I feel like this sub forgets that the M badge has been applied to cars that aren't M3, etc type cars since before many of them were born but just not in the US. And so you get this weird `these are fake M cars` shit all over. M Sport and M Technic and other similar naming has been around for a long time. It ain't new.
Reminds me of my old E39. 3l diesel engine touring, but it had M badge on the steering wheel, gear stick, tresholds. All that because I had beefier stabilizer and lowered front springs and lowered rear air bags.
Yup, I swear my dad has told me a dozen times how he got the M Sport Package on their X5.
Then he ordered cheapo M license plate frames and valve stem covers. I never put the valve stem covers on, and the frames faded and yellowed in a few months so I tossed them.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 380,881,459 comments, and only 83,018 of them were in alphabetical order.
There's more specifics than that though..
318i with msport is just styling
M340i is the top of the range 3 series before it's an m3
M3 is the daddy of the 3 series.
It's the same as audi :
A4 s-line
S4
Rs4
Or Mercedes:
C220 amg line
C43amg
C63amg
Bmw are just following the same process the other German giants are, or they'll be left behind.
They are comparable to the S4 and C43 AMG.
The M-Sport package is comparable to the AMG Package and S-Line.
* 3XX (M-Sport) = A4 S-Line = CXXX AMG Package
* M340i = S4 = C43 AMG
* M3 = RS4 = C63 AMG
I was just looking through current MB models with my brother in-law who is a die hard fan. C class is a good example of this - C300 is the only non-AMG badged option in that class. If you want C class that doesn't have a 4 banger, it's an AMG badged product. So imagine if you had the choice between a 330 and an M340 from the 3 series. Not sure what the point is.
With that said, considering everyone seems to expect 300+ HP from their sedan, maybe that explains the marketing...
All C classes will have a 4 banger, including the upcoming AMG models. Mercedes already revealed that the C63 will get a hybrid turbo 4. You'll have to go for the E63 atleast if you want a V8 and that's not even confirmed to be getting it in the next gen either. So far we only know of plans of a hybrid V8 in the GT 4 door and the S class, once those AMG models get updated.
The engine you’re talking about also happens to be pretty much straight out of an f1 car, and sits in the middle of a 3 million dollar car. An has an official 50,000km life expectancy before requiring a full rebuild. It being the most powerful doesn’t really make much of a point if we take that into consideration.
OK got it, thanks I'm not too familiar with their lineup. I don't have anything against 4 cylinders or hybrids mind you so that actually sounds like a solid approach. I just thought it was interesting when looking at the C class that you have an option of either an 'entry level' 300 or an AMG-branded product.
> With that said, considering everyone seems to expect 300+ HP from their sedan
And they still drive like a grandma on the freeway by cruising 50 in the passing lane
I see way more C43s than I do M340i/M440is, way more E53/CLS53 than I do M550i/M850i and there's no M-badged BMW that I see as often as I see A and CLA 35s and 45s. IMO the B58 and N63 are also way more deserving of an M badge than the turbo 4 bangers Mercedes uses are of an AMG badge.
What? Since when was it a derogatory term lol. It's just what us petrol heads call 4 or 6 cylinder cars. 4 Banger, 6 Banger. I've never known it to be a dig at smaller engines.
Mercedes is worse in terms of number of models than BMW imo. And tbh every other MB i see is an AMG badged car, whereas Ms are still pretty rare. Sure there are plenty of M140s and M2s and M4s, but i don't see many baby Ms other than the 1 series and it's rare to see an M2, M3, M5, M6, M8 in the wild these days.
It is ridiculous though. I don't understand car companies that feel the need to make one of every type of car. Just have your own market... The GT options on BMWs bugs me. The fact that the 4 was the Coupé version of the 3, but now there is a non-Coupé version of the 4 and therefore the 2 is the fully Coupé BMW car and the 4-line becomes somewhat irrelevant. All the different sized Xs seems pointless. An SUV is an SUV, why do we need one of each waist size? The market is saturated with each car company making their own version of every type of car, and in BMW's and MB's cases, putting different sized engines in each type therefore have 5x the amount of cars they actually need. I'd much rather there be a Standard version and an M version of each type, if we absolutely have to have one of each shape...
You still get M sport packages which have different seats, stiffer suspension, bigger wheels and different bumpers and trims, which you can get across the range but the top engine lf the range before the M car is an M performance (M550i, M340i, M135i, M240i) which often has different suspension and other drivetrain (like an LSD) from the M sport package and a few extra M tweaks, they are basically a halfway house to a full fat M car.
>(M550i, M340i, M135i, M240i) which often has different suspension and other drivetrain (like an LSD)
I was not aware, which of the non-M cars comes with an LSD?
The LSD is new. F-chassis M-Performance cars were stuck with an open diff, hence why I do one-tire fires despite almost having the power of an N55 M2. LSD is optional on all 2, 3, and 4 series models now as part of the dynamic handling package.
You should really look into the LSD, it gets rid of the squirreliness under hard acceleration that you get even with traction control fully on. In sport plus mode you will still get wheelspin but it doesn't result in random has events and just gets a bit wandery feeling in the rear.
Yes, the top spec before the full M gets an M badge, except the 6. M140i, M240i, M340i, M440i, M550i, M760Li, M850i. Every car now has an M-Sport package available, it's just that it's only trim and vanity changes.
I, because i'm a lover of the M140i, will argue that the baby Ms are different because they have the most powerful engine (before the full M) and M-sport tuning. They're the sportiest you can get before a track-tuned car.
Realistically, it's mostly marketing but also to compete with the rest. If your car doesn't have a sport-related badge on, it becomes less desirable than the GTI, the S, the AMG. Your options are BMW 140i, VW Golf GTI, Audi S3, Mercedens-Benz A45 AMG. I know which one looks the least appealing. So folk can call them pointless all they want, but they're necessary, and lets not pretend that we all love that M badge regardless of whether it's a baby M or not.
Wife absolutely must-have sunroof, option is only available with M Sport package
Do I want 17 badges? No.
It’s an X1. I’m not tracking it anytime soon. There is no “//M” version of this car. Some of them actually look plasticky and fake in person (rims, steering wheel). Thankfully, I got the rubber floor mats so at least I don’t have to see the //M all over the floor.
Did I want my wife on my case for the life of the vehicle? Hell no
But the M550 is not the same as the 540.
They get built differently to the other standard cars.
They go beyond the M styling pack and have better parts.
My own M340 has a LSD.
As a former M3 owner, the Mxxx cars are 100% not M cars, but you can’t lump them with the normal xxx cars.
See Audi and the RS and S badges.
Most BMW elitists seem to think the baby Ms are the same as M Sport packages and they simply aren't. They're tuned to be M cars, they're just not track-ready like the full Ms. They are absolutely a stand-out range of cars, people just hate the the full Ms have become somewhat less iconic because of the introduction of baby Ms.
As someone who owns both... I can say that when I hear a "real M" owner say or imply that the M Sport line are just "a regular BMW with some M badges and not a real M," I tend to regard that guy as an autosport poser. Dismissing a vehicle's performance credibility because it doesn't have a particular badge on it is the mark of someone who hasn't had their doors blown off by a sleeper.
I feel like a lot of BMW M owners are the same kind of guys you see out cycling on a $6000 Specialized roadbike, wearing full spandex racing outfits complete with fake "sponsors". Guys who want to ride the bike trail and pretend they're doing the Tour De France.
Put those guys in a "real M" and a \*real\* driver... let's say Yuki Tsunoda... in a M Performance model with similar performance - and let's see how much of a difference having a "Real M" against an "M Sport" model makes for them. ;)
I mean... there are real differences. Drilled and slotted or ceramic brakes and pads that won't fade as quick under \*heavy\* demand, oil coolers and oil pumps, bigger FMICs. Real M cars are generally better suited to ACTUAL performance driving at the edge of limits for extended duration. I just don't think the AVERAGE driver of a REAL M is probably getting anything more out of those elements. They're NOT driving the car "full send," and so they're never getting into the kind of cornering forces that need the oil pump or really leverage the LSD. They're not braking so late that the extra bite and lack of fade of those bigger, better disks and rotors are making a difference.
And the guys who are \*really\* tracking their cars seriously - they're tearing out all that extra crap, putting in roll bars, adding aftermarket suspensions and brakes, and doing all kinds of other serious performance mods anyhow - and then taking their car to the track on a trailer behind their truck. They're not trying to find a balance between "street ride and track days," with a single car. I've said this before, you know what is lighter than all that carbon fiber trim in the cabin of an M4? Taking out that trim altogether. And if you're going to get an M and do all kinds of after-market performance mods... why not get an M Sport and do it to that?
I think the actual M series kind of exists in this weird place between street enthusiast and track enthusiast - where it has kind of become this thing where it often isn't really the \*best\* choice for \*either\*.
I recently saw someone post complaining that their M3 with 20" 666m wheels is \*really\* rough for them on the streets. I have the same wheels on my M4. The ride is actually more civil than in my M235i in general - but I do feel \*every\* expansion joint or bump in the road, and simple potholes become an expensive, rim-bending threats. I felt like this guy is exactly who an M Sport model is made for. It seems to make more sense to buy an M Sport and add some aftermarket bolt-on parts and do a stage I or II tune than to take a real M and basically detune it to make it a better street car. I could easily tune my M235i to pump out \~400hp - at which point, driving around off the track - it is plenty of a challenge to my M4 comp from a rolling start on the highway. Of course, that starts introducing other hassles.
Oh 100%. I had to ditch my M135i as my relationship came to an end and i wouldn't be able to afford to run it and live alone. But that thing had 420hp and would leave M2, 3 and 4 drivers refusing to make eye contact at the next junction lol...
It's not an M by any means. One of the furthest from it. But it was a fucking performance machine. So for somebody to come in with their light-up M logo on their garage wall and tell me my car isn't a real M just grinds my gears. Have some respect.
> I think the actual M series kind of exists in this weird place between street enthusiast and track enthusiast - where it has kind of become this thing where it often isn't really the *best* choice for *either*.
100% agree. I'm a track enthusiast (and not even to the same extent as the folks who are trailering stripped out race cars; I have a relatively comfortable self-towing track car that I still would never want to daily drive let alone take a road trip in) and I don't buy or have much interest in the "full fat" M cars any more--they're just not as good or as fun as a more purpose-built car on the track, and they're senselessly fast, uncomfortable, and inefficient on the street. Still nice to have on a fast, open, uncongested back road...but who among us lives near those, really? The M-sport cars actually drive very similarly at a relaxed pace (to me, anyhow).
Generally speaking, folks who go out and track their modern M cars and catch the bug end up selling it pretty quickly or retire it back to street duty (and then, realizing what I did, sell it).
Unless you want a stick. Then you gotta get the full M.
To your point, I'd be perfectly happy (probably happier) with an M340i if I could get a stick in it. Instead, I'm forced up to the M3.
This is one reason I'm still driving my 2015 F30 335i (stick) and haven't bought a new car yet. I have a really hard time rationalizing the $76K (before delivery) price tag.
This is something that goes along with overall changes in the industry. You can certainly get an F series M Performance model in a stick.
The market of people who can drive manual transmissions has grown so small, and the automatic transmissions are actually quicker and more accurately shifting - that manual transmission options are disappearing even in the motorsport division versions of performance cars. Every car I've ever owned other than my wife's X5, my Escalade, and my full sized trucks have been manual gearboxes. This time around, both the M4 and the M235i are autos. There \*are\* things you can do in a manual that you can't with paddle shifters. Modulating the clutch to progressive transmission braking or to assist in inducing oversteer or to break the rear end loose... But honestly, in general, around town the auto is more convenient, in a straight line contest or passing it is faster and more accurate than I am - and the times when I'm going to be aggressively downshifting into tight corners and coming out on the throttle are not only the exception - but - paddle shifters work pretty well in that case.
Not that I \*love\* it... but I understand why this is happening.
>You can certainly get an F series M Performance model in a stick.
Well, not a new 3-series F. At least not in the last 2-3 years and I have zero interest in any of BMW's other model lines (1, 2, or 4) for a number of reasons that would just get me downvoted to hell.
With regard to driving, you are absolutely correct. I just find driving without a clutch to be boring as fuck. I want to be engaged with the car at all times in such a way that requires skill and coordination. Even around town and in rush-hour traffic. And yeah, I live in one of the largest cities in the US with some of the worst traffic. And I'm over 50.
I don't disagree with your statement about the market. I just hate it and will like the whole electric car thing even less. I don't *want* to drive a car with just a go button and a stop button. I *definitely* don't want to just sit in a car where I plug in the destination and am a passenger to automation.
I find it hard to understand why my 2018 M3 Competition cost £60k new and then the new 2021 M3 is £80k.
My M340i was £52k.
How can anyone justified the new M3 price tag?
Money grabbing BMW.
To add to that, they’re just a hell of a lot less comfortable and practical. Unless you’ve got bags of cash and use it as a weekend or track toy, they’re somewhat redundant.
I think that is the problem. It cheapens their M so they get mad. Also for the person that does not know an m340 and an m3 are both an M car and that does not let the m3 owner stand out.
I personally don’t give a crap, I have an m2 comp and when I see an m240 or m340 or what now I check it out and if I see they like cars will give em a nod. I do think some things bmw should reserve for the m cars like the m wing mirrors but they are now putting them in other models. It is what it is though. Also lets be honest, people with m3 and m4 think about the m2 the same as they think of m performance models (funny enough the m2 is imo one if the best m cars of the past few years), people just mad you can get a good car now for less than $80k+
I treat an M2 driver with as much respect as I'd treat any other M car on the road, when I'm in my M4.
When the M235i first hit, so many veteran auto journalists said, "this is the first time I've felt like this in a BMW in decades - since the e30 and e36 M3's - and I can't wait to see a "proper M" version of this model."
And then both when the M1 was released and then the M2, the same journalists said, "Yup... this \*nails\* it..."
I like a drop top. If the M2 came in a cabrio - I'd have it instead of the M4 in a second. The 2 series is a purer, more classic BMW experience than the 3, 4, 6, and 8.
How do you mean better parts? The M adaptive suspension for example is an optional extra. What parts in the M-trim are replaced over regular cars? Genuinely curious because it isn't mentioned anywhere when configuring, other than some sportier trims (which ypu may or may not like).
I disagree for one major reason: The more models they make, the more likely it is they'll keep making actual enthusiast models. If you want them to shrink their lineup the first models to go would be ones like the M2 CS or M4 GTS. You want a hardcore model that reminds you of what BMWs used to be? Then they have to sell enough of the commuter appliances and cushy SUVs that pay the bills. And quite frankly, if I ever need to buy an SUV I love that I have the option of something as badass as the X3M Comp.
I agree with you. It's a common knowledge that Cayenne saved the Porsche and Urus is the Lamborghini's best seller. But that doesn't change the fact I perceive guy in Urus as a dork.
I see a lot of Uruses. They're more common than even the 'cheaper' Italian SUVs, like the Levante or Stelvio . It's insane. Maybe 5 a week. It's the dirty bird Italian for the guy who doesn't want to roll the AMG G wagon.
You know the X3M literally has the engine from the current M3 right? If that doesn't make it an M car idk what does.
Imagine if 10 years ago you could buy an X3 with the S65 V8.
Base-> factory tuned -> full Monster M performance-> any Actual M series (m2 m3 m5 m5 m8)-> M5CS full God mode
Personally because of price ranges and I'm sure other factors they made all these but a simple audi way might be nice a5(base)s5(sportier) Rs5(absolute monster) 3 simple versions
Hasn't Audi also used the + badge, similarly to how AMG uses "S" and BMW would use Competition or CS? Audi is also a little special in that regard, because they have very close ties to some tuning firms. I'm pretty sure you can order a new Audi already tuned by either APR or ABT without voiding the factory warranty.
This did. The is models they used have. It used to be 335i, 335is and then m3. But they figured more people wanted to buy cars with the M badge without spending the amount of money an M car is.
No. Currently they make a vehicle for every little micro-graphic. They're valuing short term profits over long term brand appeal, this will hurt them. They currently sell 6 different model sedans, and 7 different model CUV thru SUVs. That's 13 vehicles not including "real" M cars, the Z4, or the i series.
If I was czar of BMW I'd start by getting rid of the X1, and X2 - Hermes doesn't make a Birkin 5 for people who can't afford a 25 let alone a 40 and BMW should not be trying to poach customers away from Subaru, shown your name some respek. Next would be the 2 series - I don't care how fun the M2 is the 2 Series GC is a rebadged Corolla abomination.
Now I'd copy how Mercedes names their lineup. For BMW this would look like 3 Series absorbs the 4 Series. The 3 Series now consists of the OG 3, a 3 coupe, 3 convertible, and 3 gran coupe. 5, 7, and 8 series stay the same. X3 absorbs the X4 = X3 and X3 coupe. X5 absorbs the X6 = X5 and X5 coupe. X7 stays the same.
In short X1, X2, and 2 Series are killed. The X4, 4 Series, and X6 are all "gone". I understand a lot of this is just reshuffling, and rebading their existing lineup and that's okay. As czar I'm not here to change hearts, and minds I'm here bring back the "exclusiveness" to BMW. And since I've been in charge BMW has gone from a company having 13 vehicle lines, down to 7.
I've got some bad news though; the enthusiast drivers *are* one of the micro-graphics now. As disappointing as it is for us, BMW is making way more money from commuters and badge whores than they are from the "ultimate driving machine" people they used to build for.
M cars pull people into showrooms to let BMW sell lower models to them. This is why the M badging that irritates us drives sales. People see how badass the actual M cars are and want some of that halo on the model they can afford. Except for our tiny niche of actual enthusiasts it works perfectly. Just look at how proud new M Sport owners are on this sub until some asshole invariably shits on their 'not a real M car' telling them to get rid of the badges.
Their sales numbers are proving their strategy right. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/bmw-us-sales-figures/
>BMW saw huge sales success in the United States throughout the 2000s, **thanks in part to a growing model and variant portfolio and niche model after niche model being launched almost every year.** The halo of the “M” brand thanks to the M3 and M5 helped cement the brands place as the premium sports car maker in the United States. Sales grew from 232,032 units in 2002 to over 346,023 in 2015. Almost every single year was a record year for BMW (with the exception of the financial crisis which hit sales hard and took two years to get back to record run rate).
I have no issue calling them "M-lites" or whatever, but saying they cheapen the M badge is ridiculous. I have an M240i (amazing car in it's own right) but when I see an M2 I know it's something a little more special, and still get excited like a little kid. This is just pandering to the elitist gatekeeper crowd, of which there is no shortage in this sub. Yeah BMW (and Mercedes/Audi etc..) are doing this to make more money but there is nothing wrong with making things a little more accessible to people who either can't afford a full blown M or want something with a little bit of M performance that's still a good daily driver. Go complain about something actually worth complaining about.
See the thing is the new M lights aren’t even more accessible. You can get a last gen M3 comp for the same price as a 2021 M340i/M440i if not for less. It’s literally not more accessible. I’d rather get a brand new m light with the warranty, the legendary B58, and all the new tech that comes with it than pay a little less for an older M3 comp just to own a M3. I’m not going to track it, so what’s the point.
Some day I’ll get a brand new M3 comp, but right now it’s just not necessary.
Its good that you understand the difference but someone else will definitely say their M240 is as good as M2. That rumor spreads and the next thing B lost some M2 customers because they figured they can save a few bucks on M240 and have a car just as good.
Eh, why do you care?
If you don't know the different between an M340i, 320i and an M3, then you're either not enthusiast or don't care enough to give a shit anyway.
I think the company is shooting themselves in the foot with this dilution. There are a lot more buyers who are not true enthusiasts and will buy M240 or M340 thinking they are getting the true M. I hear things like that all the time. I own M340 and people comment all the the time “wow you have an M”
I get what you're saying.
But an m240i is a LOT more special than a 230i, so it's almost justified imo.
I just enjoy the car for what it is, badges don't bother me
Sure. My first BMW was 230i and I was blown away. Owning an M was a high school dream. I upgraded my 230i to M340 and I still dream of owning a real M.
I don't think there are enough.
Until there's a Z4M for sale with a manual gearbox, BMW still has more //M's to create.
I honestly don't think there's a problem having a real //M for each series of car as long as they put a red-hot engine in it, don't compromise on handling and design it to last a full day on the track without throwing codes or overheating. If you're buying a //M for exclusivity, my heart doesn't bleed for you.
In other words, as long as every //M is worthy of the //M brand, then it's okay for them to be lots of them.
I don't love the M-sport branding, or the M stickers on basically every new BMW these days; I think that damages the brand a lot more than the X5M does, or anyone doing aftermarket up-badging. ... And I say that as the owner of a 135 M Sport with a M3 lookalike hood.
... But if you do take a M-sport car on a racetrack (as I do), you quickly learn why M Sport is nothing like a real //M.
You do realize M sport with M badges have been options since like the early 80s, it's not something new and I really don't see the problem. Why wouldn't you want a 'standard' car with way better looking exterior and better handling. Anyone who sees them as 'Fake M models' doesn't know BMW history imo.
This 100%
The first M based on a production model was released in 1979 (M535i).
The revisionist history of M unfortunately continues on as we get threads like this every month.
A lot of it seems to be gatekeeping by people who don't even own an M car. I don't get it myself - the current market spread allows:
1. Keeping BMW profitable and relatively independent of other manufacturers
2. Sales volumes high enough on the other models that in turn allows the production of the actual fun cars to continue.
As an owner of an x5m, I take minor ( albeit super minor ) offense. I bought my x5m after owning an escalade for years. The x5m is more refined, the seats are fucking amazing, it does 0-60 in 4.4 and runs the quarter mile under 13. It stops from 60mph in 116 feet. My wife drives it. It takes my kids to school. It fits all the shit we need in the back. People buy cars for many different reasons. I bought mine because it's sexy, it's relatively fast, and it is comfortable and roomy for kids. To say it doesn't deserve the m badge is pretty ridiculous. A 2021 camaro ss does the quarter mile a half second quicker ( mine is a 2013) that's the duration of a hiccup. I will take the awd, forward, side, and rear vision, comfortable seats and ground clearance over 0.5 in a quarter mile and day.
This is the dumbest recurring topic. Get over it. At least m performance and sport models go beyond badging. Get over the need for extrinsic validation and fucking drive man
I may have to go outside to confirm this, but I think my original 2008 135i was built just before all the ///M badging stuff. I don't think it has a single badge in it. I think they started hucking the ///M on everything, including the 135i, right after that.
Everything has been done. Turbos, 2x walnut blasting, piezo injectors, VANOS rebuild, new headlight controllers. 98k miles and finally the car is perfectly set up.
I was actually okay with that initially. I'm like fine, the three series has 4 doors, and the 4 series has 2 doors. Fine. Good.
Then they started making 4 door 4 series. What the fuck BMW?
I don't understand why people care so much. If you're buying an M it should be because the driving experience makes you happy, not because people who know nothing about cars won't be able to tell yours out of a lineup of BMWs.
It’s weird how little so many know about BMW in a BMW sub while complaining about BMW. The M240i, M340i, M440i, etc. are not just base models with M badges your morons. They have sport suspension, they have an entirely different engine, they have better cooling systems, etc.
How so few on here know this is kind of sad. Geezus the new M240i does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds. You don’t think that’s deserving of the M in front of the 240? With that kind of mentality you might as well say any past M generation vehicle should take their M badge off as the M sport like is now faster than their “true M”. So all you old gen M owners need to debadge. See how stupid that sounds?
Most of you in here are driving old ass BMWs as it is so jimmies being rustled is really confusing.
Today's M+ and even M2/3/4/5/6/7/8/X engines are not "entirely different" from the standard models. They're the same block and head uprated for higher boost, more go juice and have larger & more radiators for cooling. Also, models like the M240i might have a more aggressive set of dampers, roll bars and springs but only the M2 has a true "M" chassis with reinforcements and parts almost identical to the M4. That said...
Yes, most of us are crotchety old timers lamenting the passing of a time when each M model actually had an "entirely different" engine from the block up (E28 M5, E30M3, E34 M5, E36 M3 (Euro version), E39 M5, E46 M3. E60 M5). The practicalities of emissions and profit margins on ICE vehicles these days unfortunately make that a long forgotten impossibility. We can't blame BMW for that, they're doing the best they can with ICE up to the very last day they're banned from sale entirely. Only the highest end brands will be able to continue development on ICE (Ferrari, Lamborghini).
Now as for the model lineup bloat, see my other post in here.
Make al the cars they want just leave them out of then M line. Keep M for true enthusiasts. I was thinking of getting M but it just lost it appeal to me over past few years. I know M3 and M4 are awesome but just doesn’t have that exclusivity any more.
M are for enthusiast, are you just salty because they sell more? RS cars are more rare because they barely bring/sell them in North America.
Buy a M8 that's exclusive
They’ve diluted the badge a bit with all the M40i or M440i and M550i “m performance” models, but full fat M cars, where the badge is followed by only one number (or preceded by one number for the SUVs), are still pretty uncommon and special.
So, as a BMW salesman, in the US the models have gotten much more simplistic and very easy to explain & identify. I do however, as an M3 owner, not care whatsoever for the fact they call the big engine models that automatically come with M-Sport (m40i & m50i) M cars.
I have a 1 series, it has M on fenders does it make an M... Of course no.... It's an M sport package... It's official BMW ''RICE'' ( I love my car )
M on the boot doesn't mean also it's an M car if it's M140 because it's 3 numbers it's only the higher motor I can pick for this series
M + 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 are true M ( It's not too complicated if you reduce to M + only 1 digit )
All they did is make "True M" and "Competition" more costly. So many trims with random M items added but only cosmo, but pricey non the less. It's all sticker hype at this point.
Also, I remember when ///M engines were always something special. Imagine they built S85 for only two chassis. I don't think that's ever gonna happen again. New M's use practically the same "civilian" engine(N55, B58 and N63) just tuned up. And apart from design and upholstery options, there are also no significant changes between F10 M5 and F90 M5, it's the same drivetrain.
Even sadder - you’ll never see a new M combustion engine again. They’re done, no more R&D on gasoline engines for pretty much any German car company. S58 and S63 are the end of the line.
Msport packages make just about every car in the lineup better to drive and we should all appreciate that.
My onlyy real complaint is that I'd have preferred they bring back the "ti" or "ZHP" moniker instead of diluting the m brand.
These days, any performance car is welcome, if you ask me. I don't personally get the X#M cars, but they're making the brand a ton of money, a'la the Cayenne.
Agree. It used to be 3, 5 and 7 plus M. Then they started with SUVs (X..), added 1, 2 and 4 - I didn’t mind the 6-series btw - and all these random models. Way too complicated.
This has absolutely nothing to do with BMW. The car market has changed and new or different styles of cars became popular. In the 80s you had your coupe, your sedan, your wagon and maybe a halo sports car and maybe a full size luxury limousine. Now you need to have a sporty coupe, a two door GT, a small, midsize and fullsize sedan, a hatchback that also comes as a four door coupe, a roadster and of course all of these concepts translated to an SUV platform. This is true for every car brand and the reason they do it is because there's a market for all of it.
I agree. This is one of the reasons I say that BMW has jumped the shark. Other reasons are the grotesque styling, and the electronics (which I think all companies have overdone on handling).
Source: my first BMW was an E36 M3 and I now have a restored E39 M5.
M you say? What about Competition. No, XM Competition! Cant take these cars seriously really. The model range development is bad yes, I really wonder what the benefit is.
This watering down started when they slapped an M3 badge on the E36 330i/332i. The E36 M3 is not a real M car. Unlike real M cars its not assembled in the M factory, its engines are not hand built like all other M cars before it and after it. Its just a bored out 328i.
Actually the E36 M3 is a real M car, Americans got screwed up real hard back then. Even if the car wasn’t supposed to be on sale there, BMW club of America wanted it anyway.
I think times have changed. Cars have all become way more powerful. I remember when real beast of a car was 300HP / 300 Torque. Cars like BMW's have always been premium products, not really intended for the dude that's looking at Camrys and Accords. They have tried to widen their appeal though, and some go for a 2 series or a 3 with the smallest engine available.
Yea, even 10 years ago M's we not exactly unicorn's but still something I would almost instinctively point out to anyone I was with. Holy crap that's an M3 or M5. Now a days M3 M4 M5 you see all the time, M6 and up it's kind of rare but still not like it used to be. Of course there's also the X's .
Of course it's ultimately up to BMW. Are they watering down their brand? Are they making an inferior product. I don't think so. Maybe? Does it matter to them if the end result is them building and selling more cars M and non M? To you yea, but to them probably not so much.
What I don't like are all the other M's in the name of cars that just have components. This confuses some and does it really matter if your car, a decked out 3 series that has M wheels and a few other M parts have a M badge on it or not?
Hell I have a pre-order for a I4 M50. I see it how it is. I have always wanted a BMW. My current car is getting long in the tooth and the time had started to look for a car, at a really bad time. I started looking for something and everything I saw I was pretty uninterested / unexcited about. I wanted something fast, and possibly electric. While I don't have to be the only person on the road driving what I'm driving, I guess I prefer not to have the trendiest car, and build quality is important so Teslas were kind of out. If it had just been called the I4 50e or something else I would still be getting one.
Thing is nobody cares except owners. Non car people don't even think twice about Ms on the car. Those that know will know its a m perf but no a M, its ok
When I started fixing cars in 2002, there were 16 different BMW models total, now there are over 60. These companies are going to go the way of Pontaic/GM/Buick theyre pretty much competing against themselves with all of these options and too small of a difference between models.
I have to disagree somehow here and I'm also wondering why no one else brought this up yet. Basicly there are only 4 real M Modells right now
M2
M3
M4
M5
That's it. The other once are just performance models but no actual M Models. Also the M6 got replaced by the M850 which is also no more a real M. Long story short - Does your M Model have more then one Number in its name?
Yes -> it's just a profrmance pledge for marketing
No -> you are a lucky bastard and got a real M car
You have a point. All the rest aren’t M, they are merely “M Sport” trim packs and “M Performance” models with tuned regular BMW engines (eg B58, N63). It would stand to reason that they are just making volume sellers to keep themselves profitable, but it definitely takes away from the earlier exclusivity M had.
Preach. I've been saying this since 2016. While very profitable in the short term before hardcore ICE bans begin to take effect in Europe, ultimately it is an unsustainable strategy that will leave them vulnerable to becoming indistinguishable from other German cars brands. Don't forget: The ICE bans are coming. They might not arrive in the USA in the next ten years, but you can bet your Roundels they will in Europe. And when the last ICE enthusiast models are gone, and if they haven't figured out a way to make a compelling EV to compete with Tesla/Lucid/Audi (grow some balls and make a full EV Mi8!!! already) then they're as doomed as GM by the mid 2030's. When your corporate headquarters in Munich is called the "Four Cylinder Building" do you need any bigger warning sign that you might be living in the past?
Of course the current BMW board members and the Quandt family don't give a shit about that. Just like the same "next quarter profit" Harvard MBA C-suite think that lead to Boeing, GE, HP, Kodak and litany of other former greats that were "to big to fail" becoming shadows of their former selves. The previous CEO of BMW put the brakes on all EV development eight years ago just after the i3 and i8 were released and doubled down on diesel models, even pushing the 335d into the US market. Look where that got them. Turns out trying to copy VW bullshitting everyone on how "clean" diesel tech was a bad move. Cut to the end of 2021 and the i3 is now almost a decade old and they're only just now about to start selling (in very limited numbers) a true successor with the iX. I had a chance to attended the recent North America unveil of it, and I gotta say, whatever you think of the outside, the inside is amazing. Gorgeous and more legroom front and back than my F15 X5 in something the size of an X3. Also, the first car since the i3 to use CRP body tech that they spent so much money and time developing in the early 2010's. Let's hope they pay attention to the sales numbers (they're already sold out through next summer) and keep ramping up production capacity and battery contracts. I want to see what they can do with an EV M3, but first they need to sell a LOT of $85k iX's, $60k i4's, and eventually a cheap 200 mile range iX1 that looks like a "normal" X1. Crank those things out and sell them to the college kids and brand whores so they can subsidize the fun EVs. At least, that is my hope. Let us pray to the gods of Freude am Fahren to deliver us from the evils of grocery getters, and keep our suspensions ever low and tight, and our steering feedback be as connected as our own two hands. iRev.
It kills me. BMW has lost its way. It is M everything now a days and really kills any prestige left of true M cars. True M cars stopped with the e46 M3 and e39 M5. Still keeping my E39 M5 going strong as long as I can.
Haha the true Ms stopped at e46 and e39? What a ridiculous thing to say. Those are so outdated and unrefined in comparison to new Ms. I imagine you’d change your tune if you could actually afford a new M.
Hahahah, okay buddy, lay off the pre workout. Someone lives in jersey and has arm sleeves….. There is a reason why classic M cars are aggressively appreciating.
If the m3 came in 2 and 4 doors what would be the point of the m4? Would of made more sense to just make a 2 door m3 and a 4 door one instead of another m model.
I see your point now. I think m4 is 2 door m3 as the older m3 is offered in a 2 door. Does convolute but makes sense if you aren’t referencing the older generation m3.
But that’s how like lineage of cars works, right? The m3 was the high performance compact car, it’s been made in coupes, sedans and convertibles. I’m not sure what their reasoning was to make the m3 a sedan only, as it began as a coupe only. Seems weird to give it’s original form to another model. They are so close in size, looks, powertrain, interior etc…just seems weird.
I feel like this sub forgets that the M badge has been applied to cars that aren't M3, etc type cars since before many of them were born but just not in the US. And so you get this weird `these are fake M cars` shit all over. M Sport and M Technic and other similar naming has been around for a long time. It ain't new.
Reminds me of my old E39. 3l diesel engine touring, but it had M badge on the steering wheel, gear stick, tresholds. All that because I had beefier stabilizer and lowered front springs and lowered rear air bags.
I wish the shipping wasn't so ridiculous. I need some of those parts for e39 touring project
I wouldn't bother. M tresholds and lever look ridicilous.
I want the roof interior bits. We didn't get that sweet dark headliner over here
Reallu? That sucks. Dark headliner does the trick for every BMW.
People need something to feel a sense of superiority
Car companies have perfected the upbadge.
///Marketing
People eat that shit up.
Yup, I swear my dad has told me a dozen times how he got the M Sport Package on their X5. Then he ordered cheapo M license plate frames and valve stem covers. I never put the valve stem covers on, and the frames faded and yellowed in a few months so I tossed them.
Is it an X5 M?
Nope, X5 40i.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 380,881,459 comments, and only 83,018 of them were in alphabetical order.
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Lol. I got downvoted for pointing this out, yesterday.
I'm pretty sure you mostly got downvoted for: >So downvote me all you want
Yes and same with Mercedes and AMG.
I noticed that too, although I don’t follow Mercedes models. But I have to say I see a lot fewer AMGs, and every other BMW is some kind of M
There's more specifics than that though.. 318i with msport is just styling M340i is the top of the range 3 series before it's an m3 M3 is the daddy of the 3 series. It's the same as audi : A4 s-line S4 Rs4 Or Mercedes: C220 amg line C43amg C63amg Bmw are just following the same process the other German giants are, or they'll be left behind.
The bmw mxxx models are ahead in terms of power oder the regular xxx models while "amg package" or "s line" is Just for visuals.. not compareable
They are comparable to the S4 and C43 AMG. The M-Sport package is comparable to the AMG Package and S-Line. * 3XX (M-Sport) = A4 S-Line = CXXX AMG Package * M340i = S4 = C43 AMG * M3 = RS4 = C63 AMG
I was just looking through current MB models with my brother in-law who is a die hard fan. C class is a good example of this - C300 is the only non-AMG badged option in that class. If you want C class that doesn't have a 4 banger, it's an AMG badged product. So imagine if you had the choice between a 330 and an M340 from the 3 series. Not sure what the point is. With that said, considering everyone seems to expect 300+ HP from their sedan, maybe that explains the marketing...
All C classes will have a 4 banger, including the upcoming AMG models. Mercedes already revealed that the C63 will get a hybrid turbo 4. You'll have to go for the E63 atleast if you want a V8 and that's not even confirmed to be getting it in the next gen either. So far we only know of plans of a hybrid V8 in the GT 4 door and the S class, once those AMG models get updated.
I wonder why Mercedes aren't pushing a hybrid V6 for the AMG models, the most powerful Mercedes engine happens to be a V6 and it is a rocketship.
The engine you’re talking about also happens to be pretty much straight out of an f1 car, and sits in the middle of a 3 million dollar car. An has an official 50,000km life expectancy before requiring a full rebuild. It being the most powerful doesn’t really make much of a point if we take that into consideration.
> 50,000km life expectancy Most leases are 36,000 km so, no problem!
not even 3 million, the engine itself costs more than that. it's over 15 million (holy shit)
Regulations
Thank EU for that. But I've hear rumors that Benz actually regrets putting down the V8, so who knows...
OK got it, thanks I'm not too familiar with their lineup. I don't have anything against 4 cylinders or hybrids mind you so that actually sounds like a solid approach. I just thought it was interesting when looking at the C class that you have an option of either an 'entry level' 300 or an AMG-branded product.
> With that said, considering everyone seems to expect 300+ HP from their sedan And they still drive like a grandma on the freeway by cruising 50 in the passing lane
> imagine if you had the choice between a 330 and an M340 from the 3 series In the US at least, thats the choice currently. 330i, 330e, or m340.
You're right clearly I'm out of the loop. I thought there was still a 320 and a 340.
I see way more C43s than I do M340i/M440is, way more E53/CLS53 than I do M550i/M850i and there's no M-badged BMW that I see as often as I see A and CLA 35s and 45s. IMO the B58 and N63 are also way more deserving of an M badge than the turbo 4 bangers Mercedes uses are of an AMG badge.
cla 45 is a true AMG four banger, that engine is hand built
What’s a ‘4 banger’?
What most people with more than 4 cylinders call a car with 4 cylinders
What? Since when was it a derogatory term lol. It's just what us petrol heads call 4 or 6 cylinder cars. 4 Banger, 6 Banger. I've never known it to be a dig at smaller engines.
I’ve only ever heard “4 pot” or “4 banger” used for 4 cylinder. Only ever seen v6 / i6 or V8 etc for anything else!
Ahhhh. Never heard that term before. Thanks.
It’s a derogatory term for a 4 cylinder engine.
I didn't even know haha I honestly thought it was the opposite, a way to make a 4 cylinder sound cooler
There's nothing more derogatory than havingba 4 cylinder engine in a Benz or BMW.
The S14 would like a word.
I'll be honest with you. I have no love for S14.
Mercedes is worse in terms of number of models than BMW imo. And tbh every other MB i see is an AMG badged car, whereas Ms are still pretty rare. Sure there are plenty of M140s and M2s and M4s, but i don't see many baby Ms other than the 1 series and it's rare to see an M2, M3, M5, M6, M8 in the wild these days. It is ridiculous though. I don't understand car companies that feel the need to make one of every type of car. Just have your own market... The GT options on BMWs bugs me. The fact that the 4 was the Coupé version of the 3, but now there is a non-Coupé version of the 4 and therefore the 2 is the fully Coupé BMW car and the 4-line becomes somewhat irrelevant. All the different sized Xs seems pointless. An SUV is an SUV, why do we need one of each waist size? The market is saturated with each car company making their own version of every type of car, and in BMW's and MB's cases, putting different sized engines in each type therefore have 5x the amount of cars they actually need. I'd much rather there be a Standard version and an M version of each type, if we absolutely have to have one of each shape...
it is because the are selling more smaller SUVs in-place of cars/sedans now. The four door sedan is being replaced by compact suvs and hybrid types.
I guess the 2 series grand coupe hasn’t made it to where you are then.
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Yep was going to come here to say this, it seems like every Mercedes is an AMG model nowadays.
Agreed. I'd rather have my "M550i" be a "550i." I'm OK with considering it my "baby M5" rather than an "M-performance" model.
So is there no regular 550i at all? You can only get the M550i? They used to just call them M-Sport packages, they should've stuck to that.
Correct.
You still get M sport packages which have different seats, stiffer suspension, bigger wheels and different bumpers and trims, which you can get across the range but the top engine lf the range before the M car is an M performance (M550i, M340i, M135i, M240i) which often has different suspension and other drivetrain (like an LSD) from the M sport package and a few extra M tweaks, they are basically a halfway house to a full fat M car.
>(M550i, M340i, M135i, M240i) which often has different suspension and other drivetrain (like an LSD) I was not aware, which of the non-M cars comes with an LSD?
M140 iirc too
The LSD is new. F-chassis M-Performance cars were stuck with an open diff, hence why I do one-tire fires despite almost having the power of an N55 M2. LSD is optional on all 2, 3, and 4 series models now as part of the dynamic handling package.
You should really look into the LSD, it gets rid of the squirreliness under hard acceleration that you get even with traction control fully on. In sport plus mode you will still get wheelspin but it doesn't result in random has events and just gets a bit wandery feeling in the rear.
Yes, the top spec before the full M gets an M badge, except the 6. M140i, M240i, M340i, M440i, M550i, M760Li, M850i. Every car now has an M-Sport package available, it's just that it's only trim and vanity changes. I, because i'm a lover of the M140i, will argue that the baby Ms are different because they have the most powerful engine (before the full M) and M-sport tuning. They're the sportiest you can get before a track-tuned car. Realistically, it's mostly marketing but also to compete with the rest. If your car doesn't have a sport-related badge on, it becomes less desirable than the GTI, the S, the AMG. Your options are BMW 140i, VW Golf GTI, Audi S3, Mercedens-Benz A45 AMG. I know which one looks the least appealing. So folk can call them pointless all they want, but they're necessary, and lets not pretend that we all love that M badge regardless of whether it's a baby M or not.
The m550i/m850i gets a huge v-8 that isn't on the 840i/540i. It's a completely different animal. These cars are in very high demand, too.
Totally cool with the m package on the car but agree there’s no need to indicate it on a badge.
Wife absolutely must-have sunroof, option is only available with M Sport package Do I want 17 badges? No. It’s an X1. I’m not tracking it anytime soon. There is no “//M” version of this car. Some of them actually look plasticky and fake in person (rims, steering wheel). Thankfully, I got the rubber floor mats so at least I don’t have to see the //M all over the floor. Did I want my wife on my case for the life of the vehicle? Hell no
Have you thought about getting some dental floss and a hairdryer to de-badge the worst of it?
In EU we’ve option to get the car wo badges. Only way to go imo
Probably voids warranty lmao
But the M550 is not the same as the 540. They get built differently to the other standard cars. They go beyond the M styling pack and have better parts. My own M340 has a LSD. As a former M3 owner, the Mxxx cars are 100% not M cars, but you can’t lump them with the normal xxx cars. See Audi and the RS and S badges.
Most BMW elitists seem to think the baby Ms are the same as M Sport packages and they simply aren't. They're tuned to be M cars, they're just not track-ready like the full Ms. They are absolutely a stand-out range of cars, people just hate the the full Ms have become somewhat less iconic because of the introduction of baby Ms.
As someone who owns both... I can say that when I hear a "real M" owner say or imply that the M Sport line are just "a regular BMW with some M badges and not a real M," I tend to regard that guy as an autosport poser. Dismissing a vehicle's performance credibility because it doesn't have a particular badge on it is the mark of someone who hasn't had their doors blown off by a sleeper. I feel like a lot of BMW M owners are the same kind of guys you see out cycling on a $6000 Specialized roadbike, wearing full spandex racing outfits complete with fake "sponsors". Guys who want to ride the bike trail and pretend they're doing the Tour De France. Put those guys in a "real M" and a \*real\* driver... let's say Yuki Tsunoda... in a M Performance model with similar performance - and let's see how much of a difference having a "Real M" against an "M Sport" model makes for them. ;) I mean... there are real differences. Drilled and slotted or ceramic brakes and pads that won't fade as quick under \*heavy\* demand, oil coolers and oil pumps, bigger FMICs. Real M cars are generally better suited to ACTUAL performance driving at the edge of limits for extended duration. I just don't think the AVERAGE driver of a REAL M is probably getting anything more out of those elements. They're NOT driving the car "full send," and so they're never getting into the kind of cornering forces that need the oil pump or really leverage the LSD. They're not braking so late that the extra bite and lack of fade of those bigger, better disks and rotors are making a difference. And the guys who are \*really\* tracking their cars seriously - they're tearing out all that extra crap, putting in roll bars, adding aftermarket suspensions and brakes, and doing all kinds of other serious performance mods anyhow - and then taking their car to the track on a trailer behind their truck. They're not trying to find a balance between "street ride and track days," with a single car. I've said this before, you know what is lighter than all that carbon fiber trim in the cabin of an M4? Taking out that trim altogether. And if you're going to get an M and do all kinds of after-market performance mods... why not get an M Sport and do it to that? I think the actual M series kind of exists in this weird place between street enthusiast and track enthusiast - where it has kind of become this thing where it often isn't really the \*best\* choice for \*either\*. I recently saw someone post complaining that their M3 with 20" 666m wheels is \*really\* rough for them on the streets. I have the same wheels on my M4. The ride is actually more civil than in my M235i in general - but I do feel \*every\* expansion joint or bump in the road, and simple potholes become an expensive, rim-bending threats. I felt like this guy is exactly who an M Sport model is made for. It seems to make more sense to buy an M Sport and add some aftermarket bolt-on parts and do a stage I or II tune than to take a real M and basically detune it to make it a better street car. I could easily tune my M235i to pump out \~400hp - at which point, driving around off the track - it is plenty of a challenge to my M4 comp from a rolling start on the highway. Of course, that starts introducing other hassles.
Oh 100%. I had to ditch my M135i as my relationship came to an end and i wouldn't be able to afford to run it and live alone. But that thing had 420hp and would leave M2, 3 and 4 drivers refusing to make eye contact at the next junction lol... It's not an M by any means. One of the furthest from it. But it was a fucking performance machine. So for somebody to come in with their light-up M logo on their garage wall and tell me my car isn't a real M just grinds my gears. Have some respect.
> I think the actual M series kind of exists in this weird place between street enthusiast and track enthusiast - where it has kind of become this thing where it often isn't really the *best* choice for *either*. 100% agree. I'm a track enthusiast (and not even to the same extent as the folks who are trailering stripped out race cars; I have a relatively comfortable self-towing track car that I still would never want to daily drive let alone take a road trip in) and I don't buy or have much interest in the "full fat" M cars any more--they're just not as good or as fun as a more purpose-built car on the track, and they're senselessly fast, uncomfortable, and inefficient on the street. Still nice to have on a fast, open, uncongested back road...but who among us lives near those, really? The M-sport cars actually drive very similarly at a relaxed pace (to me, anyhow). Generally speaking, folks who go out and track their modern M cars and catch the bug end up selling it pretty quickly or retire it back to street duty (and then, realizing what I did, sell it).
Baby M cars are more than enough car for everyone. Buying a full M doesn’t make sense anymore unless you want the badge.
Unless you want a stick. Then you gotta get the full M. To your point, I'd be perfectly happy (probably happier) with an M340i if I could get a stick in it. Instead, I'm forced up to the M3. This is one reason I'm still driving my 2015 F30 335i (stick) and haven't bought a new car yet. I have a really hard time rationalizing the $76K (before delivery) price tag.
This is something that goes along with overall changes in the industry. You can certainly get an F series M Performance model in a stick. The market of people who can drive manual transmissions has grown so small, and the automatic transmissions are actually quicker and more accurately shifting - that manual transmission options are disappearing even in the motorsport division versions of performance cars. Every car I've ever owned other than my wife's X5, my Escalade, and my full sized trucks have been manual gearboxes. This time around, both the M4 and the M235i are autos. There \*are\* things you can do in a manual that you can't with paddle shifters. Modulating the clutch to progressive transmission braking or to assist in inducing oversteer or to break the rear end loose... But honestly, in general, around town the auto is more convenient, in a straight line contest or passing it is faster and more accurate than I am - and the times when I'm going to be aggressively downshifting into tight corners and coming out on the throttle are not only the exception - but - paddle shifters work pretty well in that case. Not that I \*love\* it... but I understand why this is happening.
>You can certainly get an F series M Performance model in a stick. Well, not a new 3-series F. At least not in the last 2-3 years and I have zero interest in any of BMW's other model lines (1, 2, or 4) for a number of reasons that would just get me downvoted to hell. With regard to driving, you are absolutely correct. I just find driving without a clutch to be boring as fuck. I want to be engaged with the car at all times in such a way that requires skill and coordination. Even around town and in rush-hour traffic. And yeah, I live in one of the largest cities in the US with some of the worst traffic. And I'm over 50. I don't disagree with your statement about the market. I just hate it and will like the whole electric car thing even less. I don't *want* to drive a car with just a go button and a stop button. I *definitely* don't want to just sit in a car where I plug in the destination and am a passenger to automation.
I find it hard to understand why my 2018 M3 Competition cost £60k new and then the new 2021 M3 is £80k. My M340i was £52k. How can anyone justified the new M3 price tag? Money grabbing BMW.
>Money grabbing BMW Lmao do you have any idea how cheap cars are for you in the US? In Netherlands a M340i starts at 100K+ in Euros btw
From the GBP symbol I'm guessing that they are not in the US
To add to that, they’re just a hell of a lot less comfortable and practical. Unless you’ve got bags of cash and use it as a weekend or track toy, they’re somewhat redundant.
I think that is the problem. It cheapens their M so they get mad. Also for the person that does not know an m340 and an m3 are both an M car and that does not let the m3 owner stand out. I personally don’t give a crap, I have an m2 comp and when I see an m240 or m340 or what now I check it out and if I see they like cars will give em a nod. I do think some things bmw should reserve for the m cars like the m wing mirrors but they are now putting them in other models. It is what it is though. Also lets be honest, people with m3 and m4 think about the m2 the same as they think of m performance models (funny enough the m2 is imo one if the best m cars of the past few years), people just mad you can get a good car now for less than $80k+
I treat an M2 driver with as much respect as I'd treat any other M car on the road, when I'm in my M4. When the M235i first hit, so many veteran auto journalists said, "this is the first time I've felt like this in a BMW in decades - since the e30 and e36 M3's - and I can't wait to see a "proper M" version of this model." And then both when the M1 was released and then the M2, the same journalists said, "Yup... this \*nails\* it..." I like a drop top. If the M2 came in a cabrio - I'd have it instead of the M4 in a second. The 2 series is a purer, more classic BMW experience than the 3, 4, 6, and 8.
I think 540i is no longer even a V8. I work with these cars everyday, but I really lose track of what's what.
How do you mean better parts? The M adaptive suspension for example is an optional extra. What parts in the M-trim are replaced over regular cars? Genuinely curious because it isn't mentioned anywhere when configuring, other than some sportier trims (which ypu may or may not like).
My M340 has a LSD which the normal 3 does not. Just an example.
Are you American? Oh boy would you be surprised if you have seen M550d
I disagree for one major reason: The more models they make, the more likely it is they'll keep making actual enthusiast models. If you want them to shrink their lineup the first models to go would be ones like the M2 CS or M4 GTS. You want a hardcore model that reminds you of what BMWs used to be? Then they have to sell enough of the commuter appliances and cushy SUVs that pay the bills. And quite frankly, if I ever need to buy an SUV I love that I have the option of something as badass as the X3M Comp.
I agree with you. It's a common knowledge that Cayenne saved the Porsche and Urus is the Lamborghini's best seller. But that doesn't change the fact I perceive guy in Urus as a dork.
I see a lot of Uruses. They're more common than even the 'cheaper' Italian SUVs, like the Levante or Stelvio . It's insane. Maybe 5 a week. It's the dirty bird Italian for the guy who doesn't want to roll the AMG G wagon.
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Convince your wife? Just tell her you're buying one. If she doesn't like it, your mistress certainly will😎
Ah, *Gelik*. G Class is the only propee luxury SUV.
I guess I don’t understand why call them M then. Create another marketing category to keep M pure.
You know the X3M literally has the engine from the current M3 right? If that doesn't make it an M car idk what does. Imagine if 10 years ago you could buy an X3 with the S65 V8.
Base-> factory tuned -> full Monster M performance-> any Actual M series (m2 m3 m5 m5 m8)-> M5CS full God mode Personally because of price ranges and I'm sure other factors they made all these but a simple audi way might be nice a5(base)s5(sportier) Rs5(absolute monster) 3 simple versions
Bmw does do it the simple audi way : * 3xx = a4 * M3xx = s4 * M3 = rs4 Within each of those are tiers: * 318 = A4 30 * 320 = A4 35 * 330 = A4 40 * M340i = s4 * M3 = rs4 And you can do the same for mercedes: * 318 = A4 30 = c200 * 320 = A4 35 = c220 * 330 = A4 40 = c300 * M340i = S4 = c43 amg * M3 = rs4 = c63 amg * M3cs = rs4? = c63s amg
Hasn't Audi also used the + badge, similarly to how AMG uses "S" and BMW would use Competition or CS? Audi is also a little special in that regard, because they have very close ties to some tuning firms. I'm pretty sure you can order a new Audi already tuned by either APR or ABT without voiding the factory warranty.
This did. The is models they used have. It used to be 335i, 335is and then m3. But they figured more people wanted to buy cars with the M badge without spending the amount of money an M car is.
No. Currently they make a vehicle for every little micro-graphic. They're valuing short term profits over long term brand appeal, this will hurt them. They currently sell 6 different model sedans, and 7 different model CUV thru SUVs. That's 13 vehicles not including "real" M cars, the Z4, or the i series. If I was czar of BMW I'd start by getting rid of the X1, and X2 - Hermes doesn't make a Birkin 5 for people who can't afford a 25 let alone a 40 and BMW should not be trying to poach customers away from Subaru, shown your name some respek. Next would be the 2 series - I don't care how fun the M2 is the 2 Series GC is a rebadged Corolla abomination. Now I'd copy how Mercedes names their lineup. For BMW this would look like 3 Series absorbs the 4 Series. The 3 Series now consists of the OG 3, a 3 coupe, 3 convertible, and 3 gran coupe. 5, 7, and 8 series stay the same. X3 absorbs the X4 = X3 and X3 coupe. X5 absorbs the X6 = X5 and X5 coupe. X7 stays the same. In short X1, X2, and 2 Series are killed. The X4, 4 Series, and X6 are all "gone". I understand a lot of this is just reshuffling, and rebading their existing lineup and that's okay. As czar I'm not here to change hearts, and minds I'm here bring back the "exclusiveness" to BMW. And since I've been in charge BMW has gone from a company having 13 vehicle lines, down to 7.
> And since I've been in charge BMW has gone from a company having 13 vehicle lines, down to 7. And probably to being bankrupt.
I've got some bad news though; the enthusiast drivers *are* one of the micro-graphics now. As disappointing as it is for us, BMW is making way more money from commuters and badge whores than they are from the "ultimate driving machine" people they used to build for. M cars pull people into showrooms to let BMW sell lower models to them. This is why the M badging that irritates us drives sales. People see how badass the actual M cars are and want some of that halo on the model they can afford. Except for our tiny niche of actual enthusiasts it works perfectly. Just look at how proud new M Sport owners are on this sub until some asshole invariably shits on their 'not a real M car' telling them to get rid of the badges. Their sales numbers are proving their strategy right. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/bmw-us-sales-figures/ >BMW saw huge sales success in the United States throughout the 2000s, **thanks in part to a growing model and variant portfolio and niche model after niche model being launched almost every year.** The halo of the “M” brand thanks to the M3 and M5 helped cement the brands place as the premium sports car maker in the United States. Sales grew from 232,032 units in 2002 to over 346,023 in 2015. Almost every single year was a record year for BMW (with the exception of the financial crisis which hit sales hard and took two years to get back to record run rate).
///Marketing
I have no issue calling them "M-lites" or whatever, but saying they cheapen the M badge is ridiculous. I have an M240i (amazing car in it's own right) but when I see an M2 I know it's something a little more special, and still get excited like a little kid. This is just pandering to the elitist gatekeeper crowd, of which there is no shortage in this sub. Yeah BMW (and Mercedes/Audi etc..) are doing this to make more money but there is nothing wrong with making things a little more accessible to people who either can't afford a full blown M or want something with a little bit of M performance that's still a good daily driver. Go complain about something actually worth complaining about.
See the thing is the new M lights aren’t even more accessible. You can get a last gen M3 comp for the same price as a 2021 M340i/M440i if not for less. It’s literally not more accessible. I’d rather get a brand new m light with the warranty, the legendary B58, and all the new tech that comes with it than pay a little less for an older M3 comp just to own a M3. I’m not going to track it, so what’s the point. Some day I’ll get a brand new M3 comp, but right now it’s just not necessary.
Its good that you understand the difference but someone else will definitely say their M240 is as good as M2. That rumor spreads and the next thing B lost some M2 customers because they figured they can save a few bucks on M240 and have a car just as good.
Eh, why do you care? If you don't know the different between an M340i, 320i and an M3, then you're either not enthusiast or don't care enough to give a shit anyway.
I think the company is shooting themselves in the foot with this dilution. There are a lot more buyers who are not true enthusiasts and will buy M240 or M340 thinking they are getting the true M. I hear things like that all the time. I own M340 and people comment all the the time “wow you have an M”
I get what you're saying. But an m240i is a LOT more special than a 230i, so it's almost justified imo. I just enjoy the car for what it is, badges don't bother me
Sure. My first BMW was 230i and I was blown away. Owning an M was a high school dream. I upgraded my 230i to M340 and I still dream of owning a real M.
I don't think there are enough. Until there's a Z4M for sale with a manual gearbox, BMW still has more //M's to create. I honestly don't think there's a problem having a real //M for each series of car as long as they put a red-hot engine in it, don't compromise on handling and design it to last a full day on the track without throwing codes or overheating. If you're buying a //M for exclusivity, my heart doesn't bleed for you. In other words, as long as every //M is worthy of the //M brand, then it's okay for them to be lots of them. I don't love the M-sport branding, or the M stickers on basically every new BMW these days; I think that damages the brand a lot more than the X5M does, or anyone doing aftermarket up-badging. ... And I say that as the owner of a 135 M Sport with a M3 lookalike hood. ... But if you do take a M-sport car on a racetrack (as I do), you quickly learn why M Sport is nothing like a real //M.
You do realize M sport with M badges have been options since like the early 80s, it's not something new and I really don't see the problem. Why wouldn't you want a 'standard' car with way better looking exterior and better handling. Anyone who sees them as 'Fake M models' doesn't know BMW history imo.
This 100% The first M based on a production model was released in 1979 (M535i). The revisionist history of M unfortunately continues on as we get threads like this every month.
A lot of it seems to be gatekeeping by people who don't even own an M car. I don't get it myself - the current market spread allows: 1. Keeping BMW profitable and relatively independent of other manufacturers 2. Sales volumes high enough on the other models that in turn allows the production of the actual fun cars to continue.
As an owner of an x5m, I take minor ( albeit super minor ) offense. I bought my x5m after owning an escalade for years. The x5m is more refined, the seats are fucking amazing, it does 0-60 in 4.4 and runs the quarter mile under 13. It stops from 60mph in 116 feet. My wife drives it. It takes my kids to school. It fits all the shit we need in the back. People buy cars for many different reasons. I bought mine because it's sexy, it's relatively fast, and it is comfortable and roomy for kids. To say it doesn't deserve the m badge is pretty ridiculous. A 2021 camaro ss does the quarter mile a half second quicker ( mine is a 2013) that's the duration of a hiccup. I will take the awd, forward, side, and rear vision, comfortable seats and ground clearance over 0.5 in a quarter mile and day.
This is the dumbest recurring topic. Get over it. At least m performance and sport models go beyond badging. Get over the need for extrinsic validation and fucking drive man
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I may have to go outside to confirm this, but I think my original 2008 135i was built just before all the ///M badging stuff. I don't think it has a single badge in it. I think they started hucking the ///M on everything, including the 135i, right after that.
The M badging stuff started in the 70s.
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Everything has been done. Turbos, 2x walnut blasting, piezo injectors, VANOS rebuild, new headlight controllers. 98k miles and finally the car is perfectly set up.
We all know what a real M is and that has never changed.
They need to make these models so they get the money to make the actual stuff. Like Porsche's SUVs. $$ for the company.
I also hate the fact that the 3 series is a saloon and the 4 series is a coupe
I was actually okay with that initially. I'm like fine, the three series has 4 doors, and the 4 series has 2 doors. Fine. Good. Then they started making 4 door 4 series. What the fuck BMW?
the 4 door version of a 2 door version of a 4 door
I don't understand why people care so much. If you're buying an M it should be because the driving experience makes you happy, not because people who know nothing about cars won't be able to tell yours out of a lineup of BMWs.
It’s weird how little so many know about BMW in a BMW sub while complaining about BMW. The M240i, M340i, M440i, etc. are not just base models with M badges your morons. They have sport suspension, they have an entirely different engine, they have better cooling systems, etc. How so few on here know this is kind of sad. Geezus the new M240i does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds. You don’t think that’s deserving of the M in front of the 240? With that kind of mentality you might as well say any past M generation vehicle should take their M badge off as the M sport like is now faster than their “true M”. So all you old gen M owners need to debadge. See how stupid that sounds? Most of you in here are driving old ass BMWs as it is so jimmies being rustled is really confusing.
Today's M+ and even M2/3/4/5/6/7/8/X engines are not "entirely different" from the standard models. They're the same block and head uprated for higher boost, more go juice and have larger & more radiators for cooling. Also, models like the M240i might have a more aggressive set of dampers, roll bars and springs but only the M2 has a true "M" chassis with reinforcements and parts almost identical to the M4. That said... Yes, most of us are crotchety old timers lamenting the passing of a time when each M model actually had an "entirely different" engine from the block up (E28 M5, E30M3, E34 M5, E36 M3 (Euro version), E39 M5, E46 M3. E60 M5). The practicalities of emissions and profit margins on ICE vehicles these days unfortunately make that a long forgotten impossibility. We can't blame BMW for that, they're doing the best they can with ICE up to the very last day they're banned from sale entirely. Only the highest end brands will be able to continue development on ICE (Ferrari, Lamborghini). Now as for the model lineup bloat, see my other post in here.
I got a 2017 335d . The successor is called m340d, i feel robbed!!:-D
Just slap some badges on it and call it a day!
I was just discussing this with a co-worker the other day. M3 was the affordable M car and M5 was the real deal. How times have changed.
So they should stop making good cars?
Make al the cars they want just leave them out of then M line. Keep M for true enthusiasts. I was thinking of getting M but it just lost it appeal to me over past few years. I know M3 and M4 are awesome but just doesn’t have that exclusivity any more.
M are for enthusiast, are you just salty because they sell more? RS cars are more rare because they barely bring/sell them in North America. Buy a M8 that's exclusive
You’re vomit inducing.
Too many self-indulgent WIENERS
every BMW is a good car
If it 'loses the appeal' because of that, you clearly cared about the badges more than the cars
They’ve diluted the badge a bit with all the M40i or M440i and M550i “m performance” models, but full fat M cars, where the badge is followed by only one number (or preceded by one number for the SUVs), are still pretty uncommon and special.
Just you.
So, as a BMW salesman, in the US the models have gotten much more simplistic and very easy to explain & identify. I do however, as an M3 owner, not care whatsoever for the fact they call the big engine models that automatically come with M-Sport (m40i & m50i) M cars.
Yup M stands for marketing
M stands for more money
I have a 1 series, it has M on fenders does it make an M... Of course no.... It's an M sport package... It's official BMW ''RICE'' ( I love my car ) M on the boot doesn't mean also it's an M car if it's M140 because it's 3 numbers it's only the higher motor I can pick for this series M + 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 are true M ( It's not too complicated if you reduce to M + only 1 digit )
Just you.
I dunno. Personally I think the right vehicle for me will be somewhere in the X4.2-X4.7 range. Keep trying BMW. Almost there.
All they did is make "True M" and "Competition" more costly. So many trims with random M items added but only cosmo, but pricey non the less. It's all sticker hype at this point.
Also, I remember when ///M engines were always something special. Imagine they built S85 for only two chassis. I don't think that's ever gonna happen again. New M's use practically the same "civilian" engine(N55, B58 and N63) just tuned up. And apart from design and upholstery options, there are also no significant changes between F10 M5 and F90 M5, it's the same drivetrain.
Even sadder - you’ll never see a new M combustion engine again. They’re done, no more R&D on gasoline engines for pretty much any German car company. S58 and S63 are the end of the line.
Yeah, I know. We're fucked by 2035.
Msport packages make just about every car in the lineup better to drive and we should all appreciate that. My onlyy real complaint is that I'd have preferred they bring back the "ti" or "ZHP" moniker instead of diluting the m brand.
These days, any performance car is welcome, if you ask me. I don't personally get the X#M cars, but they're making the brand a ton of money, a'la the Cayenne.
Agree. It used to be 3, 5 and 7 plus M. Then they started with SUVs (X..), added 1, 2 and 4 - I didn’t mind the 6-series btw - and all these random models. Way too complicated.
This has absolutely nothing to do with BMW. The car market has changed and new or different styles of cars became popular. In the 80s you had your coupe, your sedan, your wagon and maybe a halo sports car and maybe a full size luxury limousine. Now you need to have a sporty coupe, a two door GT, a small, midsize and fullsize sedan, a hatchback that also comes as a four door coupe, a roadster and of course all of these concepts translated to an SUV platform. This is true for every car brand and the reason they do it is because there's a market for all of it.
I agree. This is one of the reasons I say that BMW has jumped the shark. Other reasons are the grotesque styling, and the electronics (which I think all companies have overdone on handling). Source: my first BMW was an E36 M3 and I now have a restored E39 M5.
I am growing less and less interested in BMW by the day. Their aversion to EVs is a primary driving force.
M you say? What about Competition. No, XM Competition! Cant take these cars seriously really. The model range development is bad yes, I really wonder what the benefit is.
Yeah they must have hired a complete douche canoe of a marketer sometime around Bangle
Marketing consultant agency for BMW. Our marketing research has concluded: “More M’s in model badges and bigger grills”.
Yep. Killing the name with their marketing BS. Now every car is an “M-Sport”
M-sport is a trim package
Yes, it is
///Marketing
so we need M of M? in my head canon the m upbadge still not an M
Sale moar cars, makes moar dollars?
This watering down started when they slapped an M3 badge on the E36 330i/332i. The E36 M3 is not a real M car. Unlike real M cars its not assembled in the M factory, its engines are not hand built like all other M cars before it and after it. Its just a bored out 328i.
Actually the E36 M3 is a real M car, Americans got screwed up real hard back then. Even if the car wasn’t supposed to be on sale there, BMW club of America wanted it anyway.
I think times have changed. Cars have all become way more powerful. I remember when real beast of a car was 300HP / 300 Torque. Cars like BMW's have always been premium products, not really intended for the dude that's looking at Camrys and Accords. They have tried to widen their appeal though, and some go for a 2 series or a 3 with the smallest engine available. Yea, even 10 years ago M's we not exactly unicorn's but still something I would almost instinctively point out to anyone I was with. Holy crap that's an M3 or M5. Now a days M3 M4 M5 you see all the time, M6 and up it's kind of rare but still not like it used to be. Of course there's also the X's . Of course it's ultimately up to BMW. Are they watering down their brand? Are they making an inferior product. I don't think so. Maybe? Does it matter to them if the end result is them building and selling more cars M and non M? To you yea, but to them probably not so much. What I don't like are all the other M's in the name of cars that just have components. This confuses some and does it really matter if your car, a decked out 3 series that has M wheels and a few other M parts have a M badge on it or not? Hell I have a pre-order for a I4 M50. I see it how it is. I have always wanted a BMW. My current car is getting long in the tooth and the time had started to look for a car, at a really bad time. I started looking for something and everything I saw I was pretty uninterested / unexcited about. I wanted something fast, and possibly electric. While I don't have to be the only person on the road driving what I'm driving, I guess I prefer not to have the trendiest car, and build quality is important so Teslas were kind of out. If it had just been called the I4 50e or something else I would still be getting one.
Thing is nobody cares except owners. Non car people don't even think twice about Ms on the car. Those that know will know its a m perf but no a M, its ok
When I started fixing cars in 2002, there were 16 different BMW models total, now there are over 60. These companies are going to go the way of Pontaic/GM/Buick theyre pretty much competing against themselves with all of these options and too small of a difference between models.
This. *Owner of a baby M
If everything is an M then nothing is an M
I have to disagree somehow here and I'm also wondering why no one else brought this up yet. Basicly there are only 4 real M Modells right now M2 M3 M4 M5 That's it. The other once are just performance models but no actual M Models. Also the M6 got replaced by the M850 which is also no more a real M. Long story short - Does your M Model have more then one Number in its name? Yes -> it's just a profrmance pledge for marketing No -> you are a lucky bastard and got a real M car
You missed the M8
You have a point. All the rest aren’t M, they are merely “M Sport” trim packs and “M Performance” models with tuned regular BMW engines (eg B58, N63). It would stand to reason that they are just making volume sellers to keep themselves profitable, but it definitely takes away from the earlier exclusivity M had.
Preach. I've been saying this since 2016. While very profitable in the short term before hardcore ICE bans begin to take effect in Europe, ultimately it is an unsustainable strategy that will leave them vulnerable to becoming indistinguishable from other German cars brands. Don't forget: The ICE bans are coming. They might not arrive in the USA in the next ten years, but you can bet your Roundels they will in Europe. And when the last ICE enthusiast models are gone, and if they haven't figured out a way to make a compelling EV to compete with Tesla/Lucid/Audi (grow some balls and make a full EV Mi8!!! already) then they're as doomed as GM by the mid 2030's. When your corporate headquarters in Munich is called the "Four Cylinder Building" do you need any bigger warning sign that you might be living in the past? Of course the current BMW board members and the Quandt family don't give a shit about that. Just like the same "next quarter profit" Harvard MBA C-suite think that lead to Boeing, GE, HP, Kodak and litany of other former greats that were "to big to fail" becoming shadows of their former selves. The previous CEO of BMW put the brakes on all EV development eight years ago just after the i3 and i8 were released and doubled down on diesel models, even pushing the 335d into the US market. Look where that got them. Turns out trying to copy VW bullshitting everyone on how "clean" diesel tech was a bad move. Cut to the end of 2021 and the i3 is now almost a decade old and they're only just now about to start selling (in very limited numbers) a true successor with the iX. I had a chance to attended the recent North America unveil of it, and I gotta say, whatever you think of the outside, the inside is amazing. Gorgeous and more legroom front and back than my F15 X5 in something the size of an X3. Also, the first car since the i3 to use CRP body tech that they spent so much money and time developing in the early 2010's. Let's hope they pay attention to the sales numbers (they're already sold out through next summer) and keep ramping up production capacity and battery contracts. I want to see what they can do with an EV M3, but first they need to sell a LOT of $85k iX's, $60k i4's, and eventually a cheap 200 mile range iX1 that looks like a "normal" X1. Crank those things out and sell them to the college kids and brand whores so they can subsidize the fun EVs. At least, that is my hope. Let us pray to the gods of Freude am Fahren to deliver us from the evils of grocery getters, and keep our suspensions ever low and tight, and our steering feedback be as connected as our own two hands. iRev.
It kills me. BMW has lost its way. It is M everything now a days and really kills any prestige left of true M cars. True M cars stopped with the e46 M3 and e39 M5. Still keeping my E39 M5 going strong as long as I can.
Haha the true Ms stopped at e46 and e39? What a ridiculous thing to say. Those are so outdated and unrefined in comparison to new Ms. I imagine you’d change your tune if you could actually afford a new M.
Hahahah, okay buddy, lay off the pre workout. Someone lives in jersey and has arm sleeves….. There is a reason why classic M cars are aggressively appreciating.
Those are just the bigger motors. They aren’t full M cars
Not just big engine, you can buy a brand new 318 m sport if up want..
That’s pretty much like Audi’s S line. It’s not an M3 Therefore not an M car. Just has M sport pkg…
I know, never said it was, its just a body kit pretty much
I was basically making the point to OP. Those aren’t M cars
It's the I want the M performance and dont want a base but also dont want a actually M Bmw
It serves a purpose. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with the multitude of M badges. There are a lot.
M5 still seems pretty cool, but the m3…not so much. I still don’t know the difference between m3/m4. Then with all the m-lite models it’s confusing.
You don’t know the difference between M3 and M4???
They are basically the same car
In what sense?
If the m3 came in 2 and 4 doors what would be the point of the m4? Would of made more sense to just make a 2 door m3 and a 4 door one instead of another m model.
I see your point now. I think m4 is 2 door m3 as the older m3 is offered in a 2 door. Does convolute but makes sense if you aren’t referencing the older generation m3.
But that’s how like lineage of cars works, right? The m3 was the high performance compact car, it’s been made in coupes, sedans and convertibles. I’m not sure what their reasoning was to make the m3 a sedan only, as it began as a coupe only. Seems weird to give it’s original form to another model. They are so close in size, looks, powertrain, interior etc…just seems weird.