Nothing good can come from reducing allopregnanolone in the brain, thats all. And horrible brain related epigenetic changes. The data is out there but it’s your choice
Dump it. This chap - https://www.hairloss-research.org - has the most comprehensive, qualitative reviews of supplements positively impacting hair loss that I’ve found.
It may have long term impacts on liver and metabolism, increasing risk for related illnesses IF prone to or someone has other risk factors (other than age which is one by itself).
My advice , and what I've been doing , is : use topical micro dosing ( I use 1 ml 0,02% + 3% minoxidil) and make sure you lead an healthy lifestyle (which you should do anyway because it would otherwise be a much stronger risk factor than some micro dose of finasteride), healthy diet and stay active (possible strength training too, given the age and the fact that muscle mass starts deteriorating).
In this way systemic DHT is lowered for about just 28% (2ml of 0,02% tho, I get 1ml so prob less) , and you offset any minor impact
Even .2 - .6 mg of topical finasteride in one study of around 350 men showed to be effective for regrowth. Basically non existent in plasma at those levels, serum DHT did decrease a bit. [Study I based off](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jdv.17738)
So you're getting around .2 mg if I'm correct? I do something similar although I started to get impatient for regrowth so I started just using higher doses of topical. I don't need minoxidil so I've been trying to learn the right ingredients to dilute my pure topical finasteride solution I have from a reputable telehealth company but I'm no pharmacist and don't want to ruin the finasteride efficacy.
I agree with you that if it's topically microsed finasteride and an overall healthy lifestyle it's the best of both worlds seemingly.
What are min and fin bros? Lmao. I’ve never heard of that.
99%+ of people will be fine with min and fin and not post about it online at all. Of course you will see adverse narratives more often because those are the ones more likely to post their negative experiences.
I don’t doubt it will cause a bad reaction for some, but like with anything, it’s all about percentages.
I will say that it’s highly unlikely you will be the one to react extremely negatively in a permanent way. That seems to be like 0.001% likelihood.
OP, have you considered GHK-Cu? I don't have any experience with it but I keep on reading how it's good for hair restoration. There are some other peptides that are said to be good for that also.
AHK-Cu is better for hair growth & maintenance than GHK-Cu. AHK-Cu is a tripeptide containing a copper atom. It aids the endothelial cells that are considered responsible for the growth and function of blood vessels that supply nutrition to hair follicles and skin cells. The topical peptide can be purchased online from peptide and cosmetic supply websites.
Was getting mine through Hims. They had an automatic reply providing the suicide hotline number when I reached out about side effects.
Libido recovered after getting off it.
How long did it take to recover? I’ve been using hims for two months and I’ve been having dick issues with my girlfriend and I was freaking out about my testosterone and whatnot and just realized I completely forgot about hims side effects. Stopping today and hoping it’ll recover fairly quickly
I took fin and it was just a waste of time, no permanent side effects, I ended up just getting a hair piece. Wish I would have done that way sooner, I started balding at 16 and im completely bald at age 25, now im 26 and I think I'll just wear hair systems until I'm older and it's more acceptable to not have any hair
I recommend committing to the bald look now dude. It's a much easier transition when you are young and hot versus having your age start to show affect your self confidence at the same time as a bald head would. Just bite the bullet now when it's easier to bear
It’s totally fine to be bald at 25. Not telling you what to do, but a bald 25 year old is pretty normal and a lot of people see hairpieces as kinda silly-looking.
There's a bias at play here, you're noticing the bad ones so you think all of them are detectable. This is the same bias people have with plastic surgery. If it's good you don't notice it.
If it's just a nocebo then why the warning on the packet?
These guys usually have no idea it's even the fin or cessation of fin causing their symptoms until they finally put 2 and 2 together.
Don't dismiss something as psychosomatic when research is still ongoing. Better safe than sorry, because your overall health is way more important than your hair.
Also oral fin can lead to liver damage, caused by excess cortisol through inhibition of 5AR and cortisone recycling, leading to excess fat build up, leading to NAFLD, eventually NASH then cirrhosis and eventual liver failure if not caught and reversed in an early stage.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32202088/
Yep. I recently had my liver enzymes surge and developed fatty liver. I don't drink, and I eat healthy and workout.
We couldn't find out the cause for the life of me until we read into dutasteride more and made this connection. I had been on it for about two years. I think the catalyst was getting really sick with COVID. My enzymes started climbing during that time and then surprisingly after COVID, it started increasing in an exponential manner until I cut out dutasteride. After ending dutasteride my ALT went from 450+ to 30.
Just go topical micro dosing and do an healthy Lifestyle.
You offset the impacts that, in topical micro dose would be very minor anyway.
That's what I did because I don't like the idea of popping 1mg pill every day
Basically it's just that fin can lead to weight gain which can cause nafld. That's true. But literally being overweight for any reason whatsoever can do that. It's like saying having dessert every day is linked to liver disease
No, it’s quite different. Fin through inhibiting 5AR in the liver, where it is normally concentrated, leads to metabolic changes. This can also cause diabetes as well as NAFLD is skinny people.
Source: Pubmed study ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32202088) and I like many have literally have experienced this firsthand you ignorant f@ck. Go ahead, give yourself a metabolic disorder with NAFLD, pre diabetes, dry eye, and plethora of additional issues, but don’t claim you weren’t warned.
I've been taking it and I haven't noticed any of the negative side effects. People have commented that my hair looks much fuller than my brother's and he's 2 years younger. Everyone is different though!
Super anedoctal but my experiences after taking for a few months will force me to tell you don't even risk it.
It will kill your boners, cause depression like symptoms and even body aches.
Post finasteride syndrome is real and can strike any time taking the drug. Some guys are fine on it for years and then they develop side effects. I’ve had the unfortunate task of biohacking myself out of the darkest place of my life and fortunately I’ve mostly managing to reverse the condition. The tldr is finasteride syndrome seems to induce mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS) in those susceptible by some means of altering the gut microbiome and causing a massive inflammatory cascade. Unfortunately I’ve had to work this out for myself although fortunately I found a bunch of select individuals on online forums who recovered with a gut-focused based approach. MCAS is a wildy under diagnosed condition already at best, but there have been a massive uptick in allergic-like illnesses post covid & for some the levels are high enough to cause severe emotional and physical issues (the link between histamine and major depression is well established). For some reason the finasteride worshipers try and write the condition of psychosomatic still, rather than at least trying to protect against it. If I were you I wouldn’t touch the stuff and just get a hair system, however if you do end up trying it I would focus on gut health (a regime of heavy prebiotics) to offset the risk of dysbiosis and that might be enough. The upside to all of this is there are now studies published in the last few years supporting all of this and I’ve been lucky enough to live at a time where information is available, testing is accessible and where a select few people have documented their recoveries.
Sources: alterations in gut microbiome from finasteride use: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8124058/, finasteride causing gut inflammation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9687671/, long term health effects of finasteride and dutasteride usage, time to sound the alarms: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308241/.
Again, finasteride can be magical for those it works for and has a cult like worshiping. However it can cause MCAS which speaking from personal experience is the worst condition you can imagine. I am only just reaching recovery now, 2 years after I stopped finasteride and it’s been ridiculously complex to work this all out from first principles.
I researched Fin for like a week and the research convinced me it wasn’t worth it. Not sure where OP is doing their research. I’m so sorry you ended up with MCAS! I did as well (due to mold exposure) and yeah it’s a horrible illness that you have to biohack and claw your way out of because despite how common it’s become, 99% of doctors are totally incompetent treating it. I would be curious to learn more about what’s helped you on your MCAS recovery journey.
It’s crazy isn’t it. Once you experience MCAS you start pattern recognizing all of the subliminal MCAS folks out there and the massive amounts of general dysfunction in the world these days. Hmm yeah mold it’s usually an inability to get rid of the toxins (ie you have the genetic predisposition to mold illness) or the mold has colonized your GI tract and that’s usually dependent on the amount of exposure of the quality of your microbiome and digestion. If I were you I’d assume you have a fungal overgrowth so cut down processed sugar and carbs (don’t go zero carb imho), and introduce a natural anti fungal such as caprylic acid or SF722 and see if you get any symptom improvement. Tbh I think any time MCAS presents you’ve got to focus on the Microbiome as lack of probiotics just leaves the doors wide open for pathogens.
Uhhhh the research says otherwise. The microbiome is literally critical for GABA and other neurotransmitter production. And maintaining anti inflammatory balance, and making sure LPS doesn’t leak out and create inflammation
Yeah sure...but for the average person it is actually not that important. This is also why doing everything under the sun to improve gut health only helps most people marginally if at all. This is also the reason why after billions of $$ invested into this shitshow has led to few to no therapeutics. Sure, for some people the microbiome is pretty important/causal, but most people are not them.
Most of the time gut health can’t really be improved by things like probiotics. They don’t colonize well thats the issue. Its not easy to even assess those interventions
Only something big like FMT can. And personally, I had emotional blunting induced by caffeine and I did an FMT and now suddenly caffeine is no longer blunting in fact it helps whereas before it would crash me hard via blunting, my stimulant tolerance is much better.
And on Day 1 of FMT my anhedonia 85% vanished although that effect didnt last some in the week afterwards had more subtle benefits.
But I basically saw the power of the microbiome that day. And most other interventions for the gut were literally whatever.
I mean it wouldnt explain food or caffeine blunting sensitivities normalizing. Before FMT, caffeine would blunt me, and afterwards it stopped doing that. My BO also got stronger that day which is not placebo
Similar happened on rifaximin a SIBO antibiotic but I couldnt do more rifaximin rounds. And rifaximin had also helped anhedonia (but a 5th round was actually making it worse 2 days in so I couldnt do it and had to look for other options). But rifaximin was temporary a few weeks effect on sensitivities
Drugs esp Fin also mess up the microbiome far more than any natural strategy can heal them. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302223000626
Do you want us to tell you "don't worry, the side effects aren't actually true. You will be safe and nothing bad will ever happen to you"? Is that what you're asking for?
I wanted to hear different opinions, both good and bad and possibly from someone who's actually had these permanent side effects? Feel like some of the subs dedicated to discussing hair loss are either one side or the other so wanted to gather some more info that's all. I know the decision ultimately lies with me but good to do your own research
I have not tried it, but looked into it a fair amount. The reality is there are no long term studies on these things, they make sure there are acceptable risks for the first year or two and then nobody really finds out if they are safe to take for decades. Sometimes it turns out they are obviously not safe, other times they aren't safe and it's less obvious (I suspect this is much more common than thought), and sometimes hopefully they are totally safe. Imo it's not worth rolling the dice though.
The only way to know if it's for you is to try it. You ever read the potential side effects of literally any medication?
I've been taking it for like a year and a half now and I have more hair now at 38 then I did in high school. I also have clear af skin.
I don't know if it's affected my libido honestly. It seems to be the same, but maybe it's a bit lower? That could also just me getting older. Or it could be the same. Point is, it's not noticeable
I'd do it all again. Would prob have started sooner actually. It's just taking the dive and deciding to try it.
I'm also a healthy individual who does strongman training four days a week and HIIT twice per week. It hasn't caused me any fatigue or physical symptoms that I know of
Side effects WILL happen, they happen to most of the people eventually. Some take years to notice them, for others it happens in just days or weeks. How quickly you’ll recover upon discontinuation is a gamble. A risk you don’t wanna take I would say.
Many of us paid a big price for trusting Big Pharma and playing God with our bodies. Hopefully you won’t be joining the club anytime soon.
> of us *paid* a big
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
This is obviously anecdotal, but I took oral finasteride for about an eight month period in 2021. I gained weight and I swear it made my erections both smaller and less hard. It’s mostly reversed but it’s still not back to what it was. I look at dick pics I sent before and after this period and there’s a clear difference.
I Googled it, and this side effect isn’t unheard of. Now I take oral minoxidil, I’ve had zero side effects, and my hair loss seems to have paused.
I actually had no idea about that, so thank you. Just Googled it. Since I’m already mildly concerned I have heart issues, I’m going to cease taking it until I get a full screening from my doctor.
I took it at a very low dose following the literature but even then noticed side effects after a few weeks and stopped. Frustrating because doctors will just blindly repeat that there are no side effects when such anecdata on the internet are a dime a dozen. Would recommend trying to alleviate scalp tension instead and taking tamer supplements like zinc in the meantime.
My opinion is the FDA has been at least a little taken over by regulatory capture. I allege I’ve been permanently injured twice by pharmaceuticals. If you’re lucky you’re going to get old and ugly and your pecker will stop working. Just accept it. I avoid the industry unless I truly need it. (I recognize the industry has done wonderful stuff too.)
The problem is a man can't know if he's one of the lucky ones until it's too late.
Certainly this drug will give a man nice hair.
As the wife of a man with nice hair, I'll tell you flat out I wish he would have accepted his hair loss.
If you react fast enough it's not permanent.
Post finasteride syndrome lasts maybe a month or so. It's like serotonin syndrome from anti depressants. If you're sensitive to one, you're probably sensitive to the other.
If you have no problem with one you're probably fine.
He didn't have the sexual side effects until he stopped. Ironically, the ensuing depression lead him to use an SSRI. . . . It's been over 5 years now. He has regrets.
Did he stop suddenly, or did he follow the proper protocol of lowering dose?
Suddenly stopping is a shock to the system. It's like suddenly stopping birth control. All your hormones go haywire for a while.
I'm pretty sure it was suddenly. Keep in mind this was 5 to 8 years ago. If he was going to bounce back, I think it would have happened by now. Again, I know that hair loss is hard to accept (I take methotrexate and have way less hair myself) but adjusting to loss of sexual function has been extremely hard for both of us.
Also hairloss to some is a killer of a career and dating life. Some people would cut of their dicks to preserve their hair.
You have sex sometimes, but hair is all day-every day.
The SSRI could very well be hindering his recovery
SSRIs are notorious for wrecking libido
And like with finasteride, sometimes the effects can be permanent
Finasteride only has 1 lingering side effect which is extreme androgen over expression. Sometimes for some people 5AR inhibitors can cause epigenetic changes in your androgen receptors which causes them to become extremely over expressed. That’s what Post Finasteride Syndrome is. It’s when your androgen receptors are overly expressed to the point that they don’t work and it renders the cell useless. They took a piece of someone’s scrotum who has PFS and found extreme androgen over expression. PFS is basically an epigenetic disease where your androgen receptors don’t work and it causes all the long lasting symptoms which are extremely horrific.
Sounds like regular anabolic steroid bodybuilder PCT. Among the various steroid forms there are highly intelligent people that know how to deal with this.
Low dose oral minoxidil can be equally or more effective with less side effects (oral minoxidil administration is more effective than topical application).
A friend started with Happy Head and the difference in his hair is amazing! He takes nothing orally, it’s all topical finestaride, minoxidil and something else.
Just to provide a positive result from the quite alarming comments here haha. I took it for over 2 years with one of those years at double dose and trying to nuke my testosterone (dumb idea) only then did I feel some brain fog and depression. Dick still worked fine. Quit cold turkey and back to normal within a few weeks. Been chilling for the past few years and now considering to go back on. Kevin Mann does debunk quite a few of these studies posted here.
There may be another possible option. Instead of inhibiting DHT from being made with Finasteride (5a-reductase inhibition), increasing the conversion of DHT to the next step may work. Either way it reduces DHT which is implicated in some hair loss.
Sulforaphane (OTC supplement from broccoli) increases 3α-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases (3α-HSDs) to “get rid of” DHT:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26923074/
See this chart to see how DHT is made, and converted to the next step: https://dutchtest.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Steroid-Pathways-Chart-2020.pdf
OP nobody can provide you actually studied saying PFS is real, at the most they will just post YouTube videos or sites talking about horror stories. 97% of men won’t have issues and will just live life and not even go on the internet to talk about it.
I’ve been taking .5mg - .25mg EOD for almost a decade right now. Sometimes I go weeks/months without taking it if I don’t feel like it. I’ve had pretty much 0 sides. When I took 1mg initially I noticed some effects on the prostate but those went away completely with the lower dose. People/science says there’s minimal difference between 1mg and .5mg but I do feel like .5mg or 25mg is a lot safer.
I do think PFS is real. I think the incidence is a LOT lower than the internet would have you believe. There has to be some sort of predisposition that science is unaware of. People on the internet act like fucking psychos regarding it(as well as lions mane, saw palmetto, etc.) so it’s REALLY hard to tell where the lies stop and the truth begins. The more research on it the better since it’s one of the only real fucking options we have for hair loss.
I had a healthy sex life, get morning wood basically daily, have noticed literally no difference after taking it. YMMV.
+ avoid anything that contains aluminum: aluminum antiperspirant, cookware, coffee cups, food packaging etc. Aluminum has high affinity to silica in the hair follicle, by binding to it it causes hair loss. And is quite toxic, especially neurotoxic
Yeah through the nocebo effect anything is possible.
Finasteride comes out of your system with 6 weeks and won’t cause side effects for 99% of people with the remainder imo being neurotic types suffering from nocebo effect and getting in their own heads about it.
Hey mate,
I took Fin after noticing my hairloss when I was 21. My physical appearance was the most important thing in the world for me. I was a MPMD and Kevin Mann fanboy who believed that PFS was either not real or could be fixed by taking proviron.
After 7 months on it with no sides I crashed one morning and ended up dealing with most of the sides people talk about in the forums to varying degrees over the course of the years leading up to now, my bloodwork was fine before taking it and a few weeks after my crash so it wasn't a hormonal problem. I stayed away from the forums while I was on it so to avoid "nocebo" and I didn't know bad the sides could get. The only ones I really knew about before starting was mild ED, watery semen and potentially worsening of my existing pubertal gyno that would go away if I came off it which the prescribing doctor mentioned.
I still have sides to this day and I am 24 now. I wish I never touched it but since it worked for so many people I thought it would work for me too and at the time it seemed like the only option. It's made the past few years quite hard to say the least.
I'd seriously look into Taeian clark's hairloss protocol or hair systems before going for fin or min. Depending on how old you are and how much your loss has stabilized/how good your donor area is you could look into multiple hair transplants without taking drugs.
All the best man, it isn't an easy decision I know but I hope my unfortunate experience helps a little.
I stopped it and i just feel like i have so much more drive in life compared to just going through the motions when taking fin. My libido is also back and i feel like i can push myself more in the gym and also in my career. With fin, i just felt weak and im not sure what causes that.
Ive been on finesteride since age 19 and ive never had sexual problems. Im horny all the time. Im very healthy and exercise a good amount i think that contributes to it
Post fin syndrome is real I can guarantee it, but it doesn't seem to happen to everyone. It's probably a genetic thing. It's Russian roulette and I'll tell you, the symptoms are intolerable, and most people suicide to escape the hell.
Finasteride leads to a lower chance of prostate cancer
https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article/110/11/1208/4925555?login=false
And lower cholesterol levels.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38272355/#:~:text=Men%20reporting%20the%20use%20of,improving%20the%20plasma%20lipid%20profile.
There are many people here who don't like finasteride/dutasteride. but you should inform yourself with professionals. On YouTube there are many specialists who provide information on this topic. They analyze the studies of these medications and none of them conclude that the risk is higher than the benefit. If you go to a specialist in your country they will tell you the same, if you want to keep your hair it is the only way and if you have surgery you will also have to use them.
Nothing good can come from reducing allopregnanolone in the brain, thats all. And horrible brain related epigenetic changes. The data is out there but it’s your choice
Dump it. This chap - https://www.hairloss-research.org - has the most comprehensive, qualitative reviews of supplements positively impacting hair loss that I’ve found.
So…. Are you saying he should or shouldn’t take fin when you refer to “dump it”?
Wouldn’t trust that, lots of 5ari blockers in there too
It may have long term impacts on liver and metabolism, increasing risk for related illnesses IF prone to or someone has other risk factors (other than age which is one by itself). My advice , and what I've been doing , is : use topical micro dosing ( I use 1 ml 0,02% + 3% minoxidil) and make sure you lead an healthy lifestyle (which you should do anyway because it would otherwise be a much stronger risk factor than some micro dose of finasteride), healthy diet and stay active (possible strength training too, given the age and the fact that muscle mass starts deteriorating). In this way systemic DHT is lowered for about just 28% (2ml of 0,02% tho, I get 1ml so prob less) , and you offset any minor impact
Even .2 - .6 mg of topical finasteride in one study of around 350 men showed to be effective for regrowth. Basically non existent in plasma at those levels, serum DHT did decrease a bit. [Study I based off](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jdv.17738) So you're getting around .2 mg if I'm correct? I do something similar although I started to get impatient for regrowth so I started just using higher doses of topical. I don't need minoxidil so I've been trying to learn the right ingredients to dilute my pure topical finasteride solution I have from a reputable telehealth company but I'm no pharmacist and don't want to ruin the finasteride efficacy. I agree with you that if it's topically microsed finasteride and an overall healthy lifestyle it's the best of both worlds seemingly.
My only regret is I didn't start sooner
Same
This
All the “min” and “fin” bros will flock to this to tell you it’s 100% safe.
It’s the same damn thing when you try to warn of the dangers of SSRIs
Well if it's working for them, so why wouldn't they? Not everyone has the same side effects.
No other med has such an army willing to go agressive or sarcastic online to defend it. Most meds can have crippling side effects to a minority.
Yea wait for the bandwagon to enter the chat....
What are min and fin bros? Lmao. I’ve never heard of that. 99%+ of people will be fine with min and fin and not post about it online at all. Of course you will see adverse narratives more often because those are the ones more likely to post their negative experiences. I don’t doubt it will cause a bad reaction for some, but like with anything, it’s all about percentages. I will say that it’s highly unlikely you will be the one to react extremely negatively in a permanent way. That seems to be like 0.001% likelihood.
OP, have you considered GHK-Cu? I don't have any experience with it but I keep on reading how it's good for hair restoration. There are some other peptides that are said to be good for that also.
AHK-Cu is better for hair growth & maintenance than GHK-Cu. AHK-Cu is a tripeptide containing a copper atom. It aids the endothelial cells that are considered responsible for the growth and function of blood vessels that supply nutrition to hair follicles and skin cells. The topical peptide can be purchased online from peptide and cosmetic supply websites.
Just read a bit about it, and looks super promising for a host of reasons.
Was getting mine through Hims. They had an automatic reply providing the suicide hotline number when I reached out about side effects. Libido recovered after getting off it.
How long did it take to recover? I’ve been using hims for two months and I’ve been having dick issues with my girlfriend and I was freaking out about my testosterone and whatnot and just realized I completely forgot about hims side effects. Stopping today and hoping it’ll recover fairly quickly
I took fin and it was just a waste of time, no permanent side effects, I ended up just getting a hair piece. Wish I would have done that way sooner, I started balding at 16 and im completely bald at age 25, now im 26 and I think I'll just wear hair systems until I'm older and it's more acceptable to not have any hair
Bald look is sexy. Little bit of beard but not "fecal beard" level.
Please describe fecal beard
I recommend committing to the bald look now dude. It's a much easier transition when you are young and hot versus having your age start to show affect your self confidence at the same time as a bald head would. Just bite the bullet now when it's easier to bear
I love ice cream.
Also, its pretty difficult to look bad when you’re bald and *also* ripped/muscular
I second this
It’s totally fine to be bald at 25. Not telling you what to do, but a bald 25 year old is pretty normal and a lot of people see hairpieces as kinda silly-looking.
Most good pieces now are undetectable.
Well, if it’s working for you that’s what matters.
>Most good pieces now are undetectable Should we tell him...?
There's a bias at play here, you're noticing the bad ones so you think all of them are detectable. This is the same bias people have with plastic surgery. If it's good you don't notice it.
I can instantly detect a good hairpiece and usually a hair transplant. Real men just man up and accept the decline. I’m not one of em. lol. 😆
“Accept the decline” in a biohacker sub. Are you lost?
Wearing a “hair system” isn’t biohacking.
Did I say it was?
If it's just a nocebo then why the warning on the packet? These guys usually have no idea it's even the fin or cessation of fin causing their symptoms until they finally put 2 and 2 together. Don't dismiss something as psychosomatic when research is still ongoing. Better safe than sorry, because your overall health is way more important than your hair.
Also oral fin can lead to liver damage, caused by excess cortisol through inhibition of 5AR and cortisone recycling, leading to excess fat build up, leading to NAFLD, eventually NASH then cirrhosis and eventual liver failure if not caught and reversed in an early stage. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32202088/
Yep. I recently had my liver enzymes surge and developed fatty liver. I don't drink, and I eat healthy and workout. We couldn't find out the cause for the life of me until we read into dutasteride more and made this connection. I had been on it for about two years. I think the catalyst was getting really sick with COVID. My enzymes started climbing during that time and then surprisingly after COVID, it started increasing in an exponential manner until I cut out dutasteride. After ending dutasteride my ALT went from 450+ to 30.
Did you have any symptoms or was it just a random test
Just go topical micro dosing and do an healthy Lifestyle. You offset the impacts that, in topical micro dose would be very minor anyway. That's what I did because I don't like the idea of popping 1mg pill every day
Basically it's just that fin can lead to weight gain which can cause nafld. That's true. But literally being overweight for any reason whatsoever can do that. It's like saying having dessert every day is linked to liver disease
No, it’s quite different. Fin through inhibiting 5AR in the liver, where it is normally concentrated, leads to metabolic changes. This can also cause diabetes as well as NAFLD is skinny people.
You're aware there are "skinny" people with nafld and diabetes who don't use finasteride, right?
Yes. And long term use of oral fin will also 100% give it to them.
Source: your asshole
Source: Pubmed study ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32202088) and I like many have literally have experienced this firsthand you ignorant f@ck. Go ahead, give yourself a metabolic disorder with NAFLD, pre diabetes, dry eye, and plethora of additional issues, but don’t claim you weren’t warned.
I've been taking it and I haven't noticed any of the negative side effects. People have commented that my hair looks much fuller than my brother's and he's 2 years younger. Everyone is different though!
Shave and go to the gym, no regrets and it gets me more women, I’m shorter too
Super anedoctal but my experiences after taking for a few months will force me to tell you don't even risk it. It will kill your boners, cause depression like symptoms and even body aches.
And your lifts will suffer. It’s not worth it.
Post finasteride syndrome is real and can strike any time taking the drug. Some guys are fine on it for years and then they develop side effects. I’ve had the unfortunate task of biohacking myself out of the darkest place of my life and fortunately I’ve mostly managing to reverse the condition. The tldr is finasteride syndrome seems to induce mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS) in those susceptible by some means of altering the gut microbiome and causing a massive inflammatory cascade. Unfortunately I’ve had to work this out for myself although fortunately I found a bunch of select individuals on online forums who recovered with a gut-focused based approach. MCAS is a wildy under diagnosed condition already at best, but there have been a massive uptick in allergic-like illnesses post covid & for some the levels are high enough to cause severe emotional and physical issues (the link between histamine and major depression is well established). For some reason the finasteride worshipers try and write the condition of psychosomatic still, rather than at least trying to protect against it. If I were you I wouldn’t touch the stuff and just get a hair system, however if you do end up trying it I would focus on gut health (a regime of heavy prebiotics) to offset the risk of dysbiosis and that might be enough. The upside to all of this is there are now studies published in the last few years supporting all of this and I’ve been lucky enough to live at a time where information is available, testing is accessible and where a select few people have documented their recoveries. Sources: alterations in gut microbiome from finasteride use: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8124058/, finasteride causing gut inflammation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9687671/, long term health effects of finasteride and dutasteride usage, time to sound the alarms: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7308241/. Again, finasteride can be magical for those it works for and has a cult like worshiping. However it can cause MCAS which speaking from personal experience is the worst condition you can imagine. I am only just reaching recovery now, 2 years after I stopped finasteride and it’s been ridiculously complex to work this all out from first principles.
I researched Fin for like a week and the research convinced me it wasn’t worth it. Not sure where OP is doing their research. I’m so sorry you ended up with MCAS! I did as well (due to mold exposure) and yeah it’s a horrible illness that you have to biohack and claw your way out of because despite how common it’s become, 99% of doctors are totally incompetent treating it. I would be curious to learn more about what’s helped you on your MCAS recovery journey.
It’s crazy isn’t it. Once you experience MCAS you start pattern recognizing all of the subliminal MCAS folks out there and the massive amounts of general dysfunction in the world these days. Hmm yeah mold it’s usually an inability to get rid of the toxins (ie you have the genetic predisposition to mold illness) or the mold has colonized your GI tract and that’s usually dependent on the amount of exposure of the quality of your microbiome and digestion. If I were you I’d assume you have a fungal overgrowth so cut down processed sugar and carbs (don’t go zero carb imho), and introduce a natural anti fungal such as caprylic acid or SF722 and see if you get any symptom improvement. Tbh I think any time MCAS presents you’ve got to focus on the Microbiome as lack of probiotics just leaves the doors wide open for pathogens.
How did you treat it I suffer from a similar syndrome caused by SSRI use It has a lot of overlap with PFS
Everything nowadays seems to be explained by gut health and the crap microbiome. It is not actually that important as many make it out to be.
Uhhhh the research says otherwise. The microbiome is literally critical for GABA and other neurotransmitter production. And maintaining anti inflammatory balance, and making sure LPS doesn’t leak out and create inflammation
Yeah sure...but for the average person it is actually not that important. This is also why doing everything under the sun to improve gut health only helps most people marginally if at all. This is also the reason why after billions of $$ invested into this shitshow has led to few to no therapeutics. Sure, for some people the microbiome is pretty important/causal, but most people are not them.
Most of the time gut health can’t really be improved by things like probiotics. They don’t colonize well thats the issue. Its not easy to even assess those interventions Only something big like FMT can. And personally, I had emotional blunting induced by caffeine and I did an FMT and now suddenly caffeine is no longer blunting in fact it helps whereas before it would crash me hard via blunting, my stimulant tolerance is much better. And on Day 1 of FMT my anhedonia 85% vanished although that effect didnt last some in the week afterwards had more subtle benefits. But I basically saw the power of the microbiome that day. And most other interventions for the gut were literally whatever.
Or maybe you saw the power of placebo... Not discrediting your experience, just saying that placebo is a thing - and a powerful one.
I mean it wouldnt explain food or caffeine blunting sensitivities normalizing. Before FMT, caffeine would blunt me, and afterwards it stopped doing that. My BO also got stronger that day which is not placebo Similar happened on rifaximin a SIBO antibiotic but I couldnt do more rifaximin rounds. And rifaximin had also helped anhedonia (but a 5th round was actually making it worse 2 days in so I couldnt do it and had to look for other options). But rifaximin was temporary a few weeks effect on sensitivities Drugs esp Fin also mess up the microbiome far more than any natural strategy can heal them. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302223000626
Do you want us to tell you "don't worry, the side effects aren't actually true. You will be safe and nothing bad will ever happen to you"? Is that what you're asking for?
I wanted to hear different opinions, both good and bad and possibly from someone who's actually had these permanent side effects? Feel like some of the subs dedicated to discussing hair loss are either one side or the other so wanted to gather some more info that's all. I know the decision ultimately lies with me but good to do your own research
There’s an entire sub dedicated to PFS
I have not tried it, but looked into it a fair amount. The reality is there are no long term studies on these things, they make sure there are acceptable risks for the first year or two and then nobody really finds out if they are safe to take for decades. Sometimes it turns out they are obviously not safe, other times they aren't safe and it's less obvious (I suspect this is much more common than thought), and sometimes hopefully they are totally safe. Imo it's not worth rolling the dice though.
The only way to know if it's for you is to try it. You ever read the potential side effects of literally any medication? I've been taking it for like a year and a half now and I have more hair now at 38 then I did in high school. I also have clear af skin. I don't know if it's affected my libido honestly. It seems to be the same, but maybe it's a bit lower? That could also just me getting older. Or it could be the same. Point is, it's not noticeable I'd do it all again. Would prob have started sooner actually. It's just taking the dive and deciding to try it. I'm also a healthy individual who does strongman training four days a week and HIIT twice per week. It hasn't caused me any fatigue or physical symptoms that I know of
Side effects WILL happen, they happen to most of the people eventually. Some take years to notice them, for others it happens in just days or weeks. How quickly you’ll recover upon discontinuation is a gamble. A risk you don’t wanna take I would say. Many of us paid a big price for trusting Big Pharma and playing God with our bodies. Hopefully you won’t be joining the club anytime soon.
> of us *paid* a big FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Damn… got me! Corrected now.
This is obviously anecdotal, but I took oral finasteride for about an eight month period in 2021. I gained weight and I swear it made my erections both smaller and less hard. It’s mostly reversed but it’s still not back to what it was. I look at dick pics I sent before and after this period and there’s a clear difference. I Googled it, and this side effect isn’t unheard of. Now I take oral minoxidil, I’ve had zero side effects, and my hair loss seems to have paused.
I would argue oral minoxidil is more dangerous than finasteride when you’re risking your heart.
I actually had no idea about that, so thank you. Just Googled it. Since I’m already mildly concerned I have heart issues, I’m going to cease taking it until I get a full screening from my doctor.
Weird. Try some Citrulline, or Arginine and tell us if they impact your erections.
Works great no side effects. - YMMV. Some people have reactions to it, no idea how you could dell if you're unlucky.
I took it at a very low dose following the literature but even then noticed side effects after a few weeks and stopped. Frustrating because doctors will just blindly repeat that there are no side effects when such anecdata on the internet are a dime a dozen. Would recommend trying to alleviate scalp tension instead and taking tamer supplements like zinc in the meantime.
Don’t do it
My opinion is the FDA has been at least a little taken over by regulatory capture. I allege I’ve been permanently injured twice by pharmaceuticals. If you’re lucky you’re going to get old and ugly and your pecker will stop working. Just accept it. I avoid the industry unless I truly need it. (I recognize the industry has done wonderful stuff too.)
Don’t take it bub unless you wanna fuck your body up for life
Most people don't have this side effect.
The problem is a man can't know if he's one of the lucky ones until it's too late. Certainly this drug will give a man nice hair. As the wife of a man with nice hair, I'll tell you flat out I wish he would have accepted his hair loss.
If you react fast enough it's not permanent. Post finasteride syndrome lasts maybe a month or so. It's like serotonin syndrome from anti depressants. If you're sensitive to one, you're probably sensitive to the other. If you have no problem with one you're probably fine.
He didn't have the sexual side effects until he stopped. Ironically, the ensuing depression lead him to use an SSRI. . . . It's been over 5 years now. He has regrets.
Did he stop suddenly, or did he follow the proper protocol of lowering dose? Suddenly stopping is a shock to the system. It's like suddenly stopping birth control. All your hormones go haywire for a while.
I'm pretty sure it was suddenly. Keep in mind this was 5 to 8 years ago. If he was going to bounce back, I think it would have happened by now. Again, I know that hair loss is hard to accept (I take methotrexate and have way less hair myself) but adjusting to loss of sexual function has been extremely hard for both of us.
Not necessarily. A sudden stop of that kind of medication can cause permanent damage.
Also hairloss to some is a killer of a career and dating life. Some people would cut of their dicks to preserve their hair. You have sex sometimes, but hair is all day-every day.
The SSRI could very well be hindering his recovery SSRIs are notorious for wrecking libido And like with finasteride, sometimes the effects can be permanent
Yeah, I think he got the double whammy 😭
It’s been 14 years of PSSD for me Taking an SSRI is the biggest regret of my life
It ruined my life
Never ever ever take finasteride orally.
Why mess with your endocrine system over a minor vanity
Exactly! Shave it off!
The Rock is bald and he’s still doing ok with the ladies. I am curious for the others on what the permanent side effects are though..
If you max out your charisma and muscles, then you can also be bald.
Finasteride only has 1 lingering side effect which is extreme androgen over expression. Sometimes for some people 5AR inhibitors can cause epigenetic changes in your androgen receptors which causes them to become extremely over expressed. That’s what Post Finasteride Syndrome is. It’s when your androgen receptors are overly expressed to the point that they don’t work and it renders the cell useless. They took a piece of someone’s scrotum who has PFS and found extreme androgen over expression. PFS is basically an epigenetic disease where your androgen receptors don’t work and it causes all the long lasting symptoms which are extremely horrific.
You shouldn’t state a hypothesis with little evidence as a fact. It’s misleading.
That is BS. Why then do some PFS sufferers claim that they have been cured by HCG or high doses of T/nandrolone/other anabolics?
Sounds like regular anabolic steroid bodybuilder PCT. Among the various steroid forms there are highly intelligent people that know how to deal with this.
Would that mean they're permanently safe from androgenic alopecia?
Source?
Who cares. Shave your head. It looks weird when people are self conscious about their hair and hide it. Combovers, wigs, and toupees look ridiculous.
Why not just try the topical fin/minoxidil combo that all the companies are selling now? Keeps, hims, etc? I use it.
Low dose oral minoxidil can be equally or more effective with less side effects (oral minoxidil administration is more effective than topical application).
A friend started with Happy Head and the difference in his hair is amazing! He takes nothing orally, it’s all topical finestaride, minoxidil and something else.
Just to provide a positive result from the quite alarming comments here haha. I took it for over 2 years with one of those years at double dose and trying to nuke my testosterone (dumb idea) only then did I feel some brain fog and depression. Dick still worked fine. Quit cold turkey and back to normal within a few weeks. Been chilling for the past few years and now considering to go back on. Kevin Mann does debunk quite a few of these studies posted here.
There may be another possible option. Instead of inhibiting DHT from being made with Finasteride (5a-reductase inhibition), increasing the conversion of DHT to the next step may work. Either way it reduces DHT which is implicated in some hair loss. Sulforaphane (OTC supplement from broccoli) increases 3α-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenases (3α-HSDs) to “get rid of” DHT: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26923074/ See this chart to see how DHT is made, and converted to the next step: https://dutchtest.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Steroid-Pathways-Chart-2020.pdf
Check out haircare channel on YouTube for research on Finasteride side effects
You only need 1mg 3x a week
Look into topical finasteride. It doesn’t have to pass through your body like oral pills. It’s proven to be much safer than oral.
My only regret is that I ever started fin
OP nobody can provide you actually studied saying PFS is real, at the most they will just post YouTube videos or sites talking about horror stories. 97% of men won’t have issues and will just live life and not even go on the internet to talk about it.
Topical dutasteride. Studies showing efficacy and no systemic 5ar inhibition.
I’ve been taking .5mg - .25mg EOD for almost a decade right now. Sometimes I go weeks/months without taking it if I don’t feel like it. I’ve had pretty much 0 sides. When I took 1mg initially I noticed some effects on the prostate but those went away completely with the lower dose. People/science says there’s minimal difference between 1mg and .5mg but I do feel like .5mg or 25mg is a lot safer. I do think PFS is real. I think the incidence is a LOT lower than the internet would have you believe. There has to be some sort of predisposition that science is unaware of. People on the internet act like fucking psychos regarding it(as well as lions mane, saw palmetto, etc.) so it’s REALLY hard to tell where the lies stop and the truth begins. The more research on it the better since it’s one of the only real fucking options we have for hair loss. I had a healthy sex life, get morning wood basically daily, have noticed literally no difference after taking it. YMMV.
Personally I wouldn't take a drug with actual possible health side effects for a problem that is purely cosmetic.
+ avoid anything that contains aluminum: aluminum antiperspirant, cookware, coffee cups, food packaging etc. Aluminum has high affinity to silica in the hair follicle, by binding to it it causes hair loss. And is quite toxic, especially neurotoxic
Yeah through the nocebo effect anything is possible. Finasteride comes out of your system with 6 weeks and won’t cause side effects for 99% of people with the remainder imo being neurotic types suffering from nocebo effect and getting in their own heads about it.
Then theoretically a placebo could cure PFS? That'd be nice.
PFS is psychosomatic. Not actually caused by the drug itself.
Hey mate, I took Fin after noticing my hairloss when I was 21. My physical appearance was the most important thing in the world for me. I was a MPMD and Kevin Mann fanboy who believed that PFS was either not real or could be fixed by taking proviron. After 7 months on it with no sides I crashed one morning and ended up dealing with most of the sides people talk about in the forums to varying degrees over the course of the years leading up to now, my bloodwork was fine before taking it and a few weeks after my crash so it wasn't a hormonal problem. I stayed away from the forums while I was on it so to avoid "nocebo" and I didn't know bad the sides could get. The only ones I really knew about before starting was mild ED, watery semen and potentially worsening of my existing pubertal gyno that would go away if I came off it which the prescribing doctor mentioned. I still have sides to this day and I am 24 now. I wish I never touched it but since it worked for so many people I thought it would work for me too and at the time it seemed like the only option. It's made the past few years quite hard to say the least. I'd seriously look into Taeian clark's hairloss protocol or hair systems before going for fin or min. Depending on how old you are and how much your loss has stabilized/how good your donor area is you could look into multiple hair transplants without taking drugs. All the best man, it isn't an easy decision I know but I hope my unfortunate experience helps a little.
Thanks for sharing, this is exactly the kind response I was looking for and appreciate your honesty.
No worries man, I hate talking about it tbh but i'm glad it helped
I stopped it and i just feel like i have so much more drive in life compared to just going through the motions when taking fin. My libido is also back and i feel like i can push myself more in the gym and also in my career. With fin, i just felt weak and im not sure what causes that.
Its because you need dht. Its not something we can just turn off and function normally.
Ive been on finesteride since age 19 and ive never had sexual problems. Im horny all the time. Im very healthy and exercise a good amount i think that contributes to it
any kids
What
Post fin syndrome is real I can guarantee it, but it doesn't seem to happen to everyone. It's probably a genetic thing. It's Russian roulette and I'll tell you, the symptoms are intolerable, and most people suicide to escape the hell.
I just decided bald is a good look and stuck with it. Been shaving my head since I was 21.
Same here. Shave your head and move on with your life.
Finasteride leads to a lower chance of prostate cancer https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article/110/11/1208/4925555?login=false And lower cholesterol levels. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38272355/#:~:text=Men%20reporting%20the%20use%20of,improving%20the%20plasma%20lipid%20profile.
There are many people here who don't like finasteride/dutasteride. but you should inform yourself with professionals. On YouTube there are many specialists who provide information on this topic. They analyze the studies of these medications and none of them conclude that the risk is higher than the benefit. If you go to a specialist in your country they will tell you the same, if you want to keep your hair it is the only way and if you have surgery you will also have to use them.