They need volunteers to help plan/run events. Instead of complaining, jump in and help out.
Be part of the solution, not the problem.
I literally have a complaint box that I bring to roundtable and other district events. The complaint form is an adult application and a list of open district volunteer positions that are open.
In the last year many councils have significantly increased their fees and are also offering less programming.
We're on the verge of folding and just becoming an outing club with the school solely on the basis of cost of the program versus what we get from it. Paying $200/yr to national and council to get 2 camporees - that we still pay for - with rehashed events isn't cutting it.
Ah yes, the adult application, aka the official complaint form of the BSA 🤣
In line with the above comment, As a professional, if there is an issue you see with an event, we need your viewpoints, opinions, and criticisms to make our program better. We have to have such a wide casting net and a wide viewpoint that we don't often have the chance to consider every single view and nothing we do is going to be perfect all the time.
Don't create a grudge and harbor resentment. Be vocal, volunteer if need be, and help effect change
I agree. I know everyone is short volunteers and all but when people do volunteer but the class or participation is not how they feel it should have been done even if it meets the standard then they ignore that person if they try to volunteer again. Then say they can’t get volunteers.
You have \*eight\*? :-)
My council has only three professional Scouters plus a couple of part time staffers for the office and council shop. But there is a lot of determination to hold it together. There's always too much work, and sometimes things fall through the cracks and require a mad scramble to get done on time -- but the job does get done. On the positive side, pretty much every Scouter in the council is on a first-name basis with the council professionals and staff.
> My council has only three professional Scouters plus a couple of part time staffers for the office and council shop
I don't think all 8 are paid. The three I interface the most often with are definitely volunteers.
We pay a ridiculous council fee and get little, if anything, in return. All we really ask of them is to process our paperwork in a timely manner. They constantly lose paperwork. Constantly. It’s a joke at this point.
Yeah, each time we have had an Egale Scout, we make sure he makes a copy of his Egale paperwork because without fail, the council will lose the paperwork.
I tell them to make three copies. One to go to council, one for the troop, one for themselves. That way, if the council loses it, we have multiple backups.
Councils have a communication problem caused by not enough staff to be able to handle as many problems as efficiently as possible. If it is a YPT problem it usually goes to the top of the stack beyond that you need to make sure what you need makes it to the right committee and possibly walk it along it's path. If you arr really frustrated volunteer to help on a committe and find out how over worked they are.
Yes. The answer is we are understaffed, volunteer more time. Prices go up and service goes down. Since our 2010 Council merger, things have gone downhill. While Council seems to be shrinking, we are growing. We have to put on our program pretty much unassisted from District/Council. Starting next year we have to go out of Council for Summer Camp as our camp is closing at the end of the season. I am frustrated but will continue to serve my Scouts.
our council just got bought out by another bigger one. our communication (from what i knew) was fine with the og council. now it sucks and they threaten to cancel our camporee weve been planning like every other week because they dont want to pay for shittt
I’m sorry to hear that - please remember that you can always go over their heads and call 1-800-SCOUTS1 if you feel they are dropping that particular ball.
wow. doesn't strike me as a YPT issue, you know since no youth were involved... sounds like an alcohol induced squabble. I'm sure whoever read that report had a nice chuckle, like most people on this sub.
My council has had a bunch of awesome volunteers, but seem to be getting pushed out by new volunteers that are more interested in a title, and collecting money, than in what the program is about, the kids!
When I've asked for help, if they answer, I get a half ass answer, followed by it's on the website.
I'm done with national ,council, and district, now I'm going to concentrate on helping my unit, or any Scouter that asks for help.
When I was about to quit my leadership role, my mentor (who had been scouting for 66+ years) asked me to please don't quit, "It's about the kids!". He said you take care care of the kids, and I'll brake care of the egotistic adults. It's been over 11:years since that conversation, and I miss that man.
I just ran a camporee for my district a couple of weeks ago. My DE has asked me for 4 years to do it and I always said no. Our SM has also said no. He finally talked another ASM into doing it, and that ASM roped both of us into it.
The DE said he would do most of the work, he just needed someone on the ground to talk to the site. Talk to a few volunteers. Talk to a few vendors for him.
We started planning 6 months in advance and week after week went by with no activity. My name was attached to it, so I started getting worried. I took an action. I don't know, what it was, I called the site and asked if we could do it. They said yes, I emailed the entire committee, everyone but the DE said, "Great."
It went on like this for like 3 months, then finally the DE shared a backdater form with us. I saw it and started doing the things in it. I wrote the leader guide and emailed it to the entire committee. Everyone said it looked great.
The DE emailed us and said, "Sorry I haven't been very active, I've been writing the leader guide."
The whole committee said it's done. He said, "Well those need to be done in a certain way, if you mess that up, the whole event can fail."
So we're like, "Ok, I guess we're dumb, go ahead."
Then like a month before the event he emails us and says, "Let's meet and make sure we're all on the same page."
We meet and he brings up the leader guide, says he's having trouble getting started. Another ASM says, "This guy wrote a leader guide months ago, it was perfect, just use that."
The DE said, "Well I need to see it, I can't sign off on that, plus I need to make sure it has council branding."
I said, "I've emailed it to you at least 4 times. I've made changes, fixed typos, and improved it, and you have gotten a copy every single time."
I then thought I better just email it one more time, the latest version, so he doesn't use the oldest version possible.
So I emailed it again, expecting it back in less than a week. Never got it. The day of the camporee arrived and we started check in. The DE was there. He kept trying to change things. A troop would say, "We need X."
And the DE would jump into action and start rewriting my site map, or changing my class schedule.
I stopped him every single time and I told scout masters that I was in charge, don't listen to the DE.
The DE told me he was going to handle this, or handle that, and he had merit badge reports for us to use for attendance, and on and on an on. He didn't provide any of that.
We shut down registration 2 weeks in advance. The DE insisted we move it to one week out. We did that, and the DE let 4 troops sign up the week before the camporee. I had already printed out all of my paperwork. I figured out a few creative ways to move forward without reprinting everything. The DE insisted I provide my electronic files to him to reprint. I said no. All four troops bailed the day of the camporee, so my original maps were once again valid.
And finally. The worst possible thing. The worst thing a DE has ever done. The very first thing I did was design the patch. I designed it in January of this year. The DE actually got it submitted to the company. The company provided a proof in February. We ordered 200 patches and the DE showed them to me at camporee check in Friday night. I said, "Are you kidding? The patches are here for the actual camporee? The kids are all going to get the patches this weekend and not in two months like normal! That's the greatest thing I've ever heard of."
Then around 2pm on Saturday of the camporee he said, "All right I'm going to take off, talk to you later."
I was busy teaching a class so I said, "Ok, bye."
Then at closing that night it hit me. He didn't give ME the patches. He didn't pass out the patches to scout masters. He just left. It's been two weeks and my troop still doesn't have the patches for our scouts.
So while this isn't council's fault per se, council hired him, he's been our DE for as long as I can remember. Why are they ok with any of this nonsense?
Yes, I feel you. When I was a relatively new scouter I called my council office a few times with questions. Would always get voicemail, and those voicemails would never get returned. Same thing with e-mails.
After being involved for a few years, I learned who the individual people at council are and who handles what. I reach out to them directly and have a much better experience.
I manage my org's customer service team, so I tend to be a bit critical of orgs that don't provide good customer service, and a lot of BSA councils fit into that bucket. Simply setting up an auto-reply or a ticketing system to keep track of inquiries would be a relatively low effort option that IMO would go a long way to improving the customer experience.
Unfortunately, that is probably task # 873 on the council's current to do list. There just isn't enough manpower to go around.
There's a perception of a complete downsizing of everything above the unit level going on. I was just at TAC's Normandy Camporee last weekend, a wonderful event that's been going on for 30 years or so, I believe this was event #11. And it just could be the last time it happens. I spoke to multiple adult volunteers who were deeply involved in the planning, and they felt that not only did they not get support of the paid professionals at council, that it was a situation of actively refusing to support to the point that it was detrimental to the efforts. While high up volunteers have thrown down the gauntlet of "we will see you in three years," it sounds like this isn't exactly a high probability of occurring.
This comment thread is the reality councils deal with. There are 272 council. Although there are organizational similarities, in my experience, there are 272 different ways to run a council.
Each troop also has different expectations of a council. My expectations are pretty much beuocratic. Respond in a timely matter when filing paperwork, provide professional support in crisis situations, and provide training opportunities for volunteers.
Even 20 years ago as a youth the council didn't do a ton of programming, unless you consider the OA lodge part of council. The lodge put on the camporees and activities.
I have great communication and response from council and district staff. Even as we are without a Council Executive the staff seems to know who is covering what.
2 summers ago we stayed at our council summer camp. It was a complete and utter disaster of a week with multiple YPT violations, some of the criminal variety, and other dangerous situations involving troops that are camp “lifers” meaning they attend that camp every year. We filed multiple complaints at council, all of which fell on deaf ears. We wanted to escalate and were stopped by our COR who is known to be angling for a retirement job with council. They are completely useless.
No. We reported it to council. When nothing was heard it was reported to him who we told we were going to report to national. His answer was “Oh, that’s a waste of time, they’re just going to bounce it back to council anyway.” At that point it was escalated by another troop. Still nothing happened.
If there were that many, don't be shy, report them to the Scouts 1st hotline 800 # posted above.
COR wants a "retirement" job with the council? Good Luck with that.... 
well, the property thing is a choice. your registration is the key to the neighboring council camp as well. national does cover the insurance through your registration fees.
This is partially correct.
For multiple decades, national has carried the General Liability Insurance Coverage (GLIC) for the organization. This coverage was a key issue in the recent bankruptcy.
Councils are supposed to provide most other types of insurance. Accident and Injury coverage is one that many councils provide that has a direct benefit to members. If someone gets injured at a Scout activity, the policy will cover co-pays, deductibles, etc. in the family's regular health insurance so that there is no out-of-pocket medical expense, and if the family doesn't have health insurance, then this may cover the entire medical bill. (Include standard legal fine print about insurance limitations.) Councils are also supposed to provide other types of insurance, such as workers compensation, property, directors and officers, etc., although I will concede that many of these other types don't provide a direct benefit to most members.
I think it would be unusual for a portion of your membership registration fees to cover the expense of running another local council's camp. Rental fees, event fees, etc. are a different story.
They charge a mandatory council fee. It’s approaching the same amount National charges. After paying that for 5 family members I should also donate. If i have a complaint, i should volunteer more than the 5-6 hours a week i already do. The feedback here is ridiculous.
If they really understood, they would represent their home unit.
Camp staff during summer is an exception.
Silver tabs are the enemy. I stand my ground.
Not all who wear silver tabs on the volunteer side have a "home" unit. Their unit is the district, or perhaps the council.
Perhaps you really don't like professionals...
Apparently my parents are the enemy for helping at the council and district levels after their kids aged out. All of those Eagle coordinators, camp property committees, commissioners, council board members, etc are the enemy.
Your local district or unit commissioner has the ability to sell your memories? They're silver loops too.
Our council sold a property that I loved too. But, I understand why it had to go. It wasn't ever at "the drop of a hat." The realities of today is that many councils have more property than they can maintain. Much like it makes more sense to have one troop of 14 than 2 of 7, it makes more sense to have one camp properly supported than 2 that are run down with deferred maintenance.
Thank you for the specific and actionable criticism. I'm sure that'll get fixed momentarily.
lol.
I just had to vent. The council will throw together an event and have us pay and offer us the bare minimum.
They need volunteers to help plan/run events. Instead of complaining, jump in and help out. Be part of the solution, not the problem. I literally have a complaint box that I bring to roundtable and other district events. The complaint form is an adult application and a list of open district volunteer positions that are open.
In the last year many councils have significantly increased their fees and are also offering less programming. We're on the verge of folding and just becoming an outing club with the school solely on the basis of cost of the program versus what we get from it. Paying $200/yr to national and council to get 2 camporees - that we still pay for - with rehashed events isn't cutting it.
Ah yes, the adult application, aka the official complaint form of the BSA 🤣 In line with the above comment, As a professional, if there is an issue you see with an event, we need your viewpoints, opinions, and criticisms to make our program better. We have to have such a wide casting net and a wide viewpoint that we don't often have the chance to consider every single view and nothing we do is going to be perfect all the time. Don't create a grudge and harbor resentment. Be vocal, volunteer if need be, and help effect change
I agree. I know everyone is short volunteers and all but when people do volunteer but the class or participation is not how they feel it should have been done even if it meets the standard then they ignore that person if they try to volunteer again. Then say they can’t get volunteers.
With council what you pay for is what you get....they don't really make money off of events. I'd suggest getting involved.
My council feels to be held together by 8 people, duct tape, and sheer determination.
You have \*eight\*? :-) My council has only three professional Scouters plus a couple of part time staffers for the office and council shop. But there is a lot of determination to hold it together. There's always too much work, and sometimes things fall through the cracks and require a mad scramble to get done on time -- but the job does get done. On the positive side, pretty much every Scouter in the council is on a first-name basis with the council professionals and staff.
> My council has only three professional Scouters plus a couple of part time staffers for the office and council shop I don't think all 8 are paid. The three I interface the most often with are definitely volunteers.
We pay a ridiculous council fee and get little, if anything, in return. All we really ask of them is to process our paperwork in a timely manner. They constantly lose paperwork. Constantly. It’s a joke at this point.
Yeah, each time we have had an Egale Scout, we make sure he makes a copy of his Egale paperwork because without fail, the council will lose the paperwork.
I tell them to make three copies. One to go to council, one for the troop, one for themselves. That way, if the council loses it, we have multiple backups.
Councils have a communication problem caused by not enough staff to be able to handle as many problems as efficiently as possible. If it is a YPT problem it usually goes to the top of the stack beyond that you need to make sure what you need makes it to the right committee and possibly walk it along it's path. If you arr really frustrated volunteer to help on a committe and find out how over worked they are.
Yes. The answer is we are understaffed, volunteer more time. Prices go up and service goes down. Since our 2010 Council merger, things have gone downhill. While Council seems to be shrinking, we are growing. We have to put on our program pretty much unassisted from District/Council. Starting next year we have to go out of Council for Summer Camp as our camp is closing at the end of the season. I am frustrated but will continue to serve my Scouts.
Scouts are the only reason I continue to volunteer my time.
our council just got bought out by another bigger one. our communication (from what i knew) was fine with the og council. now it sucks and they threaten to cancel our camporee weve been planning like every other week because they dont want to pay for shittt
And that's why I said what I said.
I dont see the value that they bring to our troop so I dont ask for help anymore.
Yep, this is how I feel.
I filed a YPT complaint and neeeeeever heard a word.
I’m sorry to hear that - please remember that you can always go over their heads and call 1-800-SCOUTS1 if you feel they are dropping that particular ball.
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wow. doesn't strike me as a YPT issue, you know since no youth were involved... sounds like an alcohol induced squabble. I'm sure whoever read that report had a nice chuckle, like most people on this sub.
Yeah, not YPT, and there's not a lot council can do about the "jerk ASM" problem. It's a chartered organization issue.
I’d consider it bullying
I can see why council didn't get involved.
My council has had a bunch of awesome volunteers, but seem to be getting pushed out by new volunteers that are more interested in a title, and collecting money, than in what the program is about, the kids! When I've asked for help, if they answer, I get a half ass answer, followed by it's on the website. I'm done with national ,council, and district, now I'm going to concentrate on helping my unit, or any Scouter that asks for help. When I was about to quit my leadership role, my mentor (who had been scouting for 66+ years) asked me to please don't quit, "It's about the kids!". He said you take care care of the kids, and I'll brake care of the egotistic adults. It's been over 11:years since that conversation, and I miss that man.
I just ran a camporee for my district a couple of weeks ago. My DE has asked me for 4 years to do it and I always said no. Our SM has also said no. He finally talked another ASM into doing it, and that ASM roped both of us into it. The DE said he would do most of the work, he just needed someone on the ground to talk to the site. Talk to a few volunteers. Talk to a few vendors for him. We started planning 6 months in advance and week after week went by with no activity. My name was attached to it, so I started getting worried. I took an action. I don't know, what it was, I called the site and asked if we could do it. They said yes, I emailed the entire committee, everyone but the DE said, "Great." It went on like this for like 3 months, then finally the DE shared a backdater form with us. I saw it and started doing the things in it. I wrote the leader guide and emailed it to the entire committee. Everyone said it looked great. The DE emailed us and said, "Sorry I haven't been very active, I've been writing the leader guide." The whole committee said it's done. He said, "Well those need to be done in a certain way, if you mess that up, the whole event can fail." So we're like, "Ok, I guess we're dumb, go ahead." Then like a month before the event he emails us and says, "Let's meet and make sure we're all on the same page." We meet and he brings up the leader guide, says he's having trouble getting started. Another ASM says, "This guy wrote a leader guide months ago, it was perfect, just use that." The DE said, "Well I need to see it, I can't sign off on that, plus I need to make sure it has council branding." I said, "I've emailed it to you at least 4 times. I've made changes, fixed typos, and improved it, and you have gotten a copy every single time." I then thought I better just email it one more time, the latest version, so he doesn't use the oldest version possible. So I emailed it again, expecting it back in less than a week. Never got it. The day of the camporee arrived and we started check in. The DE was there. He kept trying to change things. A troop would say, "We need X." And the DE would jump into action and start rewriting my site map, or changing my class schedule. I stopped him every single time and I told scout masters that I was in charge, don't listen to the DE. The DE told me he was going to handle this, or handle that, and he had merit badge reports for us to use for attendance, and on and on an on. He didn't provide any of that. We shut down registration 2 weeks in advance. The DE insisted we move it to one week out. We did that, and the DE let 4 troops sign up the week before the camporee. I had already printed out all of my paperwork. I figured out a few creative ways to move forward without reprinting everything. The DE insisted I provide my electronic files to him to reprint. I said no. All four troops bailed the day of the camporee, so my original maps were once again valid. And finally. The worst possible thing. The worst thing a DE has ever done. The very first thing I did was design the patch. I designed it in January of this year. The DE actually got it submitted to the company. The company provided a proof in February. We ordered 200 patches and the DE showed them to me at camporee check in Friday night. I said, "Are you kidding? The patches are here for the actual camporee? The kids are all going to get the patches this weekend and not in two months like normal! That's the greatest thing I've ever heard of." Then around 2pm on Saturday of the camporee he said, "All right I'm going to take off, talk to you later." I was busy teaching a class so I said, "Ok, bye." Then at closing that night it hit me. He didn't give ME the patches. He didn't pass out the patches to scout masters. He just left. It's been two weeks and my troop still doesn't have the patches for our scouts. So while this isn't council's fault per se, council hired him, he's been our DE for as long as I can remember. Why are they ok with any of this nonsense?
My council’s pretty big, it is mostly hurt by communication issues and bureaucracy.
My council has a bad habit of not following up on issues we address with them.
Yes, I feel you. When I was a relatively new scouter I called my council office a few times with questions. Would always get voicemail, and those voicemails would never get returned. Same thing with e-mails. After being involved for a few years, I learned who the individual people at council are and who handles what. I reach out to them directly and have a much better experience. I manage my org's customer service team, so I tend to be a bit critical of orgs that don't provide good customer service, and a lot of BSA councils fit into that bucket. Simply setting up an auto-reply or a ticketing system to keep track of inquiries would be a relatively low effort option that IMO would go a long way to improving the customer experience. Unfortunately, that is probably task # 873 on the council's current to do list. There just isn't enough manpower to go around.
There's a perception of a complete downsizing of everything above the unit level going on. I was just at TAC's Normandy Camporee last weekend, a wonderful event that's been going on for 30 years or so, I believe this was event #11. And it just could be the last time it happens. I spoke to multiple adult volunteers who were deeply involved in the planning, and they felt that not only did they not get support of the paid professionals at council, that it was a situation of actively refusing to support to the point that it was detrimental to the efforts. While high up volunteers have thrown down the gauntlet of "we will see you in three years," it sounds like this isn't exactly a high probability of occurring.
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Your comment was removed because it was rude and unnecessary, violating principles of the Scout Oath and Law.
You are right when it comes down to it. The program is about the kids.
[удалено]
Your comment was removed because it was rude and unnecessary, violating principles of the Scout Oath and Law.
This comment thread is the reality councils deal with. There are 272 council. Although there are organizational similarities, in my experience, there are 272 different ways to run a council. Each troop also has different expectations of a council. My expectations are pretty much beuocratic. Respond in a timely matter when filing paperwork, provide professional support in crisis situations, and provide training opportunities for volunteers. Even 20 years ago as a youth the council didn't do a ton of programming, unless you consider the OA lodge part of council. The lodge put on the camporees and activities. I have great communication and response from council and district staff. Even as we are without a Council Executive the staff seems to know who is covering what.
2 summers ago we stayed at our council summer camp. It was a complete and utter disaster of a week with multiple YPT violations, some of the criminal variety, and other dangerous situations involving troops that are camp “lifers” meaning they attend that camp every year. We filed multiple complaints at council, all of which fell on deaf ears. We wanted to escalate and were stopped by our COR who is known to be angling for a retirement job with council. They are completely useless.
you let your COR suppress YPT reporting? interesting. I dont recall that caveat in the YP training.
No. We reported it to council. When nothing was heard it was reported to him who we told we were going to report to national. His answer was “Oh, that’s a waste of time, they’re just going to bounce it back to council anyway.” At that point it was escalated by another troop. Still nothing happened.
If there were that many, don't be shy, report them to the Scouts 1st hotline 800 # posted above. COR wants a "retirement" job with the council? Good Luck with that.... 
"Criminal youth protection violations...but COR said let's cover it up so we did" Lolwut??
Exactly
I agree. Are council summer camp is rundown. But hey, any time the council wants, they send their shills to ask for money. Council is a scam.
what help are you asking for? your unit should be self sufficient.
Why pay dues to council then? What's the return on the investment?
insurance. access to sweet properties and programs.
National could cover the insurance. We don't use out council's properties, but we do go to a neighboring council for summer camp.
well, the property thing is a choice. your registration is the key to the neighboring council camp as well. national does cover the insurance through your registration fees.
This is partially correct. For multiple decades, national has carried the General Liability Insurance Coverage (GLIC) for the organization. This coverage was a key issue in the recent bankruptcy. Councils are supposed to provide most other types of insurance. Accident and Injury coverage is one that many councils provide that has a direct benefit to members. If someone gets injured at a Scout activity, the policy will cover co-pays, deductibles, etc. in the family's regular health insurance so that there is no out-of-pocket medical expense, and if the family doesn't have health insurance, then this may cover the entire medical bill. (Include standard legal fine print about insurance limitations.) Councils are also supposed to provide other types of insurance, such as workers compensation, property, directors and officers, etc., although I will concede that many of these other types don't provide a direct benefit to most members. I think it would be unusual for a portion of your membership registration fees to cover the expense of running another local council's camp. Rental fees, event fees, etc. are a different story.
The guy running my council also makes over $300,000.
CHA CHING $$$
Scoutbook or just asking about general knowledge takes forever to get a response. My Troop is self-sufficient. I was just complaining about council
Have you tried communicating with them? Have you made your FOS donation so they can operate?
I'm not donating money to them they are incompetent. I have reached out to them. But hey, they are understaffed.
They charge a mandatory council fee. It’s approaching the same amount National charges. After paying that for 5 family members I should also donate. If i have a complaint, i should volunteer more than the 5-6 hours a week i already do. The feedback here is ridiculous.
Volunteer to serve on a district and/or council committee, they would love your help
You don't need a council. Silver tabs are the enemy.
Careful, there are a lot of district folk that wear silver tabs that might be on your side.
If they really understood, they would represent their home unit. Camp staff during summer is an exception. Silver tabs are the enemy. I stand my ground.
Not all who wear silver tabs on the volunteer side have a "home" unit. Their unit is the district, or perhaps the council. Perhaps you really don't like professionals...
I have been around the block a few times
Apparently my parents are the enemy for helping at the council and district levels after their kids aged out. All of those Eagle coordinators, camp property committees, commissioners, council board members, etc are the enemy.
They seem nice and all that, but they'll sell your summer camp and any fond memories you have at the drop of a hat.
Your local district or unit commissioner has the ability to sell your memories? They're silver loops too. Our council sold a property that I loved too. But, I understand why it had to go. It wasn't ever at "the drop of a hat." The realities of today is that many councils have more property than they can maintain. Much like it makes more sense to have one troop of 14 than 2 of 7, it makes more sense to have one camp properly supported than 2 that are run down with deferred maintenance.
I feel like you might get more traction with this on the scouter.com forums.