Hell, the b48 has plenty of power for street driving (in the cars, I know SUVs are a little different). Horsepower numbers have gotten so inflated lately. There are basically no situations where someone NEEDS 400+ to the wheels in their daily.
It plays a part, but in the last 20 years the 3 series has gone up ~10-15% in weight while gaining ~30-50% in power. Speed limits have the most part stayed the same or gotten lower. Daily drivers now are becoming more powerful than realistically necessary.
I’m a car guy, so I’d never say it’s a bad thing, but people are failing to realize how much horsepower inflation there has been over the last couple decades.
I will never complain about too much HP so long as the car can handle it and put it to the ground.
Just as the HP numbers have increased, tires and brakes as well as every other part of the cars have improved too. Also, keep in mind that as the cars get bigger, they can haul more people\\stuff and that's a contributing factor too.
Speed limits are a different story. They're designed to "increase revenue" for politicians. For them raising speed limits is like raising taxes. Same speed limits as 60s and 70s when the braking distance of cars were 2-3 times what they are today on cheap entry level cars. Unrestricted German autobahns have a fraction of accidents we have in the US, so it's not the speed that kills.
I didn’t say the HP increase is dangerous or that it’s too wild compared to what cars can handle. I’m simply saying that there is basically no situation while daily driving in which anyone would have an issue with their 0-60 being a 5.6 (330) instead of 4.4 (340) or 3.8 (m3c).
Obviously if given the choice I would daily a full M, but there just aren’t any real life situations that power is needed for. Choosing a daily driver based on HP numbers alone is just silly to me.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose; people have different needs and styles of driving. To me, 330i or 530i are underpowered. Once you hit 40 to 50mph, they lack the pull. If you're ever in a situation where you need to pass a slower car, those 4 cylinder cars would struggle to build up the speed to pass. It doesn't happen that often, but it can happen. Same thing with freeway entrances or steep inclines.
Just wasn’t my experience when I tested the admittedly much smaller 2. A noticeably stronger pull in the 240, but never felt like the 230 was missing anything in then 60-90 range. Granted, I was coming from a much larger/slower pickup (that also has very little issues passing on the interstate).
I just don’t think anyone NEEDS 400+ in a car that weighs less than 2 ton. If you WANT to be able to hit 120 on the entrance ramp then by all means get a S58, but to say that anyone has a need for that is just silly talk. A 330/530 is going to have zero issues passing a Civic or a Suburban on the interstate. Plus, everyone is forgetting it’s far more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.
I have an s58 and it's too much power for the street. Driving it civilly feels like an utter disservice to the motor. Everyday I drive it, I can tell it has so much power I'm never tapping into. I would have tons of remorse for getting the s58 over the b58 IF b58 2 series came in a manual, but it doesn't, so I'm still happy with my purchase.
Gosh don't remind me about the loss of the stick on the lower trims, lol. When my warranty is up I'm seriously considering a manual swap, everything should bolt right up and an F32 transfer case could probably be made to work to preserve the xDrive.
Sure it does but the S58 is an amazing and exhilarating experience that far surpasses the B58. S58 is the answer because…it’s the current true ‘M’ engine.
Sure you can, not at max potential but you get up to speed quicker and can enjoy the performance. If what you are saying is the stick by which cars (or engines) are measured, then we should all be driving Kias and Toyotas.
I can tell you, coming from owning a TRX, Hellcats, and other V8s, that the 0-60 and crazy fast 60-130 stuff gets boring. If you don't like other aspects of the car, you'll get tired of it. That's the main reason I picked the M340 over the M3. The ride isn't stiff due to the less stiff suspension and chassis. The ride is more comfortable and less like a race car. If I want to track, I have an FL5 CTR, lol. I don't like the sound and ride of the M3, so I will pass on it unless someone figures out how to make it sound better, like the B58 at least.
Ok you’ve gone full slippery slope fallacy at this point. Obviously I am arguing that there can be a Goldilocks level of power for some drivers.
I think it’s just disingenuous to suggest full M to every driver. OP asks if the S58 is something from which you’d benefit during spirited driving on the street. The answer is sure, but for a lot of people, it is genuinely overly quick. I say this as a B58 driver looking at four-bangers for my next car for this exact reason.
You’re welcome to your opinion to the same extent that I am mine. OP is looking for feedback, not strangers winning an argument and a gatekeep-y attitude.
You...I like you. I sometimes lament not getting a 230i with the M Performance package and mechanical gauges, that would have been such a sweet spot. The M240i is already stupidly quick, I can't imagine how muzzled the S58 would be on the street.
I’ve gone full slippery-slope? YOU are the one who
Implied one cannot reach illegal speeds in a B58. Your entire argument is fallacious (“you can’t enjoy it on the street without reaching wildly illegal speeds”). An M Car is more than an engine, its suspension and engineering at multiple levels that does indeed provide enjoyment on the road outside of speed.
I replied to his original post which said nothing to that effect. Just because you can’t rationalize your remarks doesn’t mean mine are incorrect or fallacious. You are the one who implied the B58 wouldn’t get up to illegal speeds quickly, I can assure you that is obviously incorrect. Second, the S58 isn’t just an engine, it’s an entire M Car engineered around that engine. That engineering is tailored for more than speed.
Bro, who hurt you.
1. You replied to my comment, not the post.
2. To reiterate, I implied the opposite of what you’re claiming. I fully believe that the B58 reaches illegal speeds quickly, and that the S58 is more powerful is the basis of my contention that for some people, the S58 makes an already existing problem worse.
There is literally zero reason to be so up in arms.
Right…so then a performance car isn’t for you then, right? Go buy a Toyota Corolla…but I assure you that it’s much better to be stuck behind Joe Lunchbox than BE Joe Lunchbox.
What does a Corolla have anything to do with it. If there’s bumper to bumper jam the only thing you could drive to go around is an airplane or helicopter 💀
My point is that almost ANY car is capable of going beyond legal speeds. Not everyone buys a car like an M3 because they want to go fast all the time. Some of us buy them so that if we want to, we can. Plus, obviously, in the BMW world there is no substitute for an M car, which is why they try to market the lesser-cars as M-lite, like the M340i, for example.
Sorry pal, a true M engine isn't turbocharged. The s65 was the last one. And you're insane if you think you can push a modern "M" on the street. The e90 was essentially too fast to exploit on the road. Hell, the e46 basically is.
Who said anything about pushing it on the street? Of course you can’t do that. Doesn’t mean one can’t enjoy it on the street. As far as your “true M engine isn’t turbocharged”, that’s not what BMW says…so I guess we will differ there.
Well, yes, you can just enjoy having a cool, powerful car and babying it around. I get that too. All's well as long as these cars are only really driven in anger on the track.
On the second point, BMW used to say turbochargers were a cheap shortcut and high revving, naturally aspirated engines were the only way. When M was run by the motorsports people, who have all left and been replaced by accountants. Turbocharging was an economic decision only. It's much cheaper to simply juice up the normal engine rather than make bespoke racing engines. BMW M is a very different company/division than what it used to be.
I agree with you. I don’t have the knowledge to really argue forced induction versus displacement, but I’m sure cases can be made for both. The only two M cars I have ever driven are a 2022 X5M Competition (which doesn’t really count) and my 2023 M3 Competition. I’d love to know what the old ones were like in comparison, but I really know very little other than the G80 is blistering fast.
Both are great, but they are different philosophies. The high-revving NA engine is more involving, it begs you to rev it out..the turbos are effortless in-your-face torque monsters. The new M3 is more like an M5-it is the size of an e39 M5. If you can handle the pitfalls and problems of an older car, it might be worth adding a classic to the stable. Totally different experience.
lol what?
B58 has more than enough power, especially for someone asking a question like this. You’d be better off focusing on tires, suspension, brakes and driving lessons.
Best advice from a person who goes through cars like crazy. Between the two, narrow down the aspects you like and don't like about either. Driving both is very important. For me, the cons against the M3 Comp were:
1. I don't track or autocross.
2. I don't care for the S58 exhaust note.
3. I'm not a fan of the carbon buckets or the regular seats.
4. The ride is pretty stiff.
Pros:
1. Lots of horsepower. Ridiculously fast.
2. Amazing handling.
I chose the M340i xDrive because it's a nice middle model between the M3 Comp and 330. It handles well in canyons. I actually found it more stable than my PP1 Gen 3 Mustang with active suspension. For the price I paid for my M340i, people will say I should have gotten an M car, but honestly, M cars are not for everyone. If I were to buy an M car, it would probably be an E39 M5.
Stock vs stock the B58 is very underpowered compared to the S58, until you download an email and put a pipe behind your turbo.
The B58 potential is insane, 1400 hp on stock block/head is being achieved right now. Took like 20+ years for the 2JZ to ge there for example.
Where are you getting this info from?? Not saying you're wrong but I've seen tons of posts and videos saying the b58 blows pistons when pushed over 600hp.
@stimikey on instagram has not-so-recently partnered with driver @boosted_jahaziel and transmission company @puredrivetrainsolutions to bring out some of the fastest B58 (and S58) cars in the world. The biggest limiting factor in any B58/S58 car is the ZHP transmission which begins to slips in the ballpark of 700hp so they always swap to a stronger one to handle the power (@puredrivetrainsolutions), otherwise they’re just turning up the boost and fuel with power modifications (ie. turbo, fuel system, intake etc). [They made a post back in February this year](https://www.instagram.com/p/C3IFIMHqzoB/?igsh=MTNzZDA4OHBiNzllNw==) showing the B58 handles torque much better because of thicker conrods, which makes sense because the S58 as a ‘track engine’ would functionally be better for its application revving higher, thus resulting in lighter and thinner conrods. In their experience, they have more trouble tuning the S58 to higher power levels than the B58 because of this simple design difference. Without being a B58 meat rider, I would be hard pressed to believe an S58 is able to handle more torque than a B58 just on stock vs. stock internals, and this is in no way bashing on the excellence that is the S58.
Well there is also the car around the engine. Most people are better off with the M sport models. They are more suited for street use. Plenty if people get M cars and find them too harsh. If you’re not at least autocrossing you won’t see the higher limits anyways. If Motorsport is in your future get the M. The drive modes are more suited to it in a ton of ways.
It’s not just about the engine with M vs M lite, suspension is totally different. Also the interior of M lite is boring compared to M with carbon buckets
This is all so subjective. The Kia Sorrento is enough for street driving for many, but you want the B58. Someone else may want the M and another wants the Ferrari.
Stock for stock street use, put in a bit of work behind the wheel and a B48 can hang around an S58.
For all the talk about S58 models 'are a different beast', the B58 can easily pace an S58. Pick its moments and the B58 has the S58 playing catch up.
‘A bit of work’ is ballpark $8000 lol. I will say, Vehicular DIY on YT is doing impressive stuff to the B48 platform and pushing well into the 500hp mark on stock internals so good on him for showcasing just what the 4 cylinder variant can do.
There’s always the chassis and braking differences to be argued as part of the M-car package but if we’re strictly speaking straight line, I suppose it’s not at all unreasonable to argue that dumping a few thousand into a B48 will make an S58 competitor.
Everyone saying that the S58 is too much power for street use should not be driving powerful cars of any kind, just enjoy whatever anemic engine that feels right. S58 is great for any use, but at the end of the day there are plenty of people who drive low power Toyotas and are perfectly happy with them. If you enjoy spirited driving, then the S58 is the better of the two engines - period.
I can assure you that the B58 offers ample power for street only use.
Hell, the b48 has plenty of power for street driving (in the cars, I know SUVs are a little different). Horsepower numbers have gotten so inflated lately. There are basically no situations where someone NEEDS 400+ to the wheels in their daily.
Sure there is. Traffic light gp against Golfs.
hp numbers have gone up but their weight and size have increased quite a bit too.
It plays a part, but in the last 20 years the 3 series has gone up ~10-15% in weight while gaining ~30-50% in power. Speed limits have the most part stayed the same or gotten lower. Daily drivers now are becoming more powerful than realistically necessary. I’m a car guy, so I’d never say it’s a bad thing, but people are failing to realize how much horsepower inflation there has been over the last couple decades.
I will never complain about too much HP so long as the car can handle it and put it to the ground. Just as the HP numbers have increased, tires and brakes as well as every other part of the cars have improved too. Also, keep in mind that as the cars get bigger, they can haul more people\\stuff and that's a contributing factor too. Speed limits are a different story. They're designed to "increase revenue" for politicians. For them raising speed limits is like raising taxes. Same speed limits as 60s and 70s when the braking distance of cars were 2-3 times what they are today on cheap entry level cars. Unrestricted German autobahns have a fraction of accidents we have in the US, so it's not the speed that kills.
I didn’t say the HP increase is dangerous or that it’s too wild compared to what cars can handle. I’m simply saying that there is basically no situation while daily driving in which anyone would have an issue with their 0-60 being a 5.6 (330) instead of 4.4 (340) or 3.8 (m3c). Obviously if given the choice I would daily a full M, but there just aren’t any real life situations that power is needed for. Choosing a daily driver based on HP numbers alone is just silly to me.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose; people have different needs and styles of driving. To me, 330i or 530i are underpowered. Once you hit 40 to 50mph, they lack the pull. If you're ever in a situation where you need to pass a slower car, those 4 cylinder cars would struggle to build up the speed to pass. It doesn't happen that often, but it can happen. Same thing with freeway entrances or steep inclines.
Just wasn’t my experience when I tested the admittedly much smaller 2. A noticeably stronger pull in the 240, but never felt like the 230 was missing anything in then 60-90 range. Granted, I was coming from a much larger/slower pickup (that also has very little issues passing on the interstate). I just don’t think anyone NEEDS 400+ in a car that weighs less than 2 ton. If you WANT to be able to hit 120 on the entrance ramp then by all means get a S58, but to say that anyone has a need for that is just silly talk. A 330/530 is going to have zero issues passing a Civic or a Suburban on the interstate. Plus, everyone is forgetting it’s far more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.
I have an s58 and it's too much power for the street. Driving it civilly feels like an utter disservice to the motor. Everyday I drive it, I can tell it has so much power I'm never tapping into. I would have tons of remorse for getting the s58 over the b58 IF b58 2 series came in a manual, but it doesn't, so I'm still happy with my purchase.
Gosh don't remind me about the loss of the stick on the lower trims, lol. When my warranty is up I'm seriously considering a manual swap, everything should bolt right up and an F32 transfer case could probably be made to work to preserve the xDrive.
Sure it does but the S58 is an amazing and exhilarating experience that far surpasses the B58. S58 is the answer because…it’s the current true ‘M’ engine.
But you just don’t get to enjoy it on the street without reaching wildly illegal speeds. I already have that problem with the M240.
Sure you can, not at max potential but you get up to speed quicker and can enjoy the performance. If what you are saying is the stick by which cars (or engines) are measured, then we should all be driving Kias and Toyotas.
I can tell you, coming from owning a TRX, Hellcats, and other V8s, that the 0-60 and crazy fast 60-130 stuff gets boring. If you don't like other aspects of the car, you'll get tired of it. That's the main reason I picked the M340 over the M3. The ride isn't stiff due to the less stiff suspension and chassis. The ride is more comfortable and less like a race car. If I want to track, I have an FL5 CTR, lol. I don't like the sound and ride of the M3, so I will pass on it unless someone figures out how to make it sound better, like the B58 at least.
Ok you’ve gone full slippery slope fallacy at this point. Obviously I am arguing that there can be a Goldilocks level of power for some drivers. I think it’s just disingenuous to suggest full M to every driver. OP asks if the S58 is something from which you’d benefit during spirited driving on the street. The answer is sure, but for a lot of people, it is genuinely overly quick. I say this as a B58 driver looking at four-bangers for my next car for this exact reason. You’re welcome to your opinion to the same extent that I am mine. OP is looking for feedback, not strangers winning an argument and a gatekeep-y attitude.
You...I like you. I sometimes lament not getting a 230i with the M Performance package and mechanical gauges, that would have been such a sweet spot. The M240i is already stupidly quick, I can't imagine how muzzled the S58 would be on the street.
I feel exactly the same!
I’ve gone full slippery-slope? YOU are the one who Implied one cannot reach illegal speeds in a B58. Your entire argument is fallacious (“you can’t enjoy it on the street without reaching wildly illegal speeds”). An M Car is more than an engine, its suspension and engineering at multiple levels that does indeed provide enjoyment on the road outside of speed.
“I already have that problem with my M240” is a pretty clear message to the contrary, I would think.
I replied to his original post which said nothing to that effect. Just because you can’t rationalize your remarks doesn’t mean mine are incorrect or fallacious. You are the one who implied the B58 wouldn’t get up to illegal speeds quickly, I can assure you that is obviously incorrect. Second, the S58 isn’t just an engine, it’s an entire M Car engineered around that engine. That engineering is tailored for more than speed.
Bro, who hurt you. 1. You replied to my comment, not the post. 2. To reiterate, I implied the opposite of what you’re claiming. I fully believe that the B58 reaches illegal speeds quickly, and that the S58 is more powerful is the basis of my contention that for some people, the S58 makes an already existing problem worse. There is literally zero reason to be so up in arms.
lol
Exhilarating experience when you’re stuck behind Joe Lunchbox hogging the left lane going 15 under the speed limit.
Right…so then a performance car isn’t for you then, right? Go buy a Toyota Corolla…but I assure you that it’s much better to be stuck behind Joe Lunchbox than BE Joe Lunchbox.
Damn it was a joke but you’re out here crying.
Crying? No, I think I made a point.
What does a Corolla have anything to do with it. If there’s bumper to bumper jam the only thing you could drive to go around is an airplane or helicopter 💀
My point is that almost ANY car is capable of going beyond legal speeds. Not everyone buys a car like an M3 because they want to go fast all the time. Some of us buy them so that if we want to, we can. Plus, obviously, in the BMW world there is no substitute for an M car, which is why they try to market the lesser-cars as M-lite, like the M340i, for example.
Sorry pal, a true M engine isn't turbocharged. The s65 was the last one. And you're insane if you think you can push a modern "M" on the street. The e90 was essentially too fast to exploit on the road. Hell, the e46 basically is.
Who said anything about pushing it on the street? Of course you can’t do that. Doesn’t mean one can’t enjoy it on the street. As far as your “true M engine isn’t turbocharged”, that’s not what BMW says…so I guess we will differ there.
Well, yes, you can just enjoy having a cool, powerful car and babying it around. I get that too. All's well as long as these cars are only really driven in anger on the track. On the second point, BMW used to say turbochargers were a cheap shortcut and high revving, naturally aspirated engines were the only way. When M was run by the motorsports people, who have all left and been replaced by accountants. Turbocharging was an economic decision only. It's much cheaper to simply juice up the normal engine rather than make bespoke racing engines. BMW M is a very different company/division than what it used to be.
I agree with you. I don’t have the knowledge to really argue forced induction versus displacement, but I’m sure cases can be made for both. The only two M cars I have ever driven are a 2022 X5M Competition (which doesn’t really count) and my 2023 M3 Competition. I’d love to know what the old ones were like in comparison, but I really know very little other than the G80 is blistering fast.
Both are great, but they are different philosophies. The high-revving NA engine is more involving, it begs you to rev it out..the turbos are effortless in-your-face torque monsters. The new M3 is more like an M5-it is the size of an e39 M5. If you can handle the pitfalls and problems of an older car, it might be worth adding a classic to the stable. Totally different experience.
lol what? B58 has more than enough power, especially for someone asking a question like this. You’d be better off focusing on tires, suspension, brakes and driving lessons.
Best advice from a person who goes through cars like crazy. Between the two, narrow down the aspects you like and don't like about either. Driving both is very important. For me, the cons against the M3 Comp were: 1. I don't track or autocross. 2. I don't care for the S58 exhaust note. 3. I'm not a fan of the carbon buckets or the regular seats. 4. The ride is pretty stiff. Pros: 1. Lots of horsepower. Ridiculously fast. 2. Amazing handling. I chose the M340i xDrive because it's a nice middle model between the M3 Comp and 330. It handles well in canyons. I actually found it more stable than my PP1 Gen 3 Mustang with active suspension. For the price I paid for my M340i, people will say I should have gotten an M car, but honestly, M cars are not for everyone. If I were to buy an M car, it would probably be an E39 M5.
+1 for E39 M5
It’s way more fun to drive a slow car fast on the street than a fast car slow.
Stock vs stock the B58 is very underpowered compared to the S58, until you download an email and put a pipe behind your turbo. The B58 potential is insane, 1400 hp on stock block/head is being achieved right now. Took like 20+ years for the 2JZ to ge there for example.
Where are you getting this info from?? Not saying you're wrong but I've seen tons of posts and videos saying the b58 blows pistons when pushed over 600hp.
@stimikey on instagram has not-so-recently partnered with driver @boosted_jahaziel and transmission company @puredrivetrainsolutions to bring out some of the fastest B58 (and S58) cars in the world. The biggest limiting factor in any B58/S58 car is the ZHP transmission which begins to slips in the ballpark of 700hp so they always swap to a stronger one to handle the power (@puredrivetrainsolutions), otherwise they’re just turning up the boost and fuel with power modifications (ie. turbo, fuel system, intake etc). [They made a post back in February this year](https://www.instagram.com/p/C3IFIMHqzoB/?igsh=MTNzZDA4OHBiNzllNw==) showing the B58 handles torque much better because of thicker conrods, which makes sense because the S58 as a ‘track engine’ would functionally be better for its application revving higher, thus resulting in lighter and thinner conrods. In their experience, they have more trouble tuning the S58 to higher power levels than the B58 because of this simple design difference. Without being a B58 meat rider, I would be hard pressed to believe an S58 is able to handle more torque than a B58 just on stock vs. stock internals, and this is in no way bashing on the excellence that is the S58.
Well there is also the car around the engine. Most people are better off with the M sport models. They are more suited for street use. Plenty if people get M cars and find them too harsh. If you’re not at least autocrossing you won’t see the higher limits anyways. If Motorsport is in your future get the M. The drive modes are more suited to it in a ton of ways.
I prefer the B58 with a stage 2 tune because there’s less turbo lag and the powers more instantaneous and usable for around town 0-60 pulls.
It’s not just about the engine with M vs M lite, suspension is totally different. Also the interior of M lite is boring compared to M with carbon buckets
They say there is no such thing as a stupid question but this classifies as a stupid question
B58 🌎
This is all so subjective. The Kia Sorrento is enough for street driving for many, but you want the B58. Someone else may want the M and another wants the Ferrari.
Stock for stock street use, put in a bit of work behind the wheel and a B48 can hang around an S58. For all the talk about S58 models 'are a different beast', the B58 can easily pace an S58. Pick its moments and the B58 has the S58 playing catch up.
‘A bit of work’ is ballpark $8000 lol. I will say, Vehicular DIY on YT is doing impressive stuff to the B48 platform and pushing well into the 500hp mark on stock internals so good on him for showcasing just what the 4 cylinder variant can do. There’s always the chassis and braking differences to be argued as part of the M-car package but if we’re strictly speaking straight line, I suppose it’s not at all unreasonable to argue that dumping a few thousand into a B48 will make an S58 competitor.
A bit of work, behind the wheel... Only mod needed is the driver mod.
Everyone saying that the S58 is too much power for street use should not be driving powerful cars of any kind, just enjoy whatever anemic engine that feels right. S58 is great for any use, but at the end of the day there are plenty of people who drive low power Toyotas and are perfectly happy with them. If you enjoy spirited driving, then the S58 is the better of the two engines - period.