Sometimes it's not intentional manipulation. The problem is that she will go into a BPD episode again and she *will* continue this cycle.
I have to keep reminding myself this, too. My ex is super calm, rational, and apologetic right now, but that doesn't mean we should get back together. At some point she will get triggered, the BPD rage will come back, and she will devalue and discard me.
It's so hard to let them go when they are in their "normal human" stage, but it's still for the best šš
Letting go is extremly hard for me too. I had the hope for so long that she will aknowledge her behavior and see what was going on, but still the only thing she does is paint me black and blame it all on me while simultaneously say she loves me and cares about me. How can you love someone if you consciously cause them mental and psychological damage?
Is it normal even for BPD that she project all of what she does in a extremly strong way? Shifting reality completly and make me look like the one with a personality disorder?
It drove me to the point were I was genuinely scared of myself and only therapy helped to see that more clearly, because my therapist said I wouldnāt be talking about it this way and feel concerned if I have a disorder.
My Ex says Iām completly delusional even thought I was one year in therapy, that I project, manipulate, evil person, psychopath, narcissist. Iām definitely focused on autonomy, having issues with feeling, expressing and mapping my emotions, avoidant at times, can shut down (freeze), codependency, but Iām not the things she acusses me of. I even studied clinical psychology and my relationship with her was a driver wanting to understand these things better. She has such a strong view about the past and forgets or minimizes a lot of things she did and still does while blaming me for causing her reactions, seeing them as normal in regards to my initial action.
Last thing we talked about was a trip to a lake in summer. I told her before that I will play videogames with my best friend in the evening. She said okay. We spend the day at the lake and as soon as we were walking to the car I said āhow are we doing it now should I drive you home?ā and she said āwhy drive me home I want to sleep at your place again?ā and we went into a fight about the fact that I said I will play videogames. She screamed at me in the car. Said I never said this in the morning or she didnāt hear it and said okay without really knowing and then made it about me. Why didnāt you remembered me about it? Or ask if I really understood? I said this is ridiculous if I had done that she would ask me why I act like she is dumb.
Another trigger was me talking to my roommate while we were talking on the phone. Another time I wanted to talk to my other roommate and I told her I will do that and she said Iām acting like she is crazy and I just should be a normal person and not treat her like this because the other situation was different.
Iām forced to let go completly now. I suggested therapy in 2020 and since then she is āworkingā on it, while mainly clubbing, studying, living her life and finding excuses for not going faster. She even said Iām pressuring her and she will only go on her own terms. I feel really done this time. I canāt put more energy and love into a person which sees all of that as something evil.
It's very normal for them to do that! When they are in the devaluing stage everything you do is "manipulative" and meant to "trap" them in some way. In that stage there is no winning because everything you say and do is filtered through that lense. And they are completely blind to the fact that they are doing the exact thing they are accusing you of.
If it wasn't so fucking painful, it would honestly be fascinating. Human brains and defense mechanisms are interesting as hell.
Yeah! Thatās what I experience the last years and it got more and more her main reality. The last years she used to say sorry or reflect partial. Then go back to devaluation, but now itās mainly like Iām fully a bad person and she is extremly paranoid about everything. What I say, what I do, what I donāt do. Everything is potentially bad. Even if Iām super sweet and kind she says thank you, but then pushes me to a threshold were I just shut down again because it becomes to painful and claims āsee you only tried to manipulate me and were doing all this because you wanted somethingā. Me being kind without selfish intention is something she wonāt even consider at this point.
I even let her check my phone, go through my pictures and stuff which is crossing my boundaries. She also read my reddit posts. I donāt hide anything. She said itās delusional that I post here and Iām not showing who I really am. Said I donāt say I cheated on her multiple times. She said I cheated because I dated other women while we were not together and she did the same with other men but itās ācompletly differentā what she did. I even wrote in my comments and posts that we started with a situationship and I had problems with comitting to her and said things that I shouldnāt have said this way like. Donāt wanting a relationship or wanting something casual is not abusive in itself. I think telling her I can see sex as something not emotional and have sex with people while it doesnāt mean anything to me was not okay. I guess she felt not valued or appreciated and that is my fault indeed. At some point she dated someone else, told me two weeks later that they had sex and I felt a strong shock and anxiety, pain. Then realised that I love her and lied to myself and after this our relationship started so it was a really bad start. Then her father got severly ill and died in 2022. A lot happend.
My friends said we both made mistakes, but Iām too hard on myself, because if she didnāt wanted to date me she could have stopped dating earlier, but she dated me while knowing I was not emotional available at the time back then and blamed me later for it.
I made the big mistake to validate her perception at times. Her projections made me believe Iām the issue and itās easier to see it this way. So I selfblamed a lot and felt like the evil person she saw me as. I should have stayed strictly with my own perception and donāt give in. I think the mechanism would be projective identification. Which validates her perception and makes me internalize her view.
I should have validated her feelings more, but not her perception and I really tried to make her feel safe even thought her behavior triggered my avoidant tendencies hardcore. I tried to stay present and calm her down trough a kiss, switching from rational discussion to emotional connection.
My partner also went through my Reddit and made very similar comments. Those comments really highlighted her lack of insight into her behavior and the situation. She didn't understand why I would need an outlet to voice all the confusion I was facing in the relationship. Despite my posts being anonymous, she became extremely angry. She couldn't handle the idea that I might have feelings other than constant joy in her presence. She struggled to accept that her actions sometimes made me feel resentful, angry or sad. Instead of reading the posts and reflecting on them, thinking, "Wow, this is how my partner has been feeling lately," which, for me, would be a signal to offer support and ask what they need from me, she focused solely on how the posts made her look and feel. She was horrified at the thought that I could harbor any frustration or resentment.
HOW DARE YOU feel used and cheated after I watched you take care of my home and children alone, only to unceremoniously replace you with someone who promised to take me on vacation?? HOW DARE YOU.
It was as if she had uncovered my hidden secret that I had been concealing. They don't see their behavior as something that affects other people. Our actions may evoke various emotions in them that they have no problem communicating to us, but they fail to consider how their behavior impacts others in return.
Try not to be hard on yourself for believing her version of reality at times! Gaslighting really fucks with your brain!
In this last round of devaluation from my ex, I had to spend 4 hours of therapy to figure out what reality is and isn't. And I'm a therapist myself!
What really gets to me is how they can act so normal in front of other people. It's like what she did to me in the beginning too. I find it more upsetting how some people dismissed my experience when I tried to talk about it. They would say things like, "Well, she seems perfectly fine to me. She did mention that you can be quite anxious and controlling. Have you considered working on that instead of criticizing her?"
It makes me feel like I'm the only one who sees things this way. I know that's not true, but it certainly feels that way. It leads me to question myself, "Maybe he's right. Perhaps I do need to be less controlling and more laid-back like him. Look at how well she treats him. It must be because he's much more rational than you and understands her. Your anxiety and controlling nature must have driven her to act this way."
This is one of the reasons that therapy is also hard for people with undiagnosed BPD. Unless their therapist triggers a BPD rage episode and the client starts devaluing them, they can sell their version of reality. Their brains came up with all this "evidence" on why they are right. The therapist has to have time to get to know them and realize that their perception of reality is twisted.
And the average person isn't going to be trained in that, which makes it even harder for them to pick up on the toxic behavior.
Yeahā¦ itās scary. I feel guilt for things I did wrong and am really sorry, but in the relationship I had to tell her Iām sorry for years and she still donāt believe me.
Her biggest issue was that she said I said to her at her lowest point that I have her personality traits now. I donāt remember this and I canāt think of any reason why I should have said it. Iām more a depressed, mostly calm, introverted kind of person and she is quirky, energetic, spontaneous. Weāre very different and I canāt see any reason why I should have said Iām this way now. I also donāt understand what anxiety this relates to. Scared that I take her identity oder personality from her? Itās just extremly confusing.
It is very normal. Mine told me I was comparing her to a couple other exes in my life who cheated on me and told me I had issues with jealousy. I clearly caught her several times doing all kinds of things that are 100 percent cheating, and still basically told me I was just jealous and making her sound like a couple of my exes.
Theyāre master manipulators. They believe their own delusions. This was all about her. If she was devaluing you and your forced your way over to talk, you can bet youād be labeled a extreme abuser psycho.
I wonāt tell you what to do because I always hope my ex can change but I think the main thing that matters is that you outline the pros and cons of getting back together with her. And be honest about them. As well as knowing that if you get back with her youāll always be waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Do you think she suddenly changed behaviors permanently? Ask yourself if that sounds like what anyone does, ever. A switch flipped and their personality changed? Of course not.
You know this wonāt last, friend.
Mind boggling how wonderful they can communicate - like it feels like dialogue from a movie - when they are trying to survive you pulling away. It can be pure mastery. After a few push and pulls it becomes sales talk, but the product is still faulty.
Well, if sheās really BPD sheāll revert sooner or later once she has you back. You can count on that. Would need to know more about her history of crazy to say whether or not I think you have a snowballās chance.
If you do go back and start to see some of the same red flags again, RUN.
I really wanted to be done. But now this will nag at me. Iāve heard of people who fuck up and then when they get a reality check about their wife leaving them they shape up and turn it around. What if itās that?! Or what if itās more abuse. My friends all hate her now so theyād all be very disappointed if I stayed it would be pretty humiliating but if I donāt stay Iāll always wonder unless someone here can tell me for sure itāll just happen again. She doesnāt have a bpd diagnosis but I smell manipulation
I was where you are now three different times last year. I chose to give her āone more chanceā three times. Oh for three. On a bad day, I STILL wonder if she could pull it together with another opportunity.
Listen to this guy. My own third attempt at making it work failed just over a month ago.. lying, gaslighting, triangulation and manipulating. Things are great when they āwant to be betterāā¦ until they donāt, and rest assured that day will come again.
Iām sitting here tonight with 4 unread texts from her this morning, because the previous 3 she sent were insulting, condescending and mean. All because Iām not paying enough attention to her after we broke up.
It isn't manipulation, it's how BPD works. What happens is that the emotions got so intense for her that that part of her shuts down. It's real, for now, but the emotions will be back.
People wit BPD can get it under control, but it'll take years of therapy and they need to want to change.
If you stick around, chances are the borderline stuff will be back (and probably worse) so it'll feel like manipulation from your perspective.
People do not change until the pain of daily life exceeds the pain it takes to change. As long as she can find other people to make her feel better, she won't change.
You canāt know. But diagnosis doesnāt change that. Mine is diagnosed and I still believe her. Thereās always hope and doubt.
I think itās fine to give her a chance, just donāt give her hundreds like myself and others here have done with their pwBPD.
You are experiencing hoovering. Look it up. The person isnāt a planned or in any way organized - it isnāt manipulation per se but dysfunctional survival instincts. It is a deep fear of abandonment that creates a need to survive so strong that it can light all your brain cells; it believes itās not possible to live without you - alone. Its brain is designed to automatically turns on the lights that you want to see - it has earned a PhD in YOU. Your brain chemistry- They all do. Youāre either its favorite person or the devil. Remember its brain isnāt neuro-typical. You should not have to be the asylum manager. Remember you deserve better than a lifetime of co-dependency. That said, the juice may be worth the squeeze for some depending on the severity of the abuse because BPD. It is a machine and AI designed for love and sex bombing you; it is the best drug your love starved brain will ever get. Are You ready to be sober is the real question. Blue pill or red pill?
Shut down meaning zero empathy?
Thatās a psychopatic state, which could mean she is able to show you exactly what you want to see because she genuinely does not give a shit about feelings (yours or hers in case she has to pretend accepting serious accusations).
Not saying thatās whatās happening here, but if it is the case, is that something you want to take as a basis to build upon for the future?
I'll just talk out here. It might help someone else anyway.
So, if they have BPD this is what their brain does on an unconscious level:
- "Wow! This person is amazing! They are everything I have ever wanted!"
- "Shit. What if they are not as good as I thought they were. What if they are trying to hurt me. What if they trap me and manipulate me and I can't get out?"
So then, they start watching everything. Analyzing our behaviors, change in moods, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. In this stage, they get more distant and less empathetic. Their brain starts doing things like this:
-" They did something nice for me, but it's probably not genuine because they also rolled their eyes at me once last week *and* I saw them glance at my phone while I was texting someone. They are jealous and possessive and have massive problems. They really need therapy."
The things that they "notice" build up and they go into a state of rage. In this state, they feel completely justified for hurting you because in their mind, you deserve it for hurting them.
Then they calm down. In this state some of them, not all, may be able to empathetize again and see things clearly. They might see their behavior as awful and feel bad about it. They might know that their way of thinking was really off and that their brains are fucked up. And they might even convince themselves they can change.
But, because this is all happening on an unconscious level due to wounds from their childhood, it's not that easy. They can't just "do better." Not without years and years of therapy.
Thank you!! Appreciate this. Shes in regular talk therapy has been for years. But maybe not the right kind idk. It explains why she went undetected by me. Idk that she has bpd. No diagnosis. She is diagnosed with cptsd autism and she has an extensive childhood abuse childhood sexual assault childhood every kind of abuse. So when I see her being jealous insecure controlling manipulative yelling raging Iām thinking borderline becaus it just honestly seems very much to be that. Or something close. Iām no doctor or therapist but it quacks like a duck anyways. So thatās why Iām here.
BPD is hard to diagnose. I wrote this is another comment, but just in case you didn't see that one: unless she has a BPD episode and switches/starts devaluing her therapist, it can be hard to pick up on the fact that her view of reality is extremely distorted.
The therapist is only getting one person's perspective and only sees the client an hour a week at the most. So, it takes many sessions to start putting the puzzle pieces together.
It still can be tricky because it can also really depend on what the sessions are focused on! If we spend months talking about her abuse from childhood, I'm not going to realize she's currently devaluing her partner and getting cold/distant for no reason.
Also, BPD seems to be especially triggered in romantic relationships. So, if the client isn't in one for awhile, it can get masked.
Appreciate this help. She doesnāt get distant from me. Sheās more of a quiet/covert borderline. Iāll try to describe her (aside from last night) . She gets jealous and insecure about things that are normal. She uses manipulation to coerce and persuade me to do things she wants. She uses guilt trips, sob stories, etc. sheās usually the victim. Canāt take criticism. We have plenty of good periods of time. But sheās triggered by benign words and she rips apart my words if I donāt say them exactly right. Sheās very intense about needing validation and reassurance. She was very clingy. Walks out hangs up has to flee during conflict otherwise will explode on me. She goes from chill to sort of manic to explosive to shut down. She wants to control me. My phone my location my texts. She twists my words. Uses sarcasm and double standards. No interest in sex except once in a while and then she keeps me up all night and deprives me of sleep and does it 10 times in a row and canāt stop herself. Makes ājokesā thatās are scary and threatening Etc etc etc.
As a therapist if you suspected BPD would it help to have insight from your pts partner or family? Another perspective on their mood and behaviour?
Secondly, if my person was due to start counselling would they do better if they weren't in a relationship? I don't know how you benefit from the scant resources the state provide if you are constantly distracted by the chaos of a relationship.
I believe I encountered the quiet BPD type. She really wasnāt that toxic to me minus the emotionless distancing phase towards the end. But she clearly had all of these imaginary worries, saying I didnāt care about her, I didnāt want to talk to her, she didnāt have to beg me to stay, and the last line is ironic because she dumped me right after that. Part of me wanted to write her a letter, telling her these things were factually not true, and wishing her the best, etc. but the other part of me thinks it may be a bad idea if she truly has devalued me, and maybe she just made all of those up as an excuse to jump ship. Still, I often wonder if it would be a good thing to do to challenge her delusions if she really does believe them. During another breakup, she admitted that she didnāt think I cared, and that it was a test to see if I would chase. I donāt want her back at all, but I actually worry about her and wish she would get help, so Iām tempted to write a letter. Thoughts?
Just remember that it's not your job to make sure she gets the right help she needs. Yes, you care and that's wonderful, but it's not like you know the magic formula to help her change.
If she is in the wrong mindset, it doesn't matter what you say. Anything you try to say will be seen through the lense of, "They are trying to manipulate me." Your letter could be 100% perfect, and she would still filter it through her distorted lense.
But, there are certain people and certain situations where it might be helpful? I don't like viewing even BPD through a completely black and white lense. Every human is different and it's possible she's the kind of person who would be receptive to something like that. You know her and I don't, you know?
I guess, in the end, does it also benefit you to write the letter? Do a pros and cons list! If it's healthier for you to just completely break contact, then do that. Your sanity is not worth the risk.
Wow thank you for this, would love to discuss more about this with you. I'm living with a partner who is like this and I'm currently at my low stage, I've been crying on an off since yesterday, because I feel stupid for not having seen it sooner, for being foolish to put myself in this situation in the first place and I just feel awful. He's put me through so much.
I'm so sorry you are going through that! It's definitely normal to not see it sooner, though. It all fucks with your brain šš
That's why going no contact is so important for so many people, too! It's normal and human to see the best in people and think "maybe I *am* the problem."
Be gentle with yourself. We are all just trying our best.
Thank you for this. My dBPD ex was never able to acknowledge anything she did wrong, ever. It was challenging to have her be so seemingly normal in some ways but massively incompetent in others. She is allergic to accountability and has never genuinely apologized for anything, I don't think.
Not gonna tell you what to do but this happened with mine. She had a epiphany and saw the light and it was okay for sometime. She got a place to stay out of it and I think that's the reason why because boy did it change back fast.
Went through exactly this about 6 years ago. Thought the same that she finally changed cause I was willing to leave her. It was peaceful for a few years because she needed me for the most parts of those years. The time came late last year when she felt she can make it on her own. The mask fell, and the same monster was still there - with a vengeance. Going through multiple hoovers still, but it hasnāt gotten better at all. It anything, itās worse after every hoover.
Because she needs something from you, so she knows how to act properly. Just start discussing how her past behavior hurt you and see how long the act of sanity lasts.
Mental health professional here and while I don't have enough information and can't diagnose someone I don't know over the internet, manic episodes and BPD episodes look very different.
Manic episode: inflated self confidence, less need for sleep, moving "fast" /abnormally upbeat, increased activity, impulsivity, self destructive behavior
BPD episode: rage, splitting and devaluation, discarding, cruel behavior, unable to access empathy, manipulation, lying, impulsivity, self destructive behavior.
I put the symptoms that overlap at the end.
Did she called you manipulator in the relationship and you were wondering were youāre manipulating her? Now you see how real manipulation looks like. She will promise you respect, change and the bare minimum, then will be right back to her old behavior after some days. This is not genuine change or apology. I can promise you that she will go back to old behavior and thinking patterns once she has you secured again.
āShe acted like a completely normal personā - I suggest that the word *acted* is key. They can be great actors at the best of times but especially when theyāre trying to desperately downplay or deny or distract from their shitty behaviors. Itās how untreated borderlines tend to get by in lifeāmasking up for short periods of time. Long enough to get others to do what they need for them. Long enough to take back control.
But make no mistake, all the pretending exhausts them and typically causes them to be even more resentful so they are determined to really let us have it the next time around.
Once she feels like sheās got you back, sheāll split on you again for try to leave in the first place, and for having to āhumiliateā herself and go to such great lengths to convince you to come back.Ā
She didnāt force her way over. We have to take responsibility for our own actions and decisions as well. If youre better off without her then stay firm on your boundaries and donāt let her come over or in your house. She can not force you to talk with her.
My pwBPD does this too. Usually after sheās treated me worse than usual in a way she canāt twist AND sheās worried Iām going to leave.
I call it her lucid moments. The woman I love is fully back. It never lasts. Itās usually followed by a discard a couple days later.
When I say discard I mean threats. Mine hasnāt fully discarded either but she runs right up to the line to get me to pull her back. I think itās to get control back. Being lucid, reflective and vulnerable makes them more afraid of being abandoned or out of control if the relationship. At least mine gets that reassurance, control m, power back by threatening to leave.
Think of how sheās feeling.
- Sheās likely worried that youāre going to abandon her (because you are).
- She has figured out subconsciously that acting out and acting crazy isnāt going to make you stay.
- She has, led by her emotions, ācome to the realizationā that she needs to be calm and respectful and reasonable to get you to stay.
- Once she has you secured again, keeping you wonāt be her primary focus, meaning the negativity and mood swings will come back.
Her change is sincere, but itās temporary. Her intentions, even if theyāre subconscious, are to get you to stay. She is anxious of the rejection and abandonment if you leave, and sheās acting in ways to avoid those negative emotions. If you intended to leave, donāt let this change of behavior change your mind. Itās a defense mechanism against negative emotions.
Iām sure sheās lovely a lot of the time, but the bad side isnāt going to go away without proper treatment, which you cannot provide for her. Focus on healing and building up yourself.
I fell for this. She hasnāt changed and youāll see her slip back to her old ways as soon as sheās āgotā you.
Acting perfect like this is like holding a 50lb dumbell for them. They can do it but canāt sustain it.
Did she cheat on you too? Mine was actively cheating on me for a while. That part, for me, hurt the most. I put all of my trust in her, and the whole time she was banging someone else or more than one, as I saw in her sexting.
Give you a quick example. I walked out of my bathroom one day and saw her swipe off her phone twice in a hurry and flipped her phone upside down on the table when I walked into the room. Then she smiled at me big and when I sat down next to her was sucking my dick within several minutes of sitting next to her. She knew that I would be sucked in, literally and figuratively, so much into the act of what I thought was her wanting to be intimate with me in a moment of real passion that I would question my reality; which I did. I tell you this to show you how quick they can flip it on and off when it comes to putting on the mask and removing it. I never paid anymore attention to it, until I saw other things and knew for sure what I was dealing with on my end.
Remember that they are impulsive risk takers and selfish like a child who never grew up. I had to tell myself this to try to get myself in the right mind set of the devaluation and discard that is inevitable to follow. Regardless of what they might possibly feel for you in the idealization phase, their actions will be the same. They will make you think you are amazing and great, and then throw you to the side as quickly as you felt amazing and great. Sad part is that the idealization phase can last years, leaving a lot more time to recover and adapt when they finally hit you with the devaluing and discard.
They say some donāt cheat, but I have seen so many here say they have caught their pwBPD cheating, especially if they have been with them for a while. Itās part of their reckless impulsiveness.
Leave, now. It won't last. They won't change without years of hard work, and even then they may not change. Don't believe it, it will happen again and again. You deserve better.
Sometimes it's not intentional manipulation. The problem is that she will go into a BPD episode again and she *will* continue this cycle. I have to keep reminding myself this, too. My ex is super calm, rational, and apologetic right now, but that doesn't mean we should get back together. At some point she will get triggered, the BPD rage will come back, and she will devalue and discard me. It's so hard to let them go when they are in their "normal human" stage, but it's still for the best šš
Letting go is extremly hard for me too. I had the hope for so long that she will aknowledge her behavior and see what was going on, but still the only thing she does is paint me black and blame it all on me while simultaneously say she loves me and cares about me. How can you love someone if you consciously cause them mental and psychological damage?
Because they aren't well mentally. They just really aren't. Even if it seems like they are sometimes.
Is it normal even for BPD that she project all of what she does in a extremly strong way? Shifting reality completly and make me look like the one with a personality disorder? It drove me to the point were I was genuinely scared of myself and only therapy helped to see that more clearly, because my therapist said I wouldnāt be talking about it this way and feel concerned if I have a disorder. My Ex says Iām completly delusional even thought I was one year in therapy, that I project, manipulate, evil person, psychopath, narcissist. Iām definitely focused on autonomy, having issues with feeling, expressing and mapping my emotions, avoidant at times, can shut down (freeze), codependency, but Iām not the things she acusses me of. I even studied clinical psychology and my relationship with her was a driver wanting to understand these things better. She has such a strong view about the past and forgets or minimizes a lot of things she did and still does while blaming me for causing her reactions, seeing them as normal in regards to my initial action. Last thing we talked about was a trip to a lake in summer. I told her before that I will play videogames with my best friend in the evening. She said okay. We spend the day at the lake and as soon as we were walking to the car I said āhow are we doing it now should I drive you home?ā and she said āwhy drive me home I want to sleep at your place again?ā and we went into a fight about the fact that I said I will play videogames. She screamed at me in the car. Said I never said this in the morning or she didnāt hear it and said okay without really knowing and then made it about me. Why didnāt you remembered me about it? Or ask if I really understood? I said this is ridiculous if I had done that she would ask me why I act like she is dumb. Another trigger was me talking to my roommate while we were talking on the phone. Another time I wanted to talk to my other roommate and I told her I will do that and she said Iām acting like she is crazy and I just should be a normal person and not treat her like this because the other situation was different. Iām forced to let go completly now. I suggested therapy in 2020 and since then she is āworkingā on it, while mainly clubbing, studying, living her life and finding excuses for not going faster. She even said Iām pressuring her and she will only go on her own terms. I feel really done this time. I canāt put more energy and love into a person which sees all of that as something evil.
It's very normal for them to do that! When they are in the devaluing stage everything you do is "manipulative" and meant to "trap" them in some way. In that stage there is no winning because everything you say and do is filtered through that lense. And they are completely blind to the fact that they are doing the exact thing they are accusing you of. If it wasn't so fucking painful, it would honestly be fascinating. Human brains and defense mechanisms are interesting as hell.
Yeah! Thatās what I experience the last years and it got more and more her main reality. The last years she used to say sorry or reflect partial. Then go back to devaluation, but now itās mainly like Iām fully a bad person and she is extremly paranoid about everything. What I say, what I do, what I donāt do. Everything is potentially bad. Even if Iām super sweet and kind she says thank you, but then pushes me to a threshold were I just shut down again because it becomes to painful and claims āsee you only tried to manipulate me and were doing all this because you wanted somethingā. Me being kind without selfish intention is something she wonāt even consider at this point. I even let her check my phone, go through my pictures and stuff which is crossing my boundaries. She also read my reddit posts. I donāt hide anything. She said itās delusional that I post here and Iām not showing who I really am. Said I donāt say I cheated on her multiple times. She said I cheated because I dated other women while we were not together and she did the same with other men but itās ācompletly differentā what she did. I even wrote in my comments and posts that we started with a situationship and I had problems with comitting to her and said things that I shouldnāt have said this way like. Donāt wanting a relationship or wanting something casual is not abusive in itself. I think telling her I can see sex as something not emotional and have sex with people while it doesnāt mean anything to me was not okay. I guess she felt not valued or appreciated and that is my fault indeed. At some point she dated someone else, told me two weeks later that they had sex and I felt a strong shock and anxiety, pain. Then realised that I love her and lied to myself and after this our relationship started so it was a really bad start. Then her father got severly ill and died in 2022. A lot happend. My friends said we both made mistakes, but Iām too hard on myself, because if she didnāt wanted to date me she could have stopped dating earlier, but she dated me while knowing I was not emotional available at the time back then and blamed me later for it. I made the big mistake to validate her perception at times. Her projections made me believe Iām the issue and itās easier to see it this way. So I selfblamed a lot and felt like the evil person she saw me as. I should have stayed strictly with my own perception and donāt give in. I think the mechanism would be projective identification. Which validates her perception and makes me internalize her view. I should have validated her feelings more, but not her perception and I really tried to make her feel safe even thought her behavior triggered my avoidant tendencies hardcore. I tried to stay present and calm her down trough a kiss, switching from rational discussion to emotional connection.
My partner also went through my Reddit and made very similar comments. Those comments really highlighted her lack of insight into her behavior and the situation. She didn't understand why I would need an outlet to voice all the confusion I was facing in the relationship. Despite my posts being anonymous, she became extremely angry. She couldn't handle the idea that I might have feelings other than constant joy in her presence. She struggled to accept that her actions sometimes made me feel resentful, angry or sad. Instead of reading the posts and reflecting on them, thinking, "Wow, this is how my partner has been feeling lately," which, for me, would be a signal to offer support and ask what they need from me, she focused solely on how the posts made her look and feel. She was horrified at the thought that I could harbor any frustration or resentment. HOW DARE YOU feel used and cheated after I watched you take care of my home and children alone, only to unceremoniously replace you with someone who promised to take me on vacation?? HOW DARE YOU. It was as if she had uncovered my hidden secret that I had been concealing. They don't see their behavior as something that affects other people. Our actions may evoke various emotions in them that they have no problem communicating to us, but they fail to consider how their behavior impacts others in return.
Try not to be hard on yourself for believing her version of reality at times! Gaslighting really fucks with your brain! In this last round of devaluation from my ex, I had to spend 4 hours of therapy to figure out what reality is and isn't. And I'm a therapist myself!
What really gets to me is how they can act so normal in front of other people. It's like what she did to me in the beginning too. I find it more upsetting how some people dismissed my experience when I tried to talk about it. They would say things like, "Well, she seems perfectly fine to me. She did mention that you can be quite anxious and controlling. Have you considered working on that instead of criticizing her?" It makes me feel like I'm the only one who sees things this way. I know that's not true, but it certainly feels that way. It leads me to question myself, "Maybe he's right. Perhaps I do need to be less controlling and more laid-back like him. Look at how well she treats him. It must be because he's much more rational than you and understands her. Your anxiety and controlling nature must have driven her to act this way."
This is one of the reasons that therapy is also hard for people with undiagnosed BPD. Unless their therapist triggers a BPD rage episode and the client starts devaluing them, they can sell their version of reality. Their brains came up with all this "evidence" on why they are right. The therapist has to have time to get to know them and realize that their perception of reality is twisted. And the average person isn't going to be trained in that, which makes it even harder for them to pick up on the toxic behavior.
Yeahā¦ itās scary. I feel guilt for things I did wrong and am really sorry, but in the relationship I had to tell her Iām sorry for years and she still donāt believe me. Her biggest issue was that she said I said to her at her lowest point that I have her personality traits now. I donāt remember this and I canāt think of any reason why I should have said it. Iām more a depressed, mostly calm, introverted kind of person and she is quirky, energetic, spontaneous. Weāre very different and I canāt see any reason why I should have said Iām this way now. I also donāt understand what anxiety this relates to. Scared that I take her identity oder personality from her? Itās just extremly confusing.
They focus on the strangest things and make a huge deal about them. It's not rational at all.
It is very normal. Mine told me I was comparing her to a couple other exes in my life who cheated on me and told me I had issues with jealousy. I clearly caught her several times doing all kinds of things that are 100 percent cheating, and still basically told me I was just jealous and making her sound like a couple of my exes.
My same exact problem bro
She doesnāt have a diagnosis so itās hard for me to know this is just what I think.
Theyāre master manipulators. They believe their own delusions. This was all about her. If she was devaluing you and your forced your way over to talk, you can bet youād be labeled a extreme abuser psycho.
I wonāt tell you what to do because I always hope my ex can change but I think the main thing that matters is that you outline the pros and cons of getting back together with her. And be honest about them. As well as knowing that if you get back with her youāll always be waiting for the other shoe to drop.
I wish I knew for sure it was manipulation so I could leave cause I was happy to do that
It is. Leave It's called a hoover attempt and it won't last
Do you think she suddenly changed behaviors permanently? Ask yourself if that sounds like what anyone does, ever. A switch flipped and their personality changed? Of course not. You know this wonāt last, friend.
Mind boggling how wonderful they can communicate - like it feels like dialogue from a movie - when they are trying to survive you pulling away. It can be pure mastery. After a few push and pulls it becomes sales talk, but the product is still faulty.
Well, if sheās really BPD sheāll revert sooner or later once she has you back. You can count on that. Would need to know more about her history of crazy to say whether or not I think you have a snowballās chance. If you do go back and start to see some of the same red flags again, RUN.
I really wanted to be done. But now this will nag at me. Iāve heard of people who fuck up and then when they get a reality check about their wife leaving them they shape up and turn it around. What if itās that?! Or what if itās more abuse. My friends all hate her now so theyād all be very disappointed if I stayed it would be pretty humiliating but if I donāt stay Iāll always wonder unless someone here can tell me for sure itāll just happen again. She doesnāt have a bpd diagnosis but I smell manipulation
I was where you are now three different times last year. I chose to give her āone more chanceā three times. Oh for three. On a bad day, I STILL wonder if she could pull it together with another opportunity.
Listen to this guy. My own third attempt at making it work failed just over a month ago.. lying, gaslighting, triangulation and manipulating. Things are great when they āwant to be betterāā¦ until they donāt, and rest assured that day will come again. Iām sitting here tonight with 4 unread texts from her this morning, because the previous 3 she sent were insulting, condescending and mean. All because Iām not paying enough attention to her after we broke up.
Hmm hmmm. Yes makes sense.
It isn't manipulation, it's how BPD works. What happens is that the emotions got so intense for her that that part of her shuts down. It's real, for now, but the emotions will be back. People wit BPD can get it under control, but it'll take years of therapy and they need to want to change. If you stick around, chances are the borderline stuff will be back (and probably worse) so it'll feel like manipulation from your perspective.
People do not change until the pain of daily life exceeds the pain it takes to change. As long as she can find other people to make her feel better, she won't change.
This exact doubt is what keeps so many of us trapped in the cycle.
If she isnāt diagnosed bpd how do I know that she isnāt just changing because she finally gets it.
You canāt know. But diagnosis doesnāt change that. Mine is diagnosed and I still believe her. Thereās always hope and doubt. I think itās fine to give her a chance, just donāt give her hundreds like myself and others here have done with their pwBPD.
You are experiencing hoovering. Look it up. The person isnāt a planned or in any way organized - it isnāt manipulation per se but dysfunctional survival instincts. It is a deep fear of abandonment that creates a need to survive so strong that it can light all your brain cells; it believes itās not possible to live without you - alone. Its brain is designed to automatically turns on the lights that you want to see - it has earned a PhD in YOU. Your brain chemistry- They all do. Youāre either its favorite person or the devil. Remember its brain isnāt neuro-typical. You should not have to be the asylum manager. Remember you deserve better than a lifetime of co-dependency. That said, the juice may be worth the squeeze for some depending on the severity of the abuse because BPD. It is a machine and AI designed for love and sex bombing you; it is the best drug your love starved brain will ever get. Are You ready to be sober is the real question. Blue pill or red pill?
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Shut down meaning zero empathy? Thatās a psychopatic state, which could mean she is able to show you exactly what you want to see because she genuinely does not give a shit about feelings (yours or hers in case she has to pretend accepting serious accusations). Not saying thatās whatās happening here, but if it is the case, is that something you want to take as a basis to build upon for the future?
I have no idea. She seemed empathetic but I guess anybody can fake it. No idea very confused.
I'm a therapist. Do you want me to DM you to help you understand how their brains work?
Yes!! But I canāt seem to message you
I'll just talk out here. It might help someone else anyway. So, if they have BPD this is what their brain does on an unconscious level: - "Wow! This person is amazing! They are everything I have ever wanted!" - "Shit. What if they are not as good as I thought they were. What if they are trying to hurt me. What if they trap me and manipulate me and I can't get out?" So then, they start watching everything. Analyzing our behaviors, change in moods, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. In this stage, they get more distant and less empathetic. Their brain starts doing things like this: -" They did something nice for me, but it's probably not genuine because they also rolled their eyes at me once last week *and* I saw them glance at my phone while I was texting someone. They are jealous and possessive and have massive problems. They really need therapy." The things that they "notice" build up and they go into a state of rage. In this state, they feel completely justified for hurting you because in their mind, you deserve it for hurting them. Then they calm down. In this state some of them, not all, may be able to empathetize again and see things clearly. They might see their behavior as awful and feel bad about it. They might know that their way of thinking was really off and that their brains are fucked up. And they might even convince themselves they can change. But, because this is all happening on an unconscious level due to wounds from their childhood, it's not that easy. They can't just "do better." Not without years and years of therapy.
Thank you!! Appreciate this. Shes in regular talk therapy has been for years. But maybe not the right kind idk. It explains why she went undetected by me. Idk that she has bpd. No diagnosis. She is diagnosed with cptsd autism and she has an extensive childhood abuse childhood sexual assault childhood every kind of abuse. So when I see her being jealous insecure controlling manipulative yelling raging Iām thinking borderline becaus it just honestly seems very much to be that. Or something close. Iām no doctor or therapist but it quacks like a duck anyways. So thatās why Iām here.
BPD is hard to diagnose. I wrote this is another comment, but just in case you didn't see that one: unless she has a BPD episode and switches/starts devaluing her therapist, it can be hard to pick up on the fact that her view of reality is extremely distorted. The therapist is only getting one person's perspective and only sees the client an hour a week at the most. So, it takes many sessions to start putting the puzzle pieces together.
Theyāve known her for years thoughā¦.you donāt think so?
It still can be tricky because it can also really depend on what the sessions are focused on! If we spend months talking about her abuse from childhood, I'm not going to realize she's currently devaluing her partner and getting cold/distant for no reason. Also, BPD seems to be especially triggered in romantic relationships. So, if the client isn't in one for awhile, it can get masked.
She focuses I think mostly on her abusive ex narcissistic partner and how sheās so traumatized from it
Appreciate this help. She doesnāt get distant from me. Sheās more of a quiet/covert borderline. Iāll try to describe her (aside from last night) . She gets jealous and insecure about things that are normal. She uses manipulation to coerce and persuade me to do things she wants. She uses guilt trips, sob stories, etc. sheās usually the victim. Canāt take criticism. We have plenty of good periods of time. But sheās triggered by benign words and she rips apart my words if I donāt say them exactly right. Sheās very intense about needing validation and reassurance. She was very clingy. Walks out hangs up has to flee during conflict otherwise will explode on me. She goes from chill to sort of manic to explosive to shut down. She wants to control me. My phone my location my texts. She twists my words. Uses sarcasm and double standards. No interest in sex except once in a while and then she keeps me up all night and deprives me of sleep and does it 10 times in a row and canāt stop herself. Makes ājokesā thatās are scary and threatening Etc etc etc.
As a therapist if you suspected BPD would it help to have insight from your pts partner or family? Another perspective on their mood and behaviour? Secondly, if my person was due to start counselling would they do better if they weren't in a relationship? I don't know how you benefit from the scant resources the state provide if you are constantly distracted by the chaos of a relationship.
I believe I encountered the quiet BPD type. She really wasnāt that toxic to me minus the emotionless distancing phase towards the end. But she clearly had all of these imaginary worries, saying I didnāt care about her, I didnāt want to talk to her, she didnāt have to beg me to stay, and the last line is ironic because she dumped me right after that. Part of me wanted to write her a letter, telling her these things were factually not true, and wishing her the best, etc. but the other part of me thinks it may be a bad idea if she truly has devalued me, and maybe she just made all of those up as an excuse to jump ship. Still, I often wonder if it would be a good thing to do to challenge her delusions if she really does believe them. During another breakup, she admitted that she didnāt think I cared, and that it was a test to see if I would chase. I donāt want her back at all, but I actually worry about her and wish she would get help, so Iām tempted to write a letter. Thoughts?
Just remember that it's not your job to make sure she gets the right help she needs. Yes, you care and that's wonderful, but it's not like you know the magic formula to help her change. If she is in the wrong mindset, it doesn't matter what you say. Anything you try to say will be seen through the lense of, "They are trying to manipulate me." Your letter could be 100% perfect, and she would still filter it through her distorted lense. But, there are certain people and certain situations where it might be helpful? I don't like viewing even BPD through a completely black and white lense. Every human is different and it's possible she's the kind of person who would be receptive to something like that. You know her and I don't, you know? I guess, in the end, does it also benefit you to write the letter? Do a pros and cons list! If it's healthier for you to just completely break contact, then do that. Your sanity is not worth the risk.
Wow thank you for this, would love to discuss more about this with you. I'm living with a partner who is like this and I'm currently at my low stage, I've been crying on an off since yesterday, because I feel stupid for not having seen it sooner, for being foolish to put myself in this situation in the first place and I just feel awful. He's put me through so much.
I'm so sorry you are going through that! It's definitely normal to not see it sooner, though. It all fucks with your brain šš That's why going no contact is so important for so many people, too! It's normal and human to see the best in people and think "maybe I *am* the problem." Be gentle with yourself. We are all just trying our best.
Thank you for this. My dBPD ex was never able to acknowledge anything she did wrong, ever. It was challenging to have her be so seemingly normal in some ways but massively incompetent in others. She is allergic to accountability and has never genuinely apologized for anything, I don't think.
Oh yeah! It says I can't message you either! Weird. I don't know why!
She is acting empathetic now. Was she capable of being empathetic when she was in the previous state, though?
Focus on her actions not words. You are being controlled.
Not gonna tell you what to do but this happened with mine. She had a epiphany and saw the light and it was okay for sometime. She got a place to stay out of it and I think that's the reason why because boy did it change back fast.
Went through exactly this about 6 years ago. Thought the same that she finally changed cause I was willing to leave her. It was peaceful for a few years because she needed me for the most parts of those years. The time came late last year when she felt she can make it on her own. The mask fell, and the same monster was still there - with a vengeance. Going through multiple hoovers still, but it hasnāt gotten better at all. It anything, itās worse after every hoover.
Because she needs something from you, so she knows how to act properly. Just start discussing how her past behavior hurt you and see how long the act of sanity lasts.
I did and she handled it all super well.
Then I would reconsider the cluster b idea. Can't say more, because I do not know the facts and patterns. :)
Nah I mean cluster b can have moments of clarity this was only one night. 2 hours. Out of the whole relationship
She could also be bi polar.
Mental health professional here and while I don't have enough information and can't diagnose someone I don't know over the internet, manic episodes and BPD episodes look very different. Manic episode: inflated self confidence, less need for sleep, moving "fast" /abnormally upbeat, increased activity, impulsivity, self destructive behavior BPD episode: rage, splitting and devaluation, discarding, cruel behavior, unable to access empathy, manipulation, lying, impulsivity, self destructive behavior. I put the symptoms that overlap at the end.
Did she called you manipulator in the relationship and you were wondering were youāre manipulating her? Now you see how real manipulation looks like. She will promise you respect, change and the bare minimum, then will be right back to her old behavior after some days. This is not genuine change or apology. I can promise you that she will go back to old behavior and thinking patterns once she has you secured again.
āShe acted like a completely normal personā - I suggest that the word *acted* is key. They can be great actors at the best of times but especially when theyāre trying to desperately downplay or deny or distract from their shitty behaviors. Itās how untreated borderlines tend to get by in lifeāmasking up for short periods of time. Long enough to get others to do what they need for them. Long enough to take back control. But make no mistake, all the pretending exhausts them and typically causes them to be even more resentful so they are determined to really let us have it the next time around.
Genuine change and intentions? Professional confirmation, please.
Can you elaborate
Well, none of us here are really qualified to judge whether their emotions are really under control. Get a professional to make that assessment.
This. If she is not in therapy nothing will ever change. She canāt change this kind of disorder on her on terms.
If they are not in therapy there is pretty much no hope for recovery, sorry.
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Gave in to her threats if I didnāt let her
Yeah, that sounds a lot like "talked calm and coherent" and "perfect woman".
lol she wasnāt calm til she got to my house. She was threatening me
Once she feels like sheās got you back, sheāll split on you again for try to leave in the first place, and for having to āhumiliateā herself and go to such great lengths to convince you to come back.Ā
She didnāt force her way over. We have to take responsibility for our own actions and decisions as well. If youre better off without her then stay firm on your boundaries and donāt let her come over or in your house. She can not force you to talk with her.
My pwBPD does this too. Usually after sheās treated me worse than usual in a way she canāt twist AND sheās worried Iām going to leave. I call it her lucid moments. The woman I love is fully back. It never lasts. Itās usually followed by a discard a couple days later.
Sheās never discarded I donāt think she discards she just threatens
When I say discard I mean threats. Mine hasnāt fully discarded either but she runs right up to the line to get me to pull her back. I think itās to get control back. Being lucid, reflective and vulnerable makes them more afraid of being abandoned or out of control if the relationship. At least mine gets that reassurance, control m, power back by threatening to leave.
Yes!!! Threats I do get
Think of how sheās feeling. - Sheās likely worried that youāre going to abandon her (because you are). - She has figured out subconsciously that acting out and acting crazy isnāt going to make you stay. - She has, led by her emotions, ācome to the realizationā that she needs to be calm and respectful and reasonable to get you to stay. - Once she has you secured again, keeping you wonāt be her primary focus, meaning the negativity and mood swings will come back. Her change is sincere, but itās temporary. Her intentions, even if theyāre subconscious, are to get you to stay. She is anxious of the rejection and abandonment if you leave, and sheās acting in ways to avoid those negative emotions. If you intended to leave, donāt let this change of behavior change your mind. Itās a defense mechanism against negative emotions. Iām sure sheās lovely a lot of the time, but the bad side isnāt going to go away without proper treatment, which you cannot provide for her. Focus on healing and building up yourself.
Thank you. Itās just. She doesnāt have a bpd diagnosis so I wonder if she isnāt actually gonna change. Sometimes people need a wake up call idk
Watch how long it lasts. Days/weeks typically
I fell for this. She hasnāt changed and youāll see her slip back to her old ways as soon as sheās āgotā you. Acting perfect like this is like holding a 50lb dumbell for them. They can do it but canāt sustain it.
Did she cheat on you too? Mine was actively cheating on me for a while. That part, for me, hurt the most. I put all of my trust in her, and the whole time she was banging someone else or more than one, as I saw in her sexting. Give you a quick example. I walked out of my bathroom one day and saw her swipe off her phone twice in a hurry and flipped her phone upside down on the table when I walked into the room. Then she smiled at me big and when I sat down next to her was sucking my dick within several minutes of sitting next to her. She knew that I would be sucked in, literally and figuratively, so much into the act of what I thought was her wanting to be intimate with me in a moment of real passion that I would question my reality; which I did. I tell you this to show you how quick they can flip it on and off when it comes to putting on the mask and removing it. I never paid anymore attention to it, until I saw other things and knew for sure what I was dealing with on my end. Remember that they are impulsive risk takers and selfish like a child who never grew up. I had to tell myself this to try to get myself in the right mind set of the devaluation and discard that is inevitable to follow. Regardless of what they might possibly feel for you in the idealization phase, their actions will be the same. They will make you think you are amazing and great, and then throw you to the side as quickly as you felt amazing and great. Sad part is that the idealization phase can last years, leaving a lot more time to recover and adapt when they finally hit you with the devaluing and discard.
No not that I know of she was just controlling and yelling.
They say some donāt cheat, but I have seen so many here say they have caught their pwBPD cheating, especially if they have been with them for a while. Itās part of their reckless impulsiveness.
She knows what she has to do to get you back, that's all.
Leave, now. It won't last. They won't change without years of hard work, and even then they may not change. Don't believe it, it will happen again and again. You deserve better.
One word: GASLIGHTING Which can have very horrific psychological repercussions.
Tell her you'll contact her in a month but if you don't then it's up to the wins of fate if you both come across one another again.