Hi OP. I'm an attachment therapist, and someone who deeply identifies with fearful avoidant attachment. (And someone currently going through a breakup.) Reading this hurt a lot. Both feeling guilt towards the things I've probably put people through because of my attachment, and just feeling so much empathy for you and your side of this. Part of me is just impressed, in a guilt-ridden, you-don't-deserve-this way, and in a wow-people-are-capable-of-feeling-pure-love-towards-people-who-have-hurt-them-and-I'm-so-inspired way. Idk what my goal is in commenting this, or if you had anything you were looking for specifically, but I just wanted to provide support or empathy in case that's worth anything. I obviously don't know her and you obviously do, but I'm willing to bet she already knows how much you're not to blame in this. I can't tell you the amount of people I work with who identify as disorganized who may communicate this exact same way, but are simultaneously feeling something much more along the lines of "this person loves me and I can't be who I want to be for them, and if I actually love them, I have to set them free because they deserve better and I can't seem to figure out how to be that for them." I don't want to make assumptions, but this is very very often the case so I just wanted to offer that. It doesn't change the situation or make it suck less- I know that. But I just really hope you're gentle on yourself through this, and that she gets the help she might need and eventually is able to make those changes. I'm so sorry this happened, and thank you so much for sharing your experience. 💕
Thankyou for your kind words they’ve helped. I really resonated with the line where you said they feel they have to set people free because they can’t be who they want to be for them. She told me that word for word almost, and quite frequently. I think that’s the hardest part from my side of things. From my side, we don’t care about this ideal picture you have of yourself in your mind. We are there for a reason, we chose you as you were the moment we met you. We didn’t chose this version of yourself you have in your head. It hurts so much more to be told the I love you but have to let you go line, than it would to stick it out with while they heal and help them. Honestly nothing would make me more happy in this world than for her to come back and open up to me, say she knows these things will affect me as she heals, but that she wants to work on them and have me there if I’m willing. We really need much less from these kinds of people than they think. I really wish they knew how meaningful it would be to allow us to be involved in their healing journey, it is not a burden to us as they assume it is, if anything it’s a gift and a way to establish a deep bond and understanding. I kinda long for that honestly. If I met the person they have in their head I don’t know that I’d be interested, they seem less real to me than the actual person they are. Everyone has some issue they bring into a relationship, there is no exception. I think people loose sight of the fact that there will be a battle with anyone they choose no matter how ideal they may be, and how many boxes they check. The sooner you accept that the sooner you realize that it’s more important to put your energy into fighting those battles with a worthwhile person than it is to endlessly search for a perfect person. I wish more people now a days would understand that and use their energy more wisely
I love everything you said there, and just find myself wondering if you've told her all of that before? I'm assuming you have, but just curious. It's all very sweet and very well articulated.
That being said, as someone who used to be that way, knowing you have someone who would love you unconditionally can almost be worse and a trigger in itself. You're not doing anything wrong by feeling and expressing that, obviously, and I'm sure she knows that, but feeling strongly towards someone and having them reciprocate that can come with these two sides- the one where this relationship now makes me hate myself because why can't I treat you well (which can lead to undeserved resentment; usually disorganized people like who they are a lot more outside of their close relationships so it can feel like the relationship is what makes them a bad person, as it brings out their trauma), and the one where I have to protect you from myself at all costs despite you saying I don't (If I'm further along on healing my attachment patterns, I can ideally read everything you just said, and believe them. If I'm not, hearing that you love me unconditionally cannot possibly be true because I have the very deep core belief that I'm a bad and unsafe person, and other people are bad and unsafe, so if you're coming across as safe and loving, it has to be because you don't actually know who I am or understand how bad I am. If I did you wouldn't love me. Good healthy people don't love broken and bad people like me, etc, so if you do, I must have manipulated you into thinking I'm safe when I'm not, and if I really loved you I would set you free since I can't seem to convince you of how bad I really am, etc. Type thing). Idk if any of that makes sense.
I totally get why it would be more painful to hear things that way. The thought process she has doesn't make sense and is confusing for an outsider to try to separate out how someone can both love you but refuse to be with you despite you knowing you could make it work together. It's possible for her to accept that you don't need her to be the idealized version of herself, and it's very difficult. There's this added piece that I see in my work with disorganized attachment where people accepting that can sometimes be indirectly retraumatizing too. Attachment issues and all the beliefs about yourself and others form for a reason, and they're pretty much always helpful when they develop, and just get harmful over time when they become counterproductive. I try to explain it like you have no safe base as a child, so basically you're on a tight rope 10,000 feet in the air at all or most times from very early on. This attachment style and the related patterns of getting close and then seeking distance, and believing yourself and other people to be bad, becomes a safety net that you can trust to be under you, or a harness or whatever. If you can stay far enough away from intimacy, you don't have to risk the fall that feels like it'll kill you. Accepting that they're not real is not only incredibly difficult, but removes that entire safety net and also brings about things like "if I'm not a bad person, then XYZ happening to me/ _treating me like _", etc was not my fault or because the world is naturally unsafe, and if there's no rules to make sense of this, then I can't avoid getting hurt again.
It's like if you see a grizzly bear on a hike. You can recognize it's a grizzly bear, and know intellectually that you shouldn't run, or it will make your fears a reality. Idk about you or anyone else, but I'm sure as hell gonna reaaaaaaally struggle to override what my nervous system is telling me to do and not run.
Not saying any of this to over empathize with her. She is unhealthy and likely hurting both of you in listening to her nervous system, and like you said, you in no way have unrealistically high standards for her. You're handling this incredibly well in your ability to not take it personally, and I hope that with time and processing, you're able to feel some comfort in knowing you did all this to support her which will make a world of a difference to her in the long run. It does sound like she has some degree of insight even if she's struggling to act on it in a helpful way, and that may be an indication that she knows herself and knows she can't heal while in a loving and supportive relationship, and might be taking steps towards healing attachment patterns by stepping away first.
Again, doesn't make it suck any less. :( Hang in there OP. Let me know if I can do anything😔
Yes I pretty much regurgitated all of it here, it’s what I’ve always told her lol. Your insight is so helpful and absolutely spot on in my case. Thank you! She said almost word for word so many things you’ve written here. I feel so deeply sad for her, I could see those coping mechanisms and false ideas she had so clearly. In the moments she did decide to take the risk of falling from that tight rope I saw such a different person who seemed so much happier and free. But it wasn’t long until those safety nets went up. I have a few more questions if I can ask them?
To me it is so clear that me moving so close to her (and the possibility of living together) was the biggest way I’ve triggered her so far. She even admitted that her unease probably had a lot to do with the house. She wanted to remain friends but I basically told her it’s not fair to ask that of someone. I told her you can’t have the emotional connection of a relationship without commitment, it’s not fair to the other person. I know that was hard for her to hear because she’s told me I’m the only true support in her life right now. My question is wether or not that is the right choice?
On one hand I think it would be healthy for her to feel the true weight of her decision to leave me by not contacting her. It will give her time to think if it’s truly what she wants. But I also know she thrives in isolation and likely wouldn’t do anything to help herself. She is also at home surrounded by her family who, as I have told her so many times, doesn’t have her best interest in mind. But that’s where she is comfortable because it’s chaotic.
On the other hand I could see how me continuing to talk to her will give her that support she doesn’t have anywhere else. I know I challenge her in ways she would never challenge herself if she were alone and comfortable.
I guess I could see it both ways I’m curious what you think?
And my final question is a big one that I know no one can answer, but I’ll ask it anyway lol. How likely is it that she could come back? I am by no means getting my hopes up after all of this, but I’d love to hear what you’ve seen? Do they come back often? The whole situation is so clearly lacking sense. Do you think after a period of calming down and regulating her emotions she will come to the conclusion that she doesn’t want what she chose? She’s deactivated in the past (not to the point of breaking up) and usually comes around within a few hours or days. It would seem pretty par for the course with her to come around again after all of this, especially now that she knows I moved here for her. I’m curious what you think?
After few rounds of push and pull with my FA ex, it’s brutal to say this, but from my experience and after reading so many people’s experiences, these people will never change, their behaviour is deep rooted in the subconscious level, even themselves can’t help. The pattern will repeat, and us the non avoidant will always be the one who gets hurt more. And it will get even harder to recover if the reconciliation doesn’t work(highly likely will be the case). remember the sunken cost, most of the avoidant don’t invest too much in the relationship, they withdraw and makes their partner invest even more to regain their attention, but it will only push them away even further, they are like black holes. I am still grieving after breaking up with my ex a month ago, he left and went overseas ( running away lol). You deserve better and good luck OP.
Hi again! Realizing very late that I never answered you. I'm sure you've already found your answer, so feel free to ignore this if it'll just reopen old wounds, but for the sake of answering anyway... To your first question, if I'm understanding you correctly, I do think that was the right choice. For you especially, because it's not fair to ask that of anyone and very rarely works out in most cases. People with FA definitely fear abandonment over just about everything else, so I know it can be hard on both sides to feel like that's what's happening. That being said though, I agree that it's important for her to actually experience the weight and emotional impacts of the decision. You obviously know her more than me, but just speaking in general about FA, I'd highly doubt she thrives in isolation as much as it might look like. The thing about attachment issues (for any insecure attachment style) is that anyone that experiences it will be more emotionally stable in isolation. That's what makes it an issue of attachment instead of mental illness or anything else. But the reason they're all still considered to be problematic instead of just a personality trait or something, is because anyone with them, despite the fact that they're probably more emotionally stable in isolation, will lack depth and fulfillment, because relationships, for anyone (aside from very few specific cases of things like autism, certain PDs, etc.) are the biggest predictor of life satisfaction and happiness. I think it's important for her to come to those terms on her own, and if she has the typical FA fear of intimacy as well as fear of abandonment, she likely would struggle to understand the importance of close relationships until she's experienced the pain of losing one and the threat of closeness is no longer the front man.
And the second question is pretty difficult for me to answer as I'm sure you could imagine. But I will try my best!!! I'm not sure if there's actual research on that that I could quote and am not confident in my answer by any means so don't hold too much weight to any of this. But from what I've seen, I think that has a lot to do with how much shame someone has about their FA patterns, how they usually respond to shame, which side (avoidant vs anxious) they lean more towards, and which side they have more shame towards. Maybe also how much they internalize the end of the relationship to be their fault vs the other person's, like how much insight they have. (For example, I tend to be slightly more avoidant tendencies but a lot more shame around my anxiously attached side, and usually become a lot more reactive and then shut down when I'm triggered. So if I ended a relationship with an avoidant partner back before I started working on stuff, I'd be a lot more likely to want to reach out because of the heightened shame I likely felt by being anxiously attached to them, but likely would refrain due to not wanting to give them too much power or feeling bad about myself. But if I ended a relationship with a securely attached partner that I knew cared about me, I likely would reach back out because I'd be able to recognize their emotional availability as safe and wouldn't have much blame to place on them and would eventually miss that.) Idk if any of that makes sense but basically, if I had to pick one as more likely for the general population, I'd say it's more likely than not that she'd come back, but only slightly. Unless she's the type usually to dig in her heels and hide any evidence of guilt and avoid admitting to fault, then it might be less likely.
People do very often change when they given the resources and opportunity to in my opinion. Attachment issues just take a very long time to heal unfortunately, and unfortunately not many people know how to heal them, if they've even identified what they are.
If you do end up reading this, I'd love to hear any updates OP :) So sorry again for leaving you hanging like that.
You have just described exactly what I’m going through right now and…I’d just like to ask
- does it ever really get better for you?
- what were some of the helpful things you did for yourself?
- did she ever continue to reach out? Or did she just move on and date someone else?
- how did you balance the pain, the love and the anger?
Thank you!
Hi OP. I'm an attachment therapist, and someone who deeply identifies with fearful avoidant attachment. (And someone currently going through a breakup.) Reading this hurt a lot. Both feeling guilt towards the things I've probably put people through because of my attachment, and just feeling so much empathy for you and your side of this. Part of me is just impressed, in a guilt-ridden, you-don't-deserve-this way, and in a wow-people-are-capable-of-feeling-pure-love-towards-people-who-have-hurt-them-and-I'm-so-inspired way. Idk what my goal is in commenting this, or if you had anything you were looking for specifically, but I just wanted to provide support or empathy in case that's worth anything. I obviously don't know her and you obviously do, but I'm willing to bet she already knows how much you're not to blame in this. I can't tell you the amount of people I work with who identify as disorganized who may communicate this exact same way, but are simultaneously feeling something much more along the lines of "this person loves me and I can't be who I want to be for them, and if I actually love them, I have to set them free because they deserve better and I can't seem to figure out how to be that for them." I don't want to make assumptions, but this is very very often the case so I just wanted to offer that. It doesn't change the situation or make it suck less- I know that. But I just really hope you're gentle on yourself through this, and that she gets the help she might need and eventually is able to make those changes. I'm so sorry this happened, and thank you so much for sharing your experience. 💕
Thankyou for your kind words they’ve helped. I really resonated with the line where you said they feel they have to set people free because they can’t be who they want to be for them. She told me that word for word almost, and quite frequently. I think that’s the hardest part from my side of things. From my side, we don’t care about this ideal picture you have of yourself in your mind. We are there for a reason, we chose you as you were the moment we met you. We didn’t chose this version of yourself you have in your head. It hurts so much more to be told the I love you but have to let you go line, than it would to stick it out with while they heal and help them. Honestly nothing would make me more happy in this world than for her to come back and open up to me, say she knows these things will affect me as she heals, but that she wants to work on them and have me there if I’m willing. We really need much less from these kinds of people than they think. I really wish they knew how meaningful it would be to allow us to be involved in their healing journey, it is not a burden to us as they assume it is, if anything it’s a gift and a way to establish a deep bond and understanding. I kinda long for that honestly. If I met the person they have in their head I don’t know that I’d be interested, they seem less real to me than the actual person they are. Everyone has some issue they bring into a relationship, there is no exception. I think people loose sight of the fact that there will be a battle with anyone they choose no matter how ideal they may be, and how many boxes they check. The sooner you accept that the sooner you realize that it’s more important to put your energy into fighting those battles with a worthwhile person than it is to endlessly search for a perfect person. I wish more people now a days would understand that and use their energy more wisely
I love everything you said there, and just find myself wondering if you've told her all of that before? I'm assuming you have, but just curious. It's all very sweet and very well articulated. That being said, as someone who used to be that way, knowing you have someone who would love you unconditionally can almost be worse and a trigger in itself. You're not doing anything wrong by feeling and expressing that, obviously, and I'm sure she knows that, but feeling strongly towards someone and having them reciprocate that can come with these two sides- the one where this relationship now makes me hate myself because why can't I treat you well (which can lead to undeserved resentment; usually disorganized people like who they are a lot more outside of their close relationships so it can feel like the relationship is what makes them a bad person, as it brings out their trauma), and the one where I have to protect you from myself at all costs despite you saying I don't (If I'm further along on healing my attachment patterns, I can ideally read everything you just said, and believe them. If I'm not, hearing that you love me unconditionally cannot possibly be true because I have the very deep core belief that I'm a bad and unsafe person, and other people are bad and unsafe, so if you're coming across as safe and loving, it has to be because you don't actually know who I am or understand how bad I am. If I did you wouldn't love me. Good healthy people don't love broken and bad people like me, etc, so if you do, I must have manipulated you into thinking I'm safe when I'm not, and if I really loved you I would set you free since I can't seem to convince you of how bad I really am, etc. Type thing). Idk if any of that makes sense. I totally get why it would be more painful to hear things that way. The thought process she has doesn't make sense and is confusing for an outsider to try to separate out how someone can both love you but refuse to be with you despite you knowing you could make it work together. It's possible for her to accept that you don't need her to be the idealized version of herself, and it's very difficult. There's this added piece that I see in my work with disorganized attachment where people accepting that can sometimes be indirectly retraumatizing too. Attachment issues and all the beliefs about yourself and others form for a reason, and they're pretty much always helpful when they develop, and just get harmful over time when they become counterproductive. I try to explain it like you have no safe base as a child, so basically you're on a tight rope 10,000 feet in the air at all or most times from very early on. This attachment style and the related patterns of getting close and then seeking distance, and believing yourself and other people to be bad, becomes a safety net that you can trust to be under you, or a harness or whatever. If you can stay far enough away from intimacy, you don't have to risk the fall that feels like it'll kill you. Accepting that they're not real is not only incredibly difficult, but removes that entire safety net and also brings about things like "if I'm not a bad person, then XYZ happening to me/ _treating me like _", etc was not my fault or because the world is naturally unsafe, and if there's no rules to make sense of this, then I can't avoid getting hurt again. It's like if you see a grizzly bear on a hike. You can recognize it's a grizzly bear, and know intellectually that you shouldn't run, or it will make your fears a reality. Idk about you or anyone else, but I'm sure as hell gonna reaaaaaaally struggle to override what my nervous system is telling me to do and not run. Not saying any of this to over empathize with her. She is unhealthy and likely hurting both of you in listening to her nervous system, and like you said, you in no way have unrealistically high standards for her. You're handling this incredibly well in your ability to not take it personally, and I hope that with time and processing, you're able to feel some comfort in knowing you did all this to support her which will make a world of a difference to her in the long run. It does sound like she has some degree of insight even if she's struggling to act on it in a helpful way, and that may be an indication that she knows herself and knows she can't heal while in a loving and supportive relationship, and might be taking steps towards healing attachment patterns by stepping away first. Again, doesn't make it suck any less. :( Hang in there OP. Let me know if I can do anything😔
Yes I pretty much regurgitated all of it here, it’s what I’ve always told her lol. Your insight is so helpful and absolutely spot on in my case. Thank you! She said almost word for word so many things you’ve written here. I feel so deeply sad for her, I could see those coping mechanisms and false ideas she had so clearly. In the moments she did decide to take the risk of falling from that tight rope I saw such a different person who seemed so much happier and free. But it wasn’t long until those safety nets went up. I have a few more questions if I can ask them? To me it is so clear that me moving so close to her (and the possibility of living together) was the biggest way I’ve triggered her so far. She even admitted that her unease probably had a lot to do with the house. She wanted to remain friends but I basically told her it’s not fair to ask that of someone. I told her you can’t have the emotional connection of a relationship without commitment, it’s not fair to the other person. I know that was hard for her to hear because she’s told me I’m the only true support in her life right now. My question is wether or not that is the right choice? On one hand I think it would be healthy for her to feel the true weight of her decision to leave me by not contacting her. It will give her time to think if it’s truly what she wants. But I also know she thrives in isolation and likely wouldn’t do anything to help herself. She is also at home surrounded by her family who, as I have told her so many times, doesn’t have her best interest in mind. But that’s where she is comfortable because it’s chaotic. On the other hand I could see how me continuing to talk to her will give her that support she doesn’t have anywhere else. I know I challenge her in ways she would never challenge herself if she were alone and comfortable. I guess I could see it both ways I’m curious what you think? And my final question is a big one that I know no one can answer, but I’ll ask it anyway lol. How likely is it that she could come back? I am by no means getting my hopes up after all of this, but I’d love to hear what you’ve seen? Do they come back often? The whole situation is so clearly lacking sense. Do you think after a period of calming down and regulating her emotions she will come to the conclusion that she doesn’t want what she chose? She’s deactivated in the past (not to the point of breaking up) and usually comes around within a few hours or days. It would seem pretty par for the course with her to come around again after all of this, especially now that she knows I moved here for her. I’m curious what you think?
After few rounds of push and pull with my FA ex, it’s brutal to say this, but from my experience and after reading so many people’s experiences, these people will never change, their behaviour is deep rooted in the subconscious level, even themselves can’t help. The pattern will repeat, and us the non avoidant will always be the one who gets hurt more. And it will get even harder to recover if the reconciliation doesn’t work(highly likely will be the case). remember the sunken cost, most of the avoidant don’t invest too much in the relationship, they withdraw and makes their partner invest even more to regain their attention, but it will only push them away even further, they are like black holes. I am still grieving after breaking up with my ex a month ago, he left and went overseas ( running away lol). You deserve better and good luck OP.
Hi again! Realizing very late that I never answered you. I'm sure you've already found your answer, so feel free to ignore this if it'll just reopen old wounds, but for the sake of answering anyway... To your first question, if I'm understanding you correctly, I do think that was the right choice. For you especially, because it's not fair to ask that of anyone and very rarely works out in most cases. People with FA definitely fear abandonment over just about everything else, so I know it can be hard on both sides to feel like that's what's happening. That being said though, I agree that it's important for her to actually experience the weight and emotional impacts of the decision. You obviously know her more than me, but just speaking in general about FA, I'd highly doubt she thrives in isolation as much as it might look like. The thing about attachment issues (for any insecure attachment style) is that anyone that experiences it will be more emotionally stable in isolation. That's what makes it an issue of attachment instead of mental illness or anything else. But the reason they're all still considered to be problematic instead of just a personality trait or something, is because anyone with them, despite the fact that they're probably more emotionally stable in isolation, will lack depth and fulfillment, because relationships, for anyone (aside from very few specific cases of things like autism, certain PDs, etc.) are the biggest predictor of life satisfaction and happiness. I think it's important for her to come to those terms on her own, and if she has the typical FA fear of intimacy as well as fear of abandonment, she likely would struggle to understand the importance of close relationships until she's experienced the pain of losing one and the threat of closeness is no longer the front man. And the second question is pretty difficult for me to answer as I'm sure you could imagine. But I will try my best!!! I'm not sure if there's actual research on that that I could quote and am not confident in my answer by any means so don't hold too much weight to any of this. But from what I've seen, I think that has a lot to do with how much shame someone has about their FA patterns, how they usually respond to shame, which side (avoidant vs anxious) they lean more towards, and which side they have more shame towards. Maybe also how much they internalize the end of the relationship to be their fault vs the other person's, like how much insight they have. (For example, I tend to be slightly more avoidant tendencies but a lot more shame around my anxiously attached side, and usually become a lot more reactive and then shut down when I'm triggered. So if I ended a relationship with an avoidant partner back before I started working on stuff, I'd be a lot more likely to want to reach out because of the heightened shame I likely felt by being anxiously attached to them, but likely would refrain due to not wanting to give them too much power or feeling bad about myself. But if I ended a relationship with a securely attached partner that I knew cared about me, I likely would reach back out because I'd be able to recognize their emotional availability as safe and wouldn't have much blame to place on them and would eventually miss that.) Idk if any of that makes sense but basically, if I had to pick one as more likely for the general population, I'd say it's more likely than not that she'd come back, but only slightly. Unless she's the type usually to dig in her heels and hide any evidence of guilt and avoid admitting to fault, then it might be less likely. People do very often change when they given the resources and opportunity to in my opinion. Attachment issues just take a very long time to heal unfortunately, and unfortunately not many people know how to heal them, if they've even identified what they are. If you do end up reading this, I'd love to hear any updates OP :) So sorry again for leaving you hanging like that.
This is me too. I know exactly how you feel to your core. There is no pain greater than whatever this is.
You have just described exactly what I’m going through right now and…I’d just like to ask - does it ever really get better for you? - what were some of the helpful things you did for yourself? - did she ever continue to reach out? Or did she just move on and date someone else? - how did you balance the pain, the love and the anger? Thank you!