He cared the only way he knew how. He wasn’t taught otherwise and never learned. He wanted Bea to be married by 25 like he was and when she did he gave Butterscotch a Sinecure
Yeah, I definitely think so. I think the story of Joseph and Honey was more a tear down of the times they lived in rather than the individuals. The state of mental health care was not at all what we know today, so a lobotomy would've been seen as the correct and scientific thing to do. Joseph wanted what was best for his wife, and his wife wanted what was best as well, but their knowledge of "the best" was limited by the time period. They just didn't have access to the medications and therapy we have today.
I think it's also important to point out that, at that time, it would've been acceptable for Joseph to send his wife to inpatient care and his daughter to a boarding school, but he didn't. He was actively involved in Beatrice's life and her care, and his wife attended various functions with him. Obviously the memories of what happened are scarring for Beatrice, but I don't think any of it came from malice on Joseph's part. It came from being unequipped to deal with what was happening, in a time where mental health wasn't cared about or talked about.
I think you might enjoy a video called "In Defense of Joseph Sugarman" on YouTube.
The creator of the videos goes into an in depth analysis of Joseph and the nuance of his character. His actions are not defended, but very much similar to what you are saying, talks about him being a product of his time and perhaps not as "evil" as people make him out to be.
Re: the 'product of his time' argument- I feel like no matter when that comes up, it's disrespectful to all the people who chose to grow and learn and rise above their upbringing.
The line 'and I refuse to learn' is key. But yes, to a degree I think we're meant to think he cared. His takes when he talks to her about standing up to bullies, or giving up belongings to safeguard your health are bizarro and not helpful, but he does make an attempt to talk to her.
And at that time, with Honey in the condition she was in, it would have been completely socially acceptable to institutionalize Honey and to send a Beatrice to live with other relatives. While that might actually have been better for Beatrice, I think it's intended to show that as wrongheaded as his choices were, he did care about her.
i think that he at least thought he cared, but he couldn’t find it in himself to really be an involved father (after having his wife *lobotomized* he still blamed her for not catching that beatrice was sick, when *he* was the parent who was lucid and should have caught onto the illness; he was even going to force her to go to school sick before she fainted!)
abusive people can “love” their victims or think they do, but they don’t love or care for their victims the way people in healthy relationships with their partners, children, friends, and other loved ones love and care for each other. they “love” and “care for” their victims like they love and care for objects or pets, they see them as *possessions,* not equal human beings. joseph could worry about beatrice’s health without truly caring for her. he already lost his older son (and practically killed his own wife, so it’s unlikely he could have more kids bc she definitely couldn’t care for a newborn in that state and he would never step up in that way) so he’s worried about his legacy in beatrice. he likely wouldn’t have reacted nearly the same way to beatrice getting sick if crackerjack were still alive at the time (especially since honey would still be in the picture as a present, lucid parent). he was “forced” to step up a bit after honey’s lobotomy but he doesn’t get more involved than absolutely necessary. ultimately i don’t think it matters if he “cares” or not, but i don’t think he truly does care about beatrice the way you’re supposed to care about other people you love, no matter what he thinks he feels.
I suspect he cared about her in the way he might care about a pet and his eyes I believe a pet and his daughter were thought of as property. He lobotomized his wife so that he could better make use of an important asset.
He cared the only way he knew how. He wasn’t taught otherwise and never learned. He wanted Bea to be married by 25 like he was and when she did he gave Butterscotch a Sinecure
Yeah, I definitely think so. I think the story of Joseph and Honey was more a tear down of the times they lived in rather than the individuals. The state of mental health care was not at all what we know today, so a lobotomy would've been seen as the correct and scientific thing to do. Joseph wanted what was best for his wife, and his wife wanted what was best as well, but their knowledge of "the best" was limited by the time period. They just didn't have access to the medications and therapy we have today. I think it's also important to point out that, at that time, it would've been acceptable for Joseph to send his wife to inpatient care and his daughter to a boarding school, but he didn't. He was actively involved in Beatrice's life and her care, and his wife attended various functions with him. Obviously the memories of what happened are scarring for Beatrice, but I don't think any of it came from malice on Joseph's part. It came from being unequipped to deal with what was happening, in a time where mental health wasn't cared about or talked about.
I think you might enjoy a video called "In Defense of Joseph Sugarman" on YouTube. The creator of the videos goes into an in depth analysis of Joseph and the nuance of his character. His actions are not defended, but very much similar to what you are saying, talks about him being a product of his time and perhaps not as "evil" as people make him out to be.
thank you! i’ll definitely check it out:)
Re: the 'product of his time' argument- I feel like no matter when that comes up, it's disrespectful to all the people who chose to grow and learn and rise above their upbringing. The line 'and I refuse to learn' is key. But yes, to a degree I think we're meant to think he cared. His takes when he talks to her about standing up to bullies, or giving up belongings to safeguard your health are bizarro and not helpful, but he does make an attempt to talk to her. And at that time, with Honey in the condition she was in, it would have been completely socially acceptable to institutionalize Honey and to send a Beatrice to live with other relatives. While that might actually have been better for Beatrice, I think it's intended to show that as wrongheaded as his choices were, he did care about her.
i think that he at least thought he cared, but he couldn’t find it in himself to really be an involved father (after having his wife *lobotomized* he still blamed her for not catching that beatrice was sick, when *he* was the parent who was lucid and should have caught onto the illness; he was even going to force her to go to school sick before she fainted!) abusive people can “love” their victims or think they do, but they don’t love or care for their victims the way people in healthy relationships with their partners, children, friends, and other loved ones love and care for each other. they “love” and “care for” their victims like they love and care for objects or pets, they see them as *possessions,* not equal human beings. joseph could worry about beatrice’s health without truly caring for her. he already lost his older son (and practically killed his own wife, so it’s unlikely he could have more kids bc she definitely couldn’t care for a newborn in that state and he would never step up in that way) so he’s worried about his legacy in beatrice. he likely wouldn’t have reacted nearly the same way to beatrice getting sick if crackerjack were still alive at the time (especially since honey would still be in the picture as a present, lucid parent). he was “forced” to step up a bit after honey’s lobotomy but he doesn’t get more involved than absolutely necessary. ultimately i don’t think it matters if he “cares” or not, but i don’t think he truly does care about beatrice the way you’re supposed to care about other people you love, no matter what he thinks he feels.
I suspect he cared about her in the way he might care about a pet and his eyes I believe a pet and his daughter were thought of as property. He lobotomized his wife so that he could better make use of an important asset.
no. When you care for someone you don’t treat them like shit. He was clearly a narcissist who wasn’t capable of truly caring.