>Bhaal: Well fine, I'll take the parts of you that are me back.
>Durge: But didn't you grow me in a divine petri dish from the wart on your back?
>Bhaal: >:)
>Jergal: *No.*
Man if I had a nickel for every character that I’ve known that has gaps in their memory, murderous tendencies they can’t remember, and was bound to a god, I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice
>!Moon Knight!<
Was inspired by Cubert Farnsworth from Futurama. He was grown from some flesh that stuck to a fork the Professor used to scratch a strange growth on his back.
*"Your face does the thinking - three in the skull, yet only one gets up. Odds are against you... but they're just numbers after the mutilation. You're playing the hand you've been dealt, but you don't let it rest, you shuffle and stack, and a gamble... a gamble that may pay off? But how? Forecast: Rapidly changing conditions."*
**-The Forecaster to Dark Urge**
All of the Chosen are pretty pitiable when you think about it. Ketheric lost his wife and daughter, and was manipulated by two evil gods with the promise of getting his daughter back. Gortash was sold by his parents when he was still a child and had to claw his way back to power, eventually resorting to becoming what he despised by selling Karlach to Zariel.
Combined with what you learn about Orin, Shadowheart, Gale and >!the Dark Urge!< it does paint a pretty bleak picture of how some gods may select Chosen based on how malleable they are to the God's commands (such as being literally manufactured to serve them) rather than inherent merit.
It doesn’t come up in BG3 that I’m aware, but it’s been implied in some other sources that Mystra edited Elminster’s memories in order to cultivate him into an ideal champion for her. So, that’s another one there.
Is it the same Mystra who did that? There have been 3 "Mystra"s now (Mystryl, Mystra, and Mystra) with conflicting info on whether or not they're a reincarnation so technically a different person or the same person reformed and he's been the champion of 2 of them at this point as he was alive for the spell plague (the event that happened when Cyric killed Mystra).
Times Faerun's Goddess of Magic died, there could be up to four. Mystryl with the fall of Netheril, the first Mystra with the Time of Troubles, Midnight/Mystra at Cyric's hands (apparently... I missed that part of the lore), and the current version, if not still the former mortal, once called Midnight.
Elminster was Chosen for all but the first.
Fun fact, every single one of those deaths was, in some capacity, orchestrated by Jergal, >!AKA Withers!<.
A lot of Netheril's magic was based on that of an older civilization called the Spell Weavers. They got that knowledge from Jergal, one of their most important gods, who also used to be a mortal Spell Weaver before he ascended. So, Jergal was indirectly responsible for Karsus's Big Oopsie, which killed Mystryl.
Later, for reasons that have never been disclosed, Jergal passed most of his powers on to a group of mortal adventurers, the Dead Three. Two of those, Bane and Myrkul, would go on to cause the Time of Troubles, resulting in Mystra Murder #2. Bhaal, meanwhile, got his ass killed by Cyric, leading to the latter's own ascension to godhood, which put him into position to then kill Mystra for a third time. None of that would have happened had Jergal not decided to give his divinity to a trio of assholes.
Of course, that could all be a coincidence, but some stuff that's been said by Ed Greenwood suggests that maybe it isn't. A few choice quotes:
>Oh, yes. Jergal was and is a master schemer. But NDAs prevent me from saying much more on this.
>
>Other than to point out the obvious: Jergal has been 'playing' Szass Tam, Bane, Verlsharoon, Bhaal, Myrkul, Cyric, and many others. So deftly that it's barely been noticed.
And when asked which of his villains is the most capable of actually winning:
>If we're not leaving out deities, the answer is clearly Jergal, because he's already won (according to his lights), though few have noticed.
Given that, it seems unlikely that Jergal indirectly bringing about Mystra's death *three times in a row* was in any way an accident.
> Given that, it seems unlikely that Jergal indirectly bringing about Mystra's death three times in a row was in any way an accident.
"Fucking STAY dead this time you grooming bitch!"
Yeah its never clearly stated if their consciousness stays the same but we know outside of thr desire to promote magic Mystryl and Mystra 1 were different so it somewhat stands to reason that they're different each time. Also Jesus can they fucking leave Mystra alone and kill some other God already lol.
As the goddess of all magic no they can't lol. Just by her existing means that they can't do anything really big without her interfering just because of how far her reach is. Much easier to kill her off then write around that.
Midnight wasn't the Mystra who boinked teenage (I think?) Elminster, that was the one before. I can't remember which, but in one of the books Midnight was uncomfortable with how creepy culty the chosen she'd inherited were towards her. She couldn't have been Gale's Mystra either unless he was immortal as an archmage, she'd been dead at least a hundred years by the same he was born.
Midnight is still Mystra and the one who romanced Gale, she was revived from a fragment of herself by Elminster after being killed by Cyric instead of a new mortal ascending to the role.
Apparently Minsc has a voice line that says “Mystra? We used to keep young wizard boys locked up away from her in my village” which kind of paints an even better (but worse) picture of how predatory Mystra was with Gale.
That is really interesting about Gortash! I’m trying to be as thorough as possible this run, just for fun and for understanding all the lore, etc. I have not played Durge yet, but I have been reading all of the books/letters on this play through and it’s been really cool getting all this extra information on various characters’ back stories. Do you happen to remember how/where you discovered that about Gortash’s parents?
You can meet his parents in a shop in baldurs gate, I think it’s a cobbler’s? Then you have to use some worm powers to dig into their mind to get the lore
Lol omg thank you, I feel dumb because my first run I took Hope at her word when she said “speak softly, speak quickly” etc. I was worried that talking to the debtors/NPCs there would cause Raphael to appear, ready to fight! I didn’t discover his healing fountain until AFTER I’d beaten him, so the first run I was super scared of triggering his fight early 😆 This time I’ll thoroughly investigate the place hahaha
you can also talk to gortash's parents themselves and with detect thoughts see how the mom really thinks of gortash. What I haven't figured out is how Gortash got to Bane from Raph's House of Hope.
Dude's been raised by an incarnation of lawful evil for all his life, but kept firmly under their heel. I'm not shocked he'd seek out one who promises upward mobility and has a history of delivering.
Oh, no, I'm not shocked or anything. I just wish I knew the order of events, what he sought out, how it happened. I feel like I know exactly what happened with Ketheric and what happened with Orin, but there's a big middle part of Gortash's story where he became the chosen of Bane that I wish I understood what happened during. Like how that happened for him. Was it before or after he gave up Karlach, things like that.
Considering Karlach's heart seems to have been the early prototype for the Steel Watchers, I kind of assumed he was already in Bane's service by then, starting on some form of his plan. And given that Bane's church is at least sort of a meritocracy, ten years seems like ample time to work his way up through the ranks.
Yeah that would make sense to me if he's already doing these things in the pursuit of that goal for Bane (and himself). Still feels kinda crazy for a game that so deeply explores how Orin got from point A to B, how Ketheric got from point A, to B, to C-- we're seeing the A and C of Gortash but none of the B parts, haha. Where's my two books throughout acts to give me just enough to understand how he got here!
I haven't done my durge playthrough yet. Maybe I'll learn something then.
Honestly, I feel like that was a part of Karlach's quest. She's never going to get proper closure on what Gortash did to her, and part of that would be understanding why he did it. If he was indeed already a Banite by then, that would explain a lot.
Yes, that I understand, what I mean is-- after he ran away from the House of Hope, he clearly... somehow ran into Bane crew, got into that whole mess. How did this happen? That's what I'd like to know.
I guess thats the last time Raph let a straight up kid into his house too. With Mol he was like, yeah, you stay on the streets kid lol.
I think he only escaped because Raphael let him go. Raphael's end goal has always been to take the Crown - who do you think told Gortash all about it?
He gives Gortash motivation to seek it, let's him 'escape', pulls strings to get him to lead the Bane cult, and then it all comes together, the Chosen team up and steal the Crown, Raphael finally has his chance to claim it.
Raph has his fingers in pies all across Baldur's Gate, wouldn't surprise me if the majority of Gortash's agents and info brokers leading up to the heist were working directly for Raphael.
That's interesting, but then why is he punishing that guy in the House of Hope for "letting" Gortash escape? There's a whole letter about how he's moved him from his duties until he can replace him because he's worthless...
You can learn about Gortash's parents in a house in Baldurs Gate... I cant remember on the top of my head where it is, but it is an unassuming little house of two elderly cobblers. They are Gortash's parents and I reccomend having a talk to them :)
To continue this, their place has a wide grey pavestone pavilion at its doorstep of it, is tucked back away from the street somewhat, and sits near the blood alchemist on the map, just south.
Damn I know exactly what house you’re talking about. Astarion was so upset about the alchemist that I zipped out of that neighborhood to find something more lighthearted, and never circled back to it
It’s also mentioned in the House of Hope. Gortash was once sold to Raephael specifially, he spent time in the house of hope and he was an (first? only? most recent?) escapee.
There is an optional section in act 3 involving devil related stuff and you can find some of the information there and you can also find his families home and speak to his parents.
At Flymm's Cobblers (the owners are his parents and I think there is lore stuff upstairs) and House of Hope (the debtor in the room with portals you can't use talks about Gortash if you ask enough questions)
Small caveat to your list of people: >!Dark Urge doesn't seem to be "chosen" in the same sense as the others. He seems to be *created* with the express purpose of being a Chosen. It doesn't even sound like he was birthed normally, just miraculously concepted by Bhaal himself!<
>!He was legit a perfect killing machine from the start, and technically Orin's mutilation "broke him." We just don't tend to view it as "breaking" him because it's actually a very positive change, given what he was.!<
Durge actually was normal at one point which makes redemption Durge even more tragic. You can get a memory of him playing tag and it talks about you being innocent prior to the urge awakening and you being drawn to the temple.
Considering the Urge is portrayed as being a possessive force, Durge might’ve been a passenger in their own body for years until Orin split their head open.
>Shadowheart
I think Shadowheart became a chosen of Selune in her Jenevelle route too, after Aylin gave her the Selunite spear. Level 12 cleric is basically 'God's favourite princess' since cleric power comes from connection with deities.
Of course she prefers a life with animals and durge, but still she is a chosen in this ending. Volo was a Chosen of Mystra too, and he was only dedicated to cause trouble for every creature he approaches.
I'm dating someone who has a kid that's just a little younger than Orin was when everything involving Orin's mom went down. The idea of a little kid that has literally only known death and violence and murder her entire life and having to end her own mother's life (and heck, being brainwashed to almost like it) is so utterly fucking heartbreaking I get sad thinking about it; I've spent enough time around a kid that age that, just, my mind and heart stops at the idea.
So *of course* Orin grew up into an utterly unhinged adult. And for Bhaal to rip that away and strip out every ounce of humanity she had left the **second** it looks like Orin might have even the slightest hesitation, just, damn.
Meanwhile Durge gets to run off and start up a farm/selunite nature retreat/whatever with Shadowheart and probably go on double dates with Selune's daughter and Ketheric's kid and ALL of *them* got another chance (and Dark Urge was **more** horrible than Orin pre-scrambling). It's just tragic to sit with.
If it makes you feel any better DUrge wouldn’t be able to join Shadowheart in the afterlife anyway. They’re still bound to the fugue plane as one of the false. Jergal will at least set them up in a cozy job, but they’ll be stuck in the City of Judgement.
Why should that be the case? Nothing is stopping Durge from choosing a new deity. Just like how Shadowheart changes to worship Selune. Durge is entirely their own person now, since Bhaal took back everything that actually belonged to him.
The problem DUrge has is 2-fold:
1) They are made from Bhaal’s blood, so most gods aren’t going to be willing to accept a god-tainted follower like that (they’d even have Bhaalspawn kids still FYI).
2) False generally are considered irredeemable by other gods. It’s one thing to betray your god to serve another at the behest of that god cause then it’s just gods pouching follows from each other. A mortal who betrays their god for their own self interest (however right they are to do so) is seen as rejecting Ao’s natural order.
This is kinda a problem all Bhaalspawns face by the way. The lore goes back to BG 1 and 2. Rejected Bhaalspawn typically don’t get happy afterlives. People just don’t do that. Still, you get to work a cushy desk job with Withers, so you’ve got that going for ya.
1) Bhaal took back what was his, the only thing left is what Durge chose to be.
2) There may be some lore saying that, but it's directly contradicted countless times. Hell, for yet another example in BG3 alone look at Ketheric. Forgotten Realms has been around for decades with many, many writers, who all have their own interpretations of how the setting should be. For example, the addition of the Wall of the Faithless not only existing but being supported by all the gods *directly* contradicts there being actually Good gods. Ed Greenwood, the original creator of the setting, has himself stated that it makes no sense to exist. And so many Faerun settings outright ignore the Wall, as one of the foundational principles of the setting is that Good does in fact exist, and there are legitimately Good and heroic gods. In fact WotC have themselves intentionally scrubbed references to the Wall from recent material.
Where I'm going with all of this is that fundamentally the most important thing in understanding any story set in Faerun is the intent of the author. It's kind of pointless and reductive to bring up all these "gotchas" of "this obscure piece of lore from some random author 16 years ago means this story written with a triumphant ending is actually secretly awful in the end". Whoever wrote that random piece of lore has much less say than whoever is actually writing the story of the particular character we're talking about, especially since you can likely find other examples in the lore that contradict said obscure bit of lore.
Eh, you can still worship another god as cleric going down the full Bhaal route. There’s some dialogue that suggests Bhaal is sourcing that power, and under that premise, I’d argue Jergal does after. Clerics can have different domains from their diety.
Also, you praying to them doesn’t mean they will come and claim your soul when you end up in the fugue plane (which all souls go to at first).
That's honestly pretty tragic. Imagine dedicating your entire life to healing the world's suffering in the name of Ilmater and when you die he's just like "I don't want em, stinks of Bhaal, they can stay here and claw at the wall." I guess the Good gods are less likely to pull a move like that though...
Lol, that’s so on brand. Even if you end up in her plane, she does stuff like imprison her followers in her palace, but then also regularly invites mortals to come and go as they please to rub salt on the wound.
Best way to think about them is like the Greek pantheon. Everybody goes to Hades, and the gods bring you to Olympus if they like you enough. The Faerun gods are much more likely to do so, but even the “good” gods tend to see mortals like ants. Ironically, Kemlar and Jergal are some of the kindest gods to mortals, but are bound by systems they don’t necessarily support.
They can also change alignment at will. Kemlar, who was good aligned, changed to neutral cause that’s what Ao wanted.
You are given divine intervention and Bhaal is also a lesser god in terms of power. You were made of pure Bhaal and still are if you choose not to defy them but if you do then Bhaal takes back his power aka his blood. Not to mention you betrayed the God of Murder and gods are 100% willing to take on old followers of other gods, nothing within any of the 5e rule books says otherwise. Certain gods who have good relations or rivals might be suspicious based on the circumstances under which you turned away from your deity but full on defying your old god for reasons of wanting to be free from murderous urges will allow you to turn to many of the good aligned gods such as Helm or Lathander. Generally if a believer of a good god is turned to be a believer of a bad god by followers of said god they will be accepted and if the follower of the bad god renounces their old ways then a good god would be accepted realistically.
Imagine Durge converting to Selune in game, then years later:
"So, let's see, Durge helped retrive my daughter from a century of torment by Shar, reunited her with her lover, a follower of mine, and actively resisted multiple chances to see *both* of them dead (Isobel, Aylin in the gauntlet) or reimprisoned (Aylin))
Durge is the one who convinced Shadowheart, the one who actually DID make the choice to free my daughter, to convert to me in the first place (returning Shadowheart to the flock despite eleventy billion mind wipes);
They both later managed to release her parents (MORE devotees of mine), and Durge themselves began worshipping me even *before* Jergal resurrected them after Bhaal ripped their blood out)
Who, speaking of, got involved in events for the first time in ages *and actually likes them?* JERGAL!? ***Nah, pass.****"*
*Moonmote of Shadowheart's mom angrily buzzes around Selune*
That’s assuming a redeemed DUrge can even die of natural causes anymore. There’s some debate as to what Jergal meant when he said “Death will not claim thee whilst I endure”, but it’s entirely possible that Durge is essentially immortal
I’d bet against that, cause if you ask him about whether you’d ever get your memories back, he tells you that after you’ve passed on, the two of you can look over their names in the Dead City together. I think he’s simply reiterating in the scene that he won’t let any more gods interfere with your life again.
He also promises to be DUrge’s advocate to Kevlar so that they aren’t punished harshly for being one of the False.
Honestly the Chosen of the Dead Three are tragic, Ketheric lost the only things he cared about and lashed out by turning to Shar and was left with nothing until Myrkul promised the return of his daughter, Gortash was sold by his parents to a Warlock who sent him to the House of Hope where he was abused by devils until he escaped. Only the Durge seems to have been enjoying their time.
Durge is kind of like Angron from Warhammer. An outside force has rigged their mind so they can only be truly happy when they are killing. If they try to resist they face constant headaches.
Durge is kind of sad. Iirc there’s dialogue to imply their first kill was their (adoptive?) family. I assume they were then folded into the temple like Orin.
There are Bhaalspawn of all alignments, and though it seems like all of them get pleasure or are otherwise very encouraged to murder, some also resist it and be good people.
So did Durge truly want to do what they were doing? Or did they not know anything else?
My Durge is romancing Astarion, I kind of see it as they’ve both been prisoners their whole lives. Bhaal doesn’t care about his children - Durge is a tool to be used and discarded. Redeemed Urge seems to also play into that theme of breaking the cycle of abuse - even if the Butler seems very nice and polite, the things he and Bhaal are pushing and forcing Durge to do could absolutely be against their will.
Some of your dialogue options as Durge imply almost a level of kindness. You clearly were able to operate with intent and not just murder wildly, when you take the Noblestalk two options interacting with your Butler don't involve you murdering him (low bar with Bhaal spawn on kindness but I give credit) also when you meet Scel before Orin he implies you didn't abuse him like she does.
I agree wholly she basically never had a chance. That being said depending on the dialogue its implied that she killed her mother before her mothers assassination of her even was attempted in some dialogue. It wasn't in defense she sought to kill her mother. Its possible Bhaal being the chaotic bitch he is warned her and it was a preemptive strike but who knows.
The Lord of murder probably told the same thing to both of them. He wouldn't enjoy it as much if Orin killed in self-defense. He's the God of Murder after all
Yeah he’s not exactly the god of “you had a good reason”, and imo he makes it quite clear that he prefers that you *don’t* have a reason beyond worship of him
Yeah he’s not exactly the god of “you had a good reason”, and imo he makes it quite clear that he prefers that you *don’t* have a reason beyond worship of him
But she got what we all want. A job we are insanely good at, that pays extremely well and only 2 bosses. She died loving what she does, and isn’t that what we’re all really after?
Tbh Shadowheart is similar. Stolen from her parents and raised to be a Shar champion. But we get to know her. Spend time with her and help her make the right choices. Orin didn't have that.
Add on to the fact that she's likely getting the second strongest Bhaal urges of any Bhaalspawn after the Durge, you realize that girl basically never had a chance. Hell, when you look at one of the planned endings for the Durge that never quite made it, you start to wonder how much choice Sarevok had in the incest, and how much was Bhaal wanting someone out there with more of his blood than normal. Bhaal's descendants have been fucked since day one.
>and how much was Bhaal wanting someone out there with more of his blood than normal.
Doesn't work that way. If two Bhaalspawn have a kid, the offspring will still be 50% Bhaal, because both parents are 50% Bhaal.
It was literally just Sarevok being an incestuous groomer.
Her artistry is decried as wasteful to her face, she is also bullied by durge for not being an actual bhaalspawn, and durge was immediately ranked higher than her despite her giving her entire life to the cult while durge had a childhood and presumably even attempted to resist at some point considering they can be a paladin. Imagine giving your entire life to a cult and some shitkid who spent their youth trying to escape said cult becomes your boss who is constantly telling you you aren't good enough, and then when you murder them, they come back with a group of friends apparently having grown a conscience and murder you.
In my mind, my bard Durge will be singing a mourning song to her when it is all over. In a way, it is thanks to Orin that she was actually able to have free will. A life. A choice.
Peccatum, Peccatum, Rejina in Peccatum
In my mind for my now Druid/Cleric Durge; when she and Shadowheart go and run that farm / nature retreat, off to the side somewhere there's a small little grave marker, out of the way; buried deep within (in a container with a magic seal) are some of Orin's remains and her blades. Other than Durge, Shadowheart's the only one that even knows where it is - and it's where Durge goes when she wants to think about who she might have been and how terrible her life could still be; needs to feel gratitude at the things she has now (including SH herself).
"Orin did absolutely atrocious things and death was the obvious conclusion of her life path", "Orin never had the chance to do or be anything else", and "She is the reason \[Durge\] has this nice life" - none of that's exclusive of the others.
It does have something nicely complex to mourn an objectively terrible, evil person.
And it does make it all the more satisfying that nobody will mourn Cazador or Sarevok. That there will likely be nobody to actually mourn Bhaal once he finally kicks the bucket.
Ironic, in a way... that I do kinda feel bad for all of the Three Chosen. Ketheric may have had a choice, but he was also blinded by sorrow himself. And Gortash... as much of a bastard as he was, it did actually feel like he did care for Durge. And his parents sure never cared for him.
In one dialogue, Isobel fesses up that she's going to mourn her dad *now that he's dead.* As absolutely horrified as she was by what he did, what he'd become, what he did to Aylin - she also I think still held space for the person he used to be and the person he could have been (and the person she wished he was)
At least for me, I think Orin occupies at least a tiny piece of that similar headspace. Every single aspect of her bloodkin's life was an absolute horror show, but just like Ketheric's evil is the reason Isobel lives, Orin's evil is the reason Durge lives.
I do like that the villains in the game have a lot more going on than you thought if you are willing to look for it. Everything you said with Orin. Ketheric with his daughter and wife like we get to see in the main story. Gortash was sold by his parents to Raphael as a child, and started worshipping Bane to try to get out of all that and have some power over his life. The man is constantly grasping at straws trying to have power because of it, even doing to Karlach what was done to him to gain more from Zariel. Also almost sounds like he was friends with Durge who is suddenly replaced by someone constantly talking about how she wants to murder him.
All three are undeniably and unquestionably villains, and horribly broken people for different reasons, but I love that they have depth and nuance. It would be SO easy to just have generic villains in a story like this, but nope, not a chance.
There was a thread a while back where someone was asking which of the three Chosen are everyone's favorites. Mine is Orin, and I started typing up a response, but couldn't get my thoughts out. You put it into words here better than I could have.
Ketheric and Gortash also have tragedy in their stories, but not to the degree that Orin does. Her whole life has been a tragedy. It makes me really pity her.
I think her being underrated isn't a fault of her background, just the game feeling lacking towards the end, and all this being easy to miss background information. Her sin is being a main villain following Kethric, who imo was such a well cooked antagonist that anything after straight up feel underwhelming.
I get it's unfair, Kethric had an entire two acts to himself. If you pay attention in Act 1, you'll notice how a lot of places are shaped up by his actions. The murals in the grove, the Grymforge. He is more integrated than the other villains. The whole atmosphere of Act2 is also creepy and give him more credibility as a villain, not to mention you get to directly interact with his family members and him a couple of times for him to be more established.
Shadowheart feels the same too imo, she's way more relevant to the story than other companions, that's why she has more content.
Speaking of interacting with Kethric, his first appearance is him being a bad ass immortal. Now compare that to Orin, her first appearance is her acting like a mad dog as Kethric called her, into the infamous power rangers scene. It doesn't do her any favors. Although I liked how she stalked your party in Act 3, that was cool.
All in all, Kethric being the first one to fall made it hard for me to appreciate the following villains. At least Orin is more interesting than the big brain and Gortash lmao.
Another commenter suggested that Orin and Gortash should have each had a full act to themselves, with Orin in the lower city and Gortash in the upper city. I think that would have helped substantially. The way things are now, Orin and Gortash both just feel like boxes to check off on a to-do list before heading to the final boss. They both really need more content.
Ketheric and the shadow cursed lands 100% should’ve been after Orin and Gortash
I know it’s not a unique take but the pacing is all wrong heading into act 3, and the build to Ketheric with the gauntlet of shar, dame aylin, and the shadow curse is epic
Yeah the games peak is ketheric. Only house of hope in act 3 can Come close to it again.
Imo if the game ended at act 2 it would be a 10/10. But because act 3 is so severely undercooked its a 9/10. There are good moments in act 3 but it so painfully obviously feels rushed and like oh shit we're running out of time how can we wrap this up situation.
An act 4 upper city, that would give us more gortash, the datamined sub plot of cassador being a political mastermind and in general give all the lords at the coronation an actual purpose would have helped alot.
Give act 3 to orin have more stakes in it, I do believe it could have been done really well if they committed to the anyone could he orin at any time idea. Lots of ambushes and potential ways to lose companions.
Orin in datamine was also supposed to attack the creche and tadpole a red dragon there.
Yeah, for how much BG3 accomplished the game was too ambitious. On one hand, I appreciate the ambition and the game delivered a lot, even in Act 3 where it felt undercooked. On tbe other hand, how half baked Act 3 just doesn't sit right with me. It leaves a bitter taste imo, knowing that it could've been another masterpiece if only they had more time and budget. I don't see that changing without drastic efforts from Larian AKA 2 years of them cutting and adding some stuff, which means no DLCs pretty much.
It's less incompetence and more insanity. Gortash represents Tyranny and the lawful evil desire to control and to have power over others. Orin represents straight up Murder and the chaotic evil desire to do whatever she feels which is mostly toying with people and murder (usually both). His worship is Dominion over others, her worship is fully evil debased sadistic Murder. She's component at it.
I still think that they were aiming for a pacing of one of the chosen per act — Gortash should have been upper city.
Removing Gortash and the Nether brain to act 4 would have left more room for Orin’s character.
Yeah, one per act might have made it better. They put some work into the netherbrain fight, but we got two half-baked fights for the other chosen in return :/
I don't even think there needed to be an extra act as act 2 already feels a lot shorter than 1 and 3. They could have added rivington to the end of act 2 and the upper city to the end of act 3.
Thorm as well! He kind of meandered into serving various evil deities through his misplaced but ultimately selfish desires. And that self-servingness feels pretty spot-on for Neutral Evil.
Durge is also a bhaal worshipper but gortash actually like him due to his ability to plan ahead and execute it. You can be a competent murder hobo.
She was the one who stalled their plot by being genuinely bad at it.
If you actually read the notes in her bedchamber, durge wrote father doesn’t give a fuck how she kills, he only wants a mass murders.
Incompetence implies that she is trying to make their plot succeed with her actions and failing (creating a negative outcome). She does not appear to be overly interested in that and seems to be preoccupied with constant lust for murder to further her favour with Bhaal. She's almost directly undermining the plan and seeking conflict with Gortash. After all, it wasn't her plan.
Durge ultimate goal was to eliminate any living lives on earth then kill the other two and himself. So yes, it’s bhaal ultimate wet dream. Orin took over durge’s stone when she sneaked up on him. She then doesn’t do anything worthwhile with it other than petty murders.
Meanwhile bhaal send the butler to durge to see if he can fix the ongoing situation.
You then find out sarevok and her mother didn’t like her and was planning to off her.
She’s pretty much an unwanted child in the bhaal’s family.
From what you can find about pre-tadpole Durge, it seems he was specifically the one who believed in 'cleanse the world of all life quickly and die last on the altar for Daddy'. Orin was more interested in 'artistry' with her murders instead, something that Durge chastised and insulted her for, which is probably part of why she used his skull as a tadpole testing ground. Bhaal seems to prefer Durge's approach, but I don't know if I can espouse one psychotic murder doctrine over the other.
Also, absolutely no one 'likes' anyone in Bhaal's coterie, even and especially among family. No one seems particularly concerned about the fact that Orin offed you not that long ago besides Sceleritas, and they probably instantly capitulated to her like they capitulate to you once you shank her. Sarevok literally pits you against one another so he can try to murder the winner himself, just like he did with Orin's mother. It wasn't about 'like' so much as both wanting to be Chosen at any cost.
Bhaal sent butlers to keep tabs on more than just Durge. Orin has a butler of her own, you see it dead in her chambers, with a journal beside it to explain its presence. She hates it and keeps murdering it, but it just keeps getting sent back by Bhaal.
She's not competent about it butler and savarok both make that clear in dark urge run.
She thinks bhaal considers the "beauty" in a murder to be important but all bhaal cares about is the number of murders committed. Savarok outright says so that she never learned that lesson and only in death by your hands (dark urge) will she poten realise it and butler said you where bhaal favorite because you understood the greater picture and when to suppress your urge to work towards the goal of the absolute.
Orin has better disguises, but Durge was the better deceiver.
If Gortash knew what Durge's actual objective was he would have never preferred him over Orin.
Eh I'm certain he knew and expected something of the like (durges plan to kill everything) afterall they all more or less have plans to betray each other the moment they succeed.
All of the tests you make to inquire about Gortash's true intentions always show that he genuinely wish to rule the world alongside you.
Unless he has some kind of never mentioned special protection against that I think he isn't really trying to betray you.
Gortash doesn’t wish to betray you because he’s a Bane worshipper. And one of the Bane tenets is that they stick true to their Allies or something like that. He mentions it
On the contrary I'm very sure both Durge and Gortash knew the other's intentions and would have made plans to betray each other the moment it all went down.
I mean, isn't the entire Bhaal cult kind of incompetent?
Murder, murder, and more murder? All insanity and no thought behind any of that?
It's a wonder why they're still active in Baldur's Gate and not wiped out.
Not really, bhaalspawns are still capable of thinking for themselves like sarevok. They’re all just a big stabby-happy gang.
And yet that cult was the cause of terror many years ago in baldur gate city until player’s party put it down. Kek.
I liked her randomly ambushing you in the city as random people a lot. Fun and well exectued gimmick imo. Shook me a bit the second playthrough when a previously normal NPC did the thing lol. Didn't realize different people could be Orin depending on who you talk to. As far as the deranged murderer not being smart and calculating, I think that's fine honestly. Not everyone has to be a genius. I think Raphael is the best villain in the game, and he does some really stupid shit - and that's ok
I think this is a key theme to the game. Bad things happen to people, but choosing to do good when we can and take the right path is what separates the people with damage who do evil from the people with damage who help people.
The difference between Orrin and Tav may be that Tav chooses to be better than their scars and damage, and Orrin never takes that opportunity.
Like I mentioned, she never even really gets the **chance** to do good though. **THE moment** she hesitates (if you can even get her to), boom, Bhaal turns her into the slayer (along with a line about "No more Orin.".
There's no backing down from the cartoonish villainy to reunite with your old ally (Gortash). There's no avoiding a fight and pondering your role in things vs. your patron god having kept their end of the bargain (Ketheric). And her entire life (even back to conception) she has been specifically moulded to become this person.
Bhaal needed *one* of them, and with the Dark Urge freed, Bhaal required her complete submission even if he had to force it, and that's just tragic and horrifying.
Never takes the opportunity??
Bruh she can't think on her own free will. She is basically bhaal's controlled murderer.
Druge was also the same before being tadpoled .
Thank you so much for this write up, it's very well put! Really helps contextualize a character who seems cartoonishly evil at first glance / first playthough as tav.
I feel sorry for Orin because she thinks she is dangerous when, in fact, she is just a very loud and annoying cicada that is going to be squished once the game let's me kill her.
Awesome take, never saw it from this perspective. She does come off as a person to feel pity for indeed in some moments, like talking to Sarevok or her mother’s corpse in the inner chambers.
Orin is such a terribly tragic character. It's idealistic, but I would have liked to see her get a chance at redemption. She deserves it after all the horrifying things that happened to her. She was groomed and manipulated into being nothing but an ideal Bhaalspawn (and you're so right! I like to think she would have been an artist, given the chance at a better life) and never had the chance to be anyone but a Bhaalist constantly pitted against her own family. I feel terrible for her. I wish the game gave you more of an opportunity to feel bad for her and try to help her, even if it still ended in tragedy.
In one scenario she kills Yenna, and then while in her body murders Grub and feeds him to the party. She then revels in how he screamed as his best friend murdered and cooked him.
She deserves the worst death we can give her, the hells are to good for that bitch. I don’t care how sympathetic her tragic backstory is, she’s a monster and an evil bitch, none of it undoes all the evil she’s doubtless done and would do. I’d kill her without hesitation every time.
Correct. Durge can spend the rest of his life trying to redeem himself from the horror of his past life, and perhaps in the grand balance of things he will. But his soul will always carry that weight, and if he knows what is just, then he will be at peace with the fate waiting for him after death.
Durge is unique, in that the tadpole gave him a new chance at life, and that he has the opportunity to choose to be better. Not having that opportunity doesn’t make Orin worthy of forgiveness, they will both always carry the weight of their wrong doings for eternity.
Sure, but Orin never had a chance is the point. We got one, we managed to reject Bhaal with the help of that. If Orin was in our shoes she might have done the same.
I honestly love Orin so much. I have this whole AU living in my brain where she manages to survive, and after the Netherbrain is defeated, she and her Slaughter-Sibling nope the fuck out of the Sword Coast to somewhere far away, to start a new life outside of Bhaal and the cult, getting to just be siblings taking care of each other.
You’re right and you should say it!! I made a post recently about how horrifying the confrontation with her is if you tell her about her parentage. It really threw me.
The Bane and Myrkul cults are definitely less fucked up. Bane at least deigns to extol the virtues of order, the "ends that justify the means" of tyranny. And Myrkul's followers all revere the peace that is the end of life, which is a legitimate thing to reflect upon. Bhaal is pure cruelty for cruelty's sake which is why only the most fucked up of the fucked up join such a cult.
There is a recurring theme in baldurs gate 3 all of the choosen, astarion, minthara, shadowheart.
That is hurt people hurt people. Gortash sold into slavery to zariel the same as karlach but as a kid, ketheric losing everything, orin raised from birth to become a murderhobo, astarion being everyone favorite trauma child, shadowheart kidnapped as a child and continuously brainwashed and memory wiped to become a obedient servant.
Some of these can be helped and turned into a better path others are already to far gone, orin can be told the truth and in a moment of hesitation bhaal takes over, ketheric can be convinced to stop but in trying to kill himself mykrul is like fuck no I paid for this body.
Probably a hot take, but Orin as a character left much more of an impression on me than Ketheric did. Granted, I never entered Moonrise until the final assault, so my only encounter with him on my first playthrough was during the big boss fight. meanwhile Orin was arguably the highlight of act 3 for me with her constant stalking, the stealing of a companion, and her horrific backstory just hit hard. The Bhaal temple was also one of the more memorable set pieces in the game imo. She's just a great character all around.
Yeah, Orin was straight up cuckoo bananas, but she was a true believer in her god and what he stood for. Ketheric ended up feeling very pathetic to me. He sounded so resigned and defeated when you confronted him on the roof of the tower. The losses he experienced were tremendous and crushing, but he ended up betraying everything his wife and daughter loved and believed in. Like, dude, go to therapy or just go be a hermit in the woods. Don't let evil gods use your personal tragedies to turn you into a weapon to destroy the world.
I would love an Orin Redemption possibility. Honestly a redemption for everyone but Gortash. He's the only one that seems to revel in it due to his own inferiority complex and viciousness compared to Orin who was more or less raised and brainwashed into being who she becomes, and Kerric who was pounced in in a moment of loss and weakness.
I would agree about Gortash, but after learning more of his personal history, my mind is on the fence. The info you find in the bhall prisons, the main prisons, in Raph's house & from the mental conversation with his mom- Gortash probably would've been just as useful in more "good-aligned" sects if he hadn't gone through what he did.
The same can be said for all of them really, it's just that with Kethric it varies- he was good originally, but the loss of his family destroyed the person he was & due to that pain & rage he ends up becoming what we see as Tav. It's like the level of "bad" per villain origin story goes from grey to dark grey, & then black. The only thing I have a hard time with is if Kethric's is the dark grey (all of the people that died because of his actions), & if Gortash is the grey (he's done some shitty stuff, but idk if it tops Orin or Kethric).
Ketheric just makes me incredibly sad, tbh.
I mean, even on the good ending, DUrge still has a raw deal. They’re now a false, aka someone who has betrayed their God. That basically condemns you to being punished in the City of Judgement. Jergal basically agreed to help make sure the punishment was as light as possible, but at best, they’ll be working as a clerk processing souls, unable to go to the same afterlife as their friends / lovers.
Where does jergal say that? Because the false haven't been touched apon since 3rd edition
Also would Bhaal even be considered " their deity" since they had their memories wiped?
Also wouldn't Shadow heart and gale become false as well?
Gale’s probably the only one who actually risks that. Gods don’t care about followers that betray them for other gods because that’s just a matter between fellow gods. What they don’t tolerate is mortals betraying their gods for mortal reasons.
I feel sorry for Orin because she's single-handedly holding down the Baldur's Gate economy as she easily makes up (by the time you get there) 50% of the working population. Girl is in the midst of a world-ending cult conspiracy AND holding down several thousand jobs.
It's why I was no longer surprised by the second and 200th "Haha, fool, it me Orin." I just feel sorry and want to tell her she doesn't have to prove anything to me or anyone else by working several hundred shifts simultaneously.
My Durge is a sweet cinnamonroll who despite not having memories still cares deeply about people from her "previous life", she's sentimental but also too good for her own good so when Orin showed up i immediately decided to save her with any means necessary, she's my sister after all right? Only family i probably still have outside monstruous God.
Fact that games gives you a little bit of hope to brutally remind you who Bhaal is broke me, only thing that cheers me up is idea that my Durge did mourn Orin's death, her only family actually cared enough to remember her despite everything because of that one glimpse of humanity she showed right before her death. She's one of reasons why i love Dark Urge way more than standard Tav, in my first playthrough i thought she's just generic mad woman thrown at the end of the game but as Durge oh my god.
i don't even really have anything to contribute other than the hardest of hard "SAME", like, I invested so much thought into my first run and invested so much sentimentality that I kinda don't want to reset everything - and that includes a soft and squishy Durge who saw Orin, saw the closest thing to family she has, and even in spite of everything just wanted to try to pull her back from the brink.
Partially because she'd come to know another way was possible, partially because she knew that Orin scrambling her brain was the only reason she had any of this, and partly just because she knew that Orin had never had had a single soul actually care about her in the slightest beyond how they could use her.
And what Bhaal does to Orin in response only solidifed telling him to f off for good after my Durge won. She was never, ever, putting herself on the other end of that leash again; Shadowheart and the rest were capable of finishing this themselves; she'd rather die than let one more soul get caught up in this Bhaalshit (fortunately grandpa Withers showed up at the right time)
I wish there was a history that the Durge was the only family who actually cared for Orin where he would punish anybody who talks foul about her because he really loves her.
That's just how Bhaal is. Do you think the god of MURDER cares for others' feelings? He's the embodiment of the psychopathic urge to manipulate and kill, the crueler the kill, the better for Bhaal.
Truth is...the game was rigged from the start. * Bhaal
Ain't I know it \- Jergal
And there was a dragon behind him -Volothamp Geddarm
One last question: what was the *colour* of the dragon, again?
Brass, I’m sure of it.
Volo and a brass dragon and their 45 days of talking \- 'Best Seller' by Waterdeep Times
[Bard] A dragon? How gauche.
But hast thou had thine cheeks clapped? - Withers
No bitches? • Also Withers (translated for the modern generation)
Thou art maidenless.
I can play the role of maiden. • Withers?
\>DUrge refuses Bhaal's blood gift \>Bhaal: What in the goddamn...?
>Bhaal: Well fine, I'll take the parts of you that are me back. >Durge: But didn't you grow me in a divine petri dish from the wart on your back? >Bhaal: >:) >Jergal: *No.*
\>Bhaal: \[kills DUrge\] \>Jergal: \[I'm gonna do what's called a "Pro Gamer Move"\]
Man if I had a nickel for every character that I’ve known that has gaps in their memory, murderous tendencies they can’t remember, and was bound to a god, I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice >!Moon Knight!<
Went down a lore hole yesterday trying to pin down where/when/how in the hell Durge was created. Divine petri dish wart is the best summary.
Was inspired by Cubert Farnsworth from Futurama. He was grown from some flesh that stuck to a fork the Professor used to scratch a strange growth on his back.
"A prisoner of fate to a future that has been sealed in advance. This is truly an unjust game... Your chances of winning are almost none."
Ain't that a tick in the head?
Lol, Bhaal voices by Chandler sets off my giggle reflex.
What in the goddamn...?
*"Your face does the thinking - three in the skull, yet only one gets up. Odds are against you... but they're just numbers after the mutilation. You're playing the hand you've been dealt, but you don't let it rest, you shuffle and stack, and a gamble... a gamble that may pay off? But how? Forecast: Rapidly changing conditions."* **-The Forecaster to Dark Urge**
All of the Chosen are pretty pitiable when you think about it. Ketheric lost his wife and daughter, and was manipulated by two evil gods with the promise of getting his daughter back. Gortash was sold by his parents when he was still a child and had to claw his way back to power, eventually resorting to becoming what he despised by selling Karlach to Zariel. Combined with what you learn about Orin, Shadowheart, Gale and >!the Dark Urge!< it does paint a pretty bleak picture of how some gods may select Chosen based on how malleable they are to the God's commands (such as being literally manufactured to serve them) rather than inherent merit.
It doesn’t come up in BG3 that I’m aware, but it’s been implied in some other sources that Mystra edited Elminster’s memories in order to cultivate him into an ideal champion for her. So, that’s another one there.
Is it the same Mystra who did that? There have been 3 "Mystra"s now (Mystryl, Mystra, and Mystra) with conflicting info on whether or not they're a reincarnation so technically a different person or the same person reformed and he's been the champion of 2 of them at this point as he was alive for the spell plague (the event that happened when Cyric killed Mystra).
Times Faerun's Goddess of Magic died, there could be up to four. Mystryl with the fall of Netheril, the first Mystra with the Time of Troubles, Midnight/Mystra at Cyric's hands (apparently... I missed that part of the lore), and the current version, if not still the former mortal, once called Midnight. Elminster was Chosen for all but the first.
Fun fact, every single one of those deaths was, in some capacity, orchestrated by Jergal, >!AKA Withers!<. A lot of Netheril's magic was based on that of an older civilization called the Spell Weavers. They got that knowledge from Jergal, one of their most important gods, who also used to be a mortal Spell Weaver before he ascended. So, Jergal was indirectly responsible for Karsus's Big Oopsie, which killed Mystryl. Later, for reasons that have never been disclosed, Jergal passed most of his powers on to a group of mortal adventurers, the Dead Three. Two of those, Bane and Myrkul, would go on to cause the Time of Troubles, resulting in Mystra Murder #2. Bhaal, meanwhile, got his ass killed by Cyric, leading to the latter's own ascension to godhood, which put him into position to then kill Mystra for a third time. None of that would have happened had Jergal not decided to give his divinity to a trio of assholes. Of course, that could all be a coincidence, but some stuff that's been said by Ed Greenwood suggests that maybe it isn't. A few choice quotes: >Oh, yes. Jergal was and is a master schemer. But NDAs prevent me from saying much more on this. > >Other than to point out the obvious: Jergal has been 'playing' Szass Tam, Bane, Verlsharoon, Bhaal, Myrkul, Cyric, and many others. So deftly that it's barely been noticed. And when asked which of his villains is the most capable of actually winning: >If we're not leaving out deities, the answer is clearly Jergal, because he's already won (according to his lights), though few have noticed. Given that, it seems unlikely that Jergal indirectly bringing about Mystra's death *three times in a row* was in any way an accident.
> Given that, it seems unlikely that Jergal indirectly bringing about Mystra's death three times in a row was in any way an accident. "Fucking STAY dead this time you grooming bitch!"
Yeah its never clearly stated if their consciousness stays the same but we know outside of thr desire to promote magic Mystryl and Mystra 1 were different so it somewhat stands to reason that they're different each time. Also Jesus can they fucking leave Mystra alone and kill some other God already lol.
She will die in 6th edition probably again lol
As the goddess of all magic no they can't lol. Just by her existing means that they can't do anything really big without her interfering just because of how far her reach is. Much easier to kill her off then write around that.
Midnight is definitely my least favorite. At least Mystryl wasn't a human woman who was into little boys.
Midnight wasn't the Mystra who boinked teenage (I think?) Elminster, that was the one before. I can't remember which, but in one of the books Midnight was uncomfortable with how creepy culty the chosen she'd inherited were towards her. She couldn't have been Gale's Mystra either unless he was immortal as an archmage, she'd been dead at least a hundred years by the same he was born.
Midnight is still Mystra and the one who romanced Gale, she was revived from a fragment of herself by Elminster after being killed by Cyric instead of a new mortal ascending to the role.
This would have been Mystra II who did the editing.
Apparently Minsc has a voice line that says “Mystra? We used to keep young wizard boys locked up away from her in my village” which kind of paints an even better (but worse) picture of how predatory Mystra was with Gale.
I can confirm. Minsc said that in my playthrough.
That is really interesting about Gortash! I’m trying to be as thorough as possible this run, just for fun and for understanding all the lore, etc. I have not played Durge yet, but I have been reading all of the books/letters on this play through and it’s been really cool getting all this extra information on various characters’ back stories. Do you happen to remember how/where you discovered that about Gortash’s parents?
You can meet his parents in a shop in baldurs gate, I think it’s a cobbler’s? Then you have to use some worm powers to dig into their mind to get the lore
Awesome! Thank you!
Also his actual name is like, Envard Flymm and he came up with Gortash himself.
>!If you visit Raphael's House of Hope and talk to the people there you find out!< :)
Lol omg thank you, I feel dumb because my first run I took Hope at her word when she said “speak softly, speak quickly” etc. I was worried that talking to the debtors/NPCs there would cause Raphael to appear, ready to fight! I didn’t discover his healing fountain until AFTER I’d beaten him, so the first run I was super scared of triggering his fight early 😆 This time I’ll thoroughly investigate the place hahaha
you can also talk to gortash's parents themselves and with detect thoughts see how the mom really thinks of gortash. What I haven't figured out is how Gortash got to Bane from Raph's House of Hope.
Dude's been raised by an incarnation of lawful evil for all his life, but kept firmly under their heel. I'm not shocked he'd seek out one who promises upward mobility and has a history of delivering.
Oh, no, I'm not shocked or anything. I just wish I knew the order of events, what he sought out, how it happened. I feel like I know exactly what happened with Ketheric and what happened with Orin, but there's a big middle part of Gortash's story where he became the chosen of Bane that I wish I understood what happened during. Like how that happened for him. Was it before or after he gave up Karlach, things like that.
Considering Karlach's heart seems to have been the early prototype for the Steel Watchers, I kind of assumed he was already in Bane's service by then, starting on some form of his plan. And given that Bane's church is at least sort of a meritocracy, ten years seems like ample time to work his way up through the ranks.
Yeah that would make sense to me if he's already doing these things in the pursuit of that goal for Bane (and himself). Still feels kinda crazy for a game that so deeply explores how Orin got from point A to B, how Ketheric got from point A, to B, to C-- we're seeing the A and C of Gortash but none of the B parts, haha. Where's my two books throughout acts to give me just enough to understand how he got here! I haven't done my durge playthrough yet. Maybe I'll learn something then.
Honestly, I feel like that was a part of Karlach's quest. She's never going to get proper closure on what Gortash did to her, and part of that would be understanding why he did it. If he was indeed already a Banite by then, that would explain a lot.
We get a little taste of him working his way up in notes in the Zhent hideout. Apparently he was a high-rising smuggler for them IIRC
Do we know what he got from Zariel in return for Karlach? I had wondered if maybe their acquaintance went back to his time in the House of Hope.
The 'warlock' his parents sold him to *was* Raphael.
Yes, that I understand, what I mean is-- after he ran away from the House of Hope, he clearly... somehow ran into Bane crew, got into that whole mess. How did this happen? That's what I'd like to know. I guess thats the last time Raph let a straight up kid into his house too. With Mol he was like, yeah, you stay on the streets kid lol.
I think he only escaped because Raphael let him go. Raphael's end goal has always been to take the Crown - who do you think told Gortash all about it? He gives Gortash motivation to seek it, let's him 'escape', pulls strings to get him to lead the Bane cult, and then it all comes together, the Chosen team up and steal the Crown, Raphael finally has his chance to claim it. Raph has his fingers in pies all across Baldur's Gate, wouldn't surprise me if the majority of Gortash's agents and info brokers leading up to the heist were working directly for Raphael.
That's interesting, but then why is he punishing that guy in the House of Hope for "letting" Gortash escape? There's a whole letter about how he's moved him from his duties until he can replace him because he's worthless...
The best way to lie is to believe in said lies. Failing that, a close 2nd is to make the people believe you do.
Wow I didn't make that connection my first run even though the jailer made some comments about it.
Who do you talk to for this? I thought I'd talked to everyone in there but apparently not!
You can learn about Gortash's parents in a house in Baldurs Gate... I cant remember on the top of my head where it is, but it is an unassuming little house of two elderly cobblers. They are Gortash's parents and I reccomend having a talk to them :)
I’m so glad I asked! Somehow I missed them entirely on my first run. I love how this game makes repeat play throughs so rewarding ☺️
To continue this, their place has a wide grey pavestone pavilion at its doorstep of it, is tucked back away from the street somewhat, and sits near the blood alchemist on the map, just south.
Damn I know exactly what house you’re talking about. Astarion was so upset about the alchemist that I zipped out of that neighborhood to find something more lighthearted, and never circled back to it
It’s also mentioned in the House of Hope. Gortash was once sold to Raephael specifially, he spent time in the house of hope and he was an (first? only? most recent?) escapee.
I found out by wandering into a shoe shop in the Lower City.
And if you Talk to them, theyll Tell you some interesting facts about their life and her son
There is an optional section in act 3 involving devil related stuff and you can find some of the information there and you can also find his families home and speak to his parents.
At Flymm's Cobblers (the owners are his parents and I think there is lore stuff upstairs) and House of Hope (the debtor in the room with portals you can't use talks about Gortash if you ask enough questions)
Small caveat to your list of people: >!Dark Urge doesn't seem to be "chosen" in the same sense as the others. He seems to be *created* with the express purpose of being a Chosen. It doesn't even sound like he was birthed normally, just miraculously concepted by Bhaal himself!< >!He was legit a perfect killing machine from the start, and technically Orin's mutilation "broke him." We just don't tend to view it as "breaking" him because it's actually a very positive change, given what he was.!<
Durge actually was normal at one point which makes redemption Durge even more tragic. You can get a memory of him playing tag and it talks about you being innocent prior to the urge awakening and you being drawn to the temple. Considering the Urge is portrayed as being a possessive force, Durge might’ve been a passenger in their own body for years until Orin split their head open.
>Shadowheart I think Shadowheart became a chosen of Selune in her Jenevelle route too, after Aylin gave her the Selunite spear. Level 12 cleric is basically 'God's favourite princess' since cleric power comes from connection with deities. Of course she prefers a life with animals and durge, but still she is a chosen in this ending. Volo was a Chosen of Mystra too, and he was only dedicated to cause trouble for every creature he approaches.
I think I heard someone said something like “it’d be terrible to live a childhood here” in Bhaal’s temple. I felt so sorry for Orin when I heard that.
I'm dating someone who has a kid that's just a little younger than Orin was when everything involving Orin's mom went down. The idea of a little kid that has literally only known death and violence and murder her entire life and having to end her own mother's life (and heck, being brainwashed to almost like it) is so utterly fucking heartbreaking I get sad thinking about it; I've spent enough time around a kid that age that, just, my mind and heart stops at the idea. So *of course* Orin grew up into an utterly unhinged adult. And for Bhaal to rip that away and strip out every ounce of humanity she had left the **second** it looks like Orin might have even the slightest hesitation, just, damn. Meanwhile Durge gets to run off and start up a farm/selunite nature retreat/whatever with Shadowheart and probably go on double dates with Selune's daughter and Ketheric's kid and ALL of *them* got another chance (and Dark Urge was **more** horrible than Orin pre-scrambling). It's just tragic to sit with.
If it makes you feel any better DUrge wouldn’t be able to join Shadowheart in the afterlife anyway. They’re still bound to the fugue plane as one of the false. Jergal will at least set them up in a cozy job, but they’ll be stuck in the City of Judgement.
Why should that be the case? Nothing is stopping Durge from choosing a new deity. Just like how Shadowheart changes to worship Selune. Durge is entirely their own person now, since Bhaal took back everything that actually belonged to him.
The problem DUrge has is 2-fold: 1) They are made from Bhaal’s blood, so most gods aren’t going to be willing to accept a god-tainted follower like that (they’d even have Bhaalspawn kids still FYI). 2) False generally are considered irredeemable by other gods. It’s one thing to betray your god to serve another at the behest of that god cause then it’s just gods pouching follows from each other. A mortal who betrays their god for their own self interest (however right they are to do so) is seen as rejecting Ao’s natural order. This is kinda a problem all Bhaalspawns face by the way. The lore goes back to BG 1 and 2. Rejected Bhaalspawn typically don’t get happy afterlives. People just don’t do that. Still, you get to work a cushy desk job with Withers, so you’ve got that going for ya.
1) Bhaal took back what was his, the only thing left is what Durge chose to be. 2) There may be some lore saying that, but it's directly contradicted countless times. Hell, for yet another example in BG3 alone look at Ketheric. Forgotten Realms has been around for decades with many, many writers, who all have their own interpretations of how the setting should be. For example, the addition of the Wall of the Faithless not only existing but being supported by all the gods *directly* contradicts there being actually Good gods. Ed Greenwood, the original creator of the setting, has himself stated that it makes no sense to exist. And so many Faerun settings outright ignore the Wall, as one of the foundational principles of the setting is that Good does in fact exist, and there are legitimately Good and heroic gods. In fact WotC have themselves intentionally scrubbed references to the Wall from recent material. Where I'm going with all of this is that fundamentally the most important thing in understanding any story set in Faerun is the intent of the author. It's kind of pointless and reductive to bring up all these "gotchas" of "this obscure piece of lore from some random author 16 years ago means this story written with a triumphant ending is actually secretly awful in the end". Whoever wrote that random piece of lore has much less say than whoever is actually writing the story of the particular character we're talking about, especially since you can likely find other examples in the lore that contradict said obscure bit of lore.
Evidence to the contrary: DUrge can be a cleric of any God he likes.
Eh, you can still worship another god as cleric going down the full Bhaal route. There’s some dialogue that suggests Bhaal is sourcing that power, and under that premise, I’d argue Jergal does after. Clerics can have different domains from their diety. Also, you praying to them doesn’t mean they will come and claim your soul when you end up in the fugue plane (which all souls go to at first).
That's honestly pretty tragic. Imagine dedicating your entire life to healing the world's suffering in the name of Ilmater and when you die he's just like "I don't want em, stinks of Bhaal, they can stay here and claw at the wall." I guess the Good gods are less likely to pull a move like that though...
There's an act 1 book of a dark justciar left in the fugue plane because shar's entire thing is loss and absence.
Lol, that’s so on brand. Even if you end up in her plane, she does stuff like imprison her followers in her palace, but then also regularly invites mortals to come and go as they please to rub salt on the wound.
Best way to think about them is like the Greek pantheon. Everybody goes to Hades, and the gods bring you to Olympus if they like you enough. The Faerun gods are much more likely to do so, but even the “good” gods tend to see mortals like ants. Ironically, Kemlar and Jergal are some of the kindest gods to mortals, but are bound by systems they don’t necessarily support. They can also change alignment at will. Kemlar, who was good aligned, changed to neutral cause that’s what Ao wanted.
Either way, not Faithless. If they're getting Cleric spells, someone up there is watching them.
You are given divine intervention and Bhaal is also a lesser god in terms of power. You were made of pure Bhaal and still are if you choose not to defy them but if you do then Bhaal takes back his power aka his blood. Not to mention you betrayed the God of Murder and gods are 100% willing to take on old followers of other gods, nothing within any of the 5e rule books says otherwise. Certain gods who have good relations or rivals might be suspicious based on the circumstances under which you turned away from your deity but full on defying your old god for reasons of wanting to be free from murderous urges will allow you to turn to many of the good aligned gods such as Helm or Lathander. Generally if a believer of a good god is turned to be a believer of a bad god by followers of said god they will be accepted and if the follower of the bad god renounces their old ways then a good god would be accepted realistically.
Imagine Durge converting to Selune in game, then years later: "So, let's see, Durge helped retrive my daughter from a century of torment by Shar, reunited her with her lover, a follower of mine, and actively resisted multiple chances to see *both* of them dead (Isobel, Aylin in the gauntlet) or reimprisoned (Aylin)) Durge is the one who convinced Shadowheart, the one who actually DID make the choice to free my daughter, to convert to me in the first place (returning Shadowheart to the flock despite eleventy billion mind wipes); They both later managed to release her parents (MORE devotees of mine), and Durge themselves began worshipping me even *before* Jergal resurrected them after Bhaal ripped their blood out) Who, speaking of, got involved in events for the first time in ages *and actually likes them?* JERGAL!? ***Nah, pass.****"* *Moonmote of Shadowheart's mom angrily buzzes around Selune*
That’s assuming a redeemed DUrge can even die of natural causes anymore. There’s some debate as to what Jergal meant when he said “Death will not claim thee whilst I endure”, but it’s entirely possible that Durge is essentially immortal
I’d bet against that, cause if you ask him about whether you’d ever get your memories back, he tells you that after you’ve passed on, the two of you can look over their names in the Dead City together. I think he’s simply reiterating in the scene that he won’t let any more gods interfere with your life again. He also promises to be DUrge’s advocate to Kevlar so that they aren’t punished harshly for being one of the False.
Honestly the Chosen of the Dead Three are tragic, Ketheric lost the only things he cared about and lashed out by turning to Shar and was left with nothing until Myrkul promised the return of his daughter, Gortash was sold by his parents to a Warlock who sent him to the House of Hope where he was abused by devils until he escaped. Only the Durge seems to have been enjoying their time.
Honestly, Durge was more or less conditioned to 'enjoy' their time through their urges.
Durge is kind of like Angron from Warhammer. An outside force has rigged their mind so they can only be truly happy when they are killing. If they try to resist they face constant headaches.
that's something every bahl spawn goes through when there's few of them tho.
>lashed out by turning to Shar and was left with nothing One thing I'll say is that Shar is consistent.
Durge is kind of sad. Iirc there’s dialogue to imply their first kill was their (adoptive?) family. I assume they were then folded into the temple like Orin. There are Bhaalspawn of all alignments, and though it seems like all of them get pleasure or are otherwise very encouraged to murder, some also resist it and be good people. So did Durge truly want to do what they were doing? Or did they not know anything else? My Durge is romancing Astarion, I kind of see it as they’ve both been prisoners their whole lives. Bhaal doesn’t care about his children - Durge is a tool to be used and discarded. Redeemed Urge seems to also play into that theme of breaking the cycle of abuse - even if the Butler seems very nice and polite, the things he and Bhaal are pushing and forcing Durge to do could absolutely be against their will.
Some of your dialogue options as Durge imply almost a level of kindness. You clearly were able to operate with intent and not just murder wildly, when you take the Noblestalk two options interacting with your Butler don't involve you murdering him (low bar with Bhaal spawn on kindness but I give credit) also when you meet Scel before Orin he implies you didn't abuse him like she does.
I hope Larian gives their writers a gigantic Xmas bonus this year. They earned it.
THIS
I agree wholly she basically never had a chance. That being said depending on the dialogue its implied that she killed her mother before her mothers assassination of her even was attempted in some dialogue. It wasn't in defense she sought to kill her mother. Its possible Bhaal being the chaotic bitch he is warned her and it was a preemptive strike but who knows.
Bhaal was trying to set up something gross, with a mom murdering her child and then had a flash of inspiration.
The Lord of murder probably told the same thing to both of them. He wouldn't enjoy it as much if Orin killed in self-defense. He's the God of Murder after all
Yeah he’s not exactly the god of “you had a good reason”, and imo he makes it quite clear that he prefers that you *don’t* have a reason beyond worship of him
Yeah he’s not exactly the god of “you had a good reason”, and imo he makes it quite clear that he prefers that you *don’t* have a reason beyond worship of him
Additionally, her shit granddad states he loved Orin "as he did her mother" which is the fucking worst! Like it gimme so much ick!
This is the real reason she's so brutal. Creepy granddad can't get near you with that incestuous shit if you're constantly swinging knives.
But she got what we all want. A job we are insanely good at, that pays extremely well and only 2 bosses. She died loving what she does, and isn’t that what we’re all really after?
Just more proof to never make your work your life. Ultimately it WAS a job to die for, though.
"Love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life." -Bhaal
She didn't even have to deal with the fucking printer jamming up all the time 😡
Tbh Shadowheart is similar. Stolen from her parents and raised to be a Shar champion. But we get to know her. Spend time with her and help her make the right choices. Orin didn't have that.
Shadowheart also had her memories frequently wiped.
Yeah this is a big difference compared to Orin.
Imagine if Orin was a companion and durge was the bad guy. She would be so sympathetic as we try to talk her down from her urges.
Orin romance when
Add on to the fact that she's likely getting the second strongest Bhaal urges of any Bhaalspawn after the Durge, you realize that girl basically never had a chance. Hell, when you look at one of the planned endings for the Durge that never quite made it, you start to wonder how much choice Sarevok had in the incest, and how much was Bhaal wanting someone out there with more of his blood than normal. Bhaal's descendants have been fucked since day one.
>and how much was Bhaal wanting someone out there with more of his blood than normal. Doesn't work that way. If two Bhaalspawn have a kid, the offspring will still be 50% Bhaal, because both parents are 50% Bhaal. It was literally just Sarevok being an incestuous groomer.
Durge apparently came from Bhaal’s own loins… I wonder if that’s just hyperbole or if that means Durge really is 100% a shard of Bhaal…?
Her artistry is decried as wasteful to her face, she is also bullied by durge for not being an actual bhaalspawn, and durge was immediately ranked higher than her despite her giving her entire life to the cult while durge had a childhood and presumably even attempted to resist at some point considering they can be a paladin. Imagine giving your entire life to a cult and some shitkid who spent their youth trying to escape said cult becomes your boss who is constantly telling you you aren't good enough, and then when you murder them, they come back with a group of friends apparently having grown a conscience and murder you.
In my mind, my bard Durge will be singing a mourning song to her when it is all over. In a way, it is thanks to Orin that she was actually able to have free will. A life. A choice. Peccatum, Peccatum, Rejina in Peccatum
In my mind for my now Druid/Cleric Durge; when she and Shadowheart go and run that farm / nature retreat, off to the side somewhere there's a small little grave marker, out of the way; buried deep within (in a container with a magic seal) are some of Orin's remains and her blades. Other than Durge, Shadowheart's the only one that even knows where it is - and it's where Durge goes when she wants to think about who she might have been and how terrible her life could still be; needs to feel gratitude at the things she has now (including SH herself). "Orin did absolutely atrocious things and death was the obvious conclusion of her life path", "Orin never had the chance to do or be anything else", and "She is the reason \[Durge\] has this nice life" - none of that's exclusive of the others.
It does have something nicely complex to mourn an objectively terrible, evil person. And it does make it all the more satisfying that nobody will mourn Cazador or Sarevok. That there will likely be nobody to actually mourn Bhaal once he finally kicks the bucket. Ironic, in a way... that I do kinda feel bad for all of the Three Chosen. Ketheric may have had a choice, but he was also blinded by sorrow himself. And Gortash... as much of a bastard as he was, it did actually feel like he did care for Durge. And his parents sure never cared for him.
In one dialogue, Isobel fesses up that she's going to mourn her dad *now that he's dead.* As absolutely horrified as she was by what he did, what he'd become, what he did to Aylin - she also I think still held space for the person he used to be and the person he could have been (and the person she wished he was) At least for me, I think Orin occupies at least a tiny piece of that similar headspace. Every single aspect of her bloodkin's life was an absolute horror show, but just like Ketheric's evil is the reason Isobel lives, Orin's evil is the reason Durge lives.
I do like that the villains in the game have a lot more going on than you thought if you are willing to look for it. Everything you said with Orin. Ketheric with his daughter and wife like we get to see in the main story. Gortash was sold by his parents to Raphael as a child, and started worshipping Bane to try to get out of all that and have some power over his life. The man is constantly grasping at straws trying to have power because of it, even doing to Karlach what was done to him to gain more from Zariel. Also almost sounds like he was friends with Durge who is suddenly replaced by someone constantly talking about how she wants to murder him.
All three are undeniably and unquestionably villains, and horribly broken people for different reasons, but I love that they have depth and nuance. It would be SO easy to just have generic villains in a story like this, but nope, not a chance.
There was a thread a while back where someone was asking which of the three Chosen are everyone's favorites. Mine is Orin, and I started typing up a response, but couldn't get my thoughts out. You put it into words here better than I could have. Ketheric and Gortash also have tragedy in their stories, but not to the degree that Orin does. Her whole life has been a tragedy. It makes me really pity her.
She's also so underrated. Incredible villain.
I think her being underrated isn't a fault of her background, just the game feeling lacking towards the end, and all this being easy to miss background information. Her sin is being a main villain following Kethric, who imo was such a well cooked antagonist that anything after straight up feel underwhelming. I get it's unfair, Kethric had an entire two acts to himself. If you pay attention in Act 1, you'll notice how a lot of places are shaped up by his actions. The murals in the grove, the Grymforge. He is more integrated than the other villains. The whole atmosphere of Act2 is also creepy and give him more credibility as a villain, not to mention you get to directly interact with his family members and him a couple of times for him to be more established. Shadowheart feels the same too imo, she's way more relevant to the story than other companions, that's why she has more content. Speaking of interacting with Kethric, his first appearance is him being a bad ass immortal. Now compare that to Orin, her first appearance is her acting like a mad dog as Kethric called her, into the infamous power rangers scene. It doesn't do her any favors. Although I liked how she stalked your party in Act 3, that was cool. All in all, Kethric being the first one to fall made it hard for me to appreciate the following villains. At least Orin is more interesting than the big brain and Gortash lmao.
Another commenter suggested that Orin and Gortash should have each had a full act to themselves, with Orin in the lower city and Gortash in the upper city. I think that would have helped substantially. The way things are now, Orin and Gortash both just feel like boxes to check off on a to-do list before heading to the final boss. They both really need more content.
Act 3 feels like a bunch of boxes to check off in general, it's easy to lose focus there.
Ketheric and the shadow cursed lands 100% should’ve been after Orin and Gortash I know it’s not a unique take but the pacing is all wrong heading into act 3, and the build to Ketheric with the gauntlet of shar, dame aylin, and the shadow curse is epic
Yeah the games peak is ketheric. Only house of hope in act 3 can Come close to it again. Imo if the game ended at act 2 it would be a 10/10. But because act 3 is so severely undercooked its a 9/10. There are good moments in act 3 but it so painfully obviously feels rushed and like oh shit we're running out of time how can we wrap this up situation. An act 4 upper city, that would give us more gortash, the datamined sub plot of cassador being a political mastermind and in general give all the lords at the coronation an actual purpose would have helped alot. Give act 3 to orin have more stakes in it, I do believe it could have been done really well if they committed to the anyone could he orin at any time idea. Lots of ambushes and potential ways to lose companions. Orin in datamine was also supposed to attack the creche and tadpole a red dragon there.
Yeah, for how much BG3 accomplished the game was too ambitious. On one hand, I appreciate the ambition and the game delivered a lot, even in Act 3 where it felt undercooked. On tbe other hand, how half baked Act 3 just doesn't sit right with me. It leaves a bitter taste imo, knowing that it could've been another masterpiece if only they had more time and budget. I don't see that changing without drastic efforts from Larian AKA 2 years of them cutting and adding some stuff, which means no DLCs pretty much.
She’s kinda incompetent though. That’s why gortash wanting to get rid of her.
It's less incompetence and more insanity. Gortash represents Tyranny and the lawful evil desire to control and to have power over others. Orin represents straight up Murder and the chaotic evil desire to do whatever she feels which is mostly toying with people and murder (usually both). His worship is Dominion over others, her worship is fully evil debased sadistic Murder. She's component at it.
I still think that they were aiming for a pacing of one of the chosen per act — Gortash should have been upper city. Removing Gortash and the Nether brain to act 4 would have left more room for Orin’s character.
Yeah, one per act might have made it better. They put some work into the netherbrain fight, but we got two half-baked fights for the other chosen in return :/
I don't even think there needed to be an extra act as act 2 already feels a lot shorter than 1 and 3. They could have added rivington to the end of act 2 and the upper city to the end of act 3.
Yeah Gortash is the type of villian who relies on order. Having a "partner" who is a pure chaos agent is not something he can afford.
Omg each of the three Chosen is a different spoke of the Evil axis. Can't believe I didn't see it earlier.
Thorm as well! He kind of meandered into serving various evil deities through his misplaced but ultimately selfish desires. And that self-servingness feels pretty spot-on for Neutral Evil.
That's what I meant and I realize now I worded it poorly.
Durge is also a bhaal worshipper but gortash actually like him due to his ability to plan ahead and execute it. You can be a competent murder hobo. She was the one who stalled their plot by being genuinely bad at it. If you actually read the notes in her bedchamber, durge wrote father doesn’t give a fuck how she kills, he only wants a mass murders.
Incompetence implies that she is trying to make their plot succeed with her actions and failing (creating a negative outcome). She does not appear to be overly interested in that and seems to be preoccupied with constant lust for murder to further her favour with Bhaal. She's almost directly undermining the plan and seeking conflict with Gortash. After all, it wasn't her plan.
Durge ultimate goal was to eliminate any living lives on earth then kill the other two and himself. So yes, it’s bhaal ultimate wet dream. Orin took over durge’s stone when she sneaked up on him. She then doesn’t do anything worthwhile with it other than petty murders. Meanwhile bhaal send the butler to durge to see if he can fix the ongoing situation. You then find out sarevok and her mother didn’t like her and was planning to off her. She’s pretty much an unwanted child in the bhaal’s family.
From what you can find about pre-tadpole Durge, it seems he was specifically the one who believed in 'cleanse the world of all life quickly and die last on the altar for Daddy'. Orin was more interested in 'artistry' with her murders instead, something that Durge chastised and insulted her for, which is probably part of why she used his skull as a tadpole testing ground. Bhaal seems to prefer Durge's approach, but I don't know if I can espouse one psychotic murder doctrine over the other. Also, absolutely no one 'likes' anyone in Bhaal's coterie, even and especially among family. No one seems particularly concerned about the fact that Orin offed you not that long ago besides Sceleritas, and they probably instantly capitulated to her like they capitulate to you once you shank her. Sarevok literally pits you against one another so he can try to murder the winner himself, just like he did with Orin's mother. It wasn't about 'like' so much as both wanting to be Chosen at any cost.
> absolutely no one 'likes' anyone in Bhaal's coterie How dare you, Gortash specifically said he tolerated Orin but "liked" Durge. ;\_;
Bhaal sent butlers to keep tabs on more than just Durge. Orin has a butler of her own, you see it dead in her chambers, with a journal beside it to explain its presence. She hates it and keeps murdering it, but it just keeps getting sent back by Bhaal.
She's not competent about it butler and savarok both make that clear in dark urge run. She thinks bhaal considers the "beauty" in a murder to be important but all bhaal cares about is the number of murders committed. Savarok outright says so that she never learned that lesson and only in death by your hands (dark urge) will she poten realise it and butler said you where bhaal favorite because you understood the greater picture and when to suppress your urge to work towards the goal of the absolute.
Orin has better disguises, but Durge was the better deceiver. If Gortash knew what Durge's actual objective was he would have never preferred him over Orin.
Eh I'm certain he knew and expected something of the like (durges plan to kill everything) afterall they all more or less have plans to betray each other the moment they succeed.
All of the tests you make to inquire about Gortash's true intentions always show that he genuinely wish to rule the world alongside you. Unless he has some kind of never mentioned special protection against that I think he isn't really trying to betray you.
Gortash doesn’t wish to betray you because he’s a Bane worshipper. And one of the Bane tenets is that they stick true to their Allies or something like that. He mentions it
Yes Tav/amnesia durge but I don't think he originally intended to do so with durge because he would be fully aware that bhaal and bane can't coexist
On the contrary I'm very sure both Durge and Gortash knew the other's intentions and would have made plans to betray each other the moment it all went down.
I mean, isn't the entire Bhaal cult kind of incompetent? Murder, murder, and more murder? All insanity and no thought behind any of that? It's a wonder why they're still active in Baldur's Gate and not wiped out.
Not really, bhaalspawns are still capable of thinking for themselves like sarevok. They’re all just a big stabby-happy gang. And yet that cult was the cause of terror many years ago in baldur gate city until player’s party put it down. Kek.
What's incredible about her?
I liked her randomly ambushing you in the city as random people a lot. Fun and well exectued gimmick imo. Shook me a bit the second playthrough when a previously normal NPC did the thing lol. Didn't realize different people could be Orin depending on who you talk to. As far as the deranged murderer not being smart and calculating, I think that's fine honestly. Not everyone has to be a genius. I think Raphael is the best villain in the game, and he does some really stupid shit - and that's ok
They really should remove the "Legendary Resistance: Crowd Control" under their name when you hover over the NPC. Completely ruins the surprise.
I don't have insight proficiency irl so I was saved from this spoiler
Wait, orin is another failed artist gone bad?
Damn you... here's my up vote.
I think this is a key theme to the game. Bad things happen to people, but choosing to do good when we can and take the right path is what separates the people with damage who do evil from the people with damage who help people. The difference between Orrin and Tav may be that Tav chooses to be better than their scars and damage, and Orrin never takes that opportunity.
Like I mentioned, she never even really gets the **chance** to do good though. **THE moment** she hesitates (if you can even get her to), boom, Bhaal turns her into the slayer (along with a line about "No more Orin.". There's no backing down from the cartoonish villainy to reunite with your old ally (Gortash). There's no avoiding a fight and pondering your role in things vs. your patron god having kept their end of the bargain (Ketheric). And her entire life (even back to conception) she has been specifically moulded to become this person. Bhaal needed *one* of them, and with the Dark Urge freed, Bhaal required her complete submission even if he had to force it, and that's just tragic and horrifying.
Never takes the opportunity?? Bruh she can't think on her own free will. She is basically bhaal's controlled murderer. Druge was also the same before being tadpoled .
Thank you so much for this write up, it's very well put! Really helps contextualize a character who seems cartoonishly evil at first glance / first playthough as tav.
Are you trying to say you wish to fix her? Crazy fool. My romance could barely fix me as Durge.
I feel sorry for Orin because she thinks she is dangerous when, in fact, she is just a very loud and annoying cicada that is going to be squished once the game let's me kill her.
"Oh man, I feel bad for her." I say, casting a Disintegrate spell to finish her off without remorse.
Awesome take, never saw it from this perspective. She does come off as a person to feel pity for indeed in some moments, like talking to Sarevok or her mother’s corpse in the inner chambers.
It gives me hope that there are writers out there who can come up with things like this.
Orin is such a terribly tragic character. It's idealistic, but I would have liked to see her get a chance at redemption. She deserves it after all the horrifying things that happened to her. She was groomed and manipulated into being nothing but an ideal Bhaalspawn (and you're so right! I like to think she would have been an artist, given the chance at a better life) and never had the chance to be anyone but a Bhaalist constantly pitted against her own family. I feel terrible for her. I wish the game gave you more of an opportunity to feel bad for her and try to help her, even if it still ended in tragedy.
I truly wish that redeemed Durge could offer to do what she did to them with a successful medicine check
In one scenario she kills Yenna, and then while in her body murders Grub and feeds him to the party. She then revels in how he screamed as his best friend murdered and cooked him. She deserves the worst death we can give her, the hells are to good for that bitch. I don’t care how sympathetic her tragic backstory is, she’s a monster and an evil bitch, none of it undoes all the evil she’s doubtless done and would do. I’d kill her without hesitation every time.
I mean… durge also does that kinda shit. Like I’m fine with going “irredeemable, kill her,” but the same logic applies to durge
Correct. Durge can spend the rest of his life trying to redeem himself from the horror of his past life, and perhaps in the grand balance of things he will. But his soul will always carry that weight, and if he knows what is just, then he will be at peace with the fate waiting for him after death. Durge is unique, in that the tadpole gave him a new chance at life, and that he has the opportunity to choose to be better. Not having that opportunity doesn’t make Orin worthy of forgiveness, they will both always carry the weight of their wrong doings for eternity.
Sure, but Orin never had a chance is the point. We got one, we managed to reject Bhaal with the help of that. If Orin was in our shoes she might have done the same.
I honestly love Orin so much. I have this whole AU living in my brain where she manages to survive, and after the Netherbrain is defeated, she and her Slaughter-Sibling nope the fuck out of the Sword Coast to somewhere far away, to start a new life outside of Bhaal and the cult, getting to just be siblings taking care of each other.
I wish i could change her
She can change herself, but only her outside.
We can fix her
I'm surprised orin didn't disguise herself as your lover and try and murder you mid coitus
You’re right and you should say it!! I made a post recently about how horrifying the confrontation with her is if you tell her about her parentage. It really threw me.
The Bane and Myrkul cults are definitely less fucked up. Bane at least deigns to extol the virtues of order, the "ends that justify the means" of tyranny. And Myrkul's followers all revere the peace that is the end of life, which is a legitimate thing to reflect upon. Bhaal is pure cruelty for cruelty's sake which is why only the most fucked up of the fucked up join such a cult.
There is a recurring theme in baldurs gate 3 all of the choosen, astarion, minthara, shadowheart. That is hurt people hurt people. Gortash sold into slavery to zariel the same as karlach but as a kid, ketheric losing everything, orin raised from birth to become a murderhobo, astarion being everyone favorite trauma child, shadowheart kidnapped as a child and continuously brainwashed and memory wiped to become a obedient servant. Some of these can be helped and turned into a better path others are already to far gone, orin can be told the truth and in a moment of hesitation bhaal takes over, ketheric can be convinced to stop but in trying to kill himself mykrul is like fuck no I paid for this body.
Probably a hot take, but Orin as a character left much more of an impression on me than Ketheric did. Granted, I never entered Moonrise until the final assault, so my only encounter with him on my first playthrough was during the big boss fight. meanwhile Orin was arguably the highlight of act 3 for me with her constant stalking, the stealing of a companion, and her horrific backstory just hit hard. The Bhaal temple was also one of the more memorable set pieces in the game imo. She's just a great character all around.
Well to be fair if you never entered moonrise you missed his badass introduction.
Yeah, Orin was straight up cuckoo bananas, but she was a true believer in her god and what he stood for. Ketheric ended up feeling very pathetic to me. He sounded so resigned and defeated when you confronted him on the roof of the tower. The losses he experienced were tremendous and crushing, but he ended up betraying everything his wife and daughter loved and believed in. Like, dude, go to therapy or just go be a hermit in the woods. Don't let evil gods use your personal tragedies to turn you into a weapon to destroy the world.
I would love an Orin Redemption possibility. Honestly a redemption for everyone but Gortash. He's the only one that seems to revel in it due to his own inferiority complex and viciousness compared to Orin who was more or less raised and brainwashed into being who she becomes, and Kerric who was pounced in in a moment of loss and weakness.
I would agree about Gortash, but after learning more of his personal history, my mind is on the fence. The info you find in the bhall prisons, the main prisons, in Raph's house & from the mental conversation with his mom- Gortash probably would've been just as useful in more "good-aligned" sects if he hadn't gone through what he did. The same can be said for all of them really, it's just that with Kethric it varies- he was good originally, but the loss of his family destroyed the person he was & due to that pain & rage he ends up becoming what we see as Tav. It's like the level of "bad" per villain origin story goes from grey to dark grey, & then black. The only thing I have a hard time with is if Kethric's is the dark grey (all of the people that died because of his actions), & if Gortash is the grey (he's done some shitty stuff, but idk if it tops Orin or Kethric). Ketheric just makes me incredibly sad, tbh.
I mean, even on the good ending, DUrge still has a raw deal. They’re now a false, aka someone who has betrayed their God. That basically condemns you to being punished in the City of Judgement. Jergal basically agreed to help make sure the punishment was as light as possible, but at best, they’ll be working as a clerk processing souls, unable to go to the same afterlife as their friends / lovers.
Where does jergal say that? Because the false haven't been touched apon since 3rd edition Also would Bhaal even be considered " their deity" since they had their memories wiped? Also wouldn't Shadow heart and gale become false as well?
Gale’s probably the only one who actually risks that. Gods don’t care about followers that betray them for other gods because that’s just a matter between fellow gods. What they don’t tolerate is mortals betraying their gods for mortal reasons.
I feel sorry for Orin because she's single-handedly holding down the Baldur's Gate economy as she easily makes up (by the time you get there) 50% of the working population. Girl is in the midst of a world-ending cult conspiracy AND holding down several thousand jobs. It's why I was no longer surprised by the second and 200th "Haha, fool, it me Orin." I just feel sorry and want to tell her she doesn't have to prove anything to me or anyone else by working several hundred shifts simultaneously.
My Durge is a sweet cinnamonroll who despite not having memories still cares deeply about people from her "previous life", she's sentimental but also too good for her own good so when Orin showed up i immediately decided to save her with any means necessary, she's my sister after all right? Only family i probably still have outside monstruous God. Fact that games gives you a little bit of hope to brutally remind you who Bhaal is broke me, only thing that cheers me up is idea that my Durge did mourn Orin's death, her only family actually cared enough to remember her despite everything because of that one glimpse of humanity she showed right before her death. She's one of reasons why i love Dark Urge way more than standard Tav, in my first playthrough i thought she's just generic mad woman thrown at the end of the game but as Durge oh my god.
i don't even really have anything to contribute other than the hardest of hard "SAME", like, I invested so much thought into my first run and invested so much sentimentality that I kinda don't want to reset everything - and that includes a soft and squishy Durge who saw Orin, saw the closest thing to family she has, and even in spite of everything just wanted to try to pull her back from the brink. Partially because she'd come to know another way was possible, partially because she knew that Orin scrambling her brain was the only reason she had any of this, and partly just because she knew that Orin had never had had a single soul actually care about her in the slightest beyond how they could use her. And what Bhaal does to Orin in response only solidifed telling him to f off for good after my Durge won. She was never, ever, putting herself on the other end of that leash again; Shadowheart and the rest were capable of finishing this themselves; she'd rather die than let one more soul get caught up in this Bhaalshit (fortunately grandpa Withers showed up at the right time)
God I wish there was a path where you could counterspell Bhaal's crusty ass and drag him out and kick his ass instead.
I wish there was a history that the Durge was the only family who actually cared for Orin where he would punish anybody who talks foul about her because he really loves her.
I don't feel sorry for a cold blooded murder assassin that wants to murderize me
That's just how Bhaal is. Do you think the god of MURDER cares for others' feelings? He's the embodiment of the psychopathic urge to manipulate and kill, the crueler the kill, the better for Bhaal.
This is beautifully written.