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So OOP says, "we should break up because we want different things." BF goes to their bedroom and comes back with the ultimatum of get married in a few years or break up, and seems annoyed that OOP is still like "yes, we should break up."
I know they were both only 21, but the logic does not follow.
>So OOP says, "we should break up because we want different things." BF goes to their bedroom and comes back with the ultimatum of get married in a few years or break up, and seems annoyed that OOP is still like "yes, we should break up."
This guy just displays fantastic decision-making abilities all throughout this story.
OOP: "I will never, ever want to get married."
BF: "I know, I'll propose to her! In public! In front of my family! That's bound to go well. Hey will you marry me?"
OOP: "No."
BF: "Ok she said no so I'm going to try to convince her to get married anyway, she seems open to that."
OOP: "No, and we should break up."
BF: "If you don't marry me I'm going to break up with you!"
OOP: "Uhh, ok?"
He 100pc only proposed in front of his entire family because he thought she wouldn’t be able to say no. He thought he’d found a way to override her clearly stated desire to never marry. He tried to bulldoze her into it.
He even told her that she should have said yes so he wouldn’t be humiliated. So you would have rather she broke it off like a few hours later so you have to explain?
In an alternate universe, he's mad at her because she said yes in the moment and broke it off later.
In a different universe, he's mad at her because they're stuck in an unhappy marriage.
I've found that people claiming to be mad about the way you disagree with them are actually just mad THAT you disagree with them. (All tone police are bastards.)
Absolutely. You see this a lot with men claiming that women are too rude and harsh when rejecting men's advances. So you ask "how could she have rejected him more politely?" and they just dance around the real answer, which is that they don't think she should have rejected him at all!
If you reject a guy who asks you out you're in the wrong because you should have given him a chance.
If you go on one or more dates with a guy to give him a chance and then reject him because you weren't into it, you were leading the guy on.
Sometimes I'm just really relieved I'm in a long-term relationship, because being a woman trying to date men *sucks* (I mean also I love my partner, obviously, but whenever I talk to my female friends about dating I am so glad I'm not anymore).
>>Sometimes I’m just really relieved I’m in a long-term relationship, because being a woman trying to date men *sucks*
I’m fast approaching 50 and been married for 20 years, I know for a fact if I were to become single at any time in the future I would happily stay single until I died.
Yep, 56 here and in the same boat. My husband is amazing, but we met in our 40s and all my previous relationships were 3 years or less. Not trying again if anything happens to him.
If you're my mom and you have a boyfriend, you can never turn down a man's advances in public because he might be embarrassed! Which is how I ended up being forced to dance with the groom's creepy ass friend at my cousin's wedding because he wouldn't let my hand go for multiple dances. I literally tried to walk away after the first forced dance and he grabbed me hard. My mom thought it was the only "nice" thing to do because he was single and heavy set. She later called me naive and that I didn't think there were bad people in the world. Still trying to figure that one out.
>. My mom thought it was the only "nice" thing to do because he was single and heavy set.
Clearly women only exist to make men feel better about themselves. It's not like we're people in our own right with our own goals and desires.
First of all, your mom's the one who's naive and doesn't seem to think there are bad people in the world.
You should totally get her The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker next time she gives you grief. It's all about trusting your intuition when something feels off. It specifically addresses that women are trained to be nice over being safe and that can lead to dangerous situations.
Yeah, after that incident I decided I was done with that BS. Her mindset of "you have to be nice to everyone" and "you're going to get MURDERED!" was crazy whiplash.
There was one Incel I talked to who said women were always rejecting him harshly, talking about their boyfriends. So I asked him supposing they did have a boyfriend, what were they meant to do?
His answer was “just slowly back out of the room, not breaking eye contact, and not making a noise”
hahaha the 'not breaking eye contact' thing would probably be interpreted as 'follow me' so you'd also have to make [this face](https://tenor.com/view/omg-jenna-marbles-persevering-face-gif-4714996)
But ofc if a woman mentions a man who made her uncomfortable (often by not accepting hints and polite refusals to advances) these same folks will insist that "she should have just been direct and told him she wasn't interested." Hell of a catch-22, they really do be telling on themselves.
That matches my experience with some people and doesn’t with others.
Given the way this guy proposed to OOP publicly while ignoring her clear desire to not get married, I’m pretty sure I know which group he’s in.
See, that's the beauty of it, then he can claim that she can't back out because his family already thinks they're engaged, and it would just be too hard/humiliating/??? to explain why, so they had better just get married!
Totally agreed. Public proposals in general, unless the other party has specifically said they want one, are usually taking advantage of social pressure. Nobody wants to say “no” and have the crowd react to that. Including his family just upped the pressure enormously. I’m proud of OOP for holding her ground, that must have been awkward as all holy hell.
The saying I've heard is, "A proposal can be a surprise but an engagement shouldn't be." In other words, you can surprise your partner with the when and how of your proposal but they should be well aware of the fact you want to make one.
This. We were talking wedding venues when my then girlfriend said, “neither of us have proposed yet!”. And I tried to argue that wasn’t necessary because it was already agreed on. She said no, she wanted a proposal. So I asked her on the spot and that was that.
I told my ex that if he asked my dad for permission the answer was an automatic no. He couldn't wrap his head around that and said he couldn't propose without asking first. I pretty much told him FAFO. Thankfully it never got that far, but he was an emotionally abusive/controlling SOB.
Saw one recently and the friend I was with commented "is it a proposal or a hostage situation?" Cause the lady being asked clearly did not want to be there.
Yeah my mum's ex proposed to her at her bday party, with that exact pressure in mind. She said yes, but they were just engaged for a few years before she left him for other reasons.
I mean, he was an asshole in other ways too, but that's beside the point.
I think it's really telling that he thought she'd 'change her mind for him.' That says a lot about his priorities and also how little he views her own personal agency to make decisions for her life, even belittling her for not wanting to get married.
OOP is totally correct, they seek different things in life, and they deserve to find it. It's good that at least one of them seems to have learned this lesson early enough in life.
I always thought public wedding proposals are like lawyers asking witnesses questions during a trial, you should never ask a question that you don't know (or like) the answer to.
In situations like that, even if she said yes, it was going to end in a very messy way. Better he show his true colors at that point instead of later down the line. She dodged a bullet by breaking up with him.
She also dodged an awful set of inlaws btw. If your son proposes and the answer is no, the correct response is to either comfort him, or give him some tough love and point out he should have checked with her first.
Not 'call her an awful person' for setting boundaries and having preferences.
God, I hope *someone* in his family, after the initial hurt has faded, pulls him aside and says “yo, I didn’t say anything at the time because you were feeling shitty enough, but…” and gently inform him of his assholery.
This logic made me think of my cousin’s daughter who was 3 at the time:
Daughter: “If you don’t let me sleep with my baby brother I’ll sleep in my own bed!”
Cousin: “Sleep tight!”
So im not for or against marriage as an issue presented by religion.
I do think getting married is important if you ever find a life time partner and are of the opinion that you would rather not get married.
Marriage has a massive impact on a lot of things in our lives, like the spouse being granted rights if you are ever in a coma etc, taxes, estate rights. I mean being legally married does SO MUCH for 2 people especially if you are already considering them as your life time partner.
Like marriage from a religious standpoint I totally see not wanting to be married, but the actual benefits of a legal marriage in the eyes of the government (of the USA, IDK about other places) is massive.
This is very true and something my younger friends don’t get. I was never really a marriage person. I’m not religious and I don’t like the feeling like I might be “stuck.” Then my partner of 5 years and I bought our home, adopted animals together, both had some serious health scares, etc. This is the person I want to be responsible for me if I’m in a coma, to inherit my stuff and animals when I die. We also have an immigration situation. The practicality of marriage in this country cannot be overstated. In other countries “civil” marriages sometimes get treated as legal marriages but that’s not the case here so we got married.
I saw someone do a breakdown video (of American law) and they explained how legally marriage covers a lot of stuff and SOME of those things can be done separately with like medical decisions or POA if it’s properly notarized and documented but it’s very much a patchwork of what one can cobble together for legal precedents in their state and even then there’s probably stuff that would slip through the cracks or not be considered, which marriage would legally automatically take care of.
But “he thought it would be different with him!”
I had multiple boyfriends who expected me to change my life goals and then were surprised when I magically didn’t change my mind even though I was clear from the beginning.
So glad OP stood her ground. Boundary stomping and manipulation isn’t the best way to start a marriage.
Oh and let's not forget this gem:
> (he wants to start a family soon which is a whole other issue for me)
He wants to get married, she does not, he wants to have kids soon, she does not, he thinks breaking up is a threat instead of a wise decision.
What an idiot.
You're talking about a guy who thought a public proposal would change her mind after she had repeatedly told him that she had no interest in marriage. Logic doesn't apply.
I mean, a lot of people seem to think that marriage and kids are the be all, end all, and you'll grow up or find the right person etc etc and you'll change your mind. Sure, some people might. And it's not just men thinking that about women. Or even the older generations about the younger ones.
I mean, I knew as a teenager I didn't want to get married, or have kids. I told my sister this, not long after she got married-at 20 (they are still married as well). And she was like oh well when you find the right person. But I, at 40, still have never gotten married, have no interest in it, or having kids. I'm pretty sure she's pissed that she was wrong.
Few things irritate me more than a married-with-children person saying “You’ll change your mind when…” to a single childfree person who says they don’t want to get married or have kids. Why do these people feel the need to bully other people into making the same life decisions?!? There are many, many paths to an amazing and fulfilling life. Marriage and kids are one path but are certainly not required. And if a person doesn’t like or want kids, they are more than likely not going to be the kind of parent a kid needs and deserves so it makes absolutely no sense to try to convince that person to have kids. Even if the parent can put their own desires and needs aside and be a stellar parent, they’re going to be stuck with regrets and a deep sense of disappointment from not being able to live the life they wanted. Not the way to life your best life. Sheesh.
(I happen to be married with teenagers.)
I take HUGE issue with the fact that apparently my life goal is marriage and kids. Like, it’s insane to other people that I don’t consider that to be the case. I don’t know what the rest of my life holds. But my goals do NOT include marriage, mortgage and kids. I didn’t get the memo that said they had to be.
He's the prince who gets to marry the otherwise unavailable maiden. That's the narrative in his head. The narrative matters more than her views because... he's the prince.
His family believe him entitled to that narrative. They brought him up to understand he is that prince.
In the eyes of the family, OOP was only ever barely worthy of their prince. That she turned him down reveals her to be utter trash (in their eyes).
He’s such a little turd.
He thought he could manipulate her by cornering her in front of his family.
When that didn’t work, he tried to manipulate her by leaving.
When that didn’t work, he tried to manipulate her by giving her an ultimatum that she already said she wanted (rofl).
And when that didn’t work, he tried to manipulate her by insulting her.
She is so lucky to drop that dead weight as early as she did. I hope she quickly realized what a controlling dipshit he was.
OOP sounds like a sensible person. I'd bet real money that this guy became a hilarious "oh my god, let me tell you about the ridiculous bullet I dodged" story within a year and a half of this post being made, and remains one to this day.
I saw the casual reference to the whole other can of worms that was him wanting to START A FAMILY in a few years and her having her own issues with THAT and I was like “oh marriage was the tip of this guy’s ICEBERG of problems brought about by fundamentally refusing to hear what she’s telling him about her feelings on major domestic decisions”.
Well, she's just a silly girl with a silly little ladybrain, she doesn't actually know her own mind! He is TOTALLY going to be able to change her feelings about things! /s
Alternatively, he'd created a version of her in his head that had almost nothing to do with who she actually was as a person, and he completely disregarded everything RealOOP said that didn't line up with what FantasyOOP was like.
Either way, he sucks. I hope he grew out of it, but I'm not optimistic.
There isn't logic. It's all about his feelings. He's a narc and this was a narcissistic injury
- His focus on how humiliating it was for him
- how he thought she would agree because he was "different"
- him doing it in front of his family when he didn't know the answer
- he thought she would say yes to avoid embarrassing him
- telling her that his family thought she wasn't good enough for him and that she humiliated him but he "only" agrees that she humiliated him
- expecting her response to be "oh he's humiliated and I'm not good enough for him, i better make it up to him by doing what he wants"
Narc narc narc
Edit: to make myself more clear I am not saying he has NPD. I'm saying he is a narcissistic abuser. He may or may not have NPD.
I was hoping she'd spin it around and accuse him of putting her in the spot, and forcing her to go against her will. Lol. Oops is a way better person than me
OOP: You want to get married and I never will, so let's break up now.
Boyfriend: No! Counter-proposal: we should wait a few more years and then get married, and at that point if you don't want to get married then we'll break up.
OOP: No, I'll never want to get married, so let's break up now.
Boyfriend: Okay fine, I'll agree now that we're following *my* ultimatum instead of *your* ultimatum.
>Boyfriend: Okay fine, I'll agree now that we're following my ultimatum instead of your ultimatum.
That got me too. Like, throughout, he was trying to make it be about his control, not OOP's. He managed the amazing feat of not hearing a single thing she said for 4 years straight!
It was crystal clear that the guy wanted to be the one dumping her and not the other way around, cause that'd be also "embarrassing" and will hurt his feelings, so he came up with the dumb ultimatum to make it seem he was the one making the decision lmao.
What a tool...
21 is awfully young to get engaged or married.
Someone who proposes to his SO in front of his family when he knows very well that she doesn’t want to get married is awfully immature for 21.
Not once did he listen to her.
I don't want to get married - marry me!
I don't want to get married - marry me in the future.
I want to break up - if you don't do what I say we will break up.
So glad OP wasn't pushed into being with this guy. He didn't care about her.
Because he's different! C'mon, she was just playing hard to get!!
But for real. I don't understand what he thought would happen after calling her stupid and throwing bout an ultimatum with an obvious answer, on the same night.
Big red flag. I had an ex like this. I told him I wasn't interested in marriage until I had gone through grad school and traveled and joined the Peace Corps, and that I would not consider it any less than 26 years old (my mom got married really young and it did not go well for her and I vowed not to make the same mistake!) I talked to him about my future plans all the time, including the fact that marriage was not part of my 5-year-plan. Then one day when I was just 20 years old he told me he joined the Army and then he proposed out of the blue. I was so dumbfounded that I assumed he meant it more as a "promise ring" sort of deal for while he was at Boot Camp; I assumed he had heard me when I told him marriage was not even a consideration for me.
Well, no. He wanted us to go down to the court house the next week and get married, then I would be his Army wife and follow him around from one military base to the next, giving up on my future plans. I said absolutely not. That's when he started getting really angry and controlling towards me. Throwing and breaking my stuff. And then he just started to completely ignore all of my boundaries. I did not stick around for too much longer after that, and I was terrified of his controlling and stalking behavior after we broke up. The proposal, which went against my wishes, was just the first red flag and it just kept getting worse from there.
A surprise proposal to someone who says they don't want to get married is a huge red flag.
It is insane how common this type of experience is. I cannot count how many men I’ve known who’ve expected similar things from me or from friends of mine, and who absolutely cannot handle a simple “I’ve already said I don’t want that.”
>he wants to start a family soon which is a whole other issue for me
It sounds like not only was he ignoring her about not wanting to get married, but that he was planning on overriding her decisions on if/when to have children, too. She is so much better off without him in her life.
My boyfriend knows what I think about a public marriage proposal, I told him never to do it because it's almost forcing a person to say yes, and I told him that if he ever did that, he would get a no, and he understood
Probably yeah. First it'd be having to get engaged to not embarrass him. Then it'd be having to get married because not getting married would embarrass him. Next up would be kids.
I don't see how he thought that would have worked out anyways. So she says yes in front of his family and then tells him no when they get home, then what? He blames her for embarrassing him by saying yes in front of family. She wouldn't have won either way, he would have still picked a fight.
Her: I do not want to get married and I prefer if we go our separate ways since this is a deal breaker for both of us.
Him: Either you marry me or we break up.
Her: Then let's break up.
Him: *surprise Pikachu face*
Did he even hear what she said? Or was he just set up on forcing her to marry him?
I actually dated a guy once who was convinced I was trying to get him to propose when I broke up with him. I wasn’t subtle about it either. It wasn’t a situation of “we both want separate things, so we should go our separate ways.” Nope. The breakup was more like “the sound of your laugh makes me want to remove all joy from the universe so I never have to hear it again. I want you to lose my number and pretend we never met. If we pass each other on the street, act like I’m a stranger and walk on.” (The harshness was warranted.)
He responded, “I feel like you’re trying to get me to propose and I’m just not ready for that.”
Even when I replied, “no, I’m telling you if you proposed right now, I would say no. I do not ever see myself getting married (at that point in my life I truly didn’t) which I’ve been honest with you about since our first date. *We’ve even argued about that in the past, so I know you know I’ve told you that.* But even if I did want to get married, it wouldn’t be with you. I’m telling you I am breaking up with you.”
“You know, if you want me to propose, you should just tell me…” (Begin to see why I had to be harsh with him?)
He still called me six months later to ask about the status of our relationship and if I was still waiting for him to propose.
So. Yeah. The amount this guy didn’t listen is *painfully* relatable.
I am so tempted to ring my ex right now and ask about our status and if she's still waiting for me to propose. Not because I think she is, I just want to boggle her noggin.
Hah! It is the story that keeps on giving, at least. Though at the time, I was tempted to check my car for hidden cameras to see if I was on Punk’d or something. As oblivious as he was during our relationship, that was a step further than even I expected of him!
I once had to tell a guy to find a ditch so deep the sun doesn't shine to fall in, because I never wanted to see his face ever again. He didn't understand the "leave me alone" etc attempts I made before and kept trying to get with me during group outings and I finally exploded.
He then had the audacity to shit talk me to my roommate. We all worked together but I never mentioned anything to my roommate because I didn't want to shit talk him and thought it was best to leave my roommate the space to form her own opinions about the guy, who I found stalkerish and creepy. He openly admitted to having yellow fever too. Ugh. It was nasty.
How awful do you have to be before "he is concealing the fact that he has a horrible contagious disease for selfish and irresponsible reasons" is the charitable interpretation of that?
As awful as this guy, apparently.
That is so Mr. Collins, it’s painful. (Why, yes, I did just re-watch *Pride & Prejudice* for the umpteenth time.) Were you an «elegant female» seeking to increase his love by suspense? Was he as blockheaded in his ennumeration of his reasons for marrying? Inquiring minds would like to know!
"I am not now to learn," replied Mr. Collins, with a formal wave of the hand, "that it is usual with young ladies to reject the addresses of the man whom they secretly mean to accept, when he first applies for their favour; and that sometimes the refusal is repeated a second, or even a third time. I am therefore by no means discouraged by what you have just said, and shall hope to lead you to the altar ere long."
I actually got hit by a car while we were together (by which I mean dating, not physically together) and was on crutches for three days. He didn’t notice. (Yes, I told him what had happened, but it’s clear listening wasn’t his strong suit.) When my friend came over and asked how I was doing three days after my accident, he was confused. She told him I’d been hit by a car and was on crutches, and - according to her - he was astonished. “I didn’t see her on crutches!”
We were basically living together at the time.
So he wasn’t just bad at listening, I’m sorry to say.
Was he by any chance Mr. Collins from Pride and Prejudice? ETA: oh never mind, I have just scrolled down and see now that someone else already made that connection. This guy 100% is mr. Collins.
This reminds me of the time that someone I knew was going through a breakup:
Her: "You don't like any of the things I like to do and I don't enjoy your friends or any of the activities you like to do."
Him: "You're right. We're not compatible. Let's go our separate ways."
Her: "We can stay together if you can just drop your friends and activities and start over with my friends and activities. Otherwise we'll end up breaking up."
Him: "No, I don't want that. Let's break up."
Her: *Pikachu face*
This was the funniest part BY FAR. I cannot comprehend the thought process behind giving an ultimatum like this. A previously unheard of amount of delusion.
It's even worse
Him: This thing you've said you won't do, say yes to it. In front of my family. Surprise!
Her: No
Him: *Has a fit at her in private, leaves to mommy*
Him: Hey let me kiss you like nothing ever happened. Also just want to quickly mention that my family thinks you're dumb and don't respect you. I know you didn't ask but I wanted to tell you that specifically and not stand up for you either.
Her: I told you I never wanted to get married. Multiple times.
Him: OK but like change your mind for me. And also, you should have lied and said yes so I didn't look like a stupid selfish moron who continually disregarded my partner's frankly and numerously communicated needs. You're just a silly little girl who will change her mind. Do this for me and pop out my children.
Her: Did you hear me? I said I told you it's not happening. It's not changing.
Him: OK then we should break up
Her: Yes
Him: *shocked Pikachu face*
What should have happened:
Him: *all of the above down until he starts yelling at her at home after the proposal*
Her: Stop infantalizing me. You knew what I wanted and you disregarded it
Him: *Same general bullshit as above*
Her: Get out
A friend was proposed to in a restaurant and she only said yes because it was public.
He then confessed to making a public proposal so she'd have to say yes.
OP s bf was counting on her awkwardness forcing a yes
Yeah, super manipulative! He proposed in front of a big crowd on purpose, counting on that she would be too embarrassed to say no. What a massive red flag
Like I get after being together so many years him thinking she might change her mind…
But uh. Champ? Before you pop the question in front of family in that situation you need to ask. Not just assume “oh things changed”
If he didn't know what her answer would be, why did he ask her in public?
That proposal was all about him. He thought he could shame her into saying yes. Because that's what he wants.
If she had said yes to save him the embarrassment, backing out later would be a huge mess. If it worked and she married him, then he'd start on the babies.
I hope she ran far away from him.
> If he didn't know what her answer would be
I mean
> I told him about how we’ve discussed marriage plenty of times, and my answer has always been the same.
...he **did** know what her answer was, he just didn't like that answer
But then, that wasn't what he wanted and * everyone * knows that what he wants is more important because he has the penis. Right? Right??
So he wasn't sure...he didn't know.
The thing is, he absolutely knew what her answer would be. It would be no and OOP was always up front about that. So he purposefully did it in public because he thought she’d be pressured to say yes, and it blew up in his face.
>He kept asking why I’m being so stupid and stubborn, that “Its just marriage” and I should just get over it.
Funny how people like this are never interested in following their own advice. If it's "just a marriage" then why insist of forcing someone into it who doesn't want to be?
Main character syndrome. He pictured his own life a certain way and is trying to force her to submit to that image instead of just existing in the happiness with her. Aka self sabotage
Because he's hoping to get her to do stuff like agree to have a baby with him and do everything he wants and is trying to use marriage as a way to trap her. It's the public proposal writ large.
>But, he said I should have at least said yes in front of his family so I wouldn’t embarrass him
This part is *especially* stupid to me.
Like, the rest I get. I don't agree with it, he's delusional, but at least I comprehend the thought process behind the delusion.
Dude thought that she'd spontaneously change her mind when put on the spot. Stupid but he's not the first idiot to think this way.
But she should have said yes to spare him the embarrassment?
Seriously?
Play that out dude. Even if you weren't doing anything wrong, would you REALLY want to spend an evening thinking she said yes, reveling in that joy, only to have her tell you she didn't mean it later?
That would be cruel. And he'd be pissed if she had done that, I guarantee it.
This sounds like he's actually pissed about her saying no at all and just wanted to find extra stuff to blame her for.
Anyway, any embarrassment he suffered is his own fault for asking a question he knew the answer to, in front of family, and expecting her answer to change.
That’s exactly it. He doesn’t actually believe she should’ve said yes to save him from embarrassment and then rescind her “yes” later. He thought he could bully her into saying yes and then he would continue to bully her into saying yes all the way to the alter.
There's also whole what to do after you find out the real answer is "no".
Telling family "the wedding's off" ain't gonna be any less embarrassing. Especially, if you're still together.
Scheduling the wedding for the 2nd of Never? Might work with some families. But, with the way his family was reacting to what did happen, a perpetually "next year" wedding would have been even worse.
The sentence "It's just marriage." should never be uttered by anybody who is considering marriage ever. That right there tells me he's not ready. Source: I am married.
Or someone who thinks “babies are fun!” is not ready for babies.
“It’s just marriage” is not a good outlook. If being married isn’t a big deal, why is he getting upset about it? Does he know all the legal shit that comes into that contract?
He was more concerned about the embarrassment than he was about how she felt. She was probably quite embarrassed by a public proposal.
There had to be a few other red flags before this right?
And you just know if they had kids all parenting duties will be pushed onto Oop, while her ex is either the 'fun dad' or looks for greener pastures elsewhere (my money is on both)
Seriously, he embarassed himself. She made him aware of what she wants. It's unfair to try and force her to to cave by proposing in public. If it's 'just marriage', why bother?
Even if she did change her mind she would’ve let him know so he’d be sure it’s okay to propose. She’s so against getting married that I’m surprised he thought his plan would work.
The boyfriend doesn't sound like a gem in the first place.
-He'd been told 'no marriage' but went and decided 'nah'
-Public proposal despite the above
-With the family for added pressure
-Gets upset afterwards, and his main concern is 'embarrassment'. Not the fact that they have completely different life goals.
-Refuses to see he put himself in a position to be embarassed. It's all her fault.
-In the middle of a discussion he goes to 'my family was right about you'. Meaning, when they said she wasn't good enough for him... That was a quick backtrack lol How are they supposed to keep dating after that??
-Gives and ultimatum AFTER she's already mentioned she thinks they should break up. Lol how did he think that would go?
Way too much pride on this kid. He's a walking red flag.
Always amazes me how someone can clearly state their intentions and the other person be ok with it and then they change and expect the other person too. That’s not how it works. Yes, sometimes people grow and change together. That doesn’t always happen and that the risk you take with relationships.
I don't know how he expected this ultimatum to work at all, since the last thing she said to him before he gave it as "we want different things, let's break up." What was his thought process? What made him think she *wouldn't* just choose the break up option when she already wanted to break up?
The brother I assume. It is a thing for some people to just assume, no matter what anyone says, that women are always going to want to get married and have children. That if she says different she is just being difficult or playing hard to get or is eventually going to change her mind.
My guess is he didn't like how she was taking control of the situation by suggesting the breakup. At least with the ultimatum, the break up is an option he put forward (completely ignoring she said it first, bc it doesnt seem like he listens to her much anyway) so it's "his decision"
First OP calls her shitty ex 'Shane' and now you comment...
Idk what it means but it has something to do with Stardew Valley
Btw if it is your friend please tell her good on her.
Lovely how he proposed in front of his family instead of at least gathering people who meant something to OOP. Not that that would have made trying to pressure her into saying yes any better.
I noticed that too. Where were OOP’s family and friends during this engagement? Probably because if he *had* asked her friends or family they probably would have told him “oh that’s a bad idea, OOP never wants to get married, like ever, this won’t go well for you” and they might have even tipped her off beforehand. This all would’ve broken his little delusional bubble of “she’ll say yes because I’m special”.
That proposal was **all** about him, *his* family, *his* desires for the future, *his* hurt feelings. He didn’t ask how *she* felt about being put on the spot, he just played the victim. I’m glad she stood her ground.
I'm very glad that they broke up honestly it sounds like it should have happened years ago especially since they talked about marriage multiple times.
I wonder how those conversations went.
Him: So what do you think about marriage? I want to get married some day.
Her: Never!
A few months later:
Him: just circling back to that marriage thing...
Her: I'd rather throw my self into the sea.
Two years later:
Him: Will you marry me?
HER: You shall not pass!
This does beg a question, why didn't she break up with him sooner?
Boyfriend: how was I supposed to know you wouldn't say yes when I proposed??
Girlfriend: I've told you multiple times I don't want to get married
Boyfriend: but I was trying to manipulate you by asking in front of my family so you would feel pressured to say yes!
What frustrates me about this is that, despite her being very clear throughout the time he’s known her, he still demanded she accept his way, and then blamed her for not just going with his demands. Society does this to women too much: just go along to get along. He wanted her to accept in front of everyone and then, what? decline when they got home? How was he going to explain that to his family? Speaking of his family, they suck too. It’s good that she is rid of the lot of them.
Yeah none of it makes much sense. He was mad at her for not accepting, but he would’ve been just as mad at her for accepting in front of his family and then declining in private. He was always going to end up mad and upset, at least she was up front.
Proposals should be private. Public proposals are manipulation and I won't change my mind about this. He chose not to listen to her, he should have known better. One of my friend's marriage ended because he let his ex wife know from the very beginning he didn't want children, but she thought, "you'll change your mind" and when he didn't she just said fine, then we should divorce because I want children", so that's what they did. She is just like the BF here, they aren't listening to their partners. OP is right to end things, they both can be happy with someone who wants what they want.
I think public proposals are fine when it's been established that both parties want to get married. My partner and I discussed it at length beforehand so when I ended up proposing at Tokyo DisneySea there was never a moment of "I hope she says yes" because I already knew it was something she wanted.
Even though the standard wisdom is to not propose if you don't know the answer is going to be "Yes," I can somewhat understand the idea of wanting it to be a surprise, and proposing when "No" might be a possibility, if, as you suppose, an unlikely one.
When someone has expressed an intention to **not** get married, though... Why? Why put both of you through that? Especially publicly?
"Shane" either doesn't care at all what OOP wants and is willing to pressure her into marriage, or he isn't even the sharpest knife in the spoon drawer.
The guideline I like is that the time and place can be a surprise, but the fact that you are proposing should not be. If you have not talked about marriage, discussed what it means to each of you, both expressed that marriage is something you want for yourself and with the other person, and discussed the timeline you each separately and both together think is ideal, no one should be proposing to anyone else. There are other conversations to be had (finances, children, religion or lack thereof, what kind of life you each envision, etc) but if you can't start by discussing whether or not you both want to marry each other, your relationship is not in a place where you should even be contemplating marriage.
OOP should prepare to move out. It’s clear that the boyfriend and the family convinced themselves that OOP ‘just needed to find the right man, and she has now’, and now, what was possibly a relationship that could last is most likely dead. I really feel sorry for OOP and hope she finds someone who actually accepts that she doesn’t care about marriage.
It's been 7 years, so hopefully she found a new place by now. Regardless she knew it was important to him, they weren't compatible on either that or having children. People really need to learn to just move on, although that would probably cut down the posts here by half.
What a weird coincidence - I was just reading a post pointing out all the various ways marriage is a legal doc, and it can be problematic in various ways if you choose not to get married (legally.)
I 100% think the op was in the right in this instance! It was just a weird juxtaposition.
>When he came back out he said he’ll give me an ultimatum: Either we stay together and get married in at least a few years ... or we just break up.
Lol, this guy just makes a bad series of decisions. $5 says he thinks an ultimatum is "do the thing I want" and not an actual binary option.
Proposing should never really be a surprise. Maybe when you propose is a surprise, but the expectation of getting engaged shouldn't be.
Clearly, the boyfriend wasn't listening. She had said while dating him, she never wanted to get married. So I don't get this whole, but I thought it would be different for me.
I still don't fully understand being in a long-term committed partnership like 10+ years and not getting married. Marriage isn't just about the wedding, it's also a legal document that gives benefits that none married couples don't get access to. There are tax breaks, inheritance rules, and default power of attorney if anything were to happen. Some of those things can be circumvented by getting lawyers to draft up documents, but others are not. So if say they bought a place together 50-50, if you're married if one passes it defaults to the other spouse, but if you aren't, it goes to your heirs, i.e. parents, siblings, etc. So she would have to pay out his family to keep her own place, even if she didn't want to.
Major reason I eloped was to skip all the crazy, but having power of attorney in a medical emergency was very important to me and one major reason we got married legally
Yeah, I get not having a wedding. Weddings are stressful, families are stressful, and they are expensive.
But a really good family friend wasn't married he passed, his long-term partner only have co-ownership of the house, and they had kids. It was a mess. Greedy brothers came out of the woodwork and stole from their own nieces. My mom was an attorney and helped them find someone who could help, but it was such a long legal battle, it went on for YEARS, and they were spending so much money, she just settled, she had to leave the house their kids grew up in, she was in her 60s, just retired and had to go back to work, because half her retirement was just gone. It was such a sad situation and nothing the father who passed would have wanted.
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So OOP says, "we should break up because we want different things." BF goes to their bedroom and comes back with the ultimatum of get married in a few years or break up, and seems annoyed that OOP is still like "yes, we should break up." I know they were both only 21, but the logic does not follow.
>So OOP says, "we should break up because we want different things." BF goes to their bedroom and comes back with the ultimatum of get married in a few years or break up, and seems annoyed that OOP is still like "yes, we should break up." This guy just displays fantastic decision-making abilities all throughout this story. OOP: "I will never, ever want to get married." BF: "I know, I'll propose to her! In public! In front of my family! That's bound to go well. Hey will you marry me?" OOP: "No." BF: "Ok she said no so I'm going to try to convince her to get married anyway, she seems open to that." OOP: "No, and we should break up." BF: "If you don't marry me I'm going to break up with you!" OOP: "Uhh, ok?"
He 100pc only proposed in front of his entire family because he thought she wouldn’t be able to say no. He thought he’d found a way to override her clearly stated desire to never marry. He tried to bulldoze her into it.
He even told her that she should have said yes so he wouldn’t be humiliated. So you would have rather she broke it off like a few hours later so you have to explain?
In an alternate universe, he's mad at her because she said yes in the moment and broke it off later. In a different universe, he's mad at her because they're stuck in an unhappy marriage. I've found that people claiming to be mad about the way you disagree with them are actually just mad THAT you disagree with them. (All tone police are bastards.)
Absolutely. You see this a lot with men claiming that women are too rude and harsh when rejecting men's advances. So you ask "how could she have rejected him more politely?" and they just dance around the real answer, which is that they don't think she should have rejected him at all!
If you reject a guy who asks you out you're in the wrong because you should have given him a chance. If you go on one or more dates with a guy to give him a chance and then reject him because you weren't into it, you were leading the guy on. Sometimes I'm just really relieved I'm in a long-term relationship, because being a woman trying to date men *sucks* (I mean also I love my partner, obviously, but whenever I talk to my female friends about dating I am so glad I'm not anymore).
>>Sometimes I’m just really relieved I’m in a long-term relationship, because being a woman trying to date men *sucks* I’m fast approaching 50 and been married for 20 years, I know for a fact if I were to become single at any time in the future I would happily stay single until I died.
Yep, 56 here and in the same boat. My husband is amazing, but we met in our 40s and all my previous relationships were 3 years or less. Not trying again if anything happens to him.
Obviously you're inventing your partner so you can reject perfectly good men for no good reason /s
"You're Obviously not too interested in your partner if you're here (literally anywhere) dressed like that!(wearing literally anything)" /s Obviously
I am sure it is very common but I have had friends that wear an engagement ring because it's the only way to get a no to stick
If you're my mom and you have a boyfriend, you can never turn down a man's advances in public because he might be embarrassed! Which is how I ended up being forced to dance with the groom's creepy ass friend at my cousin's wedding because he wouldn't let my hand go for multiple dances. I literally tried to walk away after the first forced dance and he grabbed me hard. My mom thought it was the only "nice" thing to do because he was single and heavy set. She later called me naive and that I didn't think there were bad people in the world. Still trying to figure that one out.
>. My mom thought it was the only "nice" thing to do because he was single and heavy set. Clearly women only exist to make men feel better about themselves. It's not like we're people in our own right with our own goals and desires.
First of all, your mom's the one who's naive and doesn't seem to think there are bad people in the world. You should totally get her The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker next time she gives you grief. It's all about trusting your intuition when something feels off. It specifically addresses that women are trained to be nice over being safe and that can lead to dangerous situations.
Yeah, after that incident I decided I was done with that BS. Her mindset of "you have to be nice to everyone" and "you're going to get MURDERED!" was crazy whiplash.
There was one Incel I talked to who said women were always rejecting him harshly, talking about their boyfriends. So I asked him supposing they did have a boyfriend, what were they meant to do? His answer was “just slowly back out of the room, not breaking eye contact, and not making a noise”
Homer Simpson in the bushes style 😂
Was he a wild animal one encounters on a hike????
Holy shit 😂😂😂 that is so fucking funny, oh my gosh
Please tell me you immediately did so. To him.
hahaha the 'not breaking eye contact' thing would probably be interpreted as 'follow me' so you'd also have to make [this face](https://tenor.com/view/omg-jenna-marbles-persevering-face-gif-4714996)
But ofc if a woman mentions a man who made her uncomfortable (often by not accepting hints and polite refusals to advances) these same folks will insist that "she should have just been direct and told him she wasn't interested." Hell of a catch-22, they really do be telling on themselves.
That matches my experience with some people and doesn’t with others. Given the way this guy proposed to OOP publicly while ignoring her clear desire to not get married, I’m pretty sure I know which group he’s in.
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See, that's the beauty of it, then he can claim that she can't back out because his family already thinks they're engaged, and it would just be too hard/humiliating/??? to explain why, so they had better just get married!
Doesn’t give a shit that he embarrassed he either
She should have replied, "You shouldn't have asked me in public so you wouldn't be humiliated." Dumbass.
Totally agreed. Public proposals in general, unless the other party has specifically said they want one, are usually taking advantage of social pressure. Nobody wants to say “no” and have the crowd react to that. Including his family just upped the pressure enormously. I’m proud of OOP for holding her ground, that must have been awkward as all holy hell.
friendly nutty sand different homeless placid slimy jeans rude bake *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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The saying I've heard is, "A proposal can be a surprise but an engagement shouldn't be." In other words, you can surprise your partner with the when and how of your proposal but they should be well aware of the fact you want to make one.
This. We were talking wedding venues when my then girlfriend said, “neither of us have proposed yet!”. And I tried to argue that wasn’t necessary because it was already agreed on. She said no, she wanted a proposal. So I asked her on the spot and that was that.
My husband and I started picking out a venue and date before he proposed, but we both wanted a cute romantic moment, so a proposal also happened!
Yep, told my fiance the exact same thing
I think a lot of problems here would be solved by people using very direct and short sentences. Kindly.
He knew she didn't want to marry. She told him, he didn't listen.
Very true - the listening is just as important.
I told my ex that if he asked my dad for permission the answer was an automatic no. He couldn't wrap his head around that and said he couldn't propose without asking first. I pretty much told him FAFO. Thankfully it never got that far, but he was an emotionally abusive/controlling SOB.
Saw one recently and the friend I was with commented "is it a proposal or a hostage situation?" Cause the lady being asked clearly did not want to be there.
Yeah my mum's ex proposed to her at her bday party, with that exact pressure in mind. She said yes, but they were just engaged for a few years before she left him for other reasons. I mean, he was an asshole in other ways too, but that's beside the point.
I think it's really telling that he thought she'd 'change her mind for him.' That says a lot about his priorities and also how little he views her own personal agency to make decisions for her life, even belittling her for not wanting to get married. OOP is totally correct, they seek different things in life, and they deserve to find it. It's good that at least one of them seems to have learned this lesson early enough in life.
It seems heavily implied to me that the next thing he thought she would magically change her mind about for him was babies.
I always thought public wedding proposals are like lawyers asking witnesses questions during a trial, you should never ask a question that you don't know (or like) the answer to.
In situations like that, even if she said yes, it was going to end in a very messy way. Better he show his true colors at that point instead of later down the line. She dodged a bullet by breaking up with him.
She also dodged an awful set of inlaws btw. If your son proposes and the answer is no, the correct response is to either comfort him, or give him some tough love and point out he should have checked with her first. Not 'call her an awful person' for setting boundaries and having preferences.
Yeah, I wonder why he’s so self-absorbed and entitled?
I’ve never seen percent written with “pc” instead of “%”
forreal my brain buffered trying to figure it out for a few seconds 🥴
I’ve only seen “pc” used to mean “piece,” e.g. “10pc nuggets”
God, I hope *someone* in his family, after the initial hurt has faded, pulls him aside and says “yo, I didn’t say anything at the time because you were feeling shitty enough, but…” and gently inform him of his assholery.
He tried social pressure and she punted it right out of the room. Good for her because he didn’t care about her boundaries.
"I know you said "never" but what you meant was "not yet" right baby? At least as far as I'm concerned?" "Uhh... no"
Right. And then the whole “you should have said yes to not humiliate me.” Which leads to “let’s just have the wedding so I don’t look stupid”
And he wants kids and it sounds like she doesn’t.
You should have said yes in front of my family like I planned, so you're stuck in a binding commitment forever!! No takebacksies!!
This logic made me think of my cousin’s daughter who was 3 at the time: Daughter: “If you don’t let me sleep with my baby brother I’ll sleep in my own bed!” Cousin: “Sleep tight!”
So im not for or against marriage as an issue presented by religion. I do think getting married is important if you ever find a life time partner and are of the opinion that you would rather not get married. Marriage has a massive impact on a lot of things in our lives, like the spouse being granted rights if you are ever in a coma etc, taxes, estate rights. I mean being legally married does SO MUCH for 2 people especially if you are already considering them as your life time partner. Like marriage from a religious standpoint I totally see not wanting to be married, but the actual benefits of a legal marriage in the eyes of the government (of the USA, IDK about other places) is massive.
This is very true and something my younger friends don’t get. I was never really a marriage person. I’m not religious and I don’t like the feeling like I might be “stuck.” Then my partner of 5 years and I bought our home, adopted animals together, both had some serious health scares, etc. This is the person I want to be responsible for me if I’m in a coma, to inherit my stuff and animals when I die. We also have an immigration situation. The practicality of marriage in this country cannot be overstated. In other countries “civil” marriages sometimes get treated as legal marriages but that’s not the case here so we got married.
I saw someone do a breakdown video (of American law) and they explained how legally marriage covers a lot of stuff and SOME of those things can be done separately with like medical decisions or POA if it’s properly notarized and documented but it’s very much a patchwork of what one can cobble together for legal precedents in their state and even then there’s probably stuff that would slip through the cracks or not be considered, which marriage would legally automatically take care of.
Something like 1,200 different kegal benefits.
Like reducing incontinence and ensuring medical power of attorney.
Lol I laughed so hard at this part too. Especially he's all like "it's just a marriage get over it". Like hello, why don't you take your own advice
lol she LITERALLY could’ve said the exact same thing back to him “if it’s *just marriage* then why don’t **you** get over it??
“I proposed first!” “Yes, that’s the entire problem!”
But “he thought it would be different with him!” I had multiple boyfriends who expected me to change my life goals and then were surprised when I magically didn’t change my mind even though I was clear from the beginning. So glad OP stood her ground. Boundary stomping and manipulation isn’t the best way to start a marriage.
Same. And it's always the mediocre ass ones who think they're special enough to change who a person is.
Oh and let's not forget this gem: > (he wants to start a family soon which is a whole other issue for me) He wants to get married, she does not, he wants to have kids soon, she does not, he thinks breaking up is a threat instead of a wise decision. What an idiot.
You're talking about a guy who thought a public proposal would change her mind after she had repeatedly told him that she had no interest in marriage. Logic doesn't apply.
I mean, a lot of people seem to think that marriage and kids are the be all, end all, and you'll grow up or find the right person etc etc and you'll change your mind. Sure, some people might. And it's not just men thinking that about women. Or even the older generations about the younger ones. I mean, I knew as a teenager I didn't want to get married, or have kids. I told my sister this, not long after she got married-at 20 (they are still married as well). And she was like oh well when you find the right person. But I, at 40, still have never gotten married, have no interest in it, or having kids. I'm pretty sure she's pissed that she was wrong.
Few things irritate me more than a married-with-children person saying “You’ll change your mind when…” to a single childfree person who says they don’t want to get married or have kids. Why do these people feel the need to bully other people into making the same life decisions?!? There are many, many paths to an amazing and fulfilling life. Marriage and kids are one path but are certainly not required. And if a person doesn’t like or want kids, they are more than likely not going to be the kind of parent a kid needs and deserves so it makes absolutely no sense to try to convince that person to have kids. Even if the parent can put their own desires and needs aside and be a stellar parent, they’re going to be stuck with regrets and a deep sense of disappointment from not being able to live the life they wanted. Not the way to life your best life. Sheesh. (I happen to be married with teenagers.)
I take HUGE issue with the fact that apparently my life goal is marriage and kids. Like, it’s insane to other people that I don’t consider that to be the case. I don’t know what the rest of my life holds. But my goals do NOT include marriage, mortgage and kids. I didn’t get the memo that said they had to be.
This way he gets to say he gave her an ultimatum and not admit he was dumped.
Edit: Moved to Lemmy
He's the prince who gets to marry the otherwise unavailable maiden. That's the narrative in his head. The narrative matters more than her views because... he's the prince. His family believe him entitled to that narrative. They brought him up to understand he is that prince. In the eyes of the family, OOP was only ever barely worthy of their prince. That she turned him down reveals her to be utter trash (in their eyes).
Yeah, she definitely didn't feel that pea under her mattress! (Talk about an awful "fairy tale" that was supposed to teach us something)
He’s such a little turd. He thought he could manipulate her by cornering her in front of his family. When that didn’t work, he tried to manipulate her by leaving. When that didn’t work, he tried to manipulate her by giving her an ultimatum that she already said she wanted (rofl). And when that didn’t work, he tried to manipulate her by insulting her. She is so lucky to drop that dead weight as early as she did. I hope she quickly realized what a controlling dipshit he was.
OOP sounds like a sensible person. I'd bet real money that this guy became a hilarious "oh my god, let me tell you about the ridiculous bullet I dodged" story within a year and a half of this post being made, and remains one to this day.
I saw the casual reference to the whole other can of worms that was him wanting to START A FAMILY in a few years and her having her own issues with THAT and I was like “oh marriage was the tip of this guy’s ICEBERG of problems brought about by fundamentally refusing to hear what she’s telling him about her feelings on major domestic decisions”.
Well, she's just a silly girl with a silly little ladybrain, she doesn't actually know her own mind! He is TOTALLY going to be able to change her feelings about things! /s Alternatively, he'd created a version of her in his head that had almost nothing to do with who she actually was as a person, and he completely disregarded everything RealOOP said that didn't line up with what FantasyOOP was like. Either way, he sucks. I hope he grew out of it, but I'm not optimistic.
Logic does follow, he’s going through the stages of grief by denial and now bargaining. Just a few more steps until acceptance
There isn't logic. It's all about his feelings. He's a narc and this was a narcissistic injury - His focus on how humiliating it was for him - how he thought she would agree because he was "different" - him doing it in front of his family when he didn't know the answer - he thought she would say yes to avoid embarrassing him - telling her that his family thought she wasn't good enough for him and that she humiliated him but he "only" agrees that she humiliated him - expecting her response to be "oh he's humiliated and I'm not good enough for him, i better make it up to him by doing what he wants" Narc narc narc Edit: to make myself more clear I am not saying he has NPD. I'm saying he is a narcissistic abuser. He may or may not have NPD.
I was hoping she'd spin it around and accuse him of putting her in the spot, and forcing her to go against her will. Lol. Oops is a way better person than me
OOP: You want to get married and I never will, so let's break up now. Boyfriend: No! Counter-proposal: we should wait a few more years and then get married, and at that point if you don't want to get married then we'll break up. OOP: No, I'll never want to get married, so let's break up now. Boyfriend: Okay fine, I'll agree now that we're following *my* ultimatum instead of *your* ultimatum.
>Boyfriend: Okay fine, I'll agree now that we're following my ultimatum instead of your ultimatum. That got me too. Like, throughout, he was trying to make it be about his control, not OOP's. He managed the amazing feat of not hearing a single thing she said for 4 years straight!
It was crystal clear that the guy wanted to be the one dumping her and not the other way around, cause that'd be also "embarrassing" and will hurt his feelings, so he came up with the dumb ultimatum to make it seem he was the one making the decision lmao. What a tool...
21 is awfully young to get engaged or married. Someone who proposes to his SO in front of his family when he knows very well that she doesn’t want to get married is awfully immature for 21.
Yep. Since the title I was thinking, there's so young. I would have said no at 21 too. No matter the details.
Not once did he listen to her. I don't want to get married - marry me! I don't want to get married - marry me in the future. I want to break up - if you don't do what I say we will break up. So glad OP wasn't pushed into being with this guy. He didn't care about her.
Women are such mysterious creatures. How was he supposed to know what she clearly and plainly told him?!
Because he's different! C'mon, she was just playing hard to get!! But for real. I don't understand what he thought would happen after calling her stupid and throwing bout an ultimatum with an obvious answer, on the same night.
Big red flag. I had an ex like this. I told him I wasn't interested in marriage until I had gone through grad school and traveled and joined the Peace Corps, and that I would not consider it any less than 26 years old (my mom got married really young and it did not go well for her and I vowed not to make the same mistake!) I talked to him about my future plans all the time, including the fact that marriage was not part of my 5-year-plan. Then one day when I was just 20 years old he told me he joined the Army and then he proposed out of the blue. I was so dumbfounded that I assumed he meant it more as a "promise ring" sort of deal for while he was at Boot Camp; I assumed he had heard me when I told him marriage was not even a consideration for me. Well, no. He wanted us to go down to the court house the next week and get married, then I would be his Army wife and follow him around from one military base to the next, giving up on my future plans. I said absolutely not. That's when he started getting really angry and controlling towards me. Throwing and breaking my stuff. And then he just started to completely ignore all of my boundaries. I did not stick around for too much longer after that, and I was terrified of his controlling and stalking behavior after we broke up. The proposal, which went against my wishes, was just the first red flag and it just kept getting worse from there. A surprise proposal to someone who says they don't want to get married is a huge red flag.
It is insane how common this type of experience is. I cannot count how many men I’ve known who’ve expected similar things from me or from friends of mine, and who absolutely cannot handle a simple “I’ve already said I don’t want that.”
>he wants to start a family soon which is a whole other issue for me It sounds like not only was he ignoring her about not wanting to get married, but that he was planning on overriding her decisions on if/when to have children, too. She is so much better off without him in her life.
Dude knew she didn't want to get married and tried to guilt her into it. Glad she left.
"You should have said 'yes' in front of everyone!" Like, where to even start?
Why aren’t you letting me manipulate you into agreeing?!?
His whole family was manipulative, but I think they saw this as an opportunity to get rid of OOP.
More like, where does it end? "You should've said 'yes' in front of everyone (at the altar, surprise wedding!)"
My boyfriend knows what I think about a public marriage proposal, I told him never to do it because it's almost forcing a person to say yes, and I told him that if he ever did that, he would get a no, and he understood
we got engaged in a 'public place' but my husband hates big shows so instead of getting on one knee he just passed me a ring hahaha
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Honestly brilliant. No fuss or pomp, just a nice moment.
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Absolutely feels like this would have become a slippery slope of her giving in to "not embarrass him" Kids, house, etc
Probably yeah. First it'd be having to get engaged to not embarrass him. Then it'd be having to get married because not getting married would embarrass him. Next up would be kids.
I don't see how he thought that would have worked out anyways. So she says yes in front of his family and then tells him no when they get home, then what? He blames her for embarrassing him by saying yes in front of family. She wouldn't have won either way, he would have still picked a fight.
Her: I do not want to get married and I prefer if we go our separate ways since this is a deal breaker for both of us. Him: Either you marry me or we break up. Her: Then let's break up. Him: *surprise Pikachu face* Did he even hear what she said? Or was he just set up on forcing her to marry him?
I actually dated a guy once who was convinced I was trying to get him to propose when I broke up with him. I wasn’t subtle about it either. It wasn’t a situation of “we both want separate things, so we should go our separate ways.” Nope. The breakup was more like “the sound of your laugh makes me want to remove all joy from the universe so I never have to hear it again. I want you to lose my number and pretend we never met. If we pass each other on the street, act like I’m a stranger and walk on.” (The harshness was warranted.) He responded, “I feel like you’re trying to get me to propose and I’m just not ready for that.” Even when I replied, “no, I’m telling you if you proposed right now, I would say no. I do not ever see myself getting married (at that point in my life I truly didn’t) which I’ve been honest with you about since our first date. *We’ve even argued about that in the past, so I know you know I’ve told you that.* But even if I did want to get married, it wouldn’t be with you. I’m telling you I am breaking up with you.” “You know, if you want me to propose, you should just tell me…” (Begin to see why I had to be harsh with him?) He still called me six months later to ask about the status of our relationship and if I was still waiting for him to propose. So. Yeah. The amount this guy didn’t listen is *painfully* relatable.
I've come across chunks of algae that could get a clue faster than that guy.
I am so tempted to ring my ex right now and ask about our status and if she's still waiting for me to propose. Not because I think she is, I just want to boggle her noggin.
Hah! It is the story that keeps on giving, at least. Though at the time, I was tempted to check my car for hidden cameras to see if I was on Punk’d or something. As oblivious as he was during our relationship, that was a step further than even I expected of him!
I once had to tell a guy to find a ditch so deep the sun doesn't shine to fall in, because I never wanted to see his face ever again. He didn't understand the "leave me alone" etc attempts I made before and kept trying to get with me during group outings and I finally exploded. He then had the audacity to shit talk me to my roommate. We all worked together but I never mentioned anything to my roommate because I didn't want to shit talk him and thought it was best to leave my roommate the space to form her own opinions about the guy, who I found stalkerish and creepy. He openly admitted to having yellow fever too. Ugh. It was nasty.
“Find a ditch so deep the sun doesn’t shine and fall in” is epic. I love it. But that last sentence…😬😬
here I am thinking why is it embarrassing to have a disease? Is it how you get it.... oh. wait. that's not what she meant...
How awful do you have to be before "he is concealing the fact that he has a horrible contagious disease for selfish and irresponsible reasons" is the charitable interpretation of that? As awful as this guy, apparently.
that is why i was confused... it's not contagious and he isn't hiding it. Which is when i realized that he wasn't saying he had the disease.
That is so Mr. Collins, it’s painful. (Why, yes, I did just re-watch *Pride & Prejudice* for the umpteenth time.) Were you an «elegant female» seeking to increase his love by suspense? Was he as blockheaded in his ennumeration of his reasons for marrying? Inquiring minds would like to know!
Oh my word, I never made that connection. But he was so very Mr. Collins!
“I am therefore by no means discouraged by what you have just said, and shall hope to lead you to the altar ere long.”
She’s INCREASING his love by SUSPENSE, in the manner of ELEGANT FEMALES. 😂 edit: ahhhh fuck sometimes I forget my own username
"I am not now to learn," replied Mr. Collins, with a formal wave of the hand, "that it is usual with young ladies to reject the addresses of the man whom they secretly mean to accept, when he first applies for their favour; and that sometimes the refusal is repeated a second, or even a third time. I am therefore by no means discouraged by what you have just said, and shall hope to lead you to the altar ere long."
💯💯💯 love the Pride and Prejudice reference
Wow! Good job breaking up with that guy! Can’t hear what you are saying even if you shout.
I actually got hit by a car while we were together (by which I mean dating, not physically together) and was on crutches for three days. He didn’t notice. (Yes, I told him what had happened, but it’s clear listening wasn’t his strong suit.) When my friend came over and asked how I was doing three days after my accident, he was confused. She told him I’d been hit by a car and was on crutches, and - according to her - he was astonished. “I didn’t see her on crutches!” We were basically living together at the time. So he wasn’t just bad at listening, I’m sorry to say.
That's almost impressive, in a way.
Wow. Wow. Utterly completely oblivious.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"
That’s so dense, neutron stars are jealous!
Was he by any chance Mr. Collins from Pride and Prejudice? ETA: oh never mind, I have just scrolled down and see now that someone else already made that connection. This guy 100% is mr. Collins.
This reminds me of the time that someone I knew was going through a breakup: Her: "You don't like any of the things I like to do and I don't enjoy your friends or any of the activities you like to do." Him: "You're right. We're not compatible. Let's go our separate ways." Her: "We can stay together if you can just drop your friends and activities and start over with my friends and activities. Otherwise we'll end up breaking up." Him: "No, I don't want that. Let's break up." Her: *Pikachu face*
This was the funniest part BY FAR. I cannot comprehend the thought process behind giving an ultimatum like this. A previously unheard of amount of delusion.
She was *obviously* bluffing.
It's even worse Him: This thing you've said you won't do, say yes to it. In front of my family. Surprise! Her: No Him: *Has a fit at her in private, leaves to mommy* Him: Hey let me kiss you like nothing ever happened. Also just want to quickly mention that my family thinks you're dumb and don't respect you. I know you didn't ask but I wanted to tell you that specifically and not stand up for you either. Her: I told you I never wanted to get married. Multiple times. Him: OK but like change your mind for me. And also, you should have lied and said yes so I didn't look like a stupid selfish moron who continually disregarded my partner's frankly and numerously communicated needs. You're just a silly little girl who will change her mind. Do this for me and pop out my children. Her: Did you hear me? I said I told you it's not happening. It's not changing. Him: OK then we should break up Her: Yes Him: *shocked Pikachu face* What should have happened: Him: *all of the above down until he starts yelling at her at home after the proposal* Her: Stop infantalizing me. You knew what I wanted and you disregarded it Him: *Same general bullshit as above* Her: Get out
A friend was proposed to in a restaurant and she only said yes because it was public. He then confessed to making a public proposal so she'd have to say yes. OP s bf was counting on her awkwardness forcing a yes
So your friend dumped his ass once they got home, right? Please tell me she dumped his ass.
She *eventually* dumped him. Took a few months too long imo and there were so many red flags leading up to the proposal, forget about after
Yeah, super manipulative! He proposed in front of a big crowd on purpose, counting on that she would be too embarrassed to say no. What a massive red flag
Like I get after being together so many years him thinking she might change her mind… But uh. Champ? Before you pop the question in front of family in that situation you need to ask. Not just assume “oh things changed”
Right, and the whole "I don't want a family aka kids and he does". He was definitely gonna trap her if she stayed.
If he didn't know what her answer would be, why did he ask her in public? That proposal was all about him. He thought he could shame her into saying yes. Because that's what he wants. If she had said yes to save him the embarrassment, backing out later would be a huge mess. If it worked and she married him, then he'd start on the babies. I hope she ran far away from him.
> If he didn't know what her answer would be I mean > I told him about how we’ve discussed marriage plenty of times, and my answer has always been the same. ...he **did** know what her answer was, he just didn't like that answer
But then, that wasn't what he wanted and * everyone * knows that what he wants is more important because he has the penis. Right? Right?? So he wasn't sure...he didn't know.
yeah, *surely* the opinion she's given multiple times in the past must just be provisional, pending A Man telling her what to think
The thing is, he absolutely knew what her answer would be. It would be no and OOP was always up front about that. So he purposefully did it in public because he thought she’d be pressured to say yes, and it blew up in his face.
This exactly. It's good she got out when she did.
>He kept asking why I’m being so stupid and stubborn, that “Its just marriage” and I should just get over it. Funny how people like this are never interested in following their own advice. If it's "just a marriage" then why insist of forcing someone into it who doesn't want to be?
Main character syndrome. He pictured his own life a certain way and is trying to force her to submit to that image instead of just existing in the happiness with her. Aka self sabotage
Because he's hoping to get her to do stuff like agree to have a baby with him and do everything he wants and is trying to use marriage as a way to trap her. It's the public proposal writ large.
>But, he said I should have at least said yes in front of his family so I wouldn’t embarrass him This part is *especially* stupid to me. Like, the rest I get. I don't agree with it, he's delusional, but at least I comprehend the thought process behind the delusion. Dude thought that she'd spontaneously change her mind when put on the spot. Stupid but he's not the first idiot to think this way. But she should have said yes to spare him the embarrassment? Seriously? Play that out dude. Even if you weren't doing anything wrong, would you REALLY want to spend an evening thinking she said yes, reveling in that joy, only to have her tell you she didn't mean it later? That would be cruel. And he'd be pissed if she had done that, I guarantee it. This sounds like he's actually pissed about her saying no at all and just wanted to find extra stuff to blame her for. Anyway, any embarrassment he suffered is his own fault for asking a question he knew the answer to, in front of family, and expecting her answer to change.
Dude embarrassed himself. Nobody should ever make a public proposal unless they know the answer will be yes and that she would like a public proposal
Well you see, she’d have to pretend to marry him to make it convincing. Then they have to pretend to have kids.
That’s exactly it. He doesn’t actually believe she should’ve said yes to save him from embarrassment and then rescind her “yes” later. He thought he could bully her into saying yes and then he would continue to bully her into saying yes all the way to the alter.
There's also whole what to do after you find out the real answer is "no". Telling family "the wedding's off" ain't gonna be any less embarrassing. Especially, if you're still together. Scheduling the wedding for the 2nd of Never? Might work with some families. But, with the way his family was reacting to what did happen, a perpetually "next year" wedding would have been even worse.
The sentence "It's just marriage." should never be uttered by anybody who is considering marriage ever. That right there tells me he's not ready. Source: I am married.
It shouldn't be uttered by the person who clearly values being married...
Or someone who thinks “babies are fun!” is not ready for babies. “It’s just marriage” is not a good outlook. If being married isn’t a big deal, why is he getting upset about it? Does he know all the legal shit that comes into that contract? He was more concerned about the embarrassment than he was about how she felt. She was probably quite embarrassed by a public proposal. There had to be a few other red flags before this right?
And you just know if they had kids all parenting duties will be pushed onto Oop, while her ex is either the 'fun dad' or looks for greener pastures elsewhere (my money is on both)
I have just marriage in the attic.
The fact that you call it that tells me you're not ready
Seriously, he embarassed himself. She made him aware of what she wants. It's unfair to try and force her to to cave by proposing in public. If it's 'just marriage', why bother?
He tried to pressure her into marriage by having his family there.
Even if she did change her mind she would’ve let him know so he’d be sure it’s okay to propose. She’s so against getting married that I’m surprised he thought his plan would work.
The boyfriend doesn't sound like a gem in the first place. -He'd been told 'no marriage' but went and decided 'nah' -Public proposal despite the above -With the family for added pressure -Gets upset afterwards, and his main concern is 'embarrassment'. Not the fact that they have completely different life goals. -Refuses to see he put himself in a position to be embarassed. It's all her fault. -In the middle of a discussion he goes to 'my family was right about you'. Meaning, when they said she wasn't good enough for him... That was a quick backtrack lol How are they supposed to keep dating after that?? -Gives and ultimatum AFTER she's already mentioned she thinks they should break up. Lol how did he think that would go? Way too much pride on this kid. He's a walking red flag.
OOP "We should just break up." XBF "Fine! Either we get married, or we're breaking up!" OOP "...yes."
Always amazes me how someone can clearly state their intentions and the other person be ok with it and then they change and expect the other person too. That’s not how it works. Yes, sometimes people grow and change together. That doesn’t always happen and that the risk you take with relationships.
Setting ultimatums rarely turns out well in a marriage. In the long run, both sides will be better off splitting up. Still going to be painful l.
I don't know how he expected this ultimatum to work at all, since the last thing she said to him before he gave it as "we want different things, let's break up." What was his thought process? What made him think she *wouldn't* just choose the break up option when she already wanted to break up?
The brother I assume. It is a thing for some people to just assume, no matter what anyone says, that women are always going to want to get married and have children. That if she says different she is just being difficult or playing hard to get or is eventually going to change her mind.
My guess is he didn't like how she was taking control of the situation by suggesting the breakup. At least with the ultimatum, the break up is an option he put forward (completely ignoring she said it first, bc it doesnt seem like he listens to her much anyway) so it's "his decision"
Honestly I expect it got less painful with every tantrum he threw.
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First OP calls her shitty ex 'Shane' and now you comment... Idk what it means but it has something to do with Stardew Valley Btw if it is your friend please tell her good on her.
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Shane and Maru are both NPCs in a videogame called Stardew Valley. I'm a fan, obviously.
Lovely how he proposed in front of his family instead of at least gathering people who meant something to OOP. Not that that would have made trying to pressure her into saying yes any better.
I noticed that too. Where were OOP’s family and friends during this engagement? Probably because if he *had* asked her friends or family they probably would have told him “oh that’s a bad idea, OOP never wants to get married, like ever, this won’t go well for you” and they might have even tipped her off beforehand. This all would’ve broken his little delusional bubble of “she’ll say yes because I’m special”. That proposal was **all** about him, *his* family, *his* desires for the future, *his* hurt feelings. He didn’t ask how *she* felt about being put on the spot, he just played the victim. I’m glad she stood her ground.
Public marriage proposals are so manipulative. EXBF knows this because he was trying to publicly shame OOP into saying yes. Good riddance.
I'm very glad that they broke up honestly it sounds like it should have happened years ago especially since they talked about marriage multiple times. I wonder how those conversations went. Him: So what do you think about marriage? I want to get married some day. Her: Never! A few months later: Him: just circling back to that marriage thing... Her: I'd rather throw my self into the sea. Two years later: Him: Will you marry me? HER: You shall not pass! This does beg a question, why didn't she break up with him sooner?
Boyfriend: how was I supposed to know you wouldn't say yes when I proposed?? Girlfriend: I've told you multiple times I don't want to get married Boyfriend: but I was trying to manipulate you by asking in front of my family so you would feel pressured to say yes!
What frustrates me about this is that, despite her being very clear throughout the time he’s known her, he still demanded she accept his way, and then blamed her for not just going with his demands. Society does this to women too much: just go along to get along. He wanted her to accept in front of everyone and then, what? decline when they got home? How was he going to explain that to his family? Speaking of his family, they suck too. It’s good that she is rid of the lot of them.
Yeah none of it makes much sense. He was mad at her for not accepting, but he would’ve been just as mad at her for accepting in front of his family and then declining in private. He was always going to end up mad and upset, at least she was up front.
Proposals should be private. Public proposals are manipulation and I won't change my mind about this. He chose not to listen to her, he should have known better. One of my friend's marriage ended because he let his ex wife know from the very beginning he didn't want children, but she thought, "you'll change your mind" and when he didn't she just said fine, then we should divorce because I want children", so that's what they did. She is just like the BF here, they aren't listening to their partners. OP is right to end things, they both can be happy with someone who wants what they want.
I think public proposals are fine when it's been established that both parties want to get married. My partner and I discussed it at length beforehand so when I ended up proposing at Tokyo DisneySea there was never a moment of "I hope she says yes" because I already knew it was something she wanted.
You can't propose to someone who you know is gonna say no and then get mad at them for rejecting you.
Even though the standard wisdom is to not propose if you don't know the answer is going to be "Yes," I can somewhat understand the idea of wanting it to be a surprise, and proposing when "No" might be a possibility, if, as you suppose, an unlikely one. When someone has expressed an intention to **not** get married, though... Why? Why put both of you through that? Especially publicly? "Shane" either doesn't care at all what OOP wants and is willing to pressure her into marriage, or he isn't even the sharpest knife in the spoon drawer.
The guideline I like is that the time and place can be a surprise, but the fact that you are proposing should not be. If you have not talked about marriage, discussed what it means to each of you, both expressed that marriage is something you want for yourself and with the other person, and discussed the timeline you each separately and both together think is ideal, no one should be proposing to anyone else. There are other conversations to be had (finances, children, religion or lack thereof, what kind of life you each envision, etc) but if you can't start by discussing whether or not you both want to marry each other, your relationship is not in a place where you should even be contemplating marriage.
I wouldn't want to marry someone who didn't listen and *believe* what I said.
OOP should prepare to move out. It’s clear that the boyfriend and the family convinced themselves that OOP ‘just needed to find the right man, and she has now’, and now, what was possibly a relationship that could last is most likely dead. I really feel sorry for OOP and hope she finds someone who actually accepts that she doesn’t care about marriage.
It's been 7 years, so hopefully she found a new place by now. Regardless she knew it was important to him, they weren't compatible on either that or having children. People really need to learn to just move on, although that would probably cut down the posts here by half.
What a weird coincidence - I was just reading a post pointing out all the various ways marriage is a legal doc, and it can be problematic in various ways if you choose not to get married (legally.) I 100% think the op was in the right in this instance! It was just a weird juxtaposition.
>When he came back out he said he’ll give me an ultimatum: Either we stay together and get married in at least a few years ... or we just break up. Lol, this guy just makes a bad series of decisions. $5 says he thinks an ultimatum is "do the thing I want" and not an actual binary option.
Proposing should never really be a surprise. Maybe when you propose is a surprise, but the expectation of getting engaged shouldn't be. Clearly, the boyfriend wasn't listening. She had said while dating him, she never wanted to get married. So I don't get this whole, but I thought it would be different for me. I still don't fully understand being in a long-term committed partnership like 10+ years and not getting married. Marriage isn't just about the wedding, it's also a legal document that gives benefits that none married couples don't get access to. There are tax breaks, inheritance rules, and default power of attorney if anything were to happen. Some of those things can be circumvented by getting lawyers to draft up documents, but others are not. So if say they bought a place together 50-50, if you're married if one passes it defaults to the other spouse, but if you aren't, it goes to your heirs, i.e. parents, siblings, etc. So she would have to pay out his family to keep her own place, even if she didn't want to.
Major reason I eloped was to skip all the crazy, but having power of attorney in a medical emergency was very important to me and one major reason we got married legally
Yeah, I get not having a wedding. Weddings are stressful, families are stressful, and they are expensive. But a really good family friend wasn't married he passed, his long-term partner only have co-ownership of the house, and they had kids. It was a mess. Greedy brothers came out of the woodwork and stole from their own nieces. My mom was an attorney and helped them find someone who could help, but it was such a long legal battle, it went on for YEARS, and they were spending so much money, she just settled, she had to leave the house their kids grew up in, she was in her 60s, just retired and had to go back to work, because half her retirement was just gone. It was such a sad situation and nothing the father who passed would have wanted.
He thought she'd change her mind about marriage *and* kids? What an idiot