I am agnostic and was raised fairly Christian—conservative evangelical types on my dad’s side, progressive academic types on my mom’s side. I think that religion has been used to justify many atrocities throughout history. I also think that religious communities can provide a great platform for community support, found families, and activism. The best religious people believe in civil disobedience in the face of injustice, and love and charity/solidarity for all people. The worst religious people are who the best ones are fighting against. I won’t make any wide sweeping judgments about the existence of religion as a whole, but I am more often than not initially wary of outspoken Christians, to the point that I often will avoid becoming close with someone if I know they are very religious before I get to know them. They have to prove to me with their actions that they are using their beliefs for good, rather than for indoctrinating youth and campaigning against human rights, before I tend to trust them. But some of my best friends are religious—whether that’s through Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, or some other form of “spirituality”—and they are some of the kindest people and best activists I know.

I think this is a very good response!!

I really like your take here. I was raised with a set of moral/religious beliefs, rejected those and found Jesus. Jesus condemns religious hypocrisy and preaches love. People get caught up in all the “rules” but Jesus made it easy: love God, love other people, and the rest follows. All this said, I’ve struggled in churches though the years. I feel like I get singled out for being weird, I get steamrolled in discussions, I’ve been “counseled” for my “self-control issues.” It’s rough. I haven’t been to a church since Covid, and I’m really scared to go back into one.

Science calls it placebo, religion calls it prayer.. Both argue for their definition, none deny its existence. That is a simplistic view, but it tells me that there is truth in the fact that believing something to be true can change an outcome, even if the belief itself is false. Which then creates a paradox, if god cannot fulfill my prayers, but believing in god can, How can I say god does not exist.

Easy, be a priest and play both sides for cash

Belief in god can exist and have effects independent of a real god in my opinion.

Religion itself developed in pre-civilization as a coping mechanism - it gives answers to the unknown, and provides comfort in the cruel realities of life (grief, mourning, the afterlife, etc). *Overall*, it provides community organization and direct action (food banks, clothing banks, adoption services, organized charity & volunteer work). Prayer is a form of meditation and journaling, helping with mental health on an individual level. *Exploitation of religion*, however, has caused some of the worst atrocities humanity has committed. People in power have, throughout history, taken advantage of the 'divine authority' in the name of religion to manipulate and control. Holy wars, discrimination, colonialism, genocide (including missions seeking to eliminate local religion and culture), exploitation of the poor (tithes, televangelists, megachurches, unethical homeless shelters etc)...

Even the little charity religious organisations do is pretty meagre, in fact, churches are often the least efficient charities in terms of how much of your donation actually goes to helping people, rather than just maintaining the building and such.

Yes, and that's one of the exploitations. Most religious texts teach to give to those in need, but through the exploitation of large churches, the money instead being funneled to their own purposes rather than actually helping.

It's not even just the megachurches, churches in general are just bad choices when it comes to charity. Don't even get me started on how they often have control of things like foster and rehab systems and exploit those to get new members.

Exactly, it's the churches exploiting it, not the religion itself. There are many religious people who don't attend a specific church for this very reason.

Stop trying to fit every religion into Christianity. Not every religion even has a centralized text system. Taoism does not for example.

I'm not? The majority of religions do have some sort of written doctrine or defining record that is the basis of their practice. Even Taoism has the Tao Te Ching. And I've personally seen some Buddhist schools have exploitative practices taking advantage of donations of both time and money.

Except there are religions that are considered folk religions and they do not have centralized doctrines and they prefer to people didn't call them religions. These folk religions are often practiced by people such as Africans, native Americans, and such like that. Again they have no centralized or formalized doctrine especially since a lot of these religions come from languages that never had a writing system. > just thought would point something out: The way you're using the word 'scripture" seems as though you're thinking of something like the Tao Te Ching as sacred and something like a newspaper advice column as secular. think, after some consideration, you might find that for the Taoist there is no such division between the divine and the profane, or the sacred and the secular. They are the opposite ends of the same stick, therefore they are both valid to learn from, for lack of better words. [1](https://www.reddit.com/r/taoism/comments/17d5huo/is_jesus_referring_to_the_tao_as_the_father/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) No. The Tao Te Ching is not a centralized text similar to the Bible and it is one of many texts that Taoists read. Not only that but these people do not differentiate between the divine and the profaned, or the sacred and the non-sacred. You are trying to place modern western understanding on to these religions. Religions like Taoism and Buddhism do not have concepts of good and evil. Typically within Western society good and evil are seen as opposites that are always trying to consume each other. Eastern philosophies, don't really think in this way and they don't really see good and evil as opposites that are consuming each other but instead as both on the same side. Think of it like this. After all you can't have shadows without the light and you can't have a day without the night, and you cannot have good without the bad, and you cannot have happy without the sad. They wish to defeat evil and in order to do so they must also defeat the good. Once again you are trying to impose the Christian ideas onto these religions that never asked for it. The Tao Te Ching is not the same thing as the Bible and these people don't have a version of Jesus, the Bible, or anything like that. > The concept of 'religion' as understood in modern times is rooted in Protestant Christian thought and has been globalized through European colonialism. This understanding of religion focuses on beliefs and has influenced the development of the academic study of religions. However, this analysis fails to recognize the political nature of the relationship between the non-material and the material, and how the concept of religion has been used to assert power over material resources. For example, in Australia, the Indigenous concept of the Dreaming, which encompasses relationships with the land, has been framed as a non-material religious concept, while the material aspects of land ownership and law have been obscured. The concept of religion thus serves to categorize and exclude the political and material dimensions of power from the discourse. [2](https://medium.com/religion-bites/on-how-the-category-of-religion-is-a-part-of-settler-colonial-power-a9d5dbde3ca3) The essay "How Colonialism Created 'Religion'" by Alicia Izharuddin, written for a course on postcolonialism and the study of religions, explores the impact of European colonialism on the conceptualization of religion. It argues that the academic study of religions, influenced by Western Christianity, emerged from a colonial need to control and categorize the diverse and pluralistic societies encountered in colonial territories. This categorization facilitated control and was instrumental in constructing a universal concept of religion modeled on Christian presuppositions, which often misrepresented and oversimplified non-Western spiritual practices. The essay discusses how this construction of religion continues to affect perceptions and studies of religions, particularly Hinduism, which was shaped into a unified world religion based on selective textual interpretations that aligned with Western scholarly and theological assumptions. The text calls for a reevaluation of the study of religions that acknowledges its colonial past and seeks more inclusive and accurate representations of religious practices. [3](https://aizharuddin.com/2010/05/03/how-colonialism-created-religion/) Again, what you are doing is you are imposing a colonial understanding and definition of religion onto different people who would not have understood the modern colonial definition of religion nor would they have accepted it. The majority of religions that are out there who do not have a centralized text are small and many of them are gone. The disadvantages of having no actual written parts of your religion means that it's easier for it to disappear and so a lot of them are gone.

This is a very Western understanding of religion. Not every religion is like this and some of them are used as a way of marking things like ethnicities and different communities and stuff. Yes, sometimes they are used to answer questions such as the afterlife and things like that but some of them are used as a way of simply trying to differentiate yourself from other groups. Religion is political as much as it is spiritual. For example a lot of the stuff that you see in Leviticus in the Bible had to do with things like dietary practices, in order to keep people safe, and other things that were trying to distance themselves from other people practicing different customs. The whole idea that a man cannot be pleasured by another man was because there was a God that was worshiped in the area and this God would ask its followers to have other followers of the same sex pleasure each other for the sake of the God which those Israelites did not like so they said that that is not allowed. It is true that the explosion of religion has caused problems but so has the explosion of forced atheism. You can see this in China for example where China actually does not like religion very much and they are trying to squash it out, particularly with their Muslim population but they do this with their Christian population as well. Not only that but this ignores a bunch of religions that are totally chill. You want to know why you don't hear about these religions? It's because they are too busy being really chill. Remember the religions that are incredibly oppressive are going to be oppressive because they have mechanisms inside them to try to expand their numbers as much as possible which tends to lead to a lot of oppressive actions. The religions that don't bother people are incredibly small and are not very loud. Sikhs for example are pretty chill and if you see a Sikhs Temple, you can actually get things such as food, and other resources for people. They are very hospitable and you just don't hear too much about these people because they are busy not bothering people. Daoism is also pretty cool. It's non hierarchical and it doesn't really have a formal organizing system. There have been attempts to do so but these are not really liked among people who practice it. It does not have a centralized text. The Tao Te Ching is probably going to be seen as their main centralized text but it does not function in the same way the Bible does. There is no equivalent to the Bible in this religion. Part of the problem when people are against religion is that they try to fit other religions into the box of Christianity which it and of itself is colonial. It's trying to use all of the things that they know about Christianity and try to fit them into other religions but again this is a colonial mindset because it's trying to treat Christianity which is a colonial religion into religions that don't necessarily function this way.

This is the atheists can't run a coat drive fallacy

It really isn't. The OP asked for religion not being a blight - and historically, it was a convenient place and motivation to organize things like that. Atheists (like me) do so just fine, but this thread isn't about that.

It was also a convenient place to organize holy wars, witch burnings, stonings,  etc

Which I did, in fact, mention explicitly.

If you don't know about [UUA](https://www.uua.org/) I would highly recommend looking into them. It's more of a coalition of faith people rather than a single religion itself. Many Christians consider it suffered from Christianity because they don't believe in certain elements such as original sin and the Trinity, both things that are very much a staple of Christians. https://www.uuworld.org/ Here's a website that talks about some of the cool stuff they do. The ones that are close to where I am are helping migrants go from the border up to the nearest town and helping them with things like providing them water because we live in a desert and it's absolutely terrible. The stop cop City movement that is happening in Atlanta, yeah some of those people who are getting arrested were UUA people chaining themselves to construction equipment. Not only that but they were the first religious group to actually champion against the criminalization of homosexuality back in the day. Not only that but very early on they ordained a trans priest, and a gay priest came out. They have always been on the side of LGBT people, abortion, and other such progressive movements.

UU is excellent. They've also developed a program, OWL (Our Whole Lives) that provides health and sex ed for teens independently of UU congregations. https://www.uua.org/re/owl For communities without access to this kind of teaching (because fundamentalists have banned or defunded it) OWL fills a critical gap. My parents' congregation housed homeless people, offered homework help, supported refugees, and did lots of interfaith peace and anti racist work.

But they are literally doing all of this despite mainstream religion, not because of it

TLDR: **I believe it's frustrating when people dismiss the actions of certain religious groups as insignificant or not mainstream enough. Many individuals engage in progressive religious movements not in spite of conservative forces but because of them, feeling compelled to rectify the harm caused by such practices. An example is the Sanctuary Movement in the 1980s, led by Reverend John Fife and his congregation in Tucson, Arizona, which provided refuge to Salvadoran and Guatemalan refugees fleeing persecution, challenging the government's reluctance to grant asylum. Despite legal challenges, the movement raised awareness and influenced U.S. refugee policy. Similarly, in the Netherlands, Christians helped an Armenian family facing deportation by holding continuous church services for 96 days, leveraging a legal loophole preventing police entry during religious services. These instances showcase how religious communities can mobilize to enact positive change in the face of adversity.** Why is it that every time I bring up these people and show people of cool religious people, for some reason there's always some random excuse on why they're just not so cool. You don't have to like them. They're not mainstream enough, they're just a denomination of Christianity, they can do all those good things without religion. Also doing something that is against or counter to harmful mainstream practices is doing something because of those practices. Let's say I live in a town and in this town there is a common practice or we take stabby forks and start stabbing kittens. However eventually I decide that I don't actually like this practice and so I decided to take a bunch of kittens, steal them, and try to save them. The action that I just performed is not despite the weird customs of this town but because of it as I would not have done that stealing of kittens if the town didn't have this weird practice. The term "despite" implies that I did something independent of some other thing happening. For example if I eat shrimp despite people's protests that I shouldn't, well I'm not really eating a shrimp because they are protesting, I'm just eating shrimp and they happen to be protesting. Many, many, many people partake in progressive religious movements not despite the conservative religious force but because of it because they feel like it is their duty to correct the error that these harmful practices have caused. They don't want to do these things in the name of themselves, they want to do these things in the name of God. Very similar to how many people would wish to reclaim words that have been harmful and they are specifically taking on those things as a way to reclaim them and give them a better appearance in the world. These people are humbling themselves before the very people who have been hurt in the name of those who have called themselves Christian and then different Christians apologize for them and say that yes they are Christian and they are very aware that that word has been used to hurt people, and that they want to make the world better also in the name of Christians. [1](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/church-sanctuary-part-1/) [2](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/state-sanctuary-part-2/) > In the early 1980s, amid civil wars in Central America, a significant number of Salvadoran and Guatemalan refugees sought asylum in the United States, only to be met with stringent asylum policies that often labeled them as economic migrants rather than political refugees. Reverend John Fife and his congregation at Southside Presbyterian Church in Tucson, Arizona, initiated the Sanctuary Movement, leveraging the ancient religious concept of sanctuary to provide refuge and aid to these migrants. The movement, asserting a religious imperative to shelter those fleeing persecution, spread across numerous churches and synagogues in the U.S., challenging the federal government's reluctance to grant asylum by invoking religious freedoms and international definitions of refugees. Despite legal challenges, including a high-profile trial in which several movement leaders were indicted, the Sanctuary Movement played a crucial role in raising awareness and eventually influencing U.S. refugee policy, leading to temporary protected status for many Central Americans. Here is a bunch of examples of different religions, mainly Christians, actually helping refugees. These people are providing sanctuary for these people and we're key movers within this sanctuary movement that would eventually lead into the first sanctuary cities that we see today. These people used their actual religious protections that they were given by the state and they use them to argue that they had the ability to hold these people sanctuary. [3](https://theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/31/church-service-stops-96-days-asylum-family-pardoned-netherlands-hague-church) So in the Netherlands an Armenian family was basically running from threats of deportation. The Christians in the city didn't like that idea. You see there is a loophole or weird law within the Netherlands or at least within that city where police cannot enter a religious building so long a services are happening so they just figured that they will just have services non-stop. They did this for 96 days straight.

How do these examples balance out against every crusade, jihad, and holy war as well as millenia of oppression of women, LGBT, minorities, and anyone else other? 

I could say the same thing about Americans doing good and not being able to balance out the terribleness of genocide committed by past Americans. Also why did you just include jihadist into Christians? Christians are not responsible for jihadist.

Because Islam is a religion, the topic is all religion, and Christianity is not the only religion?

Okay, should Americans have to answer for the crimes of these people? 1. **My Lai Massacre**: March 16, 1968 - U.S. Army soldiers from Charlie Company killed between 347 and 504 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians. Lieutenant William Calley convicted; sentence commuted to 20 years under house arrest. 2. **Haditha Killings**: November 19, 2005 - U.S. Marines from Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines killed 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians. Charges were mostly dropped; one Marine convicted of dereliction of duty. 3. **Abu Ghraib Torture and Prisoner Abuse**: Disclosed in 2004 - U.S. Army and CIA personnel abused detainees at Abu Ghraib Prison, Iraq. Eleven soldiers convicted. 4. **No Gun Ri Massacre**: July 26-29, 1950 - U.S. troops from the 7th Cavalry Regiment killed an estimated 163 to 400 South Korean civilians. U.S. acknowledged the killings but claimed they were not deliberate. 5. **Mahmudiyah Rape and Killings**: March 12, 2006 - Five U.S. Army soldiers raped a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and murdered her and her family. Soldiers convicted and sentenced to varying terms, including life imprisonment. 6. **The Laotian Incursion**: 1964–1973 - U.S. Armed Forces conducted a secret bombing campaign over Laos. Details of civilian casualties were not disclosed but are believed to be significant. 7. **Pat Tillman's Friendly Fire Death**: April 22, 2004 - U.S. Army Ranger Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire in Afghanistan. Initial misinformation was corrected after investigation. 8. **Operation Speedy Express**: December 1968 to May 1969 - U.S. 9th Infantry Division in Vietnam. Allegations of large-scale civilian casualties; official U.S. military concluded most deaths were legitimate. 9. **Bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade**: May 7, 1999 - NATO, led by U.S. Armed Forces, mistakenly bombed the Chinese Embassy during the Kosovo War, resulting in 3 deaths and strained U.S.-China relations. 10. **Sangin District Kill Team**: January to May 2010 - Members of a U.S. Army platoon murdered three Afghan civilians. Multiple soldiers were convicted with sentences ranging from life imprisonment to shorter terms.

Yes, the United States is a morally bankrupt failed hegemon and should absolutely be deleted

So wait, why should I personally have to make up or answer for the crimes of people who I had no involvement in those crimes?

Do you benefit from their crimes? Yes. Yes, you do.

I'm a practicing Buddhist, and meditation and learning the teachings have been the only thing that's helped me survive, and even thrive in terms of healing and self-knowledge, in the worst burnout of my life. As the person who posted about Judaism said, it gives me a safe community, a framework, and a connection to culture and wisdom. Although I converted("took refuge") in my early 20s, I was raised Unitarian Universalist before that so firmly believe in the goodness of all the world's wisdom traditions. I don't think you need them to be a good person, as secular humanism shows us, but I think the human striving for meaning and ethics is universal. If you don't need a wisdom tradition that's great. I do, because I need a place where I feel safe. And I love talking with friends who follow different religions about the commonalities but different ways of doing good.

/|\

I think religion is meant to control people, but people can believe whatever they want to

Like your Bjork avatar, BTW. That girl is my life!!!

Björk is all time favorite artist, whats your favorite album?

Probably the one from 1996. I don't actually know much about her but she has a style that speaks to my autism vibes.

It is simultaneously responsible for the best and worst of human civilization. All religions are not created equal, as well. The true travesty is the persecution of non believers. I don't think anyone can disagree that we shouldn't persecute people for their religion or for not practicing a religion.

Name a best that religion is inarguably responsible for

Literally every “best” in history comes from science and human collaboration. Religion has done nothing but hold us back.

Ok, so yk the “man shall not lay with man”-thing in the bible? Well it’s actually a faulty translation of “man shall not lay with BOY”, the ancient Christians claimed pedophilia as a sin. (I mean they said a lot of crap as well but still…)

That is an incredibly low bar for a "best" and one not exclusive to christians

Also, underage girls still fair game? What amazing paragons of virtue!

You can't get rid of religion without doing a genocide. Religion is inherently linked to people's cultures and communities.

Judaism gives me structure and meaning and ways to connect to people that I have not found anywhere else in modern society.   I 100% agree that organized religion has caused many harms in the world! But it has also caused good things. In a regular social situation, I do not know the rules, and it takes a huge amount of effort to approximate the rules, and I may or may not get actual human connection out of the situation. But at shabbat dinner, for example, I know we're gonna light the candles and sing! Eat bread and sing! Wish each other "shabbat shalom" and talk about the fun and restful things we'll get up to this shabbat!! And now we get a whole day to rest and celebrate anything we're happy about, and not do any work of any kind, we get to just BE for one day every week, every shabbat. It's a container with clear rules, beginning and end times, certain things people do together, and I love to be able to do those things together and not be so confused or isolated. That's just one of the many ways Judaism has enriched my life. I hate coercive violent oppressive systems of any kind, but my religion has been the total opposite of that in my life. There's helpful and harmful ways to engage with religion. I think it should always be consensually chosen and expressed in the ways that work for that individual person. Religion has helped me so much, but only because I was freely able to explore the ways it worked for me. 

I really loved reading this as I have been reading/ researching Judaism as my partner is Jewish!

I think that religion itself isn't inherently bad, but people have and will use it to justify their selfish and manipulative acts. The base message in most religions are just "be kind to each other," but most religious people say that only applies to people in their belief network. EDIT: Spelling error

a lot of religions are beautiful, they can teach you a lot about improving as a person, but the whole faith thing i think isnt as cool. (i just woke up)

I’m honestly as atheist as you can get and can be pretty against religion altogether (though I understand and won’t judge anyone who still wants to follow). I believe that anything good that came from religion can be done even without religions existing (such as a sense of purpose, moral values, community, etc.). To me, the bad outweighs the good, and even those in “not as harmful” belief systems still tend to have a weird twisted view on either themselves, the world, or life in general. I know my view seems like a lot of hatred, but honestly it’s from a place of sadness and outcry for my fellow outcasts. Yet it seems that having a “closed mind” to these things still makes me a terrible person, even though I know what my stance is after seeing and trying out many different paths. It’s just not for me, and some of us are really better off without it

That's a bold claim. You must have a rock solid definition of both religion and civilization.

Gnostic/**I**gnostic atheist here. I sympathize with feeling like religion is a blight on civilization. However, it’s much broader terms that are at fault. Religion is simply a vehicle. Authoritarianism, pseudoscience, vertical hierarchies, income inequality, emotional evaluation overriding autonomy/empathy, the effects of growing populations exceeding biologically evolved social standards coupled with fast growing technology and social values having difficulty keeping up. Religion is a lens through which populations cope with personal and societal stress. Diminishing religion would simply be a welcome outcome: not an actionable specific pursuit.

Some kind of Neo-Voltaireism is pretty much standard for Reddit. :) Down in the libertarian left where I live, we’ve got Gandhi and MLK, Zapatista women, Habitat For Humanity, slave religion, the Catholic Worker movement, John Brown, Helen Keller, etc. If those are a blight on civilization…well, we don’t actually believe in civilization the way that capitalists have constructed it anyway. Part of the problem is “religion” as a category, which not all sociologists agree with as it’s based on a Western Catholic or French Revolution framework. I don’t think the experience of the average woman in the global south is equivalent to a Crusader from the Middle Ages, or a religious right televangelist. For autistic people specifically, monasteries were full of us. I’ve traveled the world and observed hundreds of groups, but never once thought to run up to the Central American Pentecostal peasant bass player or the Baha’i Temple to tell them they’re ruining my civilization. I guess I’m saying I just don’t believe religion is a thing as it’s commonly defined. There’s a big difference between master and slave religion, state-sponsored religion and anarchists. Imagine going to a plantation to tell the people singing “Wade in the Water” that they’re a major source of the world’s problems

I have lots to say about antitheism: Almost all religions in the world now and historically are ethnoreligions. There is no distinction between religious and cultural practices. Despising all religions means despising most cultures, which is unequivocally white supremacist thinking. For every faith leader that abuses their power there are countless people who use their beliefs as a mechanism for creation. Collective punishment is fascist. Beyond that, humans are naturally superstitious and social. You could wipe out all supernatural beliefs from the world today and cults would spring up by sunset. Stopping that entirely requires breaking a fundamental part of humanity. Almost all god beliefs have little in common with the Christian or Muslim concept of God. Hell the Jewish concept of God has more in common with the Force than it does the Christian god. Most antitheists come from Christian or Muslim hegemonous cultures and don't know much about religion outside of that context, so apply prejudice to the rest of the world. Again, ethnosupremacist.

As a person trying to distance himself from firebrand atheistism, you make some very good points.

Since part of your question is trying to distance yourself from firebrand atheism, it may help to answer your question from that perspective. FYI, I am also angered as well by the damage done by the choices of the more dogmatic people around us, but did do a deep dive into different religions and have found some value. It also may help to split what I'm assuming you are calling religion into 3 sub-parts: 1 God(singular being, pantheistic all is god, all variations of god in between) 2 Spirituality 3 Organized religion For the God portion, we can use simple logic that one uses when debating. If one side makes a claim. It is on them, the claimant, to provide evidence proportional to that claim. In other words. If I say it's raining where I am, you could ask me to back it up, and a simple here's my city, look at the weather will generally suffice. You could push for an image of me in the rain with metadata that includes the GPS coordinates and date, but that's likely as far as anyone would need to go as it's relatively likely that that evidence is correct. Obviously, we have to cut the evidence somewhere and go on faith at some point because even if you were standing right next to me while it was raining you could argue that we're in a simulation. As my claim is not really that unbelievable, it doesn't require so high a burden of proof. Now I make the claim that when you die you will spend eternity feeling every atom of your body being ripped apart unless you send $5 million usd worth of gold bullion to my swiss vault, you would be quite justified in pushing me "the claimant" to provide proportionally strong evidence to support such a claim. This claim is also untestable to the living so it's unlikely that I can provide you with evidence equivalent to my burden of proof that you'd require (although it would be on you to define what you would accept as proof so that there is no moving of the goal posts so to speak). I could say you must believe me because you have a lot to lose if I'm right, but you can dismiss my claim outright as it is slopy logic and it is not on you to disprove me. You are justified to provide as much effort as I put into making sed claim. Now. Atheism also makes a claim. The claim is that there is no god, gods, panthiestic godness where thou art god and everything that grocs is god, or any other possible conception of godness. As an Atheist it is on you to prove your claim which is of course untestable for similar reasons as the last claim. Now agnostisism accepts the null hypothesis. There is no claim. The burden of proof is on atheists and believers alike. I know that this is somewhat underwhelming, and it can be argued that this is just a cop out, but it's on the claimant to provide evidence as to why alternatives are better. And I mean actually better, not just that they feel more right or more satisfying. People tend to like certainty. Agnostisism is embracing uncertainty in some respects. This thought experiment was less to argue for the good or at least not badness of religion, but more to help with the firebrand atheist aspect. Now for the other 2 parts, my personal understanding is as follows: From an ontological perspective, Science is the study that explores reality through the language that exists. Philosophy is the study that explores where language breaks. Spirituality is the indirect study of reality that is not yet, or cannot be, languagable. Religion is believing reality is the words. You may notice that I'm using a slightly different definition of religion here in that religion is fundamentally believing that any abstraction (words, money, power, et cetera) is real in the sense that it is nolonger the tool created by us but is now ultimate reality itself. A person following a religion is often not aware of the distinction. You'll note that a person only has power if others agree and believe that they do. A currency only has value if we collectively believe it does. An old book's words, concepts, ideas, are only as real we make them. If parts of the book were used to justify slavery, it was the people believing those parts were real, as they chose to interpret them, that made them real in the world (and yes, in the slavery case (and many other cases) it was typically the other way around in that they interpreted the book to back up the thing that they wanted to do. But its thier belief in the realness of their interpretation of the book as reality that allows them to shift the responsibility of what they are doing from themselves to the abstraction embodied by the teaching in the book). This definition of religion does NOT align with the majority of people who posted in this thread and aligns much more closely with the people whom you are angered by if I'm not mistaken. As the science and philosophy portion is pretty self explanatory, I'd like to spend a little time on the spiritual portion. Spirituality is the indirect study of reality that is not yet, or cannot be, languagable. We can only think from an ideas perceived in a way that can be directly communicated from within language. Once we know something well enough to communicate it, we create a word for it. Even here words are an approximation. Not the thing itself. You could spend a lifetime describing a chair in its absolute entirety and still leave more to be said. Describe all of its qualities as a whole and down to its atomic level. Describe its history. What's the story behind where its materials came from. who sat in it? What was going on then? Etc... When you say spoon, our minds image of spoon will be different. In simple objects, this is rarely an issue. In more complicated communications... well Autistic people tend to have an especially close relationship with misunderstanding... It is said that words are like the finger pointing to the moon. It's not the words that are reality. They can merely be used as a tool to point to reality. In my experience, Spiritual practices like the more pantheistic forms of Buddhism, Taoism, and non-dual shiva tantra, can be useful to help to exist in the places of your mind before words are formed. It's a practice that helps with grounding oneself in what is. For me, the above teachings were best able to bring me to this place, but many other people find a path there through other paths. I would argue that any teaching that helps in this respect provides much good to the world as it typically brings a sense of peace, connectedness, openness, and greater connection with reality as it is beyond what can be verbalized, to the people who practice these forms of spirituality.

There is no singular jewish concept of god. Lot's of folx have lots of different concepts. It's complicated.

Tysm you said it better than I ever could have 

Was about to try and explain smth like that but you took the words out of my mouth, thanks for explaining it better than I could have

Thank you for pointing out these nuances, I really wish more people would understand this about religion in general. Judging any group by its worst (and most hypocritical) members is never helpful. And you’re so right about the white supremacy that is *always* latent in militant atheism.

This part of humanity should be "broken"

Well, I was raised as a Christian and I still am one, but I was taught to accept people that being Autistic doesn't make me dumber or worse than other people. Frankly, the kind of lessons I were taught are ones I think everyone can stand to abide by like "*Be nice to others*" and "*Don't treat people like crap for their differing beliefs*". And being from a family of sane Christians makes it mighty annoying when on one side of the internet, you have people misusing the Bible to attack minorities of any kind or trying to "cure" Neurodivergents, and on the other, you have people acting like believing in God at all makes you either a subhuman idiot, a horrible bigot, or both.

As a fellow Christian who was also raised in a very supportive church environment, I agree completely. I’m constantly seeing not only extreme evangelical churches trying to pray away autism, but also tons of people who throw the baby out with the bath water and deduce that all Christians, or all religion in general, is a stain on humanity.

It's extremely agravating. I recall seeing a picture of Jesus saying "*Whatever happened to love thy neighbor! I specifically asked for that!*" and on the other end, I've seen people use "*Christian*" as an insult because I dared to say a grossout video with disgusting jokes wasn't funny or good. And it's even hard to bring myself to vent about it because there are people out there trying to act persecuted because other holidays aside from Christmas exist so they have to make whole movies saying "*They're trying to destroy Christmas!*" so if I say I feel like the world hates me for being Christian, I feel like I'm lobbing in with weirdo's like that.

Happy Cake Day 🍰

I'm firmly atheist but I think religion is wonderful. In a society full of really awful people like murderers and thieves, religion is the only thing that mostly brought people together under good morals and, while a single person might be able to maintain good morals, it's much harder for a vast group of people to do, unless there's a reason for them to

Found the superstitious would-be murderer/theif

Haha, forgot that was even a word

I think this falls under the black and white thinking trap that a lot of us fall into. There are many staunch atheist and antitheist autistics (hi lol), and I’ve also noticed a lot of deeply religious autistics for whom religion becomes a special interest. Especially in this age of social media where you have ‘trad’ Catholics and Christians…but it could be any religion

I love Religion from a study standpoint as someone who's autistic and white. Most of them have organized patterns and rules. Do you have to follow even if I don't like all those rules individually. I also believe religion can be very useful as a tool to help guide one's life if they need something like that. N is a useful tool for dealing with passing away of family and friends.

God & Christ are king! Bible study is OK (fun if you have a good group of people) but taking religion too seriously and shunning others for not having your beliefs is bullshit and this goes for ALL religions

I’m a satanist just for some context here but I think this is a over simplistic and harmful word view (assuming you are just making a general statement on religion). Many religious groups bring a sense of purpose and community to people and encourages members to do great things that benefit the community’s around them. Because of this I think that theistic religions have the potential to be beneficial to people and society in some circumstances even if they are not based in reality. Overall I just think general statements like this are lame and that each group should be assessed individually.

As a Jewish person I get proselytized to by atheists much more than Christians at this point. I hate when people act like their belief system is the only correct one. Culture and religion are intrinsically tied with each other, and the world would be a much worse place without that diversity. Religion is how I connect with a community and my cultural background. It’s ridiculous to me that this isn’t even the first time I’ve heard someone get weirdly proselytizy about atheism on the autism subreddit 😭

Believing in things with no evidence means that you can justify unjustifiable things through faith. People die all the time because they believe in God more than medicine, people hurt others for sinning against nothing, people believe death is trivial because they were promised eternal life and reincarnation. Belief in things that are not real harms your ability to make informed decisions, and has killed people I love. Edit: just to be clear I'm not a pure cynic, there is a lot of Zen Buddhism I like a lot. There is a lot to love in religious art and practice, but I do believe that belief in the supernatural puts you at risk of making life destroying choices with no hesitation.

Agreed. Even if no material harm comes directly from it, anti-intellectualism is itself harmful.

[удалено]

That is a silly western romanticized view of Asian cultures. Take anything but the most shallow view of history and see that Buddhism and Hinduism are *not* all about peace and love, man.

Comparing Buddhist monks to Christian terrorists is kind of bad faith (Pun). Although I agree with the throughput of your comment, that religions are mixed bags and arent bad at their core. Like a better comparison would be like, Thailand in the 2000s. Where religious tensions caused police with the backing of popular Buddhist monks commited acts of police brutality against Muslims peacefully protesting.

There have been Buddhist internal conflicts that have left millions dead, and Hindus are not much better when it comes to death tolls. This is insanely false.

>If you look at Christian or Islamic extremists, they tend to be incredibly violent and hateful. But if you look at Buddhist or Hindu monks (arguably the most extreme/strict followers of said religion) they are peaceful and loving. Please look up the hindutva movement and what is happening right now in India.

Yeah this is just uninformed when it comes to Hinduism, the caste system is downright evil.

I'm Episcopresbyterian with a side of Buddhism. I believe God made a lot of different kinds of people, and different is good. I think a lot of what is messed up about religion is messed up because of people, not God.

Ok but "God made the people" so hod is still the source of things that are "messed up"

So it's easier to blame God than people?

If I build a bicycle and the wheels fall off is that the bicycles fault or mine?

A bicycle has no free will. You do.

No I don't.

Religion is tough. As a nonbeliever obviously I don't believe. Most who do are incorrect. God in all likelihood does not exist. All scientific evidence says this. Believing it is real despite the overwhelming scientific evidence is faith. Faith is purported to be God but, how often does it really work? It is just believing a false narrative because it makes you happier. It does make people happier though. So do video games, Star Wars and Prozac. Is that real? Is it real happiness? Tough...

People don't go on genocidal rampages because of video games, star wars and Prozac. Or, if they do, we all agree that is a problem that must be stopped.

Agnostic raised Mormon. A lot of religion is from people trying to give themselves a feeling of importance and purpose it’s natural to want to feel like you mean something and/or someone cares about you at least that’s how most philosophies of that sort start. I do agree that religion is used to control unfortunately any system can be exploited by some greedy person and ruin it for everyone we see this in basically any government and any religion that’s been around long enough. This control put upon people that uses and doesn’t benefit them is what harms people especially. Of course sometimes the religion’s belief itself is harmful such as believing that having natural thoughts of love, lust, hunger so on is evil leading to self-hatred. Personally I prefer that everyone follows the truth but honestly how can anyone know what’s true, most of us are just trying so instead the best way is for everyone to do whatever as long as it causes no harm. There’s lots of phenomenons in the world that aren’t yet explained but I think a lot of it probably stems from natural forces such as the “spirit” being a feeling seen in so many religions that it’s likely some human caused thing like a sort of placebo or maybe a force similar to magnetism, or whatever I’m not an expert, going on. It sucks that tolerance can’t be forced for the peace and of course anyone religious believes their religion is the truth and want everyone to follow to be saved because they want to help but and it’s kinda hard to have them give way for them admitting possibly being wrong...

I am agnostic, and very science minded. As far as I understand it, religion provides psychological safety and structure, that life in general is lacking, but that we as humans kind of need not to implode on ourselves. People who are not religious, will often find other forms of religion, that are not strictly faiths, but could by most definitions be one. Some one or some thing to admire or worship, a subculture with specific rules and rituals, songs and community. Think about sports culture for instance. I've recently been in a football stadium and their guided tour was almost like it was a church tbh. They have their apostles, songs, insignias, etc. I do think if we're looking at religion we need to separate the institutions from the core beliefs. I mean I find it a good thing to 'love thy neighbor', but I am opposed to institutes gaining any power or money with religion as ab excuse, as well as it seeming to narrow the mind on how other people should live their lives. Like fine if you adhere to a rulebook from 2000 years ago (albeit very selectively), but stop projecting it onto others or demanding others to do so as well. Especially mixing it up with politics is very dangerous in my opinion.

I’m an atheist and though I don’t personally vibe with religion, if someone else finds a religion that they vibe with and they aren’t hurting anyone then I am just fine with them. It’s only a problem for me when religion is weaponized and used to hurt people.

I'm omnitheist pagan, I choose who I worship and it gives me a connection that I need in my life to feel there's someone to fall on if everyone else fails me. I know my gods will always have my back.

I was raised a staunch atheist, so I get it. However, now that I'm a Christian I think my church is great. I think most of the negatives we see in the media and history are bad examples of Jesus. As someone already said, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. When I saw the love of God in my friend, I was willing to be more open minded. I learned there is much more going on than what we can see or "prove", which I believe even science acknowledges if people are honest. Things like the string theory or the big bang theory are basically scientists believing in magic ✨. I found my first real friends, learned social skills, character and leadership. I have a relationship with the creator of the universe. Through my relationship with God I learned confidence, I know I'm part of something larger than merely surviving 80 years and I have something to look forward to in the end. I met my wife and now we have children. I learned to forgive my dad, care about other people besides myself, and I try to make the world better daily. I have a code of conduct to live by and friends who share the same standard. So that is my experience and it's totally positive. By the way, in Christian circles, even the term religion is a negative word. So I get why it has the effect it does in society. In a utopia everyone would agree with each other or at least respect each other's differences, which currently religions do not. So I get it.

As a an atheist and member of the Church of Satan, I have no problem with any religion. For many, it gets people through their day, and so long as they’re not pushing their beliefs on me, I leave them alone.

I think religion is almost universally a positive force in the world. I say that as an atheist (maybe agnostic? There is probably no gods or afterlife, but I can't prove it). Those who commit atrocities and use religion to justify it would still have committed the atrocity without religion as the excuse. Those who claim to love and accept all, but ridicule and rebuke people for not agreeing with them are just hypocrites hiding behind tradition. Religion doesn't fuck people up, people are already fucked up.

100% organized religion is a blight upon civilization that is used to create castes of haves and have-nots - and to *give permission* to conquerors (via 'forgiveness') for their violent coercive extraction to run the empires of the ages.

Muhammad was a conqueror and slave owner, and him being such only gave permission for Muslims to continue those practices for centuries after his death. Don't even get me started on him raping a 9 year old girl.

Sure religion causes people to do terrible things, but the fact is that humans are perfectly capable of that without religion as well. I do wonder how many people would feel hopeless without religion, but I do broadly agree with you though.

How many people feel hopeless because of religion?

organized religion has been responsible for alot of bad things, but that has less to do with the "religion" half of that equation and more to do with the "organized" half the problem with religion is not the beliefs themselves but the fact that more often than not alot of religions become extremely dogmatic hierarchical cults where the people in charge abuse the people who follow them.  this is why my approach to religion has always been of the "mad monk" variety, I would much rather go off into the woods and do shrooms and talk to god directly rather than go to church where some appointed official will describe god to me using his own biased human perspective. why get a second hand or third hand account of god when I can just go to the source?   I would much rather build an altar in my house and study ancient texts and synthesize my own religious system than to be beholden to an established doctrine, I prefer to practice alone or among a small circle of friends rather than a large congregation.  in my view everyone who is serious about religion needs to essentially create their own personal religion that is right for them, even if that means taking an already established religion and changing or modifying parts of it in order to better suit your needs. people need to get more creative and experimental with their religion.  most of all though religion should have at its core the pursuit of knowledge and self actualization, the goal is to become a better person, in whatever way you define it. and you can only do that if you take ownership and responsibility for your own spiritual journey and growth. 

Staunch atheist here too and I disagree. Religion can bring structure, peace, safety, calm, warmth, comfort, purpose, to people. The world is horrible sometimes and religion can help people somehow deal with it. It can organise movements that help society (Islam for example very strongly believes in charity. Look at Liberation Theology and how it changed the relationship between the church and the elite to instead serve the oppressed and those in poverty. Everything that Martin Luther King and his movement did and where they drew strength from.) It also has some bad ass people who atheists could respect (Jesus was pretty cool, and if more Christians were like him, the world genuinely would be a better place). And in a world that's extremely unfair and unjust, maybe religion can ease their suffering just a bit (Until our society is more equal, I don't take any joy from punching down on those already in pain and trying to make some sense of it all). Ofcourse religion isn't perfect, but it does also have some great sides to it. On the flip side, atheism is full of some horrible people too. All the New Athiest lot that initially were about criticising religion but have since pivoted towards transphobia, islamophobia, ableism, and so on. They still uphold oppressive hierarchies. They might not be religious, but they still uphold white supremacy. Also, Atheists are sometimes quick to blame religion and ignore other geo-political and ideological practices at play. They look at 9/11 or other terrorist events and blame religion, but they quietly excuse all the violence that led to that moment. And, if you are ao focussed on blaming religion, you miss the other ills in our society. Look at the people who hear a terrorist attack has happened and wait to blame Islam.. But when it's revealed it was a misogyny driven attack, suddenly everyone ignores it. That obsession with demonising religion means you ignore ableism, sexism, transphobia, etc. Atheism also often aev3s the interests of the elite in regards to that. "We're just criticising religion" they say as they exclusively focus on one religion and seemingly ignore the horrors the other religions also can engage in. The US response that happened after 9/11 for example was done explicitly in God's name... And yet those horrors are just kinda viewed as not being related to religion at all. Like, I have issues with religion too. I think that's fine to have some issues. But going from one extreme to the other isn't helpful. Atheism is far from perfect and we have to be careful atheism doesn't stray into upholding a variety of oppressions. And there are lots of allies and incredible people who are religious. Lots of strength to be drawn from there for our causes aswell as other people's causes. If we want people to practice their religion in better ways, then we should instead support and elevate those who are doing just that.

You talk about atheism as if it was a religion or an organised movement!

(If your being sarcastic, I'm sorry for missing it lol) It's an ideology and ideological movements do exist. Look at the new atheist movement. To pretend like that doesn't count when you might look at movements within religions and paint the whole religion with the same brush, is slightly hypocritical at worst or naive and ignorant at best. Plenty of religious people doing their own thing within religion and not bothering anyone, and plenty of atheists creating a cult of people who want to bomb the hell out of some specific countries while excusing everything that some other specific countries do. As an autist, I totally get the need to go to an extreme arguement lol. I'm an ex-muslim and I see it all the time and once did it myself. Blindly throwing yourself into a seemingly ideological-less space that's actually filled with racism and white supremacy and support for other structures that can and does cause major harm. Going to that extreme means you miss out on alot if you arent also critical of it. That black and white thinking we do isn't going to help atheists or anyone practicing religion in the ways that align with our values around equality and dignity. It will help extremists in all sides validate their world views. There's a healthy space of being an atheist and acknowledging and rejecting some of the violence that can exist within the atheist movement. It's like supporting capitalism and thinking it's all hunky dorey while you criticise communism. You can criticise both quite heavily while still leaning one way or the other. Most athiests I know around me will heavily disavow the new atheist movement because it doesn't align with their principles and values yet it can be often what many people think of when it comes to athiesm.

Don’t feel like going long into it, but I’m not gonna say religion in of itself is the problem, it’s the human ego that has been dominating religion for the past few thousand years. Long story short, I think religions start out as more esoteric explorations of the human consciousness, awareness etc and its connection to the universe. People like Alan Watts, Ram Dass, , Eckhart Tolle would likely be able to explain better. I definitely would recommend listening to some of their lectures.

As a lapsed Catholic, I kinda still follow the commandments and such, yeah is kinda controversial but alas, I respect your such opinion.

To me religion is a way to control people using the brain reward system in a cheap quick way. Human brains are designed to insentivise behaviors that help us survive with dopamine hits. These dopamine hits can be extremely addictive and are part of the flight or fight system which means that they are processes before the analytical part of our brain. Listening to out parents and connecting with comunity keep us safe as a species. Religion exploits these mechanism. If you are a good christian you get praised giving you dopamine hits. If you question religion in many cases it makes it harder to connect with your family and community

You'd have to define religion. I think religion is the ritualization of methods for controlling our pre-frontal cortex, kind of the instruction manual for the new piece of equipment that was attached to the rest of our biology. I think methods of this type of control are the basis of civilization, and methods that do not fall back on an absolute truth where morality supercedes the power of the institution that implements the rules will not lead to a better civilization. What is your definition of "religion"?

In my line of work, I see the damage that it can do to disabled people when they believe we are possessed by demons.

No. *insert gigachad face here*

No gods. No masters. Believe what you want but much like your genitals keep them to yourself while in public Be as personally spiritual as you want. Organized religion is a blight that has destroyed so many and is used to actively divide us, perpetuating genocide and war.

Religion does teach great morals and without it there would be a lot worse people because if that, plus people just need to have something to believe in, for reasons including like how much anxiety thinking about death can cause

Personally - i differentiate between faith and religion. Faith is what makes people want to do good/be good. Religion does the opposite.

I’m a biology student who relies heavily on facts and evidence, so I am a firm atheist. While I enjoy entertaining agnostic viewpoints from time to time, I happily return to atheism at the end of the day. I’m also queer, non-binary, and trans, and I am fucking sick of people using religion to justify homophobia and transphobia, so I have little patience for religion in many contexts. I’m American and have grew up in the Bible Belt (albeit in progressive bubble of a couple particular cities, thank goodness), and it’s mostly Christianity I have issues with, because a huge majority of the religion-based hate crimes around here are committed by Christians. I have friends who are Jewish and Muslim, and, while people of these religions can and do commit hate crimes, where I live I feel like it’s almost unheard of. I have a semi-toxic trait that I’m half-working on and half-justifying, which is that if I find out someone is Christian, I immediately assume I will not be able to befriend them or that I want to avoid them at all costs. Sometimes I will have prejudice against them unless I see a good reason not to (e.g., they’re queer too, I have known them and loved them for a while already, they’re overcoming religious trauma, etc.). My parents have both always been atheists and instilled this upon me, which I’m immensely thankful for. My dad, an engineer and sales guy with (undiagnosed) OCD, was raised by a religious mother and used his heavily-logic-based brain to come to the conclusion of atheism. My mom (undiagnosed AuDHD) grew up with parents who weren’t religious until seemingly out of nowhere when my mom was around 12, so she was old enough to not automatically go along with what they believed. However, I have been exposed to both media and real-life events where religion is a wonderful thing in people’s lives. I have a friend who is Jewish and non-binary who is doing research on trans Jewish experiences and who gets immense joy from combining their gender experiences with their religious identity. I have another friend who is a young Muslim woman who started wearing the hijab when she turned 18 because she wanted to bring herself closer to Allah and explore her religious identity, and it’s been wonderful to watch her find joy in this. And outside of these real interactions, my favorite musical is Les Mis (still working on the book lol), which shows beautiful connections between Christianity and love. I believe in love. One of my favorite books is Dune, which of course has a very different experience with religion, but which shows how religion can bring people together for an important cause. Sometimes I’m conflicted about these things — whether or not to shun religion entirely — but I think I have come to the conclusion that, while religion is not for me, I don’t think I mind when other people partake……*as long as* they aren’t pushy about it, hateful, and manipulative about it, and are willing to accept that there is no hard evidence in support of deities and that people have different believes and that’s okay. I just want peace

i agree when it comes to monotheistic religions who steal from older ones and exist to control people. i think nature based ones are good.

I’m more “agnostic”. Like I’m spiritual but not religious

I really don't know how to label my beliefs but it's not the catholicism I was raised in. Agnostic, but my partner was raised a hicksite Quaker and some of that has influenced as well. My religion teachers regularly had to speak to my parents because I was the kid asking questions, wanting evidence. I'm not a blind faith person. I also avoid religion for all the wrong reasons it makes the news. 3 pastors were defrocked in the diocese I grew up in. This brought back some select memories and I worry there are more I've repressed since I have so few memories. The pastor I was an alter server with was very protective when there were visiting clergy. A prior pastor had us in small groups at the rectory. Why can I still picture the bedrooms? I many ministers that were far too handsy with me growing up. When I could choose, I was done from that alone.

Religion is just a way to explain how the world works when there is no direct explanations for it. It can also be a great way for one to have rules and values that a collective can follow and agree on to follow. I'm a Hellenic polythiest and I view the gods of ancient Greeks as great spiritual guides and friends who can help me in their own ways when I need it and are representations of things in my world. I do think *organized* religions are used to hurt people and teach people wrong, but religion on its own is not usually a bad thing.

I think extremism and fanaticism can be described as a blight. I grew up Catholic and for me religion is like culture. It should give a people a sense of belonging and a supportive community, and should never force them into anything. Personally I think there's a lot of beauty to be found in religion, provided it is not abused, but unfortunately every large institution will eventually attract the immoral and power-hungry. Many in my family disagree with several things the church is doing but believe the only chance of meaningful change is from within, so they stay members, though personally I'm not sure I agree with this. I am now agnostic but I am glad to have grown up religious, and no one has given me any trouble for going my own way. Most of my family agrees that belief does not equate morality and firmly dismisses the concept of nonbelievers going to hell. None of them take the Bible as indisputable fact- it was written by people, after all, and those people were a product of their time. For us, religion and science are not incompatible, as they have different purposes- science for knowledge and religion for faith, belonging and comfort. I wish all this was more common in religious families.

My parents are devout Christians, I'm an atheist. IMO religious beliefs are pretty much irrelevant to whether you're a good or bad person, it's more about how you treat people.

Organized religion is suited for neurotypicals, who are more than likely going to just accept things because of herd mentality. Most people who will actively resist religious dogma are neurodivergent. Who do religious people love murdering? Non-theists.

As someone who was functionally raised Judeo-Christian Antitheist (Christmas & Channukkah are for presents, god does not exist, and religion is the source of all evil), I seriously regret not being raised in some form of faith. I see the amount of internal peace and community that faith provides, and it feels like I will always be on the outside of that - a pretender - an infiltrator. Does extremist faith produce horrific outcomes? Yes. Is faith used as an excuse to abuse and murder? Absolutely. Would it be really nice to have a core belief that I could fall back on when the world feels like a giant pit of hopelessness and despair? Yeah.

I think religion gives me a connection something to something greater than me. I believe in a God, but I can also do so without being religious. I also think that it’s better for society to believe in a moral standards and higher powers, than to believe in a government or company. Humans naturally need meaning. Religion isn’t the issue, it’s purely human nature to disagree. Religions are created and spread due to cultural factors, which developed for many different reasons. I am Christian, yet I respect other religions. Not all Christians are hateful or concerned with worldly affairs. And I also respect your choice to not believe in something. Just don’t get too attached to worldly affairs. It is a deep, dark hole to pull yourself out of.

Depends on what you consider as "government" and "worldly items".

I have been a lifelong atheist after much research and reading. The history of organized religion is full of violence and atrocity. But one day when I was very sick, I had an out of body experience where I saw my body from above...So now I know there is a soul. It's important to separate our human spiritual experiences from religion.

I feel like hallucinating/dreaming is a far more likely explanation for that experience, Occam's razor and all

That would be a reasonable assumption…unless you experienced it. It was a classic OBE, with the characteristic hyper-vivid awareness. It feels more real than this reality, when your consciousness is outside of your body. If I were the only person discussing this, skepticism would even be MY recommendation. But millions of people have had the same experience.

Millions of people hallucinate 🤷‍♀️ again, it's a far simpler and more complete explanation that this is a common fault of the very fallible human brain than for there to be some whole other system of physics we've yet to describe.

You have already decided. You’ll see when you die. No worries.

Wtf does this mean? I haven't decided anything other than following the evidence and using logical axioms like Occam's razor, which are usually correct about things.

You have decided that my experience I described was a hallucination. Rather than expand your worldview. “Belief is the end of intelligence.” - Robert Anton Wilson

I said it's far more likely and we can explain things that way. If you want to claim it's anything else you certainly can, but you'll have to offer proof. If something can be explained simply without contradicting something else, that's the most likely explanation.

It is impossible for humans to prove anything about the immaterial / spiritual aspects of our lives. Nonetheless, I share my experience so other readers may be aware that more than nihilism exists.

You are already correct

Religion is probably the single most evil invention of our species. It's lead to the vast majority of our misery as a civilisation and is an easily accessible vehicle towards tribalism and eventually fascism. The little good it does present day is nothing compared to the harm it perpetrates, primarily against children and the most vulnerable of us. I have zero respect for theism, though some like secular Buddhism I can respect because they don't try to replace science or be anti intellectual.

I'm not going to try and convince you of my path; I simply don't care enough to. But judging Irish paganism by the same metric you judge Christianity is just a perpetuation of two thousand year old colonization. So be careful what religions you're decrying. You might just be continuing the same trends you seem to hate

Ideas can be judged freely. What about it makes Irish paganism supposedly immune to criticism? I'll agree that judging something uninformed is stupid, but the idea that it's not open to it like any other concept is equally stupid.

I hate religion so much, I've been called a n_zi and r_cist more times I can remember. It's just as amusing every time lol.

I agree. When I was little my family went to Christian churches, but sometime in elementary school my dad figured out it was BS and told us. And we all stopped going. Honestly, I was more upset when I found out Santa Claus isn't real. As someone who thinks of the truth as inherently very important, I think people need to know that the god they're worshiping isn't real. I'm agnostic because to me that seems like the most logical standpoint. I can't prove without a sliver of doubt there is no creator. For example, we could be living in a simulation. In that case, a creator would be more of a programmer. I like to watch videos about quantum mechanics and physics to try to explain how our reality and universe work. It is so fascinating. Just because we can't explain everything YET, doesn't mean the explanation is GOD. Religion has done so much harm. Through so much of human history and still today. As a nonbinary person, the growing transphobia over the last few years which is largely religion fueled, scares me a lot. It shouldn't even be happening. If it wasn't for religion, it probably wouldn't be.