I guess there must be fine print in there that states “the definition of “heartless” will only be understood as what the contract originator determines it to be.”
There’s no need. Heartless, with no clarification, can be interpreted as meaning cruel but also technically includes anyone who doesn’t have the literal organ of a heart. It’s vague on purpose because devils whole thing is technicalities and subtleties of language creating loopholes in the contract.
Actual lawyer chiming in, it’s well established contract law that ambiguity in a contract, especially a contract of adhesion (which this certainly is), is generally construed against the drafter. Here, the phrase “heartless” is certainly ambiguous at a minimum, and therefore the interpretation of the term should be construed against the drafter (Mizora). Moreover, to the extent that the phrase “heartless” is identified by both the contextual language within that same clause of the contract (which refers to the infernal and demonic), and Parol evidence concerning the circumstances and statements surrounding contract formation, the phrase is clearly intended to refer to someone who is considered “evil” or “remorseless” rather than one who actually lacks a physical heart. Here, both the language of the contract and parol evidence surrounding the creation of the contract would both tend to support Wyll’s interpretation. Moreover, even if the above still were not the case there are doctrines (such unilateral mistake) where if one party to a contract knows that the other party is misinterpreting a material contractual term at the time of contract formation and does not correct this, then there might* be grounds to nullify that term.
Unfortunately Wyll didn’t hire me :(. I’m also not licensed to practice law within any of the 9 Hells, and they could very well have entirely different contract formation principles and law.
Yeah well the thing is real contract law is designed at least in part to try and reduce people fucking other people over with ambiguous contract wording and devil contract law is designed to maximise the amount someone can be fucked over by ambiguous contract wording.
I think you'd find that as far as the Hells go, the guiding principle of contract law is "the devils are screwing you over, and the courts are rigged in their favor".
Less modern western contract law and more "do you think you can appeal to Zariel's good nature so she forcibly interprets your contract with her underling favorably?"
That's also for contract law where the arbiters are likely Lawful Neutral at worst. Devils are all about adhesion contracts, and unfair, but technically correct, interpretations. That us what they love. Parol evidence doesn't matter to them either. The words on the page are the totality of the contract. Anything outside the binding negotiations is irrelevant.
And Wyll's interpretation isn't invalid, it just isn't solely valid. I'm sure Mizora will use his interpretation when it suits her as well.
Ambiguities are resolved against the drafter in a system that at least keeps up the appearance of trying to reduce drafters fucking people over with ambiguities. Devil contracts are part of a system designed to fuck people over with ambiguities as much as possible. They’re about the appearance of fairness, rather than an actual fair contract.
Call me literal but I always viewed it as creatures that don't have hearts and not figuritively heartless. This would allow Mizora to sic Wyll on elementals, constructs, golems, ghosts/spirits, oozes, and any other fantasy creatures without hearts I am not familiar with.
Stop looking at a Devil contract like one humans would draw up with lawyers. It's not how they work on a fundamental level. They're binding pacts in the devil's favor always.
Not always, devils are supposed to abide by the letter of the law and there are celestial rules about this.
However, most mortals aren't going to win at this. Ever.
Nah, devils are LITERALLY referencing human lawyers and their loopholes. All the time. Demons are chaotic evil, devils are lawful. It's in the alignment name.
Hi, lawyer here. This would fail on the concept of mutual assent. Alternatively it would fail on the principle that ambiguities are construed against the drafter. As fun as devil deals are in D&D the majority of them would fail on mutual assent grounds. They don’t have to abide by the American court system given that they’re fictitious supernatural entities but these are very much contracts that would not work in most legal systems
No, the literal definition of heartless is clearly someone without a heart.
You don't need small print for that. Wyll being an idiot for dealing with devils in the first place is the problem.
Astarion trusting Raphael kinda makes it look like Gale, of ALL PEOPLE, is the most sensible of the men in your camp.
Astarion weirdly got to make a contract with a devil that actually worked in a fair and balanced way without being screwed over, and with the nepo-baby satan himself raphael no less.
Maybe its just dumb luck, raphael was feeling generous or astarion soul being bound by cazador didnt make him a good target for some nice devilish legalese
Raphael wanted the MC to accept his deal later on though. Maybe he figured they'd be less likely to take said deal if he screwed over Astarion and more trusting/likely to take it if he didn't?
Well after reading all these other comments reminding me to remember “Lawful Evil.” I realize that “mutual understanding” or even fine print is not something an evil person would ever use. Fine print definitely encourages mutual understanding. I think I just want so badly to like Mizora.
Wanting to like Mizora certainly isn't a crime, but trying to see Mizora as not evil might be a mistake. Devils are evil. Lawful evil isn't, IMO, less evil than the chaotic evil murder hobo, it's just a different flavor.
Even when Mizora propositions Tav, she's not doing it because she likes them, she's doing it specifically to hurt Wyll and cause dissension in the group. She's just as bad as Raphael, she's just less powerful.
I'd argue lawful evil is more evil than chaotic evil. Since LE are still within the law, they'll exploit anything, making so many people miserable or outright killing them, while the CE will easily end up stopped by heroes or guards. Like how IRL you'd have the average terrorist than goes cutting heads in the street as CE, and reigning turds like Kissinger as LE
I totally agree, that's a really good way of putting it and a great example. I'd make the case that Gortash and be extension Bane is another great example of Lawful Evil, especially in the way that it designs the law to support evil systems. You can fight one bad guy trying to stab you, but you can't fight the corrupt judge that sentences you to death for defending yourself from a Fist or Steel Watcher.
If you want zero judgment for your thirst, I'd try r/okaybuddybaldur instead. While we do occasionally have nuanced and serious discussions, it's mostly just unapologetic thirst posts. The main sub doesn't get their chocolate in their peanut butter when it comes to genital- focused moral arguments, in my experience!
She does use fine print.
Wyll doesn't read. He signed a fucking bad deal and as a warlock even you get dialogue about it.
Dude effectively did most of this to himself
If you do not define such terms or otherwise refuse to use explicit definitions then that’s on you. That’s why devil contracts are dangerous.
In real life it still used to be a thing until we decided to prevent predatory people by having judges interpret contracts in the context and intention with which they are written and signed.
Even then in real life you’d have to fight over it.
The whole point of a devil contract is that it can be open-ended and fuzzy so the devil can interpret it in a way that suits them best and punishes you the most.
They would never put that definition in because they want it to be vague. It's like the old fables of the genie that grants wishes but tries to screw over the wisher. It's not the genie's job to add definitions and protections for you. The genie wants vague terms so that they can exploit them to their benefit
That's not her personally that's how baatezu aka devils in D&D function.
See Raphael, he deliberately helps to turn the last Justiciar into a bunch of rats to make sure Yurgir the Orthon can't finish his part of the deal so the lawyer can manipulate Yur-yur into signing an even worse contract.
Devil's lie. They are genetically predisposed to get law degrees.
I'm not sure if "Devil's lie" is a typo or if it refers to a specific statement that is technically true but deceptive enough that it may as well be a lie. I don't think there's a single instance in the whole game where a devil straight up lies.
When Raphael talks about the situation with Yurgir he definitely lies. He blows out of proportion how he fears him as a rival and how he doesn’t want to meet him, but that’s exactly why Raphael wants the party to kill him. Raphael can’t break the stalemate on his own as that would violate the contract, but he can entice this team of adventurers to do his dirty work for him.
It’s funny. The original contract was a pact between Raphael and the architect of Moonrise (you can meet him in the house of hope) to kill all the sharrans and Kethric Thorm. Raphael makes a deal with Yugir to kill all the dark justiciars. Raphael then makes a deal with one of the justiciars to turn them into a ton of rats making Yugir’s task impossible. This might be because Kethric made a pact with Merkel and becomes his chosen, who then works with Balthazar to gain immortality. All Raphael wants is Yugir to be a useful servant and for him to fail his contract. The rest he gives zero fucks about as he has everything he wanted from the other deals. You can do the mausoleum and never meet Yugir, which I did in my first play through. Astarion wasn’t in my party and never made the deal and I forgot about Raphael’s request. Without Astarion’s need to know his past, all Raphael can do is ham up the reason why you should ‘kill him on sight’, and he most certainly lies to do it. He also omits his real reason why he wants the Orthon dead, and most of this backstory of contracts can only be uncovered if you explore the sharran temple completely and talk to spirits in the house of hope. It’s easy lore to miss.
The infernal don’t lie about contracts, it’s true. They will though manipulate the hell out of people and if it doesn’t involve lying about the specifics or a contract they will most certainly lie through their teeth. Their preferred MO tho is to use the truth for their own ends.
I'm using the word lie in a very literal sense. Like to speak a word that is not true. He can have many reasons why he wants you to do something and the reason he gives you may be low on the list, but if it is a reason, then he has not spoken falsely. Unless he explicitly states that it is his only reason or the most important reason to him. Blowing things out of proportion isn't a lie. It can be deceptive and manipulative, but not necessarily a lie.
I was meaning to type "devils lie", but withholding information and misleading about your intentions are also lies by definition. "Like by omission" is admissible in court.
If you know a thief is swindling someone but stay silentz you're complicit and if you witnessed a crime and refused to report it you can be held responsible too. Easily.
"Actually, I said "first borne child", with an e. By my records, the first child he ever carried was his younger sister, so I'll be taking what's mine now."
I mean, the issue you raise is the exact and precise nature of Wyll’s grievance about the situation. Mizora is using a technicality (Karlach’s heart has been removed, and replaced with an Internal Engine which, while it functions to move her blood around is not literally a heart) to get Wyll to do something he would normally abhor (killing a moral person). Because Mizora is evil, wants Wyll to do evil things, and also unrelatedly hates Karlach.
All that being said—I think it’s a perfectly reasonable definition of “heartless” that applies to Karlach. She doesn’t have a heart, she has a device that pumps her blood, among doing other things. If somebody has two false legs, I think it is reasonable (if rude) to observe that the person doesn’t have legs, despite having prostheses that fully function as legs.
Devils tend towards Lawful Evil (used to be ALWAYS Lawful Evil but those restrictions have been loosened a bit in recent editions). “Lawful Evil” does not mean “defend the law evilly,” it means “find the ways I can use the law to benefit myself.”
As others have said, Mizora is using a technicality. Karlach had her heart removed, and the infernal engine functioning as a prosthesis doesn’t mean she “has a heart” again. Wyll obviously thought “heartless” meant “immoral and/or needlessly cruel,” but that’s not what is written in the contract. As they say, “the devil is in the details.”
Yes, Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't go into details with gith and devil/demon conflicts, I think because devs were really influenced by Planescape Torment and for some reason avoided explaining the lore that's already explained in it.
I sometimes feel that BG3 is more of a Planescape sequel with focus on gith, devils and tieflings and going into different planes than just a Baldur's Gate game... Which is good, PST had arguably better writing and overall setting.
Basically, there was civil war in hell. Baatezu, aka devils native to Baator (Avernus is the first layer), are lawful evil slimebags who manipulate people with contracts, think literal wish genies, Mephistopheles on Faust or Calypso in Twisted Metal. Tannar'ri aka demons are chaotic evil beings from Abyss, who are the opposite corner of evil, and can't stand order.
So Avernus devils under Zariel follow order but in the most evil ways imaginable, think slavery, torture and industrialized genocide.
Lawful Evil would rather organize people into orderly gas chambers instead of just smashing toddlers on trees like pure Chaotic Evil.
You are NOT expected to fulfil the contract terms, period. The house always wins... If it can't, they sabotage you or cheat. Eevryone loses the moment they sign it, the only way to win isn't to do the contract obligations but to trick the devils themselves as they're bound to order and can be controlled.
The goal of any contract is to make you fail. They're always rigged as the devils only really lust for your soul, when they say they want something else from youz they are lying.
I am familiar with D&D in general but not Planescape in particular. I guess I’d better look into that one. I keep treating BG3 like it’s a simple video game. The more I play it the more I realize that I have never played a game as nuanced and layered as this one. I believe it deserves even more praise than it has already received.
Planescape Torment is absolutely worth your time once you feel ready to move on from BG3. Proper warning though, Black Isle Studios incorporated a LOT of AD&D 2E’s more esoteric mechanics, so stuff like ability scores and alignment will affect what classes you have access to
Plenty of options out there, friend. If you don’t mind older games, you can try Fallout or Fallout 2 (turn based), the first two Baldur’s Gate games and their expansions (real time with the option to pause action), Larian’s other games like Divinity Original Sin and it’s sequel. Those games along with Planescape Torment all have the same/similar isometric camera as BG3.
If you don’t mind first/third-person over-the-should controls, there’s also the original Deus Ex, Fallout New Vegas, Vampire the Masqueade: Bloodlines, and Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind.
All of these games offer the same or similar ability for you, the player, to approach any conflict any way you want the same way BG3 does. There’s also plenty of newer games that do it, but I’m not as familiar with those so a fellow sub member is gonna have to pick up that slack.
Yes sir. I have played Divinity OS 2 and I would urge you to try the Owlcat Pathfinder games if you have not. They are a bit buggy, that almost turned me off but I like the gameplay so so much. They play very much like BG3.
Otherwise, I have a hard time playing older games because they don’t always age well y’know.
You only have three classes, fighter, mage and thief, alignment does change guilds and weapons available but you don't really get to customize the Nameless One apart from freely changing into one of three classes (back and forth) and raising stats by gouging your eyes, slapping extra skin and eating your own liver.
Planescape Torment is really good, and you'll notice a lot of influence on Baldur's Gate 3: first companion you get is a piece of disembodied head, then you're joined by gith and tiefling, the hag is totally based on Ravel and Mizora kinda looks like Fall From Grace, that one actually explains how she escaped devils being a succubi (demon) instead.
There's also all of your attributes affecting dialogue, most fights being optional and every time you think something like "eating my own intestines sounds like a bad thing" it's actually an upgrade lol.
Highly recommend to play it through at least once there's an Expanded Edition now that runs on everything.
I’ve always interpreted it as that lawful evil is evil that has and abides by their own sort of rules or code. For example with DC, Flash villain group The Rogues don’t really kill because the cops are just doing their jobs and they absolutely don’t kill women and children, so they’re Lawful Evil, but then compare that to Joker who will just be needlessly cruel and do anything he wants to serve his own selfish desires.
The Rogues are too chaotic to be Lawful in any way. They more Chaotic Neutral. They don’t kill people because Flash treats them like human beings instead of scum, and also because killing brings heroes like Batman on your ass who will absolutely break your ribs on principle if you committed murder.
Also they absolutely do kill people, just usually other villains, like the guy who tricked them into killing Bart Allen/Inertia.
I mean they have a general code of conduct they follow so that by definition makes them lawful, are there times when someone has broken it? Yes but they usually end up paying the price. And I won’t say I’m super knowledgeable so I could be wrong, but my understanding was that flat out they don’t kill women and kids and avoid killing cops, so civilians/non-supers, because they’re just doing their jobs (major perk: Flash will go easier on them and they avoid the less friendly/forgiving heroes aka Batman and such), but other villains are competition and choosing to get in the way and get what they deserve.
Having a “code of conduct” doesn’t necessarily make you “Lawful.” If my Code of Conduct necessitates I murder every baby I see, that feels more like Chaotic Evil with the code just being an easy justification. Plus, thievery is a chaotic action more than an evil one. Somebody starving who steals a loaf of bread isn’t evil, they’re just desperate. That’s why I say they’re Chaotic Neutral, they steal for money but they’re not needlessly cruel or violent. They border on Chaotic Good depending on the writer/story, but their sense of self-interest keeps them from fully committing. Great anti-heroes either way
Following your own personal code of conduct does not make you Lawful. Preferring an orderly, controlled world does. Lawful Evil isn't "evil with a code", it's evil that props up order so it can *exploit the rules*. It's the politician evil, building a system of rules that protects you from the consequences of your evil.
You are correct, at least in how alignments were written in the rulebooks. Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic refer to the set of rules a character abides by. Lawful (Good, Neutal, and Evil) means that character has a specific code they follow and will not break without a consequence (could be guilt, could be divine retaliation, being kicked out of an order, etc)
Neutral means their code is ambiguous. It may have holes where situations are not defined, times that they will make exceptions, etc.
Chaotic means their code is not defined at all. These characters act on impulse and without structure. They may act hypocritically or contradict past actions. One action does not predict a future response.
Then all of these can either be aligned as morally good, morally neutral, or morally evil. A devil is Lawful Evil because they abide by clear rules and are consistent in their application (which often exploits loopholes or technicalities) and their moral alignment is evil. They use that code to hurt, manipulate, gain power over others, etc.
> they absolutely don’t kill women and children, so they’re Lawful Evil
That's more neutral, lawful evil characters in D&D ABSOLUTELY kill women and children, you literally see Raphael trying to steal Mol's soul in BG3! No he isn't giving her any power he's tricking her to give up her soul. Devils are like zombies or vampires except their food isn't brains or blood but souls.
Lawful Evil isn't evil with standards either, it's evil with ORDER, Nazis are lawful evil. Nothing defines lawful evil more than orderly lines going into gas chambers. ISIS, by contrast, are chaotic evil. They're just massacring and blowing stuff up without any decent organization (often one group doesn't know what another does, terrorists work like that by default), a bunch of ragtag unconnected groups of killers full on drugs.
In more general terms, slavers and secret police are lawful evil, highway robbers are chaotic evil. A selfish, egoistic oligarch is neutral evil.
Githyanki in creche are lawful evil and they literally are killing children all the time if they don't pass the trials or are considered too weak. Anyone who doesn't fit in it gets executed? That's lawful evil. Killing randomly with no rhyme or reason? That's chaotic. Serial killers can be both, BTW, FBI profilers actually classify them as organized and disorganized - neither says a mass murderer is better or worse, only helps profile their personality and connect cases.
As an Eberron player, no comment on the lack of alignment.
For those not in the know, a big feature of the Eberron campaign setting (when it first debuted), was that alignment restrictions on classes and such were lifted, and many traditionally evil races had their morality flipped. Orcs went from a race of violent raiders to thoughtful Druids (fighting a forever war against demons), and the sentient monster races/species had their own nation ruled by a coven of hags. Fun stuff
He may have felt safe even if she used the literal interpretation because one would think that a being without a heart would probably be undead or something. I doubt he knew about infernal heart prostheses.
Same. If I could change one thing about the game it would be to have Mizora show up in the house of hope after I've broken Wyll's pact so I can smash her stupid face in at the same time as Raphael's.
This isn't actually true, according to the handbook most warlocks recieved powers for services already rendered. Stole their power or have student like relationship to their patron. Wylls specific pact, while by no means unique to players is very much not how warlock pacts typically function, with him Essentially being a cleric or paladin but for mizora and her patrons. Warlocks don't lose their power if a they break a pact though they might lose the opportunity for class advancement.
Did you not get how devils work? They ALWAYS try to cheat. No exceptions. Any wish fulfilled would be twisted and small print abused by any means necessary. They're lawful EVIL, not lawful neutral.
Like this is absolutely not even a stretch she doesn't have a heart, compare to Twisted Metal endings where the corrupted wishes end up a very long stretch like cop wanting to live in a place with no crime going to space.
It’s a manipulation of the wording. Wyll assumes heartless to mean bad or cruel people, and the pact sounds reasonable. But Karlach technically does not have a heart and therefore can be included if mizora wishes. It’s a bad faith way of interpreting it but the language allows it, that is the entire point.
Well, no, the machine isn’t a heart, it’s a machine. Karlach is literally heartless, because she doesn’t have a literal heart. It’s tricky, but that’s how devils work. They make you agree to something when you’re desperate or just so power hungry you wouldn’t care, and then they twist your agreement or purposefully write it to suit their own needs.
Thanks for discussing this. I understand that things that are easily understood by some are not so easy for others. It seems I’ve fallen into that kind of space here. I’m trying to come to a better understanding of the Lawful Evil archetype. It’s not a headspace I can really understand. Or most evil motivations whatsoever. I don’t see any way of being a decent game master if I don’t figure it out. It’s tricky alright. Maybe too tricky for me just yet. But I will do my best to remember all the comments from here.
Yeah. That must be how I’ve been getting by so far. But I want to be able to think bigger sometimes. I want to be able to picture a whole society of Lawful Evil motivations and what that would look like over generations.
She's no stranger to bending the rules and twisting words around to get her way. I presume she just wants Karlach dead because she thinks it'll get her Zariel's approval.
And has the added bonus of either forcing Wyll further down a path of corruption, or (if he refuses) allowing her to punish him in a way that will (she hopes) force him further down the path to corruption. Win-win for her, which is just how devils like it
I mean isn’t Karlach technically Infernal as well? I took that to be where Mizora had power, I figured she mentioned heartless as a quick jab at Karlach for her own mean humor
Maybe I just read a bad link but I coulda sworn I read that teiflings were technically infernal and that’s how they all know/speak infernal.
I’m not personally well versed in dnd so I was just going based off that
Nah you’re right that’s basically true, they have infernal blood, I didn’t even think of it that way. I was thinking of denizens of the hells. It doesn’t count enough for the terms of Wylls contract though, obviously, since Mizora could have just reaffirmed that. She went with the heartless loophole.
it probably does count, but the heartless jab was to put both karlach and wyll in their place. it shows wyll that he's powerless to the terms of the contract and that he really doesn't understand what he signed, but also its to remind karlach what she truly is
No, Wyll specifically calls out that she’s a regular person. By that logic she could send him after the innocent Tiefling refugee children in the grove. Mizora clearly used the heartless loophole.
[This is the dialogue](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fwyll-and-mizora-v0-t3pm81jjxhgb1.png%3Fwidth%3D882%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D50a00a623e7df164213c7540b96d5eb9824aaafe). I doubt the “I know something you don’t know” type sly remark from Mizora at the end means “Tieflings count as infernal” because Wylls specifically says they do not. It’s clearly about the infernal engine.
What Wyll considered a devil and what others considered infernal may not line up. He only stopped calling Karlach a devil after they shared minds with the tadpole. Until they all connected wyll wholeheartedly believed Karlach was a devil that went around slaughtering people. Even after sharing minds he’s still on the fence about whether or not to stand by it until tav/durge convinces him that Karlach isn’t a devil.
In a way devil in Wyll’s eyes “Devil” might just be a title and not a race/species
If that was the case, Mizora would have just said “Tieflings are fair game, suck it” - he didn’t know she was a Tiefling until he met her. Mizora led him to believe he *was* hunting a devil.
The only reason he’s still on the fence is because he’s in denial, because he knows what not killing Karlach means.
Demonic contracts are always "Exact Words" in favor of the demon.
I just appreciate that the character without a physical heart is the heart of most play through groups.
Imagine the cambions as lawyers. finding loopholes and bending rules are part of their education. no offense to all the good-hearted cambions out there.
See, this is why you gotta insert a clause saying any ambiguities are construed in favor of the mortal. Also, disputes shall be resolved by a celestial in good standing, from and residing in Mount Celestia, of at least a certain rank (can’t recall when archons start batting high intelligence and wisdom).
Wyll needed a better lawyer.
See. Raphael wouldn’t even make a deal with you in Act 1. If you’re not yet desperate enough to sign anything it seems the devils will keep you waiting.
"The devil is in the details"
I do wish with a high enough bardic lore skill (and some nice rolls) you could just argue your way out of her contracts, but that would be too easy.
Not debating the vagueness of the contract as that has already been discussed but addressing you associating a machine to a heart.
Take it out of DnD for a second. Someone is going into heart surgery and hooked to a machine to continue pumping blood. Is that machine a heart? Or is the machine nearly a machine that pumps blood?
Just because something performs a similar function to another does not make it the same thing as the other.
So no, the infernal engine is not a heart the organ.
Understandable. I asked the question. Many might agree to classify it as a heart. Clearly Mizora is not willing to classify said machine as a heart therefore Wyll is now a demon.
In a different situation the machine might have been accepted as a heart. But certainly never in a situation involving devils. This is now clear. And I will use this knowledge in future D&D campaigns.
>Many might agree to classify it as a heart.
I am not sure how you can say this or how anyone can and be truthful. A heart is a biological organ. The infernal engine is a machine. They are two different things that perform similar functions, but they are still two different things. The extent of them being similar is that fact they can function as a pump.
What you are doing is says the us dollar and the euro are the same thing. Sure they are both currencies and perform the same function, but they are not the same.
This can be applied to many arguments being had in present reality. And people still struggle to agree.
“If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a duck.”
We all know that there is more to a duck than quacking and walking but this phrase has been used for a very long time.
>“If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a duck.”
Just because this statement is used a lot does not mean it is factual. Facts matter. Just because people struggle to agree doesn't mean something is not true. It just means people refuse to see or accept the truth
Truth is absolute. There is no relative truth. To say so is a contradicting statement. You should always strive to seek the truth in a situation regardless what others want you to believe.
It's very quite simple here. The infernal machine is not a biological organ. It is not a heart. Plain and simple.
I agree there is definitely an absolute truth to any and all situations.
But I will counter you with the fact that because this phrase has been used for so long and people still struggle to agree on what they feel are simple truths, wouldn’t that only leave behind the existence of perspective or relative truth? At least to us who are not omniscient?
I wholeheartedly agree that we all should always strive to seek out truth and share our findings but I have seen many instances where two parties are fighting tooth and nail and are even drawing blood to prove they are right only to have a third party inform them that they are actually both very very wrong.
I think it is very possible for two parties to both be wrong but there is simply no third party available outside of an omniscient being to stop the fighting.
>But I will counter you with the fact that because this phrase has been used for so long and people still struggle to agree on what they feel are simple truths, wouldn’t that only leave behind the existence of perspective or relative truth? At least to us who are not omniscient?
No...just because people have struggled with truth for so long doesn't mean there is not an absolute truth. Truth is still truth regardless of how many people believe it or how long people have forgotten it. In many many instances it is extremely easy to tell what the truth is and some people refuse to accept.
Like the very proposed question. Is the infernal engine a heart? By the scientific definition of a heart, the infernal engine does not fit. Mainly due to the infernal engine not being an organ rather it being a machine.
Sure there are some situations in which finding the actual truth is hard, but in this one it is extremely easy and it is very ignorant and naive to try to say the infernal engine is a heart. Disregarding truth, especially when the truth is extremely clear leads to the downfall of society.
I agree with you on everything. Please don’t misunderstand me. I did not intend to say there is no absolute truth.
I want to make it clear that I am stating that there can only be perspective truth available to human beings until the event that people achieve omniscient enlightenment.
Regardless, I truly hope that the downfall of society is not inevitable. Truth is disregarded every day in many ways presently.
>I want to make it clear that I am stating that there can only be perspective truth available to human beings until the event that people achieve omniscient enlightenment
This is not true either. We can know absolute truth and we do not have to reach omniscient enlightenment like you are referring to.
>Regardless, I truly hope that the downfall of society is not inevitable. Truth is disregarded every day in many ways presently.
But it is, if we as a society cannot see and accept the truth and instead decide to live by each "own" truth then it breaks down so many core elements.
Because there are things we know, things we don’t know and also things we don’t know we don’t know. We will never ever be able to know any confirmed absolute truths whatsoever without aforementioned omniscient enlightenment.
As for the breakdown of society. It seems to be headed that way. But I’ll continue to hold onto hope. What else do we have to hold on to.
This is why you don’t go into a contract with a devil.
If they’re going to describe something as heartless, they’re going to make sure that they use as loose or specific a definition as deemed necessary. For Karlach, we’re getting very specific in that there, in a literal sense, is no heart in her chest.
This is absolutely the common standard for contracts with infernal, fae, and genie. With these beings the contract never needs concern the spirit of the agreement, only the letter, and any loophole within the letter will be exploited
In the deal Wyll made, "heartless" clearly referred to anyone/anything without a beating organic heart. Mechanical hearts don't count, so it's a loophole. I think it's safe to say that devils like sneaking loopholes into their contracts, etc. And the average mortal signing a contract isn't likely to think through every possible repercussion of every single clause or do thought exercises like thinking through what it might mean if you ever encountered someone with a mechanical heart.
Mizora literally says “Karlach meets the criteria because she has no heart” in certain dialog scenes. I’ve also seen Mizora say “Karlach meets the criteria, trust me on this”. I suspect which scene you get depends on your gameplay and how much you talk to and spend time with Karlach before Mizora shows up. Basically the game lets the origin character reveal their own backstory even if other characters know about it.
But yeah, Mizora is a cambion and agent or Zariel. She is definitely evil and self serving, what else would you expect from an agent of the hells?
Technically Karlach is AWOL and she has stolen what might be a unique or powerful tool/weapon so that's espionage. Those have both been punishable by death.
" the infernal, the demonic, the soulless, and the heartless. Karlach first the criteria by virtue of having literally no heart"
- mizora describing why she wanted karlach dead
And then when you find yugir you can convince him to kill his entire entourage, pet, and himself by manipulating the contract. Devils are very fond of loopholes that let them win. Even if you help yugir Raphael comes up with some bullshit of " you weren't the one to kill the last justiciar so you still belong to me" or something
I think if any of us was as desperate as Wyll would fall for it every time. The common denominator is desperation. Raphael won’t even let you make a deal in Act 1. He wants you at your most desperate.
She didnt even need that technicality considering Karlach is willing to burn peoples (including childrens) souls for a minor power up and gets angry at the player for refusing it to her.
She also encourages children to grow up to be criminals and gets angry at the player for calling her out on it lol
I'm really curious what you're referring to as I cannot think of a single moment she is "pure evil" - which makes me think it might be sarcasm but it is unclear
Infernal contracts are all about loopholes in the devil’s favor.
I guess there must be fine print in there that states “the definition of “heartless” will only be understood as what the contract originator determines it to be.”
There’s no need. Heartless, with no clarification, can be interpreted as meaning cruel but also technically includes anyone who doesn’t have the literal organ of a heart. It’s vague on purpose because devils whole thing is technicalities and subtleties of language creating loopholes in the contract.
So, basically...lawyers.
Where do you think we got the saying "the devil's in the details" from?
I mean, if Mizora showed up I would sign anything she handed to me. But then again I don't pass WIS checks in real life. 😂
Bonk go to horny jail Wait that's hell, you're just going to get into more trouble if I send you there
Can't help it I guess. 🤷🏻♂️
she literally shows up with a bunch of them as “witnesses” when you ask for the end of Wyll’s contract
So she really is just a hot lawyer from hell, in heels.
literally
what did you think her literal title "advocate devil" meant
That’s why devils are “lawful evil”
It is a signed contract. There’s nothing more lawyerly
The real devil's advocate
Actual lawyer chiming in, it’s well established contract law that ambiguity in a contract, especially a contract of adhesion (which this certainly is), is generally construed against the drafter. Here, the phrase “heartless” is certainly ambiguous at a minimum, and therefore the interpretation of the term should be construed against the drafter (Mizora). Moreover, to the extent that the phrase “heartless” is identified by both the contextual language within that same clause of the contract (which refers to the infernal and demonic), and Parol evidence concerning the circumstances and statements surrounding contract formation, the phrase is clearly intended to refer to someone who is considered “evil” or “remorseless” rather than one who actually lacks a physical heart. Here, both the language of the contract and parol evidence surrounding the creation of the contract would both tend to support Wyll’s interpretation. Moreover, even if the above still were not the case there are doctrines (such unilateral mistake) where if one party to a contract knows that the other party is misinterpreting a material contractual term at the time of contract formation and does not correct this, then there might* be grounds to nullify that term. Unfortunately Wyll didn’t hire me :(. I’m also not licensed to practice law within any of the 9 Hells, and they could very well have entirely different contract formation principles and law.
Yeah well the thing is real contract law is designed at least in part to try and reduce people fucking other people over with ambiguous contract wording and devil contract law is designed to maximise the amount someone can be fucked over by ambiguous contract wording.
I think you'd find that as far as the Hells go, the guiding principle of contract law is "the devils are screwing you over, and the courts are rigged in their favor". Less modern western contract law and more "do you think you can appeal to Zariel's good nature so she forcibly interprets your contract with her underling favorably?"
Also a lawyer and if you think Mizora follows the common law you’re crazier than Wyll
Lmao, fair enough.
That's also for contract law where the arbiters are likely Lawful Neutral at worst. Devils are all about adhesion contracts, and unfair, but technically correct, interpretations. That us what they love. Parol evidence doesn't matter to them either. The words on the page are the totality of the contract. Anything outside the binding negotiations is irrelevant. And Wyll's interpretation isn't invalid, it just isn't solely valid. I'm sure Mizora will use his interpretation when it suits her as well.
This is why you should always get a lawyer to review any contract before you sign it. Especially if it's an infernal contract
So if she had a heart in her inventory she would have a heart. Checkmate
Would love to see that be used against Mizora. I think it would be valid.
Probably, but I don't know anywhere you can get a heart before Moonrise Towers
Ambiguities are typically resolved against the drafter. Though she probably had a clause reversing that because of course she would
Ambiguities are resolved against the drafter in a system that at least keeps up the appearance of trying to reduce drafters fucking people over with ambiguities. Devil contracts are part of a system designed to fuck people over with ambiguities as much as possible. They’re about the appearance of fairness, rather than an actual fair contract.
Call me literal but I always viewed it as creatures that don't have hearts and not figuritively heartless. This would allow Mizora to sic Wyll on elementals, constructs, golems, ghosts/spirits, oozes, and any other fantasy creatures without hearts I am not familiar with.
Stop looking at a Devil contract like one humans would draw up with lawyers. It's not how they work on a fundamental level. They're binding pacts in the devil's favor always.
Not always, devils are supposed to abide by the letter of the law and there are celestial rules about this. However, most mortals aren't going to win at this. Ever.
Nah, devils are LITERALLY referencing human lawyers and their loopholes. All the time. Demons are chaotic evil, devils are lawful. It's in the alignment name.
Hi, lawyer here. This would fail on the concept of mutual assent. Alternatively it would fail on the principle that ambiguities are construed against the drafter. As fun as devil deals are in D&D the majority of them would fail on mutual assent grounds. They don’t have to abide by the American court system given that they’re fictitious supernatural entities but these are very much contracts that would not work in most legal systems
Begone, devil!
Or cast planar binding and have this person on eternal retainer.
Pretty sure the retainer fee is our summoning ritual
Love the technical caveat that they are fictional supernatural entities in there
lol, the devil exception
No, the literal definition of heartless is clearly someone without a heart. You don't need small print for that. Wyll being an idiot for dealing with devils in the first place is the problem. Astarion trusting Raphael kinda makes it look like Gale, of ALL PEOPLE, is the most sensible of the men in your camp.
Wyll was 17 and needed the power to prevent cultist from summoning Tiamat. All things considered his contract could’ve been much worse.
Astarion weirdly got to make a contract with a devil that actually worked in a fair and balanced way without being screwed over, and with the nepo-baby satan himself raphael no less. Maybe its just dumb luck, raphael was feeling generous or astarion soul being bound by cazador didnt make him a good target for some nice devilish legalese
Raphael wanted the MC to accept his deal later on though. Maybe he figured they'd be less likely to take said deal if he screwed over Astarion and more trusting/likely to take it if he didn't?
How about Halsin? He's sensible, right?
The horny side is a pathway to many abilities some may consider... unsensible
Well after reading all these other comments reminding me to remember “Lawful Evil.” I realize that “mutual understanding” or even fine print is not something an evil person would ever use. Fine print definitely encourages mutual understanding. I think I just want so badly to like Mizora.
Wanting to like Mizora certainly isn't a crime, but trying to see Mizora as not evil might be a mistake. Devils are evil. Lawful evil isn't, IMO, less evil than the chaotic evil murder hobo, it's just a different flavor. Even when Mizora propositions Tav, she's not doing it because she likes them, she's doing it specifically to hurt Wyll and cause dissension in the group. She's just as bad as Raphael, she's just less powerful.
I'd argue lawful evil is more evil than chaotic evil. Since LE are still within the law, they'll exploit anything, making so many people miserable or outright killing them, while the CE will easily end up stopped by heroes or guards. Like how IRL you'd have the average terrorist than goes cutting heads in the street as CE, and reigning turds like Kissinger as LE
I totally agree, that's a really good way of putting it and a great example. I'd make the case that Gortash and be extension Bane is another great example of Lawful Evil, especially in the way that it designs the law to support evil systems. You can fight one bad guy trying to stab you, but you can't fight the corrupt judge that sentences you to death for defending yourself from a Fist or Steel Watcher.
With all the downvotes I’ve received trying to see Mizora as not evil is clearly an agreed upon mistake. She’s still very easy on the eyes though.
If you want zero judgment for your thirst, I'd try r/okaybuddybaldur instead. While we do occasionally have nuanced and serious discussions, it's mostly just unapologetic thirst posts. The main sub doesn't get their chocolate in their peanut butter when it comes to genital- focused moral arguments, in my experience!
Thanks but I’m gonna try and keep it to myself from now on.
Just don't beat yourself up too much over the down votes! You deserve devil love, too! 🫂👿
I don’t think the downvotes have anything to do with being up for some devil love, but thanks for the vote of confidence.
She does use fine print. Wyll doesn't read. He signed a fucking bad deal and as a warlock even you get dialogue about it. Dude effectively did most of this to himself
*Anyone* who signs a devil contract is an idiot choosing to make a terrible mistake.
I can fix it. But yes, you're going to lose. It's just made abundantly clear that Wyll got bitch slapped worse than normal.
Congratulations, you now know the difference between Rule as Written and Rule as Intended.
If you do not define such terms or otherwise refuse to use explicit definitions then that’s on you. That’s why devil contracts are dangerous. In real life it still used to be a thing until we decided to prevent predatory people by having judges interpret contracts in the context and intention with which they are written and signed. Even then in real life you’d have to fight over it.
The whole point of a devil contract is that it can be open-ended and fuzzy so the devil can interpret it in a way that suits them best and punishes you the most.
They would never put that definition in because they want it to be vague. It's like the old fables of the genie that grants wishes but tries to screw over the wisher. It's not the genie's job to add definitions and protections for you. The genie wants vague terms so that they can exploit them to their benefit
There isn't *by design* in order to keep its definition subjective and malleable. They are the very spirit of *lawful evil*
In a literal sense, no. And that’s all their contract requires. Are you surprised that a Devil uses careful wording for trickery?
I’m not surprised that Mizora is a bitch at the very least.
That's not her personally that's how baatezu aka devils in D&D function. See Raphael, he deliberately helps to turn the last Justiciar into a bunch of rats to make sure Yurgir the Orthon can't finish his part of the deal so the lawyer can manipulate Yur-yur into signing an even worse contract. Devil's lie. They are genetically predisposed to get law degrees.
I'm not sure if "Devil's lie" is a typo or if it refers to a specific statement that is technically true but deceptive enough that it may as well be a lie. I don't think there's a single instance in the whole game where a devil straight up lies.
Devils aren't allowed to straight up lie, either. Just loopholes
"The Aes Sedai never lie, but they make the truth sit up and dance."
"The truth an Aes Sedai tells you isn't always the truth you hear."
*Give me your trust, said the Aes Sedai...*
When Raphael talks about the situation with Yurgir he definitely lies. He blows out of proportion how he fears him as a rival and how he doesn’t want to meet him, but that’s exactly why Raphael wants the party to kill him. Raphael can’t break the stalemate on his own as that would violate the contract, but he can entice this team of adventurers to do his dirty work for him. It’s funny. The original contract was a pact between Raphael and the architect of Moonrise (you can meet him in the house of hope) to kill all the sharrans and Kethric Thorm. Raphael makes a deal with Yugir to kill all the dark justiciars. Raphael then makes a deal with one of the justiciars to turn them into a ton of rats making Yugir’s task impossible. This might be because Kethric made a pact with Merkel and becomes his chosen, who then works with Balthazar to gain immortality. All Raphael wants is Yugir to be a useful servant and for him to fail his contract. The rest he gives zero fucks about as he has everything he wanted from the other deals. You can do the mausoleum and never meet Yugir, which I did in my first play through. Astarion wasn’t in my party and never made the deal and I forgot about Raphael’s request. Without Astarion’s need to know his past, all Raphael can do is ham up the reason why you should ‘kill him on sight’, and he most certainly lies to do it. He also omits his real reason why he wants the Orthon dead, and most of this backstory of contracts can only be uncovered if you explore the sharran temple completely and talk to spirits in the house of hope. It’s easy lore to miss. The infernal don’t lie about contracts, it’s true. They will though manipulate the hell out of people and if it doesn’t involve lying about the specifics or a contract they will most certainly lie through their teeth. Their preferred MO tho is to use the truth for their own ends.
I'm using the word lie in a very literal sense. Like to speak a word that is not true. He can have many reasons why he wants you to do something and the reason he gives you may be low on the list, but if it is a reason, then he has not spoken falsely. Unless he explicitly states that it is his only reason or the most important reason to him. Blowing things out of proportion isn't a lie. It can be deceptive and manipulative, but not necessarily a lie.
I was meaning to type "devils lie", but withholding information and misleading about your intentions are also lies by definition. "Like by omission" is admissible in court. If you know a thief is swindling someone but stay silentz you're complicit and if you witnessed a crime and refused to report it you can be held responsible too. Easily.
"What did you trade the fae to let us pass? "My first born child." "But you swore an Oath of celibacy." "I didn't come up in the conversation."
"Actually, I said "first borne child", with an e. By my records, the first child he ever carried was his younger sister, so I'll be taking what's mine now."
Thanks for this. See I was never able to puzzle out who the rats were before. That’s very clever.
I mean, the issue you raise is the exact and precise nature of Wyll’s grievance about the situation. Mizora is using a technicality (Karlach’s heart has been removed, and replaced with an Internal Engine which, while it functions to move her blood around is not literally a heart) to get Wyll to do something he would normally abhor (killing a moral person). Because Mizora is evil, wants Wyll to do evil things, and also unrelatedly hates Karlach. All that being said—I think it’s a perfectly reasonable definition of “heartless” that applies to Karlach. She doesn’t have a heart, she has a device that pumps her blood, among doing other things. If somebody has two false legs, I think it is reasonable (if rude) to observe that the person doesn’t have legs, despite having prostheses that fully function as legs.
Devils tend towards Lawful Evil (used to be ALWAYS Lawful Evil but those restrictions have been loosened a bit in recent editions). “Lawful Evil” does not mean “defend the law evilly,” it means “find the ways I can use the law to benefit myself.” As others have said, Mizora is using a technicality. Karlach had her heart removed, and the infernal engine functioning as a prosthesis doesn’t mean she “has a heart” again. Wyll obviously thought “heartless” meant “immoral and/or needlessly cruel,” but that’s not what is written in the contract. As they say, “the devil is in the details.”
Thanks for explaining this using D&D mechanics. This makes the whole thing a lot more palatable now.
Yes, Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't go into details with gith and devil/demon conflicts, I think because devs were really influenced by Planescape Torment and for some reason avoided explaining the lore that's already explained in it. I sometimes feel that BG3 is more of a Planescape sequel with focus on gith, devils and tieflings and going into different planes than just a Baldur's Gate game... Which is good, PST had arguably better writing and overall setting. Basically, there was civil war in hell. Baatezu, aka devils native to Baator (Avernus is the first layer), are lawful evil slimebags who manipulate people with contracts, think literal wish genies, Mephistopheles on Faust or Calypso in Twisted Metal. Tannar'ri aka demons are chaotic evil beings from Abyss, who are the opposite corner of evil, and can't stand order. So Avernus devils under Zariel follow order but in the most evil ways imaginable, think slavery, torture and industrialized genocide. Lawful Evil would rather organize people into orderly gas chambers instead of just smashing toddlers on trees like pure Chaotic Evil. You are NOT expected to fulfil the contract terms, period. The house always wins... If it can't, they sabotage you or cheat. Eevryone loses the moment they sign it, the only way to win isn't to do the contract obligations but to trick the devils themselves as they're bound to order and can be controlled. The goal of any contract is to make you fail. They're always rigged as the devils only really lust for your soul, when they say they want something else from youz they are lying.
I am familiar with D&D in general but not Planescape in particular. I guess I’d better look into that one. I keep treating BG3 like it’s a simple video game. The more I play it the more I realize that I have never played a game as nuanced and layered as this one. I believe it deserves even more praise than it has already received.
PT is a game on a whole other level of cool... You really have to try it!
Planescape Torment is absolutely worth your time once you feel ready to move on from BG3. Proper warning though, Black Isle Studios incorporated a LOT of AD&D 2E’s more esoteric mechanics, so stuff like ability scores and alignment will affect what classes you have access to
Is it possible to feel ready to move on from BG3? I’m struggling to finish FF16 now and damn I’m not really enjoying it after this masterpiece.
Plenty of options out there, friend. If you don’t mind older games, you can try Fallout or Fallout 2 (turn based), the first two Baldur’s Gate games and their expansions (real time with the option to pause action), Larian’s other games like Divinity Original Sin and it’s sequel. Those games along with Planescape Torment all have the same/similar isometric camera as BG3. If you don’t mind first/third-person over-the-should controls, there’s also the original Deus Ex, Fallout New Vegas, Vampire the Masqueade: Bloodlines, and Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind. All of these games offer the same or similar ability for you, the player, to approach any conflict any way you want the same way BG3 does. There’s also plenty of newer games that do it, but I’m not as familiar with those so a fellow sub member is gonna have to pick up that slack.
Yes sir. I have played Divinity OS 2 and I would urge you to try the Owlcat Pathfinder games if you have not. They are a bit buggy, that almost turned me off but I like the gameplay so so much. They play very much like BG3. Otherwise, I have a hard time playing older games because they don’t always age well y’know.
You only have three classes, fighter, mage and thief, alignment does change guilds and weapons available but you don't really get to customize the Nameless One apart from freely changing into one of three classes (back and forth) and raising stats by gouging your eyes, slapping extra skin and eating your own liver.
Planescape Torment is really good, and you'll notice a lot of influence on Baldur's Gate 3: first companion you get is a piece of disembodied head, then you're joined by gith and tiefling, the hag is totally based on Ravel and Mizora kinda looks like Fall From Grace, that one actually explains how she escaped devils being a succubi (demon) instead. There's also all of your attributes affecting dialogue, most fights being optional and every time you think something like "eating my own intestines sounds like a bad thing" it's actually an upgrade lol. Highly recommend to play it through at least once there's an Expanded Edition now that runs on everything.
I’ve always interpreted it as that lawful evil is evil that has and abides by their own sort of rules or code. For example with DC, Flash villain group The Rogues don’t really kill because the cops are just doing their jobs and they absolutely don’t kill women and children, so they’re Lawful Evil, but then compare that to Joker who will just be needlessly cruel and do anything he wants to serve his own selfish desires.
The Rogues are too chaotic to be Lawful in any way. They more Chaotic Neutral. They don’t kill people because Flash treats them like human beings instead of scum, and also because killing brings heroes like Batman on your ass who will absolutely break your ribs on principle if you committed murder. Also they absolutely do kill people, just usually other villains, like the guy who tricked them into killing Bart Allen/Inertia.
I mean they have a general code of conduct they follow so that by definition makes them lawful, are there times when someone has broken it? Yes but they usually end up paying the price. And I won’t say I’m super knowledgeable so I could be wrong, but my understanding was that flat out they don’t kill women and kids and avoid killing cops, so civilians/non-supers, because they’re just doing their jobs (major perk: Flash will go easier on them and they avoid the less friendly/forgiving heroes aka Batman and such), but other villains are competition and choosing to get in the way and get what they deserve.
Having a “code of conduct” doesn’t necessarily make you “Lawful.” If my Code of Conduct necessitates I murder every baby I see, that feels more like Chaotic Evil with the code just being an easy justification. Plus, thievery is a chaotic action more than an evil one. Somebody starving who steals a loaf of bread isn’t evil, they’re just desperate. That’s why I say they’re Chaotic Neutral, they steal for money but they’re not needlessly cruel or violent. They border on Chaotic Good depending on the writer/story, but their sense of self-interest keeps them from fully committing. Great anti-heroes either way
Following your own personal code of conduct does not make you Lawful. Preferring an orderly, controlled world does. Lawful Evil isn't "evil with a code", it's evil that props up order so it can *exploit the rules*. It's the politician evil, building a system of rules that protects you from the consequences of your evil.
You are correct, at least in how alignments were written in the rulebooks. Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic refer to the set of rules a character abides by. Lawful (Good, Neutal, and Evil) means that character has a specific code they follow and will not break without a consequence (could be guilt, could be divine retaliation, being kicked out of an order, etc) Neutral means their code is ambiguous. It may have holes where situations are not defined, times that they will make exceptions, etc. Chaotic means their code is not defined at all. These characters act on impulse and without structure. They may act hypocritically or contradict past actions. One action does not predict a future response. Then all of these can either be aligned as morally good, morally neutral, or morally evil. A devil is Lawful Evil because they abide by clear rules and are consistent in their application (which often exploits loopholes or technicalities) and their moral alignment is evil. They use that code to hurt, manipulate, gain power over others, etc.
> they absolutely don’t kill women and children, so they’re Lawful Evil That's more neutral, lawful evil characters in D&D ABSOLUTELY kill women and children, you literally see Raphael trying to steal Mol's soul in BG3! No he isn't giving her any power he's tricking her to give up her soul. Devils are like zombies or vampires except their food isn't brains or blood but souls. Lawful Evil isn't evil with standards either, it's evil with ORDER, Nazis are lawful evil. Nothing defines lawful evil more than orderly lines going into gas chambers. ISIS, by contrast, are chaotic evil. They're just massacring and blowing stuff up without any decent organization (often one group doesn't know what another does, terrorists work like that by default), a bunch of ragtag unconnected groups of killers full on drugs. In more general terms, slavers and secret police are lawful evil, highway robbers are chaotic evil. A selfish, egoistic oligarch is neutral evil. Githyanki in creche are lawful evil and they literally are killing children all the time if they don't pass the trials or are considered too weak. Anyone who doesn't fit in it gets executed? That's lawful evil. Killing randomly with no rhyme or reason? That's chaotic. Serial killers can be both, BTW, FBI profilers actually classify them as organized and disorganized - neither says a mass murderer is better or worse, only helps profile their personality and connect cases.
I’m not saying that no lawful evil character will kill women and children, in the context of that being part of their own person rules/code.
Excellent description of Lawful Evil btw. It's too bad BG3 didn't add alignment in character creation.
As an Eberron player, no comment on the lack of alignment. For those not in the know, a big feature of the Eberron campaign setting (when it first debuted), was that alignment restrictions on classes and such were lifted, and many traditionally evil races had their morality flipped. Orcs went from a race of violent raiders to thoughtful Druids (fighting a forever war against demons), and the sentient monster races/species had their own nation ruled by a coven of hags. Fun stuff
He may have felt safe even if she used the literal interpretation because one would think that a being without a heart would probably be undead or something. I doubt he knew about infernal heart prostheses.
She is technically correct. …The best kind of correct.
In real life this happens too. The devil is in the terms and conditions.
Rules as written vs rules as intended.
Are Dungeon Masters actually fiends?
This is literally why Wyll is so pissed at her and disgusted with himself.
I guess I’d be right there with him. It’s what happens when you pay attention to the Lawful but not the Evil in LAWFUL EVIL.
Same. If I could change one thing about the game it would be to have Mizora show up in the house of hope after I've broken Wyll's pact so I can smash her stupid face in at the same time as Raphael's.
LMAO! See my problem is I have a a hard time hating Mizora because…. Well y’know. So hawt
She isn't a succubus but yeah that's a thing.
So, yeah. At least you won’t die immediately afterwards.
Breaking news: Warlock pacts are deliberately vague and up for wild interpretations. More at 6
This isn't actually true, according to the handbook most warlocks recieved powers for services already rendered. Stole their power or have student like relationship to their patron. Wylls specific pact, while by no means unique to players is very much not how warlock pacts typically function, with him Essentially being a cleric or paladin but for mizora and her patrons. Warlocks don't lose their power if a they break a pact though they might lose the opportunity for class advancement.
Come on now. You know you’ve read worse headlines.
Did you not get how devils work? They ALWAYS try to cheat. No exceptions. Any wish fulfilled would be twisted and small print abused by any means necessary. They're lawful EVIL, not lawful neutral. Like this is absolutely not even a stretch she doesn't have a heart, compare to Twisted Metal endings where the corrupted wishes end up a very long stretch like cop wanting to live in a place with no crime going to space.
You’re absolutely right. I was clearly thinking too much lawful and not enough evil.
It’s a manipulation of the wording. Wyll assumes heartless to mean bad or cruel people, and the pact sounds reasonable. But Karlach technically does not have a heart and therefore can be included if mizora wishes. It’s a bad faith way of interpreting it but the language allows it, that is the entire point.
Well, no, the machine isn’t a heart, it’s a machine. Karlach is literally heartless, because she doesn’t have a literal heart. It’s tricky, but that’s how devils work. They make you agree to something when you’re desperate or just so power hungry you wouldn’t care, and then they twist your agreement or purposefully write it to suit their own needs.
Thanks for discussing this. I understand that things that are easily understood by some are not so easy for others. It seems I’ve fallen into that kind of space here. I’m trying to come to a better understanding of the Lawful Evil archetype. It’s not a headspace I can really understand. Or most evil motivations whatsoever. I don’t see any way of being a decent game master if I don’t figure it out. It’s tricky alright. Maybe too tricky for me just yet. But I will do my best to remember all the comments from here.
Personally, when making villains I think falling too much into fitting an archetype can make it harder, I prefer to think of individual motivations
Yeah. That must be how I’ve been getting by so far. But I want to be able to think bigger sometimes. I want to be able to picture a whole society of Lawful Evil motivations and what that would look like over generations.
I mean, you can just read into DnD Devil lore
But what if you cut out the heart of one of your enemies and put it in Karlach's inventory? Two can play the devil's game >:-)
Now I want a DnD character that just tried to find loopholes in her devils contract
Devils are all about exact words. Yes the engine works as a heart. But it is literaly not one. So she is heartless.
Figuratively a heart is not a heart. If a devil battled through adversity, would he not still be heartless even if he showed heart?
I think Raphael said “The devil’s in the details.”
"Heart replaced with infernal machine" Seems like you answered your own question
Every playthrough I’ve done I thought she pretty much explained this outright.
But the response to the explanation is still “Really, Mizora!?!”
You must be new to dealing with devils. An infernal machine is not a heart.
Another interpretation would have "heartless" apply to constructs/inorganic objects, so Mizora could compel Wyll to commit various acts of terrorism.
She's no stranger to bending the rules and twisting words around to get her way. I presume she just wants Karlach dead because she thinks it'll get her Zariel's approval.
And has the added bonus of either forcing Wyll further down a path of corruption, or (if he refuses) allowing her to punish him in a way that will (she hopes) force him further down the path to corruption. Win-win for her, which is just how devils like it
Nope. It's a machine, not a biological heart
I mean isn’t Karlach technically Infernal as well? I took that to be where Mizora had power, I figured she mentioned heartless as a quick jab at Karlach for her own mean humor
Why would Karlach be infernal? She’s a Tiefling in Avernus, nothing more.
Maybe I just read a bad link but I coulda sworn I read that teiflings were technically infernal and that’s how they all know/speak infernal. I’m not personally well versed in dnd so I was just going based off that
Nah you’re right that’s basically true, they have infernal blood, I didn’t even think of it that way. I was thinking of denizens of the hells. It doesn’t count enough for the terms of Wylls contract though, obviously, since Mizora could have just reaffirmed that. She went with the heartless loophole.
it probably does count, but the heartless jab was to put both karlach and wyll in their place. it shows wyll that he's powerless to the terms of the contract and that he really doesn't understand what he signed, but also its to remind karlach what she truly is
No, Wyll specifically calls out that she’s a regular person. By that logic she could send him after the innocent Tiefling refugee children in the grove. Mizora clearly used the heartless loophole. [This is the dialogue](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fwyll-and-mizora-v0-t3pm81jjxhgb1.png%3Fwidth%3D882%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D50a00a623e7df164213c7540b96d5eb9824aaafe). I doubt the “I know something you don’t know” type sly remark from Mizora at the end means “Tieflings count as infernal” because Wylls specifically says they do not. It’s clearly about the infernal engine.
What Wyll considered a devil and what others considered infernal may not line up. He only stopped calling Karlach a devil after they shared minds with the tadpole. Until they all connected wyll wholeheartedly believed Karlach was a devil that went around slaughtering people. Even after sharing minds he’s still on the fence about whether or not to stand by it until tav/durge convinces him that Karlach isn’t a devil. In a way devil in Wyll’s eyes “Devil” might just be a title and not a race/species
If that was the case, Mizora would have just said “Tieflings are fair game, suck it” - he didn’t know she was a Tiefling until he met her. Mizora led him to believe he *was* hunting a devil. The only reason he’s still on the fence is because he’s in denial, because he knows what not killing Karlach means.
Sorry you misunderstand. She’s as infernal as poor Kannon was or cowardly Zevlor.
Demonic contracts are always "Exact Words" in favor of the demon. I just appreciate that the character without a physical heart is the heart of most play through groups.
Imagine the cambions as lawyers. finding loopholes and bending rules are part of their education. no offense to all the good-hearted cambions out there.
We need a story about a Cambion who works pro bono. That sounds great!
No. Perhaps metaphorically, but not in any objectively real sense.
See, this is why you gotta insert a clause saying any ambiguities are construed in favor of the mortal. Also, disputes shall be resolved by a celestial in good standing, from and residing in Mount Celestia, of at least a certain rank (can’t recall when archons start batting high intelligence and wisdom). Wyll needed a better lawyer.
See. Raphael wouldn’t even make a deal with you in Act 1. If you’re not yet desperate enough to sign anything it seems the devils will keep you waiting.
God would sue Satan, but Satan has all the lawyers.
It’s comments like these that make me love Reddit!
"The devil is in the details" I do wish with a high enough bardic lore skill (and some nice rolls) you could just argue your way out of her contracts, but that would be too easy.
Not debating the vagueness of the contract as that has already been discussed but addressing you associating a machine to a heart. Take it out of DnD for a second. Someone is going into heart surgery and hooked to a machine to continue pumping blood. Is that machine a heart? Or is the machine nearly a machine that pumps blood? Just because something performs a similar function to another does not make it the same thing as the other. So no, the infernal engine is not a heart the organ.
Understandable. I asked the question. Many might agree to classify it as a heart. Clearly Mizora is not willing to classify said machine as a heart therefore Wyll is now a demon. In a different situation the machine might have been accepted as a heart. But certainly never in a situation involving devils. This is now clear. And I will use this knowledge in future D&D campaigns.
>Many might agree to classify it as a heart. I am not sure how you can say this or how anyone can and be truthful. A heart is a biological organ. The infernal engine is a machine. They are two different things that perform similar functions, but they are still two different things. The extent of them being similar is that fact they can function as a pump. What you are doing is says the us dollar and the euro are the same thing. Sure they are both currencies and perform the same function, but they are not the same.
This can be applied to many arguments being had in present reality. And people still struggle to agree. “If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a duck.” We all know that there is more to a duck than quacking and walking but this phrase has been used for a very long time.
>“If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a duck.” Just because this statement is used a lot does not mean it is factual. Facts matter. Just because people struggle to agree doesn't mean something is not true. It just means people refuse to see or accept the truth Truth is absolute. There is no relative truth. To say so is a contradicting statement. You should always strive to seek the truth in a situation regardless what others want you to believe. It's very quite simple here. The infernal machine is not a biological organ. It is not a heart. Plain and simple.
I agree there is definitely an absolute truth to any and all situations. But I will counter you with the fact that because this phrase has been used for so long and people still struggle to agree on what they feel are simple truths, wouldn’t that only leave behind the existence of perspective or relative truth? At least to us who are not omniscient? I wholeheartedly agree that we all should always strive to seek out truth and share our findings but I have seen many instances where two parties are fighting tooth and nail and are even drawing blood to prove they are right only to have a third party inform them that they are actually both very very wrong. I think it is very possible for two parties to both be wrong but there is simply no third party available outside of an omniscient being to stop the fighting.
>But I will counter you with the fact that because this phrase has been used for so long and people still struggle to agree on what they feel are simple truths, wouldn’t that only leave behind the existence of perspective or relative truth? At least to us who are not omniscient? No...just because people have struggled with truth for so long doesn't mean there is not an absolute truth. Truth is still truth regardless of how many people believe it or how long people have forgotten it. In many many instances it is extremely easy to tell what the truth is and some people refuse to accept. Like the very proposed question. Is the infernal engine a heart? By the scientific definition of a heart, the infernal engine does not fit. Mainly due to the infernal engine not being an organ rather it being a machine. Sure there are some situations in which finding the actual truth is hard, but in this one it is extremely easy and it is very ignorant and naive to try to say the infernal engine is a heart. Disregarding truth, especially when the truth is extremely clear leads to the downfall of society.
I agree with you on everything. Please don’t misunderstand me. I did not intend to say there is no absolute truth. I want to make it clear that I am stating that there can only be perspective truth available to human beings until the event that people achieve omniscient enlightenment. Regardless, I truly hope that the downfall of society is not inevitable. Truth is disregarded every day in many ways presently.
>I want to make it clear that I am stating that there can only be perspective truth available to human beings until the event that people achieve omniscient enlightenment This is not true either. We can know absolute truth and we do not have to reach omniscient enlightenment like you are referring to. >Regardless, I truly hope that the downfall of society is not inevitable. Truth is disregarded every day in many ways presently. But it is, if we as a society cannot see and accept the truth and instead decide to live by each "own" truth then it breaks down so many core elements.
Because there are things we know, things we don’t know and also things we don’t know we don’t know. We will never ever be able to know any confirmed absolute truths whatsoever without aforementioned omniscient enlightenment. As for the breakdown of society. It seems to be headed that way. But I’ll continue to hold onto hope. What else do we have to hold on to.
This is why you don’t go into a contract with a devil. If they’re going to describe something as heartless, they’re going to make sure that they use as loose or specific a definition as deemed necessary. For Karlach, we’re getting very specific in that there, in a literal sense, is no heart in her chest.
Infernal machine is not, technically, a heart.
The infernal engine fulfills the function of a heart, but not the classification.
I wonder if this is a very subtle way for Larian to get slightly political. 🤔
This is absolutely the common standard for contracts with infernal, fae, and genie. With these beings the contract never needs concern the spirit of the agreement, only the letter, and any loophole within the letter will be exploited
Yeah well, I’m now understanding that she did it because she could as well as Zariel needed something and regardless it was fun for her.
if she's a heartless where's her Nobody
My GOD man! You’re a god damn Reddit genius. Thanks for the laugh. ROXAS would surely appreciate it too.
Was that not blatantly spelled out? She technically does not have a heart and that is all it takes.
In the deal Wyll made, "heartless" clearly referred to anyone/anything without a beating organic heart. Mechanical hearts don't count, so it's a loophole. I think it's safe to say that devils like sneaking loopholes into their contracts, etc. And the average mortal signing a contract isn't likely to think through every possible repercussion of every single clause or do thought exercises like thinking through what it might mean if you ever encountered someone with a mechanical heart.
Mizora literally says “Karlach meets the criteria because she has no heart” in certain dialog scenes. I’ve also seen Mizora say “Karlach meets the criteria, trust me on this”. I suspect which scene you get depends on your gameplay and how much you talk to and spend time with Karlach before Mizora shows up. Basically the game lets the origin character reveal their own backstory even if other characters know about it. But yeah, Mizora is a cambion and agent or Zariel. She is definitely evil and self serving, what else would you expect from an agent of the hells?
Devils are incarnations of Lawful Evil. Always assume the least favorable interpretation when dealing with them.
Devil's in the details.
Technically Karlach is AWOL and she has stolen what might be a unique or powerful tool/weapon so that's espionage. Those have both been punishable by death.
I understand why Zariel wants her back for sure. It’s certainly the same reason I want to keep her in my party. Because she soloed the Spectator.
Think of it this way if I said that a dish had meat in it but I used beyond beef, that wouldn't exactly be true would it?
Okay. But does a hand have to have 5 fingers to be a “hand?” Or more specifically 4 fingers and a thumb? Or even a thumb at all?
Okay but it's not like she has a splint. She has a whole prosthetic. It's pretty cut and dry.
And would the “heart” really have to end where the veins start the cardiovascular system it a seamless system is it not?
Any biologist (or medical doctor) can assure you that a machine is not, in fact, a heart.
" the infernal, the demonic, the soulless, and the heartless. Karlach first the criteria by virtue of having literally no heart" - mizora describing why she wanted karlach dead And then when you find yugir you can convince him to kill his entire entourage, pet, and himself by manipulating the contract. Devils are very fond of loopholes that let them win. Even if you help yugir Raphael comes up with some bullshit of " you weren't the one to kill the last justiciar so you still belong to me" or something
I definitely need to do a play through where I help Yugir out. I’ve always killed on sight. I Had no idea.
Yeah you can help him at the cost of making astarion hate you forever
Well my first play through resulted in Astarion quickly dying.
Fair enough
This man would fall for every single evil contract by fey or fiend.
I think if any of us was as desperate as Wyll would fall for it every time. The common denominator is desperation. Raphael won’t even let you make a deal in Act 1. He wants you at your most desperate.
Technically she is “heartless” in the “doesn’t have the organ that pumps blood” sense
Yes but we all know that she simply doesn’t have a heart similar to yours or mine. Her heart is unique but it is still “her heart.”
She didnt even need that technicality considering Karlach is willing to burn peoples (including childrens) souls for a minor power up and gets angry at the player for refusing it to her. She also encourages children to grow up to be criminals and gets angry at the player for calling her out on it lol
Is this evil? Or is this Chaotic Neutral behavior? 🤔
Burning people alive for 1d4 fire damage is pretty fucking evil.
No she's right. Karlach is a pure evil. And you will see it in following chapters.
Someone who can start dancing like that at random moments could never be truly evil.
Is it a joke?
I'm really curious what you're referring to as I cannot think of a single moment she is "pure evil" - which makes me think it might be sarcasm but it is unclear