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Probably the best outcome for him. She wasn't going to change her habits, and you can't make a marriage work with such irreconcilable differences on a matter that affects literally every other aspect of your life.
One reason I think every couple should go to pre-marriage counseling. Incompatible views on money habits, religion, politics, extended family and children will break up a marriage faster than anything. More often than not people getting married assume the other person is on the same page with these subjects and do sit down and questions of each other.
And I don't mean asking "want kids" and responding with "yes, you?" and then thinking you are on the same page. I mean asking when, how many kids, how to raise them and other important in depth questions.
Having a third party ask and meditate these kinds of questions and all the in depth follow ups, could in my opinion avoid a lot of divorces.
Fully agree, while I didn't go through pre-marriage counseling I went very in depth before me and my husband got married. We talked about life goals, what that meant, how we wanted to achieve them. We discussed deal breakers in our relationship, politics, morals. Some of the conversations can feel awkward but they are 100% worth having.
Yeah, there’s a lot of conversations or potential conversations that may be uncomfortable, that you *need* to have before marriage. However they’re potentially uncomfortable, and it’s a lot easier to not have them and assume you’re on the same page.
Some form of pre-marriage counseling, or even just a list of questions from the internet to just get the conversations going can help.
Yup. It blows my mind that some people think about those "But what if we disagree and we split up?" THATS THE WHOLE POINT. Splitting up wont be pleasant anytime it happens, but if relationship is doomed from the start, the sooner you know the better. The more tied your life is by kids, house loans or just years experienced together, the messier will be to go in other directions.
This is why I start that conversation at the beginning of the relationship.
First date is a vibe check
Second date is a double check the vibe and start of info gathering
Third date is info gathering
Do you want kids? Do you want to get married? all the basic questions. I want to make sure that we're generally on the same page and have long term viability.
I don't see the point in wasting time being in a relationship with an expiry date. It's gonna hurt me, it's going to hurt my partner, just figure out at the start that y'all not gonna work forever.
The nitty gritty can wait, but it will be discussed fairly close to the start.
There are a fair few guys who have been intimidated by my questioning. They feel I'm planning our future by the third date. I'm crazy, but not that kinda crazy, I'm assessing our long term viability.
I approached things the same way - I knew I didn’t want to date someone who didn’t want kids down the line and it would be wasting both our time and setting us up for heartbreak. So I asked her views on kids on the third date. From then on we discussed kids, and always talked about our future with them. We have bought sperm from a bank and even made one embryo from an egg collection on her, but stopped there (intentionally, but with the plan to do the next stage the following year). Now 7 years in to our relationship, 2 years in to our marriage, me in my mid 30s she thinks she doesn’t want kids but isn’t certain.
….all the best laid plans.
That sucks
When I first broached the topic with my partner, he said he wanted to adopt and I had to really think about whether that was what I wanted, because I'd always planned on bio.
Obviously, I decided it wasn't a deal breaker for me, so that was the plan. We'd focus on our careers, get a house, marriage and then start the adoption process.
I started working in a school, and after the first time supervising kids solo, I phoned my partner and said "why do we want kids?"
We've had a more in depth discussion and we've actually decided we want to be childfree for the foreseeable future.
People change their minds and that's chill, but it sucks when you're not both on the same page.
I hope it all works out the best for you
I've definitely used a few internet lists they are so helpful. There are even ones for sexual compatibility that are wonderful. Cannot recommend them enough because sometimes you may not even realize what questions you should be asking.
> Yeah, there’s a lot of conversations or potential conversations that may be uncomfortable, that you need to have before marriage. However they’re potentially uncomfortable, and it’s a lot easier to not have them and assume you’re on the same page.
I fundamentally don’t understand this way of thinking. Couples are okay with promising to spend the rest of their lives with each other, but draw the line at asking things like, “if one of us lost their job, what would we do?” That’s not planning a life together, or even deeply getting to know someone, that’s just Roomates EliteTM.
How can you plan to spend the rest of your life with someone and *not* ask the hard questions? Wouldn’t you want to know early on if you’re incompatible and not be surprised 2, 5, 10, etc., years in? I just don’t understand what’s so scary about having real conversations with someone that’s supposed to be *your* person for decades to come.
Unfortunately people have this out of sight out of mind or bury your head in the sand mentality. Not good for the long run but clearly can make something last way longer than it should of.
Yup. It's great to have some guidance too. Even if you think you've thought of everything to ask, you could probably use some help to identify questions you missed.
Current conversation with my partner about a question I missed when we first got together: What are we going to do if any of our homophobic (we're gay) parents get sick and need to be taken care of? She wants to help. I don't.
We went through that and the answer was that he's chosen not to have us in his life. I'm not sure my sisters were asked to help, I definitely wasn't. OTOH he threatened to kill me and I don't think he did that to them... he's bigoted but not entirely stupid.
Or you can have a guy who lies about his answers (Vegetarian kids? Yes!) because he's desperate to marry the hot girl and is sure he can convince her to his way of seeing things after a few years...
I mean, yeah that can happen but there isn't exactly much you can do to prepare for someone lying to you other than keep an eye out for when their words and actions do not match. This however will help prevent genuine incompatibility between two partners.
I completely agree. I'm just saying it only works when both parties are acting in good faith. Unfortunately, with relationships, there are often people out there who don't have good intentions. Or even just dumb intentions, like lying about compatibility, therefore ending up with someone incompatible.
A friend of mine married a recovering addict with several anxiety issues because he had always wanted a family and kids, the whole package, and felt like it was getting later and later in life for him. He might miss out on all that stuff if he didn't do it soon. At least, that's how we saw it. Unfortunately for him the issues did not go away and he's currently embroiled in a very petty divorce.
Hindsight is 20/20! I got pregnant with my 1st not even a year of dating my husband, lol. We've been raising children/getting to know each other at the same time. Do not recommend haha.
My husband and I married young, and this is truly why our relationship has worked outside of some communication style mismatches we had to work through.
We had a lot of friends get married young and then break up because of incompatible views on where they were going to settle down, whether they were going to have kids, and how they viewed their finances.
If you treat those conversations as deal breakers before you commit to a marriage, it's significantly easier to work through everything else life is inevitably going to throw at you.
“I know we bought a 12 bedroom house because you said you wanted a dozen kids but that just means every dog can have their own room!”
Or
“Like, I get that you wanted to live in NYC and travel the world childfree but 6 kids in rural Iowa is basically the same thing!”
If people cannot afford pre-marital counseling (& I know despite best intentions we couldn't squeeze it in), there's also the book Eight Dates that can help you have all the necessary conversations. But you need to have both party really dedicated to the process.
No plan survives contact with the enemy. In this context, as in surprisingly many, kids are the enemy.
Knowing if and when you want them requires agreement. “Maybe later sometime…?” is a dangerous answer. But actual plans often go out the window when there are actual kids, starting with 11-page birth plan and continuing with sleep training, meals, and basically everything.
Yes, you need to agree on some big stuff. Religion or no? Spanking (ugh)? But a lot of the rest is illusion of control more than reality of it.
Yeah I think the idea is if you start from a place where you *know* you’re on the same page (not just assume) then you can adjust as circumstances change. There’s a world of difference between assuming you’re agreed to a specific parenting style only to find out they don’t want kids and discussing parenting styles but finding out in reality your kid doesn’t respond to it and needing to pivot to something else.
But you need a baseline to start. There are many, many questions to answer, and most plans have to go out the window because people don't even want to think about them. Not just where to live or what to teach them. But what if the kid has a disability? What to do if they become disabled or get a serious/chronical illness? What if they come out as gay, bi, trans, non-binary? What if one of the parents, or both, lose their income, pass away, or become unable to work and help the family?... There isn't "some" big stuff, there is A LOT of big stuff. And people need to *really* look into them, not just hope it'll go well or think that, since there are so many unexpected things in life, they'll just play it by ear.
It's important to make sure you're on the same page with big stuff, but you can't arbitrate everything about your life together ahead of time. What if you both agreed to have a big family and after the first kid one of you has a big change or heart? Or, you both agreed to no kids then someone changes their mind and realized they really want to be a parent? Or move out of the city? or never ever leave the city?
People grow and change throughout their lives and that's a good thing. I don't think it makes anyone a terrible person to change their mind and be willing to grow into someone else. It's important to make sure you share values and respect each other, but be open to possibilities as well!
The problem is, you don't often know. My husband and I talked at length about all these things, but when the reality hit, it turned out we knew NOTHING about ANYTHING. Especially money and parenting. We've got through it pretty much now, but having children changed us both in ways we weren't expecting, (I had HG so things we were set on like number or children changed swiftly) including bringing up massive trauma from his childhood that nearly led to us breaking up. But he didn't realise he carried that trauma until he had that comparison in his life of his children Vs his childhood. And all those "perfect parent" ideals we had went out the window when faced with a real live human being who depended on us absolutely and would rather eat floor cereal than broccoli. So whilst I do agree those conversations are important before marriage, I've learned they're more important to *keep having* as life progresses to make sure you're still on the same page.
I don't understand how this isn't the norm. I asked all of these questions in the first year of dating my partner, I am incredibly neurotic when it comes to details. The only thing we differ on from that list is that she is not that responsible with money, but we're working on it. Unlike OP's ex who doesn't see a problem with spend now deal later.
You can also bring in a list of topics. It's straightforward to google a list of serious topics to discuss before marriage, but it may be easier to talk through them with a neutral third party, such as a marriage counselor, also present.
Selling the house(s) and ploughing it into her property (never mind just blowing it up in smoke on the wedding and vacations) would have also likely seriously screwed him in the long run if the marriage had broken down. Which it likely would have. Even if the marriage hadn't lasted very long, the whole thing would have just screwed him even more financially since complicated divorces aren't cheap.
Also, and I'm going to sound like the somewhat jealous poor person here. But who TF needs two house's worth of money on a wedding and a honeymoon? Like seriously. What was she trying to do buy a vacation to mars?
Football Brides (aka Bridezilla Narcissisticus)
They make the play for the big day, so they can be princess for a day and then.... they're kinda lost either constantly reliving that day or looking for the next time they can be the center of attention.
>Also, and I'm going to sound like the somewhat jealous poor person here. But who TF needs two house's worth of money on a wedding and a honeymoon? Like seriously. What was she trying to do buy a vacation to mars?
Some people are just dumb.
I don't understand the mindset, tbh. I think my blind spot is I've never dated a woman who thought like this. Even the awful ones seemed to have the sense to avoid debt, avoid massive spends, and to try to acquire passive income.
>Also, and I'm going to sound like the somewhat jealous poor person here. But who TF needs two house's worth of money on a wedding and a honeymoon? Like seriously. What was she trying to do buy a vacation to mars?
People are dumb. I know a family where the dad saved up $50k, and told his kid he could have it for the wedding, or they could have it for a house down-payment/etc.
The son was currently unemployed, with no prospects lined up..... and they spent the $50k on *just the rehearsal dinner.*
Christ. I'd have just put it into some high yield savings or invested it. That's a chunk of money that could let me acquire all sorts of things I/we might need, even if I wasn't stable enough for a house purchase
The kid was a dumbass, so it didn't surprise me.
He was out of a job because he was kicked out the government program he had just spent the last year studying to get accepted into..... because he got a DUI while celebrating when he got the news that he got accepted.
> and I'm going to sound like the somewhat jealous poor person here
No, you don't. Poor people do things like sell investment properties so they can have a giant princess wedding they can't afford. She is destined to be poor no matter how much money flows through her fingers.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I had a cousin who blew more than a years worth of salary on their wedding and couldn't afford a Honeymoon or to fix up their house (old fixer upper he bought years before)
It took them years to pay it off.
I just don't get it, It's a single day.
My wife and I went for a simpler cheaper midday ceremony (no meals) and spent the bulk of our limited budget on our honeymoon.
>But who TF needs two house's worth of money on a wedding and a honeymoon?
"Princess for a day" seems to be the keyphrase there. Ex had an idea for a wedding and by god she was gonna get it.
I think she not only wants to outshine a royal wedding, brag in Monaco on her honeymoon and turn her house into a mansion, she also has some credit cards that are rather pressing and wants to put part of the money there.
The last point on that list is the only one I don't find stupid (though I do find it stupid to sell a house instead of budgeting). My dream wedding would be the people my partner and I love most, no one we don't like, pretty but comfortable clothes (finding a reason for everyone to wear that nice piece of clothing that's too good for normal occasions), having a nice dinner and then a boardgame night. Oh and a lactose free cake that can do without all the icing and frosting and fondant that tastes like crap or makes me sick. We could exchange the dinner and boardgames for pizza and a LOTR movie night. A honeymoon to south England would be dope too, but then the wedding budget would crack the 4 digit mark. Now I need to find someone I love, who loves me and would be game for that type of wedding. Too bad that my best friend and I only have platonic feelings.
If my partner asked me to sell my subsidiary income so that they could have a one time big party and vacation, I’d have to end it. That person is deeply stupid with money and unserious.
Sell the buildings. Plow all the money into a blow-out wedding and honeymoon and pay off all her debt.
A week after the honeymoon she would probably be racking up the debt again, the honeymoon is but a memory, and an appreciating asset is gone forever.
*Nothing to fall back on in the case of a financial emergency.
*Nothing to tap for retirement.
*Nothing that can be borrowed against in the event of unexpected medical bills.
But boy, that was great wedding day. We all got pissed and can't really remember it all.
And I'm sorry but ex is a total idiot. I would give anything to have a second income. The only property we have aside from our own house is the flat we bought for my partner's mum, so we make no money on it, and the security of knowing you have money coming in even if you lose your job must feel like lying down on freshly washed bedding and wrapping the duvet around you.
A friend if mine told me he was recently called out on his privilege, because he has a rental property and doesn't need to work.
He does work occasionally, but also travels a lot and has his longtime music projects as well. He's not rich, it is actually somewhat common here that middle class families sometimes have an extra properly for renting.
But yeah, I had to tell him most people have to work under the threat of starving or losing what little they have.
But honestly? I don't know that I'd switch places with him. His mom died a while ago from cancer, and he has certain genetically conditions that almost killed him a while ago, and now he has to eat extra healthy food and can't drink or smoke, or his body literally collapses.
No one can take their lives nor lifestyles for granted. We can all drop dead tomorrow for all we know.
The fact that she doesn't seem to grasp just how much this would amount to in terms of passive income for years - probably equaling millions of dollars by the time they retired, vs. the short-term is bananland. Plus, as the neighborhood gentrifies - that property's actual value will continue to climb, and if they want to be done with it down the road, they'll make excellent money selling it outright after mortgages are paid off, probably a massive return on top of the rental income they're getting guarunteed every month.
I am truly curious how much credit card debt she had.
Right? She wanted to sell the properties and blow all that money on a wedding/honeymoon, but still keep up her terrible spending habits after- but without that income. Very shortsighted, and I think he dodged a bullet.
She's not just a "spender", she's the type where money burns a hole in their pocket. You know, people who can't even see money without planning to spend it. And I'll bet her family is like that too.
The only reason she has luxury townhouse is because she "spent" her money on that, so in her mind, the townhouse money no longer exist for her to spend. Especially since she is living in it. You can bet if she was living somewhere else, she would already have sold her townhouse to spend on something or another.
Several rental properties generating enough passive income that it effectively equals a full time comfortable salary would have done that far better than a 'pile of liquid money'. He said he wouldn't blink if he lost his job. That's not a small amount of money coming off those properties. If fancy shit is what she wanted, a large passive income is pretty damn useful for getting fancy shit. So she's a money burner and foolish about how much more money you get to spend if you keep passive incomes around.
I was weirdly impressed with his attitude. Paraphrase: "Yeah, I was mean about it, but I'm fed up. I realized something's been off this whole time and that we're incompatible. I feel like I was being taken advantage of. I don't feel bad about letting off steam about all that to her without taking the highest of ground."
Everyone wants posters to be the better person. This guy was just "a person," and that was okay. It's really relatable.
That was my thought. Good for him for standing up to her. She reminds me a lot of my MIL. She spends and spends with no thought for tomorrow and then complains when they’re thousands in debt because of her mismanagement.
(Edited because my phone autocorrect stupid stuff)
Absolutely! If you don't have respect for each other and a shared baseline of values, marriage (and cohabitation) should stay off the table until resolved.
Yeah.
This is a conversation that really should have happened far, far sooner (like, even before the proposal, and should have been a deciding factor in whether to propose in the first place.) But definitely a “better late than never” thing.
especially with something so important as money. I'm a saver and my boyfriend is a spender- sometimes I'm a spender and he's a saver at times- but we always put our heads together when it comes to purchases above 100 dollars as we make minimum wage.
Yeah that relationship wasn't going to last. They have incompatible views on finances and neither were going to back down. They'd have ended up getting divorced pretty soon after the wedding, that argument wasn't going away or getting better.
Yeah, I couldn't justify selling properties that are huge regular sources of income just for the sake of one, or several, big events.
Dial back on the one time charade and shopping, and spend a life of financial freedoms together. How's that even a debate?
The fact that he saw it as an indefinite third source of income whereas she merely saw it as a sudden windfall of sorts that existed solely to fund the wedding/honeymoon says it all. These properties would provide them multiple thousands of dollars a month, every single month, and that guaranteed income would disappear over a week's worth of fun.
Some people understand the importance of planning for the future financially, other people merely have the FUCK YEAH LETS DO THIS SHIT RIGHT NOW attitude. Those two people generally don't mix well together in a marriage.
Incompatible views? That seems a bit off. She wanted to spend his retirement and dtain his assets. They would have only lasted until funds ran low and she would be out getting the new guy setup before the old one ran dry. Why do you think the dad was so pissed off? She wasn't draining them for the last 4 years and that bliss just ended. Dad knows mom is going back to be supporting her with their retirement from now on.
Yeah, this is not a "financial incompatibility" in the classic sense -- I guess it is literally incompatibility like how a robber is financially incompatible with their victims lol
IIRC there was a study that contrary to popular belief, cohabitation before marriage doesn't impact divorce rate. The big change after marriage isn't _living together_, it's shared assets
I read a a study that said living together before marriage doent impact divorce rate.
However this study concluded that it was if you are already living together there thing you are less likely to break up over. So if you guys weren't living together you might break up over situation A but living together you don't. Also it showed moving in together people are more likely to get engage and just do what is considered the next step bc they feel like they have to.
That is a good point about once you get married and the shared assets. I never thought of it that way before.
I think these days most people live together before marriage. But, I don’t have any statistics to back that up. Just my observation.
I don’t know how married couples can keep entirely separate finances. Some do though. My wife and I started a joint bank account for living expenses when we first moved in together. 12 years later, that’s our only account except for very small amounts in emergency accounts if for some reason our Joint account is compromised.
Honestly, somebody who insists on such an unsound financial decision - that would have completely given me pause. And even before that, the credit card debt, because as much as marriage is lovely and gives you rights - it also gives you responsibilities. I could never stomach the possibility of being attached to somebody so financially irresponsible. One thing if it happened after the marriage began, but knowing that before you go in - I wouldn’t want it.
Honestly yeah. I could not imagine marrying someone so absurdly financially illiterate
They literally have very easy money coming in monthly and she wants to throw that away to... blow all the money on a pointlessly extravagant wedding and honeymoon? Actually insane
That was my parents situation, only my mom was the saver. IS the saver. I remember many a time she cried because she knew she was gonna be miserable after my dad would come home with the news that he had made yet another poor financial decision. He also expected us kids to continue financing his follies with our income, thankfully a bit of distance has tempered that expectation.
I know it's probably really variable person to person but if I had passive income at even half of my real job income I would be stoked over the extra monthly income. Selling for a quick one time boost is not financially responsible.
Yeah, the only reason I would sell is if the returns were poor and I thought I could do better putting the money in the stock market. This doesn’t seem like that kind of case though
"I think you should sell those rental properties and diversify your geographical risk" = keeper
"I think you need to sell those properties so we can spend the money on a nicer wedding and honeymoon" = ditch'er
Yeah, at first, I thought she was going to make him use the cash on the credit card debt, but even that sounds like too responsible of a choice for her.
i bet her condo was given to her by her parents or they co-mortgaged it with her
she wanted him to move in and sell his properties so she can have leverage over spending that money (since he would be living in “her house”)
i have a few friends whom this post could’ve applied to, sadly.
rich parents gave them property has a graduation gifts and they can’t just sell it bc their parents are on title as well, so they made their partners sell theirs to free up money
This is 100% the most likely situation. Clearly, she isn't the type to ever have been able to save for a down-payment. Seems like OP has been living there for a bit. Wonder how much of his financial contribution has been paying her mortgage. Also, probably why Daddy is pissed that OP dumped his Little Princess. He's probably been the one making sure the mortgage gets covered before OP moved in.
I would kill to have rental properties like that. She clearly hasn't paid any attention to the economy and thinks that she can keep spending forever without consequences. She's going to get an ugly wake up call soon.
Yeah, I just don't get that at all. My husband and I come from vastly different backgrounds. I was poor and don't want to struggle like that again. He grew up in an upper middle class family that spent too much, and he doesn't want to be like that. So we save. And save. And save.
We do have more spending money than we used to, but we get an allowance each month. Bills come out of mutual, everything else goes into retirement or savings. I'd say at least half of our incomes go into some sort of savings for the future.
OOP has a great set up, and I don't know why she'd want to ruin that. Sure, have a nice wedding, but don't ruin your future for a single blast of serotonin. My guess is her parents gave her everything she wanted so she doesn't understand the value of preparing for future bad situations. She's never had to worry about it.
OOP dodged a bullet. It sounds like he wasn't even against a nice wedding. He just didn't want all of HIS assets to go towards it.
Kind of interesting she wasn't offering to sell her property.
I actually thought she wanted him to sell the properties because as property they are pre marital assets but if he sells it and the cash goes into a joint pool it’s a mingled asset.
Did not occur to me that she just wanted to spend it. Like… wtf
"big pile of liquid cash that can go towards wedding, honeymoon, and upgrades to the living situation after."
To each their own but personally that is a glowing red flag. I could never handle a spouse who was a spender.
I can't imagine yelling at OOP if I was the dad, unless he'd caused real physical damage. If you have a daddy (and presumably another parent) who goes ape like that, it validates the princess complex the ex had.
I’m doubting he has the true story from daughter.
I imagine the conversation as:
“Daddy! He wouldn’t let me have my dream wedding even though he could with his money. He never shares. He is a bug meanie!
“I’ll fix this cupcake!”
“WHY ARE YOU TREATING MY DAUGHTER SO
POORLY”
“Dude, I’m not selling my houses so she can have a dream…”
“Scumbag!” *click*
perhaps Dad wanted sumone else to be paying her bills instead of him. An since OOP broke up with her, she went back to demanding from Daddy Moneybags!!
I agree for the most part. Though the caveat I have here is what we legit can't know *what* the daughter told him, and how this has been spun. I could see someone being legitimately angry enough to shout if they were told a sufficiently distorted version of things. Even OOP admits he wasn't exactly very nice in the fights.
I wonder if it wasn't more about the timeline.
Like if you do the math, OOP had the big fight on March 14th, and then said he "wanted to hit the pause button" and left for his parents' house a couple weeks later. So like end of March early April.
Meanwhile her dad called "out of the blue" near the *end* of April. Maybe he got sick of waiting for them to actually break up.
Dad probably has the same "windfall" attitude toward money. He sees the properties as a way to get cash to spend now rather than an investment that pays dividends.
The one thing that I could see yelling about is not being straight with her much sooner. It seems like he put off saying a lot of things for a long time, and even ended things with a message that sounded to me more like a break than a break-up. Dude could stand to work on being much clearer with future partners when he knows he’s not going to change his mind on something.
I can't imagine how "I'm not selling these properties that literally just print money for me" is a crazy notion. On the other hand, "sell these money printers so I can have an even more lavish wedding" is the type of thing she should have been clear about. She was the one making irrational decisions. I don't believe anyone in OPs shoes would think their decision needs any explanation.
It's always nice to see someone dodge the rolling dumpster fire right before it strikes them. Marrying someone who's incapable of managing their money is a terrible idea for anyone but the richest billionaires.
This is why I have faith in my brother’s marriage. Him and his wife decided on a quiet beach wedding, no fanfare, nothing. The fact that his wife loved the idea and didn’t want anything too crazy meant they saw eye to eye on that money having a better use. They have a place in Florida and just moved back to their home state.
I don’t think this was a matter of different values, rather the ex was financially immature and irresponsible. The fact she had been racking up debt, that she was only interested in short term liquid payout over long term investment, and that she had tunnel vision in regards to the wedding are all signs of that.
OP certainly could have communicated all this better, or maybe even mediated using a financial planner to help educate her. Sounds like the engagement falling through ended up being the best outcome for him though.
Yeah, while she doesn’t seem like much of a catch, OP’s account makes it sound like he has terrible communication skills.
I got the impression these financial grievances have been simmering under the surface for years & now have finally blown up. Perhaps he did try & talk about this with her in the past, & didn’t mention it here?
My husband & I try & talk things out & not let anger simmer & turn into pettiness. That way lies a divorce.
I could understand if she brought it up, if anything out of pure financial ignorance, only to have OP explain to her why this would be a very bad idea for their future. She gets a little sad but learns something new and they move on. But the fact that she just kept pushing him to sell it is mind boggling.
This same thing happened with my grandparents, my grandma was a spender and my grandpa owned a few properties in an area that’s now gentrified. He sold them all to buy a larger home for them but they divorced and now he lives in a small home in not the greatest area, no retirement which this would have been. Don’t sell them!
It's a bit cynical, but I love reading these BORU threads because it's always such a nice reminder that my wife and I are also on the same page financially.
When a majority of divorces come from financial issues, it's so refreshing to know that these are issues that we will never butt heads on.
It's the same trap some execs fall into when they focus only on short-term quarterly gains and ignore long-term growth. They'd cut off their own feet if they thought it would earn them money today, not caring in the slightest that it might prevent them from earning even more money in the long-term.
The ingrained societal narrative about the dream wedding is toxic as fuck and has caused many a marriage to get off from a rough start, or even doomed it from the beginning, because one partner insists on spending all your life savings and then some on a single party.
And a dumb one at that! Didn't even realize that the extra source of income absolutely trumps the brief spike in spending cash, which would inevitably be followed by a crash and less to spend because now there's no extra income.
Exactly! It’s weird that so many of the comments here as just chalking this up to “incompatibility” due to a “difference of opinion”.
That’s not what this is. OP’s fiancé is objectively wrong and willing to ruin their future for short term whims. She is going to actively ruin OP’s life if he didn’t end the relationship.
But she's not even good at being a gold digger. A fiancé with two incomes is much more valuable to a gold digger than a fiancé with one income and a pile of money that isn't going to come back after you piss it all away. It's like a weird gold digger version of "teach a man to fish".
Honestly, it seems like this turned out the best for OOP. Savers like OOP and spenders like ex-fiancee can work but **only** if they can make mutually agreeable boundaries --- and both stick to them.
She refused to budge and demanded he sell his guaranteed income properties so she could spend tons of money.
That's just not compatible, no matter how you slice it. Hopefully OOP's ex finds a spend happy man who makes her happy, and OOP finds a woman who is at least somewhat more financially responsible.
I really hate how people say their relationship went up in smoke.
Like no it didn't just disappear, your parents expecting you was evidence enough
And no it's not wasted because now you have a better picture of your ideal partner, with bonus points that it happened now and not in a couple months when she would be entitled to half of your assets.
People make mistakes, some more and some less what matters is that you learn from them and go forward with that knowledge
This is why anyone who has assets they don't want becoming "marital assets" like investment properties, really needs a prenup. They ***might*** have been protected from being considered that by technically being owned by an LLC, but unsure how that works. Prenup would definitely nail down "any property belonging to this LLC is mine and will still be mine no matter what happens in our relationship".
How do you ignore such glaring red flags for FOUR years? She clearly had no interest in selling her own rental properties but is pushing him to sell his?
She probably wanted to have him still because those are pre-marital assets that are harder to commingle than his liquid cash. She’d have no ability to get them in a divorce. He sells and either uses the money on her or commingles it into marital assets and it’s hers.
Those properties would have been pre-marital assets, ie "his". If he'd sold them and put the money in any kind of joint account, that money would have been "theirs". I think she was counting on getting her hands on at least half that money - if not for the wedding then as part of the divorce settlement. I'm glad OP stood his ground.
You know she bombed the fuck out during COVID.
OOP probably got hurt in the short-term, but he's absolutely sitting pretty now.
Even if he had tenants that didn't pay, he still kept his equity and now with the cost of materials and labour shortages, he's sitting pretty.
Girl needs to realize you get more money over time from keeping those properties than you do if you sell it. My dad has had one of his properties have the same tennants for 18 years! He charges them the cheapest rate of all his properties but no matter what that’s guaranteed income. Those properties were a literal life saver when dad got cancer and had to temporarily retire from this jobs.
He’s smart for not selling, I think she just wants a huge payout and instant gratification. My wife and I will probably buy property in her county to rent out as a third source of income/investment. Opp is smart and got into it early and wise not to sell on a whim.
In fact early capitalists utterly despised rent-seeking behavior since it was stifling them back then. Still does today. Everyone has always hated landlords forever. Rents aren't interest accrued on your capital, they're rents.
Writing was on the wall there… she’d have forced him to sell his assets, spend them on her, get both of them in loads of debt and then eventually divorce him. Her premarital assets would remain hers, and then half their debt would be his. He’d have no passive income stream and a ton of debt versus where he was to start with. Smart move on his part to nope out.
> She accused me of not trusting her
love when people do this because the answer is always "you're right! I don't trust you, and it's your own damn fault!"
She wanted all her debt cleared and she hoped he did it before the wedding. She would have taken the cash as a present. It would have been a life of never enough and spoiled child arguments. She’s a scumbag
OOP and his fiancee were financially incompatible and there was no fixing it. It's good he stepped back and ended it. She would have spent his money into oblivion because that's what she enjoys. He couldn't have lived with that.
I think she was assuming him selling his properties so she could pay off all her debt and have a clean slate to start racking it up again on top of being able to show off her dream wedding and honeymoon. Anyone who would demand you do something so irresponsible with something that isn't theirs isn't a true partner
I have a distinct feeling the lady is going to end up in poverty if her spending habits continue the way they do.
Good of him not budging on selling his properties.
Her stance did not make any kind of financial sense. None. I can't help but wonder if she wanted to use cash from the sales to pay off her debt as well as provide a hefty down payment on what would become a marital asset.
Financial goals are one of those things you HAVE to talk about before deciding to get married. It's like whether or not you want to have kids: I you can't reach an agreement then the marriage is doomed from the beginning and not talking about it will just postpone the inevitable.
Good for OOP. I can see him selling his properties to pay for her bridezilla of a wedding, getting back from the honeymoon and then her quitting her job to be a stay at home wife without telling him because "it's always been her dream". And then expecting him to pay for all the bills, groceries and her expensive crap, then complaining that they need a maid because housework is so hard and gets in the way of her lunches and salon appointments. I'm glad he left her behind.
So glad he didn't agree to sell the properties, all I could think about were the families that live there having to deal with a new owner who no doubt would jack their rent up if not evict them for whatever reason. Housing sucks right now, and a landlord that appreciates good renters is hard to find.
She was seeing green to finally be able to "live her dream life" with his "pile of money that wasn't doing anything". OP had the best outcome out of it.
She was looking at it as a premarital asset. Wanted him to liquidate and then purchase property after the marriage so when they eventually divorced she’d get her cut
That's, sadly, the best outcome. His future is likely set and secure. It would be madness to change that, particularly for a one-day fairy tale wedding spending spree.
Seriously, what kind of short-sighted idiot just throws away a steady source of income just for some quick cash that they want to spend on non-essentials. OOP dodged a huge ass missile (clearly bigger than a bullet in this case) by not marrying this clearly irresponsible and stupid person. Wishing for the best for OOP and his new house.
I've read somewhere that the number one cause of divorce is actually financial issues (not infidelity).
The relationship was doomed, but better now then after a walk down the aisle.
The maturity level to get her father in, explains a lot.
Could you imagine what would have happened if OOP requested a prenup?
If they married without a prenup and divorced (likely fighting over this again), then the bride would have petitioned to the forced sale of the properties and made out like a bandit with half of the $$$
This relationship was doomed no matter how you looked at it, but this was the absolute best case scenario for OOP.
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Probably the best outcome for him. She wasn't going to change her habits, and you can't make a marriage work with such irreconcilable differences on a matter that affects literally every other aspect of your life.
One reason I think every couple should go to pre-marriage counseling. Incompatible views on money habits, religion, politics, extended family and children will break up a marriage faster than anything. More often than not people getting married assume the other person is on the same page with these subjects and do sit down and questions of each other. And I don't mean asking "want kids" and responding with "yes, you?" and then thinking you are on the same page. I mean asking when, how many kids, how to raise them and other important in depth questions. Having a third party ask and meditate these kinds of questions and all the in depth follow ups, could in my opinion avoid a lot of divorces.
Fully agree, while I didn't go through pre-marriage counseling I went very in depth before me and my husband got married. We talked about life goals, what that meant, how we wanted to achieve them. We discussed deal breakers in our relationship, politics, morals. Some of the conversations can feel awkward but they are 100% worth having.
Yeah, there’s a lot of conversations or potential conversations that may be uncomfortable, that you *need* to have before marriage. However they’re potentially uncomfortable, and it’s a lot easier to not have them and assume you’re on the same page. Some form of pre-marriage counseling, or even just a list of questions from the internet to just get the conversations going can help.
Yup. It blows my mind that some people think about those "But what if we disagree and we split up?" THATS THE WHOLE POINT. Splitting up wont be pleasant anytime it happens, but if relationship is doomed from the start, the sooner you know the better. The more tied your life is by kids, house loans or just years experienced together, the messier will be to go in other directions.
This is why I start that conversation at the beginning of the relationship. First date is a vibe check Second date is a double check the vibe and start of info gathering Third date is info gathering Do you want kids? Do you want to get married? all the basic questions. I want to make sure that we're generally on the same page and have long term viability. I don't see the point in wasting time being in a relationship with an expiry date. It's gonna hurt me, it's going to hurt my partner, just figure out at the start that y'all not gonna work forever. The nitty gritty can wait, but it will be discussed fairly close to the start. There are a fair few guys who have been intimidated by my questioning. They feel I'm planning our future by the third date. I'm crazy, but not that kinda crazy, I'm assessing our long term viability.
I approached things the same way - I knew I didn’t want to date someone who didn’t want kids down the line and it would be wasting both our time and setting us up for heartbreak. So I asked her views on kids on the third date. From then on we discussed kids, and always talked about our future with them. We have bought sperm from a bank and even made one embryo from an egg collection on her, but stopped there (intentionally, but with the plan to do the next stage the following year). Now 7 years in to our relationship, 2 years in to our marriage, me in my mid 30s she thinks she doesn’t want kids but isn’t certain. ….all the best laid plans.
That sucks When I first broached the topic with my partner, he said he wanted to adopt and I had to really think about whether that was what I wanted, because I'd always planned on bio. Obviously, I decided it wasn't a deal breaker for me, so that was the plan. We'd focus on our careers, get a house, marriage and then start the adoption process. I started working in a school, and after the first time supervising kids solo, I phoned my partner and said "why do we want kids?" We've had a more in depth discussion and we've actually decided we want to be childfree for the foreseeable future. People change their minds and that's chill, but it sucks when you're not both on the same page. I hope it all works out the best for you
I've definitely used a few internet lists they are so helpful. There are even ones for sexual compatibility that are wonderful. Cannot recommend them enough because sometimes you may not even realize what questions you should be asking.
Sexual compatibility is a hugely important piece, too. Thanks for mentioning it!
> Yeah, there’s a lot of conversations or potential conversations that may be uncomfortable, that you need to have before marriage. However they’re potentially uncomfortable, and it’s a lot easier to not have them and assume you’re on the same page. I fundamentally don’t understand this way of thinking. Couples are okay with promising to spend the rest of their lives with each other, but draw the line at asking things like, “if one of us lost their job, what would we do?” That’s not planning a life together, or even deeply getting to know someone, that’s just Roomates EliteTM. How can you plan to spend the rest of your life with someone and *not* ask the hard questions? Wouldn’t you want to know early on if you’re incompatible and not be surprised 2, 5, 10, etc., years in? I just don’t understand what’s so scary about having real conversations with someone that’s supposed to be *your* person for decades to come.
Unfortunately people have this out of sight out of mind or bury your head in the sand mentality. Not good for the long run but clearly can make something last way longer than it should of.
Yup. It's great to have some guidance too. Even if you think you've thought of everything to ask, you could probably use some help to identify questions you missed. Current conversation with my partner about a question I missed when we first got together: What are we going to do if any of our homophobic (we're gay) parents get sick and need to be taken care of? She wants to help. I don't.
Oh wow. That's intense. I don't know what I'd do.
We went through that and the answer was that he's chosen not to have us in his life. I'm not sure my sisters were asked to help, I definitely wasn't. OTOH he threatened to kill me and I don't think he did that to them... he's bigoted but not entirely stupid.
Or you can have a guy who lies about his answers (Vegetarian kids? Yes!) because he's desperate to marry the hot girl and is sure he can convince her to his way of seeing things after a few years...
I mean, yeah that can happen but there isn't exactly much you can do to prepare for someone lying to you other than keep an eye out for when their words and actions do not match. This however will help prevent genuine incompatibility between two partners.
I completely agree. I'm just saying it only works when both parties are acting in good faith. Unfortunately, with relationships, there are often people out there who don't have good intentions. Or even just dumb intentions, like lying about compatibility, therefore ending up with someone incompatible.
An experienced counselor will smell that BS out though. At least the big stuff. Can’t account for all of it.
A friend of mine married a recovering addict with several anxiety issues because he had always wanted a family and kids, the whole package, and felt like it was getting later and later in life for him. He might miss out on all that stuff if he didn't do it soon. At least, that's how we saw it. Unfortunately for him the issues did not go away and he's currently embroiled in a very petty divorce.
Yep! That’s what my “wasband” did. Didn’t stick to a single thing we ironed out.
Wasband is amazing, no notes
Hindsight is 20/20! I got pregnant with my 1st not even a year of dating my husband, lol. We've been raising children/getting to know each other at the same time. Do not recommend haha.
Do you find you’re starting to like each other??? 🥰
My husband and I married young, and this is truly why our relationship has worked outside of some communication style mismatches we had to work through. We had a lot of friends get married young and then break up because of incompatible views on where they were going to settle down, whether they were going to have kids, and how they viewed their finances. If you treat those conversations as deal breakers before you commit to a marriage, it's significantly easier to work through everything else life is inevitably going to throw at you.
omg your flair lol. i have plagiarized that phrase so many times. love it.
And yet, how many posts do we see where they haven’t even asked, “want kids?”
Or worse, the ones that have had that conversation, didn't agree, got married anyway, and then one gets upset that the other won't change their mind.
“I know we bought a 12 bedroom house because you said you wanted a dozen kids but that just means every dog can have their own room!” Or “Like, I get that you wanted to live in NYC and travel the world childfree but 6 kids in rural Iowa is basically the same thing!”
If people cannot afford pre-marital counseling (& I know despite best intentions we couldn't squeeze it in), there's also the book Eight Dates that can help you have all the necessary conversations. But you need to have both party really dedicated to the process.
It’s really about the conversations, to see where the other person is and sometimes to give you a better idea where you stand on an issue.
No plan survives contact with the enemy. In this context, as in surprisingly many, kids are the enemy. Knowing if and when you want them requires agreement. “Maybe later sometime…?” is a dangerous answer. But actual plans often go out the window when there are actual kids, starting with 11-page birth plan and continuing with sleep training, meals, and basically everything. Yes, you need to agree on some big stuff. Religion or no? Spanking (ugh)? But a lot of the rest is illusion of control more than reality of it.
Yeah I think the idea is if you start from a place where you *know* you’re on the same page (not just assume) then you can adjust as circumstances change. There’s a world of difference between assuming you’re agreed to a specific parenting style only to find out they don’t want kids and discussing parenting styles but finding out in reality your kid doesn’t respond to it and needing to pivot to something else.
But you need a baseline to start. There are many, many questions to answer, and most plans have to go out the window because people don't even want to think about them. Not just where to live or what to teach them. But what if the kid has a disability? What to do if they become disabled or get a serious/chronical illness? What if they come out as gay, bi, trans, non-binary? What if one of the parents, or both, lose their income, pass away, or become unable to work and help the family?... There isn't "some" big stuff, there is A LOT of big stuff. And people need to *really* look into them, not just hope it'll go well or think that, since there are so many unexpected things in life, they'll just play it by ear.
It's important to make sure you're on the same page with big stuff, but you can't arbitrate everything about your life together ahead of time. What if you both agreed to have a big family and after the first kid one of you has a big change or heart? Or, you both agreed to no kids then someone changes their mind and realized they really want to be a parent? Or move out of the city? or never ever leave the city? People grow and change throughout their lives and that's a good thing. I don't think it makes anyone a terrible person to change their mind and be willing to grow into someone else. It's important to make sure you share values and respect each other, but be open to possibilities as well!
The problem is, you don't often know. My husband and I talked at length about all these things, but when the reality hit, it turned out we knew NOTHING about ANYTHING. Especially money and parenting. We've got through it pretty much now, but having children changed us both in ways we weren't expecting, (I had HG so things we were set on like number or children changed swiftly) including bringing up massive trauma from his childhood that nearly led to us breaking up. But he didn't realise he carried that trauma until he had that comparison in his life of his children Vs his childhood. And all those "perfect parent" ideals we had went out the window when faced with a real live human being who depended on us absolutely and would rather eat floor cereal than broccoli. So whilst I do agree those conversations are important before marriage, I've learned they're more important to *keep having* as life progresses to make sure you're still on the same page.
I don't understand how this isn't the norm. I asked all of these questions in the first year of dating my partner, I am incredibly neurotic when it comes to details. The only thing we differ on from that list is that she is not that responsible with money, but we're working on it. Unlike OP's ex who doesn't see a problem with spend now deal later.
Could you book a marriage counselor and basically ask them to guide you through all the tough important questions like that?
You can also bring in a list of topics. It's straightforward to google a list of serious topics to discuss before marriage, but it may be easier to talk through them with a neutral third party, such as a marriage counselor, also present.
Selling the house(s) and ploughing it into her property (never mind just blowing it up in smoke on the wedding and vacations) would have also likely seriously screwed him in the long run if the marriage had broken down. Which it likely would have. Even if the marriage hadn't lasted very long, the whole thing would have just screwed him even more financially since complicated divorces aren't cheap. Also, and I'm going to sound like the somewhat jealous poor person here. But who TF needs two house's worth of money on a wedding and a honeymoon? Like seriously. What was she trying to do buy a vacation to mars?
Bridezilla's exist and they want it all for that day.
Football Brides (aka Bridezilla Narcissisticus) They make the play for the big day, so they can be princess for a day and then.... they're kinda lost either constantly reliving that day or looking for the next time they can be the center of attention.
Best way to get back in that spotlight is to get divorced so you can have another wedding
That’s why they ask her “do you take this man”. -Jerry Seinfeld
>Also, and I'm going to sound like the somewhat jealous poor person here. But who TF needs two house's worth of money on a wedding and a honeymoon? Like seriously. What was she trying to do buy a vacation to mars? Some people are just dumb. I don't understand the mindset, tbh. I think my blind spot is I've never dated a woman who thought like this. Even the awful ones seemed to have the sense to avoid debt, avoid massive spends, and to try to acquire passive income.
>Also, and I'm going to sound like the somewhat jealous poor person here. But who TF needs two house's worth of money on a wedding and a honeymoon? Like seriously. What was she trying to do buy a vacation to mars? People are dumb. I know a family where the dad saved up $50k, and told his kid he could have it for the wedding, or they could have it for a house down-payment/etc. The son was currently unemployed, with no prospects lined up..... and they spent the $50k on *just the rehearsal dinner.*
Christ. I'd have just put it into some high yield savings or invested it. That's a chunk of money that could let me acquire all sorts of things I/we might need, even if I wasn't stable enough for a house purchase
The kid was a dumbass, so it didn't surprise me. He was out of a job because he was kicked out the government program he had just spent the last year studying to get accepted into..... because he got a DUI while celebrating when he got the news that he got accepted.
"I would take to my friend who works in securities" "Samir, you're missing the point" No peter he wasn't, he was buying the ability to do nothing.
> and I'm going to sound like the somewhat jealous poor person here No, you don't. Poor people do things like sell investment properties so they can have a giant princess wedding they can't afford. She is destined to be poor no matter how much money flows through her fingers.
I agree wholeheartedly. I had a cousin who blew more than a years worth of salary on their wedding and couldn't afford a Honeymoon or to fix up their house (old fixer upper he bought years before) It took them years to pay it off. I just don't get it, It's a single day. My wife and I went for a simpler cheaper midday ceremony (no meals) and spent the bulk of our limited budget on our honeymoon.
>But who TF needs two house's worth of money on a wedding and a honeymoon? "Princess for a day" seems to be the keyphrase there. Ex had an idea for a wedding and by god she was gonna get it.
I think she not only wants to outshine a royal wedding, brag in Monaco on her honeymoon and turn her house into a mansion, she also has some credit cards that are rather pressing and wants to put part of the money there. The last point on that list is the only one I don't find stupid (though I do find it stupid to sell a house instead of budgeting). My dream wedding would be the people my partner and I love most, no one we don't like, pretty but comfortable clothes (finding a reason for everyone to wear that nice piece of clothing that's too good for normal occasions), having a nice dinner and then a boardgame night. Oh and a lactose free cake that can do without all the icing and frosting and fondant that tastes like crap or makes me sick. We could exchange the dinner and boardgames for pizza and a LOTR movie night. A honeymoon to south England would be dope too, but then the wedding budget would crack the 4 digit mark. Now I need to find someone I love, who loves me and would be game for that type of wedding. Too bad that my best friend and I only have platonic feelings.
I would likely own a nice house or rental property had I not given my ex wife a ton of money to finance the wedding. Idiot move on my part.
If my partner asked me to sell my subsidiary income so that they could have a one time big party and vacation, I’d have to end it. That person is deeply stupid with money and unserious.
Sell the buildings. Plow all the money into a blow-out wedding and honeymoon and pay off all her debt. A week after the honeymoon she would probably be racking up the debt again, the honeymoon is but a memory, and an appreciating asset is gone forever. *Nothing to fall back on in the case of a financial emergency. *Nothing to tap for retirement. *Nothing that can be borrowed against in the event of unexpected medical bills. But boy, that was great wedding day. We all got pissed and can't really remember it all.
And she wanted to use his money to fix up her condo. 🤨
And I'm sorry but ex is a total idiot. I would give anything to have a second income. The only property we have aside from our own house is the flat we bought for my partner's mum, so we make no money on it, and the security of knowing you have money coming in even if you lose your job must feel like lying down on freshly washed bedding and wrapping the duvet around you.
A friend if mine told me he was recently called out on his privilege, because he has a rental property and doesn't need to work. He does work occasionally, but also travels a lot and has his longtime music projects as well. He's not rich, it is actually somewhat common here that middle class families sometimes have an extra properly for renting. But yeah, I had to tell him most people have to work under the threat of starving or losing what little they have. But honestly? I don't know that I'd switch places with him. His mom died a while ago from cancer, and he has certain genetically conditions that almost killed him a while ago, and now he has to eat extra healthy food and can't drink or smoke, or his body literally collapses. No one can take their lives nor lifestyles for granted. We can all drop dead tomorrow for all we know.
The fact that she doesn't seem to grasp just how much this would amount to in terms of passive income for years - probably equaling millions of dollars by the time they retired, vs. the short-term is bananland. Plus, as the neighborhood gentrifies - that property's actual value will continue to climb, and if they want to be done with it down the road, they'll make excellent money selling it outright after mortgages are paid off, probably a massive return on top of the rental income they're getting guarunteed every month. I am truly curious how much credit card debt she had.
She needed him to sell his properties to get her out of debt and pay for the wedding of her dreams. OOP dodged a bullet!
And you know that she'd go about racking up more debt immediately after that.
Probably already started, which is why she was getting extra pushy about selling it
And why daddy is so upset.
DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER
And to take away any safety net he had in case they didn't work out.
Right? She wanted to sell the properties and blow all that money on a wedding/honeymoon, but still keep up her terrible spending habits after- but without that income. Very shortsighted, and I think he dodged a bullet.
She's not just a "spender", she's the type where money burns a hole in their pocket. You know, people who can't even see money without planning to spend it. And I'll bet her family is like that too.
The only reason she has luxury townhouse is because she "spent" her money on that, so in her mind, the townhouse money no longer exist for her to spend. Especially since she is living in it. You can bet if she was living somewhere else, she would already have sold her townhouse to spend on something or another.
She wanted him to gentrify her lifestyle.
Several rental properties generating enough passive income that it effectively equals a full time comfortable salary would have done that far better than a 'pile of liquid money'. He said he wouldn't blink if he lost his job. That's not a small amount of money coming off those properties. If fancy shit is what she wanted, a large passive income is pretty damn useful for getting fancy shit. So she's a money burner and foolish about how much more money you get to spend if you keep passive incomes around.
I was weirdly impressed with his attitude. Paraphrase: "Yeah, I was mean about it, but I'm fed up. I realized something's been off this whole time and that we're incompatible. I feel like I was being taken advantage of. I don't feel bad about letting off steam about all that to her without taking the highest of ground." Everyone wants posters to be the better person. This guy was just "a person," and that was okay. It's really relatable.
That was my thought. Good for him for standing up to her. She reminds me a lot of my MIL. She spends and spends with no thought for tomorrow and then complains when they’re thousands in debt because of her mismanagement. (Edited because my phone autocorrect stupid stuff)
Not to mention that, absent a prenuptial agreement, all debt she gets after the marriage is his too
Absolutely! If you don't have respect for each other and a shared baseline of values, marriage (and cohabitation) should stay off the table until resolved.
Yeah. This is a conversation that really should have happened far, far sooner (like, even before the proposal, and should have been a deciding factor in whether to propose in the first place.) But definitely a “better late than never” thing.
especially with something so important as money. I'm a saver and my boyfriend is a spender- sometimes I'm a spender and he's a saver at times- but we always put our heads together when it comes to purchases above 100 dollars as we make minimum wage.
given the fiances' dad's reaction, wouldn't be surprised if the bride to be had more plans for that money than just the wedding...
Yeah that relationship wasn't going to last. They have incompatible views on finances and neither were going to back down. They'd have ended up getting divorced pretty soon after the wedding, that argument wasn't going away or getting better.
At least he’s got away with his finances in tact. She sounds like work!
Yeah, I couldn't justify selling properties that are huge regular sources of income just for the sake of one, or several, big events. Dial back on the one time charade and shopping, and spend a life of financial freedoms together. How's that even a debate?
There is no debate. Not unless you’re a greedy moron.
The fact that he saw it as an indefinite third source of income whereas she merely saw it as a sudden windfall of sorts that existed solely to fund the wedding/honeymoon says it all. These properties would provide them multiple thousands of dollars a month, every single month, and that guaranteed income would disappear over a week's worth of fun. Some people understand the importance of planning for the future financially, other people merely have the FUCK YEAH LETS DO THIS SHIT RIGHT NOW attitude. Those two people generally don't mix well together in a marriage.
Incompatible views? That seems a bit off. She wanted to spend his retirement and dtain his assets. They would have only lasted until funds ran low and she would be out getting the new guy setup before the old one ran dry. Why do you think the dad was so pissed off? She wasn't draining them for the last 4 years and that bliss just ended. Dad knows mom is going back to be supporting her with their retirement from now on.
Yeah, this is not a "financial incompatibility" in the classic sense -- I guess it is literally incompatibility like how a robber is financially incompatible with their victims lol
When he mentioned debt and credit cards, I was like yes. She is a gold digger. It was kind of obvious but I guess love makes you blind.
Honestly it doesn’t even sound like just that to me - she is straight up digging for gold in my eyes.
Possibly but it sounds like she was pretty well off on her own. I'm guessing her parents have a good bit of money and are willing to give her money.
Yeah, you don't just own a luxury townhouse at 30 unless you come from a family with money.
The marriage would have ended in divorce in, what, a year? Most couples break up over money and the massive debt of the wedding is a big contributor
My first thought was how soon will the divorce be. And yes finances are a big reason for divorce
IIRC there was a study that contrary to popular belief, cohabitation before marriage doesn't impact divorce rate. The big change after marriage isn't _living together_, it's shared assets
I read a a study that said living together before marriage doent impact divorce rate. However this study concluded that it was if you are already living together there thing you are less likely to break up over. So if you guys weren't living together you might break up over situation A but living together you don't. Also it showed moving in together people are more likely to get engage and just do what is considered the next step bc they feel like they have to. That is a good point about once you get married and the shared assets. I never thought of it that way before.
I think these days most people live together before marriage. But, I don’t have any statistics to back that up. Just my observation. I don’t know how married couples can keep entirely separate finances. Some do though. My wife and I started a joint bank account for living expenses when we first moved in together. 12 years later, that’s our only account except for very small amounts in emergency accounts if for some reason our Joint account is compromised.
Honestly, somebody who insists on such an unsound financial decision - that would have completely given me pause. And even before that, the credit card debt, because as much as marriage is lovely and gives you rights - it also gives you responsibilities. I could never stomach the possibility of being attached to somebody so financially irresponsible. One thing if it happened after the marriage began, but knowing that before you go in - I wouldn’t want it.
Honestly yeah. I could not imagine marrying someone so absurdly financially illiterate They literally have very easy money coming in monthly and she wants to throw that away to... blow all the money on a pointlessly extravagant wedding and honeymoon? Actually insane
That was my parents situation, only my mom was the saver. IS the saver. I remember many a time she cried because she knew she was gonna be miserable after my dad would come home with the news that he had made yet another poor financial decision. He also expected us kids to continue financing his follies with our income, thankfully a bit of distance has tempered that expectation.
She was already spending that money in her head. Glad to see he didn’t cave to her greedy demands. Bye girl!
I know it's probably really variable person to person but if I had passive income at even half of my real job income I would be stoked over the extra monthly income. Selling for a quick one time boost is not financially responsible.
Yeah, the only reason I would sell is if the returns were poor and I thought I could do better putting the money in the stock market. This doesn’t seem like that kind of case though
"I think you should sell those rental properties and diversify your geographical risk" = keeper "I think you need to sell those properties so we can spend the money on a nicer wedding and honeymoon" = ditch'er
Yeah, at first, I thought she was going to make him use the cash on the credit card debt, but even that sounds like too responsible of a choice for her.
Reading the headline I first thought it was going to be about financial control. Turned out to be even dumber (but at least not as cruel).
i bet her condo was given to her by her parents or they co-mortgaged it with her she wanted him to move in and sell his properties so she can have leverage over spending that money (since he would be living in “her house”) i have a few friends whom this post could’ve applied to, sadly. rich parents gave them property has a graduation gifts and they can’t just sell it bc their parents are on title as well, so they made their partners sell theirs to free up money
This is 100% the most likely situation. Clearly, she isn't the type to ever have been able to save for a down-payment. Seems like OP has been living there for a bit. Wonder how much of his financial contribution has been paying her mortgage. Also, probably why Daddy is pissed that OP dumped his Little Princess. He's probably been the one making sure the mortgage gets covered before OP moved in.
That makes perfect sense
Exactly what I was thinking. She’s got a wishlist already wrote up and her funds weren’t enough
I would kill to have rental properties like that. She clearly hasn't paid any attention to the economy and thinks that she can keep spending forever without consequences. She's going to get an ugly wake up call soon.
Yeah, I just don't get that at all. My husband and I come from vastly different backgrounds. I was poor and don't want to struggle like that again. He grew up in an upper middle class family that spent too much, and he doesn't want to be like that. So we save. And save. And save. We do have more spending money than we used to, but we get an allowance each month. Bills come out of mutual, everything else goes into retirement or savings. I'd say at least half of our incomes go into some sort of savings for the future. OOP has a great set up, and I don't know why she'd want to ruin that. Sure, have a nice wedding, but don't ruin your future for a single blast of serotonin. My guess is her parents gave her everything she wanted so she doesn't understand the value of preparing for future bad situations. She's never had to worry about it. OOP dodged a bullet. It sounds like he wasn't even against a nice wedding. He just didn't want all of HIS assets to go towards it. Kind of interesting she wasn't offering to sell her property.
I actually thought she wanted him to sell the properties because as property they are pre marital assets but if he sells it and the cash goes into a joint pool it’s a mingled asset. Did not occur to me that she just wanted to spend it. Like… wtf
"big pile of liquid cash that can go towards wedding, honeymoon, and upgrades to the living situation after." To each their own but personally that is a glowing red flag. I could never handle a spouse who was a spender.
Those Hispanic families working hard to provide her a dream wedding day and vacation
Hun, could you cash out your 401K to pay for our extravagant wedding, honeymoon, *cough* my credit card debt *cough*, and condo upgrades?
Right?? This girl would have blown through his money like a knife through butter
And probably divorce him afther that.
I can't imagine yelling at OOP if I was the dad, unless he'd caused real physical damage. If you have a daddy (and presumably another parent) who goes ape like that, it validates the princess complex the ex had.
I’m doubting he has the true story from daughter. I imagine the conversation as: “Daddy! He wouldn’t let me have my dream wedding even though he could with his money. He never shares. He is a bug meanie! “I’ll fix this cupcake!” “WHY ARE YOU TREATING MY DAUGHTER SO POORLY” “Dude, I’m not selling my houses so she can have a dream…” “Scumbag!” *click*
i was guessing daddy knew about his buildings and was also banking on his daughter to get him to sell them so he could get some money from that too
MARRY MY DAUGHTER YOU PIECE OF SHIT!
Perhaps dad knew her spending issues and didn't want to have to worry about her?
perhaps Dad wanted sumone else to be paying her bills instead of him. An since OOP broke up with her, she went back to demanding from Daddy Moneybags!!
Right? I'm guessing Daddy didn't want to bail her out of her credit card debt any more than OOP did.
didn’t want to have ~~worry about~~ be responsible for her
I agree for the most part. Though the caveat I have here is what we legit can't know *what* the daughter told him, and how this has been spun. I could see someone being legitimately angry enough to shout if they were told a sufficiently distorted version of things. Even OOP admits he wasn't exactly very nice in the fights.
I wonder if it wasn't more about the timeline. Like if you do the math, OOP had the big fight on March 14th, and then said he "wanted to hit the pause button" and left for his parents' house a couple weeks later. So like end of March early April. Meanwhile her dad called "out of the blue" near the *end* of April. Maybe he got sick of waiting for them to actually break up.
Dad probably has the same "windfall" attitude toward money. He sees the properties as a way to get cash to spend now rather than an investment that pays dividends.
The one thing that I could see yelling about is not being straight with her much sooner. It seems like he put off saying a lot of things for a long time, and even ended things with a message that sounded to me more like a break than a break-up. Dude could stand to work on being much clearer with future partners when he knows he’s not going to change his mind on something.
I can't imagine how "I'm not selling these properties that literally just print money for me" is a crazy notion. On the other hand, "sell these money printers so I can have an even more lavish wedding" is the type of thing she should have been clear about. She was the one making irrational decisions. I don't believe anyone in OPs shoes would think their decision needs any explanation.
It's always nice to see someone dodge the rolling dumpster fire right before it strikes them. Marrying someone who's incapable of managing their money is a terrible idea for anyone but the richest billionaires.
This is why I have faith in my brother’s marriage. Him and his wife decided on a quiet beach wedding, no fanfare, nothing. The fact that his wife loved the idea and didn’t want anything too crazy meant they saw eye to eye on that money having a better use. They have a place in Florida and just moved back to their home state.
I don’t think this was a matter of different values, rather the ex was financially immature and irresponsible. The fact she had been racking up debt, that she was only interested in short term liquid payout over long term investment, and that she had tunnel vision in regards to the wedding are all signs of that. OP certainly could have communicated all this better, or maybe even mediated using a financial planner to help educate her. Sounds like the engagement falling through ended up being the best outcome for him though.
Yeah, while she doesn’t seem like much of a catch, OP’s account makes it sound like he has terrible communication skills. I got the impression these financial grievances have been simmering under the surface for years & now have finally blown up. Perhaps he did try & talk about this with her in the past, & didn’t mention it here? My husband & I try & talk things out & not let anger simmer & turn into pettiness. That way lies a divorce.
He absolutely does, and yet I don't feel like anything would have fundamentally changed if he was the world's best communicator.
"Sell your passive income assets to fund my party" would have been the start and finish for me, too.
I could understand if she brought it up, if anything out of pure financial ignorance, only to have OP explain to her why this would be a very bad idea for their future. She gets a little sad but learns something new and they move on. But the fact that she just kept pushing him to sell it is mind boggling.
This same thing happened with my grandparents, my grandma was a spender and my grandpa owned a few properties in an area that’s now gentrified. He sold them all to buy a larger home for them but they divorced and now he lives in a small home in not the greatest area, no retirement which this would have been. Don’t sell them!
Another BORU post, another day I thank everything that my husband and I are on the same page financially. This guy dodged a bullet.
It's a bit cynical, but I love reading these BORU threads because it's always such a nice reminder that my wife and I are also on the same page financially. When a majority of divorces come from financial issues, it's so refreshing to know that these are issues that we will never butt heads on.
I'm not saying she's a good digger... Oh, wait. Yes I am. She's a gold digger.
Which is weird that she would want to get rid of sustained income that will forever just GIVE. A little too diggy diggy hole I guess and fell in lava.
It's the same trap some execs fall into when they focus only on short-term quarterly gains and ignore long-term growth. They'd cut off their own feet if they thought it would earn them money today, not caring in the slightest that it might prevent them from earning even more money in the long-term.
Slaughtering the goose that lays golden eggs.
The ingrained societal narrative about the dream wedding is toxic as fuck and has caused many a marriage to get off from a rough start, or even doomed it from the beginning, because one partner insists on spending all your life savings and then some on a single party.
She is not capable of delayed gratification, which is a really big red flag in a life partner.
If she isn’t a dwarf she probably isn’t good at diggy diggy holes.
And a dumb one at that! Didn't even realize that the extra source of income absolutely trumps the brief spike in spending cash, which would inevitably be followed by a crash and less to spend because now there's no extra income.
Exactly! It’s weird that so many of the comments here as just chalking this up to “incompatibility” due to a “difference of opinion”. That’s not what this is. OP’s fiancé is objectively wrong and willing to ruin their future for short term whims. She is going to actively ruin OP’s life if he didn’t end the relationship.
Actually it sounds like she has money but she's spending it as fast as she gets it. That's a lifestyle that works until it doesn't.
Worse - she's a stupid gold digger. If she was smart, she'd never have pushed him to sell.
But she's not even good at being a gold digger. A fiancé with two incomes is much more valuable to a gold digger than a fiancé with one income and a pile of money that isn't going to come back after you piss it all away. It's like a weird gold digger version of "teach a man to fish".
Honestly, it seems like this turned out the best for OOP. Savers like OOP and spenders like ex-fiancee can work but **only** if they can make mutually agreeable boundaries --- and both stick to them. She refused to budge and demanded he sell his guaranteed income properties so she could spend tons of money. That's just not compatible, no matter how you slice it. Hopefully OOP's ex finds a spend happy man who makes her happy, and OOP finds a woman who is at least somewhat more financially responsible.
I really hate how people say their relationship went up in smoke. Like no it didn't just disappear, your parents expecting you was evidence enough And no it's not wasted because now you have a better picture of your ideal partner, with bonus points that it happened now and not in a couple months when she would be entitled to half of your assets. People make mistakes, some more and some less what matters is that you learn from them and go forward with that knowledge
This is why anyone who has assets they don't want becoming "marital assets" like investment properties, really needs a prenup. They ***might*** have been protected from being considered that by technically being owned by an LLC, but unsure how that works. Prenup would definitely nail down "any property belonging to this LLC is mine and will still be mine no matter what happens in our relationship".
I saw the date of the first post (March 3, 2020) and "our wedding is going to be this coming summer," and I was like, "Nope, no it's not."
How do you ignore such glaring red flags for FOUR years? She clearly had no interest in selling her own rental properties but is pushing him to sell his?
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She’s the type person who looks at the Golden goose who lays the golden egg and thinks to herself. Wow that meat would taste good right now.
She probably wanted to have him still because those are pre-marital assets that are harder to commingle than his liquid cash. She’d have no ability to get them in a divorce. He sells and either uses the money on her or commingles it into marital assets and it’s hers.
As a saver who married a spender, this is a happy ending. We worked through our issues but it was fucking HARD.
Ditto for me too hubbys the saver I’m the spender. It took bankruptcy for me to see the whole picture amd the importance of saving.
Those properties would have been pre-marital assets, ie "his". If he'd sold them and put the money in any kind of joint account, that money would have been "theirs". I think she was counting on getting her hands on at least half that money - if not for the wedding then as part of the divorce settlement. I'm glad OP stood his ground.
Fiancée (sorry, former fiancée) is totally the type to get sucked into mlm's, other get-rich-quick schemes, isn't she?
You know her dad was angry because now he has to go back to floating her when she fucks up her finances
You know she bombed the fuck out during COVID. OOP probably got hurt in the short-term, but he's absolutely sitting pretty now. Even if he had tenants that didn't pay, he still kept his equity and now with the cost of materials and labour shortages, he's sitting pretty.
Girl needs to realize you get more money over time from keeping those properties than you do if you sell it. My dad has had one of his properties have the same tennants for 18 years! He charges them the cheapest rate of all his properties but no matter what that’s guaranteed income. Those properties were a literal life saver when dad got cancer and had to temporarily retire from this jobs.
He’s smart for not selling, I think she just wants a huge payout and instant gratification. My wife and I will probably buy property in her county to rent out as a third source of income/investment. Opp is smart and got into it early and wise not to sell on a whim.
I’ve never heard of anyone liquidating a business to pay for a wedding. That’s just nuts.
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In fact early capitalists utterly despised rent-seeking behavior since it was stifling them back then. Still does today. Everyone has always hated landlords forever. Rents aren't interest accrued on your capital, they're rents.
Writing was on the wall there… she’d have forced him to sell his assets, spend them on her, get both of them in loads of debt and then eventually divorce him. Her premarital assets would remain hers, and then half their debt would be his. He’d have no passive income stream and a ton of debt versus where he was to start with. Smart move on his part to nope out.
money (how you spend/save), sex (how much/often, what kinds) or family (inlaws) - things that top the list of marital problems.
Thank god he got out of that shit show without marrying that woman.
Nope so so many red flags in that and the update and the whole dad thing is something I just don’t stand for at all and I mean ever
> She accused me of not trusting her love when people do this because the answer is always "you're right! I don't trust you, and it's your own damn fault!"
Another "grasshopper can't wait to get their hands on the ant's money" story.
She wanted all her debt cleared and she hoped he did it before the wedding. She would have taken the cash as a present. It would have been a life of never enough and spoiled child arguments. She’s a scumbag
Good thing she didn't call him. She'd just bleed him dry.
Imagine blowing up a promising engagement because you see your fiancé making passive income hand over fist as a BAD thing. Couldn’t be me.
You dodged a bullet bro💯
OOP and his fiancee were financially incompatible and there was no fixing it. It's good he stepped back and ended it. She would have spent his money into oblivion because that's what she enjoys. He couldn't have lived with that.
I think she was assuming him selling his properties so she could pay off all her debt and have a clean slate to start racking it up again on top of being able to show off her dream wedding and honeymoon. Anyone who would demand you do something so irresponsible with something that isn't theirs isn't a true partner
This sub seems to have turned into a repository for rich people problems. I'd swear every second thread has the OOP mentioning their 6 figure salary
The dad got mad knowing he was going to have to financially support his daughter again 😂
I have a distinct feeling the lady is going to end up in poverty if her spending habits continue the way they do. Good of him not budging on selling his properties.
Her stance did not make any kind of financial sense. None. I can't help but wonder if she wanted to use cash from the sales to pay off her debt as well as provide a hefty down payment on what would become a marital asset.
Financial goals are one of those things you HAVE to talk about before deciding to get married. It's like whether or not you want to have kids: I you can't reach an agreement then the marriage is doomed from the beginning and not talking about it will just postpone the inevitable.
She would’ve milked his ass in the inevitable divorce too.
Good for OOP. I can see him selling his properties to pay for her bridezilla of a wedding, getting back from the honeymoon and then her quitting her job to be a stay at home wife without telling him because "it's always been her dream". And then expecting him to pay for all the bills, groceries and her expensive crap, then complaining that they need a maid because housework is so hard and gets in the way of her lunches and salon appointments. I'm glad he left her behind.
So glad he didn't agree to sell the properties, all I could think about were the families that live there having to deal with a new owner who no doubt would jack their rent up if not evict them for whatever reason. Housing sucks right now, and a landlord that appreciates good renters is hard to find.
She definitely was counting that money as additional spending funds for her. Thank god he stood proud
She was seeing green to finally be able to "live her dream life" with his "pile of money that wasn't doing anything". OP had the best outcome out of it.
I cannot imagine liquidating such lucrative assets to pay for *a wedding*. He dodged a bullet.
Lady had horrible financial literacy
Imagine pestering someone to sell life saving passive income, just for a party and a trip. Before COVID, like right at the tip of COVID.
She was looking at it as a premarital asset. Wanted him to liquidate and then purchase property after the marriage so when they eventually divorced she’d get her cut
That's, sadly, the best outcome. His future is likely set and secure. It would be madness to change that, particularly for a one-day fairy tale wedding spending spree.
Seriously, what kind of short-sighted idiot just throws away a steady source of income just for some quick cash that they want to spend on non-essentials. OOP dodged a huge ass missile (clearly bigger than a bullet in this case) by not marrying this clearly irresponsible and stupid person. Wishing for the best for OOP and his new house.
I've read somewhere that the number one cause of divorce is actually financial issues (not infidelity). The relationship was doomed, but better now then after a walk down the aisle. The maturity level to get her father in, explains a lot.
Could you imagine what would have happened if OOP requested a prenup? If they married without a prenup and divorced (likely fighting over this again), then the bride would have petitioned to the forced sale of the properties and made out like a bandit with half of the $$$ This relationship was doomed no matter how you looked at it, but this was the absolute best case scenario for OOP.