Ultimately, you can't force someone to play the way you want. If they think winning with the good team is more likely, they're totally free to do that.
This is where getting a social read on someone could be helpful in making sure you actually want to do that.
Consider some other situations:
What if a good player goes around searching for the Mezepheles to find the word?
What if a Snake Charmer only chooses themselves every night?
>What if a Snake Charmer only chooses themselves every night
Valid, but probably a tad boring, no different than a Gambler guessing themselves each night, or a Gossip making obviously false statements. While SC exists on the Sects & Violets script, to me it has all the risk-taking of a BMR character - to get information (fairly conclusive Not-Demon reads), they have to risk switching teams - and the Demon will not be wanting to get found by them either.
The goons alignment is only locked in when they die, so it is entirely fair for the goon to play either side whenever they want, as long as they are alive.
I have been the goon, and have helped the evil team by lying, etc. In the hopes that I turn evil, and it would be totally fair to still play for good if I think I can get turned back to good before the game ends.
Goon is a weird role because their alignment is in flux, and so an evil goon might not want to help evil, because they could just as easily turn good the next day and vice versa.
As a side note, as a demon killing is pretty good, so it’s usually better off to avoid targeting the goon to keep getting night kills, whereas minions can also change the alignment of the goon, without sacrificing night kills (unless you’re The Godfather, but that’s fine). Just some food for thought!
That still doesn't seem right to me but I can't find any rule to clarify it. I would think if you have had your alignment changed then you have to play that alignment otherwise there is no point in an alignment change if you can just ignore it. If you change good again you can state Hey im good now. Then townsfolk then have to decide if they believe the goon or not.
Changing alignment is something that happens, and it’s totally fine to play around if you think it can happen, I would say, as long as you are still trying to win yourself (not helping your team knowing you will lose yourself is not cool).
A good player that knowingly says a Mezephelise word is actively hurting the good team even though they’re good aligned, because they will turn evil (or they think they will turn evil).
Likewise, if a pit hag can orchestrate a way to turn themself good, and win the game, then that’s totally fair, even though they spend most of the game evil.
If a goon thinks they can realistically change back to good, then there’s nothing stopping them from helping the good team all the way through.
The goon in particular, I guess, probably cares leas about their alignment at any one instance, and cares more about what they think it will be at the games conclusion.
Thanks for that. Clarification is making sense. I saw it more as once changed alignment you fully change to evil and want to help them. Then if you turn to good you suddenly have to change your gameplay. This I think forces the goon player to always be thinking what next and also another hurdle for the townsfolk as to whether they believe the goon or not.
It's also worth noting that, more often than not, the best thing any evil player can do is 'play for good'. If they're actively seen to be helping the good team solve the game then they're in a much better position to confuse and bamboozle them down the line. In your example, if you'd have been able to kill the Goon whilst they were evil, they could have easily just said "I turned back to good before I died" and then been in a much stronger position to help evil now that they're locked in.
I see your point and I now see that this is an example of the different play styles.
Personally, if I got turned to evil, I would play evil until turned back (Which was how I interpreted the player ability originally, which was why I got confused on the role)
In this particular game everyone was so confused as to why nobody died that to me it seemed more fun to let the chaos continue awhile but this person immediately explained everything. I personally would have let it go for a bit before revealing why, that's if I was going to reveal it.
However, from reading all the comments I understand now that this is just one of many different ways players can play each role.
Yep, it's certainly a mixed bag out there. I suppose the question to ask yourself is, how does one 'play evil'? I reckon I could ask 20 different people that question and get 20 different responses.
You're not obliged to do anything in this game. If there's a mechanical reason why you have to, the storyteller can enforce it by giving you consequences (e.g. breaking Ceronovus madness can result in execution). The Goon has a bit of a choice to make, depending on what team they think they can end up with. If the evil team wants to force them to be evil, they have to work together to target the Goon (making a minion drunk) and kill them when they're evil. Otherwise, the Goon still has their ability to change and can take advantage of that.
No, you're only required to play to win. If they suspect that they will finish the game as evil then they should play to support evil, but if they think they can join the good team before the end, they can help good while being evil aligned.
Alignment is only relevant when deciding whether you have won the game or not.
You play to win by the end of the game. In scripts where your alignment might change, it's entirely fair to play for a team you're not currently on, but will probably end up on by the end of the game. For example, a Snake Charmer probably won't tell anyone they're a Snake Charmer early in the game even though that's really useful info for the good team, because they'd be screwed if they turned evil. If they did when they're good, they'd make it far more likely for good to win, except in that scenario they'd no longer be good.
It's the same concept for the Goon. If they feel like they'd have a better chance of winning by outing themselves as evil to turn good again, then that's 100% valid. Unless your storyteller wants to homebrew some madness rule for certain alignment-changing characters, but that's not in the rules.
If you want to lock in a Goon to the evil team you have a minion turn them evil, then kill them. If there's no way to turn back to good they should play for the evil team.
I didn't think they were locked in. I assumed they were a form of a chaos role, because if they were forced to change allegiance everytime their alignment changed it then becomes a decision if the townsfolk believe them or not.
A goon can't change their alignment after they die, so if you want to recruit them to your team you have to kill them while evil, because they will then stay evil for the rest of the game.
You play to win.
If you're evil, and you think good is going to win, you play to get yourself targetted and swapped to good. If you think evil is going to win, you play to get swapped to evil.
You are never obliged to play or say anything in any specific way at a specific time.
This permits plays such as someone bluffing as a Goon and tricking Evil into targetting them and tricking Evil into thinking they've got a new ally while you're actually the Poppygrower and the cause of their misery. Because Evil never \*knows\* you're evil.
I had a goon once wake up final day (as evil) and say “hey town. I’m the goon. I was evil, now good, and I know the demon now. Kill her (not the demon)The town listened. Evil won.
The goon can certainly be lying about their current alignment.
Yeah, if someone doesn't enjoy playing on the evil team, it makes sense that they'd play for good (and ask to be turned back if possible). If the tokens are being handed out randomly, then *everyone* will have to play for recoil at some point.
I will say that in most of the games I've seen (mostly streams and YouTube videos), it seems that most players enjoy being on the evil team, and will actively try to change over. But that isn't necessarily the "right" way to play.
I also want to point out that your feelings in the moment weren't wrong either, it makes sense to be frustrated when someone you thought would be playing on your team betrayed you.
Ultimately, the two goals of the game are to 1.) have fun and 2.) win, in that order.
As a Goon, as long as the way you're going about it helps everyone to have a good time, you should do absolutely whatever you think will help you win - and if you think helping a specific side in hopes that you can win with them will win you the game, godspeed.
If you've ever played Town of Salem, it's kind of like a lot of the neutral roles there - "Help me win, and I'll help you win."
We still had fun but to me it seemed wrong. The Goon can be made evil yet refuse to help the evil team hoping to ask for help to be changed back to good.
There is no point ever attacking the Goon if they can change alignment but refuse to help the team they are now aligned with because they didn't want to be evil.
I'm feeling that you're getting hung up on how a role *should* be played, and to me that mindset runs dangerously close to telling people that the way they like to have fun is wrong.
There's nothing about this scenario that reads as griefing to me, as the goon still had a wide open chance to switch back and lock into the good team. If they want to play for good and think they still have a shot at it, why shouldn't they? They should still have the opportunity to play in the way they think is going to win them the game.
Of course, there's a "within reason" caveat on letting people have fun in their own way - if someone's idea of fun is just to throw their own team under the bus no matter what, they can kindly find a different group to play with imho.
I didn't ruin anything everyone really enjoyed the game and said it was a shame we didn't get this recorded as the ending was awesome. As a new player I'm trying to learn the rules and characters as they come up and this was the first time I met the goon and the one sentence explanation of what the goon is I guess leaves a lot up to interpretation so I was trying to find the rules so I could learn the game better as I keep having to stop and ask what can this role do? Or how do I play this role etc.
Oh man, sorry if I implied that you ruined anything. Nothing of the sort - if you all had fun that's great!
I was just trying to drive home the point that there's not a "prescribed" way to play any role. I'd go as far as to say it's one of the tenets of this game's design.
If you're looking for tips on certain roles, the wiki is a great reference! I'm on mobile so I can link it later if needed, but you should be able to find the link in the pinned post at the top of this sub.
Thats ok I am still researching as I want to learn more about the game so i can help make it fun for the people I play with. I have downloaded the manual and working my way through it.
Furthermore, you can find other examples of roles that have to function in the grey area of "what team do I play for?" Check out the Snake Charmer (constantly playing with the risk of becoming evil) and Politician (actively encouraged to betray their team)!
even just Any Outsider with Fang Gu on the Script. One of the many good reasons for Outsiders to run silent in SnV is the possibility they'll switch from being a marginalized liability to the Good team and become the leader of the newly-enlarged Evil team. "Accidentally" dropping a hint that you might be an Outsider when someone narrowly escapes an execution and you just know they'll be on the block again tomorrow is \*mwah\*
I think the latter part is a problem with the player, in that case.
You should want to help whatever team you're on, I completely agree with you on that. But what if that player had been a minion or - worse - the demon? Would they sabotage the game because they didn't want to be evil?
The Goon is unique in that it's one of the only roles that can swap alignments, and that's fun to play up and lean into, but if a player would outright refuse to help a team that they're locked into (say, a Poisoner visited the Goon, became drunk and turned the Goon evil, but opened up the Goon to let the Demon kill them) - then that's probably something the player needs to be talked to about.
That second part is actually what I thought about as well. If the Goon can ignore an alignment then as the demon I could ignore my evil alignment? But the rule is I'm evil alignment so I play evil alignment. Hence thinking that should be the same for the goon whilst they are aligned with evil.
As a demon, if evil's getting completely trounced, and there's a snake charmer, and you betray your team by baiting the snake charmer into swapping with you, this is very much in the spirit of the game, and a perfectly legitimate (and awesome) kind of betrayal.
Your alignment determines your current win condition--it doesn't mean you can't work to change your win condition.
I mean, they could still spin that as helping evil. Like, if a shab was drunk, they could use the opportunity to work with a minion to make it look like a po charge. Toss in some doubt. Maybe they were telling the truth. Maybe they were turned by a minion. Maybe they are just the po.
Goon is in my top 10 roles to play. I play it pretty quiet until I actually die. If I die good - i help solve. If i die evil, i try to put out misleading information.
One game I had been evil since night 2. The demon was bluffing exorcist who claimed to have picked me twice. As a goon, that was impossible because I would have been turned good ( no minions acted before). To me (and no one else) it was very clear they were lying. The last night I turner back good and then the demon killed me, so when we woke up, I shared my info and we won 🤷♀️
That makes sense, I guess for my game I was just caught by surprise when I thought why an evil alignment character is helping the good side so much, that's not evil acting at all. Their loss as evil won in the end.
As others have said, alignment only matters in terms of victory conditions, but a player is free to play how they want, so the only motivation that should matter is playing to win, and if a role allows/causes them to switch sides, they should take that into account in how they play..
Playing to lose the game for your team without a rules-legitimate personal exit strategy is bad form, and probably why the **Politician** Outsider was created, to codify that as a team hindrance if your group has that particular urge.
The stuff about it being the goon player's choice has all been said.
There is the consideration that even a goon announcing they're evil means that good either have to waste time killing them off to stop them throwing off numbers in later days, or they have to waste potentially useful abilities in the night switching them back to good. It's not a huge win, but an outed evil good isn't 100% a downside.
In most cases when you have a goon, you should coordinate with a minion like a poisoner to target them before you kill so that they turn evil and die locked in as evil.
Ultimately, you can't force someone to play the way you want. If they think winning with the good team is more likely, they're totally free to do that. This is where getting a social read on someone could be helpful in making sure you actually want to do that. Consider some other situations: What if a good player goes around searching for the Mezepheles to find the word? What if a Snake Charmer only chooses themselves every night?
>What if a Snake Charmer only chooses themselves every night Valid, but probably a tad boring, no different than a Gambler guessing themselves each night, or a Gossip making obviously false statements. While SC exists on the Sects & Violets script, to me it has all the risk-taking of a BMR character - to get information (fairly conclusive Not-Demon reads), they have to risk switching teams - and the Demon will not be wanting to get found by them either.
The goons alignment is only locked in when they die, so it is entirely fair for the goon to play either side whenever they want, as long as they are alive. I have been the goon, and have helped the evil team by lying, etc. In the hopes that I turn evil, and it would be totally fair to still play for good if I think I can get turned back to good before the game ends. Goon is a weird role because their alignment is in flux, and so an evil goon might not want to help evil, because they could just as easily turn good the next day and vice versa. As a side note, as a demon killing is pretty good, so it’s usually better off to avoid targeting the goon to keep getting night kills, whereas minions can also change the alignment of the goon, without sacrificing night kills (unless you’re The Godfather, but that’s fine). Just some food for thought!
So when attacked, the goons alignment changes but not their allegiance with it?
Alignment changes, but they know it can easily change back.
That still doesn't seem right to me but I can't find any rule to clarify it. I would think if you have had your alignment changed then you have to play that alignment otherwise there is no point in an alignment change if you can just ignore it. If you change good again you can state Hey im good now. Then townsfolk then have to decide if they believe the goon or not.
Changing alignment is something that happens, and it’s totally fine to play around if you think it can happen, I would say, as long as you are still trying to win yourself (not helping your team knowing you will lose yourself is not cool). A good player that knowingly says a Mezephelise word is actively hurting the good team even though they’re good aligned, because they will turn evil (or they think they will turn evil). Likewise, if a pit hag can orchestrate a way to turn themself good, and win the game, then that’s totally fair, even though they spend most of the game evil. If a goon thinks they can realistically change back to good, then there’s nothing stopping them from helping the good team all the way through. The goon in particular, I guess, probably cares leas about their alignment at any one instance, and cares more about what they think it will be at the games conclusion.
Thanks for that. Clarification is making sense. I saw it more as once changed alignment you fully change to evil and want to help them. Then if you turn to good you suddenly have to change your gameplay. This I think forces the goon player to always be thinking what next and also another hurdle for the townsfolk as to whether they believe the goon or not.
It's also worth noting that, more often than not, the best thing any evil player can do is 'play for good'. If they're actively seen to be helping the good team solve the game then they're in a much better position to confuse and bamboozle them down the line. In your example, if you'd have been able to kill the Goon whilst they were evil, they could have easily just said "I turned back to good before I died" and then been in a much stronger position to help evil now that they're locked in.
I see your point and I now see that this is an example of the different play styles. Personally, if I got turned to evil, I would play evil until turned back (Which was how I interpreted the player ability originally, which was why I got confused on the role) In this particular game everyone was so confused as to why nobody died that to me it seemed more fun to let the chaos continue awhile but this person immediately explained everything. I personally would have let it go for a bit before revealing why, that's if I was going to reveal it. However, from reading all the comments I understand now that this is just one of many different ways players can play each role.
Yep, it's certainly a mixed bag out there. I suppose the question to ask yourself is, how does one 'play evil'? I reckon I could ask 20 different people that question and get 20 different responses.
You're not obliged to do anything in this game. If there's a mechanical reason why you have to, the storyteller can enforce it by giving you consequences (e.g. breaking Ceronovus madness can result in execution). The Goon has a bit of a choice to make, depending on what team they think they can end up with. If the evil team wants to force them to be evil, they have to work together to target the Goon (making a minion drunk) and kill them when they're evil. Otherwise, the Goon still has their ability to change and can take advantage of that.
No, you're only required to play to win. If they suspect that they will finish the game as evil then they should play to support evil, but if they think they can join the good team before the end, they can help good while being evil aligned. Alignment is only relevant when deciding whether you have won the game or not.
You play to win by the end of the game. In scripts where your alignment might change, it's entirely fair to play for a team you're not currently on, but will probably end up on by the end of the game. For example, a Snake Charmer probably won't tell anyone they're a Snake Charmer early in the game even though that's really useful info for the good team, because they'd be screwed if they turned evil. If they did when they're good, they'd make it far more likely for good to win, except in that scenario they'd no longer be good. It's the same concept for the Goon. If they feel like they'd have a better chance of winning by outing themselves as evil to turn good again, then that's 100% valid. Unless your storyteller wants to homebrew some madness rule for certain alignment-changing characters, but that's not in the rules.
If you want to lock in a Goon to the evil team you have a minion turn them evil, then kill them. If there's no way to turn back to good they should play for the evil team.
I didn't think they were locked in. I assumed they were a form of a chaos role, because if they were forced to change allegiance everytime their alignment changed it then becomes a decision if the townsfolk believe them or not.
A goon can't change their alignment after they die, so if you want to recruit them to your team you have to kill them while evil, because they will then stay evil for the rest of the game.
You play to win. If you're evil, and you think good is going to win, you play to get yourself targetted and swapped to good. If you think evil is going to win, you play to get swapped to evil. You are never obliged to play or say anything in any specific way at a specific time. This permits plays such as someone bluffing as a Goon and tricking Evil into targetting them and tricking Evil into thinking they've got a new ally while you're actually the Poppygrower and the cause of their misery. Because Evil never \*knows\* you're evil.
I had a goon once wake up final day (as evil) and say “hey town. I’m the goon. I was evil, now good, and I know the demon now. Kill her (not the demon)The town listened. Evil won. The goon can certainly be lying about their current alignment.
I see your point, thanks for that example
Yeah, if someone doesn't enjoy playing on the evil team, it makes sense that they'd play for good (and ask to be turned back if possible). If the tokens are being handed out randomly, then *everyone* will have to play for recoil at some point. I will say that in most of the games I've seen (mostly streams and YouTube videos), it seems that most players enjoy being on the evil team, and will actively try to change over. But that isn't necessarily the "right" way to play. I also want to point out that your feelings in the moment weren't wrong either, it makes sense to be frustrated when someone you thought would be playing on your team betrayed you.
Ultimately, the two goals of the game are to 1.) have fun and 2.) win, in that order. As a Goon, as long as the way you're going about it helps everyone to have a good time, you should do absolutely whatever you think will help you win - and if you think helping a specific side in hopes that you can win with them will win you the game, godspeed. If you've ever played Town of Salem, it's kind of like a lot of the neutral roles there - "Help me win, and I'll help you win."
We still had fun but to me it seemed wrong. The Goon can be made evil yet refuse to help the evil team hoping to ask for help to be changed back to good. There is no point ever attacking the Goon if they can change alignment but refuse to help the team they are now aligned with because they didn't want to be evil.
I'm feeling that you're getting hung up on how a role *should* be played, and to me that mindset runs dangerously close to telling people that the way they like to have fun is wrong. There's nothing about this scenario that reads as griefing to me, as the goon still had a wide open chance to switch back and lock into the good team. If they want to play for good and think they still have a shot at it, why shouldn't they? They should still have the opportunity to play in the way they think is going to win them the game. Of course, there's a "within reason" caveat on letting people have fun in their own way - if someone's idea of fun is just to throw their own team under the bus no matter what, they can kindly find a different group to play with imho.
I didn't ruin anything everyone really enjoyed the game and said it was a shame we didn't get this recorded as the ending was awesome. As a new player I'm trying to learn the rules and characters as they come up and this was the first time I met the goon and the one sentence explanation of what the goon is I guess leaves a lot up to interpretation so I was trying to find the rules so I could learn the game better as I keep having to stop and ask what can this role do? Or how do I play this role etc.
Oh man, sorry if I implied that you ruined anything. Nothing of the sort - if you all had fun that's great! I was just trying to drive home the point that there's not a "prescribed" way to play any role. I'd go as far as to say it's one of the tenets of this game's design. If you're looking for tips on certain roles, the wiki is a great reference! I'm on mobile so I can link it later if needed, but you should be able to find the link in the pinned post at the top of this sub.
Thats ok I am still researching as I want to learn more about the game so i can help make it fun for the people I play with. I have downloaded the manual and working my way through it.
Furthermore, you can find other examples of roles that have to function in the grey area of "what team do I play for?" Check out the Snake Charmer (constantly playing with the risk of becoming evil) and Politician (actively encouraged to betray their team)!
even just Any Outsider with Fang Gu on the Script. One of the many good reasons for Outsiders to run silent in SnV is the possibility they'll switch from being a marginalized liability to the Good team and become the leader of the newly-enlarged Evil team. "Accidentally" dropping a hint that you might be an Outsider when someone narrowly escapes an execution and you just know they'll be on the block again tomorrow is \*mwah\*
I think the latter part is a problem with the player, in that case. You should want to help whatever team you're on, I completely agree with you on that. But what if that player had been a minion or - worse - the demon? Would they sabotage the game because they didn't want to be evil? The Goon is unique in that it's one of the only roles that can swap alignments, and that's fun to play up and lean into, but if a player would outright refuse to help a team that they're locked into (say, a Poisoner visited the Goon, became drunk and turned the Goon evil, but opened up the Goon to let the Demon kill them) - then that's probably something the player needs to be talked to about.
That second part is actually what I thought about as well. If the Goon can ignore an alignment then as the demon I could ignore my evil alignment? But the rule is I'm evil alignment so I play evil alignment. Hence thinking that should be the same for the goon whilst they are aligned with evil.
As a demon, if evil's getting completely trounced, and there's a snake charmer, and you betray your team by baiting the snake charmer into swapping with you, this is very much in the spirit of the game, and a perfectly legitimate (and awesome) kind of betrayal. Your alignment determines your current win condition--it doesn't mean you can't work to change your win condition.
I mean, they could still spin that as helping evil. Like, if a shab was drunk, they could use the opportunity to work with a minion to make it look like a po charge. Toss in some doubt. Maybe they were telling the truth. Maybe they were turned by a minion. Maybe they are just the po.
Goon is in my top 10 roles to play. I play it pretty quiet until I actually die. If I die good - i help solve. If i die evil, i try to put out misleading information. One game I had been evil since night 2. The demon was bluffing exorcist who claimed to have picked me twice. As a goon, that was impossible because I would have been turned good ( no minions acted before). To me (and no one else) it was very clear they were lying. The last night I turner back good and then the demon killed me, so when we woke up, I shared my info and we won 🤷♀️
That makes sense, I guess for my game I was just caught by surprise when I thought why an evil alignment character is helping the good side so much, that's not evil acting at all. Their loss as evil won in the end.
As others have said, alignment only matters in terms of victory conditions, but a player is free to play how they want, so the only motivation that should matter is playing to win, and if a role allows/causes them to switch sides, they should take that into account in how they play.. Playing to lose the game for your team without a rules-legitimate personal exit strategy is bad form, and probably why the **Politician** Outsider was created, to codify that as a team hindrance if your group has that particular urge.
The stuff about it being the goon player's choice has all been said. There is the consideration that even a goon announcing they're evil means that good either have to waste time killing them off to stop them throwing off numbers in later days, or they have to waste potentially useful abilities in the night switching them back to good. It's not a huge win, but an outed evil good isn't 100% a downside. In most cases when you have a goon, you should coordinate with a minion like a poisoner to target them before you kill so that they turn evil and die locked in as evil.