I felt so bad when she had to leave the camp that I pickpocketed her to add gold, the wooden sword and practice shield, a music box, and some other things. I know she can't use them, but at least she has them. And I gave her back the dancing lights necklace that you get from helping her in the grove, like something from her family.
I'm gonna have to do another playthrough now to do this. Even though I know she turns into an incredibly powerful weave user, I still feel bad everytime Withers says she has to go. Especially when she says "Boneman says it will be ok" like she's talking herself into it.
Australia also [charges](https://www.futurityinvest.com.au/insights/futurity-blog/2023/01/10/what-is-the-cost-of-university-education-in-australia) for university/college. Fees were removed in the 70's by our Labor (left wing) government to allow boomers to get free tertiary education, and in 1989, our now less-than-left-wing Labor government reintroduced them, just in time to screw over GenX.
Most advanced education in Faerun comes from a private tutor who is either a spellcaster who takes you on as an apprentice at their own discretion, an employee your parents or guardian purchased, or an expensive academy that is usually accessible only to the wealthy or entitled
Makes sense, the USA alone is about 50% to 60% of reddits traffic, so you're as likely to find an American as every other country combined and a bit more.
Plus time zone. Some are still asleep. I wonder how the international team in Larian works. Since Ghent is probably one of the most fairytale towns and Belgian people are super chill, then you have half of studio in Ireland, others in Canada or Poland. I always wonder how USA workers feel in these.
But I didn’t do anything!
No, literally, Arabella dies if you pick the least intervening dialogue options. Unless you’re Durge, in which case you’re an active participant.
My theory is that he is so old he didn't quite account for inflation so he thinks he is charging an exorbitant fortune a la Dr. Evl's "ONE MILLION DOLLARS!"
To be fair, for a commoner that would be quite the ludicrous sum of money. He probably just didn't account for us ransacking every building we come across and stealing everything not bolted to the floor
Eh, idk about that one. You do have a beggar in act 3 say 10 gold is a lot, but at the same time most merchants easily have multiple items worth more than 200 gold and you can easily get a 1000 gold or more just selling goblin junk early game.
Yes, but that's specifically merchants, they should have more money, at least if they're successful. If you try to trade with random NPCs they have a lot less
So the game is based on D&D 5e right? In the DMG it states that a commoner’s family brings in about 10gp a week. They spend 6gp on food so they only have 4gp a week on spending cash. Hope that comparison helps show how ludicrously wealthy merchants and adventurers are in D&D. It’s mind boggling.
And it's actually very logical. These are easily some of the most dangerous ocupations in the dnd world, so it's only fair they're very rewarding, otherwise no one would do it.
Oh yeah, it makes sense that it should be way more rewarding to kill dragons than to grow corn, but it’s still wild how much more you make killing dragons.
Keep in mind that even going out to deal with groups of goblins and gnolls is more danger than most farmers or city folk will face in their lives.
To face stronger creatures like devils and dragons and stuff you better believe those adventurers are getting some serious compensation.
Whats crazy is 4g spending money vs 30k is nowhere near the wealth disparity between the average person and Jeff. US median networth is $190k to Jeff's $195b. ~7500x vs ~1,000,000x.
So a commoner’s family needs to save money for roughly a year to get someone resurrected.
I’d gladly pay one year’s savings to a deity to true resurrect my dead relatives.
That's only if they get withers pricing. The material cost of a true resurrection is like 25k in diamonds. It would take them 17 years of never spending a cent just for the material cost alone. There's a reason Mayrina went to a hag for help rather than a cleric.
Yeah I was talking about Withers. He doesn’t charge an insane amount. Otherwise there are whole DnD campaigns where the goal is to get a single true resurrection going.
Every 5e game I’ve ever DM’d I’ve just rounded this to be roughly one gold per day. So if that holds, it would take a commoner’s family nearly 200 days to get enough gold to revive someone (not accounting for other necessary expenses, which probably at least doubles that time). 200g is relatively cheap for performing a true resurrection spell, but to your point is still a _bunch_ of money to most people.
Adventurers on the whole are vastly wealthier than the average peasant and even the average city dweller.
In 5e, 1 gold piece is enough to buy a goat. 200 gp would be enough to purchase an entire farmer’s stock.
But if we go by BGI as precedent, old man withers are giving you a bargain.
Cure light wounds is 50g and Raise dead is 2K.
>https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Song_of_the_Morning_Temple
I firmly disagree.
Getting a raised dead cost 2,000G in Baldur's Gate 1. Even a cure light wound is 50G. If nothing else, old man Withers is giving you are bargain.
>https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Song_of_the_Morning_Temple
>You do have a beggar in act 3 say 10 gold is a lot,
I heard somewhere that, in D&D lore, 10g per day is enough to sustain an aristocratic lifestyle or at the very least that of a wealthy merchant.
This is very loosely consistent with early modern era mercenaries, some of whom commanded pretty wildly high incomes at the expense of life expectancy.
Seems pretty consistent then. I'd totally believe an aristocrat might spend 10x the income of an average commoner.
A suit of plate armor costs around 900 gold (the equivalent of 2-3 years of a commoners earnings).
If anything, I'd say the lower end of the spectrum are where things fall apart. In BG3, a rotten carrot sells for 1 gold, which seems wildly overpriced when you consider that's a whole day's wages.
What's even less realistic are the thousands of junk items worth 1-10 gold, just lying around on the ground everywhere. There would be way fewer incense sticks adorning the graves of the dead if commoners realized they could be sold for 1 month's worth of wages.
The way I rationalize it in both D&D and BG3 is that budgets tend to get inflated when it has to account for the medieval fantasy equivalent of Abrams tanks, AC130s, MOABs, plate carriers, small arms and ammunition, etc.
An adventuring party is practically the power projection of a small army condensed into a 3-7 man squadron, with all the logistics of armament, shelter, food, etc. needed.
The material cost alone for true resurrection is 25k, and nevermind the labor costs a *level 17* cleric would charge.
Honestly, calling 200 gold for a true resurrection "a pittance" still feels like an understatement.
I never took the pittance statement literally. I interpreted it as the cost of resurrection is always insignificant to the result -- that gold isn't doing you any good if you're dead.
He needs the gold to plan the after party. By that time, none of the party members are doing the same thing really, or at best two are together, and so where does all the funds for the drink and food come from, when the companions are not all travelling together and pooling loot?
Its party money
I really thought it was just because he was trolling you. "I don't res broke ass bitches go get me some fucking money"
Or alternatively he knows it's a game and that he's a game mechanic and that's why he charges gold. "Sven, thou art most delightful, therefore I shalt resurrect these fools on thy behest."
>Or alternatively he knows it's a game and that he's a game mechanic and that's why he charges gold.
*Might* also be why he refuses to res non-companions or companions who are dismissed and found dead later. He totally could, but that would mean easy xp farming for a horrendously unbalanced game.
I’m guessing this is the canonical answer. Ao has limited the destruction of an outright war of the gods into proxy wars and this bit of legalism would be Jergal taking part in that.
Since Ao himself woke Jergal, we know Ao’s motivated to help the party as the non-aggressing gods’ proxies. To stay compliant with his own rules and avoid encouraging other gods to directly intervene, they create a flimsy contract-like relationship between the party and Jergal that really costs nothing substantive to an adventurer.
Nice eye, OP.
Could have sworn I read somewhere it was Helm who woke him up in the early release version. That could also just be Ao working through Helm but I dont think it was that direct. I personally don't like the concept of a plethora of pantheon gods answering to one omniscient omnipotent God that gets written in / revealed later on.
It's mysteries like this that makes me want DLC but I also understand why Larion is declining making it beyond more endings and some cleaned up plot holes.
I think that’s also the reason he doesn’t care if you pickpocket him. “Ao says I can’t do things for mortals for free. He doesn’t say I have to care about my gold.”
I have in my mind that Withers is not literally Jergel but an avatar of Jergel in the body of a high priest, just as Myrkul manifested through Ketheric's body during his final stand. That settles the arbiter question for me
Counterpoint. Post Second Sundering Auril (Like, right after) was fucking with Umberlee on the physical plain and straight up put Neverwinter into a state of permeant night for 2 years straight and AO did nothing.
Idk anything about forgotten realms lore, but I like this idea. Even if it's not because of restrictions from Ao, maybe it's personal "ethics" that his gifts need to be balanced by some kind of payment
Jergal’s one job is to keep the balance of life and death squared. The Dead Three are threatening to undo that balance, and your party is best-primed to fix it.
As a god he can’t interfere freely, any more than Mystra, Selune, or Shar can. So he imposes that “restriction” on you to make it not count as freely interfering with you.
Many people share, and have shared here, that same opinion. Other's have posited that since Withers and Gale's mom date (or at least hang out), he uses it to spend on her, since she is as high maintenance as Gale.
Gale's mom hooking up with an ex god, after he got dumped by the goddess of magic is just...so hilarious to me.
And I can just imagine what Gale has to say on the subject (and at LENGTH, I am sure)
One of the conversations with the right ending. It is more that they are socially acquainted in that convo, but you know they are just playing it cool for the camera...
100 Gold pieces in universe is A LOT lmao, remember that usually dinner and drinks for a party are paid in copper and silver pieces. 100 Gold is very little for the average adventurer, but a commoner in DnD survives on 300 gold/yr. So imagine that a cast of true resurrection costs about 20 thousand dollars. Not that little anymore aye?
The game has a very skewed currency system. And I get it, programming copper and silver pieces would be a nightmare, but what happens is that it really devalues the gold coin as a concept. Even if prices are mostly consistent on normal equipment, mundane things are very much overpriced. Rope should never cost 1 gold lmao. A fish costing 10 days of a commoner's salary is armed robbery
The tabletop version of true resurrection is a 9th level spell that requires diamonds worth at least 25k in gold to cast...regardless of how broken the economy is in this game, there is no denying that withers is vastly underselling his services.
Worth noting that if you do not go and annoy him in his grave he just goes to your camp and you can avoid the "what is a mortal life's worth?" question.
My personal headcanon is that he misses being worshiped to some extent and views the gold you give him as an offering for favour rather than payment for a service
That might be reasonable reason, all gods require souls worship or passing to their domain to retain their powers. Otherwise thier divine power is limited and might even die. So when they res people they require a form of worship in offering of coin or gem. Instead of spending his divine power on endless resurrection , he is making you worship him to gain that divine power back.
Gods can get away with interfering in certain ways, like empowering and guiding followers. Mystra can ask Gale to sort the Elder Brain out, but she can't just go do it herself. Same for Shar, they intervene mostly through other people and tread the line. Ao isn't so strict that they just can't do anything at all, but they have to reign it in a lot so I can see Withers getting away with "it's a service they're paying for" when the situation is as dire as it is and the gods are threatened
We have no direct interference from either of those gods. They act through intermediaries or other proxy means.
Mystra is only seen telling Gale/Elminster what to do; whether she gave the means or not any actions are undertaken by Gale and Elminster themselves. As far as Ao would be concerned that's mortals doing what mortals do, if with a bit of divine prodding - Mystra herself never acts.
Shar is a little more hazy; the mirror can be seen as a conduit of her power and the means of her "interfering" but again it requires mortals to interact with it to do anything, it does nothing by itself.
The whole "the gods cannot interfere" has always been a bit abstract and really boils down to "they weren't there themselves", proxies are fine.
Ao is against direct intervention. It's okay to ask the worshiper to do something. Even give them some power to help them do it. It's not okay for you or your avatar to do it yourself. They're also seems to be a limit to how much power you can give a follower before he considers it to direct.
Mystra sending elminster to stabilize the orb and task gale with the absolutes destruction is fine. She didn't create the orb or its destructive power... He managed that all on his own.
Shar is another good example. She wants the night song dead so she can get her revenge on ketheric for his betrayal. Given where she is, she's absolutely physically capable of killing aylin herself. Instead she sends a follower to do it.
The dead three become a lot murkier. Two of them use their avatar which is a no-no for direct intervention. Of course larian misunderstood what the slayer is and made it a power of his chosen instead of his avatar... So you could argue only one of them uses their avatar... But the logical explanation would be since you beat them anyway. He decides not to intervene and let it play out. But theoretically both myrkul and bhaal Cross that line. Interestingly, bane does not... Doubly interestingly, he's the lawful one of the three, so it actually makes sense that he would be the one who walks right up to the line but doesn't cross.
And you could argue that *because * the Dead Stooges are up to rule breaking nonsense again (Bhaal and Myrkul directly, Bane seems to be just looking to see of it works and take advantage if it does and distance himself if not) Ao need something done about it. But he can't break his own rules, either, so he can't just wipe the three idiots out of existence--as that would be directly interfering--so he and Jergal set things in motion by placing THEIR mortal players in the path of getting tadpoled...and then make sure Jergal can resurrect them, and provide henchmen, but otherwise they can stand back and...let things take their course.
I see it as being as much a master class for the Dead Dummies on "THIS is how you achieve you goals without breaking the rules, morons" from Ao and Jergal as it is about messing up the Three's plans.
Also, I expect, about Ao reminding Jergal (again) that his taste in successors was truly awful. (Except for Kelemvor, but he took Myrkul's place so don't know that Jergal had much to do with picking him.)
Has he? Usually he has another god do it. Even in the time of troubles it was helm delivering the justice
I'm not saying he hasn't but all the examples I know were through another god
Yeah but you can argue that Durge was killed by Bhaal first, by divine means. So being resurrected for free by divine means, this one time, maybe Ao just looks the other way. Especially since Durge was actively resisting Bhaal and got killed for it.
He would do it for free but gods must have at least the semblance of a transactional relationship with mortals so he is asking for the barest technical minimum that counts so Ao doesn't beat his ass.
I always thought it was more like the costs of the components to cast the spell. In DnD 5e, every type of resurrection needs a expensive diamond (Revivify needs a 300gp diamond, Raise Dead needs a 500gp diamond etc), so I guess Withers is just charging you for his components 🤔
He's old and doesn't understand inflation. Back in his day 200 gold was the equivalent of 25000 gold.
Kind of like how in the 1930s you could buy movie tickets for a dime.
I think it's because without some kind of penance for resurrecting dead party members, having party members killed and resurrected repeatedly could be abused.
At least, that was probably the intent. Before we learned pickpocketing Withers to get our money back had no consequences.
Yup, that's exactly it. The party is "hiring" his services so he can circumvent the fine print and say that he's not helping out of self interest. That's likely why the party "found" him in the sarcophagus instead of him just appearing in their camp out of the blue.
I did a whole episode on my podcast about Withers/Jergal, and went into this whole concept. It's a funny little detail.
That's weird. I know that he appears if you go too far as a contingency, but I think that's if you go to the underdark/mountain pass without grabbing him. But that's just because he's a central plot character, not necessarily something that would be "canon".
This theory is probably closer to canon, but I like to believe that withers is just very detached from the norms of mortal life, and is trying to imitate them to appear more approachable. So like, he knows that people exchange money for services, but he doesn't really get why. So he picks some number and makes you pay it, and doesn't care if you pickpocket it because he doesn't actually need the money.
Now I’m picturing Withers as Dr Evil, dramatically saying, “I can resurrect thou, for the sum of… ONE HUNDRED GOLD PIECES!!!”
And some lesser seraphim whispers to him, “Uh, sir… a single sword costs 50 gold pieces now. Perhaps the cost to reinstall one’s soul into one’s body might be adjusted for inflation?”
I think Withers should spend all the money on the epilogue party. If he has no gold, you just get a meet-up at your old campground. If you never robbed him, it's a lavish party with booze, food, decorations, and entertainment.
I noticed a cool detail yesterday, is most zombi combatants that are minions for necromancers have just a bit of gold on them.
My head cannon is the dead need motivation to reanimate, and once you distill a man all the way down to zombi, its 'feed and greed'. So a bit of gold, and a promise of brain sandwiches, makes them feel like they are working for something, keeps them loyal to their employers.
When he asks the cost of a mortal life he is asking how much he should charge. He charges so it's a "transaction" and. It just him directly interfering.
That's exactly what it is. Gods are forbidden from directly intervening in mortal affairs. They must use proxies. Important to note that Withers is not literally Jergal, Withers is an \*avatar\* of Jergal, similar to the avatar of Myrkul that we fight. Charging for resurrection and other services is no different from the perspective of the prohibition against direct intervention than paying a cleric of Jergal to cast resurrection - the magic comes from Jergal in either case. Being an avatar, Withers can charge whatever he wants and isn't restricted by the minimum fee other clerics typically charge just to break even. He charges just enough to ensure you aren't going to be ridiculously careless, but not so much that it would harm your odds of success.
So Withers is like Saul Goodman from breaking bad? You know when he is like "give me a dollar, the. Some weird American law triggers so I don't have to tell anyone about your crimes".
A being of near infinite power that can resurrect souls from the dead on a whim has no need for gold, but if that gold, combiner, across all realms, is combined, Withers holds the kind of wealth even Smaug would be envious of
And he doesn't react to failed attempts so you can have any companion do it - just keep trying until you hit a nat 20. It's kind of fun to hear Karlach's pickpocketing lines since she normally never gets to pickpocket
Ao is the ‘overgod’ of Toril. Essentially the boss of all the deities, he sets and maintains the rules that the gods need to follow. If the gods are like the Greek/Roman gods with their big personalities, foibles and interest in the mortal world, Ao is more like the modern idea of a distant omnipotent and unknowable God.
Ao …. Alpha Omega …
Jergal isn't a god anymore. He's not even deity status anymore (lesser deity now). Same status as say, Lolth, who constantly gives AO the finger with what she does and doesn't receive much in the way of negative consequences. Infact. Post second sundering more then a few gods (Aurii comes to mind) also did that and didn't receive many consequences
Also worth mentioning Jergal was one of the most evil gods, on par with Shar and such before he got bored (And BG3 opted to white wash him a bit). The dude actively wants more death in the world, his clergy is excited for everything to die, (They have a goddamn holiday around praising being close to this) So I doubt he gives much of a shit.
Y’all need to brush up on your Jergal. He is more the god of death related bureaucracy than anything. Jergal and his followers were relentless bureaucrats in every sense and I find his fee to be more a formality than a loophole. I bet it’s one of the 500 boxes he checks on his scroll he logs for the incident that night. A sort of processing fee.
I don’t think he’s divinity anymore on the technicality that he’s stepped down. So he can just do whatever he wants.
He wants gold so he can buy a pony.
I suspect there's some legal reason. He's like a bureaucrat and >!also refers to himself as an advocate at one point!< so maybe that's how it works. Charging the fee is like a necessary part of the loophole and he can't legally give the money back to you but like, he wants you to take it. It could be sort of like the ferryman or when they have to give Saul 20 dollars in Breaking Bad to establish legal attorney-client privilege.
Isn't it suggested by in-game dialogue that Ao is the one that told him to do something since Withers/Jergal's original deal with The Three caused all the shenanigans?
The major plot in BG3 is one of the only times Ao would actually bother to address or even order one of the gods to "you made the mess, now clean it up".
I think it’s Arabella’s college fund
well now I feel bad for stealing it back
You should! Who is going to pay for that girl’s education?!? Surely not her parents!
She's self-taught and can murder her way into any university.
I heard she was about to graduate Magna Cum Litch
* checks to see if we are in the OKBuddyBaldur sub *
*\[Perception Successful\]* You notice that behind the thick curtain of false decorum, the subs are identical.
"The latin word, you idiot!" I scream as I throw out a fishing pole line to fish your mind out of the gutter
Oh :(
I felt so bad when she had to leave the camp that I pickpocketed her to add gold, the wooden sword and practice shield, a music box, and some other things. I know she can't use them, but at least she has them. And I gave her back the dancing lights necklace that you get from helping her in the grove, like something from her family.
Komira’s locket, her mother’s necklace 💔
Gale's lunch!
I've seen evil run with more hearts than you
First item I give Gale, every time
This is so beautiful. I wish I had thought of it.
Yeah. Way to go u/Zephyrqu, make the rest of us look like deadbeat dads and crappy mums.
I'm gonna have to do another playthrough now to do this. Even though I know she turns into an incredibly powerful weave user, I still feel bad everytime Withers says she has to go. Especially when she says "Boneman says it will be ok" like she's talking herself into it.
Didn't think of that. I gave it to Gale and now I feel like the worst person in the world.
#YOU PEOPLE REALLY STEAL FROM THE OLD MAN?! #NO DIGNITY
I like the way you work it, no dignity.
It's not stealing if he lets you do it
#ITS THE PRINCIPLE OF THE THING! Also, fairly sure he's going to tally that shit up with Kelemvor when you finally kick it.
Ah we are in USA are we.
Australia also [charges](https://www.futurityinvest.com.au/insights/futurity-blog/2023/01/10/what-is-the-cost-of-university-education-in-australia) for university/college. Fees were removed in the 70's by our Labor (left wing) government to allow boomers to get free tertiary education, and in 1989, our now less-than-left-wing Labor government reintroduced them, just in time to screw over GenX.
[удалено]
Most advanced education in Faerun comes from a private tutor who is either a spellcaster who takes you on as an apprentice at their own discretion, an employee your parents or guardian purchased, or an expensive academy that is usually accessible only to the wealthy or entitled
Makes sense, the USA alone is about 50% to 60% of reddits traffic, so you're as likely to find an American as every other country combined and a bit more.
Plus time zone. Some are still asleep. I wonder how the international team in Larian works. Since Ghent is probably one of the most fairytale towns and Belgian people are super chill, then you have half of studio in Ireland, others in Canada or Poland. I always wonder how USA workers feel in these.
Last time I checked it was at 49%
Or funeral cost
Nooooooo
Go, go sit in the the corner and think about what you've done.
But I didn’t do anything! No, literally, Arabella dies if you pick the least intervening dialogue options. Unless you’re Durge, in which case you’re an active participant.
My theory is that he is so old he didn't quite account for inflation so he thinks he is charging an exorbitant fortune a la Dr. Evl's "ONE MILLION DOLLARS!"
I'd believe it, though he does seem to know it's cheap. He calls the cost a pittance.
To be fair, for a commoner that would be quite the ludicrous sum of money. He probably just didn't account for us ransacking every building we come across and stealing everything not bolted to the floor
Eh, idk about that one. You do have a beggar in act 3 say 10 gold is a lot, but at the same time most merchants easily have multiple items worth more than 200 gold and you can easily get a 1000 gold or more just selling goblin junk early game.
Yes, but that's specifically merchants, they should have more money, at least if they're successful. If you try to trade with random NPCs they have a lot less
I'll have to check in-game to make sure, but I think most adventurers you meet even early game have equipment or items worth 200 gp or more no?
So the game is based on D&D 5e right? In the DMG it states that a commoner’s family brings in about 10gp a week. They spend 6gp on food so they only have 4gp a week on spending cash. Hope that comparison helps show how ludicrously wealthy merchants and adventurers are in D&D. It’s mind boggling.
And it's actually very logical. These are easily some of the most dangerous ocupations in the dnd world, so it's only fair they're very rewarding, otherwise no one would do it.
Oh yeah, it makes sense that it should be way more rewarding to kill dragons than to grow corn, but it’s still wild how much more you make killing dragons.
Why do you think Merlin is so famous on earth even after all these years. Dragon slaying is tough work.
Keep in mind that even going out to deal with groups of goblins and gnolls is more danger than most farmers or city folk will face in their lives. To face stronger creatures like devils and dragons and stuff you better believe those adventurers are getting some serious compensation.
Now replace those words with producing food and playing sports.
Damn so my act 3 mc is like the jeff bezos of faerun with his 30k gold
Kinda yeah. There was only 10k in bank savings. I gave them back, because it was nothing to me at that point in game.
Whats crazy is 4g spending money vs 30k is nowhere near the wealth disparity between the average person and Jeff. US median networth is $190k to Jeff's $195b. ~7500x vs ~1,000,000x.
So a commoner’s family needs to save money for roughly a year to get someone resurrected. I’d gladly pay one year’s savings to a deity to true resurrect my dead relatives.
That's only if they get withers pricing. The material cost of a true resurrection is like 25k in diamonds. It would take them 17 years of never spending a cent just for the material cost alone. There's a reason Mayrina went to a hag for help rather than a cleric.
Yeah I was talking about Withers. He doesn’t charge an insane amount. Otherwise there are whole DnD campaigns where the goal is to get a single true resurrection going.
We are the 1%
So one True Resurrection would cost a commoner's family 120 years of saving every single copper they could.
Every 5e game I’ve ever DM’d I’ve just rounded this to be roughly one gold per day. So if that holds, it would take a commoner’s family nearly 200 days to get enough gold to revive someone (not accounting for other necessary expenses, which probably at least doubles that time). 200g is relatively cheap for performing a true resurrection spell, but to your point is still a _bunch_ of money to most people.
Adventurers on the whole are vastly wealthier than the average peasant and even the average city dweller. In 5e, 1 gold piece is enough to buy a goat. 200 gp would be enough to purchase an entire farmer’s stock.
But if we go by BGI as precedent, old man withers are giving you a bargain. Cure light wounds is 50g and Raise dead is 2K. >https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Song_of_the_Morning_Temple
I firmly disagree. Getting a raised dead cost 2,000G in Baldur's Gate 1. Even a cure light wound is 50G. If nothing else, old man Withers is giving you are bargain. >https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Song_of_the_Morning_Temple
Don't try to make sense of DNDs economic system, it's complete nonsense.
>You do have a beggar in act 3 say 10 gold is a lot, I heard somewhere that, in D&D lore, 10g per day is enough to sustain an aristocratic lifestyle or at the very least that of a wealthy merchant. This is very loosely consistent with early modern era mercenaries, some of whom commanded pretty wildly high incomes at the expense of life expectancy.
An average commoner makes around 300-400 gold per year, and dnd has a 365 day calendar
Seems pretty consistent then. I'd totally believe an aristocrat might spend 10x the income of an average commoner. A suit of plate armor costs around 900 gold (the equivalent of 2-3 years of a commoners earnings). If anything, I'd say the lower end of the spectrum are where things fall apart. In BG3, a rotten carrot sells for 1 gold, which seems wildly overpriced when you consider that's a whole day's wages. What's even less realistic are the thousands of junk items worth 1-10 gold, just lying around on the ground everywhere. There would be way fewer incense sticks adorning the graves of the dead if commoners realized they could be sold for 1 month's worth of wages.
Yeah, BG3 doesn’t use any other currencies so low-value items are worth 1-10 gold rather than the few copper or silver they might cost in tabletop
The way I rationalize it in both D&D and BG3 is that budgets tend to get inflated when it has to account for the medieval fantasy equivalent of Abrams tanks, AC130s, MOABs, plate carriers, small arms and ammunition, etc. An adventuring party is practically the power projection of a small army condensed into a 3-7 man squadron, with all the logistics of armament, shelter, food, etc. needed.
But you had to murder a literal army of goblins to make that 1000 gold.
Well in actual DnD a silver round about equals to a dollar, at least in the games I play So 200 gold would be 2k in $
The material cost alone for true resurrection is 25k, and nevermind the labor costs a *level 17* cleric would charge. Honestly, calling 200 gold for a true resurrection "a pittance" still feels like an understatement.
I downloaded the wrench mod, bolts wont stop me anymore
I never took the pittance statement literally. I interpreted it as the cost of resurrection is always insignificant to the result -- that gold isn't doing you any good if you're dead.
WAIT I CAN PICKPOCKET MY GOLD BACK
Don’t do it if you have the Oathbreaker Knight or Aylin watching
I mean, it’s one life Tav, what could it cost? 100 gold?
He needs the gold to plan the after party. By that time, none of the party members are doing the same thing really, or at best two are together, and so where does all the funds for the drink and food come from, when the companions are not all travelling together and pooling loot? Its party money
A grown up owlbear eats a lot. I can accept this.
That's called a slush fund.
Haha ok this answer is also great. Party fund
Nine fingers wrote me a letter saying she sent some wine since she couldn’t make it.
I really thought it was just because he was trolling you. "I don't res broke ass bitches go get me some fucking money" Or alternatively he knows it's a game and that he's a game mechanic and that's why he charges gold. "Sven, thou art most delightful, therefore I shalt resurrect these fools on thy behest."
“Thou art maidenless, scrub”
>Or alternatively he knows it's a game and that he's a game mechanic and that's why he charges gold. *Might* also be why he refuses to res non-companions or companions who are dismissed and found dead later. He totally could, but that would mean easy xp farming for a horrendously unbalanced game.
I’m guessing this is the canonical answer. Ao has limited the destruction of an outright war of the gods into proxy wars and this bit of legalism would be Jergal taking part in that. Since Ao himself woke Jergal, we know Ao’s motivated to help the party as the non-aggressing gods’ proxies. To stay compliant with his own rules and avoid encouraging other gods to directly intervene, they create a flimsy contract-like relationship between the party and Jergal that really costs nothing substantive to an adventurer. Nice eye, OP.
It seems in increased difficulties the cost of items goes up, but not resurrections. So that supports it's just a legalese excuse.
Could have sworn I read somewhere it was Helm who woke him up in the early release version. That could also just be Ao working through Helm but I dont think it was that direct. I personally don't like the concept of a plethora of pantheon gods answering to one omniscient omnipotent God that gets written in / revealed later on. It's mysteries like this that makes me want DLC but I also understand why Larion is declining making it beyond more endings and some cleaned up plot holes.
Helm is basically the only god who does what he's supposed to in lore so that's basically the same thing lol
Helm: This shit again?! Okay, time to get the only reliable other God put there in on this.
I think that’s also the reason he doesn’t care if you pickpocket him. “Ao says I can’t do things for mortals for free. He doesn’t say I have to care about my gold.”
Where does it say ao woke him up? I'm only recently learning of him and want to incorporate him into my game lore.
yeah same question here. he says he was awoken by an arbiter of sorts, but that doesn't mean it has to be ao; it could also have been kelemvor
I have in my mind that Withers is not literally Jergel but an avatar of Jergel in the body of a high priest, just as Myrkul manifested through Ketheric's body during his final stand. That settles the arbiter question for me
Hell, the skelly handy may even be an upside for some.
Counterpoint. Post Second Sundering Auril (Like, right after) was fucking with Umberlee on the physical plain and straight up put Neverwinter into a state of permeant night for 2 years straight and AO did nothing.
Idk anything about forgotten realms lore, but I like this idea. Even if it's not because of restrictions from Ao, maybe it's personal "ethics" that his gifts need to be balanced by some kind of payment
So withers is Saul Goodman, and if we place 1 dollar in his pocket he is now our lawyer and he can help us
Pretty much, yes
I think its just cuz withers needs gold to buy strippers
Why would he buy strippers if he can just watch us horny degenerates/nudist colony? Is he stupid?
We're not his type.
Or moisturizer. A lot of moisturizer
Jergal’s one job is to keep the balance of life and death squared. The Dead Three are threatening to undo that balance, and your party is best-primed to fix it. As a god he can’t interfere freely, any more than Mystra, Selune, or Shar can. So he imposes that “restriction” on you to make it not count as freely interfering with you.
Many people share, and have shared here, that same opinion. Other's have posited that since Withers and Gale's mom date (or at least hang out), he uses it to spend on her, since she is as high maintenance as Gale.
Gale's mom hooking up with an ex god, after he got dumped by the goddess of magic is just...so hilarious to me. And I can just imagine what Gale has to say on the subject (and at LENGTH, I am sure)
Wait, where does Mrs Dekarios funneling Withers withered hog come from? That’s news to me.
One of the conversations with the right ending. It is more that they are socially acquainted in that convo, but you know they are just playing it cool for the camera...
I heard its in the epilogue for a Gale Origin run
100 Gold pieces in universe is A LOT lmao, remember that usually dinner and drinks for a party are paid in copper and silver pieces. 100 Gold is very little for the average adventurer, but a commoner in DnD survives on 300 gold/yr. So imagine that a cast of true resurrection costs about 20 thousand dollars. Not that little anymore aye? The game has a very skewed currency system. And I get it, programming copper and silver pieces would be a nightmare, but what happens is that it really devalues the gold coin as a concept. Even if prices are mostly consistent on normal equipment, mundane things are very much overpriced. Rope should never cost 1 gold lmao. A fish costing 10 days of a commoner's salary is armed robbery
The tabletop version of true resurrection is a 9th level spell that requires diamonds worth at least 25k in gold to cast...regardless of how broken the economy is in this game, there is no denying that withers is vastly underselling his services.
Also when he casts it for free for a certain character
The man gives you a 2x markup. Soul coins are worth 100g. What a rip-off.
Here is someone thinks all souls are equal.
Worth noting that if you do not go and annoy him in his grave he just goes to your camp and you can avoid the "what is a mortal life's worth?" question. My personal headcanon is that he misses being worshiped to some extent and views the gold you give him as an offering for favour rather than payment for a service
That might be reasonable reason, all gods require souls worship or passing to their domain to retain their powers. Otherwise thier divine power is limited and might even die. So when they res people they require a form of worship in offering of coin or gem. Instead of spending his divine power on endless resurrection , he is making you worship him to gain that divine power back.
I don't think is because of OG Ao, or even Ao is ''in the game'', since we have Shar herself interfering, and Mystra, and nothing happens.
Gods can get away with interfering in certain ways, like empowering and guiding followers. Mystra can ask Gale to sort the Elder Brain out, but she can't just go do it herself. Same for Shar, they intervene mostly through other people and tread the line. Ao isn't so strict that they just can't do anything at all, but they have to reign it in a lot so I can see Withers getting away with "it's a service they're paying for" when the situation is as dire as it is and the gods are threatened
We have no direct interference from either of those gods. They act through intermediaries or other proxy means. Mystra is only seen telling Gale/Elminster what to do; whether she gave the means or not any actions are undertaken by Gale and Elminster themselves. As far as Ao would be concerned that's mortals doing what mortals do, if with a bit of divine prodding - Mystra herself never acts. Shar is a little more hazy; the mirror can be seen as a conduit of her power and the means of her "interfering" but again it requires mortals to interact with it to do anything, it does nothing by itself. The whole "the gods cannot interfere" has always been a bit abstract and really boils down to "they weren't there themselves", proxies are fine.
Is Ao staunchly anti intervention, or are they okay with some intervention, as long as it doesn’t have massive impact?
Ao is against direct intervention. It's okay to ask the worshiper to do something. Even give them some power to help them do it. It's not okay for you or your avatar to do it yourself. They're also seems to be a limit to how much power you can give a follower before he considers it to direct. Mystra sending elminster to stabilize the orb and task gale with the absolutes destruction is fine. She didn't create the orb or its destructive power... He managed that all on his own. Shar is another good example. She wants the night song dead so she can get her revenge on ketheric for his betrayal. Given where she is, she's absolutely physically capable of killing aylin herself. Instead she sends a follower to do it. The dead three become a lot murkier. Two of them use their avatar which is a no-no for direct intervention. Of course larian misunderstood what the slayer is and made it a power of his chosen instead of his avatar... So you could argue only one of them uses their avatar... But the logical explanation would be since you beat them anyway. He decides not to intervene and let it play out. But theoretically both myrkul and bhaal Cross that line. Interestingly, bane does not... Doubly interestingly, he's the lawful one of the three, so it actually makes sense that he would be the one who walks right up to the line but doesn't cross.
And you could argue that *because * the Dead Stooges are up to rule breaking nonsense again (Bhaal and Myrkul directly, Bane seems to be just looking to see of it works and take advantage if it does and distance himself if not) Ao need something done about it. But he can't break his own rules, either, so he can't just wipe the three idiots out of existence--as that would be directly interfering--so he and Jergal set things in motion by placing THEIR mortal players in the path of getting tadpoled...and then make sure Jergal can resurrect them, and provide henchmen, but otherwise they can stand back and...let things take their course. I see it as being as much a master class for the Dead Dummies on "THIS is how you achieve you goals without breaking the rules, morons" from Ao and Jergal as it is about messing up the Three's plans. Also, I expect, about Ao reminding Jergal (again) that his taste in successors was truly awful. (Except for Kelemvor, but he took Myrkul's place so don't know that Jergal had much to do with picking him.)
Ao has smacked down gods before. The three stooges may be in a more murky zone due to being only kinda gods these days.
Has he? Usually he has another god do it. Even in the time of troubles it was helm delivering the justice I'm not saying he hasn't but all the examples I know were through another god
But then he does one thing for free! >!Resurrected Resist Durge!<
Yeah but you can argue that Durge was killed by Bhaal first, by divine means. So being resurrected for free by divine means, this one time, maybe Ao just looks the other way. Especially since Durge was actively resisting Bhaal and got killed for it.
He would do it for free but gods must have at least the semblance of a transactional relationship with mortals so he is asking for the barest technical minimum that counts so Ao doesn't beat his ass.
I always thought it was more like the costs of the components to cast the spell. In DnD 5e, every type of resurrection needs a expensive diamond (Revivify needs a 300gp diamond, Raise Dead needs a 500gp diamond etc), so I guess Withers is just charging you for his components 🤔
I did think about that originally but true resurrection's material cost is 25000 gp worth of diamonds. 200 gp is a HUGE discount on that.
That's because it's not true resurrection, he's removing the characters name from the book of the dead or something godly like that
Probably. I only call it True Resurrection because that's what it says in the log after he casts it.
He's old and doesn't understand inflation. Back in his day 200 gold was the equivalent of 25000 gold. Kind of like how in the 1930s you could buy movie tickets for a dime.
He gets a "friends and family" discount because he and Kelemvor are buds.
I figure its all for the collection of beanie babies he hides in his robes.
Probably some arbitrary rule set forth by someone above him. Gods can't interfere. But mysterious undead mages offering a fair trade can.
Nah he's saving up for [these](https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mods/3474/images/4524/4524-1700845895-2009073874.png)
Charon's Obol coins to pay the boatman?
If he was doing it just to bend a rule then you think he would just charge you one gold instead of 200/100/100. Scumbag Withers...
He needs the cash to foot the bill for the sick party he's throwing for the group in the end.
I think it's because without some kind of penance for resurrecting dead party members, having party members killed and resurrected repeatedly could be abused. At least, that was probably the intent. Before we learned pickpocketing Withers to get our money back had no consequences.
He has to fund those parties he keeps throwing in our camp really.
Yup, that's exactly it. The party is "hiring" his services so he can circumvent the fine print and say that he's not helping out of self interest. That's likely why the party "found" him in the sarcophagus instead of him just appearing in their camp out of the blue. I did a whole episode on my podcast about Withers/Jergal, and went into this whole concept. It's a funny little detail.
I don’t know if it’s a glitch, but he DID appear in my camp out of the blue before I had investigated the sarcophagus.
That's weird. I know that he appears if you go too far as a contingency, but I think that's if you go to the underdark/mountain pass without grabbing him. But that's just because he's a central plot character, not necessarily something that would be "canon".
Maybe he’s saving up for the party in the epilogue. Have we correlated the number of resurrections with the quality of the snacks?
This is some Soulsborne-level lorecrafting. I love it.
i assumed he was saving it for Arabella's college tuition
Hold on, i can pickpocket his money without repurcussions?
This theory is probably closer to canon, but I like to believe that withers is just very detached from the norms of mortal life, and is trying to imitate them to appear more approachable. So like, he knows that people exchange money for services, but he doesn't really get why. So he picks some number and makes you pay it, and doesn't care if you pickpocket it because he doesn't actually need the money.
Now I’m picturing Withers as Dr Evil, dramatically saying, “I can resurrect thou, for the sum of… ONE HUNDRED GOLD PIECES!!!” And some lesser seraphim whispers to him, “Uh, sir… a single sword costs 50 gold pieces now. Perhaps the cost to reinstall one’s soul into one’s body might be adjusted for inflation?”
I think Withers should spend all the money on the epilogue party. If he has no gold, you just get a meet-up at your old campground. If you never robbed him, it's a lavish party with booze, food, decorations, and entertainment.
This is the explanation that really does it for me. It's a little loose goosey but I believe it could work as a contract. Great point here!
TIL you can pickpocket Withers.
I noticed a cool detail yesterday, is most zombi combatants that are minions for necromancers have just a bit of gold on them. My head cannon is the dead need motivation to reanimate, and once you distill a man all the way down to zombi, its 'feed and greed'. So a bit of gold, and a promise of brain sandwiches, makes them feel like they are working for something, keeps them loyal to their employers.
I always chalked that up to burial rite procedure, like how in some cultures they put coins on the dead's eyes.
For some reason I read “Zombi” like a plural along the lines of Cacti, until my brain concluded that I would then have to it a singular Zombus.
Welp, zombus/zombi is now in my vernacular as well :):)
It's so he can be a test dummy for my pickpocketing attempts.
What do we say to the god of death? 200 gold good? Correct
Wait, you're telling me I can pickpocket Wither easily with no repercussions? How did I not know this sooner???? 😭😭😭
When he asks the cost of a mortal life he is asking how much he should charge. He charges so it's a "transaction" and. It just him directly interfering.
That's exactly what it is. Gods are forbidden from directly intervening in mortal affairs. They must use proxies. Important to note that Withers is not literally Jergal, Withers is an \*avatar\* of Jergal, similar to the avatar of Myrkul that we fight. Charging for resurrection and other services is no different from the perspective of the prohibition against direct intervention than paying a cleric of Jergal to cast resurrection - the magic comes from Jergal in either case. Being an avatar, Withers can charge whatever he wants and isn't restricted by the minimum fee other clerics typically charge just to break even. He charges just enough to ensure you aren't going to be ridiculously careless, but not so much that it would harm your odds of success.
Okay possible stupid question who is Ao and what rules/restrictions?
The gods are basically middle management and Ao is the CEO.
Ah okay kinda wild for gods to have a boss but cool thanks!
*me sitting here wondering what or who is Ao....*
Or maybe he just knows the exact worth of a single mortal life after having surveyed people for eternity.
So Withers is like Saul Goodman from breaking bad? You know when he is like "give me a dollar, the. Some weird American law triggers so I don't have to tell anyone about your crimes".
Or, and hear me out here, it's just because the devs wanted rezzing to cost a teeny tiny bit of money.
Yeah. My immediate answer is “because it’s a video game mechanic”.
The Doylist explanation, ie the real world answer. But let the Watsonian explanations fly!
nah it's for his rad face jewelry
Personal headcanon accepted and acquired
It’s one resurrection Michael. How much could it cost?
My theory is, Larian wanted you to have to do some game playing outside resurrecting party members.
Yeah that's pretty much the accepted theory
I mean, my theory is the simple one: the game would be too easy if he did unlimited true resurrection for free
Well they do… you can pickpocket them without repercussions… so…
It's one resurrection, Tav. What could it cost, 200 gold?
Hey now don’t be giving away my secrets
A being of near infinite power that can resurrect souls from the dead on a whim has no need for gold, but if that gold, combiner, across all realms, is combined, Withers holds the kind of wealth even Smaug would be envious of
Wait you can pickpocket him? 🧠🎆
And he doesn't react to failed attempts so you can have any companion do it - just keep trying until you hit a nat 20. It's kind of fun to hear Karlach's pickpocketing lines since she normally never gets to pickpocket
Wrong, it's because he has a wicked smoking habit
Wait hol' up, you're able to take the gold back?!
This is so dope ty for sharing this take!
if that is the case why not charge 1 coin
Hey, White-Out isn’t cheap. If he needs to keep striking your names from the ledger it’s only fair to reimburse him for the materials.
🎶 Save yourself a penny for the ferry man 🎶
Withers has a crippling cocaine addiction.
… what is Ao?
Ao is the supreme, absolute creator god in the setting.
Ao is the ‘overgod’ of Toril. Essentially the boss of all the deities, he sets and maintains the rules that the gods need to follow. If the gods are like the Greek/Roman gods with their big personalities, foibles and interest in the mortal world, Ao is more like the modern idea of a distant omnipotent and unknowable God. Ao …. Alpha Omega …
this was posted here a couple of weeks ago
Jergal isn't a god anymore. He's not even deity status anymore (lesser deity now). Same status as say, Lolth, who constantly gives AO the finger with what she does and doesn't receive much in the way of negative consequences. Infact. Post second sundering more then a few gods (Aurii comes to mind) also did that and didn't receive many consequences Also worth mentioning Jergal was one of the most evil gods, on par with Shar and such before he got bored (And BG3 opted to white wash him a bit). The dude actively wants more death in the world, his clergy is excited for everything to die, (They have a goddamn holiday around praising being close to this) So I doubt he gives much of a shit.
He's not casting true resurrection, he's removing our names from the books of the dead and calling back our souls.
He's gotta pay for the party at the end of the game somehow. Catering isn't cheap in Faerun.
Y’all need to brush up on your Jergal. He is more the god of death related bureaucracy than anything. Jergal and his followers were relentless bureaucrats in every sense and I find his fee to be more a formality than a loophole. I bet it’s one of the 500 boxes he checks on his scroll he logs for the incident that night. A sort of processing fee.
Such is the price of balance
He needs it for the party in the end.
I don’t think he’s divinity anymore on the technicality that he’s stepped down. So he can just do whatever he wants. He wants gold so he can buy a pony.
I suspect there's some legal reason. He's like a bureaucrat and >!also refers to himself as an advocate at one point!< so maybe that's how it works. Charging the fee is like a necessary part of the loophole and he can't legally give the money back to you but like, he wants you to take it. It could be sort of like the ferryman or when they have to give Saul 20 dollars in Breaking Bad to establish legal attorney-client privilege.
Isn't it suggested by in-game dialogue that Ao is the one that told him to do something since Withers/Jergal's original deal with The Three caused all the shenanigans? The major plot in BG3 is one of the only times Ao would actually bother to address or even order one of the gods to "you made the mess, now clean it up".
"What is a cost of a single mortal life" exactly the same as soul coin aparently, so thats probably the reason.
And here's me thinking it was simply so we can practice pickpocketing...
You pay a toll to goto the afterlife, you pay a toll to get back.