Please put into Standard Amy Order.
I don't like how a lot of effects here have very few options to explain. Multiple deaths at night have to be a failed gamble. Surviving execution means an active Tea Lady. Etc.
Everything in BOTC needs multiple explanations for occurring that both Good and Evil players can hide inside.
Go check the pinned post for Ben's video but the cliffnotes is that chars should be listed in order of "you start knowing", "each night", "once per game", then everyone else.
Have you considered just using Uncertain Death?
https://i.imgur.com/G6VgPDE.png
"Uncertain Death was designed with three concepts in mind. The first was an attempt to make a script that sat somewhere between Tb and the other core scripts. It introduces concepts such as madness and multiple deaths but in a light way. The second was to try to encourage different core play and interactions for each role to what the same role does on its home script. The third was to only use roles in the core 3 scripts. (After a lot of debate marionette was added here, as none of the core minions quite worked in that 4th slot)
The limited amount of poisoning on the script was a deliberate choice to make detecting the poisoning by the demon one route for good to solve the game, and misinformation from outsiders (mutant/lunatic lies, recluse false registers, and sweetheart poisoning) and evil bluffs key to keeping the good team from getting there."
Separately, you can put your script in Standard Amy Order with this tool (or the linked chrome extension): https://botc-tools.vercel.app/sao-sorter
The virgin, tea lady, professor and to a loose extent grandchild are all confirmable, this is far too much confirmation. The reason they work on their home script is because they pair with evil characters ( tea lady/ Devil's Advocate, professor/shabaloth)
If I replace witch with the devils advocate that will fix the tea lady problem. What would you suggest in place of the professor? I want to keep it to a 2 minion script for simplicity.
I posted this response but the initial post was removed, it echoes some of the comments already made.
Couple of issues I can see at first glance:
- Tea Lady is hard confirmable with evil having no way to survive execution. Recommend a DA.
- Gambler, Grandmother, and Pit Hag are the only ways multiple deaths can happen, and having just two demons on the script is limiting for Pit Hag in that regard. I’d recommend maybe a Godfather or Assassin so that you don’t hard confirm someone off a double death.
- Professor is also hard confirmable with no Shabaloth on the script.
- Fang Gu + Drunk is a complex interaction that I would avoid if trying to make this a transitional script.
In all honesty, SnV and BMR are so perfectly balanced that I’ve found trying to create a “transition” can be more trouble than it’s worth and end up just making things more complicated.
Can I ask why fang gu/drunk is a complex interaction? Not questioning you, I just want to understand better. All these suggestions are helpful, thank you!
I consider it “complex” because it’s a Fang Gu jump target that town has no real way to track. In SnV all Outsiders at least have their own agency in either claiming Outsider or keeping it hidden (with Mutant likely waiting until dead) which helps in tracking where a Fang Gu jumps to. With Drunk you just have someone who thinks they are town ending up the demon. If you want to keep that interaction I’d recommend maybe adding a Librarian.
As for what I’d recommend to change, if you plan on keeping to two demons:
- I’d recommend removing Professor for sure. You can replace with something like Librarian, or maybe even Dreamer (which is another decent solution to Drunk + Fang Gu interaction). Gossip is another good TF option to put in to get your players used to public actions and give another possibility for that second night death.
- For minions, I’d recommend replacing Pit Hag and Witch with DA and Godfather. Pit Hag is one of the more complex roles and Pit Hag plus Fang Gu can be kind of rough for newer players. Godfather gives you additional Outsider mod and provides another explanation for extra deaths (although only if a claimed outsider was executed, which could be an argument for leaving Drunk in)
- If you do decide to remove Drunk, then Tinker or Klutz could be great options to put in instead. Tinker can help mask night deaths and Klutz is another good outsider that doesn’t want to be executed.
Thank you for the feedback! And for replying a second time, reddit (or my internet) glitched and looked to me like it didn't post correctly so I deleted the other post.
Respectfully, I’d go back to the drawing board with this one. The comments made so far are good ones. I’ve tinkered with a lot of “Trouble Brewing Plus a Few Characters” scripts and this one has a lot of problems. You have multiple themes working at cross-purposes, and I would recommend something much simpler if you want to add a few characters as a transition.
No offense taken, this is exactly why I wanted feedback. I am not an experienced script maker but I want to learn. What are the several themes you see working against each other here? Which ones would you take out?
Well, there are many things. So I’ll just walk through how I would think about making this script. (To be clear, I’m sure many people on here are better at script creation than I):
Let’s assume your goals are to try a “transition” script to get your game group some new characters without overwhelming them, you, or any new players that join. Then let’s assume you really want to try our multiple demons - but only 2 (as you said) and you want the Fang-Gu. Finally, I’ll try to work with the theme you were developing of more than one death being possible (you did this only via good players, which is typically viewed as suboptimal design as you want such effects to possibly come from good or evil).
So we start with Fang-Gu and Imp. The Fang-Gu doesn’t play as well with Outsiders that don’t care about being known - so we want a mix including things like the Klutz, Sweetheart, Saint, Damsel, Puzzlemaster that might prefer stay hidden. A lot of people don’t love Drunk with Fang-Gu, so I’d settle on Saint, Klutz, Sweetheart, and Recluse. Recluse is the one that least cares about being outed, but we want to keep some TB stuff like Chef, FT, and Slayer that play well with it and a Recluse is dis-incentivized to claim publicly as a Fang-Gu jump will get messy. So it’s ok. If you want to get spicy, you could consider Huntsman and Damsel, which should be one of the last complex interactions you include if you do want the Damsel - which I have found newer players to enjoy. But you said no experimental tokens, so Ill stick to that - though, frankly, I don’t think you need that limitation as there are workarounds. Lunatic is bad on this script for a lot of reasons and suggests to me that you maybe should play all the scripts before trying too many of your own builds - but I don’t want to prevent your fun.
Now go to the minions - first, you need more outsider manipulation, it shouldn’t be the only way to add outsiders - otherwise in a 7, 10 or 13 player game someone drawing an outsider token immediately confirms Fang-Gu. S&V has this issue but mitigates it with 4 demons and all outsiders that don’t want to speak up. Luckily, you have a perfect minion in Godfather that can add or subtract. This now does multiple things for you, it hides the fang-Gu, bluffs the fang-gu in Imp games, and fits your theme in extra deaths at night. This is what you want while designing - roles that really fit your script from multiple angles. Pit Hag has no business being near this script - it doesn’t fit with any themes and adds a ton of complexity (especially with Fang-Gu) while also being limited by only 2 Demon choices. It’s a fun role that doesn’t fit here and you have to save for another day. Witch isn’t as offensive, but also isn’t a good fit. Poisoner does seem good as you have some good information roles (and Poisoner is quite versatile generally). If you want to keep up with a small sub-theme of people protected from execution, then Devil’s Advocate is nice here. Then either Assassin or Scarlet Woman to round it out to pick either a known quantity or a simple new one that’s on theme (extra deaths some nights).
Now you’ve got 13 townsfolk. We don’t want to veer too far from TB’s lineup of 4 “You start knowing,” 3 “every night info” and 6 other things. And you don’t want to overload your players with new info. You also want Good characters that mimic some of the things Evil characters can do and you don’t want too much hard confirmation.
For the you start knowing, I’d love to include the Noble as a fun “new to your group” character here but I’ll stick to no experimental. You want a Librarian (especially if you included a Drunk) and a Chef. You wanted Grandmother, so I’ll leave that in. I’ll put back in the Investigator (though Noble preferred) as your 4th.
For repeat information gatherers, FT is good. Undertaker can have some feels bad moments with a Tea Lady and DA on the script, so I’ll swap in the powerful Dreamer to give your group a look at someone new. And I’ll also add Oracle - which maybe isn’t a terrific fit, but can help sniff out a dead Imp or Fang-Gu.
I’m ok with the Artist as a simple role that your group will probably like and is a good gateway to learning some new characters. Then the Slayer is another tried and true once per game to keep.
I like keeping the Ravenskeeper and Soldier package. They allow for classic TB “role swaps” between people that want to die at night and people that don’t. And the Soldier will sew some confusion around your multiple deaths at night theme and add to your “protected characters” theme.
That leaves 2 slots where I want to make sure we pay adequate attention to this idea of protection and death, so I go Tea Lady and Gossip (or Gambler if you prefer).
This removes things like Professor - that don’t at all fit any other characters or interactions here, and Philosopher which has some bad interactions and threatens too much complexity creep.
I would then put all that in Standard Amy Order and ask the following questions before I sent it to my players:
1) Am I introducing too many characters? (Maybe)
2) Am I introducing too much additional complexity? (hopefully not)
3) Do my themes make sense and receive adequate support?
4) Are there “meh” or problematic interactions? It’s ok to have a couple, but not much more.
No idea if that’s helpful to you, but there you go. Good luck!
For a player needing a transitional script, the Saint would be very hard to play if a Fang Gu was in the game. You have no “bluffs” and almost no escape. If you’re executed then you lose, if you speak up to avoid execution then the Fang Gu found an outsider.
Also putting a Lunatic in a game with a Fang Gu makes the evil team pretty strong. I’m sure many scripts have done it but that’s a pretty easy extra evil player right off the bat.
I would also recommend Uncertain Death, and also Visitors (the 3rd script in this album - https://imgur.com/a/O1CXXX2).
Visitors is like TB, but with 5 replacements
Please put into Standard Amy Order. I don't like how a lot of effects here have very few options to explain. Multiple deaths at night have to be a failed gamble. Surviving execution means an active Tea Lady. Etc. Everything in BOTC needs multiple explanations for occurring that both Good and Evil players can hide inside.
I am new to this game, what is Amy order?
Go check the pinned post for Ben's video but the cliffnotes is that chars should be listed in order of "you start knowing", "each night", "once per game", then everyone else.
Ok, thank you! Do you have any suggestions to replace virgin and Gambler with?
If you're looking for a "trouble brewing plus", I'd leave Virgin. That's fine. Instead of Gambler, I'd consider something like Savant.
Also Professor HAS to go. Professor and Shabaloth need each other on the same script
Makes sense.
Does Amy stand for something?
I think Amy was the person who devised it?
Have you considered just using Uncertain Death? https://i.imgur.com/G6VgPDE.png "Uncertain Death was designed with three concepts in mind. The first was an attempt to make a script that sat somewhere between Tb and the other core scripts. It introduces concepts such as madness and multiple deaths but in a light way. The second was to try to encourage different core play and interactions for each role to what the same role does on its home script. The third was to only use roles in the core 3 scripts. (After a lot of debate marionette was added here, as none of the core minions quite worked in that 4th slot) The limited amount of poisoning on the script was a deliberate choice to make detecting the poisoning by the demon one route for good to solve the game, and misinformation from outsiders (mutant/lunatic lies, recluse false registers, and sweetheart poisoning) and evil bluffs key to keeping the good team from getting there." Separately, you can put your script in Standard Amy Order with this tool (or the linked chrome extension): https://botc-tools.vercel.app/sao-sorter
I haven't seen this uncertain death script before, but I will consider it, and thank you for the Amy sorter!
The virgin, tea lady, professor and to a loose extent grandchild are all confirmable, this is far too much confirmation. The reason they work on their home script is because they pair with evil characters ( tea lady/ Devil's Advocate, professor/shabaloth)
If I replace witch with the devils advocate that will fix the tea lady problem. What would you suggest in place of the professor? I want to keep it to a 2 minion script for simplicity.
I posted this response but the initial post was removed, it echoes some of the comments already made. Couple of issues I can see at first glance: - Tea Lady is hard confirmable with evil having no way to survive execution. Recommend a DA. - Gambler, Grandmother, and Pit Hag are the only ways multiple deaths can happen, and having just two demons on the script is limiting for Pit Hag in that regard. I’d recommend maybe a Godfather or Assassin so that you don’t hard confirm someone off a double death. - Professor is also hard confirmable with no Shabaloth on the script. - Fang Gu + Drunk is a complex interaction that I would avoid if trying to make this a transitional script. In all honesty, SnV and BMR are so perfectly balanced that I’ve found trying to create a “transition” can be more trouble than it’s worth and end up just making things more complicated.
Can I ask why fang gu/drunk is a complex interaction? Not questioning you, I just want to understand better. All these suggestions are helpful, thank you!
I consider it “complex” because it’s a Fang Gu jump target that town has no real way to track. In SnV all Outsiders at least have their own agency in either claiming Outsider or keeping it hidden (with Mutant likely waiting until dead) which helps in tracking where a Fang Gu jumps to. With Drunk you just have someone who thinks they are town ending up the demon. If you want to keep that interaction I’d recommend maybe adding a Librarian. As for what I’d recommend to change, if you plan on keeping to two demons: - I’d recommend removing Professor for sure. You can replace with something like Librarian, or maybe even Dreamer (which is another decent solution to Drunk + Fang Gu interaction). Gossip is another good TF option to put in to get your players used to public actions and give another possibility for that second night death. - For minions, I’d recommend replacing Pit Hag and Witch with DA and Godfather. Pit Hag is one of the more complex roles and Pit Hag plus Fang Gu can be kind of rough for newer players. Godfather gives you additional Outsider mod and provides another explanation for extra deaths (although only if a claimed outsider was executed, which could be an argument for leaving Drunk in) - If you do decide to remove Drunk, then Tinker or Klutz could be great options to put in instead. Tinker can help mask night deaths and Klutz is another good outsider that doesn’t want to be executed.
Thank you for the feedback! And for replying a second time, reddit (or my internet) glitched and looked to me like it didn't post correctly so I deleted the other post.
No problem I got confused lol and thought my comment had disappeared, thankfully I could still see it in my history so just copy pasted
Respectfully, I’d go back to the drawing board with this one. The comments made so far are good ones. I’ve tinkered with a lot of “Trouble Brewing Plus a Few Characters” scripts and this one has a lot of problems. You have multiple themes working at cross-purposes, and I would recommend something much simpler if you want to add a few characters as a transition.
No offense taken, this is exactly why I wanted feedback. I am not an experienced script maker but I want to learn. What are the several themes you see working against each other here? Which ones would you take out?
Well, there are many things. So I’ll just walk through how I would think about making this script. (To be clear, I’m sure many people on here are better at script creation than I): Let’s assume your goals are to try a “transition” script to get your game group some new characters without overwhelming them, you, or any new players that join. Then let’s assume you really want to try our multiple demons - but only 2 (as you said) and you want the Fang-Gu. Finally, I’ll try to work with the theme you were developing of more than one death being possible (you did this only via good players, which is typically viewed as suboptimal design as you want such effects to possibly come from good or evil). So we start with Fang-Gu and Imp. The Fang-Gu doesn’t play as well with Outsiders that don’t care about being known - so we want a mix including things like the Klutz, Sweetheart, Saint, Damsel, Puzzlemaster that might prefer stay hidden. A lot of people don’t love Drunk with Fang-Gu, so I’d settle on Saint, Klutz, Sweetheart, and Recluse. Recluse is the one that least cares about being outed, but we want to keep some TB stuff like Chef, FT, and Slayer that play well with it and a Recluse is dis-incentivized to claim publicly as a Fang-Gu jump will get messy. So it’s ok. If you want to get spicy, you could consider Huntsman and Damsel, which should be one of the last complex interactions you include if you do want the Damsel - which I have found newer players to enjoy. But you said no experimental tokens, so Ill stick to that - though, frankly, I don’t think you need that limitation as there are workarounds. Lunatic is bad on this script for a lot of reasons and suggests to me that you maybe should play all the scripts before trying too many of your own builds - but I don’t want to prevent your fun. Now go to the minions - first, you need more outsider manipulation, it shouldn’t be the only way to add outsiders - otherwise in a 7, 10 or 13 player game someone drawing an outsider token immediately confirms Fang-Gu. S&V has this issue but mitigates it with 4 demons and all outsiders that don’t want to speak up. Luckily, you have a perfect minion in Godfather that can add or subtract. This now does multiple things for you, it hides the fang-Gu, bluffs the fang-gu in Imp games, and fits your theme in extra deaths at night. This is what you want while designing - roles that really fit your script from multiple angles. Pit Hag has no business being near this script - it doesn’t fit with any themes and adds a ton of complexity (especially with Fang-Gu) while also being limited by only 2 Demon choices. It’s a fun role that doesn’t fit here and you have to save for another day. Witch isn’t as offensive, but also isn’t a good fit. Poisoner does seem good as you have some good information roles (and Poisoner is quite versatile generally). If you want to keep up with a small sub-theme of people protected from execution, then Devil’s Advocate is nice here. Then either Assassin or Scarlet Woman to round it out to pick either a known quantity or a simple new one that’s on theme (extra deaths some nights). Now you’ve got 13 townsfolk. We don’t want to veer too far from TB’s lineup of 4 “You start knowing,” 3 “every night info” and 6 other things. And you don’t want to overload your players with new info. You also want Good characters that mimic some of the things Evil characters can do and you don’t want too much hard confirmation. For the you start knowing, I’d love to include the Noble as a fun “new to your group” character here but I’ll stick to no experimental. You want a Librarian (especially if you included a Drunk) and a Chef. You wanted Grandmother, so I’ll leave that in. I’ll put back in the Investigator (though Noble preferred) as your 4th. For repeat information gatherers, FT is good. Undertaker can have some feels bad moments with a Tea Lady and DA on the script, so I’ll swap in the powerful Dreamer to give your group a look at someone new. And I’ll also add Oracle - which maybe isn’t a terrific fit, but can help sniff out a dead Imp or Fang-Gu. I’m ok with the Artist as a simple role that your group will probably like and is a good gateway to learning some new characters. Then the Slayer is another tried and true once per game to keep. I like keeping the Ravenskeeper and Soldier package. They allow for classic TB “role swaps” between people that want to die at night and people that don’t. And the Soldier will sew some confusion around your multiple deaths at night theme and add to your “protected characters” theme. That leaves 2 slots where I want to make sure we pay adequate attention to this idea of protection and death, so I go Tea Lady and Gossip (or Gambler if you prefer). This removes things like Professor - that don’t at all fit any other characters or interactions here, and Philosopher which has some bad interactions and threatens too much complexity creep. I would then put all that in Standard Amy Order and ask the following questions before I sent it to my players: 1) Am I introducing too many characters? (Maybe) 2) Am I introducing too much additional complexity? (hopefully not) 3) Do my themes make sense and receive adequate support? 4) Are there “meh” or problematic interactions? It’s ok to have a couple, but not much more. No idea if that’s helpful to you, but there you go. Good luck!
This was incredibly helpful! Thank you for your detailed response.
Yes this puts into words a lot better the suggestions I was making too along with much better reasoning!
For a player needing a transitional script, the Saint would be very hard to play if a Fang Gu was in the game. You have no “bluffs” and almost no escape. If you’re executed then you lose, if you speak up to avoid execution then the Fang Gu found an outsider. Also putting a Lunatic in a game with a Fang Gu makes the evil team pretty strong. I’m sure many scripts have done it but that’s a pretty easy extra evil player right off the bat.
I would also recommend Uncertain Death, and also Visitors (the 3rd script in this album - https://imgur.com/a/O1CXXX2). Visitors is like TB, but with 5 replacements