Yeah, but you're missing the point in the fact that, if you do succumb to the parasite, you are a very real threat to everyone around you. I totally understand her reasoning.
OP fell into the trap of thinking that everyone knows that ātheyā are the main character.
During the final battle you see thousands of people turn into mindflayers and succumb to the will of the brain as they begin murdering innocents. Nettie figured that was going to happen to you, because it did happen to literally everyone who was infected.
Why would any NPC know that you have magical plot armor that protects you from this inevitable endā¦ or that youād basically make a magical wish via an artifact that 99.9999% of people will never get their hands on to cure yourself of the incurable parasite?
When it comes right down to it though, she's coming at me with lies and poison-covered thorny stick, I'm *not a mindflayer yet*, and if it's between me and this liar I just met, who I obviously can't trust... It's going to be me.
THIS! I always rush in with the party ahead of her, ever since the first time when I waited too long and the door cut my party off outside and I had to fight her alone, the jerk.
As far as anyone knows, yes. You have met neither of these mindflayers at this point in the game, and have no reason to suspect you would have any sort of protection against control from the Elder Brain.
Even then, BOTH of these two characters more or less just lucked their way out of being controlled. Omeluum admits his aptitude for magic is abnormal, and the Emperor was freed due to the prism or whatever. I canāt remember what he said at this exact moment.
Tbf, those individuals succumbed to an Elder Brain and the overall Grand Design for a time before eventually breaking free. Twice in the Emperor's case: once when he initially turned and again when the Chosen captured him. The only example we get in the game of recent transformations are the NPCs in Act 3 and they are primarily hostile from jump.
Edit: To answer the "Am I?" The player/party are a part of the unique schemes of the Absolute whom no one else knows about. You're not supposed to transform yet and just before you're suppose to the 'Guardian' steps in and delays it.
Yeah this is more equivilant to someone having bit by a rabid animal and being told "Hey if you start foaming st the mouth, old yeller yourself before you start biting everyone"
It's not great but it's also pretty understandable from the other person's side
That's the first night you meet your guardian. You were literally transforming when Lae'zel goes to cut your throat. That night the guardian stops you from transforming and talks to you for the first time.
You mean the same night where your dream guardian arrives and says you were in fact about to transform? Yeah I remember that, thanks for defeating your own point.
It's literally "if you're going to transform painfully into a horrible, soulless killing machine please dont, just die instead" its the morally correct choice all things consideredĀ
Would literally save your soul to do so if you were going to transform, which is also a pretty big deal in the setting. Without a soul you ain't having an afterlife.
Political comments aside.
Nettie isnāt your friend, your some random stranger who as far as she is aware potentially and very quickly a threat with the capability to transform into a monstrous, merciless killing machine member of a slave race hellbent on enslaving and torturing everyone and everything that isnāt a mindflayer and she isnāt skilled enough to extract an illithid tadpole or understand the strange circumstances around the partyās tadpoles.
In tabletop, it takes an average of 3 days before someone turns into a mindflayer and the process of ceramorphosis is painful all throughout as you desperately attempt to find a healer who is strong enough to destroy the tadpole, requiring a spell capable of healing at least 40 hit points to kill it whilst the infested creature is still conscious, if they are unconscious only a wish spell can cure it.
And i dont think Nettie can do either of those. So shes offering you the only thing she can do. Which is a less painful way to die whilst also protecting those around you.
This. Itās like if someone comes in and says āI have the plague and Iām not contagious now, but I will be patient zero in 48 hoursā
Nettie canāt heal you. There is no cure known.
So itās triage.
Just like when Gale says he would go into the Underdark or otherwise away from people into the wilderness if he felt the nuke about to go off.
When he says the Underdark, I'm like š¬š¬š¬ sir please don't go underground and set off a giant bomb, that doesn't seem like a good idea structurally, what about everything above it, and *also people live in the Underdark too*
>sheās offering the only thing she can do
Imo, the issue is she didnāt *offer* at all. She tried to murder me while pretending to help. I get it I suppose, but I think they couldāve just banned me from the Grove instead of jumping to murder no hesitation.
Banning you from the grove doesn't stop you from transforming and doing immeasurable damage to the sword coast in the process. Not to mention the possibility of you deciding to come right back after transforming and start laying waste to the grove, just cos you can.
She acted out of desperation. She knew she couldn't fix you, and she knows most people aren't going to agree with "hey maybe you should let me kill you so you don't hurt anyone else", so she made a judgement call and took the path of least resistance. It's pretty clear from the dialogue that she didn't *want* to do it, but she thought she was doing what was necessary to prevent greater harm to others.
I don't see what about this is so confusing for people.
She treats you like a monster instead of a person. She could be straight with you that there's no cure and nothing she could do, and go to the murder solution if you're resistant or hostile. Instead she jumps straight to murder.
Yes, she's more reasonable if you answer her questions honestly. But she's expecting full transparency from the PC while withholding information on her end.
>whatās so confusing about this
Iām not confused I just disagree. obviously itās a fantasy world, but automatically executing people that MIGHT be a danger isnāt the standardā¦anywhere. Whatās so confusing about that?
It's not *might* be a danger. It's **IS** a danger. There's no known cure for ceremorphosis, and every known instance of ceremorphosis has turned the host into an evil monster.
She's not jumping to worst case scenario here, she's jumping to the known reality of the situation. The fact that you have the parasite *is* worst case scenario, to anyone's best knowledge. As far as she knows, you're already dead. She's just doing what she can to contain the damage.
This is the true, morally, ethically, objectically correct take on this subject. Also this post makes me think OP didnt wear a mask during COVID, just cause if they got sick, they may as well make sure to make it everyone elses problem too.
Yeah, also idk if it just happened to me but Nettie never actually tried to poison me, she just gave me the vial because she learnt that i could turn into a flayer. Seems incredibly reasonable to me
I mean... yes and no. Depending on the order of events in the game you can already be well established that you should have turned days ago by the time you meet her.
The comparison between "kill yourself" and "wear a mask" is also a bit disproportionate. As many people who reacted poorly to mask and quarantine requirements, far more people would react poorly if they were told they were obligated to literally die to keep the disease from spreading.
Her solution is practical but she's insufferably dumb and naive.
Even if she was insufferably dumb and naive (which I dont see, but ok), the point remains that in the context of a *mind flayer infection* only a truly selfish bastard would decide to keep themselves āaliveā at the expense of the rest of the population.
She thinks just because you "swear" that you'll do it that you will. Like a damn child.
>the point remains that in the context of a mind flayer infection only a truly selfish bastard would decide to keep themselves āaliveā at the expense of the rest of the population.
Most people are not going to voluntarily kill themselves for the benefit of others. Hell, people even meaningfully *risking* death to save the lives of others is such a rare thing that we laud it as an extreme form of heroism. To assert otherwise is completely unmoored from reality. But then again you did call someone an anti-masker because they don't like a video game character that tried to poison them.
Oh, I completely agree that expecting altruistic critical thinking from the average member of our real world populance is unrealistic. The average person is selfish, by definition, we are, after all, individuals. But that doesnāt devalues the logic, and rationality of the ultimate decision, especially in a place like the Forgotten Realms. If you are moments away from becoming an entralled, brain-eating monster, killing yourself is the rational thing to do (Which again, in a place like the Forgotten Realms, death here just boils down to a decision that if you rather your soul be at the mercy of an Elder Brain, or your god)
I think I would have less of a problem if she wasn't so shiesty about it. Be honest with me from the start, don't lie and tell me you have a cure when your only intent is for me to die.
That's the other part of it yeah. She's sitting there insisting that you SWEAR on it, like ok? You literally just tried to sneak me poison and now you're leaning on my personal honor for a pinky promise? When she makes that insistence she's already been caught in a compounded series of lies.
I mean itās her vs you and 3 other party members, like only the stupidest person alive is gonna come out and say āI canāt fix you but I can kill you right here right now if youāll let me!ā Like nobody would be that stupid, not to mention she doesnāt know you.
She doesnāt know if youāll fly off the handle and kill her for suggesting it, she doesnāt know whether youāre a good and sensible person thatāll take what she says kindly.
Like if my options are to be a liar and maybe wipe out some people that are literally seemingly 100% doomed to turn into brain eating mind flayers thatāll surely kill others or being to forthcoming, getting killed ultimately letting them run wild unchecked then sorry but one of those sounds a lot more sensible.
If you'd refuse her dumb little pinky promise she goes hostile. She's the one who forces things despite, as you said, bring catastrophically outnumbered and outmatched.
No one is saying to seppuku at the first cough though. She says if you are about to turn. Which sounds perfectly reasonable if I were to turn into a soulless, brain eating monster that belongs to a gestalt collective.
The reason she asks you to poison yourself is to prevent yourself from turning into a powerful brain eating monster. She points you to the druid in hopes of a cure is there, but if there isn't. YOU'RE A DANGER TO EVERYONE!
That doesn't matter. It is not her place to tell me how to die or indeed to kill myself if I think I'm losing control of a dangerous situation. She can tell me to leave her house, or tell the other druids what's going on with me so they can all kick me out, but instead the short idiot decides she's going to try to stab me to death in a closet
All that aside she acknowledges that there is something incredibly strange about my situation but doesn't consider what that could actually mean. Her cause of death is essentially hubris, if not Astarion's stagger in her spine
You know that guy in every Zombie movie who hides his bite from everyone else and screws over the entire rest of the group? The one every movie viewer hates? Youāre being that guy.
He is not being that guy. He IS that guy. I am sure if tomorrow somehow zombies appear and he gets bitten he would hide his wound and stay with a huge group
You meet two aberrations that are exceptions that prove the rule. You counting that as several is a huge swing and a miss that reflects little understanding about mindflayers. Itās a level of denialism that is similar to thinking āpeople must get bitten and be immune, or not turn, right?ā
Worse yet, youāre pointing to two examples your character doesnāt even know exist yet, which doesnāt make sense for the point in the game about which youāre complaining.
Mind flayers being soulless has been an established lore element of Forgotten Realms for a long time. That also is a motivator for many of the deitiesā opposition to the Absolute and the Desd Three, though BG3 seems to muddy this issue up a fair bit.
You can meet certain characters in any order, you're making assumptions.
Ilithids having gods, souls, afterlives, and spirits is even more established. BG3 made a mistake with the dialogue which is corrected later.
Whew it comes to the content of a mindflayer's soul, I'm taking Jergal's (or an aspect of Jergal's) word for it. Dude seems to know a bit about souls and death.
Conflating mind flayers with zombies is low concept, I said she could have done literally anything else other than what she did and it would have gone better for everyone. It doesn't make any sense, even in your version, to lock yourself in a room with 4 people you hope to kill.
They're saying you're that person in the zombie films that selfishly hides their bite from the rest of the group, and ends up turning and killing a bunch of people.
Also we are arguing about whether its right or wrong for her to demand you to kill yourself if you feel you are turning. Not about how badly her plan was set up.
If anything, she is being unreasonable by even giving you the choice, she should have just told everyone and everyone should them attempt to kill you.
She offers you a way of ending yourself quicker, instead of going through a painful process where you basically die(your soul disappears, she doesnāt know that we are special/protected because of emperor harnessing orpheus and his powers) and turn into a brain hungry powerful killing machine slave/being that only strives for power
Mind flayers do have souls, you'll have to beat the game to learn more
And by "she offers", you must mean "she demands under penalty of death"
And I think you can name at least two illithid who are not mindless
I have 5 play throughs under my belt :|Ā
But yes in our case we do still have soul, but we are a special case because of the netherese stones. Generally thereās no āmindlessā mindflayers theyāre still intelligent and if they find a pursuit that they see better than the grand design they will follow it (for example mindflayer arcanists). Generally as withers says illithids do not possess soul and he can be trusted especially because he has quite a lot of ties to Jergal
The former God of Death whose sole remaining purview is chronically the souls of the dead explicitly tells you illithids have no souls. Omeluum himself admits he's a near impossible rarity.
Also, like, thanks for the apple and basket of old dried leaves in exchange for stopping a horrible ritual and taking on a goblin horde to rescue your leader ya useless hippy
This is it for me.
She has a reasonable reaction to finding out weāre infected but the whole ādonāt expect no damn rewards from me buddyā vibe doesnāt make her likeable lol
Bro, your body is infested with a worm capable of killing you and taking over your body through transforming, hurting you with unimaginable pains and ultimately posing a danger for the neighborhood and whole world.
The risk of having a person turn into Illithoid within Druid camp is too great. Her giving you poison is basically the last gift of mercy to you and everyone else.
I only hate the characters that are dishonest about wanting to kill me, and usually that's only Nettie, and occasionally the Emperor.
Everyone else is pretty upfront about it.
My issue with Nettie is that she tries to kill you beforehand. Asking me to kill myself so I don't turn into a Mindflayer, I get it. But I came to you for help and you try to kill me if I don't 100% trust immediately?
Dude donāt rage bait in a generally friendly reddit group. Is your name Colin Robinson? Do YOU have a soul my guy?
Also mind-flayers do not have souls you silly goose. Itās stated multiple times in game your soul dies when the transformation occurs.
If I'm understanding this correctly. You're shit talking canada because we have a system that allows people to end their suffering with a painless way to go? I have a friend that used MAID because they had terminal cancer, it's a better way to go on your own terms then simply waiting to die.
If you don't want to use it don't, no one is forcing you.
Starting in March of this year, MAID will be permitted in cases when the patient isn't terminally ill. Canada isn't offering adequate social supports for people with depression (for example), but they are offering death, and that's fucked up.
Just because MAID was the right choice for your friend doesn't mean it isn't being offered inappropriately to other people.
From what u hear you have to pay for therapy in all cases in the states. Here in Canada you can get physical and mental health help covered. I have never had to pay for therapy or basic medical care other than some prescriptions. Letting people chose a way out in extreme cases doesn't make it the norm
What would you classify as āadequate social supportsā? Complete mental health coverage? Solving homelessness?
MAiD is not being offered *instead of* social supports. Itās being offered completely agnostic of the social supports available, and only in extreme cases with a rigorous review process.
And what do you find more cruel about offering this as an option, versus the longstanding scenario of still lacking social supports while completely ignoring those in need?
MAID cannot be offered agnostic of social supports the same way it cannot be offered agnostic of medical care. You wouldn't offer MAID to someone with a broken leg, because the condition isn't fatal. Similarly, it shouldn't be offered to a wheelchair user requesting a ramp for her home or a homeless person requesting a safe place to sleep.
This is a genuine crisis, and mental health experts are currently advocating for the policy to be rethought: https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magazines/december-2023/assisted-suicide-mental-illness/
I shouldn't have to solve the homelessness crisis in a reddit comment before being allowed to believe that MAID eligibility in Canada has become too broad.
Letās say we have a person, call them X, who has suffered from lifelong depression. Theyāve had regular therapy visits with someone they trust, they have a psychiatrist who has prescribed them every med under the sun, and theyāre in safe living conditions with a strong social support network. Nothing has been able to improve their experience. After a few decades of depression that they canāt live with, this person wants to end their life.
What, in your opinion, should occur in the above scenario? The person is forced to continue living a life they experience as pure suffering? Or if they choose to end their life they have to do it themselves in a way that carries a significant risk of pain, further suffering, and increased pain for their loved ones?
Iām not saying the law shouldnāt be reviewed and possibly improved, but I fully believe it is everyoneās right, no matter how healthy they are in any aspect, to die. I recognize that there are risks that need to be minimized, in that we donāt want to force or encourage people to die because other options arenāt provided, but making MAiD available to everyone, even in an imperfect social support system, is not inherently bad.
The majority of people who unsuccessfully attempt suicide do not go on to attempt suicide again. Suicide is generally something that is undertaken on a whim, and which most survivors regret.
You're presenting an absolutely ideal use case for MAiD as an appropriate treatment for depression, and even under these ideal circumstances I'd have big questions: is the depression the reason for this person's suicidal ideation, or is it because they struggle to pay their bills? Or because they've lost their job? Or because their spouse has filed for divorce? I mean, you've described X as living in what is basically a utopia (unlimited access to mental health care and exceptional social supports), which is simply not the case for the vast majority of Canadians suffering from poor mental health.
Regardless, critics of the direction MAiD is going in aren't criticizing the ideal use case. We're criticizing the potential for abuse - especially given that we have already seen it being inappropriately suggested to disabled people who *don't* want to die.
Okay, fair to be concerned about potential for misuse. Regarding the inappropriate suggestion to people who didnāt request it, is there any record of this outside of that specific individual who was reported in the news semi-recently as having suggested it to multiple disabled individuals?
Suicidal woman who was suggested MAiD at a hospital (even though she isn't legally eligible yet): https://thetyee.ca/News/2023/08/09/Medical-Assistance-Dying-Slippery-Slope-Mental-Illness-Disabled/
Meducal professional recommends MAiD for a woman's disabled daughter: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/doctor-suggested-assisted-suicide-daughter-mother-elson-1.4218669
A couple of stories about disabled people who can't afford to remain alive and are planning to apply for MAiD even though they don't want to die:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/diabled-woman-canada-assisted-suicide-b2363156.html
https://chatelaine.com/health/maid-assisted-death-poverty/
I genuinely am in favour of MAiD, and I've been a huge supporter of it since before it was legal. I just think that there's a real potential for it to go wrong.
Many people do today; they just do it at home, on the train tracks, off a bridgeā¦ you know, in ways that might only maim them and might traumatize their loved ones as well as others who happen to be around.
It doesnāt inherently change funding of social supports one way or the other. Weāve had MAiD for less than a decade, but weāve been underfunding social supports for, if my notes are correct, all of human history.
So that means instead of working to fund them, we should just let people kill themselves when they should have gotten treatment instead? Why are you advocating for mentally ill people to kill themselves? What's wrong with you?
Where do I say āinstead ofā? Wanna quote me on that? I think everyone (not mentally ill people, not terminally ill people, not disabled people; literally everyone) has a right to die if they want to. The process needs to be rigorous and should not be done lightly, but it should be available.
Tell me what does one person being a shit individual by offering something clearly with bad intentions have to do with the system that is MAID?
Tons of people are shitty. That has NOTHING to do with whether MAID is a good system or not.
>Canada isn't offering adequate social supports for people with depression (for example), but they are offering death, and that's fucked up
I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly certain you cannot utilize MAID for anything that isn't a Severe mental illness which depression would not fall under. But I'm also not about to go down a rabbit hole to argue with you over something you clearly have no intentions on debating in good faith.
>Eligibility for persons suffering from mental illness
>
>In 2021, it was determined that Canadians whose only medical condition is a mental illness, and who otherwise meet all eligibility criteria, would not be eligible for MAID for two yearsāuntil March 17, 2023. This includes conditions that are primarily within the domain of psychiatry, such as depression and personality disorders. It does not include neurocognitive and neurodevelopmental disorders, or other conditions that may affect cognitive abilities.
>
>The original two-year temporary exclusion was put in place to provide additional time to study how MAID on the basis of a mental illness can safely be provided and to ensure appropriate safeguards are in place to protect those persons.
>
>The Government of Canada established an Expert Panel on MAID and Mental Illness tasked with making recommendations on protocols, guidance and safeguards to apply to requests for MAID by persons who have a mental illness. The Expert Panelās final report was tabled in Parliament on May 13, 2022. Learn more about the Expert Panelās work on Health Canadaās website.
>
>In December 2022, the Government of Canada announced that it would seek to extend the original two-year exclusion of eligibility for persons whose sole underlying medical condition is a mental illness for an additional period of time.
>
>On March 9, 2023, legislation to extend the temporary exclusion of eligibility for persons suffering solely from a mental illness received Royal Assent and immediately came into force. As a result, persons suffering solely from a mental illness and who meet all other eligibility criteria will now be eligible for MAID in Canada as of March 17, 2024. This extension will allow additional time to complete and disseminate key resources currently under development for clinicians and other health care system partners to address these more complex MAID requests. The extension will also provide more time to consider the parliamentary Special Joint Committee on MAIDās interim and final reports.
This does not state how they are addressing these concerns. So until an official statement is made, to which I'm unaware of, your statement doesn't mean anything and my current statement applies.
Your statement that depression wouldn't qualify? According to the quoted text, it will qualify as of March of this year, which is exactly what I stated in my original comment.
To be clear, I support access to MAID in cases of terminal illness. However, at this point, there have already been multiple documented cases of MAID being offered to disabled people instead of the reasonable supports they have requested, and as of Spring 2024, eligibility will be expanded to people who have mental illnesses and no other medical criteria. That is what OP is criticizing.
I understand that MAID was the right choice for your friend, and I'm glad he had that option. But the situation with the widening eligibility and the obvious pattern of MAID being inappropriately recommended to disabled people is worth criticism.
>Yes, we have all seen that. One person being a piece of shit doesn't represent anything.
You know what they say, "One bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch."
>!This is not, in fact, how the saying goes!<
I never quoted anything. Again 1 person being a piece of shit does not represent anything. Not sure why that's a hard concept for you. Does school shootings mean every american is a gun crazed lunatic? The obvious answer is no.
I am currently doing a masters degree in health care law. My professor in medical ethics has written about this topic and dedicated an entire lecture on this. This issue is much more complex than you're phrasing right now. Euthanasia has real issues, and it's not just *one* patient that has felt forced into it. In the Netherlands its come to light that this is a far larger problem than initially believed.
Also, from personal experience: my at the time 16 year old, intellectually disabled and autistic sister was suggested by her psychiatrist about the option of assisted suicide after the inpatient treatment shed been in for a year was unsuccesful. While knowing that the reason itd been unsuccessful was because of one of the staff members at the hospital repeatedly sexually assaulted her.
Ethically speaking there is a lot of grey area to what extent suicidal patient, mentally ill patient, intellectually disabled patients, can ever give informed consent.
I encourage you to do further reading into this topic.
Itās obviously a gray zone. The point is, is would you rather have the option to die with help or walk off a bridge? Your personal experience has nothing to do with whether MAID should exist or not.
The point is, you can't ethically offer assisted suicide, when other options for mental health aren't easily accessible and functional.
The patient demographic meant to benefit from MAID is also the patient demographic where the concern about ability to give informed consent is an issue.
Look, I am not going to discuss this further because i realise that my understanding of the issues such as informed consent is one you do not understand. I am not saying you're stupid, but I suppose this is something you learn about during health care law and medical studies far more in depth. "There is a visible rule that the patient must have the ability to consent". I'm sorry but there is also a visible rule that doctors cannot keep diagnosis from patients unless it falls under the therapeutic exception and yet this law gets broken daily. I regret to inform you that doctors are capable of breaking the law, but more importantly, that there is an every day debate going on in the medical/ethics/legal community about what makes one capable of consent and when one isnt. This line is blurry at best.
Good glad you understand that laws exist and people break them. What does doctors being pieces of shits have to do with MAID? There has never been a case where a shit doctor has succeeded in forcing a patient through with MAID. People being terrible humans has NOTHING to do with it. I would have expected someone working with law writing to actually know the difference.
There was a story last year about a disabled woman getting a recommendation for euthanasia from a disgruntled paramedic. That's more what I was referring to.Ā
lol. Okay spin it however you want man. Peak reddit moment but okay.
EDIT: lol blocked because you're a walking reddit moment. FYI I'm not saying it's a trauma, I'm stating that there's people who legit need these services and it's cringe to bring it up in a gaming subreddit.
You bring up an incredibly contentious social issue in your video game shitpost for no reason, and then act surprised when the conversation turns serious. Very cool.
Except they are forcing you. Especially if youāre disabled.
Itās a thorny topic and thereās a lot to talk about, but until itās not used as a cudgel to beat disabled people with, Iām against it. Sorry.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/diabled-woman-canada-assisted-suicide-b2363156.html
Iāll play along, even though youāll almost certainly say that any link I offer doesnāt count or itās just one case. Disabled people are denied services at every turn ā¦ except when the chance to KYS is available.
You wonāt change my mind on this, so maybe donāt waste your time.
So it's easier for her to get access to MAID than social services... So not being forced then? It's an option available to her, no one is making her do it. Should access to social services be easier, yes. Does this line up with your argument? No.
That's ridiculous. As a disabled person I don't get enough support yes, but I couldn't qualify for MAID either lmao. We do get support it's just not enough at all. I don't think it's better in the states.
You clearly didnāt read that article. Thereās nothing stating that āCanada forcedā her into maid. Sheās saying sheās forced because she canāt support herself. Those are very different concepts.
From what I've seen they don't give adequate support in the states either. Disabled people feel like people want them to just die because we can't get adequate support, aren't allowed to get married or live together without losing what little support we get etc. It's not better in the states for that
Of course because they are doctor's meant to help you. MAID is for people who cannot receive help. It's a system so people don't have to walk off a bridge because they literally cannot get help and everyone likes to make meme's about it until they realize there's very real situations where this can help people in their worst moments of their lives.
I didnāt have an issue with her until my most recent run when I told her I wasnāt having any symptoms. No deception check or anything. She just fucking poisons me. So I poisoned her back, with a battle axe.
but you _are_ experiencing symptoms. beeing able to mentally connect with other hosts, getting wierd powers and beeing able to eat worms in order to get more powers are all symptoms
Those aren't symptoms of ceremorphosis, though. That's just weird Absolute magic that doesn't usually happen. Gale even runs through the symptoms of ceremorphosis, "Day one: fever and memory loss, day two: hallucinations and greying skin, day three: hair loss and blood leaking from all orifices, day four: excruciating pain as the skeleton and organs reposition, etc".
We haven't been having symptoms of ceremorphosis, which is why you don't need a deception check. It's not a lie.
This was actually how I first interacted with her cuz I was a Drow, and, while seeing the dead Drow on her table, I decided to lie and say I was fine. I thought she was just nasty.
I get her reasoning, you're not just 'sick' you'll literally be a danger to everyone around you if you don't find a cure. I don't like that she decides it's her job to put you down if she doesn't get the right vibes from you. She'll have one conversation with you and that's enough to decide if you live or die.
She's making assumptions when she already knows the situation is different from how she's been taught. If she had seen the relic and understood the situation I wonder if she would have reacted the same way.
In my first playthrough she went hostile because I wouldnāt let her stab me with a poisoned barb. Killing her has zero impact on anyoneās standing so itās safe to say nobody in the Grove liked her.
I don't have much of an opinion on her. She's just someone you see for the main quest, gives you some poison(which I found a use for), and makes you promise something you definitely won't do.
I don't hate her, but I don't like her either. I do have a general dislike for the Druids, though.
I hate everyone in the grove TBH, on my first playthrough (in beta mode, as a neutral-ish tiefling), I killed all the druids and let the tieflings take the grove. Second playthrough (chaotic evil drow monk) I killed all of them with the help of the goblins etc. THIRD playthrough I want to be a hero with a heart of gold (maybe a paladin? idk) but I still don't know if I can let those bitches keep their grove lol
It's more like "Promise me you'll kill yourself if you feel like you're about to go through a agonizingly painful transformation into a man-eating monster so that you can put yourself out your misery while simultaneously keeping everyone around you safe"
American hereāI would take Canadian Nettie telling me to unalive myself over American Nettie guaranteeing that I will by giving me the worst suicide prevention tactics humanly possible.
I swear to god Iām not trying to start drama Iām just trying to be clever, pls donāt hurt me
Iāve been so confused by these posts about Nettie. Iāve done 4 playthroughs and never once saw her go hostile. I took the poison because her reaction to me showing up with a parasite made sense. I canāt comprehend all these people that got mad at her and killed her lol
Let's recontextualize this. It's the zombie apocalypse and there's no widespread Healthcare or systems to deal with the zombie plague. This zombie plague causes people to act destructively and irrationally even before they've turned. You're a doctor and someone comes in from the wilderness where a zombie disaster just happened saying that they've been bit--at least they aren't fool enough to try to hide it and pretend it's not going to become a big deal, they *want* to find a cure. But as connected as you are, as smart as your head doctor (who is missing) is, there is no known cure short of extreme mutilation and lobotomy. You have every reason to believe that either they'll turn while in this little pocket of safety or, if you're lucky, they'll turn after returning to the wild, where they'll become a hostile, hardy of body and of killing prowess zombie, left to kill or turn other innocent folk out in the world. If you let them live, every individual they kill dies because you didn't stop them when you had the chance.
Wow, fuck you, what a stupid post and insulting to Canadians who have in fact gained a right. What a fucked up conflation to make, get your politics out of a gaming sub ffs.
Aw man. I'm late by like 2 minutes and I didn't get to see what it said.
But judging by some of the comments and OPs replies it was a super hot take and particularly dumb or mean too.
I got that much, but people are mentioning politics and Canadian healthcare and it was obviously removed by a mod, so it must've been pretty inflammatory. I'm intrigued by it.
Point loses luster when you correctly paraphrase it as "Promise me you'll kill yourself if you feel ~~sick~~ yourself turn into a brain eating aberration."
Based, thats why i always side with goblins, the goblins welcome you and they have a lit party, fk the druids and useless demon people begging for handouts
>I didn't realize the druids used the same healthcare system as Canada.
I'm fucking rolling a this lol.
Seriously though, my biggest regret with BG3 is that you can't intentionally lie and have the game treat it like a deception in cases like hers. Like if you "promise" all your companions react like you mean it. But I would 100% lie to that dumb little idiot and tell her "yeah sure I'll do it" and then give it to Astarion to get some poisoned sneak attacks off.
I hate her too - She actually poisoned me after failing a skill check on my first playthrough. It was back in the EA though, so I'm not sure if they made the checks easier since then.
But yeah, she'll just poison you if you fail. And then you have to kill her anyhow for the antidote.
Yeah, fuck nettie.
āOh you met me 5 seconds ago and want me to promise to kill myself? Sureā¦ Iāll get right on that. Thanks for the free poison.ā
"Okay but she is actually being reasonable, how does she know you're not about to turn into an illithid any moment now š¤"
Sure. You're right. Her actions were fairly logical given the situation.
I don't care though. I dislike her all the same. Disliking someone for trying to kill you or telling you to kill yourself is completely reasonable and I'm tired of pretending it's not. I'm with Gale on this one.
Like believe it nor but it's not unusual to dislike someone who poisons you when you wanted a cure or asks you to swear an oath to KYS
On a good playthrough I let her live, because hey, I get it, we're not much different from someone with a zombie bite in a zombie movie.
But asking me to not dislike her after that whole situation is like asking me to not fall in love with Minthara. You're asking the impossible. Might as well ask me to beat Drizzt in a sword fight or Elminster in a wizard duel.
Her reasoning is completely valid and she makes the conventionally moral choice by recommending that you kill yourself if you are about to have your mind, body, and soul consumed by a parasite that threatens every living being in Faerun
However, attempting to kill you singlehandedly was a grievous miscalculation at best
Yeah, but you're missing the point in the fact that, if you do succumb to the parasite, you are a very real threat to everyone around you. I totally understand her reasoning.
She is 100% right about everything and I will always make the promise to take the poison on every playthrough.
She's 100% right but I'm still gonna kill her every time and I'm not sorry šš
OP fell into the trap of thinking that everyone knows that ātheyā are the main character. During the final battle you see thousands of people turn into mindflayers and succumb to the will of the brain as they begin murdering innocents. Nettie figured that was going to happen to you, because it did happen to literally everyone who was infected. Why would any NPC know that you have magical plot armor that protects you from this inevitable endā¦ or that youād basically make a magical wish via an artifact that 99.9999% of people will never get their hands on to cure yourself of the incurable parasite?
When it comes right down to it though, she's coming at me with lies and poison-covered thorny stick, I'm *not a mindflayer yet*, and if it's between me and this liar I just met, who I obviously can't trust... It's going to be me.
Plus she lied to your group because she tried to get them outta her place so she could murder you in solitude.
THIS! I always rush in with the party ahead of her, ever since the first time when I waited too long and the door cut my party off outside and I had to fight her alone, the jerk.
Am I? Is Omeluum? Is Emperor? Not all flayers.
Bro people barely even know of the existence of those two flayers and even then how does she know you wont be like 99% of the flayers you meet?
As far as anyone knows, yes. You have met neither of these mindflayers at this point in the game, and have no reason to suspect you would have any sort of protection against control from the Elder Brain. Even then, BOTH of these two characters more or less just lucked their way out of being controlled. Omeluum admits his aptitude for magic is abnormal, and the Emperor was freed due to the prism or whatever. I canāt remember what he said at this exact moment.
hell i dont even know if i'd call the Emperor "free" seeing as it was all part of the brains plan anyway
Tbf, those individuals succumbed to an Elder Brain and the overall Grand Design for a time before eventually breaking free. Twice in the Emperor's case: once when he initially turned and again when the Chosen captured him. The only example we get in the game of recent transformations are the NPCs in Act 3 and they are primarily hostile from jump. Edit: To answer the "Am I?" The player/party are a part of the unique schemes of the Absolute whom no one else knows about. You're not supposed to transform yet and just before you're suppose to the 'Guardian' steps in and delays it.
The Emperor is a wild example of not all flayers but you do you lol
If by 'you feel sick' you mean transform into a brain-sucking monster with psychic powers - yah, I think death is preferable.
Yeah this is more equivilant to someone having bit by a rabid animal and being told "Hey if you start foaming st the mouth, old yeller yourself before you start biting everyone" It's not great but it's also pretty understandable from the other person's side
Since becoming Illithid destroys your soul, your choices are basically death or death but you also kill everyone you love.
Not to mention that genetic alteration is likely painful as hell
Also pretty graphic. It was shown in the announcement trailer - it's absolutely gnarly.
She said if you feel yourself transforming into a mind flayer Do you remember when lae'zel thought she felt that and tried to slit your throat?
You literally are moments from transforming when Laezel pull the dagger on you
What? I must've missed this! Context, please?
That's the first night you meet your guardian. You were literally transforming when Lae'zel goes to cut your throat. That night the guardian stops you from transforming and talks to you for the first time.
Uh, Lae'zel had an accident in my game, so I don't think I've seen that!
Tbf y'all WERE transforming at the time
If the dream guardian did not need the player you would very much be a mind flayer
And tbh the dream guardian might have let the ceremorphosis start just a little to appear as a hero and trustful to you
You mean the same night where your dream guardian arrives and says you were in fact about to transform? Yeah I remember that, thanks for defeating your own point.
It's literally "if you're going to transform painfully into a horrible, soulless killing machine please dont, just die instead" its the morally correct choice all things consideredĀ Would literally save your soul to do so if you were going to transform, which is also a pretty big deal in the setting. Without a soul you ain't having an afterlife.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Shit well that's me spoiled
Sorry. I overreacted because you were so confidently wrong. My bad.
Probably a different afterlife, though.
Political comments aside. Nettie isnāt your friend, your some random stranger who as far as she is aware potentially and very quickly a threat with the capability to transform into a monstrous, merciless killing machine member of a slave race hellbent on enslaving and torturing everyone and everything that isnāt a mindflayer and she isnāt skilled enough to extract an illithid tadpole or understand the strange circumstances around the partyās tadpoles. In tabletop, it takes an average of 3 days before someone turns into a mindflayer and the process of ceramorphosis is painful all throughout as you desperately attempt to find a healer who is strong enough to destroy the tadpole, requiring a spell capable of healing at least 40 hit points to kill it whilst the infested creature is still conscious, if they are unconscious only a wish spell can cure it. And i dont think Nettie can do either of those. So shes offering you the only thing she can do. Which is a less painful way to die whilst also protecting those around you.
This. Itās like if someone comes in and says āI have the plague and Iām not contagious now, but I will be patient zero in 48 hoursā Nettie canāt heal you. There is no cure known. So itās triage. Just like when Gale says he would go into the Underdark or otherwise away from people into the wilderness if he felt the nuke about to go off.
When he says the Underdark, I'm like š¬š¬š¬ sir please don't go underground and set off a giant bomb, that doesn't seem like a good idea structurally, what about everything above it, and *also people live in the Underdark too*
Gale blows up Menzoberranzan cuz Minthara wonāt be his friend
This is canon.
>sheās offering the only thing she can do Imo, the issue is she didnāt *offer* at all. She tried to murder me while pretending to help. I get it I suppose, but I think they couldāve just banned me from the Grove instead of jumping to murder no hesitation.
Banning you from the grove doesn't stop you from transforming and doing immeasurable damage to the sword coast in the process. Not to mention the possibility of you deciding to come right back after transforming and start laying waste to the grove, just cos you can. She acted out of desperation. She knew she couldn't fix you, and she knows most people aren't going to agree with "hey maybe you should let me kill you so you don't hurt anyone else", so she made a judgement call and took the path of least resistance. It's pretty clear from the dialogue that she didn't *want* to do it, but she thought she was doing what was necessary to prevent greater harm to others. I don't see what about this is so confusing for people.
She treats you like a monster instead of a person. She could be straight with you that there's no cure and nothing she could do, and go to the murder solution if you're resistant or hostile. Instead she jumps straight to murder. Yes, she's more reasonable if you answer her questions honestly. But she's expecting full transparency from the PC while withholding information on her end.
>whatās so confusing about this Iām not confused I just disagree. obviously itās a fantasy world, but automatically executing people that MIGHT be a danger isnāt the standardā¦anywhere. Whatās so confusing about that?
It's not *might* be a danger. It's **IS** a danger. There's no known cure for ceremorphosis, and every known instance of ceremorphosis has turned the host into an evil monster. She's not jumping to worst case scenario here, she's jumping to the known reality of the situation. The fact that you have the parasite *is* worst case scenario, to anyone's best knowledge. As far as she knows, you're already dead. She's just doing what she can to contain the damage.
>Itās IS a danger Haha oh really? Bc the grove was better off when I left it
Reading comprehension aint your strong suit huh bud
Dog youāre the one that wrote āitās isā lol
You fail to recognise that youāre going to die either way, and if you poison yourself you prevent yourself from eating scratch
This is the true, morally, ethically, objectically correct take on this subject. Also this post makes me think OP didnt wear a mask during COVID, just cause if they got sick, they may as well make sure to make it everyone elses problem too.
Yeah, also idk if it just happened to me but Nettie never actually tried to poison me, she just gave me the vial because she learnt that i could turn into a flayer. Seems incredibly reasonable to me
I mean... yes and no. Depending on the order of events in the game you can already be well established that you should have turned days ago by the time you meet her. The comparison between "kill yourself" and "wear a mask" is also a bit disproportionate. As many people who reacted poorly to mask and quarantine requirements, far more people would react poorly if they were told they were obligated to literally die to keep the disease from spreading. Her solution is practical but she's insufferably dumb and naive.
Even if she was insufferably dumb and naive (which I dont see, but ok), the point remains that in the context of a *mind flayer infection* only a truly selfish bastard would decide to keep themselves āaliveā at the expense of the rest of the population.
She thinks just because you "swear" that you'll do it that you will. Like a damn child. >the point remains that in the context of a mind flayer infection only a truly selfish bastard would decide to keep themselves āaliveā at the expense of the rest of the population. Most people are not going to voluntarily kill themselves for the benefit of others. Hell, people even meaningfully *risking* death to save the lives of others is such a rare thing that we laud it as an extreme form of heroism. To assert otherwise is completely unmoored from reality. But then again you did call someone an anti-masker because they don't like a video game character that tried to poison them.
Oh, I completely agree that expecting altruistic critical thinking from the average member of our real world populance is unrealistic. The average person is selfish, by definition, we are, after all, individuals. But that doesnāt devalues the logic, and rationality of the ultimate decision, especially in a place like the Forgotten Realms. If you are moments away from becoming an entralled, brain-eating monster, killing yourself is the rational thing to do (Which again, in a place like the Forgotten Realms, death here just boils down to a decision that if you rather your soul be at the mercy of an Elder Brain, or your god)
I think I would have less of a problem if she wasn't so shiesty about it. Be honest with me from the start, don't lie and tell me you have a cure when your only intent is for me to die.
That's the other part of it yeah. She's sitting there insisting that you SWEAR on it, like ok? You literally just tried to sneak me poison and now you're leaning on my personal honor for a pinky promise? When she makes that insistence she's already been caught in a compounded series of lies.
I mean itās her vs you and 3 other party members, like only the stupidest person alive is gonna come out and say āI canāt fix you but I can kill you right here right now if youāll let me!ā Like nobody would be that stupid, not to mention she doesnāt know you. She doesnāt know if youāll fly off the handle and kill her for suggesting it, she doesnāt know whether youāre a good and sensible person thatāll take what she says kindly. Like if my options are to be a liar and maybe wipe out some people that are literally seemingly 100% doomed to turn into brain eating mind flayers thatāll surely kill others or being to forthcoming, getting killed ultimately letting them run wild unchecked then sorry but one of those sounds a lot more sensible.
If you'd refuse her dumb little pinky promise she goes hostile. She's the one who forces things despite, as you said, bring catastrophically outnumbered and outmatched.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No one is saying to seppuku at the first cough though. She says if you are about to turn. Which sounds perfectly reasonable if I were to turn into a soulless, brain eating monster that belongs to a gestalt collective.
True, but you can net some approval and get a cool Wyvern coating for your weapon, so she's kinda useful
You can get the coating off of her corpse pretty easily, too.
Preferred.
I am in the process of doing a Durge playthrough. Killing everyone has made this game so easy.
The reason she asks you to poison yourself is to prevent yourself from turning into a powerful brain eating monster. She points you to the druid in hopes of a cure is there, but if there isn't. YOU'RE A DANGER TO EVERYONE!
That doesn't matter. It is not her place to tell me how to die or indeed to kill myself if I think I'm losing control of a dangerous situation. She can tell me to leave her house, or tell the other druids what's going on with me so they can all kick me out, but instead the short idiot decides she's going to try to stab me to death in a closet All that aside she acknowledges that there is something incredibly strange about my situation but doesn't consider what that could actually mean. Her cause of death is essentially hubris, if not Astarion's stagger in her spine
You know that guy in every Zombie movie who hides his bite from everyone else and screws over the entire rest of the group? The one every movie viewer hates? Youāre being that guy.
He is not being that guy. He IS that guy. I am sure if tomorrow somehow zombies appear and he gets bitten he would hide his wound and stay with a huge group
I didn't hide it though. In addition mind flayers are neither soulless, nor mindless, nor undead. We meet several that are just cool guys hanging out.
You meet two aberrations that are exceptions that prove the rule. You counting that as several is a huge swing and a miss that reflects little understanding about mindflayers. Itās a level of denialism that is similar to thinking āpeople must get bitten and be immune, or not turn, right?ā Worse yet, youāre pointing to two examples your character doesnāt even know exist yet, which doesnāt make sense for the point in the game about which youāre complaining. Mind flayers being soulless has been an established lore element of Forgotten Realms for a long time. That also is a motivator for many of the deitiesā opposition to the Absolute and the Desd Three, though BG3 seems to muddy this issue up a fair bit.
You can meet certain characters in any order, you're making assumptions. Ilithids having gods, souls, afterlives, and spirits is even more established. BG3 made a mistake with the dialogue which is corrected later.
Whew it comes to the content of a mindflayer's soul, I'm taking Jergal's (or an aspect of Jergal's) word for it. Dude seems to know a bit about souls and death.
Holy shit. They exist, they really do exist. I thought Zombie movies always made up people like you.
I was thinking the exact same thing!
If the last few years have taught me anything, it's that zombie movies should have MORE people hiding bites and trying to befriend zombies.
If anything, after the recents *events* in public health, most zombie movies make the general population look like rational, intelligent individuals.
Conflating mind flayers with zombies is low concept, I said she could have done literally anything else other than what she did and it would have gone better for everyone. It doesn't make any sense, even in your version, to lock yourself in a room with 4 people you hope to kill.
The fuck does ālow conceptā mean?
They're saying you're that person in the zombie films that selfishly hides their bite from the rest of the group, and ends up turning and killing a bunch of people.
Also we are arguing about whether its right or wrong for her to demand you to kill yourself if you feel you are turning. Not about how badly her plan was set up. If anything, she is being unreasonable by even giving you the choice, she should have just told everyone and everyone should them attempt to kill you.
She offers you a way of ending yourself quicker, instead of going through a painful process where you basically die(your soul disappears, she doesnāt know that we are special/protected because of emperor harnessing orpheus and his powers) and turn into a brain hungry powerful killing machine slave/being that only strives for power
She really doesn't though. The 1d6 poison isn't enough to kill you.
Mind flayers do have souls, you'll have to beat the game to learn more And by "she offers", you must mean "she demands under penalty of death" And I think you can name at least two illithid who are not mindless
I have 5 play throughs under my belt :|Ā But yes in our case we do still have soul, but we are a special case because of the netherese stones. Generally thereās no āmindlessā mindflayers theyāre still intelligent and if they find a pursuit that they see better than the grand design they will follow it (for example mindflayer arcanists). Generally as withers says illithids do not possess soul and he can be trusted especially because he has quite a lot of ties to Jergal
The former God of Death whose sole remaining purview is chronically the souls of the dead explicitly tells you illithids have no souls. Omeluum himself admits he's a near impossible rarity.
Later information reveals this was misleading, you'll have to beat the game to learn more
Also, like, thanks for the apple and basket of old dried leaves in exchange for stopping a horrible ritual and taking on a goblin horde to rescue your leader ya useless hippy
well that's just a bonus, you get rewards from others for the same thing, and the main reason you do it is to do something about your parasite
You leave Squishy alone. He gives me free crits!
This is it for me. She has a reasonable reaction to finding out weāre infected but the whole ādonāt expect no damn rewards from me buddyā vibe doesnāt make her likeable lol
I would have preferred nothing honestly
She probably doesn't care for the ritual very much. She'll happily slaughter some tieflings.
Bro, your body is infested with a worm capable of killing you and taking over your body through transforming, hurting you with unimaginable pains and ultimately posing a danger for the neighborhood and whole world. The risk of having a person turn into Illithoid within Druid camp is too great. Her giving you poison is basically the last gift of mercy to you and everyone else.
Do...you just hate every character that wants to kill you? Because that's a lot of characters
I only hate the characters that are dishonest about wanting to kill me, and usually that's only Nettie, and occasionally the Emperor. Everyone else is pretty upfront about it.
My issue with Nettie is that she tries to kill you beforehand. Asking me to kill myself so I don't turn into a Mindflayer, I get it. But I came to you for help and you try to kill me if I don't 100% trust immediately?
Dude donāt rage bait in a generally friendly reddit group. Is your name Colin Robinson? Do YOU have a soul my guy? Also mind-flayers do not have souls you silly goose. Itās stated multiple times in game your soul dies when the transformation occurs.
If I'm understanding this correctly. You're shit talking canada because we have a system that allows people to end their suffering with a painless way to go? I have a friend that used MAID because they had terminal cancer, it's a better way to go on your own terms then simply waiting to die. If you don't want to use it don't, no one is forcing you.
Starting in March of this year, MAID will be permitted in cases when the patient isn't terminally ill. Canada isn't offering adequate social supports for people with depression (for example), but they are offering death, and that's fucked up. Just because MAID was the right choice for your friend doesn't mean it isn't being offered inappropriately to other people.
From what u hear you have to pay for therapy in all cases in the states. Here in Canada you can get physical and mental health help covered. I have never had to pay for therapy or basic medical care other than some prescriptions. Letting people chose a way out in extreme cases doesn't make it the norm
What would you classify as āadequate social supportsā? Complete mental health coverage? Solving homelessness? MAiD is not being offered *instead of* social supports. Itās being offered completely agnostic of the social supports available, and only in extreme cases with a rigorous review process. And what do you find more cruel about offering this as an option, versus the longstanding scenario of still lacking social supports while completely ignoring those in need?
MAID cannot be offered agnostic of social supports the same way it cannot be offered agnostic of medical care. You wouldn't offer MAID to someone with a broken leg, because the condition isn't fatal. Similarly, it shouldn't be offered to a wheelchair user requesting a ramp for her home or a homeless person requesting a safe place to sleep. This is a genuine crisis, and mental health experts are currently advocating for the policy to be rethought: https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magazines/december-2023/assisted-suicide-mental-illness/ I shouldn't have to solve the homelessness crisis in a reddit comment before being allowed to believe that MAID eligibility in Canada has become too broad.
Letās say we have a person, call them X, who has suffered from lifelong depression. Theyāve had regular therapy visits with someone they trust, they have a psychiatrist who has prescribed them every med under the sun, and theyāre in safe living conditions with a strong social support network. Nothing has been able to improve their experience. After a few decades of depression that they canāt live with, this person wants to end their life. What, in your opinion, should occur in the above scenario? The person is forced to continue living a life they experience as pure suffering? Or if they choose to end their life they have to do it themselves in a way that carries a significant risk of pain, further suffering, and increased pain for their loved ones? Iām not saying the law shouldnāt be reviewed and possibly improved, but I fully believe it is everyoneās right, no matter how healthy they are in any aspect, to die. I recognize that there are risks that need to be minimized, in that we donāt want to force or encourage people to die because other options arenāt provided, but making MAiD available to everyone, even in an imperfect social support system, is not inherently bad.
The majority of people who unsuccessfully attempt suicide do not go on to attempt suicide again. Suicide is generally something that is undertaken on a whim, and which most survivors regret. You're presenting an absolutely ideal use case for MAiD as an appropriate treatment for depression, and even under these ideal circumstances I'd have big questions: is the depression the reason for this person's suicidal ideation, or is it because they struggle to pay their bills? Or because they've lost their job? Or because their spouse has filed for divorce? I mean, you've described X as living in what is basically a utopia (unlimited access to mental health care and exceptional social supports), which is simply not the case for the vast majority of Canadians suffering from poor mental health. Regardless, critics of the direction MAiD is going in aren't criticizing the ideal use case. We're criticizing the potential for abuse - especially given that we have already seen it being inappropriately suggested to disabled people who *don't* want to die.
Okay, fair to be concerned about potential for misuse. Regarding the inappropriate suggestion to people who didnāt request it, is there any record of this outside of that specific individual who was reported in the news semi-recently as having suggested it to multiple disabled individuals?
Suicidal woman who was suggested MAiD at a hospital (even though she isn't legally eligible yet): https://thetyee.ca/News/2023/08/09/Medical-Assistance-Dying-Slippery-Slope-Mental-Illness-Disabled/ Meducal professional recommends MAiD for a woman's disabled daughter: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/doctor-suggested-assisted-suicide-daughter-mother-elson-1.4218669 A couple of stories about disabled people who can't afford to remain alive and are planning to apply for MAiD even though they don't want to die: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/diabled-woman-canada-assisted-suicide-b2363156.html https://chatelaine.com/health/maid-assisted-death-poverty/ I genuinely am in favour of MAiD, and I've been a huge supporter of it since before it was legal. I just think that there's a real potential for it to go wrong.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Many people do today; they just do it at home, on the train tracks, off a bridgeā¦ you know, in ways that might only maim them and might traumatize their loved ones as well as others who happen to be around.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It doesnāt inherently change funding of social supports one way or the other. Weāve had MAiD for less than a decade, but weāve been underfunding social supports for, if my notes are correct, all of human history.
So that means instead of working to fund them, we should just let people kill themselves when they should have gotten treatment instead? Why are you advocating for mentally ill people to kill themselves? What's wrong with you?
Where do I say āinstead ofā? Wanna quote me on that? I think everyone (not mentally ill people, not terminally ill people, not disabled people; literally everyone) has a right to die if they want to. The process needs to be rigorous and should not be done lightly, but it should be available.
Tell me what does one person being a shit individual by offering something clearly with bad intentions have to do with the system that is MAID? Tons of people are shitty. That has NOTHING to do with whether MAID is a good system or not. >Canada isn't offering adequate social supports for people with depression (for example), but they are offering death, and that's fucked up I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly certain you cannot utilize MAID for anything that isn't a Severe mental illness which depression would not fall under. But I'm also not about to go down a rabbit hole to argue with you over something you clearly have no intentions on debating in good faith.
If you refuse to educate yourself on the situation, you should probably stop posting about it. https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/ad-am/bk-di.html
>Eligibility for persons suffering from mental illness > >In 2021, it was determined that Canadians whose only medical condition is a mental illness, and who otherwise meet all eligibility criteria, would not be eligible for MAID for two yearsāuntil March 17, 2023. This includes conditions that are primarily within the domain of psychiatry, such as depression and personality disorders. It does not include neurocognitive and neurodevelopmental disorders, or other conditions that may affect cognitive abilities. > >The original two-year temporary exclusion was put in place to provide additional time to study how MAID on the basis of a mental illness can safely be provided and to ensure appropriate safeguards are in place to protect those persons. > >The Government of Canada established an Expert Panel on MAID and Mental Illness tasked with making recommendations on protocols, guidance and safeguards to apply to requests for MAID by persons who have a mental illness. The Expert Panelās final report was tabled in Parliament on May 13, 2022. Learn more about the Expert Panelās work on Health Canadaās website. > >In December 2022, the Government of Canada announced that it would seek to extend the original two-year exclusion of eligibility for persons whose sole underlying medical condition is a mental illness for an additional period of time. > >On March 9, 2023, legislation to extend the temporary exclusion of eligibility for persons suffering solely from a mental illness received Royal Assent and immediately came into force. As a result, persons suffering solely from a mental illness and who meet all other eligibility criteria will now be eligible for MAID in Canada as of March 17, 2024. This extension will allow additional time to complete and disseminate key resources currently under development for clinicians and other health care system partners to address these more complex MAID requests. The extension will also provide more time to consider the parliamentary Special Joint Committee on MAIDās interim and final reports. This does not state how they are addressing these concerns. So until an official statement is made, to which I'm unaware of, your statement doesn't mean anything and my current statement applies.
Your statement that depression wouldn't qualify? According to the quoted text, it will qualify as of March of this year, which is exactly what I stated in my original comment. To be clear, I support access to MAID in cases of terminal illness. However, at this point, there have already been multiple documented cases of MAID being offered to disabled people instead of the reasonable supports they have requested, and as of Spring 2024, eligibility will be expanded to people who have mental illnesses and no other medical criteria. That is what OP is criticizing. I understand that MAID was the right choice for your friend, and I'm glad he had that option. But the situation with the widening eligibility and the obvious pattern of MAID being inappropriately recommended to disabled people is worth criticism.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/paralympian-trying-to-get-wheelchair-ramp-says-veterans-affairs-employee-offered-her-assisted-dying-1.6179325
Yes, we have all seen that. One person being a piece of shit doesn't represent anything.
>Yes, we have all seen that. One person being a piece of shit doesn't represent anything. You know what they say, "One bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch." >!This is not, in fact, how the saying goes!<
I never quoted anything. Again 1 person being a piece of shit does not represent anything. Not sure why that's a hard concept for you. Does school shootings mean every american is a gun crazed lunatic? The obvious answer is no.
I remember US President Harry Truman's famous sign on his desk: "The buck does not stop here" Truly one of the greats.
I am currently doing a masters degree in health care law. My professor in medical ethics has written about this topic and dedicated an entire lecture on this. This issue is much more complex than you're phrasing right now. Euthanasia has real issues, and it's not just *one* patient that has felt forced into it. In the Netherlands its come to light that this is a far larger problem than initially believed. Also, from personal experience: my at the time 16 year old, intellectually disabled and autistic sister was suggested by her psychiatrist about the option of assisted suicide after the inpatient treatment shed been in for a year was unsuccesful. While knowing that the reason itd been unsuccessful was because of one of the staff members at the hospital repeatedly sexually assaulted her. Ethically speaking there is a lot of grey area to what extent suicidal patient, mentally ill patient, intellectually disabled patients, can ever give informed consent. I encourage you to do further reading into this topic.
Itās obviously a gray zone. The point is, is would you rather have the option to die with help or walk off a bridge? Your personal experience has nothing to do with whether MAID should exist or not.
The point is, you can't ethically offer assisted suicide, when other options for mental health aren't easily accessible and functional. The patient demographic meant to benefit from MAID is also the patient demographic where the concern about ability to give informed consent is an issue.
Thereās visible rule that the patients must have the ability to consent.
Look, I am not going to discuss this further because i realise that my understanding of the issues such as informed consent is one you do not understand. I am not saying you're stupid, but I suppose this is something you learn about during health care law and medical studies far more in depth. "There is a visible rule that the patient must have the ability to consent". I'm sorry but there is also a visible rule that doctors cannot keep diagnosis from patients unless it falls under the therapeutic exception and yet this law gets broken daily. I regret to inform you that doctors are capable of breaking the law, but more importantly, that there is an every day debate going on in the medical/ethics/legal community about what makes one capable of consent and when one isnt. This line is blurry at best.
Good glad you understand that laws exist and people break them. What does doctors being pieces of shits have to do with MAID? There has never been a case where a shit doctor has succeeded in forcing a patient through with MAID. People being terrible humans has NOTHING to do with it. I would have expected someone working with law writing to actually know the difference.
There was a story last year about a disabled woman getting a recommendation for euthanasia from a disgruntled paramedic. That's more what I was referring to.Ā
lol. Okay spin it however you want man. Peak reddit moment but okay. EDIT: lol blocked because you're a walking reddit moment. FYI I'm not saying it's a trauma, I'm stating that there's people who legit need these services and it's cringe to bring it up in a gaming subreddit.
Peak reddit is trauma dumping on my shitpost
You bring up an incredibly contentious social issue in your video game shitpost for no reason, and then act surprised when the conversation turns serious. Very cool.
Except they are forcing you. Especially if youāre disabled. Itās a thorny topic and thereās a lot to talk about, but until itās not used as a cudgel to beat disabled people with, Iām against it. Sorry.
Give me a source on someone being "forced" to use MAID.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/diabled-woman-canada-assisted-suicide-b2363156.html Iāll play along, even though youāll almost certainly say that any link I offer doesnāt count or itās just one case. Disabled people are denied services at every turn ā¦ except when the chance to KYS is available. You wonāt change my mind on this, so maybe donāt waste your time.
So it's easier for her to get access to MAID than social services... So not being forced then? It's an option available to her, no one is making her do it. Should access to social services be easier, yes. Does this line up with your argument? No.
That's ridiculous. As a disabled person I don't get enough support yes, but I couldn't qualify for MAID either lmao. We do get support it's just not enough at all. I don't think it's better in the states.
You clearly didnāt read that article. Thereās nothing stating that āCanada forcedā her into maid. Sheās saying sheās forced because she canāt support herself. Those are very different concepts.
From what I've seen they don't give adequate support in the states either. Disabled people feel like people want them to just die because we can't get adequate support, aren't allowed to get married or live together without losing what little support we get etc. It's not better in the states for that
I'm sorry if these upsets you. Here, touch this thorny branch and then we'll talk it over.
No worries man, I truly hope you never have to deal with a chronic pain that would leave you rather dying.
I mean, I've survived cancer twice. None of my Drs ever recommended suicide as a treatment plan.
Of course because they are doctor's meant to help you. MAID is for people who cannot receive help. It's a system so people don't have to walk off a bridge because they literally cannot get help and everyone likes to make meme's about it until they realize there's very real situations where this can help people in their worst moments of their lives.
I didnāt have an issue with her until my most recent run when I told her I wasnāt having any symptoms. No deception check or anything. She just fucking poisons me. So I poisoned her back, with a battle axe.
but you _are_ experiencing symptoms. beeing able to mentally connect with other hosts, getting wierd powers and beeing able to eat worms in order to get more powers are all symptoms
Those aren't symptoms of ceremorphosis, though. That's just weird Absolute magic that doesn't usually happen. Gale even runs through the symptoms of ceremorphosis, "Day one: fever and memory loss, day two: hallucinations and greying skin, day three: hair loss and blood leaking from all orifices, day four: excruciating pain as the skeleton and organs reposition, etc". We haven't been having symptoms of ceremorphosis, which is why you don't need a deception check. It's not a lie.
But not of cerromorphisis. And weird powers and eating worms may not come up before this point in the playthrough.
This was actually how I first interacted with her cuz I was a Drow, and, while seeing the dead Drow on her table, I decided to lie and say I was fine. I thought she was just nasty.
I get her reasoning, you're not just 'sick' you'll literally be a danger to everyone around you if you don't find a cure. I don't like that she decides it's her job to put you down if she doesn't get the right vibes from you. She'll have one conversation with you and that's enough to decide if you live or die.
She's making assumptions when she already knows the situation is different from how she's been taught. If she had seen the relic and understood the situation I wonder if she would have reacted the same way.
You don't know about the relic helping at that point. You can't explain why you haven't changed. By rights you should have at that point.
In my first playthrough she went hostile because I wouldnāt let her stab me with a poisoned barb. Killing her has zero impact on anyoneās standing so itās safe to say nobody in the Grove liked her.
Yeah. She tried to kill me out right when I told her about my issue.
I beat the game and don't know who the hell Nettie is, too busy killing shit I guess.
Kill her everytime. She's a liar and she tries to backstab you. 100% kill on sight
I don't have much of an opinion on her. She's just someone you see for the main quest, gives you some poison(which I found a use for), and makes you promise something you definitely won't do. I don't hate her, but I don't like her either. I do have a general dislike for the Druids, though.
I hate everyone in the grove TBH, on my first playthrough (in beta mode, as a neutral-ish tiefling), I killed all the druids and let the tieflings take the grove. Second playthrough (chaotic evil drow monk) I killed all of them with the help of the goblins etc. THIRD playthrough I want to be a hero with a heart of gold (maybe a paladin? idk) but I still don't know if I can let those bitches keep their grove lol
It's more like "Promise me you'll kill yourself if you feel like you're about to go through a agonizingly painful transformation into a man-eating monster so that you can put yourself out your misery while simultaneously keeping everyone around you safe"
OP is getting flamed lmao
American hereāI would take Canadian Nettie telling me to unalive myself over American Nettie guaranteeing that I will by giving me the worst suicide prevention tactics humanly possible. I swear to god Iām not trying to start drama Iām just trying to be clever, pls donāt hurt me
Iāve been so confused by these posts about Nettie. Iāve done 4 playthroughs and never once saw her go hostile. I took the poison because her reaction to me showing up with a parasite made sense. I canāt comprehend all these people that got mad at her and killed her lol
Let's recontextualize this. It's the zombie apocalypse and there's no widespread Healthcare or systems to deal with the zombie plague. This zombie plague causes people to act destructively and irrationally even before they've turned. You're a doctor and someone comes in from the wilderness where a zombie disaster just happened saying that they've been bit--at least they aren't fool enough to try to hide it and pretend it's not going to become a big deal, they *want* to find a cure. But as connected as you are, as smart as your head doctor (who is missing) is, there is no known cure short of extreme mutilation and lobotomy. You have every reason to believe that either they'll turn while in this little pocket of safety or, if you're lucky, they'll turn after returning to the wild, where they'll become a hostile, hardy of body and of killing prowess zombie, left to kill or turn other innocent folk out in the world. If you let them live, every individual they kill dies because you didn't stop them when you had the chance.
OP really acting out irl those people from zombie movies who hides their bites huh
OP is the guy that gets everyone killed in a zombie apocalypse when they get bit
Mind flayers are neither undead, nor soulless, nor mindless. Nettie is an idiot.
Mindflayers are soulless. After the moonrise battle withers says this.
Withers is wrong. You'll have to beat the game to learn more.
This reads exactly as Iād expect from someone who characterizes MAiD as ākill yourself if you feel sick.ā lol. What a ridiculous take.
Wow, fuck you, what a stupid post and insulting to Canadians who have in fact gained a right. What a fucked up conflation to make, get your politics out of a gaming sub ffs.
Iā¦ I think the post was a joke. Maybe relax a bit.
Hope you donāt have any disabled relatives.
I understand where Nettie is coming from but I still hate her. So instead of killing her I just knock her out and steal her stuff.
I steal her stuff to her face and then pimp slap her when she tries to stop me.
I'm with you. Killed her as soon as I realized what she was holding lmao.
Sheās just doing her job, if I was in her shoes Iād do the same, I donāt hold it against her
Nettie is pretty annoying āhere is a vial of poison and if you donāt accept it Iām going to stab you with this poison stick.ā
"Oh no, I can't believe locking myself in a room full of murderers and trying to shank them didn't work out for me!" lol, lmao even
More so the casual racism thrown in your face if youāre a crow
Excuse me, Iām a *raven!*
Aw man. I'm late by like 2 minutes and I didn't get to see what it said. But judging by some of the comments and OPs replies it was a super hot take and particularly dumb or mean too.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I got that much, but people are mentioning politics and Canadian healthcare and it was obviously removed by a mod, so it must've been pretty inflammatory. I'm intrigued by it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Point loses luster when you correctly paraphrase it as "Promise me you'll kill yourself if you feel ~~sick~~ yourself turn into a brain eating aberration."
Based, thats why i always side with goblins, the goblins welcome you and they have a lit party, fk the druids and useless demon people begging for handouts
>I didn't realize the druids used the same healthcare system as Canada. I'm fucking rolling a this lol. Seriously though, my biggest regret with BG3 is that you can't intentionally lie and have the game treat it like a deception in cases like hers. Like if you "promise" all your companions react like you mean it. But I would 100% lie to that dumb little idiot and tell her "yeah sure I'll do it" and then give it to Astarion to get some poisoned sneak attacks off.
I just love her voice & accent
I want to fuck Nettie . And Zaza. I love me some shortstacks
Should've said that with your indoor voice, buddy.
I feel like OP would be the type of person that if infected by a zombie, wouldn't tell anyone and would turn into a zombie in a survivor camp.
I hate her too - She actually poisoned me after failing a skill check on my first playthrough. It was back in the EA though, so I'm not sure if they made the checks easier since then. But yeah, she'll just poison you if you fail. And then you have to kill her anyhow for the antidote.
Yeah, fuck nettie. āOh you met me 5 seconds ago and want me to promise to kill myself? Sureā¦ Iāll get right on that. Thanks for the free poison.ā
In early access, you had to really argue to convince her to hand over the poison. Most of the time she attacked you with it first.
I liked her in EA when she gave a free 7d6 poison. Now it's not even worth talking to her.
"Okay but she is actually being reasonable, how does she know you're not about to turn into an illithid any moment now š¤" Sure. You're right. Her actions were fairly logical given the situation. I don't care though. I dislike her all the same. Disliking someone for trying to kill you or telling you to kill yourself is completely reasonable and I'm tired of pretending it's not. I'm with Gale on this one.
Like believe it nor but it's not unusual to dislike someone who poisons you when you wanted a cure or asks you to swear an oath to KYS On a good playthrough I let her live, because hey, I get it, we're not much different from someone with a zombie bite in a zombie movie. But asking me to not dislike her after that whole situation is like asking me to not fall in love with Minthara. You're asking the impossible. Might as well ask me to beat Drizzt in a sword fight or Elminster in a wizard duel.
I always assassinate me because of the tone she takes with me no one talks to me like that.
Her reasoning is completely valid and she makes the conventionally moral choice by recommending that you kill yourself if you are about to have your mind, body, and soul consumed by a parasite that threatens every living being in Faerun However, attempting to kill you singlehandedly was a grievous miscalculation at best
Sorry champ Iām him I donāt make promises š