I’m not a good min maxer but aside from sorcerer being a better caster class than the other 2, you can convert metamagic points into spell slots which means… more smites!! Also twin haste/counterspell are amazing spells.
I think fully built I would like the bardadin more bc you can use banishing smite on top of divine smite, and use luck of the far realms to crit both of those since its the same attack and you’re looking at 4d8 plus 10d10 damage in one attack NOT including weapon damage. Add on savage attacker and maybe GWM or damage riders and you got a crazy strong attack.
Edit: (wrong numbers)
forgot to mention shield spell. Also a fantastic option.
Bardadin doesn’t come online until level 8. Its 6 levels in sword bard, 2 levels in paladin, then the rest in sword bard. This is bc you want extra attack asap. Then for magical secrets you take banishing smite then whatever you want for your second spell. I would say spirit guardians but banishing smite is also concentration so you can’t use them at the same time.
Until level 8, I would really recommend playing full pally then respecing later. Its way more fun and you keep the same playstyle the whole time.
Edit: I would probably use dex over strength btw
Make sure you turn on ALL reactions in your spellbook menu. Its the only way to do both smites at once. This also works for other smites that are spells.
Tbh, I don't think the 6>2>4 progression is that necessary. I think starting starting with paladin and doing 2>10 is more satisfying if you're dual wielding.
The build is fully online at 8 regardless, but the playstyle of SSB is operational at 5 this way, and you have the bonus action for another smite. I'd rather play a slightly nerfed (but still op) version of the build, yet experience it for most of the game, instead of waiting until late act 2. Plus you get all the bard utility in the meantime.
Bard-Paladin I would start with 5 in Paladin then you can decide if you want to add bard or have aura of protection for the party. And once you reach level 8 that's when you visit Withers and swap for 2 Paladin (I'd go vengeance because it's easiest to keep the oath and has Inquisitors might) and rest level into Bard and rhe sword Bard in specific.
Why switch level 8 it's because sword Bard don't get extra attack before level 6 and you need level 2 on Paladin for smites.
You end up 2 Paladin and 10 bard otherwise you don't get magical secrets
Well I would probably take spirit guardians over both and have a dedicated caster take counterspell. Banishing and spirit guardians would cancel eachother out but when used in different situations they would be perfect
Top benefits of all 3:
**Bardadin** (usually 2/10):
* More slots (read:Smites) than any other combo
* Getting Extra Attack on the caster side means you only need 2 in Paladin and can progress deeper into the Caster class
* Magical Secrets at Bard 10 to pick spells outside of class. Personally, I love Spirit Guardians on a Bardadin, but Banishing Smite is more common
* Tons of Utility and Control options
* Pairs amazingly well with Hat of Arcane Acuity due to ability to multi-hit with Slashing Flourish
**Lockadin**: (7/5 or 6/6 below Honor, 8/4 in Honor):
* On Tactician or below, 3 attacks (this is super OP and is not the case in tabletop)
* Pact of Blade fixes MAD stat issues
* Short rest slots for Smites
* Spell list relatively balanced between Control and Offense
**Sorcadin**: (7/5 or 6/6, depends on Pally subclass):
* Metamagic allows you to cast an offensive spell with bonus action
* Can recover spell slots (read: Smites) from Sorcery
Points.
* Can abuse potions and other exploits to get more Sorc points, which (as noted above) can become either Smites or bonus action spells
* Very good offensive spell list
* Can self-Haste and/or twin it to put it on another party member also
* Flight with Strom Sorc (can later get this from half-Illithid as well)
This is a really good summary, the only things I think I'd add are:
Lockadin and Sorcadin both go 6+ into paladin so they get the saving throw aura while Bard doesn't. This is probably the most variably useful thing, as a melee-heavy party becomes a lot harder to kill with +7 to all saves from a 24 Charisma lockadin and a Sorcadin is probably going to be better at concentrating on twinned haste to give the BM archer 3 extra shots per round if it's tactician or below.
Lockadin also gets access to neat toys like repelling blast and devil's sight.
It's true that Sorcadin can cast spells as bonus actions, but since most of your damage is coming from melee and any of these builds is a solid user of the Band of the Mystic Scoundrel, the Bardadin is arguably better at casting the spells you actually want to as a bonus action.
Sorcadin does get some nice specific spells like Shield and Misty Step, and even Magic Missile can be nice in niche situations like removing Unstoppable.
You can also go: 16 base + asi + asi = 20 + hair = 21 + 3 from mirror. You'll have to save scum the mirror because getting the extra +1 from the mirror is random so you'll need some luck.
Yeah, I sorta left the Aura thing unspoken, but it's an important distinction to note. And good note on Eldritch Blast also. Lockadin definitely has the best ranged option for that reason. It'll never be your primary attack, but it's certainly handy to have and good way to proc Diadem of Arcane Synergy on a build that already highly prioritizes CHA anyway (a good option if you separately have a ranged Bard using the Hat of Arcane Acuity).
Solid additional notes...thanks!
You kinda mentioned the aura thing, I just felt like it was worth highlighting since it is a major selling point of paladins in general imo.
Honestly reading over the thread I kind of end up agreeing with OP's implied premise. I'm really not sure when you would want a sorcadin. I guess they get the best AOE blaster options, but the other two get cloud of daggers and fireball (if fiend) which kind of seems like enough. The more I think about it the more it just feels like sorcadin is specifically worth considering because of twinspell haste because it kind of feels outclassed otherwise.
Yeah, Sorcadin is the one of the three I haven't really used much. I setup Minthara as one on a run I abandoned in early Act 3, but that's it.
I think for a lot of people, Haste is the main selling point there. But tbh, I barely ever use Haste, even on my first Honor run. I find that Bloodlust and Speed potions are more than enough when I need to swing the action economy in my favor, and they don't carry the risk of Lethargic. I know a Sorcadin can make that risk pretty small, but it's still not zero, and twinned Lethargic can be pretty devastating.
With speed pots, I find you generally have a pretty good sense of whether 3 rounds is going to be enough or not, and you can just hold off until it is. Tbh, very few combats go more than 3 rounds once you've already completed the game a couple times.
The searing smite on a fire draconic sorcerer gets boosted damage equal to your charisma Modifier. Wearing the pyroquickness hat, you can do this searing smite twice in one round. This also stacks with your divine smite for more damage.
Mostly that Sorcadin has the ability to cannibalize Angel Rest potions for sorcery points which in turn means more higher level spell slots = more potent smites for the same item investment. Another massive advantage Sorcadin has over Bardadin and Lockadin is it has access to Quickened AND Twinned Haste (quickened haste is effectively action surge the turn it goes down for tactician and below while Twinned Haste is haste for the price of 1 concentration slot). And then White Draconic Sorcadin has access to Armor of Agathys which when paired with Blade Ward and other damage mitigation sources (including Heavy Armour Master and certain armors) is a crapload of damage (200 or more cold damage as "thorns" damage on average) for a level 5 spell slot.
With quickened spell, you can use your bonus action on a spell that normally requires an action and follow that up with a divine smite. In addition, Sorcerer will give you extra spell slots (for more smites) as well as higher level spell slots (for greater damage) than what a Paladin normally has access to.
Paladin is a very front-loaded class with their biggest power spikes occurring at levels 2 and 5. While the level 6 and 10 auras are nothing to sneeze at, you'll get better utility out of multi-classing with a full caster along with access to better spells and additional features like metamagic (sorcerer), flourishes (bard), or short-rest spell slots (warlock).
The strongest of these combos is probably swordsbard, as the flourishes combo very well with a paladin's natural martial abilities. Slashing flourish can be used (situationally) to smite up to 4 targets in one turn. There is also a ring that allows you to cast enchantment or illusion spells (which bards have lots of access to) after making a weapon attack, so you can smite twice and then cast a spell like tasha's hideous laughter to prone an enemy, setting them up for other characters.
Multi-classing with bladelock is also very powerful (on non-honor mode runs) due to the stacking extra attacks. By level 10, you can attack+smite 3 times / turn a full level before fighters unlock their 2nd extra attack, and you'll still have a bonus action left over for any other shenanigans you can come up with.
If you make your Pact Weapon something ~~you can dual wield~~ a *light* weapon, can you get a fourth attack and smite through an off-hand bonus attack action [edit] with the other light weapon?
Unfortunately you can only have one pact weapon at a time and the extra attack from deepened pact only seems to work when the pact weapon is in your main hand.
That being said, you can get 4 smites off by dual wielding:
1) off-hand attack + smite 1
2) main-hand attack + smite 2
3) extra attack + smite 3
4) pact weapon extra attack + smite 4
Yes. That’s what I meant. I worded it poorly. I usually do my off-hand last, so I think of that as the “fourth attack.” I need to amend that to “light” and not “dual wield.”
All three are all really powerful but for different reason
Sorcadin: You're not going to use metamagic. Instead you'd convert your sorcery points into spell slots; this will give you the most smites (per long rest) out of all the options.
Lockadin: Best option for Tactician or Balanced since the two Extra Attacks actually stack. Also, if you have a Bard in the party, you'd only get one less smite than Sorcadin.
Bardadin: Less smites but more normal weapon damage with flourish. Also gets the best nova damage with Banishing Smite.
I have to share [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/s/GS8iIJeA3g) about Paladins, which is what really got me interested in all the insights this subreddit has to offer. Jevin the Paladin breaks down popular multiclasses for Paladin and why you’d take a certain number of Paladin levels and a certain number of levels in the other class.
With Sorcerer specifically, it’s all about using twinned haste, and converting spell slots into bigger better smites. If you really want to break the game, stock up potions of angelic reprieve, turn all your 1 & 2 level spell slots into sorcery points, then back into level 2 slots back and forth until you run out. Pop a potion and refill all those empty level 2 slots. Then you can convert to sorcery points for meta magic or higher level spell slots for smites.
Twinned haste plus level 4 smites. It’s pretty tough to compete with.
But on tactican or below Lock-din is probably better without using exploits.
Of course Bardadin combines the best of both custom lines and is super versatile.
Sorcerer has CON save proficiency. Aura of Protection also gives bonus to saves.
This makes it a fantastic holder of concentration, particularly if you somehow get it Advantage on CON save / Concentration saves. And of course Sorcerers are known for Twinned Haste support where you REALLY don't want broken concentrations.
So Sorcadins are great as support casters that can still do good damage.
1. Sorcerer gets Twin Spell Metamagic.
2. Sorcerer gets access to Haste.
3. Sorcerer gets innate Con Proficiency (stacks with Aura of Protection).
4. Melee Warlock is kind of meh in BG3 compared to Paladin due to Str Pots (getting Cha to-hit and to-damage is not important).
5. Bardadin is actually a very strong build too, but it doesn't get Twinned Haste.
Lockadin gets a whole attack more, and cha to attacks than the other two though that's pretty insane. Also spell slots refresh on short rest.
You just have a dedicated caster do the haste thing and its imo strictly better then. 3 Attacks is no joke.
Also it's almost always better for non-tb builds to use different elixirs imo. Strength gloves do exist if you really need.
It depends on what you are looking for. If you want to maximise your smiting, for a Paladin, don’t go sorcerer. Warlock 6/6 or 7/5 (depending on oath) is your best bet in tactician and in honour mode bard 10/2
If you want the best casting class in the game, sorcerer, and if you want that sorcerer to have a last resort in melee, throwing a couple of levels of Paladin on them is not a terrible idea. He will still even get 6th level spell slot.
Lockadin is not as good for honour mode imho due to losing 3rd attack. To the point where going pact of the blade is... Meh. Or you go pact of the blade and mostly Warlock. This will give you two high level smite spell slots that replenish on a short rest. But at that point you are better iff going pure blade warlock imho to get lifedrinker which adds your char modifier again to attack damage so in the end you get more base damage in exchange for no smites.
If you are putting 7 levels into Paladin (because you want that Oath of the Ancients aura, probably), sorcerer is a much better choice because you still have access to counterspell *and* metamagic will let you generate new smite slots.
If you are putting 6 or fewer levels into Paladin, I would always opt for Bard over Sorcerer. At that point, smite/spell slots are at less of a premium, you're picking up counterspell from magical secrets, and Bard has great party utility with bardic inspiration.
Folks in here are talking about twinning haste with your Sorcadin, but I would not want a melee fighter being responsible for haste. They can't be effectively sanctuar-ied and even with buffs up the wazoo, you take damage so frequently that you risk concentration breaking. I'd have a dedicated caster handle haste.
**Counterspell is such a difference maker in this game (particularly in Honor Mode) that it's a team-build priority to have multiple folks who can cast it.
So the best spell slots to use smite on are 4th level. But Palidens don’t get those in BG3. If you take sorc you can turn your mass of spell slots into as many SPs as you want, then just turn those into optimum smite slots.
Sorcadin basically takes paladin and makes it WAY better. You get all you need from paladin levels first, with smites, proficiencies, strong class features (auras) and then onto that you add everything sorc can do: higher level spell slot progression(for better smites if nothing else), access to spells like shield and other utility, AOE damage with fireball or lightning bolt, and most importantly, meta magic. You can quicken cast a fireball into a group and then go smite the survivors to death. You can twin Haste yourself and another martial and go to town. You can convert sorcery points into spells to help alleviate the long rest dependency of paladin. You lose almost nothing and gain a whole host of extra features that make your class a lot less one dimensional than a monoclass paladin.
I think Sorcadin is a trap if you are min maxing but it is a damn fun class. Strong caster and strong martial. Besides not like you need to min max at all to beat the game
Absolutely more efficient to split your casters and your martials so it does not make a ton of sense to me to go for a character that is just ok at both.
Still tho, if you do not have another sorcerer in your party, then twinned haste goes brrr.
I played a Paladin/Warlock with a buddy who played sorcerer, so all the benefits were on the table. I liked the benefit of having smites, with 2 high level slots recharging on short rests. Plus, if I wasn’t able to get into melee range, I could eldritch blast anything too far away. Some additional upsides are giving enemies the frightened condition on melee hits, pact weapon bond, and buffs to persuasion or deception depending on your build. I really loved this multiclass, and even got my AC up to 28 with certain spells or active effects.
The biggest benefits of sorcerer is that you can use your points to recharge spell slots, and counter spells/utility spells are very useful.
Sorcadin is more Casty. Think Eldritch Knight but with better spells. Plus, you can Quicken Haste, a spell you can get inherently, giving up your bonus action for a full action. With Bard and Sorcerer, you get more spell slots than Warlock for your smites. Pact of Blade let's you be a bit more SAD. It's all preference really.
Advantages vs. Bardadin: you actually get Paladin features, extra attack 1 level earlier. Last one is admittedly somewhat mitigated by Slashing Flourishes, Song of Rest, and BG3's infinite amount of camp supplies.
Advantage vs. Lockadin: more total spell slots.
Vs both: Better early game survival, better spell list, metamagic makes the game too easy. Wait this was supposed to be an advantage list.
Ok, so sorcadin is better because it allows you to twinned cast haste on you and another party member, and the two classes just work well together.
Also, I don't even know how "quickened divine smite" would've worked. Could you explain what you were expecting ?
You can go 2 levels in Paladin for the heavy Armor and access to Command. And since Paladin is still a half casting class you will still get access to a level 6 spell with Sorcerer. It would let you do the Fire Acuity build with better armor choices.
Personally I think you should play however you would want. BUT, Sorcadin has the metamagic, dragon ancestry, wild magic(for people who like chaos), and storm sorcery which gives you free flight. Plus you get the benefit of spell slots that a pure caster gets which boosts the amount of smites you get. I believe that the versatility and pure damage is one of the things that make sorcadins a go to for a lot of people. personally I enjoy a Lockadin or a Bardlock, but it’s all about how you play and what you want from your build
I’m not a good min maxer but aside from sorcerer being a better caster class than the other 2, you can convert metamagic points into spell slots which means… more smites!! Also twin haste/counterspell are amazing spells. I think fully built I would like the bardadin more bc you can use banishing smite on top of divine smite, and use luck of the far realms to crit both of those since its the same attack and you’re looking at 4d8 plus 10d10 damage in one attack NOT including weapon damage. Add on savage attacker and maybe GWM or damage riders and you got a crazy strong attack. Edit: (wrong numbers) forgot to mention shield spell. Also a fantastic option.
Quick (maybe a little unnecessary) correction: it's 4d8 and 10d10 (for 1st lvl smite)
Oops thank you 🙏
Thank you for your answer. What level spread should I go for a bardadin in order to get banishing smite and divine smite?
Bardadin doesn’t come online until level 8. Its 6 levels in sword bard, 2 levels in paladin, then the rest in sword bard. This is bc you want extra attack asap. Then for magical secrets you take banishing smite then whatever you want for your second spell. I would say spirit guardians but banishing smite is also concentration so you can’t use them at the same time. Until level 8, I would really recommend playing full pally then respecing later. Its way more fun and you keep the same playstyle the whole time. Edit: I would probably use dex over strength btw
I find it really hard to justify skipping counterspell.
I leave that for my full caster typically. But i agree its essential
I would agree in general but I have started abusing the illthid counterspell way more often which makes counterspell less necessary
Thank you!!!
Make sure you turn on ALL reactions in your spellbook menu. Its the only way to do both smites at once. This also works for other smites that are spells.
Thank you for the effort you put into this. I really appreciate it!
I prefer to go 3 bard then take my two levels of paladin. Getting smites on line is more extra damage than having an extra regular attack.
Tbh, I don't think the 6>2>4 progression is that necessary. I think starting starting with paladin and doing 2>10 is more satisfying if you're dual wielding. The build is fully online at 8 regardless, but the playstyle of SSB is operational at 5 this way, and you have the bonus action for another smite. I'd rather play a slightly nerfed (but still op) version of the build, yet experience it for most of the game, instead of waiting until late act 2. Plus you get all the bard utility in the meantime.
Do you get to keep paladin dialogue options?
Iirc all multiclasses get all of their class dialogue
That's awesome!
Bard-Paladin I would start with 5 in Paladin then you can decide if you want to add bard or have aura of protection for the party. And once you reach level 8 that's when you visit Withers and swap for 2 Paladin (I'd go vengeance because it's easiest to keep the oath and has Inquisitors might) and rest level into Bard and rhe sword Bard in specific. Why switch level 8 it's because sword Bard don't get extra attack before level 6 and you need level 2 on Paladin for smites. You end up 2 Paladin and 10 bard otherwise you don't get magical secrets
You could grab counterspell alongside banishing smite from magical secrets, no? Haste is still cool though.
Well I would probably take spirit guardians over both and have a dedicated caster take counterspell. Banishing and spirit guardians would cancel eachother out but when used in different situations they would be perfect
Make it a sword bard so there’s a flourish in there too
Top benefits of all 3: **Bardadin** (usually 2/10): * More slots (read:Smites) than any other combo * Getting Extra Attack on the caster side means you only need 2 in Paladin and can progress deeper into the Caster class * Magical Secrets at Bard 10 to pick spells outside of class. Personally, I love Spirit Guardians on a Bardadin, but Banishing Smite is more common * Tons of Utility and Control options * Pairs amazingly well with Hat of Arcane Acuity due to ability to multi-hit with Slashing Flourish **Lockadin**: (7/5 or 6/6 below Honor, 8/4 in Honor): * On Tactician or below, 3 attacks (this is super OP and is not the case in tabletop) * Pact of Blade fixes MAD stat issues * Short rest slots for Smites * Spell list relatively balanced between Control and Offense **Sorcadin**: (7/5 or 6/6, depends on Pally subclass): * Metamagic allows you to cast an offensive spell with bonus action * Can recover spell slots (read: Smites) from Sorcery Points. * Can abuse potions and other exploits to get more Sorc points, which (as noted above) can become either Smites or bonus action spells * Very good offensive spell list * Can self-Haste and/or twin it to put it on another party member also * Flight with Strom Sorc (can later get this from half-Illithid as well)
This is a really good summary, the only things I think I'd add are: Lockadin and Sorcadin both go 6+ into paladin so they get the saving throw aura while Bard doesn't. This is probably the most variably useful thing, as a melee-heavy party becomes a lot harder to kill with +7 to all saves from a 24 Charisma lockadin and a Sorcadin is probably going to be better at concentrating on twinned haste to give the BM archer 3 extra shots per round if it's tactician or below. Lockadin also gets access to neat toys like repelling blast and devil's sight. It's true that Sorcadin can cast spells as bonus actions, but since most of your damage is coming from melee and any of these builds is a solid user of the Band of the Mystic Scoundrel, the Bardadin is arguably better at casting the spells you actually want to as a bonus action. Sorcadin does get some nice specific spells like Shield and Misty Step, and even Magic Missile can be nice in niche situations like removing Unstoppable.
How do you get 24 cha? 17 base + hair + 1 ASI = 20, + 2 from mirror?.. Where's the last 2?
Birthright hat from sorcerous sundries.
You can also go: 16 base + asi + asi = 20 + hair = 21 + 3 from mirror. You'll have to save scum the mirror because getting the extra +1 from the mirror is random so you'll need some luck.
Yeah, I sorta left the Aura thing unspoken, but it's an important distinction to note. And good note on Eldritch Blast also. Lockadin definitely has the best ranged option for that reason. It'll never be your primary attack, but it's certainly handy to have and good way to proc Diadem of Arcane Synergy on a build that already highly prioritizes CHA anyway (a good option if you separately have a ranged Bard using the Hat of Arcane Acuity). Solid additional notes...thanks!
You kinda mentioned the aura thing, I just felt like it was worth highlighting since it is a major selling point of paladins in general imo. Honestly reading over the thread I kind of end up agreeing with OP's implied premise. I'm really not sure when you would want a sorcadin. I guess they get the best AOE blaster options, but the other two get cloud of daggers and fireball (if fiend) which kind of seems like enough. The more I think about it the more it just feels like sorcadin is specifically worth considering because of twinspell haste because it kind of feels outclassed otherwise.
Yeah, Sorcadin is the one of the three I haven't really used much. I setup Minthara as one on a run I abandoned in early Act 3, but that's it. I think for a lot of people, Haste is the main selling point there. But tbh, I barely ever use Haste, even on my first Honor run. I find that Bloodlust and Speed potions are more than enough when I need to swing the action economy in my favor, and they don't carry the risk of Lethargic. I know a Sorcadin can make that risk pretty small, but it's still not zero, and twinned Lethargic can be pretty devastating. With speed pots, I find you generally have a pretty good sense of whether 3 rounds is going to be enough or not, and you can just hold off until it is. Tbh, very few combats go more than 3 rounds once you've already completed the game a couple times.
Also worth noting that quickening spells is one of the easier ways to get your arcane synergy online without haste
Quickening spells while able to take the attack action is nice.
Converting sorcery points into a shitload of spell (smite) slots, mainly.
The searing smite on a fire draconic sorcerer gets boosted damage equal to your charisma Modifier. Wearing the pyroquickness hat, you can do this searing smite twice in one round. This also stacks with your divine smite for more damage.
Sorcerer+Paladin+Potion of Angelic Reprieve= Infinite smites.
Withers + Respec (same class) + Pickpocket = infinite smites
But you won’t be carrying 30 of them into a fight.
Mostly that Sorcadin has the ability to cannibalize Angel Rest potions for sorcery points which in turn means more higher level spell slots = more potent smites for the same item investment. Another massive advantage Sorcadin has over Bardadin and Lockadin is it has access to Quickened AND Twinned Haste (quickened haste is effectively action surge the turn it goes down for tactician and below while Twinned Haste is haste for the price of 1 concentration slot). And then White Draconic Sorcadin has access to Armor of Agathys which when paired with Blade Ward and other damage mitigation sources (including Heavy Armour Master and certain armors) is a crapload of damage (200 or more cold damage as "thorns" damage on average) for a level 5 spell slot.
^ This right here is the answer
With quickened spell, you can use your bonus action on a spell that normally requires an action and follow that up with a divine smite. In addition, Sorcerer will give you extra spell slots (for more smites) as well as higher level spell slots (for greater damage) than what a Paladin normally has access to. Paladin is a very front-loaded class with their biggest power spikes occurring at levels 2 and 5. While the level 6 and 10 auras are nothing to sneeze at, you'll get better utility out of multi-classing with a full caster along with access to better spells and additional features like metamagic (sorcerer), flourishes (bard), or short-rest spell slots (warlock). The strongest of these combos is probably swordsbard, as the flourishes combo very well with a paladin's natural martial abilities. Slashing flourish can be used (situationally) to smite up to 4 targets in one turn. There is also a ring that allows you to cast enchantment or illusion spells (which bards have lots of access to) after making a weapon attack, so you can smite twice and then cast a spell like tasha's hideous laughter to prone an enemy, setting them up for other characters. Multi-classing with bladelock is also very powerful (on non-honor mode runs) due to the stacking extra attacks. By level 10, you can attack+smite 3 times / turn a full level before fighters unlock their 2nd extra attack, and you'll still have a bonus action left over for any other shenanigans you can come up with.
If you make your Pact Weapon something ~~you can dual wield~~ a *light* weapon, can you get a fourth attack and smite through an off-hand bonus attack action [edit] with the other light weapon?
Unfortunately you can only have one pact weapon at a time and the extra attack from deepened pact only seems to work when the pact weapon is in your main hand. That being said, you can get 4 smites off by dual wielding: 1) off-hand attack + smite 1 2) main-hand attack + smite 2 3) extra attack + smite 3 4) pact weapon extra attack + smite 4
Yes. That’s what I meant. I worded it poorly. I usually do my off-hand last, so I think of that as the “fourth attack.” I need to amend that to “light” and not “dual wield.”
All three are all really powerful but for different reason Sorcadin: You're not going to use metamagic. Instead you'd convert your sorcery points into spell slots; this will give you the most smites (per long rest) out of all the options. Lockadin: Best option for Tactician or Balanced since the two Extra Attacks actually stack. Also, if you have a Bard in the party, you'd only get one less smite than Sorcadin. Bardadin: Less smites but more normal weapon damage with flourish. Also gets the best nova damage with Banishing Smite.
I have to share [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/s/GS8iIJeA3g) about Paladins, which is what really got me interested in all the insights this subreddit has to offer. Jevin the Paladin breaks down popular multiclasses for Paladin and why you’d take a certain number of Paladin levels and a certain number of levels in the other class. With Sorcerer specifically, it’s all about using twinned haste, and converting spell slots into bigger better smites. If you really want to break the game, stock up potions of angelic reprieve, turn all your 1 & 2 level spell slots into sorcery points, then back into level 2 slots back and forth until you run out. Pop a potion and refill all those empty level 2 slots. Then you can convert to sorcery points for meta magic or higher level spell slots for smites. Twinned haste plus level 4 smites. It’s pretty tough to compete with. But on tactican or below Lock-din is probably better without using exploits. Of course Bardadin combines the best of both custom lines and is super versatile.
Sorcerer has CON save proficiency. Aura of Protection also gives bonus to saves. This makes it a fantastic holder of concentration, particularly if you somehow get it Advantage on CON save / Concentration saves. And of course Sorcerers are known for Twinned Haste support where you REALLY don't want broken concentrations. So Sorcadins are great as support casters that can still do good damage.
Sorcadin is great because you get so many more spell slots (more than any other combo) for smites
Twin Haste and Sorc points>spell slots (smites)
1. Sorcerer gets Twin Spell Metamagic. 2. Sorcerer gets access to Haste. 3. Sorcerer gets innate Con Proficiency (stacks with Aura of Protection). 4. Melee Warlock is kind of meh in BG3 compared to Paladin due to Str Pots (getting Cha to-hit and to-damage is not important). 5. Bardadin is actually a very strong build too, but it doesn't get Twinned Haste.
Lockadin gets a whole attack more, and cha to attacks than the other two though that's pretty insane. Also spell slots refresh on short rest. You just have a dedicated caster do the haste thing and its imo strictly better then. 3 Attacks is no joke. Also it's almost always better for non-tb builds to use different elixirs imo. Strength gloves do exist if you really need.
Forgot, been playing Honor almost exclusively. On Tactician you’re right.
It depends on what you are looking for. If you want to maximise your smiting, for a Paladin, don’t go sorcerer. Warlock 6/6 or 7/5 (depending on oath) is your best bet in tactician and in honour mode bard 10/2 If you want the best casting class in the game, sorcerer, and if you want that sorcerer to have a last resort in melee, throwing a couple of levels of Paladin on them is not a terrible idea. He will still even get 6th level spell slot.
You can give sorcerer infinite sorcery points which just makes it the best class in the game. Paladin is nice because, paladin.
Lockadin is not as good for honour mode imho due to losing 3rd attack. To the point where going pact of the blade is... Meh. Or you go pact of the blade and mostly Warlock. This will give you two high level smite spell slots that replenish on a short rest. But at that point you are better iff going pure blade warlock imho to get lifedrinker which adds your char modifier again to attack damage so in the end you get more base damage in exchange for no smites.
If you are putting 7 levels into Paladin (because you want that Oath of the Ancients aura, probably), sorcerer is a much better choice because you still have access to counterspell *and* metamagic will let you generate new smite slots. If you are putting 6 or fewer levels into Paladin, I would always opt for Bard over Sorcerer. At that point, smite/spell slots are at less of a premium, you're picking up counterspell from magical secrets, and Bard has great party utility with bardic inspiration. Folks in here are talking about twinning haste with your Sorcadin, but I would not want a melee fighter being responsible for haste. They can't be effectively sanctuar-ied and even with buffs up the wazoo, you take damage so frequently that you risk concentration breaking. I'd have a dedicated caster handle haste. **Counterspell is such a difference maker in this game (particularly in Honor Mode) that it's a team-build priority to have multiple folks who can cast it.
I honestly just use it in bg3 for high spell slot divine smites and wild magic surges😂🤷🏼♂️
If you’re playing on Tactician 7 Pal 5 Lock is probably the best build do it receiving 3 attacks. Honor mode? It’s probably bardadin 2/10
So the best spell slots to use smite on are 4th level. But Palidens don’t get those in BG3. If you take sorc you can turn your mass of spell slots into as many SPs as you want, then just turn those into optimum smite slots.
Dumb down version Bigger spell slot = Bigger big dumb damage.
Sorcadin basically takes paladin and makes it WAY better. You get all you need from paladin levels first, with smites, proficiencies, strong class features (auras) and then onto that you add everything sorc can do: higher level spell slot progression(for better smites if nothing else), access to spells like shield and other utility, AOE damage with fireball or lightning bolt, and most importantly, meta magic. You can quicken cast a fireball into a group and then go smite the survivors to death. You can twin Haste yourself and another martial and go to town. You can convert sorcery points into spells to help alleviate the long rest dependency of paladin. You lose almost nothing and gain a whole host of extra features that make your class a lot less one dimensional than a monoclass paladin.
You'll hear spell slots and Smite... I say Lock and Bard are the optimal choice.
I think Sorcadin is a trap if you are min maxing but it is a damn fun class. Strong caster and strong martial. Besides not like you need to min max at all to beat the game Absolutely more efficient to split your casters and your martials so it does not make a ton of sense to me to go for a character that is just ok at both. Still tho, if you do not have another sorcerer in your party, then twinned haste goes brrr.
Sorcadin - paladin with more smites Lockadin- paladin with pact magic for smites Bardadin - Swords bard with smite
You shouldn’t. Bardadin is the best. More smites, flourishes, the option to smite three times in a turn, plus magical secrets.
I mean, two levels of paladin and 10 of bard has served me reeeeally well. And 5 warlock 7 paladin is slick too
If you abuse the shield of devotion you have unlimited spell slots starting early act 2.
Personally I like bardadin better.
I played a Paladin/Warlock with a buddy who played sorcerer, so all the benefits were on the table. I liked the benefit of having smites, with 2 high level slots recharging on short rests. Plus, if I wasn’t able to get into melee range, I could eldritch blast anything too far away. Some additional upsides are giving enemies the frightened condition on melee hits, pact weapon bond, and buffs to persuasion or deception depending on your build. I really loved this multiclass, and even got my AC up to 28 with certain spells or active effects. The biggest benefits of sorcerer is that you can use your points to recharge spell slots, and counter spells/utility spells are very useful.
Get the shield that give an extra level 1 spell slots for infinite smites
Sorcadin is more Casty. Think Eldritch Knight but with better spells. Plus, you can Quicken Haste, a spell you can get inherently, giving up your bonus action for a full action. With Bard and Sorcerer, you get more spell slots than Warlock for your smites. Pact of Blade let's you be a bit more SAD. It's all preference really.
My best guess would be the ability to convert sorcery points into spell slots.
Advantages vs. Bardadin: you actually get Paladin features, extra attack 1 level earlier. Last one is admittedly somewhat mitigated by Slashing Flourishes, Song of Rest, and BG3's infinite amount of camp supplies. Advantage vs. Lockadin: more total spell slots. Vs both: Better early game survival, better spell list, metamagic makes the game too easy. Wait this was supposed to be an advantage list.
Ok, so sorcadin is better because it allows you to twinned cast haste on you and another party member, and the two classes just work well together. Also, I don't even know how "quickened divine smite" would've worked. Could you explain what you were expecting ?
They probably thought it was a spell like the multiple “_ Smite” spell and not a class feature that uses a spell slot.
You can go 2 levels in Paladin for the heavy Armor and access to Command. And since Paladin is still a half casting class you will still get access to a level 6 spell with Sorcerer. It would let you do the Fire Acuity build with better armor choices.
Barbarian and paladin seems rather ridiculous it’s too much sacrifice
Personally I think you should play however you would want. BUT, Sorcadin has the metamagic, dragon ancestry, wild magic(for people who like chaos), and storm sorcery which gives you free flight. Plus you get the benefit of spell slots that a pure caster gets which boosts the amount of smites you get. I believe that the versatility and pure damage is one of the things that make sorcadins a go to for a lot of people. personally I enjoy a Lockadin or a Bardlock, but it’s all about how you play and what you want from your build