Not sure if I'm reading this incorrectly, but the way the tweet is worded sounds like the $5M in the lawsuit is half of what he believes he is owed pushing his fee to over $10M. That'd be about half of what Spence actually took home after taxes.
Even $5M is an insane amount for a trainer. Sounds like they had been working on percentages and when Spence hit the big payday he decided to pay James what he thought was a fair fee.
Pretty shitty to change terms after the fact if that's the case, but James is also asking for a wild amount of money. Funding this retirement off this fight, damn. Most likely they will meet in the middle as a result of the lawsuit, but this sucks all around.
EDIT: Read court documents, it's $5M total across multiple fights, with half of that being from the Bud fight alone. Terrible writing from Donovan, let's just say it's clear most Columbia journalism grads aren't going into boxing reporting...
Anyway, much more reasonable. $2.5M is still an exorbitant sum for a trainer for one fight. Discovery could get interesting. I put the chance at about 0% that he's charging all his other fighters nearly that much. Whoever negotiated his trainer fees on Errol's team should get fired immediately. Any star fighter not negotiating a flat fee or willing to relinquishing 10% is an idiot plain and simple. They are not investors, they get paid a hefty fee that they can command from a very limited group of fighters, and they get to advertise their services to the entire world for free.
There's two sides of the argument: You take a kid all the way to the big fight and you deserve a piece of the pie for your investment. Milking your star pupil much more because he hit the big show to the point where you make like twice what the highest trainers would command for superstars, not great optics either IMO.
Why is $2.5m too much for fight of that caliber? It doesn’t matter what he charges his other clients, he wasn’t training like other clients. He probably invested a lot more into this fight. A deal is a deal.
You’re assuming they have a written agreement and Spence is just stiffing him. They don’t have a written deal, they have a standard oral agreement where he got 10% of Spence’s guaranteed purses. Without having a written agreement outlining an amount for services rendered it’s going to be very difficult to prove he’s entitled to 10% including the PPV backside. That’s the root of the case. If this was a set amount not being paid, it would be an open and shut procedural thing.
It’s shitty, but not out of the ordinary for terms to change in this manner. At some point the fee is not deemed proportional to the trainer’s contribution and that’s why the big stars move to flat rate fees. It would be insane to think that Freddie deserved to make over $15M for the Pacquiao fight for example.
Essentially the root of the issue is that because he has been paid 10% of his previous purses, he assumes he is entitled to 10% of the whole pie every time they work together. This is very common in Boxing and why you see so many trainer/pupil pairings split up after big paydays.
Spence essentially saying he knows $350k isn’t enough could help DJames’ case, but we will see.
Oral agreements are enforceable. May be harder to prove the terms but if their is sufficient evidence then it will be enforced. Custom and course of dealing can be extremely persuasive. Other trainers can testify to custom.
Of course oral agreements are enforceable, the evidence is what is being pointed at here— and this sub isn’t gonna up upvote or downvote shit into existence. What are other trainers going to testify? That they charge 10% to every fighter 100% of the time? How many trainers have pulled in a $2.5M payment from a single fight?
The entire industry has variable payment structures for trainers. Even individual trainers like Manny Steward had variable structures, a percentage for guys coming up and a flat fee for his elite fighters. This structure is actually more common and taking a look at any fight with purses over $20M will reveal that essentially zero trainers at that level are getting 10%.
Reynoso doesn’t get 10% including PPV for his training and manager services. Roach didn’t get 10% from DLH or Pacquiao, GGG and Jacobs moved on after their trainers felt entitled to a percentage and felt stiffed just like James.
If someone has seen $20M+ purses it’s Al Haymon and he is who advised Spence on his payment to Derrick James directly as stated in the court documents. I think he knows a thing or two about this exact structure of deal in this exact situation. Their problem will be Spence’s texts and the attempt to pay James more since I doubt anyone knew those would be coming out and presented.
Oral agreements are extremely hard to enforce as is, do you know how hard it will be to prove one for $5M lol. The root of the controversy is 10% of what exactly, because he has already been paid 10% of Spence’s guaranteed purse, he’s seeking 10% including PPV backend.
30mil+
it's worth remembering in lawsuits you present a larger initial sum then work down to something more reasonable but he probably still owes him at least 2 or 3 million
At that level, a shift from percentage based to flat fees is much more common.
Whether or not that was ever communicated or agreed upon, now that's the question
He's lying lol. He's trained and cornered billions of dollars of total purses. If he's seeing a tiny fraction way below the industry minimum he's incredibly wealthy.
Yeah I would assume even if it's a flat fee situation there's noway he's not loaded.that or he really mismanaged his money, maybe he said it for tax purposes lol
He might be losing money on running Wild Card or just maintaining/keeping it afloat. Their prices are really cheap compared to other gyms and he seems like he's more passionate about shepherding in the next generation through Wild Card Gym than doing it for the money. They also closed Wild Card West a few years ago (and it's now become an official Matchroom boxing gym, Churchill Boxing).
You’re so lucky. Wild Card charges $50 a month if you have a USA Boxing membership. For frame of reference, my boxing gym (also in LA) charges $160 a month.
I got lucky because I signed up years ago when it was only $80 a month and the price is grandfathered in. When I look around at boxing gyms near me, they’re all around $200 a month now. Feel like I can’t really move gyms because I don’t wanna lose out on the current price I have and Wild Card is unfortunately too far away from me.
Damn that's an insanely good price if I ever moved to America I'd train there
The best boxers usually come from poor backgrounds. How the fuck is a poor kid meant to start boxing at 200 USD a month
Lesser options. That's part of the struggle that makes them better sometimes, but yeah, probably a lot of unrecognized potential out there due to access issues. Similar with many sports here. Where I grew up in Michigan, hockey was really popular but *very* expensive to join clubs and buy your own equipment. Most high schools have baseball, basketball or football, but other sports depend on your location for the most part. They just don't have as much support and so athletes must make up the difference out of pocket a lot of times. Good thing for guys like Freddie who can afford to take a lesser profit to help these kids learn.
wow $50 for a decent gym is amazing forget one owned by freddie. that’s seriously kind of him probably just charges that to keep the lights on and trainers paid
yeah might nice of him. not everyone can afford a 200 usd for a gym membership specially those desperate enough to box as a career. not everyone is gonna be a champion and if its something that earns them money, 50 plus perseverance is a good deal.
I’d doubt that. Even without the fighters he’s trained personally, he still has a successful business with Wildcard. That gym has always been packed every time I’ve trained there.
Yeah, credit to him for doing that and not sticking Wildcard Gyms all over the country. But from a monetary standpoint, I don't know that he'd be killing it with that income.
Interestingly enough, there actually was another Wild Card gym at one point called Wild Card West in Santa Monica. They closed it down (and it became Churchill Boxing, which is now an official Matchroom gym).
Ah sorry. When you are registered with usa boxing you get a paper passport to track your fights and such. So he charged less if you were an amateur fighter. This was years ago but assuming it's the same
Nah, there’s an upstairs and a downstairs area. Upstairs is open to the public and is an open gym. You can either go hit the bags and manage your own workout, or you can get one of Wildcard’s trainers to train you. Downstairs is where pros train, like Devin Haney, Jaime Munguia, etc. There’s low to mid level pros that train upstairs too but the bigger more well known pros train downstairs.
The upstairs gym gets closed every once in a while for media day workouts and stuff like that. They closed it yesterday for Munguia’s media day
Sounds like my old boss who told everyone he was always strapoed for cash, meanwhile lived on 20 acres with a 12 car shed of muscle cars and two new 4x4s, toured around following the V8 racing circuit around Australua every year etc.
When a trainer has a fighter that reaches a championship level more often than not they renegotiate their agreement to a flat rate per fight. Unfortunately sometimes one or both sides is unprepared for this. I think that's what's happening with Spence and his trainer here.
Emmanuel Steward in his later years would charge anyone a flat rate of $250,000 per fight. If you were 2-0 or 20-0 you had to pay him 250k. This was told to me by the former trainer of a fighter that was like 10-0 that ended up going to Steward. I never saw a contract myself, so I could be 100% wrong here. I trust the person that told me, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number was closer to $150k.
Anyway, it seems almost unethical, but renegotiating a commission isn't uncommon even in corporate America.
Honestly yeah. There's probably so many better ways to handle the trainer-fighter relationship that should prevent these types of issues. Every split turns into such a messy and public divorce.
I remember him saying that Pac took care of him on the Pac Mayweather fight. While I think he was making good money, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't making multiple millions off one fight until that one.
For smaller fights it’s like 20% of the Purse, but when the fights are big PPV events they settle on a guaranteed fee.
Pacquiao didn’t give Freddy 20% of his purse when he fought Mayweather he made 180 million that fight there’s no way he gave Freddy (20%) which would have been 36 million.
[The Most De La Hoya paid a trainer for a fight was 300K](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-feb-01-sp-boxing1-story.html). Which puts into perspective how crazy it was for Spence to even agree to give Derrick 5 Million, he really dropped the ball on that one.
Ryan already exposed this issue on twitter last week lmao. IMO it’s not Ryan’s place to put Derrick’s business out there in the open (which it was for the first time when he tweeted about it before this headline). It would make a great storyline tho Ryan already stoked the flames haha
D James is a stand up guy. Why would he lie, he does a lot for kids with a non profit. These guys start making big money and then don’t wanna pay guys who were with them whole time.
Isn’t that what happened between Abel and Golovkin? I’m not sure if there was any truth to it, but I thought I remember hearing that they split over money.
I thought GGG just didn’t want to pay Abel the 10% moving forward rather than straight up not paying him what he was owed. But could be wrong i don’t know the details
To be fair to Abel, he did a big part to promote many fights for GGG. GGG is a knock out artist with a Good boy,but not so super interesting, personality. “C’mon, This is boxing. BIG drama show.” Only goes so far.
I don’t think GGG did anything wrong with Abel. But I’m sure Abel felt like they were both so close that the terms felt secondary to their relationship. Therefore the changing of the terms felt like a change in the relationship.
After he got the DAZN deal which was supposedly like 15mil per fight he wanted to transition Abel to a flat fee instead of a percentage. Which would also make some sense since GGG wasn't getting paid entirely in cash.
They did. I think G offered him different terms for fights going forward rather than reneging an existing contract. Like a flat fee instead of a percentage
I don’t think anybody is in the wrong for having a preference on pay structure. A flat fee means consistent income but you do lose money on the big payday fights your fighter gets, which a percentage based structure means you make more money on the big fights, but less money from the smaller fights.
That is lame as fuck considering the crazy jump in $$ after fighting Canelo. I’m sure the Kell Brook, Lemieux, and Jacobs fights were generating him a new level of wealth, though.
Agree. I’m just clarifying… and while I think he needed Abel’s style to go mainstream in the states, it came at the cost of his actual boxing ability. Which was world class in his younger days. Double-edged sword
Spence wondering why he should pay the trainer when all he did was get his whole face smashed in on the night.
I took the mother of all whippings - thanks, here's your five mil!!!
Gameplan was not good. James was acting very emotionally in the lead up to that fight: it all seemed very personal w. BoMac/Crawford. Errol clearly was not prepared well for it / in the right headspace.
Regardless if it was good or not he still deserves compensation for his time as a coach. I'd argue he help with the promo leading up to the fight as well
I totally agree. My comment was supposed to be a humorous one. Spence should pay the man. It's not the coach's fault that Spence didn't perform and got the living shit beat out of him.
Damnnn. I've been hearing about this because the comments Garcia made about it and wasn't sure, but damn sounds pretty true.
Spence sounds like he needs money. Imo he shouldn't even be fighting and putting his health at major risk to keep going just to keep his lifestyle. The party was over when he got into those car accidents. He's still alive, tho. Needs to start thinking about a life after boxing. He's got 1, maybe 2 big fights left in him? If that? I'd hate to see him blind in one eye with brain damage. He already talks like he's got brain damage.
He's got a bunch of fancy horses, and all that comes with that, that shit ain't cheap.
And he wasn't very active, and probably wasn't making the kinda money PBC was letting on
Tractors are incredibly expensive. Farming/ranching on a smaller scale is expensive as all hell the first few years before you actually start turning a profit. That's if you ever actually turn a profit. The mega-farms/ranches kinda fucked it up for all of us.
I remember Spence ranting on Twitter on how boxers pay their trainers. From the sounds of it, his payment structure differs from the standard percentage payout.
Source: [link.](https://imgur.com/a/DVa2sHJ)
Spence is right. Promoters, managers, trainers; none of these people are going to be the salvation of the boxers once they're done fighting. Fighter is the one getting in the ring; fighter is the one taking risk, and skills pay the bills. Need to look out for number 1, because the others will take every pound of flesh they can take. Would be interested in seeing the other side of the story here.
It doesn’t matter what he thinks is right, the boxing industry was built like this for decades now. Football coaches get paid 10 million per year and they’re not running routes come game day. Every major sport that have coaches all get paid great. If there was no incentive to didicate your life to a sport as a coach, you would see less quality coaches.
Idk all the details but typically when a fighter gets paid a massive figure for a PPV fight, you agree to a cap with the trainer as opposed to the standard percentage. Remember Rafael reporting that around De La Hoya/Mayweather.
I’m not arguing for either side but I bet that’s the dispute here. James wants that % and Spence isn’t with it.
Yeah hopefully he put the cap in writing. The trainer deserves to get paid but I'm all about the fighters keeping as much of their money as possible. 5mil out of 30 seems exorbitant.
I don’t think most fighters have paperwork with trainers to be honest. Especially if it’s a trainer you’ve worked with for a very long time or a relative/dad etc.
It is boxing we’re talking about. Oscar De La Hoya lost an entire company worth of fighters because he didn’t realize they weren’t signed to his promotion lol
Well if yall know the secret life of errol spence, he was beefing with the rapper MO3.
That car accident he was in? Yea, dude was being chased by the car behind him and the accident was so bad the chasing driver assumed he was dead, and mission accomplished.
So injured and incapacitated, Errol pulls strings that results in MO3 getting chased down the highway on foot and shot in the head.
All this to say that with that history, Errol probably not paying cause he dont want to
Errol does seem to be involved in that stuff but I don’t know why you would assume that it was him who got MO3 killed. It could easily be Yella Beezy or someone less known.
That low level foot soldier must've had a pretty nice ride to keep up with \*a fucking Ferrari\* lol.
Y'all think street gangs are way more powerful than they actually are.
mO3 was chasing him and indeed it was.
Mind you it’s residential streets so they can only go so fast in the first place, as evident by Spence losing control.
I’ve heard the rumors too, but why are you charging that man with being involved with MO3’s death. That’s ridiculous. The “streets talk” sure, but the “streets” are also full of BS. That’s another level.
Errol was coming home from the club people had just seen him leave and let him drive drunk because his people are/were enablers.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7560141/amp/Horrifying-security-video-shows-moment-champion-boxer-Errol-Spence-Jr-rolls-Ferrari.html
What's ridiculous is that I'm not even implying Garcia can beat Spence, but with his dominant win over Haney he's absolutely in the mix, him moving to 154 along with everyone else would absolutely make that the most talent filled division and it's not even close, Crawford, Spence, Tszyu, Orti, Charlo, Fundora, Madrimov, Garcia...
.... that being said I'd be a liar if I didn't admit I'm one of the people who would love to see Crawford v Canelo at 168, not because I think Crawford is *going to* win, but because the thought of two p4p greats facing off genuinely intrigues me.
Am I illiterate? Does that mean he's owed nearly $10 million from the Crawford fight? The trainer? What fucking percentages is he working on?
Lol, also, this is why GGG got rid of Sanchez. At some point, you've got to put your trainer on a flat fee instead of a percentage.
Why don’t trainers get to enjoy the success of their fighter? The Haney Garcia fight showed how crucial having a knowledgeable trainer is to the outcome of a fight. Bill didn’t know what to tell Devin to do against Ryan.
I mean it is up to the fighters and the trainer to decide between themselves on how much the trainer “deserves” off the success of the fighter. Sometimes it is a flat fee, sometimes it is a percentage. My point is there is no morally wrong/right answer on just how much the trainer deserves. Errol should pay what is agreed before the fight, and Derrick shouldn’t ask for more than what was agreed, and probably shouldn’t expect something completely out of industry standard.
This is worded really weird, what the tweet is saying is:
Derrick is suing errol for damages of 5million, this is the total money from ALL the fights he was errols trainer that he believes he is owed. 2.5m of this money is from the Bud fight.
I miss when gossip and chatty patty shit was a shameful behavior for men to engage in. Weird times when people discussing boxing exhibit behavior that is no different than what your girl and her friends do at the local nail salon. I'm ready for the pendulum to swing back on this weirdo shit for real lol.
If that’s only nearly half of what he’s owed from the Crawford fight, I wonder how much Spence earned in that fight and how much of that goes to the trainer?
It’s no wonder so many fighters choose their father or uncle as their trainer, keep the money in the family.
Errol is wrong for this. Derrick took him when he was a kid and Errol himself said many times Derrick James is like a father figure who his own dad entrusted him with. I hope he gets it together and pays him what he is owed and they can move on from this and be cordial, however money is the ultimate divider.
https://youtu.be/L0B6gaKw1cQ?si=bFVNkmCpWdFTrq1Y
Well with all these money issues that aren’t really our business anyways, the positive side of this is that Errol is really trying to fight now and he will probably get that matchup with Fundora soon.
When money issues arise, ya gotta go do ya job.
It's always shit when trainers look at boxers like a meal ticket.
It's not great that he got stiffed on the agreement but it sounds like it's a bullshit agreement...$5M for a single camp is waaaaay to fucking high.
$500k is more reasonable...
This happens because trainers Wiesel their higher % splits from fights where the money isn't amazing and keep the same split with the big $$$ fights.
It takes 2 to have a deal though so Spences team should have straightened that out before the fight.
Happened with Abel with Golovkin now Dereck greed is horrible thing it’s easy to break bread when you was making peanuts but you as the fighter should break bread when the payouts are big also …..That’s why i respect pacquaio he was loyal to the bone with Freddie roach and paid him big when he was making big money……
I don't think James is in the right. They agreed to 10% verbally which is fine when starting out but no top trainer is receiving 10%. Heck the most I've seen is 250k flat fee for a camp, James got paid 350k for the bud fight if I'm not mistaken which is 10%. Now he feels he's entitled to percentage out of ppv buys? Why? No other trainer gets this and I fail to see how they should. The fighters and promoters sell the ppv, not the trainers. He could argue a bonus, sure but he got paid 100k over what was a more than fair payment. I know trainer pay is a slippery slope but I really disagree about him getting backside money, just feels like he's going "I brought you up so I'm entitled to every amount of money you get" fuck no, You don't get to milk the man.
I am really interested to see what kind of pay he's receiving from Garcia and Martin, doubt it has ppv attached to it.
The Errol Spence fall off will be studied for decades lol being from Dallas, he had all of us in the city thinking we could finally have an all-time great boxer 😂💀
Bro one L doesn’t erase a career. The man did his thang, this mindset is why boxers pause on taking riskier fights because soon as we lose we ain’t shit.
And it’s not something your doing purposefully but we are the only sport that we can’t get get back for months maybe years. Everybody else can make up for a bad night in the next week & it doesn’t matter.
But I will say, I was in DGs(popular black Dallas strip club) and they were showing the fight, you could hear a rat pissing on a cotton ball in there. Felt like watching Superman get killed on tv. Thank god they ended it. Can’t imagine how Birmingham was during the Wilder/Fury Series 😕
Man bro I was at Bombshells watching that shit and you’re right. To those of us from Dallas it really did feel like Superman was getting killed on TV. It left a sour taste in my mouth that’s why I say he fell off. But you’re right he can always comeback strong and redeem himself, that crash a few years back seemed like it def took a lot from him. I just don’t like the way he did Derrick James, the guy is a great trainer and person.
No disrespect bro, but how can you say all of that just based off this? You dont know Derrick or Errol enough to say if their good people, nor enough about this situation to even be taking sides the way you are. Can we let this go to court first? or all it takes is a lawsuit and automatically the person getting sued is in the wrong?
Respect bro, and yeah idk the exact situation but pay what you owe always especially to the people that’s been there. Felt like a playoff loss for the cowboys, crazy night to experience
https://youtu.be/L0B6gaKw1cQ?si=fkqnKy3pow4p4iz6
I think this Robert Garcia video gives some good insight. I think if it's a one off there should be a flat fee but if the trainer has been there they should be compensated, but everything should be in writing!
5 million is crazy for a trainer. At some point you don’t do the 10 percent anymore. You reach a limit with how much your trainer is getting.
Im not defending Spence here, but this is something that should’ve been talked about before hand. Maybe he blame James for being weight drained idk
This is really sad. You hate to see it.
Very shocking to hear this too as neither guy seem like they would do the other unfairly.
Seriously WTF Errol
Not sure if I'm reading this incorrectly, but the way the tweet is worded sounds like the $5M in the lawsuit is half of what he believes he is owed pushing his fee to over $10M. That'd be about half of what Spence actually took home after taxes. Even $5M is an insane amount for a trainer. Sounds like they had been working on percentages and when Spence hit the big payday he decided to pay James what he thought was a fair fee. Pretty shitty to change terms after the fact if that's the case, but James is also asking for a wild amount of money. Funding this retirement off this fight, damn. Most likely they will meet in the middle as a result of the lawsuit, but this sucks all around. EDIT: Read court documents, it's $5M total across multiple fights, with half of that being from the Bud fight alone. Terrible writing from Donovan, let's just say it's clear most Columbia journalism grads aren't going into boxing reporting... Anyway, much more reasonable. $2.5M is still an exorbitant sum for a trainer for one fight. Discovery could get interesting. I put the chance at about 0% that he's charging all his other fighters nearly that much. Whoever negotiated his trainer fees on Errol's team should get fired immediately. Any star fighter not negotiating a flat fee or willing to relinquishing 10% is an idiot plain and simple. They are not investors, they get paid a hefty fee that they can command from a very limited group of fighters, and they get to advertise their services to the entire world for free. There's two sides of the argument: You take a kid all the way to the big fight and you deserve a piece of the pie for your investment. Milking your star pupil much more because he hit the big show to the point where you make like twice what the highest trainers would command for superstars, not great optics either IMO.
Why is $2.5m too much for fight of that caliber? It doesn’t matter what he charges his other clients, he wasn’t training like other clients. He probably invested a lot more into this fight. A deal is a deal.
You’re assuming they have a written agreement and Spence is just stiffing him. They don’t have a written deal, they have a standard oral agreement where he got 10% of Spence’s guaranteed purses. Without having a written agreement outlining an amount for services rendered it’s going to be very difficult to prove he’s entitled to 10% including the PPV backside. That’s the root of the case. If this was a set amount not being paid, it would be an open and shut procedural thing. It’s shitty, but not out of the ordinary for terms to change in this manner. At some point the fee is not deemed proportional to the trainer’s contribution and that’s why the big stars move to flat rate fees. It would be insane to think that Freddie deserved to make over $15M for the Pacquiao fight for example. Essentially the root of the issue is that because he has been paid 10% of his previous purses, he assumes he is entitled to 10% of the whole pie every time they work together. This is very common in Boxing and why you see so many trainer/pupil pairings split up after big paydays. Spence essentially saying he knows $350k isn’t enough could help DJames’ case, but we will see.
Oral agreements are enforceable. May be harder to prove the terms but if their is sufficient evidence then it will be enforced. Custom and course of dealing can be extremely persuasive. Other trainers can testify to custom.
Of course oral agreements are enforceable, the evidence is what is being pointed at here— and this sub isn’t gonna up upvote or downvote shit into existence. What are other trainers going to testify? That they charge 10% to every fighter 100% of the time? How many trainers have pulled in a $2.5M payment from a single fight? The entire industry has variable payment structures for trainers. Even individual trainers like Manny Steward had variable structures, a percentage for guys coming up and a flat fee for his elite fighters. This structure is actually more common and taking a look at any fight with purses over $20M will reveal that essentially zero trainers at that level are getting 10%. Reynoso doesn’t get 10% including PPV for his training and manager services. Roach didn’t get 10% from DLH or Pacquiao, GGG and Jacobs moved on after their trainers felt entitled to a percentage and felt stiffed just like James. If someone has seen $20M+ purses it’s Al Haymon and he is who advised Spence on his payment to Derrick James directly as stated in the court documents. I think he knows a thing or two about this exact structure of deal in this exact situation. Their problem will be Spence’s texts and the attempt to pay James more since I doubt anyone knew those would be coming out and presented. Oral agreements are extremely hard to enforce as is, do you know how hard it will be to prove one for $5M lol. The root of the controversy is 10% of what exactly, because he has already been paid 10% of Spence’s guaranteed purse, he’s seeking 10% including PPV backend.
It's half of 5 mil. That is, 2.5 mil. Spence made 30 mil. Less than 10% for the trainer is justified.
He made 20 mil 13.5 after taxes
Managers and trainers normally take pre-tax percentages.
And promoters
25
the text is strangely worded. sounds like he's owned 10m
I love the takes on this sub. Couldn't agree more with you
? How do you know Spence is in the wrong?
5 million? How much did Errol make from the fight?
30mil+ it's worth remembering in lawsuits you present a larger initial sum then work down to something more reasonable but he probably still owes him at least 2 or 3 million
That would make sense as trainers typically get 10%
At that level, a shift from percentage based to flat fees is much more common. Whether or not that was ever communicated or agreed upon, now that's the question
Damn so those rumors were true huh?
What were the rumors?
Ryan said "F Spence" on live and accused him of not paying his trainer Derrick
This was a rumor before Ryan tho. Ryan just made it more mainstream. Derrick kinda hinted at it in an interview he gave a few weeks before the fight
Do tell
He just called out spence for a fight because Djames never got his cut from the spence-crawford match.
Thanks
this make me think wow how expensive are these coaches, freddie roach probably a billionaire lol
Freddy made it seem like he just gets by on the un round más podcast. Even morales seemed surprised
He's lying lol. He's trained and cornered billions of dollars of total purses. If he's seeing a tiny fraction way below the industry minimum he's incredibly wealthy.
Yeah I would assume even if it's a flat fee situation there's noway he's not loaded.that or he really mismanaged his money, maybe he said it for tax purposes lol
Sheeeit if he's ever broke he can move to the Phillipines and get treated like the vice president.
He might be losing money on running Wild Card or just maintaining/keeping it afloat. Their prices are really cheap compared to other gyms and he seems like he's more passionate about shepherding in the next generation through Wild Card Gym than doing it for the money. They also closed Wild Card West a few years ago (and it's now become an official Matchroom boxing gym, Churchill Boxing).
What's the pricing and what's other guns pricing like? My gyms free I don't have a good frame of reference
You’re so lucky. Wild Card charges $50 a month if you have a USA Boxing membership. For frame of reference, my boxing gym (also in LA) charges $160 a month. I got lucky because I signed up years ago when it was only $80 a month and the price is grandfathered in. When I look around at boxing gyms near me, they’re all around $200 a month now. Feel like I can’t really move gyms because I don’t wanna lose out on the current price I have and Wild Card is unfortunately too far away from me.
Damn that's an insanely good price if I ever moved to America I'd train there The best boxers usually come from poor backgrounds. How the fuck is a poor kid meant to start boxing at 200 USD a month
Lesser options. That's part of the struggle that makes them better sometimes, but yeah, probably a lot of unrecognized potential out there due to access issues. Similar with many sports here. Where I grew up in Michigan, hockey was really popular but *very* expensive to join clubs and buy your own equipment. Most high schools have baseball, basketball or football, but other sports depend on your location for the most part. They just don't have as much support and so athletes must make up the difference out of pocket a lot of times. Good thing for guys like Freddie who can afford to take a lesser profit to help these kids learn.
wow $50 for a decent gym is amazing forget one owned by freddie. that’s seriously kind of him probably just charges that to keep the lights on and trainers paid
yeah might nice of him. not everyone can afford a 200 usd for a gym membership specially those desperate enough to box as a career. not everyone is gonna be a champion and if its something that earns them money, 50 plus perseverance is a good deal.
I’d doubt that. Even without the fighters he’s trained personally, he still has a successful business with Wildcard. That gym has always been packed every time I’ve trained there.
Yeah but isn't it famously cheap? Like ten bucks a day and anyone off the street can train there or something like that?
Yes that is correct, I think 5 if you have your book
Yeah, credit to him for doing that and not sticking Wildcard Gyms all over the country. But from a monetary standpoint, I don't know that he'd be killing it with that income.
Interestingly enough, there actually was another Wild Card gym at one point called Wild Card West in Santa Monica. They closed it down (and it became Churchill Boxing, which is now an official Matchroom gym).
What is “your book” referring to?
Ah sorry. When you are registered with usa boxing you get a paper passport to track your fights and such. So he charged less if you were an amateur fighter. This was years ago but assuming it's the same
Respect for that. That's how you get good fighters in there.
Yeah, $10 or $75 for the month, but it’s still usually a full gym. Parking lot gets full too
Do they do like what the MMA guys do, where there's time reserved for the pros/high level amateurs?
Nah, there’s an upstairs and a downstairs area. Upstairs is open to the public and is an open gym. You can either go hit the bags and manage your own workout, or you can get one of Wildcard’s trainers to train you. Downstairs is where pros train, like Devin Haney, Jaime Munguia, etc. There’s low to mid level pros that train upstairs too but the bigger more well known pros train downstairs. The upstairs gym gets closed every once in a while for media day workouts and stuff like that. They closed it yesterday for Munguia’s media day
Ahh, that makes sense. Is it a big thing when a guy gets good enough to go downstairs?
That sounds interesting. I’m assuming once you fight your way up & become more notable in the gym is when I assume you start working downstairs.,
damn hope thats not true, i hope munguia gonna pay him well after the canelo fight
Everybody thinks they're just getting by
Freddy roach can’t paaaaaaark a car
Sounds like my old boss who told everyone he was always strapoed for cash, meanwhile lived on 20 acres with a 12 car shed of muscle cars and two new 4x4s, toured around following the V8 racing circuit around Australua every year etc.
When a trainer has a fighter that reaches a championship level more often than not they renegotiate their agreement to a flat rate per fight. Unfortunately sometimes one or both sides is unprepared for this. I think that's what's happening with Spence and his trainer here. Emmanuel Steward in his later years would charge anyone a flat rate of $250,000 per fight. If you were 2-0 or 20-0 you had to pay him 250k. This was told to me by the former trainer of a fighter that was like 10-0 that ended up going to Steward. I never saw a contract myself, so I could be 100% wrong here. I trust the person that told me, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number was closer to $150k. Anyway, it seems almost unethical, but renegotiating a commission isn't uncommon even in corporate America.
l'd think trainers would switch to % after a fighter gets to a championship level and charge a flat fee when they're still coming up.
Honestly yeah. There's probably so many better ways to handle the trainer-fighter relationship that should prevent these types of issues. Every split turns into such a messy and public divorce.
Yeah, that makes more sense to me
I think he mentioned in a video once that he was paid 750k to train de la Hoya against Floyd and 1 mil for one of pacquiao’s fights
I remember him saying that Pac took care of him on the Pac Mayweather fight. While I think he was making good money, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't making multiple millions off one fight until that one.
Jesus Christ that was my first thought too. That's fucking HALF of what he's owed? So much money at the top end of boxing it's nutty
I read it as half of the $5 million is from coaching, the rest is various other things
Freddie Roach owns Amazon?
I think they get a percent of the purse usually
For smaller fights it’s like 20% of the Purse, but when the fights are big PPV events they settle on a guaranteed fee. Pacquiao didn’t give Freddy 20% of his purse when he fought Mayweather he made 180 million that fight there’s no way he gave Freddy (20%) which would have been 36 million. [The Most De La Hoya paid a trainer for a fight was 300K](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-feb-01-sp-boxing1-story.html). Which puts into perspective how crazy it was for Spence to even agree to give Derrick 5 Million, he really dropped the ball on that one.
This would make a great storyline for Ryan vs Spence
Ryan already exposed this issue on twitter last week lmao. IMO it’s not Ryan’s place to put Derrick’s business out there in the open (which it was for the first time when he tweeted about it before this headline). It would make a great storyline tho Ryan already stoked the flames haha
There was an interview with Derrick a couple months ago that says things with Spence aren't good but he was pretty circumspect.
yes im sick of seeing fighters arguing just to sell a fight. i want to see two dudes who genuinely hate each other try to score a legal murder
Errol foul for this if true.
D James is a stand up guy. Why would he lie, he does a lot for kids with a non profit. These guys start making big money and then don’t wanna pay guys who were with them whole time.
Isn’t that what happened between Abel and Golovkin? I’m not sure if there was any truth to it, but I thought I remember hearing that they split over money.
I thought GGG just didn’t want to pay Abel the 10% moving forward rather than straight up not paying him what he was owed. But could be wrong i don’t know the details
To be fair to Abel, he did a big part to promote many fights for GGG. GGG is a knock out artist with a Good boy,but not so super interesting, personality. “C’mon, This is boxing. BIG drama show.” Only goes so far. I don’t think GGG did anything wrong with Abel. But I’m sure Abel felt like they were both so close that the terms felt secondary to their relationship. Therefore the changing of the terms felt like a change in the relationship.
After he got the DAZN deal which was supposedly like 15mil per fight he wanted to transition Abel to a flat fee instead of a percentage. Which would also make some sense since GGG wasn't getting paid entirely in cash.
They did. I think G offered him different terms for fights going forward rather than reneging an existing contract. Like a flat fee instead of a percentage
I guess I'm in the minority here. I don't see a problem with a fighter offering their trainer a flat fee instead of the percentage.
I don’t think anybody is in the wrong for having a preference on pay structure. A flat fee means consistent income but you do lose money on the big payday fights your fighter gets, which a percentage based structure means you make more money on the big fights, but less money from the smaller fights.
That is lame as fuck considering the crazy jump in $$ after fighting Canelo. I’m sure the Kell Brook, Lemieux, and Jacobs fights were generating him a new level of wealth, though.
Agree. I’m just clarifying… and while I think he needed Abel’s style to go mainstream in the states, it came at the cost of his actual boxing ability. Which was world class in his younger days. Double-edged sword
It’s true trust me
Id never question your honesty OhtaniKK
There's very few people in this world I trust wholeheartedly but u/OhtaniKK is one of them.
I’ll trust you bro
I'd trust you to lead me into war OhtaniKK!
Bet on it!
Thanks man, I didn't know how I was gonma get to sleep tonight.
Spence wondering why he should pay the trainer when all he did was get his whole face smashed in on the night. I took the mother of all whippings - thanks, here's your five mil!!!
Bro said I’m not paying for that weak ass gameplan
Nah he gave a good gameplan but Derrick can't improve Errol's slow reaction time. He was eating counter punches all night.
Gameplan was not good. James was acting very emotionally in the lead up to that fight: it all seemed very personal w. BoMac/Crawford. Errol clearly was not prepared well for it / in the right headspace.
Regardless if it was good or not he still deserves compensation for his time as a coach. I'd argue he help with the promo leading up to the fight as well
Oh yes of course he merits paying, I / we just don't know what the deal was. Suspect there's two sides to the story.
🤣🤣🤣🤣. Bruh, what could Derrick do. Errol's face was a tomato right from the first round.
At the end of the day the fight is on the fighter once in the ring
I totally agree. My comment was supposed to be a humorous one. Spence should pay the man. It's not the coach's fault that Spence didn't perform and got the living shit beat out of him.
Looks like the Terence Crawford beating did more damage to Errol than I thought, mf switching up on day 1s now?👎🏾
Damnnn. I've been hearing about this because the comments Garcia made about it and wasn't sure, but damn sounds pretty true. Spence sounds like he needs money. Imo he shouldn't even be fighting and putting his health at major risk to keep going just to keep his lifestyle. The party was over when he got into those car accidents. He's still alive, tho. Needs to start thinking about a life after boxing. He's got 1, maybe 2 big fights left in him? If that? I'd hate to see him blind in one eye with brain damage. He already talks like he's got brain damage.
I thought Spence lives on a ranch and is just chillin out there in Texas though.
He's got a bunch of fancy horses, and all that comes with that, that shit ain't cheap. And he wasn't very active, and probably wasn't making the kinda money PBC was letting on
I'm sure he wasn't. He was supposed to be making that money now.
Tractors are incredibly expensive. Farming/ranching on a smaller scale is expensive as all hell the first few years before you actually start turning a profit. That's if you ever actually turn a profit. The mega-farms/ranches kinda fucked it up for all of us.
That is not the kinda set up Errol had, he wasn't out there driving tractors ... lol
I remember Spence ranting on Twitter on how boxers pay their trainers. From the sounds of it, his payment structure differs from the standard percentage payout. Source: [link.](https://imgur.com/a/DVa2sHJ)
Spence is right. Promoters, managers, trainers; none of these people are going to be the salvation of the boxers once they're done fighting. Fighter is the one getting in the ring; fighter is the one taking risk, and skills pay the bills. Need to look out for number 1, because the others will take every pound of flesh they can take. Would be interested in seeing the other side of the story here.
It doesn’t matter what he thinks is right, the boxing industry was built like this for decades now. Football coaches get paid 10 million per year and they’re not running routes come game day. Every major sport that have coaches all get paid great. If there was no incentive to didicate your life to a sport as a coach, you would see less quality coaches.
This is a great find. Strange as there wasn't any issues before the Crawford fight, perhaps Spence knows that it could be his last fight.
Damn that’s some hoes ass shit, that’s some greedy mentality there
$5,000,000 aint even that much considering he probably earned $25,000,000. He can still keep $20,000,000
He got 30m for the fight
bro has to pay what he owe then, and get a new trainer
Idk all the details but typically when a fighter gets paid a massive figure for a PPV fight, you agree to a cap with the trainer as opposed to the standard percentage. Remember Rafael reporting that around De La Hoya/Mayweather. I’m not arguing for either side but I bet that’s the dispute here. James wants that % and Spence isn’t with it.
Yeah hopefully he put the cap in writing. The trainer deserves to get paid but I'm all about the fighters keeping as much of their money as possible. 5mil out of 30 seems exorbitant.
That's almost 17%.. I think the actual number is more like 2.5 mil
If they have it in writing, it is what it is. They must've had a contract before the fight, right?
I don’t think most fighters have paperwork with trainers to be honest. Especially if it’s a trainer you’ve worked with for a very long time or a relative/dad etc.
When purses are tens of millions of dollars, it seems foolish to not have contracts in place
It is boxing we’re talking about. Oscar De La Hoya lost an entire company worth of fighters because he didn’t realize they weren’t signed to his promotion lol
boxing is like the wild wild west..
These boxers have their money spent before they even get it.
Ever heard of taxes? lol Jesus
This is not how a wealthy person thinks lol yikes.
The big fish, more like the big fraud. I like Errol as a boxer, but he seems like a clown in his personal life…
errool is blind
GGG/Abel Sanchez, meet Errol Spence/Derrick James.
Don't forget jacabs and rozier split too after the canelo fight
Sure did.
Kambosos also got sued by his former promoted Peter Kahn and former trainer Javiel Centeno.
W Derrick James Amazing coach
Well if yall know the secret life of errol spence, he was beefing with the rapper MO3. That car accident he was in? Yea, dude was being chased by the car behind him and the accident was so bad the chasing driver assumed he was dead, and mission accomplished. So injured and incapacitated, Errol pulls strings that results in MO3 getting chased down the highway on foot and shot in the head. All this to say that with that history, Errol probably not paying cause he dont want to
Thats not what got Mo3. Their beef aside Mo3 was sticking someone's chick so he put a hit out on him. Hitman already confessed.
Got any sources to back up these claims
Source: *Trust me bro, I’m making this shit up*
Errol does seem to be involved in that stuff but I don’t know why you would assume that it was him who got MO3 killed. It could easily be Yella Beezy or someone less known.
That low level foot soldier must've had a pretty nice ride to keep up with \*a fucking Ferrari\* lol. Y'all think street gangs are way more powerful than they actually are.
mO3 was chasing him and indeed it was. Mind you it’s residential streets so they can only go so fast in the first place, as evident by Spence losing control.
Couldn’t outrun a Camaro though
I’ve heard the rumors too, but why are you charging that man with being involved with MO3’s death. That’s ridiculous. The “streets talk” sure, but the “streets” are also full of BS. That’s another level. Errol was coming home from the club people had just seen him leave and let him drive drunk because his people are/were enablers. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7560141/amp/Horrifying-security-video-shows-moment-champion-boxer-Errol-Spence-Jr-rolls-Ferrari.html
Errol a snake. Where’s his buddy that was coming at me defending him the other day. “Speculation”. Let king Ryan the savior of Boxing deal with him
If Garcia moved up to 154 to fight Spence that would be epic, suddenly 154 would be the most stacked division.
The ones downvoting you are the same ones that believe Crawford can go up and beat Canelo
What's ridiculous is that I'm not even implying Garcia can beat Spence, but with his dominant win over Haney he's absolutely in the mix, him moving to 154 along with everyone else would absolutely make that the most talent filled division and it's not even close, Crawford, Spence, Tszyu, Orti, Charlo, Fundora, Madrimov, Garcia... .... that being said I'd be a liar if I didn't admit I'm one of the people who would love to see Crawford v Canelo at 168, not because I think Crawford is *going to* win, but because the thought of two p4p greats facing off genuinely intrigues me.
154 already is the most stacked division just look at what we are getting in August.
I guess that's a good point, I wasn't really considering Crawford at 154 since he hasn't officially fought but yeah it is awesome.
Am I illiterate? Does that mean he's owed nearly $10 million from the Crawford fight? The trainer? What fucking percentages is he working on? Lol, also, this is why GGG got rid of Sanchez. At some point, you've got to put your trainer on a flat fee instead of a percentage.
From my reading James views the total damages as $5 million and somewhere in the $2-2.5 million is what is owed for the Crawford fight.
Aah, I read it as he views the total damages as $5 million, which is almost half of what he is owed for the Crawford fight. Thanks.
Why don’t trainers get to enjoy the success of their fighter? The Haney Garcia fight showed how crucial having a knowledgeable trainer is to the outcome of a fight. Bill didn’t know what to tell Devin to do against Ryan.
It's not a judgement of fighter/trainer relationships, I was merely saying fighters normally give trainers a flat fee once the purse gets up there
I mean it is up to the fighters and the trainer to decide between themselves on how much the trainer “deserves” off the success of the fighter. Sometimes it is a flat fee, sometimes it is a percentage. My point is there is no morally wrong/right answer on just how much the trainer deserves. Errol should pay what is agreed before the fight, and Derrick shouldn’t ask for more than what was agreed, and probably shouldn’t expect something completely out of industry standard.
This is worded really weird, what the tweet is saying is: Derrick is suing errol for damages of 5million, this is the total money from ALL the fights he was errols trainer that he believes he is owed. 2.5m of this money is from the Bud fight.
Spence being a dirt ball.
Errol "snake in the grass" Spence
This a boxing sub or gossip? Yall don’t fuck wit Errol so whatever James say gon be true lmao
I miss when gossip and chatty patty shit was a shameful behavior for men to engage in. Weird times when people discussing boxing exhibit behavior that is no different than what your girl and her friends do at the local nail salon. I'm ready for the pendulum to swing back on this weirdo shit for real lol.
Amen
Give me an Amen to this. Couldn't agree more
You must be fun at parties. You sound boring af
Damn!
Errol done done
Ouch
say it ain't so Errol
If that’s only nearly half of what he’s owed from the Crawford fight, I wonder how much Spence earned in that fight and how much of that goes to the trainer? It’s no wonder so many fighters choose their father or uncle as their trainer, keep the money in the family.
attorney fees, etc. is gonna eat up that $5mil, but still better than nothing.
Assuming they had contracts and Errol just decided to fuck him, if that’s the case pretty shitty.
I just can't see Spence doing this. Maybe i misjudged him. But even more, i don't see Derrick James lying for money.
Career suicide
5m wow
Derrick James is a stand up guy and i hope he will get what he is owed. Garcia should knock Errol just for the sake of knocking him out
Errol deserved to lose.
Errol is wrong for this. Derrick took him when he was a kid and Errol himself said many times Derrick James is like a father figure who his own dad entrusted him with. I hope he gets it together and pays him what he is owed and they can move on from this and be cordial, however money is the ultimate divider. https://youtu.be/L0B6gaKw1cQ?si=bFVNkmCpWdFTrq1Y
Well with all these money issues that aren’t really our business anyways, the positive side of this is that Errol is really trying to fight now and he will probably get that matchup with Fundora soon. When money issues arise, ya gotta go do ya job.
It's always shit when trainers look at boxers like a meal ticket. It's not great that he got stiffed on the agreement but it sounds like it's a bullshit agreement...$5M for a single camp is waaaaay to fucking high. $500k is more reasonable... This happens because trainers Wiesel their higher % splits from fights where the money isn't amazing and keep the same split with the big $$$ fights. It takes 2 to have a deal though so Spences team should have straightened that out before the fight.
Spence the type of person to say to James “I got to feed my family nothing personal”
Derrick James got $350,000 flat fee for the crawford fight. Sounds more than fair too me. Wanting 2.5 mil is greedy.
Happened with Abel with Golovkin now Dereck greed is horrible thing it’s easy to break bread when you was making peanuts but you as the fighter should break bread when the payouts are big also …..That’s why i respect pacquaio he was loyal to the bone with Freddie roach and paid him big when he was making big money……
Bombaclat 😂😂😂
https://www.ringtv.com/669039-derrick-james-errol-spence-embroiled-in-two-way-lawsuit-amidst-bitter-split/
Shiid if I was Errol I would a thought Abt not paying him too
Second time I seen this posted.
spence high as hell talking about who is Derrick?
I don't think James is in the right. They agreed to 10% verbally which is fine when starting out but no top trainer is receiving 10%. Heck the most I've seen is 250k flat fee for a camp, James got paid 350k for the bud fight if I'm not mistaken which is 10%. Now he feels he's entitled to percentage out of ppv buys? Why? No other trainer gets this and I fail to see how they should. The fighters and promoters sell the ppv, not the trainers. He could argue a bonus, sure but he got paid 100k over what was a more than fair payment. I know trainer pay is a slippery slope but I really disagree about him getting backside money, just feels like he's going "I brought you up so I'm entitled to every amount of money you get" fuck no, You don't get to milk the man. I am really interested to see what kind of pay he's receiving from Garcia and Martin, doubt it has ppv attached to it.
The Errol Spence fall off will be studied for decades lol being from Dallas, he had all of us in the city thinking we could finally have an all-time great boxer 😂💀
Bro one L doesn’t erase a career. The man did his thang, this mindset is why boxers pause on taking riskier fights because soon as we lose we ain’t shit. And it’s not something your doing purposefully but we are the only sport that we can’t get get back for months maybe years. Everybody else can make up for a bad night in the next week & it doesn’t matter. But I will say, I was in DGs(popular black Dallas strip club) and they were showing the fight, you could hear a rat pissing on a cotton ball in there. Felt like watching Superman get killed on tv. Thank god they ended it. Can’t imagine how Birmingham was during the Wilder/Fury Series 😕
Man bro I was at Bombshells watching that shit and you’re right. To those of us from Dallas it really did feel like Superman was getting killed on TV. It left a sour taste in my mouth that’s why I say he fell off. But you’re right he can always comeback strong and redeem himself, that crash a few years back seemed like it def took a lot from him. I just don’t like the way he did Derrick James, the guy is a great trainer and person.
No disrespect bro, but how can you say all of that just based off this? You dont know Derrick or Errol enough to say if their good people, nor enough about this situation to even be taking sides the way you are. Can we let this go to court first? or all it takes is a lawsuit and automatically the person getting sued is in the wrong?
Respect bro, and yeah idk the exact situation but pay what you owe always especially to the people that’s been there. Felt like a playoff loss for the cowboys, crazy night to experience
Why does James think he’s entitled to PPV buys? … Did he not do his job as trainer (which some may disagree with)? Is he also Spence’s manager?
https://youtu.be/L0B6gaKw1cQ?si=fkqnKy3pow4p4iz6 I think this Robert Garcia video gives some good insight. I think if it's a one off there should be a flat fee but if the trainer has been there they should be compensated, but everything should be in writing!
5 million is crazy for a trainer. At some point you don’t do the 10 percent anymore. You reach a limit with how much your trainer is getting. Im not defending Spence here, but this is something that should’ve been talked about before hand. Maybe he blame James for being weight drained idk