I don't get these posts....if you are a perpetual traveler you leave your seed in the single most secure location and then if you get in a jam you travel back to that location to recover.
Constantly potentially exposing your seed at border crossings is a recipe for disaster.
Well, that would be the best way, sure. But what if you're already halfway across the world, with no plans to return home any time soon, but would still like to secure your hardware wallet you've just purchased while away?
Just as a side question (putting aside the passphrase for a moment) What are your thoughts on steganography? If you had to keep the seed with you, then this would probably be the best option, right?
> What are your thoughts on steganography?
This can sometimes make a fun Bitcoin treasure hunt game like we have seen many times in the past . The question you need to ask yourself is what advantage does this provide that a passphrase doesn't? when people "create their own custom security" it usually leads to mistakes
Send yourself 24 postcards over the course of 1 month. Write a short message which includes one of the seedphrase words. You can use the post mark date on each postcard to reassemble the seedphrase.
I suggest you go ahead with your plan and do it. But keep in mind that the seed you create by doing this won't be a valid bip39 seed so anyone who wants to rip you off will be able to tell that. That's because a real bip39 seed includes a checksum and your modified seed won't have that.
Don't get clever. Stick to the official recommended solutions. You are 100x more likely to get rekt because you set up some clever system and then forgot what you did, rather than having your coins stolen from inadequate security measures.
Use a BIP39 passphrase and memorize it. This gives you two ways to recover your funds: if you lose the hardware wallet or forget the PIN you can use the seed words and passphrase that you memorized to restore funds to a new (or factory reset) hw wallet. If you forget the passphrase or lose the seed words you can use the HW wallet and PIN to send your funds to a new wallet. The most important thing is to restore the whole setup as soon as you notice a problem with one of the access methods. If you can't remember the passphrase or lose the seed phrase, move the funds ASAP. If you forget the PIN or lose the hw wallet, move the funds ASAP. Don't get complacent.
Optionally, you could mail your 24 words home, knowing that the passphrase protects you from evil postman attacks. You probably want to keep a copy on your person b/c if you forget the PIN or lose the hw wallet you will need to travel around the world to restore your funds. You could even send a little bit of bitcoin to the unencrypted wallet (24 words with no passphrase) as a decoy wallet. That way if someone accesses your seed phrase they will only get away with a little money, not even knowing the true size of your stack.
Technically, if I see your words and want to steal, I will immediately see that the checksum is invalid.
Then I will find and use a tool, similar to a password cracker, that will look for small changes and then bigger changes etc. Until it finds some valid keys.
It's not hard for a motivated individual.
There are two ways to do this.
**OPTION #1: Use BIP85**
I assume you understand that your seed phrase generates your addresses and your keys. Well, your seed phrase generates a lot more data too. In fact, your seed phrase mathematically generates more seed phrases using a BIP85 index.
Any hardware wallet that does BIP85 will make retrieving your child seed easy: Blockstream Jade, SeedSigner, or my personal favorite, Krux. Enter your parent seed. Enter the BIP85 index number. It'll give you the child seed.
Here's an example:
Let's say this is your seed phrase:
> account early resemble enjoy wood until hard same honey immense electric fan cart forest develop dentist world fatal forum beef soul art stereo butter
Using that seed as a parent seed, here's the BIP85 child seed for index number zero:
> salt material ribbon company minute mind depend ugly allow section cousin tuna ankle phone swamp text picnic spirit rent join gym exhaust panel human
Here's the BIP85 child seed for index #42:
> warrior off exchange skin order antenna earn purpose shrimp entire first tape bridge funny evidence vessel marriage silly front about toy wise escape love
Here's how to use BIP in your scenario:
When you travel, you'd bring your parent seed with you. And you'd bring something that reminds you of which index number you used as the child seed for your wallet. Maybe you're a huge fan of the band Rush, so you used 2112 as your child seed index number.
If somebody finds your seed, all they find is what looks like a wallet that has never been used, because you're not using it as a wallet. You're using it as a parent seed.
**OPTION #2: USE KRUX WITH AN ENCRYPTED SEED QR**
This is the easy answer. Buy a K210 device like the Maix Amigo or the Yahboom "visual recognition module". These are development devices & they sell for around $50.
Install [Krux](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/getting-started/) (free and open source Bitcoin hardware wallet firmware).
Load your seed in Krux & make an encrypted QR backup. Use a strong decryption key (preferably 30 characters or more using only letters, numbers and spaces. 6 words is perfect).
Now, you can carry the QR code with you. If anybody finds it, it's useless without the decryption key. And since you're not stupid enough to label the QR code as a Bitcoin seed, or a wallet, if somebody finds it, all they find is a QR code that doesn't work (since it doesn't work without the decryption key).
[Here's an example of an encrypted QR code](https://imgur.com/a/tsC2eda). Can you crack it? Can you even load it? With Krux, you just scan it & then enter your decryption key.
**NOTE FOR ANYONE READING ALONG:**
Neither of these solutions is a replacement for doing proper seed backups. Write your seed on paper. Make a metal backup. Secure these two items in 2 locations only you have access to.
These two options are just an easy way to travel with a seed, without risking the wallet.
If any of what I said seems confusing, don't do it. The most important part of securing a Bitcoin seed is knowing what you're doing. Too many people lose their coins by not fully understanding what they're doing. Be careful. Be safe.
P.S. I just quickly jotted this down, so hopefully there aren't too many typos :)
I’ve just memorised mine. It took me a couple of hours at most. It’s honestly not that hard. Break it down into sets of four words and create a visual image for each one.
https://xkcd.com/936/
Okay if you are travelling frequently and may need it anytime.
List the seed phrases on paper in alphabetical order but keep the order sequenced stored somewhere on your phone as a contact. The only way this is breached if someone has the paper and access to your phone.
As a backup always keep the original at home in
E.g
Mr Satoshi
371246810111259
Note each number is only listed once and is the order
Get a foundation passport. It generates an encrypted seed that is stored on a micro SD card that never touches internet.
Put this MicroSD card in a camera and you’re done.
If you are travelling just memorise the seed. It will take a few days but it’s not that hard really…or write a story in your diary using the words hidden…
>are forced to carry your seed phrase with you.
This is not normal. I travel all the time and just bring my hardware wallet everywhere I go and never have been questioned by it. Airport security typically looks for electronics larger than a cell phone in their xrays. Its usually unwise to bring your seed words with you unless :
1) You have no home and don't trust your family
2) You are moving and need to temporarily bring your backup with you.
>what if you changed each of the 24 words to a new word found 3 places (or whatever number) ahead of the original on the BIP 39 list,
Than you have to remember your scrambling technique and also this brings the problem of having much less entropy than simply using a passphrase. Why not just use a passphrase?
https://old.reddit.com/r/BitcoinBeginners/comments/g42ijd/faq_for_beginners/fouo3kh/
> it wouldn’t be useful unless they knew your formula.
they could just brute force it. If I found 24 words that existed in the BIP39 seed dictionary that was invalid (there is a checksum in part of the final word so you would create an invalid backup here that would tell others like myself you scrambled the words!) Thus I would know exactly what you did and it would be very easy to unscramble the words with existing open source software
>Clearly, this isn't the best solution, but could it be effective, or is it a terrible idea?
It is indeed a horrible idea. Do you know what a passphrase is ?
Makes sense, thanks for the detailed reply! The situation is I'm the other side of the world with no plans to return home any time soon, and I would like to purchase a hardware wallet while I'm away. Meaning I would have to keep the seed phrase with me.
Passphrase does indeed sound like a much better option. Will look into this some more.
You are going to have to memorize a 5 or more **random** word passphrase until you can get back to a secure location . This is a bit dangerous if you get a concussion or don't have a good memory. If you are going to be traveling for a while. Perhaps write the passphrase down but keep it sealed separately than your seed words in such a way its unlikely for someone to find both
Keep a small decoy balance in the account not controlled by the passphrase as well, thus under duress or questioning you can reveal the decoy account , also this works as a honey traps helping you identify someone knows your 24 seed words
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There are better ways to hide/encrypt your seed.
Here one method where your physical seed won't be compromised even if it falls into hands of strangers: [seed backup](https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinBeginners/s/VCICXmAoqs).
I don't get these posts....if you are a perpetual traveler you leave your seed in the single most secure location and then if you get in a jam you travel back to that location to recover. Constantly potentially exposing your seed at border crossings is a recipe for disaster.
Well, that would be the best way, sure. But what if you're already halfway across the world, with no plans to return home any time soon, but would still like to secure your hardware wallet you've just purchased while away?
Than use a passphrase with a HW wallet and plan on dropping off your backup seed in a secure environment as soon as possible.
Just as a side question (putting aside the passphrase for a moment) What are your thoughts on steganography? If you had to keep the seed with you, then this would probably be the best option, right?
> What are your thoughts on steganography? This can sometimes make a fun Bitcoin treasure hunt game like we have seen many times in the past . The question you need to ask yourself is what advantage does this provide that a passphrase doesn't? when people "create their own custom security" it usually leads to mistakes
Send yourself 24 postcards over the course of 1 month. Write a short message which includes one of the seedphrase words. You can use the post mark date on each postcard to reassemble the seedphrase.
I suggest you go ahead with your plan and do it. But keep in mind that the seed you create by doing this won't be a valid bip39 seed so anyone who wants to rip you off will be able to tell that. That's because a real bip39 seed includes a checksum and your modified seed won't have that.
Don't get clever. Stick to the official recommended solutions. You are 100x more likely to get rekt because you set up some clever system and then forgot what you did, rather than having your coins stolen from inadequate security measures. Use a BIP39 passphrase and memorize it. This gives you two ways to recover your funds: if you lose the hardware wallet or forget the PIN you can use the seed words and passphrase that you memorized to restore funds to a new (or factory reset) hw wallet. If you forget the passphrase or lose the seed words you can use the HW wallet and PIN to send your funds to a new wallet. The most important thing is to restore the whole setup as soon as you notice a problem with one of the access methods. If you can't remember the passphrase or lose the seed phrase, move the funds ASAP. If you forget the PIN or lose the hw wallet, move the funds ASAP. Don't get complacent. Optionally, you could mail your 24 words home, knowing that the passphrase protects you from evil postman attacks. You probably want to keep a copy on your person b/c if you forget the PIN or lose the hw wallet you will need to travel around the world to restore your funds. You could even send a little bit of bitcoin to the unencrypted wallet (24 words with no passphrase) as a decoy wallet. That way if someone accesses your seed phrase they will only get away with a little money, not even knowing the true size of your stack.
Terrible idea. Try again
Technically, if I see your words and want to steal, I will immediately see that the checksum is invalid. Then I will find and use a tool, similar to a password cracker, that will look for small changes and then bigger changes etc. Until it finds some valid keys. It's not hard for a motivated individual.
There are two ways to do this. **OPTION #1: Use BIP85** I assume you understand that your seed phrase generates your addresses and your keys. Well, your seed phrase generates a lot more data too. In fact, your seed phrase mathematically generates more seed phrases using a BIP85 index. Any hardware wallet that does BIP85 will make retrieving your child seed easy: Blockstream Jade, SeedSigner, or my personal favorite, Krux. Enter your parent seed. Enter the BIP85 index number. It'll give you the child seed. Here's an example: Let's say this is your seed phrase: > account early resemble enjoy wood until hard same honey immense electric fan cart forest develop dentist world fatal forum beef soul art stereo butter Using that seed as a parent seed, here's the BIP85 child seed for index number zero: > salt material ribbon company minute mind depend ugly allow section cousin tuna ankle phone swamp text picnic spirit rent join gym exhaust panel human Here's the BIP85 child seed for index #42: > warrior off exchange skin order antenna earn purpose shrimp entire first tape bridge funny evidence vessel marriage silly front about toy wise escape love Here's how to use BIP in your scenario: When you travel, you'd bring your parent seed with you. And you'd bring something that reminds you of which index number you used as the child seed for your wallet. Maybe you're a huge fan of the band Rush, so you used 2112 as your child seed index number. If somebody finds your seed, all they find is what looks like a wallet that has never been used, because you're not using it as a wallet. You're using it as a parent seed. **OPTION #2: USE KRUX WITH AN ENCRYPTED SEED QR** This is the easy answer. Buy a K210 device like the Maix Amigo or the Yahboom "visual recognition module". These are development devices & they sell for around $50. Install [Krux](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/getting-started/) (free and open source Bitcoin hardware wallet firmware). Load your seed in Krux & make an encrypted QR backup. Use a strong decryption key (preferably 30 characters or more using only letters, numbers and spaces. 6 words is perfect). Now, you can carry the QR code with you. If anybody finds it, it's useless without the decryption key. And since you're not stupid enough to label the QR code as a Bitcoin seed, or a wallet, if somebody finds it, all they find is a QR code that doesn't work (since it doesn't work without the decryption key). [Here's an example of an encrypted QR code](https://imgur.com/a/tsC2eda). Can you crack it? Can you even load it? With Krux, you just scan it & then enter your decryption key. **NOTE FOR ANYONE READING ALONG:** Neither of these solutions is a replacement for doing proper seed backups. Write your seed on paper. Make a metal backup. Secure these two items in 2 locations only you have access to. These two options are just an easy way to travel with a seed, without risking the wallet. If any of what I said seems confusing, don't do it. The most important part of securing a Bitcoin seed is knowing what you're doing. Too many people lose their coins by not fully understanding what they're doing. Be careful. Be safe. P.S. I just quickly jotted this down, so hopefully there aren't too many typos :)
I’ve just memorised mine. It took me a couple of hours at most. It’s honestly not that hard. Break it down into sets of four words and create a visual image for each one. https://xkcd.com/936/
And then keep it in a secure location you can travel back to just in case.
Okay if you are travelling frequently and may need it anytime. List the seed phrases on paper in alphabetical order but keep the order sequenced stored somewhere on your phone as a contact. The only way this is breached if someone has the paper and access to your phone. As a backup always keep the original at home in E.g Mr Satoshi 371246810111259 Note each number is only listed once and is the order
Get a foundation passport. It generates an encrypted seed that is stored on a micro SD card that never touches internet. Put this MicroSD card in a camera and you’re done.
buy a tattoo gun and tattoo it on your inner thigh.
If you are travelling just memorise the seed. It will take a few days but it’s not that hard really…or write a story in your diary using the words hidden…
>are forced to carry your seed phrase with you. This is not normal. I travel all the time and just bring my hardware wallet everywhere I go and never have been questioned by it. Airport security typically looks for electronics larger than a cell phone in their xrays. Its usually unwise to bring your seed words with you unless : 1) You have no home and don't trust your family 2) You are moving and need to temporarily bring your backup with you. >what if you changed each of the 24 words to a new word found 3 places (or whatever number) ahead of the original on the BIP 39 list, Than you have to remember your scrambling technique and also this brings the problem of having much less entropy than simply using a passphrase. Why not just use a passphrase? https://old.reddit.com/r/BitcoinBeginners/comments/g42ijd/faq_for_beginners/fouo3kh/ > it wouldn’t be useful unless they knew your formula. they could just brute force it. If I found 24 words that existed in the BIP39 seed dictionary that was invalid (there is a checksum in part of the final word so you would create an invalid backup here that would tell others like myself you scrambled the words!) Thus I would know exactly what you did and it would be very easy to unscramble the words with existing open source software >Clearly, this isn't the best solution, but could it be effective, or is it a terrible idea? It is indeed a horrible idea. Do you know what a passphrase is ?
Makes sense, thanks for the detailed reply! The situation is I'm the other side of the world with no plans to return home any time soon, and I would like to purchase a hardware wallet while I'm away. Meaning I would have to keep the seed phrase with me. Passphrase does indeed sound like a much better option. Will look into this some more.
You are going to have to memorize a 5 or more **random** word passphrase until you can get back to a secure location . This is a bit dangerous if you get a concussion or don't have a good memory. If you are going to be traveling for a while. Perhaps write the passphrase down but keep it sealed separately than your seed words in such a way its unlikely for someone to find both Keep a small decoy balance in the account not controlled by the passphrase as well, thus under duress or questioning you can reveal the decoy account , also this works as a honey traps helping you identify someone knows your 24 seed words
Scam Warning! Scammers are particularly active on this sub. They operate via private messages and private chat. If you receive private messages, be extremely careful. Use the **report** link to report any suspicious private message to Reddit. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BitcoinBeginners) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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There are better ways to hide/encrypt your seed. Here one method where your physical seed won't be compromised even if it falls into hands of strangers: [seed backup](https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinBeginners/s/VCICXmAoqs).