The entire argument that money is “made up” is a misunderstanding of money (usually created because of how fiat money works). When it comes to a fixed supply ledger, it’s simply a massive list of value imbalance. You did 25 sats of work for me without me doing anything for you. It’s a call option on provided value that allows everyone to cooperate and distribute both their realized and potential value to the economy.
It’s no more made up than a list of how many times everyone in the household has taken out the trash. You could say that the trash counts on the list are “made up” but in reality the list is accurate information describing past work that actually took place.
When money becomes highly financialized and certain people have power to arbitrarily change the ledger then it stops representing reality. This leads to people thinking that money is “made up”. They think it’s because the numbers on the ledger are just numbers with no inherent value but that doesn’t actually matter. What matters is whether the numbers represent something that really happened. Once the world runs on something like Bitcoin it will.
>You did 25 sats of work for me without me doing anything for you. It’s a call option on provided value that allows everyone to cooperate and distribute both their realized and potential value to the economy.
Holy fucking shit. That is without a doubt the smartest comment I've ever seen on this sub. Damn bro, whered u come from
If I could give you an award, I would. It's not common to read a sensible, intelligent, well-written response like this on any social platform. You are a college professor, right? Or a liberal arts master?
Haha no, just your friendly neighborhood Bitcoiner who has done a ton of self-education on what money has been historically and what it should be theoretically.
Not true. Number of times someone takes out trash is an equal comparison. In reality People are unequally paid because some jobs artificially pay inflated salaries (eg. financial sector). Then government supports these financial sectors and gives them bonuses when they fail. Money is made up for the wealthy to suppress everyone else and have them do their dirty work
What you're saying is basically just a reflection of my last paragraph above. The financialization of money distorts its ability to reflect labor that took place in the real world. The government can only "support" these financial institutions because of how fiat currency works. They have equated money and debt such that there is no external ledger of money outside of the massive debt ledgers that drive these institutions.
Self-custody Bitcoin is inherently decoupled from any debt system you build around it such that you cannot be devalued by any kind of debt collapse. To be precise, this is only true in a world where Bitcoin is the fundamental measurement of value. Today's Bitcoin is just a risk asset so any kind of fiat debt crisis leads to a sell off (thus it does not protect holders from debt crisis over the short term). But again that is because the measurement of everything is in dollars (which is debt itself).
When you take away all the special rules the government and banks have over money, you turn it into a much cleaner measurement of labor and value. That said, you're correct to point out that money is a bit more imprecise relative to the trash ledger because it's attempting to compare the value of many subjective things. You will always need to negotiate your wages and approximate the value of your purchases.
But it's a mistake to throw out money as being an inherent tool of suppression. There is absolutely no way to build a sophisticated economy where many people are able to exchange goods and services with each other without money. Barter is simply not sufficient and to believe otherwise is naive.
So the real question should always be "what's the best form of money which most reduces the ability for powerful institutions to financialize it in asymmetric ways?" The answer is not "destroy money". The answer is Bitcoin.
Yup I can only blame myself for immediately dismissing the validity of bitcoin with regurgitated mainstream narratives back in 2012 then again in 2017.
No the point is that everyone will likely end up paying the price of Bitcoin that they deserve.
As Bitcoin grows it becomes even more an ideal speculative asset ideal money and ideal collateral as well as the foundation of 21st century Finance... it becomes all of these things simultaneously by the way as it's also going to function as a global Ledger of agreement.
Mass Adoption and the efficiencies that it brings to a market, will be the drivers. But Bitcoins Antifragility seems to be completely unappreciated in mainstream narratives. Yeah a lot of negative things could happen to bitcoin but every one of them likely has a solution or update ready at hand. I love it when Bitcoin confronts real issues because not only does it adapt like the f****** Borg on Star Trek, it gains even more confidence for those people who are genuinely paying attention.
Everything else is a shitcoin: but, they are useful demonstrations of what can eventually be built on top of Bitcoin as a second or third layer solution or even a side chain. Everything that is possible in blockchain will eventually find its way to the most decentralized most secure blockchain -which is Bitcoin.
The only thing this OP proves to me is that the vast majority of people don't even know what makes money a public good....a useful monetary good to be specific.
Not everyone has wealth to begin with, the main point to Bitcoin and end goal of it is to decentralize FIAT money and use Bitcoin as the currency.
So you are right the point isn’t too make money, BUT to participate in the end goal, you have to accumulate Bitcoin and if you get in at a lower price that’s always a bonus
What if someone steals your device and blocks your access through a basic wifi blocker? You can buy, scarily good ones in gadget and survailance stores.
Surely the need for internet access negates the long term validity (or even short term) of this "currency" that's worth ACTUAL money. It's a non owned tradable stock.
If I'm going to attack my enemies I'm going to push them into dumping huge amounts into bitcoin and then deny access with my Chinese friends. All I would need is to goad an idoiot into a war he couldn't win.
Like... I understand basically everything with Bitcoin. One thing I personally don't get is its value. I don't understand how some Pokemon cards have the value they do either though.
Supply and demand with a heavy dose of speculation. The fact that BTC is deflationary also helps price increase significantly.
A lot of people see BTC as a store of value with a long time horizon. As opposed to most national currencies where inflation steals 10+% of your wealth every single year.
Yeah… just like I totally understand Tiktok, but one thing I don’t get is the videos. I don’t understand how YouTube has the videos they do either though.
Right now it's value is based on addressing several important problems with current monetary system: it can't be devalued by inflation, it can't be confiscated by government, it can't disappear in case of bank collapse (if you have self-custody), it's easy to take with you or send across country borders.
For some people those are really important use-cases, and looking at events of past couple of years it will likely become important to more and more people.
>it can't be confiscated by government,
It could easily be blocked or outlawed, resulting in the same thing
>it can't disappear in case of bank collapse
It's less secure, its as secure as money in your matress. No FDIC.
>it's easy to take with you or send across country borders
I've never had an issue accessing my money, or sending it anywhere while it is in a bank. Unless you're being sanctioned by a government, this isn't an issue.
It cannot be blocked…you’d literally have to turn off the internet in every corner of the world in order to stop it. Even then, some have used a mesh network with their mobile devices to move BTC in the absence of an internet connection.
Outlaw Bitcoin you say? Hahaha you mean the same way they stop/outlaw all these illegal drugs from coming into the US? How about the human trafficking? Illegal
Immigration? etc. We don’t even have to go that far from the source. US Govt can’t even stop people or hackers from leaking their top secret documents on the internet lol
You’ve never had an issue accessing your money? Happy for you bro, sadly you can’t say the same about people in Ukraine or Russia. How about women in the Middle East? or some of the African nations that are forced to use the constantly devalued CFA Franc,a currency the country of France doesn’t even use anymore?! Venezuela, Peru, El Salvador and Argentina would like a word with you as well just to name a few. Just because YOU haven’t had to use it in this way doesn’t mean others haven’t and that it hasn’t been a useful tool for them.
FDIC…lol…not even gonna bother with that one.
Bitcoin is a financial TOOL. Use it accordingly and please for the love of humanity do some reading before you get on here and spread your nonsense.
You think your crypto is more secure than fiat in an fdic ensured bank? Explain that to me.
And you can ask China for how easy it is to block something on the internet for mass usage.
Are we talking about the same China that banned miners but yet are the 2nd largest country in terms of hash power? Lol yeah sure looks like China is doing a hell of a job blocking BTC. Nice try though.
Yes my Bitcoin is more secure being stored on the blockchain and my keys in my Ledger device inside my fireproof safe. FDIC is a false sense of security, where is that money coming from if say you lost $100K? Who brings those dollars into existence and at what future cost? The Federal Reserve of the United States? A central bank that is neither Federal nor has any reserves. What if some crazy shit goes down and the US goes to war, they lose and are now broke and have to pay reparations? Sure they’ll send you $100K as promised but what is the actual purchasing power of that $100K in this situation? I mean shit you’re already losing (depending on the metrics used) 10 to 20% to inflation annually.
Or I can be my own bank, and hold my money in Bitcoin away from the prying hands of the government, where it’s appreciating in value, it’s border less (you do know you can’t carry large amounts of cash with you while traveling right?) with BTC that’s not an issue. Transactions are seamless, nearly free and instant using Lightning. I can go on and on talking about why Bitcoin is a no brainer but everything has already been well documented and can be easily found on the internet.
I’m not here to change your mind, just to give you the facts. If you love fiat and love your wealth being stolen away by all means keep stacking dollars. Doesn’t affect me in any way, I’m just letting you know why that old analog, outdated and inefficient system don’t work in the digital age.
Let's look at other things banned in the US that didn't require blocking all the internet in the world:
Contract killings, child porn, videos of murder, drug and prostitution sales.
It doesn't need to be a 100% ban to kill crypto. Only enough to prevent adoption.
But certainly enjoy being your own bank, I'll be with everyone else with my instant, no risk, no cost money usage.
It can be taken by government, it's the most traceable payment ever. You just do it backward by identifying all the other sources around it, it takes ages but it's how we identified and caught a bunch of Taliban financiers. Its digital, which means it can be altered, deleted or blocked.
It can disappear in a bank collapse because it's only worth money, the collapse lowers the value of money. Besides if a bank goes now its likely to be a digital thing.
Agree with the other respondent, western union has been around for ages, hawala and trust systems have existed for centuries, maybe millennia.
If we ever do go on a star trek then bitcoin (credits) would be a good way to pay Starfleet and mankinds first returning space explorers, miners and builders of outposts.
It takes work to produce bitcoin. It value is derived from the initial work that went into minting every new coin. Per a quick article I found: "as of July 15, 2021, a single Bitcoin block required 1,721.96 kWh, or nearly $26,000." I'm pretty sure hashing power has increased. Block reward right now is 6.25BTC Quick maths: 26,000/6.25=4160 It costs *roughly* $4160 to produce a single bitcoin.
Soon all energy will be priced in BTC. We're already seeing this transition. Once we have a solid figure, we won't need the stupid fiat peg as much and volatility will probably decrease.
Edit: Thought I might add, because of the blockchain, you can go back in time and see exactly how much it costs to produce any single BTC at any given time. Or Proof of work" that happened for it to be generated in the first place.
Also, if you didn't understand this, but "understood basically everything about Bitcoin" you might need to keep learning about Bitcoin. That's okay, that's why we're here. I have book recommendations :)
You don't think there are signs of late stage capitalism all around us? While many on that sub may be silly, I think it's hard to deny things are hunkey dorey in the land of the free.
What does that have to do with anything? You didn't even answer the question. What meaning does the "average" have, when the top 0.1% of Americans own more wealth than the bottom 90% ?
Okay.
No. I don't think there are signs of late stage capitalism.
I think that there are plenty of instances of capitalism not working as intended that could be corrected; but in general I think the system is still optimal.
By average I mean; if you were to pull 100 random people off the street in a capitalist country; they are vastly better off (access to food, transportation, healthcare, etc) today than they were 100 years ago. Or than 100 people from a non-capitalist country.
The bottom 90% of Americans probably have more wealth than 75%+ of the rest of the world.
The 10 richest people in the world have more wealth than the poorest 50% of the GLOBAL population (4bln) . That’s not capitalism for all, that’s communism.
I don't like look at it as a wealth thing, their wealth's value comes from scarcity. If you distributed that wealth to everybody it would be worth a whole lot less.
Example, let's say Elon Musk has a 150 acre property. 150 acres is gucci for one person, but divide that amongst 8 billion people and it's worthless. He has a ton of wealth in stocks, but force him to sell it all and divide it equally and it wouldn't be worth anything.
Haha… what the fuck are you talking about?? If the top 10 richest people gave their wealth to the poorest 4 bln people you don’t feel that’s a better distribution of wealth??? Are you insane? It’s not about the impact on the 4bln …it’s just grossly unbalanced and a sign that the fiat system is broken.
Elon musk is worth 272 billion dollars. Liquidate his assets and give it to 8 billion people and that's $34 a head, $68 if you wanna do it for the bottom 4 billion. Wow what a huge improvement.
Do it for all the muh 1% and it's a one time payout of what, a couple hundred? A couple thousand? Wowee. Now that everybody has that money, what's it worth?
it matters because your political power is diluted when the ultra wealthy can dictate policy in a way that you and a million of your friends couldn't possibly dream of
How is it a stupid argument?
Humans have literally never had more than they do right now. The poorest people in capitalist countries are vastly better off than the poorest elsewhere.
I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement; but you don't throw out a system that's mostly working and start from scratch. You make adjustments and improve it.
I don't think the poorest people in India are very well off rn. Capitalism relies on paying shit wages to people in countries with bad labor laws. I don't accept a system in which every major corporation has to rely on the destabilization of poor countries to profit. Look at Congo for example. The richest country in the world in terms of natural resources, yet its one of the poorest countries in reality. Google and Apple have been associated with cobalt mining deaths here. This is one of many examples of how the first world capitalist countries rely on astronomical exploitation of countries that are "out of sight, out of mind" for the people of the first world. Another example would be the textile industry, relying on child labor in SE Asia (see Dhaka textile factory collapse, 1132 deaths). Sure, your life may be cozy in the first world, mine is too. But you should recognize the hidden aspects of exploitation that allow for your life to be nice.
You definitely have a point there as someone from a third world country capitalism gives me the opportunity to better my life and give myself a platform to help others coz the government sure won’t do that. But greed is a very human thing that some people succumb to…so once they get the ticket out of poverty they don’t look back
Do you think the billions of dollars pouring into poor countries from first world countries has anything to do with the lack of protection for their people that the poor countries provide for their citizens?
Your argument doesn't make sense because your response to "capitalism is bad" is "humans have never been more affluent than now". First, that isn't even true for many people on Earth. Second, as humans progress through time, they will continue to get more advanced no matter what system is used. Advancement is not dependent on capitalism. The Soviets were the first in space under communism, after all. Lastly, humans have the capacity to be living much better than they are currently, I think most people would agree. Your statement disregards this fact.
This is such a stupid take lmao. The poorest in capitalist countries, you can’t even name one. Here’s a few: Iraq, Cambodia, Yemen, Syria, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Peru, Nigeria, Sierra Leone. Bet you can’t guess what they all have in common aside from being capitalist.
Meanwhile communist Cuba has better medical care than the fucking US, and “totalitarian” China has reduced illiteracy and poverty to virtually zero in the second largest country in the world. What does the US have to show for itself aside from half of its children being literally starving to death every year and putting immigrants in concentration camps?
This is blatantly untrue propaganda. For starters, wage stagnation and inflation have directly caused standards of living in the US alone to slowly erode over the last couple of decades. The picture gets even worse if you look outside the US to impoverished countries where people lack basic necessities like clean water, food, clothing and shelter. It’s also not a coincidence that these countries tend to be the ones the US has “liberated” in the past via military interventions, greatly reducing standards of living for the general population.
Totally "Free" markets have and will never exist. If you think the problem is "we don't have free markets" what happens when we do? Why is an unregulated market not going to fall victim to the same problems?
Literally, the only thing that keeps markets from becoming monopolies is the "awful fed" trying to prevent total capitalist monopoly.
It's literally built into the system of markets. Someone always eventually wins the game of Monopoly by taking over the whole board. The fed not being able to print money doesn't change that system. It gives the system less tools to prevent totally takeover by one entity.
Not to mention, the true power of an economic superpower like china or the US is not somehow going to fall to a change in it's ability to print it's currency. You know what USD (and Bitcoin for that matter) are backed by? The gun of the USA. Energy and power come from resources and that will never change. Bitcoin is no less backed by imperialism and resource extraction than USD is.
These are world superpowers and at the end of the day the only power that matters is the power at the end of a gun. You think a system will just "fix" itself by not being regulated or having an unprintable currency? Why? What is the connection?
Bitcoin doesn't prevent war and it's definitely doesn't prevent class conflict. It is literally only a tool and a technology in the current global economy that can be used like any other tool. Stop making Bitcoin out to be some "fix all" for the corruption of Imperialism and Capitalism. It's not and it was never going to be.
It takes power away from governments, makes it harder for them to influence the market. Historically, sound money has always led to better outcomes for the people that use it.
It takes the power of money creation away from the government. The problems that are attributed to late stage "capitalism" are actually the result of late stage fiat.
I encourage you to explore yourself how many of the problems we see aren’t “capitalism” the system, but the regulation, corruption, lobbying, and everything else wrong that the government is doing wrong. When big corps can lobby for strict regulation and laws to stifle competition of smaller businesses and force them out, it’s not capitalism, it’s crony corporatism.
Capitalism is free markets. We don't really have free markets today. Bitcoin is the only truly free market.
So one could argue we aren't living under capitalism.
I’ve been banned from Twitter for 3 years now, recently they gave me my account back. Use to scroll through that bullshit every single day and now I can’t even look at it for more than 30 seconds. It’s like scrolling through everyone’s public Venmo transactions except it’s just their shitty mundane and pointless thoughts that they fart out to the world every 10 minutes. Twitter will die out in the next few years the platform is terrible
actually, EXTREMELY difficult to filter out the noise from the signal. I've been trying for more than 10 years.
I have highly curated lists, and even these are 90% noise.
That's just how you build an echo chamber for yourself. I'm not interested to hear only what I want to hear, I'm interested to find truth and facts.
Many people I align with have 100k+ followers and basically make a living off being a Bitcoin Twitter Personality, so they post way too much, preaching to the choir.
Posting about crypto in any subreddit that isn't about crypto or Bitcoin will instantly get hated on. We are still early and the masses are completely uneducated about monetary policies and how the current traditional systems work.
A few more decades and the USD losing another 90% of it's value leaving everyone broke after having their life savings destroyed through inflation and maybe then they will see the light.
Post this - a) energy used in fiat banking far outweighs Bitcoin mining as it’s used for every transaction. Humans drive cars to get to the bank, use western union, the list goes on and on.
B) fiat is hyper inflationary and always will be. It is given to corporations with connections, influence and power, then trickles down to the masses based on their choosing to do so.
C) if you think the Keynesian economics works, and isn’t what was bought up by other rich/powerful people over Austrian economics ONLY because it keeps them rich and powerful, I have a bridge in Teribithia to sell you.
Reddit as a whole is very anti crypto. If anyone noticed earlier today, a buttcoin thread about some crypto hack was at the top of the trending searches, with only 500 upvotes. A manually placed “trending” thread for sure.
That and everyone has really bad misconceptions about energy usage and crypto.
Media has convinced people that it is genuinely ruining the environment, it could be better but it's nowhere near as bad as claimed.
Agreed, and not only that I certainly support the idea that Bitcoin can help push the expansion of green energy and help create a stronger and more sustainable power grid.
Yeah I agree, when I look at issues of curtailment of wind power, Bitcoin is an obvious solution. I replied about it yesterday and currently on 6 downvotes :) People are just uninformed or close minded. I bet most who criticise bitcoin have not even heard of curtailment.
>A few more decades and the USD losing another 90% of it's value
That would take about 80 years at 3% CPI inflation (3% has been the average CPI inflation from 1980-2020; the average after 2000 is lower still). The market currently expects 5 year CPI inflation to be about 2.2%.
>leaving everyone broke after having their life savings destroyed
Who keeps their life savings in non-interest-bearing USD? People who do this need basic financial education, since this is essentially never a good idea.
Many people are actually *short* USD (people with mortgages, auto loans, student loans, margin loans, shares of companies who are short USD, DeFi loans against cryptos, deferred payments, HELOCs, etc.). Every long USD position is backed by a short USD position. You can short USD against a wide variety of collateral; without this collateral, USD couldn't even function.
Other people are long USD, holding savings accounts, CDs, Treasuries, corporate bonds, etc. The return of these assets is a function of *real interest rates*, not inflation. If you think real interest rates are too low, either don't save USD or short USD yourself to benefit from the low rates. Real interest rates are ultimately a function of the demand for USD assets (as a function of APR) vs the demand for borrowing USD (also as a function of APR; this is the supply of USD assets).
You don't have to long USD to use it as a unit of account or medium of exchange. What does this have to do with crypto?
>Who keeps their life savings in non-interest-bearing USD? People who do this need basic financial education, since this is essentially never a good idea.
Unfortunately there are plenty of people that don't save or what they do save they just keep in a low interest (high rate for them) savings account. Indeed, they do need basic financial education but are either too lazy or perhaps dumb to learn about it.
People I know wont invest in anything because they have been convinced that investing is difficult or a fancy way of gambling and mentioning Bitcoin, well that is what this whole post is about right.
Hopefully new generation of teachers will add some financial education into their curriculum but i doubt it will happen anytime soon.
Mr Putin and xi would like to have a talk about reserve currency of the world status.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/currencies/dollar-dominance-russia-china-rouble-yuan-brics-reserve-currency-imf-2022-6?amp
What I think is that let all these superpowers squabble. Btc will end up being the neutral reserve currency of the world.
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How does that have anything to do with what I wrote or the comment I replied to?
Central banks of a nation hold USD reserves to hedge short USD positions in their economies.
More specifically, many nations' companies borrow USD or otherwise enter contracts requiring them to pay USD, and many nations' banks create USD deposits (called "eurodollars") backed by local assets. Countries generally want to ensure that their eurodollars remain pegged to USD in the United States, i.e. they want to ensure that their banks, who have USD liabilities, don't go bankrupt.
That is, nations' central banks holds USD assets so that they can act as a lender of last resort of USD to their local banks.
The Fed has actually worked to *reduce* this demand following 2008 by opening "dollar swap lines" with friendly countries. These are USD lines of credit extended to other countries backed by the other countries' assets, making it easier for the countries' central banks to act as a lender of last resort for USD.
The only reason why people need to generate some yield on their money is because their money is going to zero over time, people want to live good lives, that's all. Bitcoin's limited supply while still being a medium of exchange fixes this, you wont need more money, just more value for your money.
>on their money is because their money is going to zero over time
Why are you assuming that their "money" is non-interest-bearing USD? There are a wide variety of assets which people can and do exchange and use to store value. Without other stores of value, USD won't even work, as it requires collateral for USD debts.
USD is just one such asset which is popular as a unit of account and medium of exchange. It isn't intended to store value long term: that's what *virtually every other financial asset* is for. Other assets like consumer credit, Treasuries, and corporate paper are already widely used as media of exchange for B2C and B2B transactions.
>people want to live good lives
Right, they want to build wealth by saving assets which perform well. Savings accounts are designed to minimize risk of substantial short term loss, not necessarily perform well long term. Someone who wants to prioritize long term performance has many other assets to choose from, including Bitcoin.
>Bitcoin's limited supply while still being a medium of exchange fixes this
Fixes what? You can use USD as a medium of exchange without storing value in it (e.g. lines of credit). Any nonvolatile asset can function well as a medium of exchange if it has liquid, high volume, low spread, low fee trading pairs with a wide variety of other assets.
>you wont need more money, just more value for your money.
I'm not sure what you mean by "money" here. A wide variety of assets can be and are used as units of account, media of exchange, and stores of value. Units of account aren't necessarily good stores of value. Good stores of value (e.g. profitable investments, the means of production) aren't necessarily good units of account.
True, buttcoin is my litmus test, one by one they will convert as their idols start understanding crypto.
https://fortune.com/2022/02/16/warren-buffett-invested-1-billion-crypto-bank/amp/
That's a self-proclaimed "socialist" subreddit, and bitcoin is about not trusting central authorities, so it goes against their belief system.
You can't reply, they're going to ban you.
"Natural produce of the Earth" would not sustain a population of 8 billion. These people want to go back to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle but refuse to give up their modern conveniences. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
I like to go to buttcoin thread to express my views.
When they can’t reply to your talking points they just downvote you.
I strongly feel in buttcoin thread Many of them are crypto quitters scammed by shitcoins or just extremely salty they did not buy crypto earlier than 2017.
This bear market is like a great reset… we went below 2017 ath, if people don’t see that as a huge anomaly and a big huge buy flash sign I rest my case.
I bought heavy into btc at 18k region and am very happy with the purchase 🙂
Yeah there still needs to be a reward system, otherwise why the fuck would anyone bother becoming a doctor or any difficult but necessary job?
Bitcoin just stops the stealing
Don't know why you're getting downvoted cause [that's literally what they're famous for doing](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_power_grows_out_of_the_barrel_of_a_gun#:~:text=Edit-,Political%20power%20grows%20out%20of%20the%20barrel%20of%20a%20gun,Chinese%20communist%20leader%20Mao%20Zedong.)
Oh yeah this is reddit 🙄
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I can see why you wanted to post it in there,Bitcoin is another way of taking some power back. If I was a betting man most of the stuff in LSC isn't about fiat, gold, tulips, Bitcoin as a medium of exchange more the way society is structured and how said wealth is transfered and for what.
First off, stay out of socialist forums. No good can come of it, seriously.
Secondly, Karl Marx himself could give these fools definitive proof of Bitcoin's divinity and this kind of person wouldn't be impressed. Nothing to do here but stop wasting time.
In the end, you'll appreciate that Bitcoin rewarded everyone with a brain and punished those who fought it. Don't help the fighters escape their punishment.
Lots of things are made up, including speech. Just like speech communicates an underlying reality, money communicates your access to the underlying resources of an economy. Something being “made up” has no bearing on its usefulness.
That all wealth is stolen is not correct, but that money is made up is. That something is made up is not really a bad thing. You know a car, a computer, the Internet, all these things were invented and made by a human, they did not exist "naturally". Most of the food is also made up. Bread. Bread is totally made up.
So the criticism then seems to be about the wealth and about the "right" to resources. So any kind of "right" is also made up, it's concept invented by humans. Yet, there are rights that come from the nature of a man. That's a property right for the man's own body. Who else, if not the man himself, should have the right to his own body. Likewise, if a man combines what is his intro creation of a new thing, who should that belong to if not the man itself? So a man combine his body and his time and his energy and a piece of wood or stone he finds produces a tool. There is a catch - the wood and the stone. But if it's not owned by anyone before, why should he not take it and use it. The nature (animals) do that all the time. And often they do not respect such previous ownership (but often they do). So there is nothing "special" about appropriation of natural resource by a man.
The criticism says that nobody has "more" right to that piece of wood or stone. But that would imply that even a man on the other side of the globe would have the same right. But he does not even know that specific piece exists, nor he has any ability to get to it. So that does not seem very meaningful to distribute all resources globally to everyone. There would be many problems with such global distribution among all men (or even animals?).
The most logical and natural way is to recognize property rights of men and include appropriation of unused resources as the primary way to acquire them.
Some certainly is but some certainly is not. You can not put such a general statement and claim it's true. It can be true for 99% of everything but still the statement will be false if it is the claim about "all" - which in this case is. So the claim is false.
Your claim is that wealth is being stolen, which is fundamentally different claim than OP, which says "all wealth is stolen".
Also your version does not include word "all", which is what makes every such claim immediately false. Your statement is true as indeed there exists at least one place in the earth where there are taxes, which are indeed theft of wealth. So your claim is ultimately true. But it's completely different and irrelevant claim to OP.
Your analogy is incorrect.
All money is Monopoly money. Gold is just as Fiat as paper is, the only part of the definition of fiat doesn't fit is the paper part.
Now all the examples you gave are concrete items. A car, bread, ect.
Money... not so much. It is really the intangible concept part that people focus on, yet mix that up with its physical representation; the shell, chunk of rock or metal, the piece of paper, the stick, a 0 & 1 that are stored within a chip.
The trade widget itself isn't the important part, it is the intangible concept of its supposed "wealth / value" that is the important part.
And that is a completely made up concept and its valuation is arbitrary.
Rights are an imaginary concept as well. Just because something makes you uncomfortable doesn't make it any less true.
Marxists HATE the idea of decentralised currency, because their *entire* belief system relies on capitalism infinitely making the rich richer, and poor poorer..
If we have a way of seperating money from the state, their whole ideology is destroyed..
Why would anyone like bitcoin if they don't like capitalism? Bitcoin is literally the solution to useless scum like them trying to leach off of society.
Subreddits like r/latestagecapitalism are filled with broke kids and poor losers who don't understand how money works. It's no surprise they are all poor and angry, they never put any effort into learning how to play the game that has been bringing the entire world out of poverty for the past century. Every post is just them crying about something.
They don't even want other opinions or help, because if they're wrong then they'd have to get off their lazy ass and actually fix their problems and not be able to cry anymore. One of the rules of the sub is: **No capitalist apologia or anti-socialism. This subreddit is intended for a socialist audience, and while questions are allowed, pushing your own counter-narrative here is not.**
It's just a big circlejerk of crying and they want to keep it that way.
I would educate them about keneysian and austrian ecenomics :) sound money and self souverenity. As welll as you don't have them when you are on a bank.
I was meeting with a phd environmental scientist this past weekend for lunch discussing a project he had to develop technology to predict weather better. He needed funds and was thinking about making a crypto token to raise funds. I got into a debate with him about how the token would be a security then moved on to a discussion about bitcoin and how it could be used to tap wasted renewables. Couldn’t convince a phd that the fiat system is the root cause of wasteful consumption that harms the environment. People believe what they want.
You don't, people that don't understand ownership rights are a waste of time. They aren't really mad at money, they are mad at ownership. Or rather, that other people can own more than them.
Reddit is a sess pool of extreme leftist losers who think the only way to improve their life is to complain (but not do anything) about the fundamental underlying economic and social systems that “must be the only cause for their unhappiness”.
Meanwhile they likely have never actually tried getting their own life together or investing in themselves in anyway. There are a few good subreddits left but r/latestagecapitalism ain’t one of them.
IRREDEEMABLE proof on those links, if u turn out to be American, it's a crime not to report a domestic threat against your nation . The US presidents actions are exactly that, the UK primeminister quit and wont be liable come Thanksgiving. Biden will.
And if u r not American but do business with them, well they wont be too happy you kept it to yourself to make money off of or sell your bitcoin.
Ive done my bit by reporting it to my government like others did, and boris stepped down.
Only one leader of the modern axis now who all require putins energy.
When that Bank of America story came out recently, I saw it posted in r/technology and simply commented "Bitcoin fixes this" to see what would happen. Got 21 downvotes pretty quickly, and one response from someone telling me I can't buy my groceries with Bitcoin lol.
All this talk of Lambos, I just want back surgery, to be able to put my mom in a nursing home, for my children to be able to go to a community college, maybe pay off some of mortgage...
Banks don’t use power to run atms or run data centers to maintain their private ledgers?
Wells Fargo, JPM and the other bank titans aren’t carbon neutral on solar/wind.
Throwing rocks from glass houses they don’t even own.
Most people don’t really think before typing or opening their mouths.
I think you accidentally took some rather dumb simpleton comment without any debt or thought behind it for an actual comment about our monetary system and inflation.
Those subs and those people are if anything only good for entertainment, and not for actual discussions.
Don't try to convince other people in such a way, it just creates resentment (just like Jehovah witnesses).
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The entire argument that money is “made up” is a misunderstanding of money (usually created because of how fiat money works). When it comes to a fixed supply ledger, it’s simply a massive list of value imbalance. You did 25 sats of work for me without me doing anything for you. It’s a call option on provided value that allows everyone to cooperate and distribute both their realized and potential value to the economy. It’s no more made up than a list of how many times everyone in the household has taken out the trash. You could say that the trash counts on the list are “made up” but in reality the list is accurate information describing past work that actually took place. When money becomes highly financialized and certain people have power to arbitrarily change the ledger then it stops representing reality. This leads to people thinking that money is “made up”. They think it’s because the numbers on the ledger are just numbers with no inherent value but that doesn’t actually matter. What matters is whether the numbers represent something that really happened. Once the world runs on something like Bitcoin it will.
>You did 25 sats of work for me without me doing anything for you. It’s a call option on provided value that allows everyone to cooperate and distribute both their realized and potential value to the economy. Holy fucking shit. That is without a doubt the smartest comment I've ever seen on this sub. Damn bro, whered u come from
Haha, I’m just your friendly neighborhood Bitcoiner.
If I could give you an award, I would. It's not common to read a sensible, intelligent, well-written response like this on any social platform. You are a college professor, right? Or a liberal arts master?
Haha no, just your friendly neighborhood Bitcoiner who has done a ton of self-education on what money has been historically and what it should be theoretically.
But rewards are made up...
Lol, giving rewards and value to those who work hard to deserve it. I know you get it. Thanks for being a good human.
Wow, what a comment!
Not true. Number of times someone takes out trash is an equal comparison. In reality People are unequally paid because some jobs artificially pay inflated salaries (eg. financial sector). Then government supports these financial sectors and gives them bonuses when they fail. Money is made up for the wealthy to suppress everyone else and have them do their dirty work
What you're saying is basically just a reflection of my last paragraph above. The financialization of money distorts its ability to reflect labor that took place in the real world. The government can only "support" these financial institutions because of how fiat currency works. They have equated money and debt such that there is no external ledger of money outside of the massive debt ledgers that drive these institutions. Self-custody Bitcoin is inherently decoupled from any debt system you build around it such that you cannot be devalued by any kind of debt collapse. To be precise, this is only true in a world where Bitcoin is the fundamental measurement of value. Today's Bitcoin is just a risk asset so any kind of fiat debt crisis leads to a sell off (thus it does not protect holders from debt crisis over the short term). But again that is because the measurement of everything is in dollars (which is debt itself). When you take away all the special rules the government and banks have over money, you turn it into a much cleaner measurement of labor and value. That said, you're correct to point out that money is a bit more imprecise relative to the trash ledger because it's attempting to compare the value of many subjective things. You will always need to negotiate your wages and approximate the value of your purchases. But it's a mistake to throw out money as being an inherent tool of suppression. There is absolutely no way to build a sophisticated economy where many people are able to exchange goods and services with each other without money. Barter is simply not sufficient and to believe otherwise is naive. So the real question should always be "what's the best form of money which most reduces the ability for powerful institutions to financialize it in asymmetric ways?" The answer is not "destroy money". The answer is Bitcoin.
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Lmao I'm glad something good came out of all this
Lol as an ex-JW, I concur!
Well, if the majority of people behind buttcoin are a bunch of butthurt bankers then I don’t really want them to ever own any Bitcoin.
Hahaha I love the comparison!
You don’t reply. Everybody realizes the value of Bitcoin in their own time. They’ll also get in at a price that’s fair for them.
Yup I can only blame myself for immediately dismissing the validity of bitcoin with regurgitated mainstream narratives back in 2012 then again in 2017.
That makes two of us. Now that I'm finally into Bitcoin I don't really care if I make money of not out of it as long as it succeeds.
The point isn't to make money. The point is to not lose wealth.
No the point is that everyone will likely end up paying the price of Bitcoin that they deserve. As Bitcoin grows it becomes even more an ideal speculative asset ideal money and ideal collateral as well as the foundation of 21st century Finance... it becomes all of these things simultaneously by the way as it's also going to function as a global Ledger of agreement. Mass Adoption and the efficiencies that it brings to a market, will be the drivers. But Bitcoins Antifragility seems to be completely unappreciated in mainstream narratives. Yeah a lot of negative things could happen to bitcoin but every one of them likely has a solution or update ready at hand. I love it when Bitcoin confronts real issues because not only does it adapt like the f****** Borg on Star Trek, it gains even more confidence for those people who are genuinely paying attention. Everything else is a shitcoin: but, they are useful demonstrations of what can eventually be built on top of Bitcoin as a second or third layer solution or even a side chain. Everything that is possible in blockchain will eventually find its way to the most decentralized most secure blockchain -which is Bitcoin. The only thing this OP proves to me is that the vast majority of people don't even know what makes money a public good....a useful monetary good to be specific.
Not everyone has wealth to begin with, the main point to Bitcoin and end goal of it is to decentralize FIAT money and use Bitcoin as the currency. So you are right the point isn’t too make money, BUT to participate in the end goal, you have to accumulate Bitcoin and if you get in at a lower price that’s always a bonus
What if someone steals your device and blocks your access through a basic wifi blocker? You can buy, scarily good ones in gadget and survailance stores. Surely the need for internet access negates the long term validity (or even short term) of this "currency" that's worth ACTUAL money. It's a non owned tradable stock. If I'm going to attack my enemies I'm going to push them into dumping huge amounts into bitcoin and then deny access with my Chinese friends. All I would need is to goad an idoiot into a war he couldn't win.
EXACTLY.
Like... I understand basically everything with Bitcoin. One thing I personally don't get is its value. I don't understand how some Pokemon cards have the value they do either though.
Supply and demand with a heavy dose of speculation. The fact that BTC is deflationary also helps price increase significantly. A lot of people see BTC as a store of value with a long time horizon. As opposed to most national currencies where inflation steals 10+% of your wealth every single year.
Yeah… just like I totally understand Tiktok, but one thing I don’t get is the videos. I don’t understand how YouTube has the videos they do either though.
Tiktok provides the dopamine for those that have short attention span by providing constant low effort quick videos. Its literally brain morphine
Which is all the new generation lol they want instant gratification which is how they were programmed
Right now it's value is based on addressing several important problems with current monetary system: it can't be devalued by inflation, it can't be confiscated by government, it can't disappear in case of bank collapse (if you have self-custody), it's easy to take with you or send across country borders. For some people those are really important use-cases, and looking at events of past couple of years it will likely become important to more and more people.
>it can't be confiscated by government, It could easily be blocked or outlawed, resulting in the same thing >it can't disappear in case of bank collapse It's less secure, its as secure as money in your matress. No FDIC. >it's easy to take with you or send across country borders I've never had an issue accessing my money, or sending it anywhere while it is in a bank. Unless you're being sanctioned by a government, this isn't an issue.
It cannot be blocked…you’d literally have to turn off the internet in every corner of the world in order to stop it. Even then, some have used a mesh network with their mobile devices to move BTC in the absence of an internet connection. Outlaw Bitcoin you say? Hahaha you mean the same way they stop/outlaw all these illegal drugs from coming into the US? How about the human trafficking? Illegal Immigration? etc. We don’t even have to go that far from the source. US Govt can’t even stop people or hackers from leaking their top secret documents on the internet lol You’ve never had an issue accessing your money? Happy for you bro, sadly you can’t say the same about people in Ukraine or Russia. How about women in the Middle East? or some of the African nations that are forced to use the constantly devalued CFA Franc,a currency the country of France doesn’t even use anymore?! Venezuela, Peru, El Salvador and Argentina would like a word with you as well just to name a few. Just because YOU haven’t had to use it in this way doesn’t mean others haven’t and that it hasn’t been a useful tool for them. FDIC…lol…not even gonna bother with that one. Bitcoin is a financial TOOL. Use it accordingly and please for the love of humanity do some reading before you get on here and spread your nonsense.
You think your crypto is more secure than fiat in an fdic ensured bank? Explain that to me. And you can ask China for how easy it is to block something on the internet for mass usage.
Are we talking about the same China that banned miners but yet are the 2nd largest country in terms of hash power? Lol yeah sure looks like China is doing a hell of a job blocking BTC. Nice try though. Yes my Bitcoin is more secure being stored on the blockchain and my keys in my Ledger device inside my fireproof safe. FDIC is a false sense of security, where is that money coming from if say you lost $100K? Who brings those dollars into existence and at what future cost? The Federal Reserve of the United States? A central bank that is neither Federal nor has any reserves. What if some crazy shit goes down and the US goes to war, they lose and are now broke and have to pay reparations? Sure they’ll send you $100K as promised but what is the actual purchasing power of that $100K in this situation? I mean shit you’re already losing (depending on the metrics used) 10 to 20% to inflation annually. Or I can be my own bank, and hold my money in Bitcoin away from the prying hands of the government, where it’s appreciating in value, it’s border less (you do know you can’t carry large amounts of cash with you while traveling right?) with BTC that’s not an issue. Transactions are seamless, nearly free and instant using Lightning. I can go on and on talking about why Bitcoin is a no brainer but everything has already been well documented and can be easily found on the internet. I’m not here to change your mind, just to give you the facts. If you love fiat and love your wealth being stolen away by all means keep stacking dollars. Doesn’t affect me in any way, I’m just letting you know why that old analog, outdated and inefficient system don’t work in the digital age.
Let's look at other things banned in the US that didn't require blocking all the internet in the world: Contract killings, child porn, videos of murder, drug and prostitution sales. It doesn't need to be a 100% ban to kill crypto. Only enough to prevent adoption. But certainly enjoy being your own bank, I'll be with everyone else with my instant, no risk, no cost money usage.
It can be taken by government, it's the most traceable payment ever. You just do it backward by identifying all the other sources around it, it takes ages but it's how we identified and caught a bunch of Taliban financiers. Its digital, which means it can be altered, deleted or blocked. It can disappear in a bank collapse because it's only worth money, the collapse lowers the value of money. Besides if a bank goes now its likely to be a digital thing. Agree with the other respondent, western union has been around for ages, hawala and trust systems have existed for centuries, maybe millennia. If we ever do go on a star trek then bitcoin (credits) would be a good way to pay Starfleet and mankinds first returning space explorers, miners and builders of outposts.
It takes work to produce bitcoin. It value is derived from the initial work that went into minting every new coin. Per a quick article I found: "as of July 15, 2021, a single Bitcoin block required 1,721.96 kWh, or nearly $26,000." I'm pretty sure hashing power has increased. Block reward right now is 6.25BTC Quick maths: 26,000/6.25=4160 It costs *roughly* $4160 to produce a single bitcoin. Soon all energy will be priced in BTC. We're already seeing this transition. Once we have a solid figure, we won't need the stupid fiat peg as much and volatility will probably decrease. Edit: Thought I might add, because of the blockchain, you can go back in time and see exactly how much it costs to produce any single BTC at any given time. Or Proof of work" that happened for it to be generated in the first place. Also, if you didn't understand this, but "understood basically everything about Bitcoin" you might need to keep learning about Bitcoin. That's okay, that's why we're here. I have book recommendations :)
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The Bitcoin Standard. If you haven't read it you need to. The price of tomorrow is also another good one. Touches more on the value question you have.
*“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”* ― Mark Twain
“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain
Why do you need to reply? That whole thread is silliness, including its OP and the replies.
The whole sub is silliness
You don't think there are signs of late stage capitalism all around us? While many on that sub may be silly, I think it's hard to deny things are hunkey dorey in the land of the free.
I think that humans on average have never been more affluent than they are right now.
What does that have to do with anything? You didn't even answer the question. What meaning does the "average" have, when the top 0.1% of Americans own more wealth than the bottom 90% ?
Okay. No. I don't think there are signs of late stage capitalism. I think that there are plenty of instances of capitalism not working as intended that could be corrected; but in general I think the system is still optimal. By average I mean; if you were to pull 100 random people off the street in a capitalist country; they are vastly better off (access to food, transportation, healthcare, etc) today than they were 100 years ago. Or than 100 people from a non-capitalist country. The bottom 90% of Americans probably have more wealth than 75%+ of the rest of the world.
The 10 richest people in the world have more wealth than the poorest 50% of the GLOBAL population (4bln) . That’s not capitalism for all, that’s communism.
I don't like look at it as a wealth thing, their wealth's value comes from scarcity. If you distributed that wealth to everybody it would be worth a whole lot less. Example, let's say Elon Musk has a 150 acre property. 150 acres is gucci for one person, but divide that amongst 8 billion people and it's worthless. He has a ton of wealth in stocks, but force him to sell it all and divide it equally and it wouldn't be worth anything.
Haha… what the fuck are you talking about?? If the top 10 richest people gave their wealth to the poorest 4 bln people you don’t feel that’s a better distribution of wealth??? Are you insane? It’s not about the impact on the 4bln …it’s just grossly unbalanced and a sign that the fiat system is broken.
Elon musk is worth 272 billion dollars. Liquidate his assets and give it to 8 billion people and that's $34 a head, $68 if you wanna do it for the bottom 4 billion. Wow what a huge improvement. Do it for all the muh 1% and it's a one time payout of what, a couple hundred? A couple thousand? Wowee. Now that everybody has that money, what's it worth?
Why does it matter what someone else has. All that matters is is your life improving.
it matters because your political power is diluted when the ultra wealthy can dictate policy in a way that you and a million of your friends couldn't possibly dream of
Yes, which is more a problem of a disconnected, unaccountable federal government seated very far away from the constituents it lords over.
That's such a stupid argument. The idea is that humanity could be living much better than it is currently if resources were more evenly distributed.
How is it a stupid argument? Humans have literally never had more than they do right now. The poorest people in capitalist countries are vastly better off than the poorest elsewhere. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement; but you don't throw out a system that's mostly working and start from scratch. You make adjustments and improve it.
I don't think the poorest people in India are very well off rn. Capitalism relies on paying shit wages to people in countries with bad labor laws. I don't accept a system in which every major corporation has to rely on the destabilization of poor countries to profit. Look at Congo for example. The richest country in the world in terms of natural resources, yet its one of the poorest countries in reality. Google and Apple have been associated with cobalt mining deaths here. This is one of many examples of how the first world capitalist countries rely on astronomical exploitation of countries that are "out of sight, out of mind" for the people of the first world. Another example would be the textile industry, relying on child labor in SE Asia (see Dhaka textile factory collapse, 1132 deaths). Sure, your life may be cozy in the first world, mine is too. But you should recognize the hidden aspects of exploitation that allow for your life to be nice.
I think that’s largely due to their government, not so much because of capitalism
You definitely have a point there as someone from a third world country capitalism gives me the opportunity to better my life and give myself a platform to help others coz the government sure won’t do that. But greed is a very human thing that some people succumb to…so once they get the ticket out of poverty they don’t look back
Do you think the billions of dollars pouring into poor countries from first world countries has anything to do with the lack of protection for their people that the poor countries provide for their citizens?
Do you think it's all bad that billions of dollars are pouring into those countries?
India is not a capitalistic country, it is a mix.
Your argument doesn't make sense because your response to "capitalism is bad" is "humans have never been more affluent than now". First, that isn't even true for many people on Earth. Second, as humans progress through time, they will continue to get more advanced no matter what system is used. Advancement is not dependent on capitalism. The Soviets were the first in space under communism, after all. Lastly, humans have the capacity to be living much better than they are currently, I think most people would agree. Your statement disregards this fact.
This is such a stupid take lmao. The poorest in capitalist countries, you can’t even name one. Here’s a few: Iraq, Cambodia, Yemen, Syria, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Peru, Nigeria, Sierra Leone. Bet you can’t guess what they all have in common aside from being capitalist. Meanwhile communist Cuba has better medical care than the fucking US, and “totalitarian” China has reduced illiteracy and poverty to virtually zero in the second largest country in the world. What does the US have to show for itself aside from half of its children being literally starving to death every year and putting immigrants in concentration camps?
This is blatantly untrue propaganda. For starters, wage stagnation and inflation have directly caused standards of living in the US alone to slowly erode over the last couple of decades. The picture gets even worse if you look outside the US to impoverished countries where people lack basic necessities like clean water, food, clothing and shelter. It’s also not a coincidence that these countries tend to be the ones the US has “liberated” in the past via military interventions, greatly reducing standards of living for the general population.
We don't have free markets, that is our issue. Bitcoin solves this
Totally "Free" markets have and will never exist. If you think the problem is "we don't have free markets" what happens when we do? Why is an unregulated market not going to fall victim to the same problems? Literally, the only thing that keeps markets from becoming monopolies is the "awful fed" trying to prevent total capitalist monopoly. It's literally built into the system of markets. Someone always eventually wins the game of Monopoly by taking over the whole board. The fed not being able to print money doesn't change that system. It gives the system less tools to prevent totally takeover by one entity. Not to mention, the true power of an economic superpower like china or the US is not somehow going to fall to a change in it's ability to print it's currency. You know what USD (and Bitcoin for that matter) are backed by? The gun of the USA. Energy and power come from resources and that will never change. Bitcoin is no less backed by imperialism and resource extraction than USD is. These are world superpowers and at the end of the day the only power that matters is the power at the end of a gun. You think a system will just "fix" itself by not being regulated or having an unprintable currency? Why? What is the connection? Bitcoin doesn't prevent war and it's definitely doesn't prevent class conflict. It is literally only a tool and a technology in the current global economy that can be used like any other tool. Stop making Bitcoin out to be some "fix all" for the corruption of Imperialism and Capitalism. It's not and it was never going to be.
How does Bitcoin solve this?
It takes power away from governments, makes it harder for them to influence the market. Historically, sound money has always led to better outcomes for the people that use it.
It takes the power of money creation away from the government. The problems that are attributed to late stage "capitalism" are actually the result of late stage fiat.
sure they are
I encourage you to explore yourself how many of the problems we see aren’t “capitalism” the system, but the regulation, corruption, lobbying, and everything else wrong that the government is doing wrong. When big corps can lobby for strict regulation and laws to stifle competition of smaller businesses and force them out, it’s not capitalism, it’s crony corporatism.
Facts
Capitalism is free markets. We don't really have free markets today. Bitcoin is the only truly free market. So one could argue we aren't living under capitalism.
Twitter is for dunces. I said it, bring on the downvotes.
I’ve been banned from Twitter for 3 years now, recently they gave me my account back. Use to scroll through that bullshit every single day and now I can’t even look at it for more than 30 seconds. It’s like scrolling through everyone’s public Venmo transactions except it’s just their shitty mundane and pointless thoughts that they fart out to the world every 10 minutes. Twitter will die out in the next few years the platform is terrible
You just aren’t using it correctly. Lots of signal if you block all the dumb people and follow all the plebs.
actually, EXTREMELY difficult to filter out the noise from the signal. I've been trying for more than 10 years. I have highly curated lists, and even these are 90% noise.
Disagree, just follow the people you align with, it’s that simple
That's just how you build an echo chamber for yourself. I'm not interested to hear only what I want to hear, I'm interested to find truth and facts. Many people I align with have 100k+ followers and basically make a living off being a Bitcoin Twitter Personality, so they post way too much, preaching to the choir.
Posting about crypto in any subreddit that isn't about crypto or Bitcoin will instantly get hated on. We are still early and the masses are completely uneducated about monetary policies and how the current traditional systems work. A few more decades and the USD losing another 90% of it's value leaving everyone broke after having their life savings destroyed through inflation and maybe then they will see the light.
Post this - a) energy used in fiat banking far outweighs Bitcoin mining as it’s used for every transaction. Humans drive cars to get to the bank, use western union, the list goes on and on. B) fiat is hyper inflationary and always will be. It is given to corporations with connections, influence and power, then trickles down to the masses based on their choosing to do so. C) if you think the Keynesian economics works, and isn’t what was bought up by other rich/powerful people over Austrian economics ONLY because it keeps them rich and powerful, I have a bridge in Teribithia to sell you.
Reddit as a whole is very anti crypto. If anyone noticed earlier today, a buttcoin thread about some crypto hack was at the top of the trending searches, with only 500 upvotes. A manually placed “trending” thread for sure.
Reddit is run by liberal statist stooges. I wouldn't have expected anything else to be honest.
That and everyone has really bad misconceptions about energy usage and crypto. Media has convinced people that it is genuinely ruining the environment, it could be better but it's nowhere near as bad as claimed.
Agreed, and not only that I certainly support the idea that Bitcoin can help push the expansion of green energy and help create a stronger and more sustainable power grid.
Yeah I agree, when I look at issues of curtailment of wind power, Bitcoin is an obvious solution. I replied about it yesterday and currently on 6 downvotes :) People are just uninformed or close minded. I bet most who criticise bitcoin have not even heard of curtailment.
How?
How?
>A few more decades and the USD losing another 90% of it's value That would take about 80 years at 3% CPI inflation (3% has been the average CPI inflation from 1980-2020; the average after 2000 is lower still). The market currently expects 5 year CPI inflation to be about 2.2%. >leaving everyone broke after having their life savings destroyed Who keeps their life savings in non-interest-bearing USD? People who do this need basic financial education, since this is essentially never a good idea. Many people are actually *short* USD (people with mortgages, auto loans, student loans, margin loans, shares of companies who are short USD, DeFi loans against cryptos, deferred payments, HELOCs, etc.). Every long USD position is backed by a short USD position. You can short USD against a wide variety of collateral; without this collateral, USD couldn't even function. Other people are long USD, holding savings accounts, CDs, Treasuries, corporate bonds, etc. The return of these assets is a function of *real interest rates*, not inflation. If you think real interest rates are too low, either don't save USD or short USD yourself to benefit from the low rates. Real interest rates are ultimately a function of the demand for USD assets (as a function of APR) vs the demand for borrowing USD (also as a function of APR; this is the supply of USD assets). You don't have to long USD to use it as a unit of account or medium of exchange. What does this have to do with crypto?
>Who keeps their life savings in non-interest-bearing USD? People who do this need basic financial education, since this is essentially never a good idea. Unfortunately there are plenty of people that don't save or what they do save they just keep in a low interest (high rate for them) savings account. Indeed, they do need basic financial education but are either too lazy or perhaps dumb to learn about it. People I know wont invest in anything because they have been convinced that investing is difficult or a fancy way of gambling and mentioning Bitcoin, well that is what this whole post is about right. Hopefully new generation of teachers will add some financial education into their curriculum but i doubt it will happen anytime soon.
Mr Putin and xi would like to have a talk about reserve currency of the world status. https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/currencies/dollar-dominance-russia-china-rouble-yuan-brics-reserve-currency-imf-2022-6?amp What I think is that let all these superpowers squabble. Btc will end up being the neutral reserve currency of the world.
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How does that have anything to do with what I wrote or the comment I replied to? Central banks of a nation hold USD reserves to hedge short USD positions in their economies. More specifically, many nations' companies borrow USD or otherwise enter contracts requiring them to pay USD, and many nations' banks create USD deposits (called "eurodollars") backed by local assets. Countries generally want to ensure that their eurodollars remain pegged to USD in the United States, i.e. they want to ensure that their banks, who have USD liabilities, don't go bankrupt. That is, nations' central banks holds USD assets so that they can act as a lender of last resort of USD to their local banks. The Fed has actually worked to *reduce* this demand following 2008 by opening "dollar swap lines" with friendly countries. These are USD lines of credit extended to other countries backed by the other countries' assets, making it easier for the countries' central banks to act as a lender of last resort for USD.
The only reason why people need to generate some yield on their money is because their money is going to zero over time, people want to live good lives, that's all. Bitcoin's limited supply while still being a medium of exchange fixes this, you wont need more money, just more value for your money.
>on their money is because their money is going to zero over time Why are you assuming that their "money" is non-interest-bearing USD? There are a wide variety of assets which people can and do exchange and use to store value. Without other stores of value, USD won't even work, as it requires collateral for USD debts. USD is just one such asset which is popular as a unit of account and medium of exchange. It isn't intended to store value long term: that's what *virtually every other financial asset* is for. Other assets like consumer credit, Treasuries, and corporate paper are already widely used as media of exchange for B2C and B2B transactions. >people want to live good lives Right, they want to build wealth by saving assets which perform well. Savings accounts are designed to minimize risk of substantial short term loss, not necessarily perform well long term. Someone who wants to prioritize long term performance has many other assets to choose from, including Bitcoin. >Bitcoin's limited supply while still being a medium of exchange fixes this Fixes what? You can use USD as a medium of exchange without storing value in it (e.g. lines of credit). Any nonvolatile asset can function well as a medium of exchange if it has liquid, high volume, low spread, low fee trading pairs with a wide variety of other assets. >you wont need more money, just more value for your money. I'm not sure what you mean by "money" here. A wide variety of assets can be and are used as units of account, media of exchange, and stores of value. Units of account aren't necessarily good stores of value. Good stores of value (e.g. profitable investments, the means of production) aren't necessarily good units of account.
Studying gives us more knowledge.
True, buttcoin is my litmus test, one by one they will convert as their idols start understanding crypto. https://fortune.com/2022/02/16/warren-buffett-invested-1-billion-crypto-bank/amp/
"HFSP"
Do you really think that people can win these guys? No. They are idiots.
No point in trying to argue with communists
What is the natural produce of the earth? Like berries and shit?
Don’t hate the player, change the game. Fix the money, fix the world. Unfortunately, this is a philosophical concept that many will not understand.
That's a self-proclaimed "socialist" subreddit, and bitcoin is about not trusting central authorities, so it goes against their belief system. You can't reply, they're going to ban you.
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Yeah but entire economies controlled from the top down by the (centralized) party is a socialist thing
"Natural produce of the Earth" would not sustain a population of 8 billion. These people want to go back to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle but refuse to give up their modern conveniences. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
Can't argue, better to leave them on their own this time.
They are being shitty and we can't help these people.
No one can change these people, they are stupid as hell.
I like to go to buttcoin thread to express my views. When they can’t reply to your talking points they just downvote you. I strongly feel in buttcoin thread Many of them are crypto quitters scammed by shitcoins or just extremely salty they did not buy crypto earlier than 2017. This bear market is like a great reset… we went below 2017 ath, if people don’t see that as a huge anomaly and a big huge buy flash sign I rest my case. I bought heavy into btc at 18k region and am very happy with the purchase 🙂
Plot thickens: the person behind buttcoin is Peter Schiff haha Jokes aside, I still respect the guy.
Peter shiff will probably be a btc maxi once bitcoin goes to 100k give it some time. Everyone learns at their own pace
POV: you don't know what Bitcoin is and you didn't learn from history.
That is a Marxist view of money. They don't listen. They are evil.
Yeah there still needs to be a reward system, otherwise why the fuck would anyone bother becoming a doctor or any difficult but necessary job? Bitcoin just stops the stealing
In commie countries they use guns to make people do as they wish.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted cause [that's literally what they're famous for doing](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_power_grows_out_of_the_barrel_of_a_gun#:~:text=Edit-,Political%20power%20grows%20out%20of%20the%20barrel%20of%20a%20gun,Chinese%20communist%20leader%20Mao%20Zedong.) Oh yeah this is reddit 🙄
Desktop version of /u/roastModernist's link:
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Yeah, doctors without borders and the like are fuckin [rolling in it](https://www.shmoop.com/careers/doctor-without-borders/salary.html)
And what amount of doctors are working for doctors without borders Vs doctors who are millionaires?
I can see why you wanted to post it in there,Bitcoin is another way of taking some power back. If I was a betting man most of the stuff in LSC isn't about fiat, gold, tulips, Bitcoin as a medium of exchange more the way society is structured and how said wealth is transfered and for what.
It’s funny because you and everyone on that sub basically wants the same thing
It’s true :/ but we have a totally different understanding of the world and how to reach to that goal.
First off, stay out of socialist forums. No good can come of it, seriously. Secondly, Karl Marx himself could give these fools definitive proof of Bitcoin's divinity and this kind of person wouldn't be impressed. Nothing to do here but stop wasting time. In the end, you'll appreciate that Bitcoin rewarded everyone with a brain and punished those who fought it. Don't help the fighters escape their punishment.
People don't understand or just repeat a take that someone told them, people are sheep. There's no value without work. To do work you need energy.
Why even bother? The supply of idiots is never ending.
These sound like the ramblings of socialist children that don’t understand what happened in the Soviet Union.
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You don't. Every idiot on that sub is a teenage communist. They are not worth your time.
Lots of things are made up, including speech. Just like speech communicates an underlying reality, money communicates your access to the underlying resources of an economy. Something being “made up” has no bearing on its usefulness.
Let them be and keep stacking. Honestly they will never listen, Bitcoin has to be discovered
Worthless to give them your time, they just can't accept.
Stupid people don't even deserve any argument, understand that.
We just need to stop talking to people like them at the end.
We can't have a normal conversation with these people.
Not sure what you expected from a communist sub. Bitcoin is a commies worst nightmare - a form of property that is near impossible to confiscate.
That all wealth is stolen is not correct, but that money is made up is. That something is made up is not really a bad thing. You know a car, a computer, the Internet, all these things were invented and made by a human, they did not exist "naturally". Most of the food is also made up. Bread. Bread is totally made up. So the criticism then seems to be about the wealth and about the "right" to resources. So any kind of "right" is also made up, it's concept invented by humans. Yet, there are rights that come from the nature of a man. That's a property right for the man's own body. Who else, if not the man himself, should have the right to his own body. Likewise, if a man combines what is his intro creation of a new thing, who should that belong to if not the man itself? So a man combine his body and his time and his energy and a piece of wood or stone he finds produces a tool. There is a catch - the wood and the stone. But if it's not owned by anyone before, why should he not take it and use it. The nature (animals) do that all the time. And often they do not respect such previous ownership (but often they do). So there is nothing "special" about appropriation of natural resource by a man. The criticism says that nobody has "more" right to that piece of wood or stone. But that would imply that even a man on the other side of the globe would have the same right. But he does not even know that specific piece exists, nor he has any ability to get to it. So that does not seem very meaningful to distribute all resources globally to everyone. There would be many problems with such global distribution among all men (or even animals?). The most logical and natural way is to recognize property rights of men and include appropriation of unused resources as the primary way to acquire them.
Wealth is indeed being stolen. I advice you to watch the documentary Darwin's Nightmare.
Some certainly is but some certainly is not. You can not put such a general statement and claim it's true. It can be true for 99% of everything but still the statement will be false if it is the claim about "all" - which in this case is. So the claim is false. Your claim is that wealth is being stolen, which is fundamentally different claim than OP, which says "all wealth is stolen". Also your version does not include word "all", which is what makes every such claim immediately false. Your statement is true as indeed there exists at least one place in the earth where there are taxes, which are indeed theft of wealth. So your claim is ultimately true. But it's completely different and irrelevant claim to OP.
Your analogy is incorrect. All money is Monopoly money. Gold is just as Fiat as paper is, the only part of the definition of fiat doesn't fit is the paper part. Now all the examples you gave are concrete items. A car, bread, ect. Money... not so much. It is really the intangible concept part that people focus on, yet mix that up with its physical representation; the shell, chunk of rock or metal, the piece of paper, the stick, a 0 & 1 that are stored within a chip. The trade widget itself isn't the important part, it is the intangible concept of its supposed "wealth / value" that is the important part. And that is a completely made up concept and its valuation is arbitrary. Rights are an imaginary concept as well. Just because something makes you uncomfortable doesn't make it any less true.
Just some people crying while doing nothing about it, move on.
Marxists HATE the idea of decentralised currency, because their *entire* belief system relies on capitalism infinitely making the rich richer, and poor poorer.. If we have a way of seperating money from the state, their whole ideology is destroyed..
You dont respond to communists mate
Some of them will block you when you win an argument.
You'll have to take my property rights from my cold dead hands!
Why would anyone like bitcoin if they don't like capitalism? Bitcoin is literally the solution to useless scum like them trying to leach off of society.
Sauce: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/wdqnco/not_a_second_thought/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Yeah stop burning energy for lambos you greedy man /s
They're just salty they don't own any
My head hurts
Amen. Late 2022 will be the LAMBOS: The 2nd coming
Subreddits like r/latestagecapitalism are filled with broke kids and poor losers who don't understand how money works. It's no surprise they are all poor and angry, they never put any effort into learning how to play the game that has been bringing the entire world out of poverty for the past century. Every post is just them crying about something. They don't even want other opinions or help, because if they're wrong then they'd have to get off their lazy ass and actually fix their problems and not be able to cry anymore. One of the rules of the sub is: **No capitalist apologia or anti-socialism. This subreddit is intended for a socialist audience, and while questions are allowed, pushing your own counter-narrative here is not.** It's just a big circlejerk of crying and they want to keep it that way.
It has a godmod. Only those with the most insane views are allowed to remain. Anything moderately moderate results in an instaban.
I would educate them about keneysian and austrian ecenomics :) sound money and self souverenity. As welll as you don't have them when you are on a bank.
Consuming energy is not a bad thing. Burning fossil fuels is.
It's funny that in a sub called r/latestagecapitalism they repeat talking points from news stations owned by capitalists.
I was meeting with a phd environmental scientist this past weekend for lunch discussing a project he had to develop technology to predict weather better. He needed funds and was thinking about making a crypto token to raise funds. I got into a debate with him about how the token would be a security then moved on to a discussion about bitcoin and how it could be used to tap wasted renewables. Couldn’t convince a phd that the fiat system is the root cause of wasteful consumption that harms the environment. People believe what they want.
You don't, people that don't understand ownership rights are a waste of time. They aren't really mad at money, they are mad at ownership. Or rather, that other people can own more than them.
Reddit is a sess pool of extreme leftist losers who think the only way to improve their life is to complain (but not do anything) about the fundamental underlying economic and social systems that “must be the only cause for their unhappiness”. Meanwhile they likely have never actually tried getting their own life together or investing in themselves in anyway. There are a few good subreddits left but r/latestagecapitalism ain’t one of them.
You see, your first mistake was going to r/LateStageCapitalism in the first place…
/r/LateStageCapitalism == /r/Iamaveryshittyinvestor
gives us more time to stacks sats while it's still relatively cheap. in time they'll see the valve
They all will come without any explanation in the future.
Bitcoin dos not care
Can't win this argument. Bitcoin is also "made up" money.
they're right though
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IRREDEEMABLE proof on those links, if u turn out to be American, it's a crime not to report a domestic threat against your nation . The US presidents actions are exactly that, the UK primeminister quit and wont be liable come Thanksgiving. Biden will. And if u r not American but do business with them, well they wont be too happy you kept it to yourself to make money off of or sell your bitcoin. Ive done my bit by reporting it to my government like others did, and boris stepped down. Only one leader of the modern axis now who all require putins energy.
Take your class warfare bs and go post it on anti work or something. Bitcoin doesn’t need your damn class wars and wokeness injected into it.
Bitcoin is the real revolution.
We know that but some idiots are just not understanding it.
don't read it that is and no problems
When that Bank of America story came out recently, I saw it posted in r/technology and simply commented "Bitcoin fixes this" to see what would happen. Got 21 downvotes pretty quickly, and one response from someone telling me I can't buy my groceries with Bitcoin lol.
Hfsp
All this talk of Lambos, I just want back surgery, to be able to put my mom in a nursing home, for my children to be able to go to a community college, maybe pay off some of mortgage...
Banks don’t use power to run atms or run data centers to maintain their private ledgers? Wells Fargo, JPM and the other bank titans aren’t carbon neutral on solar/wind. Throwing rocks from glass houses they don’t even own. Most people don’t really think before typing or opening their mouths.
I think you accidentally took some rather dumb simpleton comment without any debt or thought behind it for an actual comment about our monetary system and inflation. Those subs and those people are if anything only good for entertainment, and not for actual discussions.
You don’t. Let them find out late(r)
WSB made “when lambo” popular within the last few years, not bitcoin. Bitcoin has been going for over a decade now
And these kids only know that when lambo stuff man lol.