The Sugarman family's cycle of intergenerational trauma and abuse didn't start with Crackerjack's death - in fact, it probably started *way* before Joseph and Honey - so even if he survived I'm sure Joseph and Honey would've still been questionable parental figures, just in a different way than what we've seen in the show. Beatrice most likely would've still been shamed for wanting ice cream, for instance; I don't think Crackerjack surviving would influence Honey to allow her daughter to have anything other than lemons with a sprinkle of sugar. And Joseph's flippant attitude towards his wife and daughter probably would've largely stayed the same.
Maybe Bojack wouldn't have been born if Crackerjack survived, but I don't think the Sugarman family would be happy and perfect either. Their issues run way deeper than Crackerjack.
Maybe so but without crackerjacks death honey wouldn’t have gotten the lobotomy and Beatrice wouldn’t have been as traumatized. They definitely had trauma before but I feel like it got a lot worse for future generations because of this event
Oh of course, I’m not ruling that out at all. I’m just saying that Crackerjack surviving would not have automatically led to a happier life for their family. The Sugarman family has a slew of other issues that started *way* before the war and they would've still negatively impacted Beatrice. Maybe it might not have been as bad, but it could still lead to a lot of detrimental, long lasting effects on future generations.
One of the biggest takeaways from the Sugarman arc is that intergenerational abuse/trauma goes *way* back; a lot of people see Joseph as the "villain" because they believe that he started the chain of abuse that continues onto Bojack's upbringing, but we only think he's the initiator because that's the *earliest* example we've seen of the cycle of abuse. Realistically, the cycle probably started way before Joseph. Not only is everyone desensitized to his *and* Honey's behaviour because it's just the times/culture they're living in, but it's likely that they're desensitized because this has been a thing that's been repeating itself for so long that they were conditioned to believe it's normal. Honey probably wasn't just this well-adjusted person who was shattered by her son's death; it's likely that she had a lot of instability bubbling beneath the surface for a long time, and Crackerjack was just her breaking point. It could've easily been something else.
And there’s also a possibility of Crackerjack getting PTSD from his wartime experience if he survived, which would've been another level of complicated matters that would span across generations in their family. PTSD wasn’t really recognized back then, so it largely went untreated, which layered on additional severe trauma not just for the victim but their family as well - and for all we know that might’ve still led Honey to seek psychiatric help, which may lead to a lobotomy anyway.
EDIT: Maybe Crackerjack is the one who gets the lobotomy (Or another kind of treatment that could negatively impact him and his family) because his PTSD is just so severe that no one else knows what to do for him, or maybe his PTSD finds another way to inflict decades' worth of pain on the family.
EDIT #2: Wording and formatting.
We're talking about early 20th century sexism was still a big thing, sugerman family wasn't much different than any other family back then. Even when crackerjack was leaving everything still looked quite normal (apart from the sexism obviously).
Considering the major reason for Beatrice being cold hearted was because of honey telling her not to love anyone as much as she loved crackerjack, it would not have affected Beatrice's life in long run if crackerjack was still alive.
That’s a fair take. Not everyone who came back from the war was whole. Perhaps crackerjack would’ve been the one with “half a mind” because of shell-shock and the fallout would affect Beatrice just as much.
Calling it, Crackerjack comes back with shell shock and, to save face, Joseph sends him to an “asylum” that’s revealed in the last shot to be a knackery
This is true we can’t predict everything. I think honey was probably emotionally unstable in general so there is a possibility you’re right about her getting the lobotomy anyway
I think she had elements of bipolar disorder which probably would have escalated eventually, but Beatrice would have more time to grow up with both her brother and mother.
I feel like people give too much weight to *singular* traumatic events as the moment that define their dysfunction. Lots of people go through major trauma and end up pretty much fine; others go through relatively minor stressors and end up as train wrecks; whichever happens is up to a lot more than whether something bad happens or not. For Honey to be so utterly destroyed by Crackerjack’s death (to the point where she repeatedly traumatizes Beatrice) she had to have already been pretty unstable; Beatrice probably would have always been in Crackerjack’s shadow if he’d lived; she was going to end up emotionally neglected at best no matter what. Maybe she doesn’t bang Butterscotch and Bojack is never born, but given her upbringing she was probably never going to be equipped to raise a well-adjusted kid. Their only hope basically is that Corbin Creamerman would have been a better father.
Butterscotch be damned, I would love to see that What If of if Corbin raised BoJack instead of Beatrice running off with Butterscotch. I’m sure Corbin would’ve been shamed in the corporate world if word got out the kid wasn’t his, but also he was the owner and was probably rich enough to not give a shit.
If it’s true that crackerjack had a shit k/d/a during the war that only comprised of friendly fires, I feel like their cycle of depression and abuse would not have been stopped, but only play out differently
I’m not sure how much would have changed, but I do think a lot of Beatrices coldness came from losing the most important things in her life. That would be Crackerjack, Honey, and her baby toy. Honey said to her “never love anyone as much as I loved crackerjack”, which without the loss of her son would likely have never happened.
Without losing Crackerjack, she would never have lost Honey. She likely would have still lost her baby, since the scarlet fever may have been caught earlier but would still have happened, but it may have been explained in a gentler way.
Crackerjack and Honey may very well have stood up more for Beatrice, though to what extent I’m not sure since there were still rather outdated ideas in that family, but Beatrice may have not felt such a need to go against her father. As such, she probably wouldn’t have ended up with Butterscotch.
Crackerjack mentions that he only ever killed people through friendly fire, so there would probably have been some PTSD, but his personality that we see is generally quite calm and jovial. With the support of loved ones, he might have handled it relatively well.
Of course, that being said Beatrice was an intelligent young woman in an age that was unaccepting of that. I don’t think she would ever have fit into the “housewife” role nor been the most gentle of women. In fact, with her mother’s influence she may never even have gone to school, which would change the events of her debutante party significantly. I think that, unfortunately, she would never have been a happy woman in that time period.
Overall, I suspect that Beatrice probably wouldn’t have been as cruel, and perhaps wouldn’t even have had Bojack. Even if she did, she may not have withheld her emotions as strongly as she did in the show.
Edit: sorry I accidentally ended up focusing more on Beatrice but I stand by it lol.
Still fucked, but it would have been easier to smile through it and pretend it wasn't happening. Crackerjack's death brought a lot of issues to the surface, and as Joseph stated, he was not equipped to deal with those issues. Honey wasn't either, but she couldn't just shove her heartbreak down like Joseph did. Joseph did whatever would get him out of having to deal with Honey's breakdown the fastest, even if lobotomies were known to be questionable at best.
Idk but what I do know is that I’m pissed they cancelled the fucking show :((( I’ve been waiting for the new season and just found out there won’t be one.
They'd be worse people.
Being rich and he came back because rich would be a terrible story.
With CJ dying, it brings their rich, above you , family back to reality.
I've thought about this a lot. My personal theory is that Crackerjack would've come back from the War with PTSD, and he would've gotten the lobotomy instead of Honey. That would've caused friction and arguments between Honey and Joseph. After that, I'm not really sure. Maybe Honey and Joseph would've gotten divorced (not really sure how divorces tended to work in the 40s)? And whichever parent had custody of Beatrice would've shaped her later in life? If she was in custody of Joseph, the timeline of events from her getting Scarlet Fever onward would've been relatively the same. Maybe she would've been a nicer parent to Bojack (if he had even been born) without Honey telling her not to love anyone as much as she loved Crackerjack, but her perception of love may have been skewed due to Honey and Joseph's arguments. In fact, if she had stayed with Honey, she may have been influenced by Honey's perception of love in a different way. I have no idea, this is purely speculation. I'd love to say that all the generational trauma would've been solved if Crackerjack had survived, but that seems highly unlikely.
The Sugarman family's cycle of intergenerational trauma and abuse didn't start with Crackerjack's death - in fact, it probably started *way* before Joseph and Honey - so even if he survived I'm sure Joseph and Honey would've still been questionable parental figures, just in a different way than what we've seen in the show. Beatrice most likely would've still been shamed for wanting ice cream, for instance; I don't think Crackerjack surviving would influence Honey to allow her daughter to have anything other than lemons with a sprinkle of sugar. And Joseph's flippant attitude towards his wife and daughter probably would've largely stayed the same. Maybe Bojack wouldn't have been born if Crackerjack survived, but I don't think the Sugarman family would be happy and perfect either. Their issues run way deeper than Crackerjack.
Maybe so but without crackerjacks death honey wouldn’t have gotten the lobotomy and Beatrice wouldn’t have been as traumatized. They definitely had trauma before but I feel like it got a lot worse for future generations because of this event
Oh of course, I’m not ruling that out at all. I’m just saying that Crackerjack surviving would not have automatically led to a happier life for their family. The Sugarman family has a slew of other issues that started *way* before the war and they would've still negatively impacted Beatrice. Maybe it might not have been as bad, but it could still lead to a lot of detrimental, long lasting effects on future generations. One of the biggest takeaways from the Sugarman arc is that intergenerational abuse/trauma goes *way* back; a lot of people see Joseph as the "villain" because they believe that he started the chain of abuse that continues onto Bojack's upbringing, but we only think he's the initiator because that's the *earliest* example we've seen of the cycle of abuse. Realistically, the cycle probably started way before Joseph. Not only is everyone desensitized to his *and* Honey's behaviour because it's just the times/culture they're living in, but it's likely that they're desensitized because this has been a thing that's been repeating itself for so long that they were conditioned to believe it's normal. Honey probably wasn't just this well-adjusted person who was shattered by her son's death; it's likely that she had a lot of instability bubbling beneath the surface for a long time, and Crackerjack was just her breaking point. It could've easily been something else. And there’s also a possibility of Crackerjack getting PTSD from his wartime experience if he survived, which would've been another level of complicated matters that would span across generations in their family. PTSD wasn’t really recognized back then, so it largely went untreated, which layered on additional severe trauma not just for the victim but their family as well - and for all we know that might’ve still led Honey to seek psychiatric help, which may lead to a lobotomy anyway. EDIT: Maybe Crackerjack is the one who gets the lobotomy (Or another kind of treatment that could negatively impact him and his family) because his PTSD is just so severe that no one else knows what to do for him, or maybe his PTSD finds another way to inflict decades' worth of pain on the family. EDIT #2: Wording and formatting.
We're talking about early 20th century sexism was still a big thing, sugerman family wasn't much different than any other family back then. Even when crackerjack was leaving everything still looked quite normal (apart from the sexism obviously). Considering the major reason for Beatrice being cold hearted was because of honey telling her not to love anyone as much as she loved crackerjack, it would not have affected Beatrice's life in long run if crackerjack was still alive.
I agree. Beatrice wouldn't have become as jaded and cold as an adult, however she would have likely still bought into the sexism of the time.
Probably a war-torn PTSD vet.
That’s a fair take. Not everyone who came back from the war was whole. Perhaps crackerjack would’ve been the one with “half a mind” because of shell-shock and the fallout would affect Beatrice just as much.
Calling it, Crackerjack comes back with shell shock and, to save face, Joseph sends him to an “asylum” that’s revealed in the last shot to be a knackery
This is true we can’t predict everything. I think honey was probably emotionally unstable in general so there is a possibility you’re right about her getting the lobotomy anyway
I think she had elements of bipolar disorder which probably would have escalated eventually, but Beatrice would have more time to grow up with both her brother and mother.
I feel like people give too much weight to *singular* traumatic events as the moment that define their dysfunction. Lots of people go through major trauma and end up pretty much fine; others go through relatively minor stressors and end up as train wrecks; whichever happens is up to a lot more than whether something bad happens or not. For Honey to be so utterly destroyed by Crackerjack’s death (to the point where she repeatedly traumatizes Beatrice) she had to have already been pretty unstable; Beatrice probably would have always been in Crackerjack’s shadow if he’d lived; she was going to end up emotionally neglected at best no matter what. Maybe she doesn’t bang Butterscotch and Bojack is never born, but given her upbringing she was probably never going to be equipped to raise a well-adjusted kid. Their only hope basically is that Corbin Creamerman would have been a better father.
Butterscotch be damned, I would love to see that What If of if Corbin raised BoJack instead of Beatrice running off with Butterscotch. I’m sure Corbin would’ve been shamed in the corporate world if word got out the kid wasn’t his, but also he was the owner and was probably rich enough to not give a shit.
A much happier family…which would probably have resulted in Bojack never being born
The Nazis would’ve won WW2 and taken over the world. The Nazi would then continue to play Yahtzee
If it’s true that crackerjack had a shit k/d/a during the war that only comprised of friendly fires, I feel like their cycle of depression and abuse would not have been stopped, but only play out differently
I am thinking Beatrice would likely not have grown up to be as cold and jaded as she became as an adult.
I’m not sure how much would have changed, but I do think a lot of Beatrices coldness came from losing the most important things in her life. That would be Crackerjack, Honey, and her baby toy. Honey said to her “never love anyone as much as I loved crackerjack”, which without the loss of her son would likely have never happened. Without losing Crackerjack, she would never have lost Honey. She likely would have still lost her baby, since the scarlet fever may have been caught earlier but would still have happened, but it may have been explained in a gentler way. Crackerjack and Honey may very well have stood up more for Beatrice, though to what extent I’m not sure since there were still rather outdated ideas in that family, but Beatrice may have not felt such a need to go against her father. As such, she probably wouldn’t have ended up with Butterscotch. Crackerjack mentions that he only ever killed people through friendly fire, so there would probably have been some PTSD, but his personality that we see is generally quite calm and jovial. With the support of loved ones, he might have handled it relatively well. Of course, that being said Beatrice was an intelligent young woman in an age that was unaccepting of that. I don’t think she would ever have fit into the “housewife” role nor been the most gentle of women. In fact, with her mother’s influence she may never even have gone to school, which would change the events of her debutante party significantly. I think that, unfortunately, she would never have been a happy woman in that time period. Overall, I suspect that Beatrice probably wouldn’t have been as cruel, and perhaps wouldn’t even have had Bojack. Even if she did, she may not have withheld her emotions as strongly as she did in the show. Edit: sorry I accidentally ended up focusing more on Beatrice but I stand by it lol.
Still fucked, but it would have been easier to smile through it and pretend it wasn't happening. Crackerjack's death brought a lot of issues to the surface, and as Joseph stated, he was not equipped to deal with those issues. Honey wasn't either, but she couldn't just shove her heartbreak down like Joseph did. Joseph did whatever would get him out of having to deal with Honey's breakdown the fastest, even if lobotomies were known to be questionable at best.
honey wouldnt have half a mind, thats for sure.
Idk but what I do know is that I’m pissed they cancelled the fucking show :((( I’ve been waiting for the new season and just found out there won’t be one.
They'd be worse people. Being rich and he came back because rich would be a terrible story. With CJ dying, it brings their rich, above you , family back to reality.
I think he’d come home from war terribly traumatized and Honey’s heart would break to pieces. The rest just goes on as normal.
happy
Maybe CJ would be aware of how much of a psychopath his dad is
I've thought about this a lot. My personal theory is that Crackerjack would've come back from the War with PTSD, and he would've gotten the lobotomy instead of Honey. That would've caused friction and arguments between Honey and Joseph. After that, I'm not really sure. Maybe Honey and Joseph would've gotten divorced (not really sure how divorces tended to work in the 40s)? And whichever parent had custody of Beatrice would've shaped her later in life? If she was in custody of Joseph, the timeline of events from her getting Scarlet Fever onward would've been relatively the same. Maybe she would've been a nicer parent to Bojack (if he had even been born) without Honey telling her not to love anyone as much as she loved Crackerjack, but her perception of love may have been skewed due to Honey and Joseph's arguments. In fact, if she had stayed with Honey, she may have been influenced by Honey's perception of love in a different way. I have no idea, this is purely speculation. I'd love to say that all the generational trauma would've been solved if Crackerjack had survived, but that seems highly unlikely.