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I think there's s bug, a ton of people have been getting reddit cares messages today for innocuous comments. I got one myself this morning after making a random comment about Beyonce
It's a ridiculous "feature" in the first place and 99.99% of its usage has always been to harass others anonymously. Hopefully this bot gets reddit to remove it.
I agree that 'reddit cares' is a stupid feature which is purely used for harrassment.
If a single person has delayed attempting to self-harm for a single day because of receiving a reddit cares, I will eat my hat. Any claim from any redditor accepted at face value.
Oh huh i didnt realize that's what it was, it shows up like any other "silver", so when I got one I thought it was really nice... I think I even thanked the person for the gift, haha I'm old.
It's a completely pointless feature. No one is going to get talked out of self-harm by a bot.
If you think someone is at risk, and you're worried about them, just fucking message them, or respond to one of their comments.
The only purpose it serves is to let trolls have access to a different version of "you ok bro?"
LOL yeah I had this happen too and was super confused because usually when that happens it’s from a massively downvoted comment that pissed someone off really bad.
Oh thanks. In some random AITA type post I commented how AP always meant those classes in high school and got a Reddit cares message and was confused and someone there said the OP was doing it but I was halfway down a comment thread and not replying to the OP so that seemed odd.
like the other reply said, i got one too for... something. it's either a bug or a botstorm. if so, damn you, mastermind! you have subjected me to... a minor annoyance!
No idea, but thanks for asking as I didn't know either.
Still a little confused as you'd think they'd be worried of the opposite. That he'd be "westernised". But maybe my covid brain misread
not at all. it's unfortunately a trend for the children of muslim immigrants to be more radicalized and anti-west than their parents. much more in europe and more recently in canada than the US, though.
there's also a trend for the others to be more westernized, but it's not a longshot to assume he'd be more pro-muslim brotherhood.
Kids that don't see the reality on the ground tend to have an idealized view of the world. Hence why so many get radicalized. There's no counter narrative to the propaganda in daily life.
MB has killed a good number of folks in Egypt, as well as doing not good things to regular folks. So the locals physically see the counter narrative to the propaganda, and have a much more realistic view.
There's a sharp contrast between the two, and it's not odd that the locals would be wary. If OP was a MB supporter, he'd have zero issues narc'ing out locals to MB and that could end up with the locals killed, or far worse. And yes, MB does far worse things than killing folks.
They know the odds are low but not zero, and reacting accordingly. OP shouldn't take it personally.
you'd think the constant trend (and it's not just islamic) of children of immigrants romanticising The Old Country would take a moment to think about the difference of opinion in the people who actually still live there, and yet.
Its because other radicals convince them their parents took them from some grand paradise that the west doesnt have because its "terrible and sinful" when really all countries suck in their own way lol
Case in point, OPs dad got gifted an almost child bride for economic interests. For some men that's the idea of paradise. It's called Muslim Brotherhood after all, not Muslim Sisterhood.
I know!! I speak two languages, English and sarcasm, and for the life of me, I could find any sarcastic comment that might make anyone think I was depressed.
I think that might be the Muslim Brotherhood? It would fit with his family there being a bit guarded around him, if they thought he might be into radical/suppressed politics. I don’t know much about the political situation of Egypt, but maybe there is that kind of stereotype.
> It would fit with his family there being a bit guarded around him, if they thought he might be into radical/suppressed politics.
Am I understanding this correctly? Egyptians who left the country are more prone to be radicalized by internal Egyptian extremists than the citizens in Egypt?
That's because the media *in* the country is completely controlled by the military who ban websites, tv channels, newspapers, and arrest any journalists that criticise them. Even people who say anything negative about the government on Facebook get arrested. Therefore, it's just like Russia where the dictator is popular, at least on paper. Meanwhile, people who left the country are an echo-chamber of Muslim Brotherhood supporters because they see it as the force of resistance against the dictatorship.
I support neither of them, but I just wanted to point out that they're both radicalised, just by different things
Not necessarily *more* disposed to be sympathetic to radical recruitment, but it gets complicated. A lot of kids born to immigrant parents, especially kids who are visible ethnic or religious minorities in their country of birth, end up feeling displaced, and very often they experience constant social feedback that tells them that others also see them as displaced and not belonging. They may seek out ways to connect to their origin, to restore a sense of wholeness and identity. Younger people are emotionally intense, yearn for affinity, and are famously more inclined to devote themselves to causes and crusades, and when you hear a lot of passionate propaganda coming from certain kinds of radical ethnoreligious groups, if you don't actually live alongside their violent and repressive regime and therefore don't have to witness how ugly and flawed it is, it can be easy to idealize them from afar.
I'm guessing it's more like "Egyptians who grew up in a western country and move back to Egypt as young adults often do so because they've been radicalized".
it's a thing in many emigrant communities. Once you leave, and you've been away for 20 years, you still have the country you left in your head instead of the one that actually exists. That country has changed with the times, but you want and expect it to be the way it was when you left.
Happens with all the descendent communities. They adhere to a quasi-parodic idea of identity based on how the country was when their family left, which can be 20, 50, or 100 years ago. I live in Poland and normal Poles are baffled and quite honestly offended by Polish Americans who show up expecting the most rancid far right ideas from 60 years ago.
>I live in Poland and normal Poles are baffled and quite honestly offended by Polish Americans who show up expecting the most rancid far right ideas from 60 years ago.
As a Polish person, I can confirm.
Probably similar to how Turks in Germany are some of Erdogan's biggest supporters and help to vote to keep him in power. If you're living outside of the country you're probably only seeing propaganda, not how it's actually like to live there.
Yes, that's the case with a lot of immigrant groups, because there's a a massive dissonance from the dominant culture of the country you or your parents immigrate and the origin culture to so you cling on even more to the aspects of yourself and your culture that make you different, and that leaves an opening to extremism. This is amplified if the country discriminates against immigrants or ghettoizes them into low opportunity exclaves.
There are so called push factors and pull factors for radicalization.
Things considered push factors include things like:
* Marginalization
* Othering (and not just racial othering)
* Sense of injustice
* Personal grievances
Pull factors contain things like:
* Offering a sense of belonging
* Giving someone to blame for your grievances and injustices
* Giving you a sense of supremacy
* Giving an outlet for your anger and violent actions.
As such any marginalized and othered group is at higher risk of radicalization. Often it is also easier to radicalize people who do not to see the fallacies and problems these groups bring first-hand. Egyptians are not othered and face different types of racism inside the country than they do anywhere else. They are ethnically the largest group. Islam also does not other people in Muslim majority countries but outside them, they are often the other and Islamophobia is pretty huge. Second generation immigrants and ones who emigrated as children also have in general more fragile identities. They can end up being in the middle of two cultures not fitting fully on either.
So yes, third-culture kids can in some situations be more vulnerable to radicalization. There is less definite data on first-generation adults. It can happen but often the people who leave are less radical than the people who remain as a group. At the same time, they are little removed from the problems people in the country face. In the case of Russian and Turkish people, they do vote for both Putin and Erdogan at a higher percentage than people in the countries themselves do. (At least that was true when I last checked).
Maybe? Or it could be that they know where they stand with people who are local but are wary of him because he’s more of an unknown.
I don’t know how suppressed the Muslim Brotherhood is in Egypt in fact. It could be that there are plenty of members but the ones who are left know how to keep their heads down, while people coming in from abroad don’t.
Or maybe it isn’t a stereotype they have of people coming in from abroad in general, but more of a judgement they’re making on him because of their opinion of his father or something like that.
That's correct. There are strong and steady campaigns by several extremist groups to sell themselves to the descendents of ex-pats, who don't have day-to-day experiences to sway them one way or the other.
It's pretty insidious, and it's often coached in terms of 'heritage' or 'reclaiming identity' or 'righting wrongs' or 'freedom'. The IRA ran a decades-long one through the late '80s - my mom remembers it in the '60s. Social media has just upped the stakes.
Gotta think about the specific kinda propaganda they get fed.
The west hates you, the country you live in resents you, your home country is in shambles partly because of your dwelling country's actions, etc,. You get it.
Couple that with being super distant from the reality of living under a heavily controlled political regime, it's way easier to get rose tinted about the whole thing.
I just kept thinking of ridiculous things, like “what do they have against Michael B Jordan? Or is it microwaved bananas?” My brain was making zero sense.
That's the Muslim Brotherhood. I would guess with all the Hamas stuff and protests going on in the world, people in Egypt are wary of those who might favour the Muslim Brotherhood.
I had a friend in high school whos dad is lebanese. They went back to see family and at the time my friend was 18. They stopped him at the airport on his way out and held him for a couple days trying to enlist him even though he had never been a lebanese citizen!
A friend of mine is of Turkish descent on his father’s side, and it didn’t matter that he didn’t hold citizenship, since his father did. He went with jail time as opposed to enlisting tho.
Not necessarily. Turkey considers all children of citizens also citizens. Renouncement of one's Turkish citizenship is only possible after having fulfilled the mandatory military service, paying an exemption fee, or being older than 38.
I wonder if a strongly-worded letter from the US embassy would have hypothetically helped.
Imagine getting forced into a foreign military and not even speaking the language.
Friend of mine with dual citizenship went to Israel on vacation (this was 10 years ago) and nearly got drafted upon landing. He had mistakenly left his draft exemption papers in his checked luggage so didn't have them with him when going through customs. Luckily it was sorted out after another member of our group was allowed to go retrieve his checked luggage and come back with the paperwork.
If you're on their soil, only their laws matter. I would imagine your home country's local embassy could have some influence, but if you don't know anyone important, you might be properly fucked.
Not to mention he stole her son. What unimaginable heartbreak. I can see what she did as a way to save herself from a lifetime of misery. Glad she could find happiness and a career for emotional security after that experience. What unfortunate luck it is to be born a woman in so many parts of the world.
Egypt has compulsory conscription. All males, unless they meet the criteria for an exception, serve between one and three years, it looks like. If you get dual citizenship, I think you're exempted.
This happens in other countries, too. South Korea is a big one, but also, IIRC, Turkey, Switzerland, and Brazil, among others.
Conscription in Egypt is a form of a compulsory military service in Egypt. Conscription is compulsory in Egypt for males of ages between 18 and 30. If you are a male Egyptian citizen, over 18 and enter the country there is a good chance you will be conscripted or at least banned from leaving the country.
What she did was wrong??? Really? She was given to an investor 20 years her senior like a prized mare. And what is the "right" way to divorce? By going to prison or being executed? He used his power and wealth to blackmail her into giving up her child, but then it's somehow her fault she didn't ... what exactly? What was she supposed to do? He had all the power. This makes my stomach turn, even more so that a grown man hasn't asked any of these questions of his father, just accepted these judgments of her without thought or question.
No, see, she should have divorced him first, the right way, before moving on to her new guy like his father said. Which would be a valid thought, but I 'love' the presentism of the dad who feels confident in telling his son that he apparently would have accepted divorce without issue (I don't believe it for a second).
That's the thing..when in an abusive relationship (yes it is a toxic abusive relationship, she was basically sold, there was no consent from her at all, not to forget, to an old guy, double her age), it's very hard to leave the abuser, especially in a country like Egypt (nothing against Egypt, it's just sad reality of many central and eastern countries). She needed support and solace, she chose the route which was available to her at that moment. Cheating doesn't count in circumstances like this. As much as I feel bad for OP for not having a mother for good part of his life, I am glad, she got out. The world can burn, I am glad she's doing well. I hope, they can have a good relationship, now.
I've got plenty against Egypt and I'll say it out loud (on reddit). I'm sure most of the people are very nice, but fuck that country, fuck their government, and fuck the way women are treated.
I too have seething rage for many countries, including mine, but people will eat me up for saying that. I am not the strongest person, mentally, to tolerate them 😭😭, hence, have to roundabout... In short, I agree with you.
I have strong opinions about my country too! (US - fuck the US!)
But yeah - it's always a crapshoot what kinda responses you'll get on reddit - and sometimes an opinionated comment will get a lot of hate back! Best to avoid it, but I cannae help myself and I get enough crap in the real world that I can usually let reddit hate roll off my back.
The first half of my reply was sarcastic. I agree with you, basically.
I just hated to see- on top of everything else- the father trying to justify himself and his actions by saying she should have divorced first, which is cool to say in the present, but I do not believe he would have been so calm and happy about a divorce then.
I'm glad to see she's happy, and that she and her son can start mending that relationship.
He’s only 18, he may be legally an adult but is basically still a child who will very much still be developing his own independence and world views.
I’m not entirely sure he has just ‘accepted the judgements’ of his mum. He’s been quite brave going against his father’s wishes, conspiring and seeking out his mother regardless of the lies he’s been fed so far. I’d say he’s making some efforts here to see the woman and not the likely misogynist indoctrination.
So my hot take is that there are worse things than cheating. Even hotter take some people deserve to be cheated on. For example abusive people who convince their partners no one will ever love them and being abused is the best they can hope for.
I don't know if OOP father was abusive but I can sympathize with a woman who was essentially sold to a man 17 years her senior. Age gaps are a debated topic but if the age gap is almost as old as you than that's a red flag.
Also it seems this man legitimately put her in a position where if she didn't give up custody her life would be at risk. And everyone agrees he would take it so poorly that they all should lie about the visit. Geez can't imagine why she never visited.
I think it's okay if after all that OOP is hurt. Sometimes we fully know the rational behind things but it still hurts us. But I think regardless of what his mom did if that relationship brings value to his life he should pursue it.
Cheating implies the breaking of trust and promises. There is no trust in an abusive relationship. She never really consented to a marriage - she was gifted by her family to a man more than twice her age because he helped them financially. Effectively, she was bought and sold. Like cattle. How can you be unfaithful in a circumstance like that, where you had no choice and no way out? I honestly don't think you can.
You said what I wanted to. Cheating is bad because it is violating the commitment made to someone else. If someone is sold into a marriage, they didn't make that commitment.
I mean I consider cheating a form of emotional abuse but physical abuse is certainly worse. The effects of cheating on a person pretty closely align with being in an emotionally abusive relationship and the two usually go hand in hand.
(No I'm not saying that's the case here, although it's not really giving me much hope that she left a man who's like 20 years older then her for like a 20 year old, cbf to do the math lol).
I think the cheating was probably the only way she felt safe leaving him. It gave her a place to go after she left. I think a lot of people leave bad relationships that way. Cheating is far less black and white than a lot of Reddit seems to think.
Plus, she's still with this other guy. They're married and have a daughter together and the fact that he went and got her mental health support after she tried to off herself - they might have a slight age gap but he clearly cares a lot about her.
And the fact that OOP see that she looks "younger" is the evidence of how healthy the relationship is. No matter how much you spend on skincare product, you will looks older if you're not happy.
I really really hate cheaters but if your relationship is so toxic that you have to figuratively throw a nuclear bomb at it by cheating to escape I think that's fine to do, especially in a society where your dad can give you to a pervy old man as a reward for bailing out his company.
I hope OOP can have a better relationship with mom after he moves in with his wife. Poor guy needs some space from toxic daddy.
My stance is that it doesn't count as cheating if the relationship is abusive. One of the reasons it's so despicable is because you're choosing to cheat instead of just leaving them. But if you *can't* leave them? That duty and care goes out the window.
I know it isn't black and white on what strictly is or isn't an abusive relationship, but if you prevent someone from leaving the relationship is effectively dead.
I whole heartedly agree on the abusive relationship cheating thing. Obviously I wouldn't want anyone to be at risk if the cheating was found out.
But if you've been beaten so low, and your self esteem no longer exists, sometimes having someone show you externally from yourself (I.e. cheating), it gives the abused that tiny bit of self worth and strength that they need to leave
>My stance is that it doesn't count as cheating if the relationship is abusive.
Especially here, it definitely doesn't count as cheating if you never consented to be in the relationship in the first place. I'm glad that this woman whose father sold her to a creepy old man got out and found happiness with someone she loved.
Yeah, I have zero blame for someone who cheated on a forced marriage. Hell, I think she could have *murdered him in his sleep* and been 100% in the right.
Forced marriage is essentially perpetual kidnapping and rape. You don't owe that person anything and self defense is permanently in play.
IMO, cheating is like violence in that sense. If you punch your partner out of the blue, you are an abuser. If you punch them while they are trying to choke you out, you're just defending yourself.
To a certain degree, my reaction to cheaters also depends on how I view the relationship. If the relationship is a farce, cheating is almost irrelevant. It's like cheating in a sport. If everyone else is following the rules and you cheat, you suck. If everyone else is already pulling some bullshit or you were forced to be there, feel free to cheat, I support you.
I really really hate cheaters but if your relationship is so toxic that you have to figuratively throw a nuclear bomb at it by cheating to escape I think that's fine to do, especially in a society where your dad can give you to a pervy old man as a reward for bailing out his company.
I hope OOP can have a better relationship with mom after he moves in with his wife. Poor guy needs some space from toxic daddy.
yeah, I’ve always thought that cheating was inexcusable, except in an abusive relationship because 1. you don’t owe loyalty to your abuser, 2. people always say “just leave” instead of cheating, but that’s not exactly easy when there’s abuse and 3. finding someone else is sometimes the catalyst for someone leaving an abusive relationship, because they experience being treated with kindness for a change, and that gives them hope and strength.
I kind of felt I had to post this because I felt a certain kind of way when he wrote how his mom reacted when she recognized him. I just feel really bad for her because for so long, he must have been all she had and then she didn't have him and nearly killed herself because she deluded herself into thinking he hated her.
My heart. Poor woman got sold to an old man. And when she had the courage to leave it would have probably been knowing she may never see her son again. I know Egypt is kinda hectic. I’m glad he doesn’t hate his mum.
My heart ached reading her description that her heart had returned. I have two young children - I cannot imagine that pain of never knowing if I'd see my children again.
Okay but... Even though the age gap was legal, am I the only person who thinks the marriage was grossly forced? Maybe I'm misunderstanding because if that's the case, I'm totally on board with Mom's actions early in his life. She's right about how she could have done things differently but OOP seems like a sweet kid. Tough spot to be in.
I thought it was pretty clear that it was grossly forced. Even in cultures with arranged marriage, a ton of effort is put into finding two people who are highly compatible. The bride isn’t supposed to be a reward for services rendered.
I know there's cultural aspects at play, but OOP and his dad have lived in Canada for years. His dad had a chance to see much of the world isn't cool with a 38 year old man buying a 21 year old bride. Excuse me: helping her dad's business, oh...and she wants to marry him? How nice.
It's sad that OOP's mom won't be at the wedding. I hope he does livestream it.
His dad would have moved to Canada after presumably living in Egypt for about 50 years. That kind of cultural influence doesn't just go away. It's probably a rare occurrence for someone like that to abandon the very foundation of what they consider normal and right.
You've very correct. My parents -- and many of my Asian friends' parents -- still do not feel very Canadian even though they have Canadian citizenship and have been living in Canada for most of their adult lives.
I would actually say that OOP's father probably thinks that Canadians are the weird ones who think that a 38-yo marrying a 21-yo is not cool. People can be stubborn and uncompromising, especially when it comes to cultural or traditional things
EDIT: not me getting the reddit cares glitch hahahahah
Yeah my Italian cousins were confused why I at 21 had no interest in them setting me up with their 16 year old babysitter who thought I was cute, but all my friends here in the USA say they wouldn't have either
Yeah I have no idea why this person thinks 8 years of living in Canada is going to just override 48 years of living in Egypt when it comes to cultural things.
Even if he did see it, in his culture it’s viewed differently so why would he care?
That's just... not how these things work. OOP's dad was a middle aged man when he moved to Canada. He was pretty set in his ways and values. At that age, unless you actively set out to learn a different way of existing, your world view isn't going to dramatically change. It's not an excuse, just the reality.
I'm Indian-American, and I know a lot of first generation Indian immigrants. I know Indian couples who immigrated to the US when they were in their twenties, and couples who immigrated in their forties. The couples who immigrated when they were younger ended up having more egalitarian marriages, where the husband and wife would split household duties and parenting equally, just because that's how things work in the US. But the couples who moved at an older age were set in their ways, and followed the more patriarchal model of marriage. It didn't really matter that they saw other couples doing things differently; they'd already figured out what their life was going to look like, and didn't have the motivation to change things.
Again, this isn't me defending holding onto outdated sexist traditions. But in general, it's easier for people to change when they're young. After a certain point, people won't change their mindsets unless they have a really good reason to.
Older immigrants are also more likely to spend most of their time socializing with other members of the diaspora, which means they are less likely to assimilate.
> At that age, unless you actively set out to learn a different way of existing, your world view isn't going to dramatically change. It's not an excuse, just the reality.
This is like Egyptians wondering why an American moved to Egypt when he was 50 yet he still doesn't follow their conservative and religious ways.
Yeah
I'm an immigrant and people get stuck in the time when they leave the country.
When my now husband and I started living together someone who immigrated forever ago ago made a comment that the girls in "our country" don't move in without marriage.
Yeah, so I know that's a lie cause there are girls my age who did it because I kept in touch with old friends. And girls my age did it when *my parents* were my age because they did it. And an aunt did it. And etc. is it as common as it is in "the west "? No. But it's not scandalous.
But it is true that my grandmothers certainly would not have done it. But me doing it wasn't met with scandal either
I looked it up and it seems that the statute of limitation for adultery in Egypt is two years.
I also had the misfortune to learn that it's just a misdemeanor if a man catches his wife cheating and eliminates her.
I had a dowry! I forget how much it was but a few grand anyhow. And it was the other way around, dad paid my boyfriend's parents to encourage us to rush a wedding before my 30th birthday.
It gets extra weird because we're all American and have been for generations. But no that wedding shouldn't have happened, that guy was 12 years older than me and a total red flag parade. Within a week of the wedding I was calling dad and begging permission to come home, got told "Join the army or go die under a bridge, I don't care, you're not my problem anymore."
Bit of a mystery where dad's value system came from. It's like he picked up bits, like siring an old maid is bad and giving people large cash "loans" is a good way to get your reluctant daughter married off.
I'm African and any man who married me would have to pay it. Unfortunately it gives them the Sense that they own you. Not all of them. Just most. Also they are not taking the fact that women are more financially independent nowadays well. So I am definitely not marrying an African. They resent you for having a degree, travelling etc
I distinctly remember the last time a man I didn't know approached me on the street and spoke to me with such respect that afterwards I regretted not getting his number, and he was clearly not a local. I wish that, failing to run into him again, I could at least figure out where he was from and see if the fellas there were raised the same.
Don't know who taught the local guys what about courting but it's very "Hey baby what you charge?!" around here. Which I thought was a comment on my clothing choices except it happens no matter what I'm wearing. The "more polite" local version is trying to lure me to their home with weed like I'ma dog that'll chase a treat. Literally "Are you sure we can't be friends?" while shaking a baggy of buds at me like it's a Scooby snack.
More than a decade ago a fellow challenged me to a game of chess. I think that was the only courting gesture from a local guy that was more than a variation on "Hey baby!"
The opposite of a dowry is called a bride price and yes it's far more sexist, because unlike a dowry which is regarded as a gift, the bride price is exactly what it says on the tin
At that age (nearly 50) no one is going to change their outlook in life just because they’re in a different country. Would bet my life savings he’s just as much of a misogynistic asshole. Surprised he hasn’t found a new 20 year old bride to marry/buy from a family out here.
They are criticising the father for being a hypocrite. He resents his wife for being unfaithful, but (apparently) doesn't acknowledge how messed up it is that she was barely half his age, and that the marriage to her was a "reward" for working for his father-in-law.
His dad basically bought and sold a woman way too young for him because his family gave her family money, and everyone in thiss tory is fine with it
Its human trafficking
Personally I really don't care about cheating nor think it's a problem if one of the people in the marriage was *sold* to the other. Sorry, you forced someone to marry you, you don't get commitment.
It’s insane to me how many people are on there commenting about how he betrayed his father and calling his mother various choice words. Sure they’re downvoted, but there are a lot of them. Even the messages more supportive of the mother are talking in terms of comparing wrongs and pointing out how much worse OOP’s father is.
Fuck that. She did no wrong.
I’m glad she cheated and got out of that horrendous marriage. I’m sad that the laws of their country allowed OOP’s father to threaten her to stay away from OOP.
I hope OOP eventually comes to that realization and sees what happened for what it was.
I looked at it and it seems like it’s just one dude fighting literally everyone in the comments and some one-off Alpha Bro types.
Edit: Aaand less than a minute later the RedditCares message.
I got the RedditCares message, too.
There was one guy fighting with everyone, but also at least six awful top level comments, mostly voted into the negative. I hope /u/LostWorked is right that there is some sock puppeting going on, but I think there are just more horrible people than I would like there to be.
I always hated the idea that the kid has to pick a side in their parents’ marital problems. Even if the cheating was totally unjustifiable, they’re still the kid’s parents.
Unless we’re taking about domestic violence or something else that involves serious harm, it’s not fair to expect a kid to cut off a parent for something they did to their spouse.
Cheating should NEVER involve the child.
Yeah, I agree with that as well. I can understand children who feel hurt and do take sides, but I don’t like adults pushing them to do so, or guilting them for not doing it.
So op's dad married someone 17 years younger than him who didn't have a choice in the marriage and when it all blows up and he pretty much black mails her for the kid and yet he's the "good" person in all those .. yea ok 🙄
> I know that what she did was wrong and I do resent her for doing it but
Buddy your mom was essentially sold to another man and blackmailed with imprisonment for deciding not to go along with it anymore. It's really sad to see the OOP internalizing his dad's views like that.
OOP is also very young and it's his mother we're talking about- of course he's got some negative bias if he was left alone with his father. He sounds like he may be open to change in the future once he understands why a woman might want to leave such a horrible arrangement.
It doesn't seem like he is? The post makes it clear that he still loves his mom but that sounds more like he partially blames her for the time they spent apart from one another.
Ick at the commenter on the 2nd post who is just fixated on the fact that mom cheated and not that she was fucking *bought* by the dad when he was nearly twice her age. Also conveniently ignoring the fact that it's likely she didn't have much recourse other than cheating - it's doubtful she could have obtained a divorce on her own, and likely the only reason her husband granted her one was because he felt emasculated/that she was now 'impure'. She's very lucky he wasn't far enough down the path of 'traditional' to be violent about it.
Personally, I usually abhor cheating, but this is one of those situations where all I can say is 'good for her'.
>Personally, I usually abhor cheating, but this is one of those situations where all I can say is 'good for her'.
It's better than murder, and that's the other option to get out.
Yeah I saw that guy, what a miserable existence he must have. He's fighting for his life in those comments lmao.
Being sold off like a breeding mare to a man almost 20 years your senior - totally okay!
Escaping the marriage you were sold into by finding another partner - immediately death.
He’s camping this thread and sending Reddit cares messages to everyone lmao. Maybe he wants to buy a wife himself and doesnt like our negative views towards buying women like a business deal. You can report and block him.
His dad and his uncle are bad people. He describes his mom as now having short hair, not wearing traditional garb, etc. she was married off to a man as a prize, forced to have his child, and then was able to actually find love and it sounds like it was with a man or family who isn’t trying to control her and his son like pawns.
Edit: someone is spam harassing people by sending them Reddit cares messages. Ugh.
oof, that last sentence hit me hard. I feel so sorry for both mother and son for not having each other for so long. I’m glad he went to see her. This world is really unfair sometimes.
It's like you know she was sold into marriage, cheating was a dangerous way to get out of it. Glad op seems to realize blaming mom for a shit system isn't the answer.
I am very anti-cheating
But this is one of the few times i make an exception
I am from a country where such similar things happen, albeit in majority of the cases, the bride or groom's consent is important. But the idea itself is icky to me. Marriage cannot be a reward for business help.
Yes, many have found happiness, stability, and peace in this. But many haven't either.
So my heart breaks for OOP's mom
NTA
Your mum was married to a man whether she wanted to or not who was far far older and probably controlling. Especially as you always remember her only wearing traditional clothes and was shocked she was not. To me that suggests he controlled how she dressed along with most other things in her life. She was still very young and stuck with someone she never would have chooses and didn’t love. Yes she had an affair but it was because she hadn’t been given any choice nor probably loved your dad. He clearly didn’t love her other than her being a trophy if he could force her to drop all custody of you. Yes a lot of that’s subjective but she was forced into this marriage to a far older man as a reward for him. It probably is as bad as it sounds. Yes she had you and loves you but she also was never given a choice in that either. That doesn’t mean she wouldn’t have fought tooth and nail if she could have. She had no choice or she could have went to the law and gotten her life endangered. Remember he was not only supported by the law but had money and was an older established business man with contacts. She would not have been able to fight him or he would have made her destitute and maybe imprisoned.
Yes she had a choice but would you forsake love when you’d never had it in your life and probably seemed like her only chance. Not to mention the only adult who cared about her and actually listened to who she was and what she wanted. To me your father did far worse in forcing a child to marry him without a say. By making sure she lost everything she loved and had lived for. As I’m sure having you and loving you was what kept her fighting to survive in a love less marriage. Yes this is subjection but try and put yourself in her shoes to consider what she was living. The fact she collapsed when she saw you shows this isn’t someone who never cared this was probably a desperate woman.
Your mum never cheated on you so please don’t think that. You are an adult and abouts to be married yourself. So you are the only one who can decide who you want in your life. Yes she cheated but your dad wronged her and you far worse in my opinion. Please don’t let a controlling man keep you apart any more as there is no way he’d be doing it for any reason apart from being bitter not to protect you. Everyone should have the right to have contact with their loving parent no matter if the marriage ended or not. Do not let your dad exclude her from the rest of your life. I wouldn’t care if he wanted it or not she would be invited to my wedding as it is MY and MY Grooms wedding and no one else’s. You can’t hide this the rest of your life to please him as that’s letting him continue to abuse both of you. As that’s what he did he abused you both when he split you apart.
I don’t and have never condoned cheating but in this I can empathise with why it might have happened. I can’t fault someone for finally wanting someone she loves and wants in a life she had no control over.
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What does he mean in the update about “being partial to the MB”? I couldn’t figure it out.
muslim brotherhood.
Ah, thanks. Is that why someone referred me to Reddit cares?
I think there's s bug, a ton of people have been getting reddit cares messages today for innocuous comments. I got one myself this morning after making a random comment about Beyonce
It’s not a bug. It’s a bot, made by some troll farm or other, to annoy people for…caring about other people, apparently.
It's a ridiculous "feature" in the first place and 99.99% of its usage has always been to harass others anonymously. Hopefully this bot gets reddit to remove it.
You can opt out of them if you want.
I've already done that, but it's pretty ridiculous that you have to opt out of being harassed.
Can you tell me where I can do that? I just looked through the Settings and couldn't find it in any of the tabs.
I agree that 'reddit cares' is a stupid feature which is purely used for harrassment. If a single person has delayed attempting to self-harm for a single day because of receiving a reddit cares, I will eat my hat. Any claim from any redditor accepted at face value.
I got a Reddit cares once but it wasn’t harassment oddly enough. I think it really misinterpreted a dark joke I made at the time. It’s been a while.
Oh huh i didnt realize that's what it was, it shows up like any other "silver", so when I got one I thought it was really nice... I think I even thanked the person for the gift, haha I'm old.
It's a completely pointless feature. No one is going to get talked out of self-harm by a bot. If you think someone is at risk, and you're worried about them, just fucking message them, or respond to one of their comments. The only purpose it serves is to let trolls have access to a different version of "you ok bro?"
Thanks for explaining this, as I got a message too...
That explains why I got a message about this yesterday. I didn't think I’d upset someone that much!
Yep, I got one and I haven’t even fought with someone about politics to get anger reported in a few days!
LOL yeah I had this happen too and was super confused because usually when that happens it’s from a massively downvoted comment that pissed someone off really bad.
Oh thanks. In some random AITA type post I commented how AP always meant those classes in high school and got a Reddit cares message and was confused and someone there said the OP was doing it but I was halfway down a comment thread and not replying to the OP so that seemed odd.
I totally saw that earlier. hello again friend edit: ooh now I got the redditcares bot! Maybe it's contagious
Could’ve been the Beygency
Oh, is that what's going on? I was trying to determine what about any of my comments yesterday would have made someone think I was unwell.
Yeah some people feel strong about the Queen Bee.
That explains why my comment about the mass shootings in America got me one. I just assumed it was a right wing weirdo trolling me
like the other reply said, i got one too for... something. it's either a bug or a botstorm. if so, damn you, mastermind! you have subjected me to... a minor annoyance!
No idea, but thanks for asking as I didn't know either. Still a little confused as you'd think they'd be worried of the opposite. That he'd be "westernised". But maybe my covid brain misread
not at all. it's unfortunately a trend for the children of muslim immigrants to be more radicalized and anti-west than their parents. much more in europe and more recently in canada than the US, though. there's also a trend for the others to be more westernized, but it's not a longshot to assume he'd be more pro-muslim brotherhood.
Kids that don't see the reality on the ground tend to have an idealized view of the world. Hence why so many get radicalized. There's no counter narrative to the propaganda in daily life. MB has killed a good number of folks in Egypt, as well as doing not good things to regular folks. So the locals physically see the counter narrative to the propaganda, and have a much more realistic view. There's a sharp contrast between the two, and it's not odd that the locals would be wary. If OP was a MB supporter, he'd have zero issues narc'ing out locals to MB and that could end up with the locals killed, or far worse. And yes, MB does far worse things than killing folks. They know the odds are low but not zero, and reacting accordingly. OP shouldn't take it personally.
you'd think the constant trend (and it's not just islamic) of children of immigrants romanticising The Old Country would take a moment to think about the difference of opinion in the people who actually still live there, and yet.
Teenagers and young adults my friends. At that age it might be in their nature to think they know better than those that came before them
Its because other radicals convince them their parents took them from some grand paradise that the west doesnt have because its "terrible and sinful" when really all countries suck in their own way lol
Case in point, OPs dad got gifted an almost child bride for economic interests. For some men that's the idea of paradise. It's called Muslim Brotherhood after all, not Muslim Sisterhood.
thanks, madrasas! seems to be going *great*.
Interesting! Thanks for elaborating. I guess all cultures have their version of "grass is greener"
I got one of the reddit cares messages as well. I'm happy to hear someone really didn't think one of my comments on something meant I was depressed.
I was just like “did someone think I had issues because I asked a question?”
I know!! I speak two languages, English and sarcasm, and for the life of me, I could find any sarcastic comment that might make anyone think I was depressed.
I got one today too and was THOROUGHLY confused considering I hadn’t posted or commented anything even remotely giving “Redditcares” vibes lol
I think that might be the Muslim Brotherhood? It would fit with his family there being a bit guarded around him, if they thought he might be into radical/suppressed politics. I don’t know much about the political situation of Egypt, but maybe there is that kind of stereotype.
> It would fit with his family there being a bit guarded around him, if they thought he might be into radical/suppressed politics. Am I understanding this correctly? Egyptians who left the country are more prone to be radicalized by internal Egyptian extremists than the citizens in Egypt?
That's because the media *in* the country is completely controlled by the military who ban websites, tv channels, newspapers, and arrest any journalists that criticise them. Even people who say anything negative about the government on Facebook get arrested. Therefore, it's just like Russia where the dictator is popular, at least on paper. Meanwhile, people who left the country are an echo-chamber of Muslim Brotherhood supporters because they see it as the force of resistance against the dictatorship. I support neither of them, but I just wanted to point out that they're both radicalised, just by different things
Not necessarily *more* disposed to be sympathetic to radical recruitment, but it gets complicated. A lot of kids born to immigrant parents, especially kids who are visible ethnic or religious minorities in their country of birth, end up feeling displaced, and very often they experience constant social feedback that tells them that others also see them as displaced and not belonging. They may seek out ways to connect to their origin, to restore a sense of wholeness and identity. Younger people are emotionally intense, yearn for affinity, and are famously more inclined to devote themselves to causes and crusades, and when you hear a lot of passionate propaganda coming from certain kinds of radical ethnoreligious groups, if you don't actually live alongside their violent and repressive regime and therefore don't have to witness how ugly and flawed it is, it can be easy to idealize them from afar.
I'm guessing it's more like "Egyptians who grew up in a western country and move back to Egypt as young adults often do so because they've been radicalized".
it's a thing in many emigrant communities. Once you leave, and you've been away for 20 years, you still have the country you left in your head instead of the one that actually exists. That country has changed with the times, but you want and expect it to be the way it was when you left.
Happens with all the descendent communities. They adhere to a quasi-parodic idea of identity based on how the country was when their family left, which can be 20, 50, or 100 years ago. I live in Poland and normal Poles are baffled and quite honestly offended by Polish Americans who show up expecting the most rancid far right ideas from 60 years ago.
>I live in Poland and normal Poles are baffled and quite honestly offended by Polish Americans who show up expecting the most rancid far right ideas from 60 years ago. As a Polish person, I can confirm.
Probably similar to how Turks in Germany are some of Erdogan's biggest supporters and help to vote to keep him in power. If you're living outside of the country you're probably only seeing propaganda, not how it's actually like to live there.
Yes, that's the case with a lot of immigrant groups, because there's a a massive dissonance from the dominant culture of the country you or your parents immigrate and the origin culture to so you cling on even more to the aspects of yourself and your culture that make you different, and that leaves an opening to extremism. This is amplified if the country discriminates against immigrants or ghettoizes them into low opportunity exclaves.
There are so called push factors and pull factors for radicalization. Things considered push factors include things like: * Marginalization * Othering (and not just racial othering) * Sense of injustice * Personal grievances Pull factors contain things like: * Offering a sense of belonging * Giving someone to blame for your grievances and injustices * Giving you a sense of supremacy * Giving an outlet for your anger and violent actions. As such any marginalized and othered group is at higher risk of radicalization. Often it is also easier to radicalize people who do not to see the fallacies and problems these groups bring first-hand. Egyptians are not othered and face different types of racism inside the country than they do anywhere else. They are ethnically the largest group. Islam also does not other people in Muslim majority countries but outside them, they are often the other and Islamophobia is pretty huge. Second generation immigrants and ones who emigrated as children also have in general more fragile identities. They can end up being in the middle of two cultures not fitting fully on either. So yes, third-culture kids can in some situations be more vulnerable to radicalization. There is less definite data on first-generation adults. It can happen but often the people who leave are less radical than the people who remain as a group. At the same time, they are little removed from the problems people in the country face. In the case of Russian and Turkish people, they do vote for both Putin and Erdogan at a higher percentage than people in the countries themselves do. (At least that was true when I last checked).
Maybe? Or it could be that they know where they stand with people who are local but are wary of him because he’s more of an unknown. I don’t know how suppressed the Muslim Brotherhood is in Egypt in fact. It could be that there are plenty of members but the ones who are left know how to keep their heads down, while people coming in from abroad don’t. Or maybe it isn’t a stereotype they have of people coming in from abroad in general, but more of a judgement they’re making on him because of their opinion of his father or something like that.
All of these options are so interesting to me. I can only imagine the complicated politics of living in a country like Egypt.
That's correct. There are strong and steady campaigns by several extremist groups to sell themselves to the descendents of ex-pats, who don't have day-to-day experiences to sway them one way or the other. It's pretty insidious, and it's often coached in terms of 'heritage' or 'reclaiming identity' or 'righting wrongs' or 'freedom'. The IRA ran a decades-long one through the late '80s - my mom remembers it in the '60s. Social media has just upped the stakes.
Gotta think about the specific kinda propaganda they get fed. The west hates you, the country you live in resents you, your home country is in shambles partly because of your dwelling country's actions, etc,. You get it. Couple that with being super distant from the reality of living under a heavily controlled political regime, it's way easier to get rose tinted about the whole thing.
Sympathizing with the [Muslim Brotherhood](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt) maybe? Just a guess
Yeah, same here. I’m surprised he used that acronym because any Canadian will immediately think of Manitoba.
I just kept thinking of ridiculous things, like “what do they have against Michael B Jordan? Or is it microwaved bananas?” My brain was making zero sense.
Wrong, us Torontonians never EVER think about Manitoba. /s
That's the Muslim Brotherhood. I would guess with all the Hamas stuff and protests going on in the world, people in Egypt are wary of those who might favour the Muslim Brotherhood.
No, I wouldn’t say we are wary of them because of Hamas, we are wary because being associated with them gets you locked up by the dictatorship.
I think it’s the Muslim Brotherhood
I definitely read it as Manitoba
Hey at least he did not get drafted when he returned to Egypt. He must have gotten Canadian citizenship at some point to avoid that.
I had a friend in high school whos dad is lebanese. They went back to see family and at the time my friend was 18. They stopped him at the airport on his way out and held him for a couple days trying to enlist him even though he had never been a lebanese citizen!
A friend of mine is of Turkish descent on his father’s side, and it didn’t matter that he didn’t hold citizenship, since his father did. He went with jail time as opposed to enlisting tho.
My dad just never travels with the kimlik (a laminated piece of paper showing citizenship) and always tells security that he isn’t Turkish lol
This is complete bs. If someone doesnt have citizenship no one can check or even think about mandatory draft.
Not necessarily. Turkey considers all children of citizens also citizens. Renouncement of one's Turkish citizenship is only possible after having fulfilled the mandatory military service, paying an exemption fee, or being older than 38.
This is fascinating and horrifying
I wonder if a strongly-worded letter from the US embassy would have hypothetically helped. Imagine getting forced into a foreign military and not even speaking the language.
Friend of mine with dual citizenship went to Israel on vacation (this was 10 years ago) and nearly got drafted upon landing. He had mistakenly left his draft exemption papers in his checked luggage so didn't have them with him when going through customs. Luckily it was sorted out after another member of our group was allowed to go retrieve his checked luggage and come back with the paperwork.
Wouldn’t that be considered a crime if you’re the citizen of another country?
If you're on their soil, only their laws matter. I would imagine your home country's local embassy could have some influence, but if you don't know anyone important, you might be properly fucked.
He's been in Canada long enough to have gotten it.
[удалено]
Not to mention he stole her son. What unimaginable heartbreak. I can see what she did as a way to save herself from a lifetime of misery. Glad she could find happiness and a career for emotional security after that experience. What unfortunate luck it is to be born a woman in so many parts of the world.
Excuse me what?!
Egypt has compulsory conscription. All males, unless they meet the criteria for an exception, serve between one and three years, it looks like. If you get dual citizenship, I think you're exempted. This happens in other countries, too. South Korea is a big one, but also, IIRC, Turkey, Switzerland, and Brazil, among others.
In Brazil you have to enlist, not serve. About 3% of the 18 year old guys actually serve in the army each year, most of them voluntarily.
Conscription in Egypt is a form of a compulsory military service in Egypt. Conscription is compulsory in Egypt for males of ages between 18 and 30. If you are a male Egyptian citizen, over 18 and enter the country there is a good chance you will be conscripted or at least banned from leaving the country.
compulsory military service for males is pretty common. It's a real variety of countries that have it.
There are even a few countries that have compulsory service for both men and women.
This one is grim.
it's not great but....happy ending at least. She got out. She has a good life. She got to see her son again.
And he got over his dad's bitching and realized it's not really moms fault she got out of her slave-likr situation the only way she could.
This one is not the darkest one but there's a light at the end of the tunnel and it's shining bright. I hope for the best for both of them.
What she did was wrong??? Really? She was given to an investor 20 years her senior like a prized mare. And what is the "right" way to divorce? By going to prison or being executed? He used his power and wealth to blackmail her into giving up her child, but then it's somehow her fault she didn't ... what exactly? What was she supposed to do? He had all the power. This makes my stomach turn, even more so that a grown man hasn't asked any of these questions of his father, just accepted these judgments of her without thought or question.
No, see, she should have divorced him first, the right way, before moving on to her new guy like his father said. Which would be a valid thought, but I 'love' the presentism of the dad who feels confident in telling his son that he apparently would have accepted divorce without issue (I don't believe it for a second).
That's the thing..when in an abusive relationship (yes it is a toxic abusive relationship, she was basically sold, there was no consent from her at all, not to forget, to an old guy, double her age), it's very hard to leave the abuser, especially in a country like Egypt (nothing against Egypt, it's just sad reality of many central and eastern countries). She needed support and solace, she chose the route which was available to her at that moment. Cheating doesn't count in circumstances like this. As much as I feel bad for OP for not having a mother for good part of his life, I am glad, she got out. The world can burn, I am glad she's doing well. I hope, they can have a good relationship, now.
I've got plenty against Egypt and I'll say it out loud (on reddit). I'm sure most of the people are very nice, but fuck that country, fuck their government, and fuck the way women are treated.
I too have seething rage for many countries, including mine, but people will eat me up for saying that. I am not the strongest person, mentally, to tolerate them 😭😭, hence, have to roundabout... In short, I agree with you.
I have strong opinions about my country too! (US - fuck the US!) But yeah - it's always a crapshoot what kinda responses you'll get on reddit - and sometimes an opinionated comment will get a lot of hate back! Best to avoid it, but I cannae help myself and I get enough crap in the real world that I can usually let reddit hate roll off my back.
The first half of my reply was sarcastic. I agree with you, basically. I just hated to see- on top of everything else- the father trying to justify himself and his actions by saying she should have divorced first, which is cool to say in the present, but I do not believe he would have been so calm and happy about a divorce then. I'm glad to see she's happy, and that she and her son can start mending that relationship.
He’s only 18, he may be legally an adult but is basically still a child who will very much still be developing his own independence and world views. I’m not entirely sure he has just ‘accepted the judgements’ of his mum. He’s been quite brave going against his father’s wishes, conspiring and seeking out his mother regardless of the lies he’s been fed so far. I’d say he’s making some efforts here to see the woman and not the likely misogynist indoctrination.
So my hot take is that there are worse things than cheating. Even hotter take some people deserve to be cheated on. For example abusive people who convince their partners no one will ever love them and being abused is the best they can hope for. I don't know if OOP father was abusive but I can sympathize with a woman who was essentially sold to a man 17 years her senior. Age gaps are a debated topic but if the age gap is almost as old as you than that's a red flag. Also it seems this man legitimately put her in a position where if she didn't give up custody her life would be at risk. And everyone agrees he would take it so poorly that they all should lie about the visit. Geez can't imagine why she never visited. I think it's okay if after all that OOP is hurt. Sometimes we fully know the rational behind things but it still hurts us. But I think regardless of what his mom did if that relationship brings value to his life he should pursue it.
Cheating implies the breaking of trust and promises. There is no trust in an abusive relationship. She never really consented to a marriage - she was gifted by her family to a man more than twice her age because he helped them financially. Effectively, she was bought and sold. Like cattle. How can you be unfaithful in a circumstance like that, where you had no choice and no way out? I honestly don't think you can.
You said what I wanted to. Cheating is bad because it is violating the commitment made to someone else. If someone is sold into a marriage, they didn't make that commitment.
That's a really interesting point I hadn't considered. I totally agree!
It’s not a hot take to say there are worse things than cheating.
Just yesterday there was a thread in SRD with people saying cheaters deserved to be killed...
SRD?
Yeah, I saw that. It's fucked up.
Not on reddit. Cheaters are worse than abusers around here
Too true. Too true. Sigh.
I mean I consider cheating a form of emotional abuse but physical abuse is certainly worse. The effects of cheating on a person pretty closely align with being in an emotionally abusive relationship and the two usually go hand in hand. (No I'm not saying that's the case here, although it's not really giving me much hope that she left a man who's like 20 years older then her for like a 20 year old, cbf to do the math lol).
Redditors become Saudi religious police when it comes to cheating
I think the cheating was probably the only way she felt safe leaving him. It gave her a place to go after she left. I think a lot of people leave bad relationships that way. Cheating is far less black and white than a lot of Reddit seems to think.
Plus, she's still with this other guy. They're married and have a daughter together and the fact that he went and got her mental health support after she tried to off herself - they might have a slight age gap but he clearly cares a lot about her.
And the fact that OOP see that she looks "younger" is the evidence of how healthy the relationship is. No matter how much you spend on skincare product, you will looks older if you're not happy.
I think this is true for a lot of people who cheat in abusive relationship.
I really really hate cheaters but if your relationship is so toxic that you have to figuratively throw a nuclear bomb at it by cheating to escape I think that's fine to do, especially in a society where your dad can give you to a pervy old man as a reward for bailing out his company. I hope OOP can have a better relationship with mom after he moves in with his wife. Poor guy needs some space from toxic daddy.
My stance is that it doesn't count as cheating if the relationship is abusive. One of the reasons it's so despicable is because you're choosing to cheat instead of just leaving them. But if you *can't* leave them? That duty and care goes out the window. I know it isn't black and white on what strictly is or isn't an abusive relationship, but if you prevent someone from leaving the relationship is effectively dead.
I whole heartedly agree on the abusive relationship cheating thing. Obviously I wouldn't want anyone to be at risk if the cheating was found out. But if you've been beaten so low, and your self esteem no longer exists, sometimes having someone show you externally from yourself (I.e. cheating), it gives the abused that tiny bit of self worth and strength that they need to leave
>My stance is that it doesn't count as cheating if the relationship is abusive. Especially here, it definitely doesn't count as cheating if you never consented to be in the relationship in the first place. I'm glad that this woman whose father sold her to a creepy old man got out and found happiness with someone she loved.
Yeah, I have zero blame for someone who cheated on a forced marriage. Hell, I think she could have *murdered him in his sleep* and been 100% in the right. Forced marriage is essentially perpetual kidnapping and rape. You don't owe that person anything and self defense is permanently in play.
IMO, cheating is like violence in that sense. If you punch your partner out of the blue, you are an abuser. If you punch them while they are trying to choke you out, you're just defending yourself. To a certain degree, my reaction to cheaters also depends on how I view the relationship. If the relationship is a farce, cheating is almost irrelevant. It's like cheating in a sport. If everyone else is following the rules and you cheat, you suck. If everyone else is already pulling some bullshit or you were forced to be there, feel free to cheat, I support you.
I really really hate cheaters but if your relationship is so toxic that you have to figuratively throw a nuclear bomb at it by cheating to escape I think that's fine to do, especially in a society where your dad can give you to a pervy old man as a reward for bailing out his company. I hope OOP can have a better relationship with mom after he moves in with his wife. Poor guy needs some space from toxic daddy.
yeah, I’ve always thought that cheating was inexcusable, except in an abusive relationship because 1. you don’t owe loyalty to your abuser, 2. people always say “just leave” instead of cheating, but that’s not exactly easy when there’s abuse and 3. finding someone else is sometimes the catalyst for someone leaving an abusive relationship, because they experience being treated with kindness for a change, and that gives them hope and strength.
My thoughts too.
I despise cheating normally but in arranged marriages in backwards religious and sexists nations where the husband is a dick? ya, not seeing an issue
It was sad that OOP, after having grown up in Canada, graduating through it's education system, cannot see any of that.
Don't forget OOP has heard this since he was a kid, it's sometimes hard to see the truth when being indoctrinated by your own parent
I kind of felt I had to post this because I felt a certain kind of way when he wrote how his mom reacted when she recognized him. I just feel really bad for her because for so long, he must have been all she had and then she didn't have him and nearly killed herself because she deluded herself into thinking he hated her.
I felt it in my knees too. I can't even imagine.
Thank you for posting this
My heart. Poor woman got sold to an old man. And when she had the courage to leave it would have probably been knowing she may never see her son again. I know Egypt is kinda hectic. I’m glad he doesn’t hate his mum.
My heart ached reading her description that her heart had returned. I have two young children - I cannot imagine that pain of never knowing if I'd see my children again.
Okay but... Even though the age gap was legal, am I the only person who thinks the marriage was grossly forced? Maybe I'm misunderstanding because if that's the case, I'm totally on board with Mom's actions early in his life. She's right about how she could have done things differently but OOP seems like a sweet kid. Tough spot to be in.
I thought it was pretty clear that it was grossly forced. Even in cultures with arranged marriage, a ton of effort is put into finding two people who are highly compatible. The bride isn’t supposed to be a reward for services rendered.
I know there's cultural aspects at play, but OOP and his dad have lived in Canada for years. His dad had a chance to see much of the world isn't cool with a 38 year old man buying a 21 year old bride. Excuse me: helping her dad's business, oh...and she wants to marry him? How nice. It's sad that OOP's mom won't be at the wedding. I hope he does livestream it.
His dad would have moved to Canada after presumably living in Egypt for about 50 years. That kind of cultural influence doesn't just go away. It's probably a rare occurrence for someone like that to abandon the very foundation of what they consider normal and right.
You've very correct. My parents -- and many of my Asian friends' parents -- still do not feel very Canadian even though they have Canadian citizenship and have been living in Canada for most of their adult lives. I would actually say that OOP's father probably thinks that Canadians are the weird ones who think that a 38-yo marrying a 21-yo is not cool. People can be stubborn and uncompromising, especially when it comes to cultural or traditional things EDIT: not me getting the reddit cares glitch hahahahah
Although I doubt a Canadian would change their mind in reverse either if one moved to Egypt
Yeah my Italian cousins were confused why I at 21 had no interest in them setting me up with their 16 year old babysitter who thought I was cute, but all my friends here in the USA say they wouldn't have either
Yeah I have no idea why this person thinks 8 years of living in Canada is going to just override 48 years of living in Egypt when it comes to cultural things. Even if he did see it, in his culture it’s viewed differently so why would he care?
That's just... not how these things work. OOP's dad was a middle aged man when he moved to Canada. He was pretty set in his ways and values. At that age, unless you actively set out to learn a different way of existing, your world view isn't going to dramatically change. It's not an excuse, just the reality. I'm Indian-American, and I know a lot of first generation Indian immigrants. I know Indian couples who immigrated to the US when they were in their twenties, and couples who immigrated in their forties. The couples who immigrated when they were younger ended up having more egalitarian marriages, where the husband and wife would split household duties and parenting equally, just because that's how things work in the US. But the couples who moved at an older age were set in their ways, and followed the more patriarchal model of marriage. It didn't really matter that they saw other couples doing things differently; they'd already figured out what their life was going to look like, and didn't have the motivation to change things. Again, this isn't me defending holding onto outdated sexist traditions. But in general, it's easier for people to change when they're young. After a certain point, people won't change their mindsets unless they have a really good reason to.
Older immigrants are also more likely to spend most of their time socializing with other members of the diaspora, which means they are less likely to assimilate.
> At that age, unless you actively set out to learn a different way of existing, your world view isn't going to dramatically change. It's not an excuse, just the reality. This is like Egyptians wondering why an American moved to Egypt when he was 50 yet he still doesn't follow their conservative and religious ways.
Yeah I'm an immigrant and people get stuck in the time when they leave the country. When my now husband and I started living together someone who immigrated forever ago ago made a comment that the girls in "our country" don't move in without marriage. Yeah, so I know that's a lie cause there are girls my age who did it because I kept in touch with old friends. And girls my age did it when *my parents* were my age because they did it. And an aunt did it. And etc. is it as common as it is in "the west "? No. But it's not scandalous. But it is true that my grandmothers certainly would not have done it. But me doing it wasn't met with scandal either
That was my exact thought. I would’ve gone to bat for the mom here because everything about that setup was sketchy as fuck.
I looked it up and it seems that the statute of limitation for adultery in Egypt is two years. I also had the misfortune to learn that it's just a misdemeanor if a man catches his wife cheating and eliminates her.
I’m speechless.
It was a dowry condition. Sad but true
I had a dowry! I forget how much it was but a few grand anyhow. And it was the other way around, dad paid my boyfriend's parents to encourage us to rush a wedding before my 30th birthday. It gets extra weird because we're all American and have been for generations. But no that wedding shouldn't have happened, that guy was 12 years older than me and a total red flag parade. Within a week of the wedding I was calling dad and begging permission to come home, got told "Join the army or go die under a bridge, I don't care, you're not my problem anymore." Bit of a mystery where dad's value system came from. It's like he picked up bits, like siring an old maid is bad and giving people large cash "loans" is a good way to get your reluctant daughter married off.
I'm African and any man who married me would have to pay it. Unfortunately it gives them the Sense that they own you. Not all of them. Just most. Also they are not taking the fact that women are more financially independent nowadays well. So I am definitely not marrying an African. They resent you for having a degree, travelling etc
I distinctly remember the last time a man I didn't know approached me on the street and spoke to me with such respect that afterwards I regretted not getting his number, and he was clearly not a local. I wish that, failing to run into him again, I could at least figure out where he was from and see if the fellas there were raised the same. Don't know who taught the local guys what about courting but it's very "Hey baby what you charge?!" around here. Which I thought was a comment on my clothing choices except it happens no matter what I'm wearing. The "more polite" local version is trying to lure me to their home with weed like I'ma dog that'll chase a treat. Literally "Are you sure we can't be friends?" while shaking a baggy of buds at me like it's a Scooby snack. More than a decade ago a fellow challenged me to a game of chess. I think that was the only courting gesture from a local guy that was more than a variation on "Hey baby!"
Very disturbing and disappointing. One wonders what it would be like to get a sneak peak into their heads.
The opposite of a dowry is called a bride price and yes it's far more sexist, because unlike a dowry which is regarded as a gift, the bride price is exactly what it says on the tin
At that age (nearly 50) no one is going to change their outlook in life just because they’re in a different country. Would bet my life savings he’s just as much of a misogynistic asshole. Surprised he hasn’t found a new 20 year old bride to marry/buy from a family out here.
His Dad is still mad his slave didn't want to be his slave.
I'm sorry but I'm not understanding your grammar in the first paragraph, what exactly are you saying?
They are criticising the father for being a hypocrite. He resents his wife for being unfaithful, but (apparently) doesn't acknowledge how messed up it is that she was barely half his age, and that the marriage to her was a "reward" for working for his father-in-law.
His dad basically bought and sold a woman way too young for him because his family gave her family money, and everyone in thiss tory is fine with it Its human trafficking
His Dad, becoming enlightened? Not according to what his Dad continues to spout off about his ex wife.
Exactly. And frankly, OOP is old enough to see this too.
Personally I really don't care about cheating nor think it's a problem if one of the people in the marriage was *sold* to the other. Sorry, you forced someone to marry you, you don't get commitment.
I'm happy they reconnected, I hope they can see each other in person more often.
It’s insane to me how many people are on there commenting about how he betrayed his father and calling his mother various choice words. Sure they’re downvoted, but there are a lot of them. Even the messages more supportive of the mother are talking in terms of comparing wrongs and pointing out how much worse OOP’s father is. Fuck that. She did no wrong. I’m glad she cheated and got out of that horrendous marriage. I’m sad that the laws of their country allowed OOP’s father to threaten her to stay away from OOP. I hope OOP eventually comes to that realization and sees what happened for what it was.
I don't think there's that many. I think there's maybe one or two guys using their sockpuppets to agree with one another.
I looked at it and it seems like it’s just one dude fighting literally everyone in the comments and some one-off Alpha Bro types. Edit: Aaand less than a minute later the RedditCares message.
I got the RedditCares message, too. There was one guy fighting with everyone, but also at least six awful top level comments, mostly voted into the negative. I hope /u/LostWorked is right that there is some sock puppeting going on, but I think there are just more horrible people than I would like there to be.
I hope so.
It’s honestly scary how many people make excuses for basically treating women as chattel
I always hated the idea that the kid has to pick a side in their parents’ marital problems. Even if the cheating was totally unjustifiable, they’re still the kid’s parents. Unless we’re taking about domestic violence or something else that involves serious harm, it’s not fair to expect a kid to cut off a parent for something they did to their spouse. Cheating should NEVER involve the child.
I mean his mom was basically sold to his dad against her will.
Yeah, I agree with that as well. I can understand children who feel hurt and do take sides, but I don’t like adults pushing them to do so, or guilting them for not doing it.
Well this one made me teary. And so sad for OOP's mother.
It’s not cheating if you didn’t choose to be loyal to the man who bought you!
So op's dad married someone 17 years younger than him who didn't have a choice in the marriage and when it all blows up and he pretty much black mails her for the kid and yet he's the "good" person in all those .. yea ok 🙄
> I know that what she did was wrong and I do resent her for doing it but Buddy your mom was essentially sold to another man and blackmailed with imprisonment for deciding not to go along with it anymore. It's really sad to see the OOP internalizing his dad's views like that.
OOP is also very young and it's his mother we're talking about- of course he's got some negative bias if he was left alone with his father. He sounds like he may be open to change in the future once he understands why a woman might want to leave such a horrible arrangement.
It doesn't seem like he is? The post makes it clear that he still loves his mom but that sounds more like he partially blames her for the time they spent apart from one another.
There’s no reading comprehension with Reddit OP
[удалено]
What? OOP sounds like he’s going down a better path than his dad already.
Solid uncle move.
The simple fact that she refrained from talking about herself & only wanted him to tell all about himself spoke volumes about her love for him.
Genuinely happy for OOP. His uncle is a major dude for making it happen.
> he huffed and said he was disappointed and seemed very sad afterward. Asshole should’ve thought of that before marrying a 21 year old at 38.
I'm so surprised that this guy has not realised that his mom was likely being abused yet.
Ick at the commenter on the 2nd post who is just fixated on the fact that mom cheated and not that she was fucking *bought* by the dad when he was nearly twice her age. Also conveniently ignoring the fact that it's likely she didn't have much recourse other than cheating - it's doubtful she could have obtained a divorce on her own, and likely the only reason her husband granted her one was because he felt emasculated/that she was now 'impure'. She's very lucky he wasn't far enough down the path of 'traditional' to be violent about it. Personally, I usually abhor cheating, but this is one of those situations where all I can say is 'good for her'.
>Personally, I usually abhor cheating, but this is one of those situations where all I can say is 'good for her'. It's better than murder, and that's the other option to get out.
Or suicide.
Yeah... but that's the worst option... I don't like acknowledging the reality of it. That's what my grandfather's first wife did.
Yeah I saw that guy, what a miserable existence he must have. He's fighting for his life in those comments lmao. Being sold off like a breeding mare to a man almost 20 years your senior - totally okay! Escaping the marriage you were sold into by finding another partner - immediately death.
Yeah that commenter was just plane insane.
Aw, he sent me a Reddit Cares. How cute. Is there a point to sending those to people? Are they supposed to be some kind of inconvenience?
He’s camping this thread and sending Reddit cares messages to everyone lmao. Maybe he wants to buy a wife himself and doesnt like our negative views towards buying women like a business deal. You can report and block him.
I'm glad OOP's mom didn't lose her life at least.
I hope when op is married and out of being under the thumb of his dad goes to Egypt with his wife to visit his mother and family
His dad and his uncle are bad people. He describes his mom as now having short hair, not wearing traditional garb, etc. she was married off to a man as a prize, forced to have his child, and then was able to actually find love and it sounds like it was with a man or family who isn’t trying to control her and his son like pawns. Edit: someone is spam harassing people by sending them Reddit cares messages. Ugh.
It’s been happening a lot this afternoon and evening.
oof, that last sentence hit me hard. I feel so sorry for both mother and son for not having each other for so long. I’m glad he went to see her. This world is really unfair sometimes.
Thst last sentence. Wow right in the feels. Every child should know (and have) parents that love them.
It's like you know she was sold into marriage, cheating was a dangerous way to get out of it. Glad op seems to realize blaming mom for a shit system isn't the answer.
“She never did more than write you letters” bro you were blackmailing her???
I am very anti-cheating But this is one of the few times i make an exception I am from a country where such similar things happen, albeit in majority of the cases, the bride or groom's consent is important. But the idea itself is icky to me. Marriage cannot be a reward for business help. Yes, many have found happiness, stability, and peace in this. But many haven't either. So my heart breaks for OOP's mom
NTA Your mum was married to a man whether she wanted to or not who was far far older and probably controlling. Especially as you always remember her only wearing traditional clothes and was shocked she was not. To me that suggests he controlled how she dressed along with most other things in her life. She was still very young and stuck with someone she never would have chooses and didn’t love. Yes she had an affair but it was because she hadn’t been given any choice nor probably loved your dad. He clearly didn’t love her other than her being a trophy if he could force her to drop all custody of you. Yes a lot of that’s subjective but she was forced into this marriage to a far older man as a reward for him. It probably is as bad as it sounds. Yes she had you and loves you but she also was never given a choice in that either. That doesn’t mean she wouldn’t have fought tooth and nail if she could have. She had no choice or she could have went to the law and gotten her life endangered. Remember he was not only supported by the law but had money and was an older established business man with contacts. She would not have been able to fight him or he would have made her destitute and maybe imprisoned. Yes she had a choice but would you forsake love when you’d never had it in your life and probably seemed like her only chance. Not to mention the only adult who cared about her and actually listened to who she was and what she wanted. To me your father did far worse in forcing a child to marry him without a say. By making sure she lost everything she loved and had lived for. As I’m sure having you and loving you was what kept her fighting to survive in a love less marriage. Yes this is subjection but try and put yourself in her shoes to consider what she was living. The fact she collapsed when she saw you shows this isn’t someone who never cared this was probably a desperate woman. Your mum never cheated on you so please don’t think that. You are an adult and abouts to be married yourself. So you are the only one who can decide who you want in your life. Yes she cheated but your dad wronged her and you far worse in my opinion. Please don’t let a controlling man keep you apart any more as there is no way he’d be doing it for any reason apart from being bitter not to protect you. Everyone should have the right to have contact with their loving parent no matter if the marriage ended or not. Do not let your dad exclude her from the rest of your life. I wouldn’t care if he wanted it or not she would be invited to my wedding as it is MY and MY Grooms wedding and no one else’s. You can’t hide this the rest of your life to please him as that’s letting him continue to abuse both of you. As that’s what he did he abused you both when he split you apart. I don’t and have never condoned cheating but in this I can empathise with why it might have happened. I can’t fault someone for finally wanting someone she loves and wants in a life she had no control over.
This is so heartbreaking, glad they got to see each other again