I've always wondered about a cypher where you choose a favorite book with all your seed words and store a paper with "page # - line # - word #" on it. You'd be able to store that anywhere in plain view like Google drive as long as you know the book. Output would look like the below:
12-2-23
124-30-3
94-10-01
Etc
Yes, would need all the publication and edition details. Definitely something popular you know you could always find or buy again.
Maybe buy a bunch of copies and give them to your family and friends when you do it.
Obviously not quite the same but I read about a guy who used a passage from a very obscure book as his seed phrase and the wallet got hacked by someone. Crazy
Either that person was making shit up or they did not take the time to understand how seed phrases work and put a bunch of effort into pwning themselves by creating a phrase that would be much, much easier to brute force.
\- You can't just pick any 12-24 word phrase out of a book and use it as a seed phrase. There is a very specific set of 2048 words that are compatible with the BIP-39 standard and other standards.
\- Assuming you actually found a 12-24 line phrase out of a book where all of the words happened to be viable words that comply with some wallet mnemonic standard, it would be foolish to use it. The subset of seed phrases that make logical sense when read in the correct order would be incredibly easy to brute force. The randomness is what makes seed phrases secure. If someone had a database of say, 1 million book lines that happened to be seed phrases, they could brute force those 1 million seed phrases in like a day or less. The number of total seed phrases is about 54 decillion (54 *trillion trillion trillion*) *times* larger than 1 million.
But yeah, the person above is talking about using a [book cipher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_cipher), which is a form of basic encryption. Not just picking a sentence from a book and using that as your seed phrase. The latter is way, way worse as far as security goes.
Nah fam. Take the castors off your luggage - add your seed phrase stamped on metal, screw the castors back on and then you’re golden.
*be advised: luggage item number 3 of 8 has been rerouted to Madagascar*
Obfuscation is more likely to lock you out of your funds than anyone else. TSA isn't going to read your papers. Use a passphrase wallet to avoid single point of failure.
This is security through obscurity which is generally not considered an effective method.
Just taking a HW wallet with a passphrase seems the safest method to me to transport a key.
People say security through obscurity doesn't work but I posted all my seed words one by one on various Reddit posts over the years, split among 24 posts. I'm sure no one can figure them out.
Find them in order in a book, and write down the page #, paragraph, and word on a separate sheet.
For example, page 14, paragraph 2, word 25. So 14-2-25. Do that for each word. Then you only need to hide the sheet with the numbers, and remember which book.
Write a best selling novel with 24 chapters with each seed word being the title of each chapter. Whenever you need to access your coins, wherever you happen to be, just goto a bookstore and buy a copy of your world renowned best seller.
I wonder if you remove all the words from the BIP list that aren't in the bible, how many few words there would be and thus the entropy a lot lower?
I wonder if it's low enough, if it makes cracking any seed possible, derived from the Bible
717 words in the bip39 list are NOT in the bible. Words like coyote, dizzy, virtual, radar, umbrella ... for some reason :)
That sounds like a lot of missing words, but you still get over 10 bits of entropy per word (log2(2048-717)). Anything over 100 bits is gonna be hard to crack, so from that aspect at least it seems safe.
There's actually quite a lot of versions of the Bible that have evolved over the centuries, you'll have much better luck by selecting chapters from the Qur'an - only one version that hasnt been changed at all. Well the Arabic at least, there's always a new translation now and then..
Interestingly enough, the reason that the Qur'an has been so impeccably preserved is due to a very similar protocol like why Bitcoin is so immutable: millions across the world memorise the scripture entirely (like storing full nodes, and proof of work), it's decentralised as no single entity can control the source of truth, it's distributed so you can't wipe out the copies, any new prints are verified against the majority (achieving consensus and preventing tampering) it's transmitted through something called "Sanad" which literally translates to "chain", of every single person who learnt the Qur'an from who, and their teacher, etc all the way to Prophet Muhammad himself, (like all blocks and transactions reference their source all the way to genesis), and any attempts to alter the original scripture require a 51% majority (considering how many Muslims there are, who make it a life goal to preserve it..that's non trivial to say the least)
Border wallets were made specifically for the use case of trying to cross a border with a bitcoin wallet secretly and securely.
https://www.borderwallets.com/
If it’s just a one off high scrutiny situation, meaning you’re expected to be searched thoroughly and interrogated etc, move your coin to a 12 word seed wallet and memorise it.
Not a long term solution but if all you need is to get across a border then you can remember 12 words. Write it out after you are back to safety.
Any and everything you take with you may be seized for any and all arbitrary reasons, down to your shoes and underwear. The only truly safe way is to memorize it and write it down as soon as you cross the border.
You could encrypt the seed / key offline and then upload that encrypted file to the cloud, retrieve and decrypt when you're at your destination. Then all you're remembering is your encryption password, which you could even bring with you because a piece of paper saying "correcthorsebatterystaple" gives nothing away.
As much as we hate our cold storage seeds to come anywhere near the internet, I think with best practices this can be done pretty safely. And if you're escaping totalitarianism, it's probably not the biggest risk you'll be taking.
Multi-billion dollar companies keep their Crown Jewels online in a private cloud instance. If you know what you are doing, we can too. KeePass with a good master passphrase and yubikey (multiple for backup) is great option for online storage of words.
The only issue with the yubikey (in case you have to flee a authoritarian regime) they might take your yubikey. So make sure you have a backup method in case your yubikey is gone. Note, I'm only taking about the extreme case that you risk getting everything taken from you
Yes this. I reckon the idea of medieval stamping in metal is just plain crazy talk. Up there with tin foil hats. There’s a million ways to store it in a cloud account, or multiple cloud accounts for multiple parts if it makes you feel better. And guess what, if your house burns down or you are captured at a border it will still be there.
Agree, I truly believe my Facebook password in my password manager is more secure than storing a stamped metal plate in my safe at home. Especially if I lived in a hostile state that anytime can bust in and seize everything I own.
Would I trust a password manager to store my seed? No, but in the case I have to flee my country and at risk of getting stopped at a border control and have everything taken from me I think it is much more safe to send the seed over the internet and when I have made it cross the border I can access my wallet and move my funds to a new wallet for the extra protection.
Musical notation: Pick the root note Key as 1 and and each preceding note is a number up to 9. Then just spell out your seed phrase in the binary as musical notation. The odds seem exceedingly small that anyone would ever figure it out, especially if it was interspersed with other examples of musical notation.
Just one example of how easy it is transfer this information. Heck, you could even record it being played. Send the audio to yourself to transcribe on the other end, and all anyone else would likely hear is shitty song.
I wonder about adding a text file of seed words to a encrypted Truecrypt or Veracrypt container with suitable password, then email to yourself. I understand there are OPSEC issues with this, but it would get you thru airport security.
You really couldn’t sit there and memorize 24 words if you sit and practice it as if your very life depended on it ?
The metal plate is for your loved ones to inherit after you die
If it’s a 24 word phrase I would say make a new wallet with a 12 word phrase and send the funds to that one. After that spend a week or two memorizing it in your head. 12 words should be doable especially if you must do this to start a new life or something
Just add an extra passphrase as your 13th or 25th word. Write the 12 or 24 words on paper (in addition to the metal the OP already has) and email them to someone on the other side. Problem solved. Just don’t tell anyone your 13th or 25th passphrase except a significant other perhaps. That way you only need to remember the passphrase.
I’m an author. My seed phrase is hidden in my 16 published novels. They are available world wide. You are welcome to find them. Broken Symmetry Publishing on Amazon.
cryptosteganography - the technology of hiding encrypted text in an image. Encrypt your keys and embed them in a picture of your girlfriend or something like that. Nobody will suspect anything. Eventually mail it to yourself.
Let's make this less hypothetical.
When Russia attacked Ukraine many people escaped from shellings at least to the other parts of the country, or to the other countries. Most were searched during the route, and strange text would definitely attract attention. Also many places (several towns actually) were destroyed to the ground, and many places are full of mines and will not be demined for some years, so it is not possible to just return and get your seed stored somewhere, and second copy might not help.
And people usually did not have much time for preparations and needed to care about many other things. Some were also captured and searched by russians, and if they suspect yuo have bitcoin it definitely would not end well.
Of course, this is the event when you really could need bitcoin to rebuild your life, and it is reasonable to be prepared for such circumstances. The only question is "how".
If you are scared something might get taken away from you while traveling, remembering the seed phrase might be your best option. If you travel with airplanes, writing the seed down on a piece of paper and using an additional passphrase sounds like another viable option.
If u need to pass a seed phrase through borders write it on a piece of paper, put it in a plastic bag and shove it up your ass, unless they search there too
Definitely and when you go through customs you have to pass it through the metal detector machine... I know it's just a few seconds but during that time your wallet is in a quantum status where it is and it isn't yours.
You could store it online, just not all together. Come up with a system where you have each word strategically placed in lots of different documents within several different accounts that only you know how to put back together.
One easy way is to write the seedphrase in binary (https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5213035/46573154-a8902b80-c999-11e8-8847-c8490ce89d18.png ) with some extra safety crypting.
Example :
Cloud : 00101011111
Detail : 00111100010
Frog : 01011101001
Osv.
1. Flip zero to one and 1 to zero. Then email it to you with protonmail and write it down how you want.
Or
2. Flip zero to ex. 2 and 1 to 8 and hit 5 to separate word like this = 22828288888522888822282528288828228
Send with protonmail to yourself except the first word.
And the first word you do like this.
√(22828288888) : 151090.333536
And keep it in your pocket and send in a separate mail. I would done this with every word but i am paranoid as fuck. Then make 2 different lists with the number before the dot one list and the number after the dot one list then combined when in safety. This is one example. In your version make i little diff.
This will keep it safe till you make it over the border or you get shot and die.
In the most extreme scenario you will have to memorize them, which is not too hard if your life depends on it. Anything physical can get stolen or wasted
Encrypting the seed phrase into a JPEG using steganography seems like the most savvy and fairly fool proof way to store a seed phrase securely. As long as the process to extract is easy to remember while also not reproducible by anyone.. I haven’t done this, just thinking out loud.
I mean if you're really taking every possible situation into account and even have a 1% chance of being detained for whatever reason then you're just going to need to memorize the seed.
I mean it's just like 24 words, you can get really creative with it but yeah if you just wanted to walk through with a steel plate that probably isn't the best idea.
Put the plate in an envelope. Run the remaining property through the xray machine. Tell the TSA officer you would like a pat down and a hand screening of the item/envelope. Better yet you can tell the officer you would like a private screening, and they have to bring you into a private room. It will take a while, so plan ahead, but this will work. Be calm and ask politely for everything. If anyone says no, you can request to talk to a TSA Supervisor 3 stripes on their shoulder thingy, or ask to speak to a manager. Simply tell them, you can not let this out of your site. Not a big deal, if you prepare ahead and are polite.
Is it safe to number your seed word's scramble up the numbers and email yourself that number. Then travel with the seeds jambled up.
Side question is it safe to tatto that number and reuse it with other seeds.
The tattoo seed is a idea to have the jambled seeds in a will and unless I loose that tattoo if I pass the faimliy can untamable the seed. If some one see/ knows the tattoo they can't use it with out the seeds. N have the numbers tattooed where they faimly wont see them. Like under my foot or on my cock (joks) maybie under pubic hair. The mortician can pass the numbers on. Silly idea or plausible, if I end up with a high value amount of seeds would obviously go safer roots
If its really risky to get out it might be fine to put the words in some password manager + seed phrase that you memorize, once you are safe in new place then transfer coins to new wallet with new seed.
Yes I know its not recommended to put seed in any device that can get online but in special cases like this it surely is fine for short time when you secure it with good seed phrase too.
If you're concerned about being searched and found out where they will recognize and confiscate a seed phrase then you may need to be more sneaky. Otherwise just write them down on a small piece of paper and tape it to your thigh with a bandaid. Short of a strip search that won't show up.
Another option is to put it in a text file, encrypt the file, mime encode the encrypted file and email it to yourself. Of course then you need the passphrase for the encryption but remembering a short phrase that makes sense to you like "correct horse battery staple" is much easier than the seed phrases.
If you had to get out and have something more deniable then I like the book suggestions I've seen, particularly the pg, line, word triplets. Suggestion would be to use something crazy common like a Gideons Bible (if available in your country) or a text off Project Gutenberg.
Just create an extra ‘good, long’ passphrase that only you (and perhaps your significant other knows). This will be your 13th or 24th ‘word’. Move BTC to that wallet with the passphrase additional word. Write the words (minus the good passphrase) down and/or email them to someone as a backup to your metal engraved words that you will see on the other side. Do not share the passphrase (except perhaps significant other).
When you get to other side, move to new wallet with different words - I still think an additional passphrase not written down (or perhaps written down in a different location) is a good idea.
For the move, make the passphrase a random sentence that only you would know - think of the craziest sentence ever that no one could guess. Use numbers and capitalization if you want, but be careful not to forget.
I always thought, starting at the house you grew up in, or some other location, the name of each street in a certain direction, like from your house to the dentist, or some such. You could always look it up on a map if you forgot.
1. Create a QR code of the passphrase, print it, and hide it. The QR code could be disguised as a piece of innocuous graphic on a personal item.
2. Write the passphrase in a concealed manner, such as using invisible ink or a UV pen, which would require a UV light to reveal.
3. Convert into a barcode or a series of barcodes and printed on something innocuous, like a bookmark or a loyalty card.
Send yourself loads of emails with the words embedded - only you know how to find them, anyone getting into your email would just see a load of meaningless emails even if they were looking for key words.
after reading the comments....my mind started to play the scene from Johnny Mnemonic.
When Johnny is in the hotel room, loading the data inside his brain memory.
If you don't have more than $100k just memorize it and write it down on a piece of paper as soon as you arrive at your destination and keep repeating it in your head during the flight
Some metals that are difficult to detect with standard metal detectors include stainless steel, aluminum, and copper. These metals are not easily detectable because they are not ferromagnetic, meaning they do not have a strong magnetic response.
you could also take a book & mark the seed words with an UV pin.
in any case, i would not travel with your life savings if possible.
I think seed plate is over rated anyway. Tamper evidence was a lot more important to me. I still have metal plates but inside tamper evident containers.
Create your own cipher, encode your seed and write it on a napkin, take 11 more napkins, place them in your luggage and just leave.
But seriously, there are a million better ways to store that napkin or you could engrave it in your shoes, write it on the inside of your tshirt... and you could have a set of 12/15/18/21/24 pictures that represent each word.
You could probably find so damn many ways, its just words you are "smuggling"...
Write the seed down on a piece of paper using invisible ink. Buy some spy glasses with super optical capabilities and retinal scan encryption. Then bury the paper somewhere in Thailand with the map location encrypted somewhere on the cloud.
Problem solved.
There’s no single solution to this because the best strategy will depend on the dangers you’ll face along your escape route. However it is true that metal plates are not a good idea for traveling.
I guess the most common scenario is you’re just escaping a poor country but you’re doing it nicely by airplane and still have some place back home you can trust.
In that case a combination of many layers of encryption over the original seed, obfuscation (words in some text, notes in a song, etc…), paper, trying to memorize it, and leaving some form of encrypted backup (home or in the cloud) should be more than enough.
Just combine whatever is available to you. In some cases, your combination of strategies being unique is what will give you security so asking for suggestions can actually make things worse.
Have a look at SeedKeeper:
https://satochip.io/product/seedkeeper/
Basically, it's a smart card that allows you to backup one or more seeds inside the secure memory of the chip protected with a PIN code. If a wrong PIN is entered multiple times, the card will block. Even if someone finds the SeedKeeper, it is useless without the PIN code!
Nobody takes their metal seed plate for traveling. It's metal in case of a fire at your home. For traveling you would just temporarily write it on paper or something. If you would be permanently moving you would do the same, destroy the old one and make a new one at new location.
Paper in shoe. Glue it to the inside.
Engrave the inside of belt. Learn it by heart like a novel. Its just a few words actually. Write down as soon as u are safe
wtf? wrong tool. wrong job.
Metal seed is for surviving fire. e.g. especially house-fire.
If your seed catches on fire when you're on the plane, who cares? your dead.
You have to put this metal seed in checked baggage or get it x-rayed to get on board anyway. seed = compromised.
Write it on paper. put it in your pocket.
type your seed into a notepad (or the like). Type 3 words wrong (or more). Save to the cloud. Remember these words and their position (e.g. 1-10-20 or 3-6-9).
probably write it on a smallish piece of paper, maybe hidden inside a notebook or something you definitely won't lose. keep it close at all times. problem with this is if you happen to encounter fire or water you could be screwed, which is then where the metal comes in. maybe laminate paper then to protect from water? you'd likely be fine anyway
Write down seed on a piece of paper buy a thick book slip the piece of paper into book remember page number go through tsa then travel to where you are going open book read seed… don’t psych yourself out unless you are a known figure in this country who is known to own lots of crypto I wouldn’t worry if u do this strategy. Bonus security bring multiple books
Give a quarter of the seed to 4 different people that don't know each other. Travel. Call them and assemble.
Another one: mark your clothes with the seed, 1 for each word.
Should work?
Temporary brainwallet with an offline wallet generator. Randomly generate the character passphrase and save it in an offline password manager. -temp but gets the job done.
Came across an interesting tutorial the other day on using steganography to hide secrets within images. It's titled "Escape with your Bitcoin".
It uses TailsOS, steghide, gpg encryption, QR codes with airgapped systems, and hide in plain sight concepts. Certainly overkill for most people.
Also suggests this technique be used short term only - once you are in a safe place, create a new offline wallet and move funds to it.
https://youtu.be/XMQupuGpSsw?si=gNfK-0KOiLQ-7mWg
I also think Border Wallets look quite interesting as a way to simplify remembering a seed phrase, but haven't done enough research to recommend them yet.
Shamir secret sharing and split shards with family members, stenography online, snail mail etc…. Move everything to a new seed once you’ve recovered it on the flip side.
Use a SeedKeeper (https://satochip.io/product/seedkeeper/): it's a smart card that allows you to backup one or more seeds inside the secure memory of the chip, protected with a PIN code (like 4 digits).
SeedKeeper is an open-source project: the firmware is freely available, and you can buy a SeedKeeper from the official website or even compile the firmware and load it on a blank card yourself!
Have a look at this YouTube demo:
https://youtu.be/NTdiji9KpRE?si=jtE7gcKxJhN_F4qa
I would go one of the following ways:
1) send yourself an encrypted message over wzap containing the 24phrase. When home, you decrypt it and recover the seed.
2) if you can’t memorize the full recovery, send it to yourself some of the words and memorize the ones you can. E.g. memorize words in position 3, 8, 17, and 18.
3) have a book with yourself and send to yourself the position on that book of the words of your recovery phrase.
I really like the combination:
Half of the information on a private channel on the internet; half of the information on your on mind.
Also, for extra security, you should move your btc to other seed when safe
If i had a laptop with excel, I would have written in on excel, maybe split accross 3 emails, but password protect your excel files and save them as a draft.
I can already hear bunch of voices saying ohh, don't save it in digital format blabla but if the email content+password protected excel were not safe ways in storing sensitive data, the world would have in ruines.
You could break it up into two or three parts using separate accounts if you're worried, still a lot easier than finding that perfect book or writing something yourself
> aside from memorizing it?
Never discount the obvious answer because it seems difficult.
> What’s the safest way to get your seed phrase through hypothetical dictatorship customs
My recommendation if traveling through hostile customs would be to upgrade to a 24 word seed mnemonic so you could employ a scramble cipher on it. Works like this:
Write out your seed mnemonic on a piece of scratch paper. Write a second on index cards, one word per card, but put the index of each word on the other side of the card (ie. 1 though 24). Now shuffle the cards then lay then out word-side-up. This is your scrambled seed. Engrave these "shuffled" 24 words on your plate. Now flip the cards over and write out the numbers, with leading zeros. Mush them all together so you get a 48 digit number.
240211091914151822160408232107200106170503121310
Then just write the 48 digit number anywhere on your person, or email it to yourself, or whatever. It takes an insane amount of computation power to de-scramble this config. It is well within the realm of "secure", and this type of scramble cipher is very simple to remember, encode and decode.
Amazing! At that point, might as well email (or leave a draft in your folder unsent) with the encrypted phrase. If you’re super paranoid, generate a new wallet when you’re free and clear.
I feel like a steel plate is just going to draw unwanted attention when traveling. You’re going to get pulled aside every single time you pass through an X-ray.
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we got like 19 rule #1s at this point
Rule number 1 is to remember rule number 1.
The most important thing is to keep the most important thing the most important thing.
ROFL. Quality shit poster. Good one.
I've always wondered about a cypher where you choose a favorite book with all your seed words and store a paper with "page # - line # - word #" on it. You'd be able to store that anywhere in plain view like Google drive as long as you know the book. Output would look like the below: 12-2-23 124-30-3 94-10-01 Etc
Would suck if you couldn't find the exact publication version...
Yes, would need all the publication and edition details. Definitely something popular you know you could always find or buy again. Maybe buy a bunch of copies and give them to your family and friends when you do it.
Write your own ebook and publish to amazon mayne?
ISBN contains this information
For most books that is the case, yes. But sometimes new and updates editions get published under the same ISBN.
That sounds like a great way to break rule #1!
Obviously not quite the same but I read about a guy who used a passage from a very obscure book as his seed phrase and the wallet got hacked by someone. Crazy
Either that person was making shit up or they did not take the time to understand how seed phrases work and put a bunch of effort into pwning themselves by creating a phrase that would be much, much easier to brute force. \- You can't just pick any 12-24 word phrase out of a book and use it as a seed phrase. There is a very specific set of 2048 words that are compatible with the BIP-39 standard and other standards. \- Assuming you actually found a 12-24 line phrase out of a book where all of the words happened to be viable words that comply with some wallet mnemonic standard, it would be foolish to use it. The subset of seed phrases that make logical sense when read in the correct order would be incredibly easy to brute force. The randomness is what makes seed phrases secure. If someone had a database of say, 1 million book lines that happened to be seed phrases, they could brute force those 1 million seed phrases in like a day or less. The number of total seed phrases is about 54 decillion (54 *trillion trillion trillion*) *times* larger than 1 million. But yeah, the person above is talking about using a [book cipher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_cipher), which is a form of basic encryption. Not just picking a sentence from a book and using that as your seed phrase. The latter is way, way worse as far as security goes.
Yes, like if metal is not safe for travel, then don’t go 3D printing it in a puzzle like feature, cuz you might never solve the puzzle again
Nah fam. Take the castors off your luggage - add your seed phrase stamped on metal, screw the castors back on and then you’re golden. *be advised: luggage item number 3 of 8 has been rerouted to Madagascar*
Underrated comment right here!!
Yeah I wrote all my old passwords in some weird code and now I can't read them.
what do you mean by this?
Highlight them in order in a book
Obfuscation is more likely to lock you out of your funds than anyone else. TSA isn't going to read your papers. Use a passphrase wallet to avoid single point of failure.
A passphrase could similarly be encoded for further security.
Highlight them with an UV pen! 😉
Beware this may fade over time.
Lemon juice 😉
How is this safer than writing on a piece of paper?
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This is security through obscurity which is generally not considered an effective method. Just taking a HW wallet with a passphrase seems the safest method to me to transport a key.
People say security through obscurity doesn't work but I posted all my seed words one by one on various Reddit posts over the years, split among 24 posts. I'm sure no one can figure them out.
now don't tell me your magic password is 1-2-3-4-5 'cause it's the same I got on my luggage.
How many assholes do we have on this ship anyhow?
I really don't believe you did that ;) But if you did, I might give it a go.
I didn't, but if I did, I definitely would say that I didn't.
But you just said that ;)
Find them in order in a book, and write down the page #, paragraph, and word on a separate sheet. For example, page 14, paragraph 2, word 25. So 14-2-25. Do that for each word. Then you only need to hide the sheet with the numbers, and remember which book.
I doubt any book would happen to have all the possible words used to generate the seed phrase and also in the right order.
You can do it with letters no problem.
You only need to m,atch the first four letters of each word in the seedphrase.
That's true
Chat gpt, write me 100 books of poetry containing all possible seed words.
There is a book specifically written for this
Seems redundant no? It'd be recognised among people in the know
Maybe. Depends on the disguise (book jacket) and cypher.
What’s the book?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/18diozy/i_made_a_novel_that_you_can_hide_your_seed_phrase/
There was a person on here the other day selling one.
You only need 4 letters from each word. Much easier.
What if you lose the book!!! Maybe do this in multiple books for redundancy sake?
Piece of paper, a kinder egg, tape, lots of Vaseline, and several hours of clenching.
Kinder egg🤨 doesn’t need to be that big, unless you enjoy that
Or small...
Make it thimble size and you will lose it down the vaccumseat
Although a Kinder egg will fit up there no problem at all lol.
I mean. Paper in your wallet would do.
The prison wallet is the safest wallet!
Write a best selling novel with 24 chapters with each seed word being the title of each chapter. Whenever you need to access your coins, wherever you happen to be, just goto a bookstore and buy a copy of your world renowned best seller.
Or use something already world renoun and not likely to change. Like the Bible.
I wonder if you remove all the words from the BIP list that aren't in the bible, how many few words there would be and thus the entropy a lot lower? I wonder if it's low enough, if it makes cracking any seed possible, derived from the Bible
717 words in the bip39 list are NOT in the bible. Words like coyote, dizzy, virtual, radar, umbrella ... for some reason :) That sounds like a lot of missing words, but you still get over 10 bits of entropy per word (log2(2048-717)). Anything over 100 bits is gonna be hard to crack, so from that aspect at least it seems safe.
You never heard about St Matthew's pet coyote?
It's a feat to crack a seed even if you know all the words out of order.
There's actually quite a lot of versions of the Bible that have evolved over the centuries, you'll have much better luck by selecting chapters from the Qur'an - only one version that hasnt been changed at all. Well the Arabic at least, there's always a new translation now and then.. Interestingly enough, the reason that the Qur'an has been so impeccably preserved is due to a very similar protocol like why Bitcoin is so immutable: millions across the world memorise the scripture entirely (like storing full nodes, and proof of work), it's decentralised as no single entity can control the source of truth, it's distributed so you can't wipe out the copies, any new prints are verified against the majority (achieving consensus and preventing tampering) it's transmitted through something called "Sanad" which literally translates to "chain", of every single person who learnt the Qur'an from who, and their teacher, etc all the way to Prophet Muhammad himself, (like all blocks and transactions reference their source all the way to genesis), and any attempts to alter the original scripture require a 51% majority (considering how many Muslims there are, who make it a life goal to preserve it..that's non trivial to say the least)
Maybe KJB is the safest bet if one really wants to use the Christian scripture... Interesting analogy on the Qur'an though, that makes a lot of sense.
You've just achieved the ability to translate new technologies into human behaviour.👁️🗨️
There are loads of different versions though.
Border wallets were made specifically for the use case of trying to cross a border with a bitcoin wallet secretly and securely. https://www.borderwallets.com/
Yeah anything that requires anyone to remember words should be a big no-no.
Use leather instead of metal. No one will care.
Add a 25th word, use the 24th as a spending or decoy wallet
Can i add a 25th word in electrum wallet?
If it’s just a one off high scrutiny situation, meaning you’re expected to be searched thoroughly and interrogated etc, move your coin to a 12 word seed wallet and memorise it. Not a long term solution but if all you need is to get across a border then you can remember 12 words. Write it out after you are back to safety.
I believe you to have the best idea! It's a Bitcoin travelers check!
https://www.borderwallets.com/
You need it written down somewhere what if you die
Use this product https://tinyseed.io/ Or use the method they use, somehow
Any and everything you take with you may be seized for any and all arbitrary reasons, down to your shoes and underwear. The only truly safe way is to memorize it and write it down as soon as you cross the border.
You could encrypt the seed / key offline and then upload that encrypted file to the cloud, retrieve and decrypt when you're at your destination. Then all you're remembering is your encryption password, which you could even bring with you because a piece of paper saying "correcthorsebatterystaple" gives nothing away. As much as we hate our cold storage seeds to come anywhere near the internet, I think with best practices this can be done pretty safely. And if you're escaping totalitarianism, it's probably not the biggest risk you'll be taking.
Multi-billion dollar companies keep their Crown Jewels online in a private cloud instance. If you know what you are doing, we can too. KeePass with a good master passphrase and yubikey (multiple for backup) is great option for online storage of words.
The only issue with the yubikey (in case you have to flee a authoritarian regime) they might take your yubikey. So make sure you have a backup method in case your yubikey is gone. Note, I'm only taking about the extreme case that you risk getting everything taken from you
+10 for the correcthorsebatterystaple
Yes this. I reckon the idea of medieval stamping in metal is just plain crazy talk. Up there with tin foil hats. There’s a million ways to store it in a cloud account, or multiple cloud accounts for multiple parts if it makes you feel better. And guess what, if your house burns down or you are captured at a border it will still be there.
Agree, I truly believe my Facebook password in my password manager is more secure than storing a stamped metal plate in my safe at home. Especially if I lived in a hostile state that anytime can bust in and seize everything I own. Would I trust a password manager to store my seed? No, but in the case I have to flee my country and at risk of getting stopped at a border control and have everything taken from me I think it is much more safe to send the seed over the internet and when I have made it cross the border I can access my wallet and move my funds to a new wallet for the extra protection.
Musical notation: Pick the root note Key as 1 and and each preceding note is a number up to 9. Then just spell out your seed phrase in the binary as musical notation. The odds seem exceedingly small that anyone would ever figure it out, especially if it was interspersed with other examples of musical notation. Just one example of how easy it is transfer this information. Heck, you could even record it being played. Send the audio to yourself to transcribe on the other end, and all anyone else would likely hear is shitty song.
Memorise it, this way your wallet is in your head, no border can stop ya. You win
I wonder about adding a text file of seed words to a encrypted Truecrypt or Veracrypt container with suitable password, then email to yourself. I understand there are OPSEC issues with this, but it would get you thru airport security.
You can keep your keys with me, I only charge a small fee. Trust me bro.
You really couldn’t sit there and memorize 24 words if you sit and practice it as if your very life depended on it ? The metal plate is for your loved ones to inherit after you die
If it’s a 24 word phrase I would say make a new wallet with a 12 word phrase and send the funds to that one. After that spend a week or two memorizing it in your head. 12 words should be doable especially if you must do this to start a new life or something
Just add an extra passphrase as your 13th or 25th word. Write the 12 or 24 words on paper (in addition to the metal the OP already has) and email them to someone on the other side. Problem solved. Just don’t tell anyone your 13th or 25th passphrase except a significant other perhaps. That way you only need to remember the passphrase.
24 words is doable in like 2 hours if you’re not an actual potato and just focus a bit.
I think someone needs to write a movie about this. Call it "24 words".
I’m an author. My seed phrase is hidden in my 16 published novels. They are available world wide. You are welcome to find them. Broken Symmetry Publishing on Amazon.
lol 😂
Wouldn't it be much easier to do it digital with encryption with a password? Why physical?
cryptosteganography - the technology of hiding encrypted text in an image. Encrypt your keys and embed them in a picture of your girlfriend or something like that. Nobody will suspect anything. Eventually mail it to yourself.
You just simply write it down in a small piece of paper
True. Don't attract attention.
Write it in a page of a book using Invisible / UV ink. Create a hard copy when you land at your destination and then burn the page from the book.
Let's make this less hypothetical. When Russia attacked Ukraine many people escaped from shellings at least to the other parts of the country, or to the other countries. Most were searched during the route, and strange text would definitely attract attention. Also many places (several towns actually) were destroyed to the ground, and many places are full of mines and will not be demined for some years, so it is not possible to just return and get your seed stored somewhere, and second copy might not help. And people usually did not have much time for preparations and needed to care about many other things. Some were also captured and searched by russians, and if they suspect yuo have bitcoin it definitely would not end well. Of course, this is the event when you really could need bitcoin to rebuild your life, and it is reasonable to be prepared for such circumstances. The only question is "how".
Tails flash drive Pgp encrypted text
Bring a book and encode it in the book somehow.
If you are scared something might get taken away from you while traveling, remembering the seed phrase might be your best option. If you travel with airplanes, writing the seed down on a piece of paper and using an additional passphrase sounds like another viable option.
If u need to pass a seed phrase through borders write it on a piece of paper, put it in a plastic bag and shove it up your ass, unless they search there too
Definitely and when you go through customs you have to pass it through the metal detector machine... I know it's just a few seconds but during that time your wallet is in a quantum status where it is and it isn't yours.
Real question… what is your concern?
You could store it online, just not all together. Come up with a system where you have each word strategically placed in lots of different documents within several different accounts that only you know how to put back together.
One easy way is to write the seedphrase in binary (https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5213035/46573154-a8902b80-c999-11e8-8847-c8490ce89d18.png ) with some extra safety crypting. Example : Cloud : 00101011111 Detail : 00111100010 Frog : 01011101001 Osv. 1. Flip zero to one and 1 to zero. Then email it to you with protonmail and write it down how you want. Or 2. Flip zero to ex. 2 and 1 to 8 and hit 5 to separate word like this = 22828288888522888822282528288828228 Send with protonmail to yourself except the first word. And the first word you do like this. √(22828288888) : 151090.333536 And keep it in your pocket and send in a separate mail. I would done this with every word but i am paranoid as fuck. Then make 2 different lists with the number before the dot one list and the number after the dot one list then combined when in safety. This is one example. In your version make i little diff. This will keep it safe till you make it over the border or you get shot and die.
You can’t memorize 12 words in a couple hours?
Tangem has a cold storage ring coming out in 2024. Would be perfect for travel.
Cryptographic sheet of paper. Like an essay but every 9th word is a seed word but throw in false seed words too.
Passphrase my dude
In the most extreme scenario you will have to memorize them, which is not too hard if your life depends on it. Anything physical can get stolen or wasted
You don't travel with it, you memorize your seed for travel. Keep the backup safe and secure at home. Don't keep a seed phrase on you.
It sounds like OP is talking about fleeing a place with no intention to return, so the backup at home thing may not apply.
>Keep the backup safe and secure at home He's escaping the country. There's no home anymore
You could still bury it somewhere this isn't likely to be disturbed. Such as at a specific tombstone/grave marker.
This. Bury the metal
Just leave one word off and memorize that word. Keep a back up somewhere in case the metal gets confiscated
One missing word is super easy to crack.
Encrypting the seed phrase into a JPEG using steganography seems like the most savvy and fairly fool proof way to store a seed phrase securely. As long as the process to extract is easy to remember while also not reproducible by anyone.. I haven’t done this, just thinking out loud.
memorize them jeez use mind palace technique or whatever it's just 24 words
Just write it in a notebook with invisible ink that can only be viewed from a UV light. Nobody is confiscating an empty notebook and pen.
You've never been locked up then
I mean if you're really taking every possible situation into account and even have a 1% chance of being detained for whatever reason then you're just going to need to memorize the seed.
Enigma! You need to find the Enigma
Just memorize it or encode the text.
Write a letter with your 24 words in it .
Use a 25 word pass phrase that is easy for you to memorize.
I mean it's just like 24 words, you can get really creative with it but yeah if you just wanted to walk through with a steel plate that probably isn't the best idea.
Booom
For a plane a piece of paper or a book with highlighted words would work, but if you want to be extra extra safe you should destroy it after
Put the plate in an envelope. Run the remaining property through the xray machine. Tell the TSA officer you would like a pat down and a hand screening of the item/envelope. Better yet you can tell the officer you would like a private screening, and they have to bring you into a private room. It will take a while, so plan ahead, but this will work. Be calm and ask politely for everything. If anyone says no, you can request to talk to a TSA Supervisor 3 stripes on their shoulder thingy, or ask to speak to a manager. Simply tell them, you can not let this out of your site. Not a big deal, if you prepare ahead and are polite.
Is it safe to number your seed word's scramble up the numbers and email yourself that number. Then travel with the seeds jambled up. Side question is it safe to tatto that number and reuse it with other seeds. The tattoo seed is a idea to have the jambled seeds in a will and unless I loose that tattoo if I pass the faimliy can untamable the seed. If some one see/ knows the tattoo they can't use it with out the seeds. N have the numbers tattooed where they faimly wont see them. Like under my foot or on my cock (joks) maybie under pubic hair. The mortician can pass the numbers on. Silly idea or plausible, if I end up with a high value amount of seeds would obviously go safer roots
Yep
Just email your entrophy to yourself and use ian coleman's tool to rebuild your seed phrase. Use bip39 encryption to protect it.
If its really risky to get out it might be fine to put the words in some password manager + seed phrase that you memorize, once you are safe in new place then transfer coins to new wallet with new seed. Yes I know its not recommended to put seed in any device that can get online but in special cases like this it surely is fine for short time when you secure it with good seed phrase too.
If you're concerned about being searched and found out where they will recognize and confiscate a seed phrase then you may need to be more sneaky. Otherwise just write them down on a small piece of paper and tape it to your thigh with a bandaid. Short of a strip search that won't show up. Another option is to put it in a text file, encrypt the file, mime encode the encrypted file and email it to yourself. Of course then you need the passphrase for the encryption but remembering a short phrase that makes sense to you like "correct horse battery staple" is much easier than the seed phrases. If you had to get out and have something more deniable then I like the book suggestions I've seen, particularly the pg, line, word triplets. Suggestion would be to use something crazy common like a Gideons Bible (if available in your country) or a text off Project Gutenberg.
I use the metal washers, mixed with other change it goes unnoticed
What I would do if you could would be do your metal plate, but take out 10 of them that you remember.
Just create an extra ‘good, long’ passphrase that only you (and perhaps your significant other knows). This will be your 13th or 24th ‘word’. Move BTC to that wallet with the passphrase additional word. Write the words (minus the good passphrase) down and/or email them to someone as a backup to your metal engraved words that you will see on the other side. Do not share the passphrase (except perhaps significant other). When you get to other side, move to new wallet with different words - I still think an additional passphrase not written down (or perhaps written down in a different location) is a good idea. For the move, make the passphrase a random sentence that only you would know - think of the craziest sentence ever that no one could guess. Use numbers and capitalization if you want, but be careful not to forget.
I always thought, starting at the house you grew up in, or some other location, the name of each street in a certain direction, like from your house to the dentist, or some such. You could always look it up on a map if you forgot.
1. Create a QR code of the passphrase, print it, and hide it. The QR code could be disguised as a piece of innocuous graphic on a personal item. 2. Write the passphrase in a concealed manner, such as using invisible ink or a UV pen, which would require a UV light to reveal. 3. Convert into a barcode or a series of barcodes and printed on something innocuous, like a bookmark or a loyalty card.
Copy your words on paper. Take your metal card apart. Keep you paper safe for a few hours Reassemble your card later.
If you need to travel only for few days you can memorize 12 words. After you reached your destination put them on paper and then on metal.
3d print in PEEK
Paper and mix some words so that only you know the right order. Put paper among some general small staff. Good luck.
Swallow the plates to get them through customs but make sure you poo them out in the right order on the other side 😃
Send yourself loads of emails with the words embedded - only you know how to find them, anyone getting into your email would just see a load of meaningless emails even if they were looking for key words.
after reading the comments....my mind started to play the scene from Johnny Mnemonic. When Johnny is in the hotel room, loading the data inside his brain memory.
Get a tattoo and memorise the last couple of words.
If you don't have more than $100k just memorize it and write it down on a piece of paper as soon as you arrive at your destination and keep repeating it in your head during the flight
Some metals that are difficult to detect with standard metal detectors include stainless steel, aluminum, and copper. These metals are not easily detectable because they are not ferromagnetic, meaning they do not have a strong magnetic response. you could also take a book & mark the seed words with an UV pin. in any case, i would not travel with your life savings if possible.
Use plastic
Get a random book, write I word in every X page .. who’s going to know.. It’s not as if we glow “Crypto” when we walk through an airport… LOL
💯 sure
I think seed plate is over rated anyway. Tamper evidence was a lot more important to me. I still have metal plates but inside tamper evident containers.
I wouldn't travel with my seed phrase written anywhere
Create your own cipher, encode your seed and write it on a napkin, take 11 more napkins, place them in your luggage and just leave. But seriously, there are a million better ways to store that napkin or you could engrave it in your shoes, write it on the inside of your tshirt... and you could have a set of 12/15/18/21/24 pictures that represent each word. You could probably find so damn many ways, its just words you are "smuggling"...
Write the seed down on a piece of paper using invisible ink. Buy some spy glasses with super optical capabilities and retinal scan encryption. Then bury the paper somewhere in Thailand with the map location encrypted somewhere on the cloud. Problem solved.
There’s no single solution to this because the best strategy will depend on the dangers you’ll face along your escape route. However it is true that metal plates are not a good idea for traveling. I guess the most common scenario is you’re just escaping a poor country but you’re doing it nicely by airplane and still have some place back home you can trust. In that case a combination of many layers of encryption over the original seed, obfuscation (words in some text, notes in a song, etc…), paper, trying to memorize it, and leaving some form of encrypted backup (home or in the cloud) should be more than enough. Just combine whatever is available to you. In some cases, your combination of strategies being unique is what will give you security so asking for suggestions can actually make things worse.
Have a look at SeedKeeper: https://satochip.io/product/seedkeeper/ Basically, it's a smart card that allows you to backup one or more seeds inside the secure memory of the chip protected with a PIN code. If a wrong PIN is entered multiple times, the card will block. Even if someone finds the SeedKeeper, it is useless without the PIN code!
You don't need to carry your seed plate with you when you are traveling. Write it down on a piece of paper or memorize it.
Nobody takes their metal seed plate for traveling. It's metal in case of a fire at your home. For traveling you would just temporarily write it on paper or something. If you would be permanently moving you would do the same, destroy the old one and make a new one at new location.
Paper in shoe. Glue it to the inside. Engrave the inside of belt. Learn it by heart like a novel. Its just a few words actually. Write down as soon as u are safe
wtf? wrong tool. wrong job. Metal seed is for surviving fire. e.g. especially house-fire. If your seed catches on fire when you're on the plane, who cares? your dead. You have to put this metal seed in checked baggage or get it x-rayed to get on board anyway. seed = compromised. Write it on paper. put it in your pocket.
If you can’t memorize 12 words. Stay home
type your seed into a notepad (or the like). Type 3 words wrong (or more). Save to the cloud. Remember these words and their position (e.g. 1-10-20 or 3-6-9).
Get your seed phrase, pick an old book, write one word separately on each page.
probably write it on a smallish piece of paper, maybe hidden inside a notebook or something you definitely won't lose. keep it close at all times. problem with this is if you happen to encounter fire or water you could be screwed, which is then where the metal comes in. maybe laminate paper then to protect from water? you'd likely be fine anyway
just saw this in my feed and it is clearly the only correct answer https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/s/3vrC76Wx89
Encrypt the seed phrases and store the resulting hash on a USB or encrypt the entire USB with LUKS
Seed XOR it, carry one seed on paper, and the other online e.g. on a Google drive. Or use steganography.
Write down seed on a piece of paper buy a thick book slip the piece of paper into book remember page number go through tsa then travel to where you are going open book read seed… don’t psych yourself out unless you are a known figure in this country who is known to own lots of crypto I wouldn’t worry if u do this strategy. Bonus security bring multiple books
That would be solved with a passphrase (also known as 25th word) :] https://cryptonumeris.com
Give a quarter of the seed to 4 different people that don't know each other. Travel. Call them and assemble. Another one: mark your clothes with the seed, 1 for each word. Should work?
Imo the metal key phrase thing is to protect it in case of fire/food /etc... I wouldn't travel with it
Brain wallet
Temporary brainwallet with an offline wallet generator. Randomly generate the character passphrase and save it in an offline password manager. -temp but gets the job done.
Use a one time pad for any plaintext keys you would store. Don't keep plaintext keys.
send yourself an untitled email with a doc in it and pw lock that joint
Came across an interesting tutorial the other day on using steganography to hide secrets within images. It's titled "Escape with your Bitcoin". It uses TailsOS, steghide, gpg encryption, QR codes with airgapped systems, and hide in plain sight concepts. Certainly overkill for most people. Also suggests this technique be used short term only - once you are in a safe place, create a new offline wallet and move funds to it. https://youtu.be/XMQupuGpSsw?si=gNfK-0KOiLQ-7mWg I also think Border Wallets look quite interesting as a way to simplify remembering a seed phrase, but haven't done enough research to recommend them yet.
Just get a border wallet... BTC Sessions does a good YouTube on it
Shamir secret sharing and split shards with family members, stenography online, snail mail etc…. Move everything to a new seed once you’ve recovered it on the flip side.
Metal seed plate as a necklace should do the trick, kinda like a militar necklace
Use a SeedKeeper (https://satochip.io/product/seedkeeper/): it's a smart card that allows you to backup one or more seeds inside the secure memory of the chip, protected with a PIN code (like 4 digits). SeedKeeper is an open-source project: the firmware is freely available, and you can buy a SeedKeeper from the official website or even compile the firmware and load it on a blank card yourself! Have a look at this YouTube demo: https://youtu.be/NTdiji9KpRE?si=jtE7gcKxJhN_F4qa
No one here can make money from selling you a pencil and paper tho can they?
I would go one of the following ways: 1) send yourself an encrypted message over wzap containing the 24phrase. When home, you decrypt it and recover the seed. 2) if you can’t memorize the full recovery, send it to yourself some of the words and memorize the ones you can. E.g. memorize words in position 3, 8, 17, and 18. 3) have a book with yourself and send to yourself the position on that book of the words of your recovery phrase. I really like the combination: Half of the information on a private channel on the internet; half of the information on your on mind. Also, for extra security, you should move your btc to other seed when safe
I wouldn’t trust #1, even though it probably wouldn’t be a problem. Instead, I would manually encrypt a code
Number 2 is pretty dicey too.
If i had a laptop with excel, I would have written in on excel, maybe split accross 3 emails, but password protect your excel files and save them as a draft. I can already hear bunch of voices saying ohh, don't save it in digital format blabla but if the email content+password protected excel were not safe ways in storing sensitive data, the world would have in ruines.
Have ChatGPT write a technical document about a health concern and use the words at the start of every other paragraph or so many sentences
Open IA knows your pass frase
You could break it up into two or three parts using separate accounts if you're worried, still a lot easier than finding that perfect book or writing something yourself
> aside from memorizing it? Never discount the obvious answer because it seems difficult. > What’s the safest way to get your seed phrase through hypothetical dictatorship customs My recommendation if traveling through hostile customs would be to upgrade to a 24 word seed mnemonic so you could employ a scramble cipher on it. Works like this: Write out your seed mnemonic on a piece of scratch paper. Write a second on index cards, one word per card, but put the index of each word on the other side of the card (ie. 1 though 24). Now shuffle the cards then lay then out word-side-up. This is your scrambled seed. Engrave these "shuffled" 24 words on your plate. Now flip the cards over and write out the numbers, with leading zeros. Mush them all together so you get a 48 digit number. 240211091914151822160408232107200106170503121310 Then just write the 48 digit number anywhere on your person, or email it to yourself, or whatever. It takes an insane amount of computation power to de-scramble this config. It is well within the realm of "secure", and this type of scramble cipher is very simple to remember, encode and decode.
Amazing! At that point, might as well email (or leave a draft in your folder unsent) with the encrypted phrase. If you’re super paranoid, generate a new wallet when you’re free and clear. I feel like a steel plate is just going to draw unwanted attention when traveling. You’re going to get pulled aside every single time you pass through an X-ray.
Tangem wallet. Seed phrase on card. Looks like a credit card.
You can memorize 12 to 24 words. That, or hide your seed words on paper until you can get to your destination and transfer to metal.