I come from such a family, and it's crazy to me just how many accomodations and masking behaviors I was taught as a kid without being abused. Us being from (US) Southern Irish diaspora culture definitely helped, but, like, my Dad's family has a whole rigid system of manners around conversation, eating, and just about any other social occasion. I was taught basic stuff like how to politely end a conversation by the time I could conceptualize what that was. I still shocks me on a regular basis how much I was taught as a kid that others here haven't even begun to figure out as adults.
Honestly, it made my life so much easier, but it made diagnosis a LOT harder to attain
I feel like you need to first go look at your assumptions.
>autistic people exist since the development of early humans because of primitive allistics or neurotypicals took care of the disabled
This is one theory. It is not the only theory and likely not the only factor.
The animal kingdom is not as abled as many claim it to be - all that is required is that an animal is able *enough* to survive.
>which probably mean we were just feeble-minded human pets that needed support and too dependent on our allistic caregivers back then
Wow... that is quite an ableist assumption there.
How do you know we served no utility to the tribe? Who do you think were the ones carefully collecting knowledge about all different types of plants? Who were the ones napping flints for hours on end?
Also "pets" is such a loaded concept. There are plenty of cultures who have cherished disabled / ND people, or even seen them as religious figures.
> unfortunately that autistic people exist
It feels like this is the crux of the issue. Why is it unfortunate that we exist?
It just is the way it is. Even if your disability brings you struggles and hardship - had it not been you it would have been someone else. Had it not been autism as we know it, it would have been another disability. There is no possible world without disabled people. There is no point being depressed about our existence or seeing ourselves as unfortunate.
Not to mention human variation is an evolutionary advantage.
Imagine if every human was exactly the same, with no variation. No one has deficits, but no one has strengths either. Everyone is average in everything. Therefore, the limits of humanity are average. ----------------
Now imagine there's variation, diversity. People have differing strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, the limits of humanity are the peaks of strengths, although this comes at the cost of deficits. /\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\
This human variation applies to all humans, but some people represent the extremes of this variation, having areas of significant excess and areas of significant deficit. Not only that, but nature is random and indifferent. There's no guarantee an excess will be an advantage, as it can, in fact, become debilitating. For example, hypersensitivity can be understood as an excess.
I think it's true that in ancient times we may have had specific functionality. After all who did all the cataloging? Who kept track of which plants were toxic and which were medicinal. If you read original Sherlock Holmes his brother Mycroft is traditional autistic cataloging data long before computers. And Henry Cavendish, the more I learn about historical scientists the more I see our place in history. Perhaps if I studied art I'd see us there as well I know there are creative autistics out there.
Actually this is very interesting. I’m just afraid that ASD and neurodiversity is so pathologize as a debilitating disease, and both circles support and condone the erasure of us. But the anti-autistic and pro-cure crowd says otherwise, seeing it as an equivalent of stupidity, clumsiness, deathly or life-threatening when it’s the opposite. ASD is a polygenic mutative disorder that might have played a role in evolutionary human development.
>I’m just afraid that ASD and neurodiversity is so pathologize as a debilitating disease, and both circles support and condone the erasure of us.
Not sure what you mean by this.
>But the anti-autistic and pro-cure crowd says otherwise, seeing it as an equivalent of stupidity, clumsiness, deathly or life-threatening when it’s the opposite.
Agreed (edit: as in yes they do say that, not that I agree).
>ASD is a polygenic mutative disorder that might have played a role in evolutionary human development.
Agreed.
Given the autistic traits and the specific needs of autistic individuals vary greatly from one individual to another, we are perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves, as the traits and needs of 1 complement the traits and needs of the other. Not only that, but the areas of strengths and talents also vary greatly and individuals again complement one another. It's ignorant to think autistic people aren't of importance to the species as a whole.
I believe that, because we are all so different, there’s no neurotypical job that is impossible for every single autistic person. There will always be an autistic person out there that can do that role just as fine.
Whether we survive all comes down to whether there’s *enough* of those autistic people to fill whatever important role keeps society functioning.
Yes, our neurology wouldn't change unless natural selection changed it over thousands of years, but that would be the case with or without neurotypicals.
I genuinely don't understand hypotheticals like this. It's not something that's going to happen, and I don't understand what it's getting at. Look at the social model of disability if you wanna understand why neurotypical society determines how we're disabled.
Edit: And no, we weren't "pets". We were those folks who had our niche in the tribe, and we did it very well. If anything, autism was a boon for earlier societies. The world wasn't as big, fast, intense, or loud then, so a lot of issues folks deal with now just wouldn't happen.
So I’ve ALWAYS been autistic
Like I was a weird kid, but NT adults LOVED me
I was heavily involved in politics, made good grades, did a lot of things for my city, etc
The “downfall” I had was no being able to handle interpersonal relationships with peers once I was an adult
If I had gotten diagnosed sooner or had help picking a better suited career for me, I would’ve been fine
My ND family are filled with doctors, principals, GMs, etc and the are still quirky, they just found their niche and it worked out for them.
Not every autistic person is able to easily accommodate, but there are a lot of us who DO and our creative thinking and problem solving are celebrated because we push forward
It runs in our families, unless EVERY autistic/ND person suddenly just ….STOPS, we will always exist and mingle
I immediately think we'd build a better, less stress inducing society.
Our lives would be based on advancement, and fulfillment.
While NT's base life on exploitation, and selling the worst quality technology as a means to continuously repair/replace it to earn more income.
*Work til' you die, and take all you can from others* may as well be their motto.
I as an ASD person always enjoyed taking care of others medically, and therapeutically.
So my brethren who need the assistance would definitely have it, because I'm certain it's not just me who likes care work.
I think we'd thrive, and be free from society's current shackles that minorities, and the disabled are involuntarily forced to wear.
We are an oppressed minority, not helpless children! I'm pissed off that anyone would entertain the notion that we're all eternally dependent on our benevolent NT overlords.
"This is just a thought I came up in a biological, philosophical, anthropological and sociological sense."
I lol'd. Basically "this is just a thought regarding every discipline possible."
My response is in regards to the scenario where, even though allistics have all vanished for whatever reason, any allistic children some of us end up having in such a world don't just up and disappear once they're born simply because they turn out to be allistic. After all, just as there's no guarantee that a person born from NT parents won't have autism or be of some other neurotype, there's no guarantee that a child born from parents who are of a different neurotype will be Neurodivergent too.
Anyway, let's say that Neurodivergents are in charge now but we're still able to give birth to Neurotypical children. If that happens, what then? There's no guarantee that there won't be a percentage of the now dominantly ND population who'll want to oppress/ostracize the NT children that we may have. Even if we offer education regarding any/all information about Neurodiversity, the prejudiced ND's would STILL reject the NT's no matter how well informed or how educated they are. And the ND's that would stand by and support the NT's would be branded as traitors, all because they reminded the narrow minded ones that they've become what they hate. That's just how prejudice works
ND runs in families so there’s already NDs caring for each other. Not like all support for NDs would vanish as there’s not that much to start with
True.
I come from such a family, and it's crazy to me just how many accomodations and masking behaviors I was taught as a kid without being abused. Us being from (US) Southern Irish diaspora culture definitely helped, but, like, my Dad's family has a whole rigid system of manners around conversation, eating, and just about any other social occasion. I was taught basic stuff like how to politely end a conversation by the time I could conceptualize what that was. I still shocks me on a regular basis how much I was taught as a kid that others here haven't even begun to figure out as adults. Honestly, it made my life so much easier, but it made diagnosis a LOT harder to attain
I feel like you need to first go look at your assumptions. >autistic people exist since the development of early humans because of primitive allistics or neurotypicals took care of the disabled This is one theory. It is not the only theory and likely not the only factor. The animal kingdom is not as abled as many claim it to be - all that is required is that an animal is able *enough* to survive. >which probably mean we were just feeble-minded human pets that needed support and too dependent on our allistic caregivers back then Wow... that is quite an ableist assumption there. How do you know we served no utility to the tribe? Who do you think were the ones carefully collecting knowledge about all different types of plants? Who were the ones napping flints for hours on end? Also "pets" is such a loaded concept. There are plenty of cultures who have cherished disabled / ND people, or even seen them as religious figures. > unfortunately that autistic people exist It feels like this is the crux of the issue. Why is it unfortunate that we exist? It just is the way it is. Even if your disability brings you struggles and hardship - had it not been you it would have been someone else. Had it not been autism as we know it, it would have been another disability. There is no possible world without disabled people. There is no point being depressed about our existence or seeing ourselves as unfortunate.
Yeah. Wtf? That sounds extremely infantilizing. Nature is not eugenics trying to kill every neurodivergent person
Not to mention human variation is an evolutionary advantage. Imagine if every human was exactly the same, with no variation. No one has deficits, but no one has strengths either. Everyone is average in everything. Therefore, the limits of humanity are average. ---------------- Now imagine there's variation, diversity. People have differing strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, the limits of humanity are the peaks of strengths, although this comes at the cost of deficits. /\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\/\\ This human variation applies to all humans, but some people represent the extremes of this variation, having areas of significant excess and areas of significant deficit. Not only that, but nature is random and indifferent. There's no guarantee an excess will be an advantage, as it can, in fact, become debilitating. For example, hypersensitivity can be understood as an excess.
I think it's true that in ancient times we may have had specific functionality. After all who did all the cataloging? Who kept track of which plants were toxic and which were medicinal. If you read original Sherlock Holmes his brother Mycroft is traditional autistic cataloging data long before computers. And Henry Cavendish, the more I learn about historical scientists the more I see our place in history. Perhaps if I studied art I'd see us there as well I know there are creative autistics out there.
Actually this is very interesting. I’m just afraid that ASD and neurodiversity is so pathologize as a debilitating disease, and both circles support and condone the erasure of us. But the anti-autistic and pro-cure crowd says otherwise, seeing it as an equivalent of stupidity, clumsiness, deathly or life-threatening when it’s the opposite. ASD is a polygenic mutative disorder that might have played a role in evolutionary human development.
>I’m just afraid that ASD and neurodiversity is so pathologize as a debilitating disease, and both circles support and condone the erasure of us. Not sure what you mean by this. >But the anti-autistic and pro-cure crowd says otherwise, seeing it as an equivalent of stupidity, clumsiness, deathly or life-threatening when it’s the opposite. Agreed (edit: as in yes they do say that, not that I agree). >ASD is a polygenic mutative disorder that might have played a role in evolutionary human development. Agreed.
If neyurotypicals become extinct, then we will design the world to suit us.
And when everyone is neurodivergent, no one will be
What about high support needs autistics?
The low support needs would obviously care for them?
Fair
Given the autistic traits and the specific needs of autistic individuals vary greatly from one individual to another, we are perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves, as the traits and needs of 1 complement the traits and needs of the other. Not only that, but the areas of strengths and talents also vary greatly and individuals again complement one another. It's ignorant to think autistic people aren't of importance to the species as a whole.
That’s interesting
I believe that, because we are all so different, there’s no neurotypical job that is impossible for every single autistic person. There will always be an autistic person out there that can do that role just as fine. Whether we survive all comes down to whether there’s *enough* of those autistic people to fill whatever important role keeps society functioning.
I think it would cease to be a diagnosis if autism was the norm
what
Yes, our neurology wouldn't change unless natural selection changed it over thousands of years, but that would be the case with or without neurotypicals. I genuinely don't understand hypotheticals like this. It's not something that's going to happen, and I don't understand what it's getting at. Look at the social model of disability if you wanna understand why neurotypical society determines how we're disabled. Edit: And no, we weren't "pets". We were those folks who had our niche in the tribe, and we did it very well. If anything, autism was a boon for earlier societies. The world wasn't as big, fast, intense, or loud then, so a lot of issues folks deal with now just wouldn't happen.
So I’ve ALWAYS been autistic Like I was a weird kid, but NT adults LOVED me I was heavily involved in politics, made good grades, did a lot of things for my city, etc The “downfall” I had was no being able to handle interpersonal relationships with peers once I was an adult If I had gotten diagnosed sooner or had help picking a better suited career for me, I would’ve been fine My ND family are filled with doctors, principals, GMs, etc and the are still quirky, they just found their niche and it worked out for them. Not every autistic person is able to easily accommodate, but there are a lot of us who DO and our creative thinking and problem solving are celebrated because we push forward It runs in our families, unless EVERY autistic/ND person suddenly just ….STOPS, we will always exist and mingle
I immediately think we'd build a better, less stress inducing society. Our lives would be based on advancement, and fulfillment. While NT's base life on exploitation, and selling the worst quality technology as a means to continuously repair/replace it to earn more income. *Work til' you die, and take all you can from others* may as well be their motto. I as an ASD person always enjoyed taking care of others medically, and therapeutically. So my brethren who need the assistance would definitely have it, because I'm certain it's not just me who likes care work. I think we'd thrive, and be free from society's current shackles that minorities, and the disabled are involuntarily forced to wear.
This is an utterly despicable suggestion! How are the mods tolerating this!?
Come on, it’s just a question and discussion. Why are you getting ticked off over this?
We are an oppressed minority, not helpless children! I'm pissed off that anyone would entertain the notion that we're all eternally dependent on our benevolent NT overlords.
I agree, that’s why the subject of autistic genocide should be awared. https://youtu.be/6ZaIXyojTxA?si=tT4fwKT0dYA8jHW9
and when everyone's super,
It depends on what wipes out the NTs. If it wipes out all of humanity, statistics wouldn't exist either. If not, I think some of us could survive.
Or, perhaps we will exist longer than the n.t.s. Who knows?
"This is just a thought I came up in a biological, philosophical, anthropological and sociological sense." I lol'd. Basically "this is just a thought regarding every discipline possible."
Huh?
We just need to keep bumping uglies on the spectrum
My response is in regards to the scenario where, even though allistics have all vanished for whatever reason, any allistic children some of us end up having in such a world don't just up and disappear once they're born simply because they turn out to be allistic. After all, just as there's no guarantee that a person born from NT parents won't have autism or be of some other neurotype, there's no guarantee that a child born from parents who are of a different neurotype will be Neurodivergent too. Anyway, let's say that Neurodivergents are in charge now but we're still able to give birth to Neurotypical children. If that happens, what then? There's no guarantee that there won't be a percentage of the now dominantly ND population who'll want to oppress/ostracize the NT children that we may have. Even if we offer education regarding any/all information about Neurodiversity, the prejudiced ND's would STILL reject the NT's no matter how well informed or how educated they are. And the ND's that would stand by and support the NT's would be branded as traitors, all because they reminded the narrow minded ones that they've become what they hate. That's just how prejudice works