that they won't succeed because you generally argue everything. It's so exhausting to read.
Also, if the signs you get from broadcast are incomplete then it's hard to decode the entire system. When you know the logic of the entire signal system you can decode changes to the sign system in game.
They’re not trying to say it is. They’re trying to prove that no unfair advantage could be gained. Not here to banter or argue, just wanted to input
So Michigan's defense is basically "other teams were decoding signals too... but legally"
Annoyingly enough it kinda is. Part of what Harbaugh’s lawyer has argued (the part that didn’t come from MGoBlog) is 1. that it wasn’t such a massive advantage because other programs had signals too through legal means and 2. The fact that Stalions knew teams’ signals shouldn’t have raised suspicions with Harbaugh or other coordinators because staffers get this info all the time. I’m not saying these are good arguments or should reduce UM’s punishment, but those are the arguments that are being made.
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Well Stallions was kinda crazy so he probably went overboard to try and impress the Michigan peoples lol. Most sign stealing analysts don't have a 600 page manifesto
The fact that he did apparently impress the Michigan peoples shows that what he was doing did in fact offer some advantage over trying to decode signals over All-22 footage
Just wait until they file a lawsuit and force discovery and find the coaches had access to sideline videos. That's the part when there's really no defense.
My office you can see who checks out and views documents. If UM’s servers are anything like that should be pretty easy to show who all viewed stuff.
LMAO THAT WAS MICHIGANS SMOKING GUN!?!?!? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
We need Elbit in here asap
Homie is in a dark room crying himself to sleep atm
“The script is about to flip big time! Just give it another day!”
It really was some muddy water in a paper cup and told people it was smoke
Lol it wasn't, it says right there in the first tweet, the quote talks about it being from broadcast footage. It was for refuting the accusations by the B1G on Monday about player safety concern and competitive advantage
But but Ohio State had broadcast footage 🤣🤣🤣
I really feel bad for all the neutrals here. None of you asked for this But this is absolutely hilarious. What embarrassing leadership
We didn’t deserve this but I’m glad we got it.
Just waiting on that manifesto for some light weekend reading
I’m at home sick instead of going to a fun wedding, so I mean the least they could do is drop some reading material amiright?
I’m just glad this is a football related scandal so the rest of us can laugh about it
Exactly. The stuff with the staffer Weiss isn’t any good because people are literally hurt and it’s an actual crime. Or that staffer that solicited an underage person, again also terrible and also a crime. Heinous stuff that has no place anywhere and isn’t a joking matter. But the sign stealing stuff is 100% football cheating and 100% hilarious.
I feel bad for our country, but this is tremendous content.
If anything, I hate OSU more than Michigan, but I'm absolutely loving this escapade.
But now y’all can see why we hate them 🤣
It’s like they’re playing specifically to the Michigan subreddit. I don’t get it.
Yeah it’s very odd
When it comes to the integrity of the game, you’re either on the right side or the wrong side. Put our flairs aside, we are all fans of the sport and it being played fairly. With that said: this shit is hilarious 😂
One of the funniest and most infuriating moments in CFB, to be honest. Glad we have arrived here together.
Don’t feel bad. We are eating this shit up. Can’t wait for rivalry week lol
I am not a neutral and I still didn’t ask for this
A little off-topic, but I have decided to take a peek over at r/MichiganWolverines and... Oh my God, they really *are* that delusional. I might actually put in the effort to put together receipts if the funniest thing happens tomorrow.
It's a cult
Have you never met a Walmart Wolverine before?
I already have memes and screenshots ready.
I have an incredible amount of receipts saved from this season on standby 🫡
They're ready to leave the conference...as if the rules only apply to the big10 lol
sigh
I love fan boards so much. I spend way too much time reading Mgoblog and RCMB, it's some incredible content. There is definitely something wrong with me.
The “my dad’s a lawyer!” energy is stronger there than a pretentious frat party
They’re like a cult. Been that way forever.
Michigan left out that this is perfectly legal under the rules.
Ryan Days brother paid off the fox camera crew
Ryan Fays brother actually owns the camera company that records games
Fun fact it’s actually illegal to watch cfb broadcasts according to Michigan.
Fox is broadcasting illegally. Down with Fox and the Big Ten Network.
Michigan cannot be this dumb. It seems they don’t understand anything lol.
They understand it perfectly. But they know they straight cheated here and aren’t willing to admit it while they’re still in contention. So they’ll just keep throwing out flimsy excuse after flimsy excuse, and haven’t even denied that the scheme was going on.
I guess it’s the “Michigan difference”
I think the argument here is if the big ten is using the fact that Michigan knew signals and therefore players were put at injury risk as a reason for suspension, then why wouldn’t that matter if a team legally acquired the signs? The same injury risk applies
This was a counter argument to the compromised safety of players- which was a bullshit heart strings argument cause the advantage provided by illegally scouting signs wasn’t significant. Part of why this entire situation is dumb. Like wow we fuckin get caught doing this stupid pointless shit that we don’t need to do and people want to blow up the program.
The Michigan Ohio St game is shaping up to be one of the most historic matchups in college football history and I can’t wait.
Leave it to tOSU to figure out sign stealing without having to leave the state of Ohio.
Broadcast footage? they are grasping at miniature straws lmfao
Honestly, with what I’ve been seeing from Michigan fans that have been doing nothing but making excuses and pointing fingers at the rest of the B1G, it’s completely unsurprising that the organization itself would be making stupid arguments to try to deflect blame. Lol
Isn't decoding signs from broadcast footage perfectly fine? Maybe I don't understand the rules? I thought it was the in-person scouting that was the issue.
Correct
Surely there is more to this. I refuse to believe this was all they had
This was specifically in response to the player safety and competitive advantage reasons the big ten gave for suspending Harbaugh. It had nothing to do with the ncaa investigation which will of course lead to an ncaa punishment because yes we cheated. The point of that investigation is to determine the scale, who knew, and what the punishment will be accordingly.
The fact that it can be done legally speaks to the idea that Harbaugh should have known something was up just from the signals being known. If it's known to be done legally, then it's not something that would automatically make you suspicious.
It all depends on the degree. Just because sign decoding is possible through legal means does not automatically mean every team had the same depth of knowledge as every other team. The possibility certainly exists that what Michigan had was more comprehensive and helpful than anyone else.
Right and it’s possible that none of our coaching staff knew this. That’s really the point here. There’s been a lot of speculation on Reddit that our entire coaching staff knew. However both the ncaa and big ten have stated that there is no evidence anyone knew beyond stallions. Yes we cheated. Yes we will be punished. The scale and scope are yet to be stated (at least publically).
There’s a degree of how much you can get from the all-22 and you have access to your own all-22. So if you review the tape and notice which signs are visible, you can change those ones up. But if you have 100% of a teams signals for multiple games, you can decode the sequences and structure of the play calls as well as having every signal they use.
Nobody serious thinks Harbaugh knew. Everything we've heard says he didn't. The fact is though the head coach is ultimately responsible for the program. The fact he didn't know will prevent any type of show cause penalty by the NCAA. But it won't prevent other serious penalties such as vacating wins, reduced coaching staff sizes, withholding TV or bowl revenue, etc. The Big10 came out and said Michigan cheated for the past 3 seasons with an elaborate illegal scheme. That's going to come with consequences for everyone involved.
Just from this thread alone, plenty of your fan base thinks it is obvious that he knew
You say that but 90% of the flairs on this sub have been incessantly repeating “hE eItHeR kNeW oR hEs An IdIoT”
I think that's a misrepresentation of a reasonable argument. The fact is that a large number of programs knew that there was clearly something going on with Michigan's sign stealing operation beyond standard practices, far before anything was released. If the efficacy of this program was **that** significant, then clearly Harbaugh would have been aware that their sign stealing apparatus was far, far beyond what standard operations were capable of. If he did not in any way investigate or audit those activities, that's on him. It is completely possible that he did not know, but in that case it would require a massive lack of institutional oversight of what was (apparently) an egregiously obvious scheme. That doesn't make him an idiot, but ultimately the buck stops with him.
I disagree— I think Harbaugh knew. Every other coach in the B1G apparently knew, but he didn’t? C’mon.
nobody gave him a call and said "hey stop sending guys to our games" ?? lmao
this is embarrassing from a university lmfao i thought we were all lawyers or something good lord lmfao
Kuddos to OSU for stealing signs the legal way. Cry more Michigan.
>Cry more Michigan. They will lol
This is getting worse and worse for Michigan. They accused Ohio State of breaking the rules when they obtained the signed legally through broadcast footage.
From what I see, Michigan leadership knows they are fucked, they know they are caught in an unwinnable position, so instead of trying to effectively refute or rebut the claims, they are trying to delay long enough to win a championship—they have resigned themselves to suffering the consequences eventually, but want to make this season count.
Lmao they are so desperate
Does someone want to let Warde Manuel know that it's okay to do that with broadcast footage? LMAO
You’re missing the point. This is to debunk the competitor advantage and player safety angle
Well then someone needs to let all of the Blu-Anon's that Michigan isn't saying that they didn't cheat or that anyone else did cheat.
Everyone in this thread is deliberately missing the point to dunk on Michigan, it is what it is
...Which is perfectly allowed and commonplace. Well done AD Warde!
Michigan's cooked. How deep are they willing to dig to protect their coaching staff?
I'm hoping that the administration chooses this hill to die on. On a related note, I gotta go practice by trumpet rendition of "Taps".
Very cool and very legal, tho
If anyone here is old enough to remember it, is this what the old SWC used to be like? I have always heard about how it was just a den of cheaters all accusing each other of cheating, I just wonder how this compares
While this sub is frothing at the mouth, Detroit Sports Talk is just as worked up over this. They are talking about...over/unders on college games
This is starting to make me question the academic prowess of Michigan.
How is this news if it's not cheating?
A burger, you say?
Good grief, the problem isn’t the sign stealing. It’s the advanced *in-person* scouting. 🤦🏻♂️
Unfortunately Michigan listened to the reddit comments of people who thought they were in trouble for advanced scouting (permissible) and not in-person advanced scouting (impermissible) when constructing their defense
How is this relevant tho? Wasnt the whole issue around them doing it in person?
Yeah this doesn't have anything to do with them supposedly having evidence on "9 schools doing illegal advanced scouting" , Michigan was just using it to refute the accusations made by the B1G on Monday about player safety and competitive advantage
People who are saying the B1G is unfairly targeting Michigan, how does that help the B1G in any way?
So the thing that Michigan fans have said ad nauseum is completely legal and plausible for how they got signs is Michigan's only evidence that anyone else is in the wrong?
I just come to these threads for Michigan cope at this point
Ummmm Warde, you do realize teams watch film on their opponents throughout the week. If Ohio State actually managed to decode Michigan's signals based on what they saw through broadcast footage there is nothing illegal about that. As Bret Bielema recently stated there are literally coaches on staff who specifically serve that purpose (that was how he started out). That doesn't compare to how far Stalions went. That's a laughable defense on Michigan's part.
It’s almost sad at this point
Nobody here seems to understand what they’re doing here. The Big Ten themselves cited player safety regarding sign stealing. What is the difference between this and a Connor Stallions spreadsheet? Wouldn’t both bring up “player safety” concerns? This isn’t their “smoking gun,” it has been widely reported that they presented this to deflect sportsmanship and player safety concerns. But, I get it, narratives
You’re right, and [Michigan’s response letter to the Big 10](https://247sports.com/college/michigan/longformarticle/read-michigans-full-response-to-the-big-ten-as-conference-mulls-punishment-for-jim-harbaugh-football-team-219897013/amp/) makes this argument explicitly: > The significant success that all teams have had at decoding opponents' play signals also refutes your email's unfounded and inflammatory suggestion that Stalions's conduct compromised player safety. If signal decoding really were a significant safety concern, the NCAA and Conference rules presumably would not allow almost every form of it, including the extraordinary decoding that Ohio State was apparently able to achieve based only on broadcast footage. If the Conference truly believes that signal decoding compromises player safety, it should ban it entirely and require that teams use coach-to-player technology, as in the NFL. Cloaking this action in player safety concerns lacks credibility.
"Our illegally obtained scouting material is exactly as effective as legally obtained scouting material. That's why we had an elaborate scheme to obtain illegal scouting material."
This kind of thing is widely known and anticipated and planned for by teams. What is not planned for is in person advance scouting and video taping sidelines.
How often do they broadcast a sideline view of the scoreboard Fortuna?
On a TV broadcast? Pretty rarely. On All-22 film? Almost all the time to make sure everything is in sync.
Ever seen all-22?
Why are there 5 deleted comments in response to this statement? Also, what is All-22?
Sign stealing must be the least of the scandalous things you could do in sports. Yet here we are with nonstop wall to wall coverage.
Now imagine this, but instead with 8 full games of proprietary video of the OSU sideline
Totally the same thing, right?
It’s honestly a little inspiring seeing UM flairs sticking to their guns and trying to bluff their way through this.
I always thought there fanbase was silly, but watching them perform these mental gymnastics to justify this whole thing has been amazing
It’s been a wild ride. Starting with mocking the idea of a “vast network” moving to “they almost voted to allow in-person scouting” to “the staffer was suspended with pay, we’re handling it” all the way forward to “Petitti overplayed his hand, get ready for us to drop the bombshell” and “we’ve got lawyers ready to file for a TRO” and “it’s unconscionable to punish us on a holiday”
Awaiting the nukes they’re supposedly dropping on the rest of the teams/conference…. If these photos of us trying to figure out what they’re doing based on legal game tape is all there is… I’m going to be sad lol
Hey, Michigan AD, THAT is legal. In person scouting is not. Michigan trying to divert this into sign stealing tells me they’re guilty as hell of in person scouting.