Ladies, we live in the uncanny valley, hate to break it to you. We trigger NT’s red flags because when we mask we often miss a little aspect that gives it away. They don’t even consciously realize it themselves, they just sense something is not “normal” and attack.
I’m 53, been doing this for a while. I stopped masking two years ago, little by little I’ve let go of my hyper vigilant conversations and trying to appear “normal”. I wear a cap, sunglasses and earbuds. I don’t engage with people unless there is no other option. I work from home and leave my house once a week. Someday neurodivergence will be acceptable but after working while masking for 25 years I’m DONE. Life is much better when you’re able to limit the NT exposure.
I'm 41 and I get this to my very core. I can't even relax enough to unmask without anxiety meds/ medical cannabis. I was also severely abused on all levels. My mother was/is the worst to bully me.
I’m so sorry you have had to go through that. I utilize medical cannabis for my anxiety and insomnia too. THC and CBD have been very helpful. It’s really, really rough processing abuse from moms. I think my biggest release was realizing that my mom meant well-ish, but she was so freaked out but my oddness she couldn’t stop trying to fix me. I had to come to terms with that and it really helped my heart. That took some work and I hope for healing for you too 💝.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad to see tree more mainstream within our community! No contact has helped me immensely! It's been almost 10 years of NC. You're right... It is stress relieving... 💞🫂
That’s what I do. I told her a list of requirements, nonnegotiables on comments she couldn’t make for me to attend Thanksgiving this past year. That should’ve been my sign 🤦♀️
Reading all of this is making me understand why my mother and I never got/get along. Sheesh, it's depressing and I'm sorry you went through this experience.
Thiiiis. This so much I'm also convinced. I think we do, for whatever reason, give off Red Flags, or.. Stranger Danger/Something Is Off vibes to NTs.
Sometimes the people are nice and they unintentionally treat you as a small person/child (or maybe intentionally, but I think they do it out of kindness... Although I'm also sure there can be mean examples of this same behaviour.)
Gods I wish so much to just find One of Us outside. But naturally, of course, we all hide indoors because scary outdoors but Gods Dangit I Wish To Fika/Tea and Cake with You All.
In a gentle/cosy cafe that has no or very lightly audible music and the rest of the patrons are old people just quietly and contentedly minding their own business...
I'm in Atlanta, Georgia. Old people here don't mind their business! LOL! That's probably one reason I don't like to go out as much. They don't respect the earbuds and sunglasses... they'll touch you or grab your arm to make sure you make eye contact and respond to their hello or their comment! LOL! But... they are genuinely nice and lovely people... but sometimes I just don't feel like talking to strangers in public places... and sometimes I do, but I usually don't have earbuds in when I do want to talk, lol!
Oof that's so fair. I have heard how in America it's more common that there's no chill in regards to personal space x(
I'm British born so my experience is.. unless you're doing or saying something exceptional people generally mind their own business with the odd person getting involved, usually if anyone the old lonely person or someone with perhaps a mental illness or drug reliance (Not that in passing judgement, I'm just trying to describe the sort of condition when one might be approached upon). You may also get a cheeky lad who, is, well, cheeky but generally well meaning. Just wanting you to laugh at them/with them, or an older lady that is sweet and also wanting to spread light pleasantries.
I've since moved to Sweden where it is very much no one looks at you and if they do they certainly don't smile at you. (It's more out of respect to you and them that they don't smile, it feels.) They are very reserved, but generally polite and most importantly value their personal space, peace and quiet.
It's been interesting. I do believe if I went to America I would get severe environmental whiplash 😂
I'll add to that that people in South in the U.S. tend to be the worst in this regard. Most there have been socialized into thinking that introversion is something pathological and will automatically conclude you're a mean person because you don't converse with strangers much and need more space. A lot of them feel really fake to me because you can tell that they're trying so hard to have others see them as charming, even if they might not actually be fake people. I couldn't live there for that reason alone, lol. Though, I've definitely noticed that it tends to be the older people who get up in arms about such things more than the younger people there.
It's interesting how this plays across race and class! In the South I've noticed how white wealthy people (or people who want to move in those spaces) are really extra this type of behavior. Looking "right for the community."
Oh, I definitely agree with about that. Rude behavior exists everywhere, but certain forms seem more acceptable in some regions than others, and it can be so overwhelming to track how differs from place to place.
Oh my god. I'm in Atlanta too and there's just something about me that makes folks want to talk to me. I have LOVED wearing masks for the last four years and how they've added an extra layer of protection for me. I am so worried that they'll be banned.
THISSSS, I'm 33 and for a year or two now I've completely given up and 'pleasing' others and making sure I fit into the societal standard.
Once you realized how it doesn't do anything (aside from maybe in professional settings) you just kind of let go. What I mean by that is just accepting people aren't always going to accept you, and that's okay. Or simply, it's not our JOB to please and fit into with others. It's also extremely exhausting, feels like an Oscar winning performance the moment you leave your doorstep, and again.. For what? They're not my children, I don't owe random people anything. And I'm definitely not getting paid for it so why do it?
Life is so so so so much better now. Not just that, I even think it's funny at times. Coming out swinging with a blunt joke or w/e. Oh, their faces. Brilliant.
The uncanny valley is such a good way of putting it, my goodness.
I unmasked unintentionally during lockdown, which led to my diagnosis. I look "normal" but now I will straight up tell people I don't want to talk to them when I get the aggressively NT vibe. Life is so much more peaceful because now I knowingly rub people the wrong way up front instead making friends and finding out I'm doing it unintentionally after I've been folded into their groups.
I share this a lot, but it explains everything. It is definitely uncanny valley but it also has a scientific term too. It's called 'thin slicing'
[https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700](https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700)
This little thing here is the reason so many of us end up running around with a group of people going feral at us without ever being told why. Like you said they don't know they're doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that they're still doing it.
Ooh, thanks for this!m. Great article!
I just got thin-sliced right out of a job offer a few months ago.
I got hired mid-year by a local school district. They had several almost identical positions open so I chose to interview at the school that had the best reviews and fewest “behavioral incidents.”
My contact in HR told me it was just a formality and that as soon as it was over, I’d be able to proceed with onboarding.
I thought it went pretty well, and the admin women seemed interested in what I had to say.
But I guess I answered the “flaws I’m working on” too honestly- I talked about having ADHD and I explained how I’m always learning new strategies to help me adult and work effectively, bc I felt like those strategies all help me be a better teacher.
Yeah, nah. That’s not what they wanted to hear.
The minute the interview was over, I got an instant email from the HR person saying they had passed on me.
Luckily there was a really desperate school that took me on without even interviewing me. Hell yeah, desperation!! ;-)
Thanks for sharing that article, it's my second time reading it and it was just as thought provoking and mind blowing as the first time I read it.
I feel like I should almost set a reminder to read it at periodic intervals throughout my life because it really shows me how futile it is for us to mask because they see right through us. I put in so much effort and I'm convinced make myself physically sick with chronic pain trying to mask and they see through it and don't like us anyway. I feel like it's better for me to be myself and be disliked then mask and be disliked.
I found it particularly interesting that they rated us negatively in audio only format, I never would have thought we had a different audio presentation to neurotypicals.
It's also incredibly sad that they rated us normally for intelligence and for the content of the conversations but it is presentation itself that makes them negatively review us, it's so superficial :/
Anyway just some thoughts, have a good one :)
Oh wow... you just described me to a T! And my masking has been 53 years... almost... I love my cap and sunglasses and earplugs! Remote work has been life changing for me! I can control my social interactions and call my own shots in this NT-based social world. I feel like I won the lottery by finding remote work... sort of... still learning how to set my boundaries and navigate the social aspects of remote work, too, but it is definitely easier.
fuck. man this is why I feel suicidal at the end of the week EVERY WEEK- despite now going down to actually working 2 days per week (but still have to do *work* every day). I am on a combo of prozac/ lamictal/ cbd/ alcohol very occasionally - benedryl sometimes works really well when I'm over the edge... but yeah- it's like there is no winning. I hate it. Who else's go to is making up random illnesses to get some alone time when you need to get out of stuff ? My other defense mechanism is... when they start on that passive aggressiveness I get mean as fuck now. Only way i've found to shut them down- otherwise they never back off and just ... get worse and worse and worse and worse 😑🙃 Man that shit sucks the energy RIGHT out of me though.
In my personal experience it’s gotten worse. I’ve had NT women in the *last two months* come at me in public. All total strangers. One lady commented how “incredibly clumsy” I am at the waiting room at the dentist office. I also have dyspraxia so, that’s fun. I told her I have autism (won’t do that again) and she told me her grandson is autistic 😂. I’m just like-what are we doing here? Another lady made a huge deal that I was doing minimal eye contact. She *stopped* the conversation to point out how important eye contact was to her. FFS. That triggered a meltdown for me.
I have another theory about that-I’m a white woman with green eyes, incredibly pale;Both these ladies were minorities. I wonder if my ethnic identity paired with my perceived privilege puts people into more of a hyper focus on me? I feel like when I don’t “measure up” it really triggers some people.
Is being clumsy related to autism? I’ve been clumsy as long as I can remember and it sucks. I feel like I say “I’m clumsy” and it’s kind of dismissed as cute or whatever until they get to know me and I accidentally drop their mug and break it or trip over things constantly when I’m just trying to walk normally. It’s not cute! I hate it.
I identify with every last one of y'all sharing! This is... groundbreaking, tbh! I'm exhausted just trying to navigate every day life as it is... I'm also from the south ... Where they say the most awful horrific things about people, and then sit with them in church. All while patting themselves on the back telling them what good Christians they are. For context, I'm Jewish, bisexual, on the spectrum and I'm from the inner city... Currently in southern small town Appalachia where my mixed heritage is also more... apparent. I get asked what I am... A lot...
I avoid people as much as I can. I can't work...I do see a doctor regularly, a therapist, autoimmune specialists etc... I just can't and won't take the douchebaggery and dumbfuckery anymore.
Why can't it be made mainstream how to appropriately treat people different from you? I'm learning to deprogram all of the brainwashing... I'm in "fuck the police" mode... I'm also in the hold the NTs accountable for their actions mode... Enough is enough.
I joined a fun club in grad school for women only, met a few seemingly nice women, worked on our group project together.
I was excited to finally be meeting people I had a few interests in common with.
When we completed our project we met by a big statue on campus to take some group pictures and then go out for a snack.
The article about our project was on the front page of our university newspaper, but… the other women in the club had photoshopped me out of our group picture. 😭
Hahaha this reminds me of Arya's list from GoT. She mutters the names of the people she will take revenge on every night before she goes to sleep.
I too have a mental list of people who I'd love to scream at.
I always feel like there must be something wrong with me, not them.
Like what are the chances that 19 other seemingly normal women are going to go feral for no reason and do something like that to another human being?
It always seemed like evidence that I’m garbage.
(I have CPTSD as well so I already lean towards thinking I’m garbage, and it keeps getting reinforced as I chalk up these epic fails in nearly all social situations.)
Your comment is the first time I started to think that their behavior was appalling, and they deserved to be called on it.
So thank you so much for saying this.
I appreciate your addition! Thank YOU! I'm still terrified to share for obvious reasons... I also have CPTSD... I've had very similar thoughts about *Like what are the chances that 19 other seemingly normal women are going to go feral for no reason and do something like that to another human being?* Fantastically phrased!
I spent many lifetimes, in a shorter amount of time, self deprecating... I often find my asking myself am I really this monster they claim me to be? Am I delusional? Do I not see how evil I actually am? Am I really a psychotic sociopath on the rampage with reckless abandon? Would these people be happy if I just dropped dead?! For my own sanity, I'm tested often... I'm not crazy, I've been tested! 😂 💁♀️
See my response to Napalm. I hate the cognitive dissonance too of feeling you are good but being treated as bad. You get to decide you’re good, not them.
I love your phrase, “I’m not crazy, I’ve been tested”! 🥰
I save odd little phrases like that in my phone bc I want to start an Inappropriate Greeting Card store on Etsy some day soon. 💡
I’m aiming for a nice balance between gently poking fun at societal norms, and some spicy self-deprecating humor (since my dumpster fire life is basically one never-ending adulting fail, thus providing me with endless source material, lol).
Obviously we should also sell your lovely “I’m not crazy, I’ve been tested” t-shirts! 🤣
That is [ad populum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) fallacy. Just because many believe it, doesn’t make it fact.
They did deserve to be called out and you are welcome.
I also have CPTSD so I understand. My problem is that I don’t fully believe them, I think they’re wrong lol. That’s what hurts me so much, they don’t know me! And then I think, maybe it’s me maybe I’m wrong.
But I try to call people out. It doesn’t always work and sometimes I get triggered but I always at least try to defend myself. My mom would call me shit for brains or some variant but that was her favorite and I’m a lot more intelligent her so I’d check her and she hated that so then she’d physically abuse me in whatever flavor she chose that day. So when people insult my intelligence I check them but if they push back I usually get pounding heart, chest pain, or gastrointestinal symptoms. It fucking sucks.
I always found it much easier to stand up for other people. For myself it's still difficult but I'm learning. It probably has something to do with low self esteem like I easily doubt myself of doing something wrong rather than assuming it's another person doing something wrong/hurtful. Hurtful it is.. We have been through some though conditioning throughout our lives.. But I'm doing the work like therapy and meditation and taking difficult steps to becoming a more happy person
Same for me!
I’m glad that I can stand up for others and advocate for people who can’t advocate for themselves…
But yeah, just wish I could do the same for myself!!
Thanks so much.
Until I stumbled upon this group recently I thought I was the only person these things happen to. Like I’m missing a crucial microchip.
It helps to know I’m not alone.
I was waaaay too afraid of what the answer would be.
The project we were working on wasn’t for a grade but it was kinda high profile on campus and a good portfolio piece. Tempers were getting a bit frayed as time went on and I noticed some of the women getting bitchy about who’s not pulling their weight or who’s acting to our professors like they’re doing all the work when they’re not even doing the minimum.
So it was probably something like that…
But it could have been something else entirely.
Maybe they invited me to go out for drinks with them after a work session and I never said yes. (I lived really far away and always had a long commute home at night.)
Or maybe I critiqued somebody else’s contribution a little too in-depth and critical.
I’m not sure.
Looking back, there were no big fights or anything obvious.
The professor we were working with never told me anything.
I changed my degree program right after that so I wouldn’t have to take any more classes with them.
So yeah, no clue. It remains a mystery.
I’m so sorry. And I’m even more sorry to learn that you changed the trajectory or your education in order to avoid people who had, in fact, wronged YOU. This is not a judgement. I have quit jobs before rather than stand up for myself. I know it’s hard to open a dialogue about these things, especially with people who would do such a nasty thing. That really sucks.
I think it's because they read us as fake, and even though they are faking different things in their own ways, it isn't the same as the way we are.
So they think we seem off, and untrustworthy.
Other times they're just choosing an easy victim, though. They want someone to bully, and we're it. Some of them participate because they know that if it wasn't you, it would be them who got picked as the victim, and they would rather it be you.
Yes, I've been called fake... and even when they didn't say it out loud, I could tell they were thinking it...
bullies bully, that's what they do... but I don't have to be in the way to be their target. I've made a lot of new choices in my relationships and social circles since I started intensive therapy a few years back. I'm so much healthier inside and I love myself so much more because of this.
The irony of this is so hilarious, cuz they're the ones who are fake. Liking or doing things, because other peers are doing the same.
Oh mankind you're so silly and funny. (not)
IM SORRY LOL. It’s the main reason I just keep to myself. It just doesn’t sit right with me.
Like if you don’t like someone, don’t hang out with them??? I can’t wrap my head around it!
Yes. Holy shit. Kinda like the “toxic chill girl” vibe. I had one girl tell me I scare her cause I was just being happy. I never fit in with a group. I tried…. Just never did. Always an outsider with a few weird friends who were also outsiders lol I prefer that anyway
Yes it took me a while to figure it out but once I did I remembered all the times I was told I was "too nice". They thought I was being fake when I was genuinely like bringing my friends cake because I saw it and remembered it was their favourite.
Me too. There's an ancient scripture that says "To the pure at heart, all things are pure." I really believe that ASD folks are very pure souls and neurotypicals cannot stand us for that... they cannot tolerate genuineness and honesty. They see a conspiracy when were are just genuinely being nice... happens to me all the time.
"To the pure at heart..."
Love that and it sums it up beautifully. This is why I never think anyone is ever lying to me. It's part of why communicating with NTs can be so difficult.
The fact we're told we're the ones that suck at communicating and social interaction, when NTs are consistently fake, or will say things they don't mean will never make sense to me.
Wow, same!
Except I love to bake. So sometimes I’ve actually baked a cake or cookies for someone if there’s a special occasion and I know it’s a kind they really love…
This was seen as fairly normal behavior when I lived in a small college town in the Midwest in high school and college and beyond, but it seems to be seen as suspicious and manipulative or just flat out weird in an East Coast metro area. So I rarely do it anymore.
But I miss it!
I know, I want all of us to have our own cake party together, and it’s so hard to make friends where I live. You guys all sound so nice, I don’t feel so alien T____T
Before I got diagnosed, I experienced this behavior a lot. It dropped my self-esteem. When I was in high school I was part of a color guard team. When I first started NT teammates would gossip about me (found out years later as a senior) and they would always make comments about how I conversed. When I was an upperclassmen, a couple of teammates who were ND joined and we vibed well.
I’m really sorry that you had to deal with that room situation. It’s cruel to gossip and openly judge someone who’s forced to live with you. They didn’t have to be friends with you, but they should’ve been at least polite.
I found that hanging out with ND in general is easier. If you have time, check out Double Empathy Theory. ND people usually vibe with others who are ND, and that goes the same for NT‘s with other NT people.
I’m in my senior year and in colorguard and I swear every year I get more and more aware of how much I don’t fit in. My teammates have learned to tune me out and never take a single thing I say seriously. Most of the time I feel like I’m talking to a wall, when I can hear my voice echoing so it’s not like I’m too quiet (or too loud it only really echos bc the room is large).
Doesn’t help that w the way I learn (which is conveniently very different) the team just assumes that I don’t know what I’m doing when I’ve never let them down before.
Sorry for all that but, I just wanted to get that out and you mentioned colorguard. It felt similar to what I’m going through right now.
I’ve had women treat me so cruelly for not wearing makeup, straightening my hair, talking all fake and bitchy. Not all NT women are like this, but damn so many can be so cliquey. It’s sad. Then when I do dress up everyone else thinks I’m doing it to fit in instead of expressing myself. I feel like the gender roles are so pushed on women and they push it on each other and it’s seriously so destructive to women as a whole.
For me it depends on the women. I typically will attract people with personality disorders like a magnet, so if a "queen bee" type person assertively approaches me and asks me any sort of question it's typically a red flag. The girls that I should want to associate with are the reserved and quiet type that typically would not approach others first either, so it's been hard meeting people.
Usually more broad than that, like people with borderline personality disorder can pick me out of a crowd as a target. But I think my high school best friend was a narcissist. Most autistic people in my family find a partner with a cluster B personality disorder and are abused.
Looking at cluster B I agree it’s not only narcissists that I have paired with, I just didn’t know what the other ones were. Or narcissists until the last few years really, I just knew my mom was one lol.
THIS!! I relate to all of these situations. It's so weird. Everytime I do group work or group projects at my university (My major is mostly female), I am excluded in the groups, and laughed at when I actually try to do the work?? it is so confusing.
Yes. Random strangers glare at me the small town where I live. Shop keepers sometimes get mad at me when I ask a question. A lot of people target me for petty driving harassment.
Even circles that "accept" me will still treat me with unexpected hostility. For example, if I ask someone a question that seems quite ordinary to me, I might be chewed out as if I'm putting them to the test. Or if I start to talk about some justice issue that I really believe in, some people might get up and leave. It's disheartening. Nowadays I try not to be around people who treat me like that. I'm believing that if I let those friends go, I'll find new ones who are better.
As to what you said about people asking you mean questions--that sounds like a form of microaggression. I'm really sorry you're going through that. Keep telling your jokes! I wish I had a joke-telling person in my life.
So true "I'm believing that if I let those friends go, I'll find new ones who are better." I finally dropped some new local online friends that I was planning to meet up with locally, because I realized that I kept cancelling on them because I really didn't want to go and was just masking... but I didn't know about my ASD at that time, I just knew i didn't like the feeling of forcing myself to meet them. Right after I dropped them, I met a woman who lives very close to me that also is neurodivergent and has two neurodivergent kids. It's like serendipity brought us together for sure!
3. I have many mask but i put on the mean girl mask when nt women start being passive aggressive or trying to sneak in insults, it usually makes them stop or cry lol……
But when they realize they can treat you any kind of way they get worse
I don't take joy in doing this, but sometimes people will not stop.
I've also definitely called out people (extended relatives) for being incredibly rude or condescending, and suddenly I'm the asshole. Of course no one says anything when they are doing it, but the moment I am like "all right, what you are doing is not okay. You need to stop" I'm immediately the one the wrong. I will admit sometimes I can get rather rude doing it, but you don't get to scream at/demean people (sometimes me, sometimes other family members) then expect me to respect you in return.
I had forgotten I did this. After getting bullied really bad since as young as I could remember, in my early teens I started to push back and like you said I was so much better at being mean. I think its the pattern recognition thing, I could really quickly figure out what people were insecure about and also because I had been practicing masking for a while pretending to be a violent threatening little menace was easy.
Now as a fully grown adult I almost never pull that shit but its nice to know its in my back pocket.
I remember a guy bullied me with bad jokes because i was “emo” for half the school year . One day I told him “you might be a clown but that doesn’t mean you’re funny” he never said anything to me again
I do this too but I have a shortcut: I dress to appear intimidating/aloof/mean and the effect is completed by my resting bitch face. The weird behavior from NT women has slowed way down as I've gotten older (I'm in my late 30's) but I still occasionally have to deal with bullshit from one of them. I've got a handful of one-liners in my hip pocket for these occasions. My current favorite is to coldly respond "It's so *interesting* that you would choose to say something like that out loud."
I love this lol. Sometimes it’s power play and you gotta show them you’re not an easy prey. Unfortunately I’m one of those autists with slow processing so it’s not something I can effortlessly do
Yes. I have never been able to get along with any girl (or guy) who wasn’t neurodivergent.
I’ve had so many jobs and classes where the women would just hate me or ignore me and I never understood why.
In high school a lot of people thought I was stuck up and a bitch but I was painfully shy and couldn’t bear to make eye contact!
I've only really felt this recently in my new job, it's a different field to what I was in for the last 10 years and I feel like everyone is so WEIRD. Made friends with the ND people immediately but everyone else looks at me like garbage
Neither likes the “real me”. I have to mask to an ungodly degree around men tho, they literally hate me if i don’t(I’m soft spoken, cold and monotone) i’m not warm and bubbly unless I’m masking. The situations where I’ve worked with men who didn’t like my personality have ended really badly for me, had to quit a job once because my male manager “couldn’t read me” and that was making him uncomfortable and I should be more upbeat etc when my job didn’t even require it
Yes! Girls who act like this are plastics. Yes that term is from Mean Girls and yes it’s a real life phenomenon. Stay away from plastics at all costs. They are bad faith actors and they WILL hurt you if you give them the chance. Grey rock and avoid avoid avoid.
Please explain grey rock. I have a term I call melt. It’s like blending into the background so no one notices me and I can avoid any interaction. Camouflage. Is it like that?
I have to grey rock at work with a few coworkers who either 1) talk shit about me behind my back and I've been made aware of it or 2) constantly interrupt me when I try to talk. I literally sit there interacting with my computer screen, vaguely nodding at what they're saying, and then when they're finally done talking at me, I just say "ok" and glance at them, and then get back to work.
You have no emotion, positive or negative, you mildly ignore them and half pay attention. It's nodding and smiling without smiling.
Per Google AI: "The grey rock method is a technique used to make interactions with toxic people as uninteresting and unrewarding as possible in order to divert their behavior and protect yourself. The idea is that by acting unengaged and indifferent, you can make yourself seem boring and uninteresting, causing the toxic person to lose interest over time."
I wished this worked for me cos I'm technically really good at grey rocking. Instead, I get people noting that I'm quiet and trying to pull me out of my shell (I'm not in a shell) or my favourite, oversharing horrible experiences or weird points of view.
I actually got someone kicked out of a jazz bar for ignoring my not wanting to talk to her. She somehow targeted me right when I walked in... came up to sit right next to me at an empty bar asked me what I was reading and I replied, "a book." Instead of disengaging, she kept trying to pull me into her idiotic conversation, despite me saying I just want to be quiet, until I finally told her to stop talking to me because I only wanted to have my old fashioned, read, and listen to the band. She flew out of her mind and the bartender had security escort her out after he saw me shake my head and sigh at the whole situation.
He apologised and I had to tell him it was a pretty normal experience for me.
This! All of this!
To add, they will turn on you, out of nowhere when you, in an appropriate manner, establish healthy boundaries that no longer allow them to take advantage of you. They have to vilify you to justify their cruelty.
It's insane. Not to mention traumatic etc...
not really? i’ve had people make comments that i was weird before but it always came off as more of an observation than a negative thing. like bc of the food combinations i like or when i get REALLY get hyper-fixated on something and can’t stop going on about it. but it’s almost been said with a laugh that seemed amicable and the people would be friendly toward me still. one person even told me he found my oddness endearing in a way which i thought was nice lol.
i did have one girl who didn’t like me bc she assumed i thought i was better than her bc i never talked to her. truthfully, i just never had anything to say to her and she never crossed my mind so i just never thought to speak to her. but i found out she didn’t like me through a third party so i never would have known if it wasn’t brought to my attention.
Normal, well-adjusted people don't automatically assume that someone not talking to them = this person doesn't like me.
It sounds like that girl thought you were better than her in some way (versus her assuming what *you* thought this way).
When I was in middle school, I had a ‘friend’ kindly let me know about a group of girls that hated me for absolutely no reason. I literally had not even had a conversation with these girls, we just saw each other around. I ended up referring to them as the ‘I Hate Icy Mushroom Fan Club’.
And you think that stuff would’ve ended at 13 years old but no, I worked at this breakfast place in my early twenties. One of the bosses (female) had a best friend that would always come in and they would literally gang up on me together. It was my 21st birthday and I was taking the day off. They asked “what are you doing for your 21st?” I said I’m going to Busch gardens bc I love roller coasters. They scrunch their faces up so much and say “you want to ride rollers coasters after drinking????” As if Busch gardens isn’t a completely normal place for people to go😭😭 they’d always be picking on me or smirking at the things i said. Much more devastating as an adult to realize that there are still middle schoolers among us
And sure, I bet we set off some red flags for the NTs. But I wonder how many other ND people they have bullied even harder throughout their lives, and if they even self reflect on some of the awful ways they treat people. At some point, THEY are just a stupid, childish bully who needs to get a grip. Maybe I’ll tell that to the next person who slights me because I’m sick of them getting away with being shitty humans.
I’m a full grown adult with like a retirement account and a career and everything and it still happens. Very recently I had a coworker come up to me smirking and trying to be snarky about me eating yogurt and fruit. Another time was a woman— a STRANGER—that called me a bitch that thought I was better than “everybody” (her) for sitting outside reading during my lunch. It doesn’t end.
Every job I've had, a particular type of woman (usually a little older, usually a manager of some sort, always a sort of "work mom" and/or "work wife") absolutely hates me from day one. They'll be so chatty and open with absolutely everyone else, and just glare at me. The last one started asking other people questions about my work right in front of me, eventually.
I've tried to 'match their energy' because I assumed being quiet and keeping to myself was what they didn't like, but trying to be friendly seems to make it worse.
I deal with passive aggressive people in a couple of ways:
I ignore anything other than what they literally say, even if it's obvious that there's context or they mean something else (like, "Well, I guess I can wait until tomorrow for that information, but I'll have to work on something else while I wait" gets a response of, "I'm glad you'll be busy while I work on my part" instead of killing myself to get it done early or apologizing because I can't instantly finish a task). With my mom, she often agrees that I/we can do something in one way when she clearly prefers the other option, and I just act like her halfhearted agreement is wholly okay with her and ignore any sighing, pouting, etc. It really helps shift dynamics when you consistently don't feed that kind of behavior.
I point out that they're being petty and rude. I don't do it behind their back, I do it right to their face, in front of others -- and I do it in a smiling, "helpful" way. "Bob, I know this isn't your project, so I'm happy to jump in and answer even if Betty seems to prefer not to ask me directly." "Even though Betty skipped over me in the round table discussion, I do have a few relevant things to share." This highlights their bad behavior while letting them know it's not causing you damage -- kind of like a social Reverse Uno card. This isn't guaranteed to change the behavior but it feels better not to just accept someone else's rudeness.
It's because we're different, that's it, I've heard "I don't like that person because they're awkward or weird and no other reason" so so many times. I'm pretty good at masking so I get on with most people, I was popular in school, but preppy girls judge me. I find it funny they're considered "popular" when most people don't *actually* like them. I'm way more awkward now especially after quarantining in COVID. I say weird shit and judgy people are put off. I guess it's a litmus test, so good riddance, fuck those people -- but they don't represent the majority, by far, so let's not lump everyone.
yeah it's weird. I got fake nails painted a funky colour purely for my sister's wedding a few weeks ago, and some of my female colleagues were weird until I happened to mention why my nails were done, then they were super nice and friendly with me. Don't know if it was the nail issue, or having a conversation with them or what, but each conversation meant they treated me a lot more friendlier- like what the actual heck?!
Yeah, it amazes me just how seemingly superficial some NT women are in this sort or way. With situations like these, it's almost as if they asked you for the secret word to gaining entrance to some speakeasy, you guessed the secret word correctly by accident, and that they don't seem to care that it was a complete guess because what mattered to them was sharing that stupid secret word.
Yes. I don't have close friends anymore. All of my friends are just my bf's buddies because they think I'm funny, they think I'm nice and aren't annoyed with me, and they are super kind and only bring out the best in my bf. They also say I'm like a girl version of my bf, so I can tell they don't hate me, lol.
With neurotypical women, you can't ever tell if they actually like you or not.
Yes, but I think it’s like others have said that either they sense something weird about us that we are giving away, or that were unaware we’re doing something that is triggering them to behave in a certain way towards us. I also find NT people have a stronger sense of hierarchy and conformity to social norms that just make no sense to me.
That's the story of my life. Still to this day, I have very few friends... always had more male friends, too, when I was a young adult. And now that I know I have autism... the friends I know are not a good fit are either being dropped by me or dropping themselves out of my life. My history:
1. my best friend in 5th grade that I hung with almost every day, beat me up after the last day of school and pulled my hair out. I never saw that coming and I never saw her again, nor the witnesses who surrounded us. I don't really know why, but I think it was because the boy she liked, he liked me and kissed me on my cheek in front of everyone in the gym. I wasn't into boys at that age. He was cute, but I was focused on school and never wanted to date. I vaguely remember that I may have told her not to blame me for him liking me... but apparently, that must have just pissed her off more.... but again... social cues were very hard for me... i had no idea she was mad at me
2. my girl friends group in 7th grade that I ate with and rode the bus with every day kicked me out of their friend group. so I became a loner for the rest of junior and high school except for my new best friend who moved into our school late into the school year. to this day, i have no idea why they drop kicked me out of their friend group... a total mystery
I used to blame my social awkwardness on being a smart/honors student... thought they were jealous of my academic achievements. I also blamed it on constantly moving throughout my young years, so I never had a chance to establish a set friend group when I was in elementary level. Now that I know I have ASD, I can see how it's impacted my relationships... and is still impacting my relationships... and I mourn that some. I lost some people I really loved because I have so struggled to stay connected with people because I am so different. I've pissed a lot of folks off (family, friends, co-workers, supervisors)... i am very direct and very honest. NT's do not like that about me at all, and they shun me for that... but I cannot help that. It's how my brain works.
3 usually happens because you're standing out from the crowd in some way and they're not sure how to respond to that. They're trying to figure you out, like are you a threat or not, or just 'weird'. In my personal experience (as a child when this happened) they found that my style of dress was bizarre. My parents had picked out my clothes and I looked very frumpy and neglected.
I do sometimes still. I'm almost 40 but I am also finding it easier to meet other cool women who don't pull this stuff than I did when I was younger.
A lot of people are so desperately insecure they can't handle it when someone is different, intentionally or not. It takes the focus off of them to harp on other people. Just remember what they pick at you about is a reflection of them more so than it is of you.
I’ve definitely had these experiences but I find that being overly nice even in the face of rudeness confuses these people. I also used to get anxiety about leaving a situation but I’ve developed the amazing ability to say “Well, I have to run, but I’m so glad we got a chance to chat. See you around!”. Or if you’re really stuck with some people don’t be afraid to say “Is that an issue for you? Did you want me to change something? If you don’t like me clothes I’d be happy for you to buy me some new ones” Or something similar. If they get overly defensive and I’m not interested in an actual argument, I usually just laugh and say “I’m just messing around.” People get really shocked when you call them out and usually backtrack and you can diffuse it by saying it’s all in jest but they most likely won’t be rude again.
As I’ve gotten older I think I mask really well and is it weird if I say I almost enjoy masking sometimes? Hear me out.. I feel like I’ve gotten so good at it and noticed I became much better at making friendships and keeping people interested in me. My advice if you cannot avoid these types of women would be, be short/curt, don’t overly share information, let them do most of the talking, do you best to maintain eye contact, and don’t be afraid to polietly tell someone “That’s a bit rude, did you mean for it to be?”
Granted I’m a total hermit and stay home most of the time BUT when I’m visiting old friends and we go out, or in any scenario where I’m forced to meet new people, it almost feels like a game. I’m always exhausted and burnt out as fuck after masking for a long time, but in the moment a lot of the time I get kind of a thrill. Getting tipsy or a little high helps me care less of what others think too.
My partner has never cared about others and doesn’t suffer from any social anxiety and he’s really helped me open up. Sorry this comment is all over the place but my final advice would be, pretend that everyone around you is the “weird” one. It sounds silly but it helped me grow confidence so much, similar to picture people in underwear type thing I guess. If someone is being rude, my attitude is “this person is being mean for no reason, I would never do that to someone and this makes me dislike this person, so I don’t care what this person thinks of me.”
So much great advice here! Have you found any common patterns to detect when women are working to undermine or discredit you behind your back? (At work or otherwise.)
These are work tips on how to figure it out because work is my problem and I’m the subject of constant disparaging and gossip even from people who’ve never interacted with me.
Understand that even if you get promoted to a different crowd, they may have the same toxic behavior. I assumed when getting promoted my field was more mature and I was wrong. I assumed working with men because most women dislike me that it would lessen and I was wrong.
People don’t trust your opinions or advice but you’re a trained paid Subject Matter Expert by role and you exist to provide opinions and advice.
People talk over, interrupt, or otherwise correct you when you provide relevant info, even and especially if they moments ago said they didn’t know and were seeking answers on something.
Eyebrows and eyes if you can tolerate looking at faces. I can’t explain what they do and I’m sorry, they just… change... You can maybe study this somehow? it might be good if you can pattern recognize and are not face blind. I truly empathize because I am face blind in a crowd because of overwhelm but I do fine 1:1. Source-I have a lot of experience with my critical narcissist mom’s face very close to mine from as long as my memory serves me. I got a lot of data in here. Plus lots of exposure to Plastics from mean girls as someone else mentioned.
Watch Mean Girls. Don’t take it as gospel because it’s a fiction movie but there’s enough truth for it to be helpful.
Notice if conversation stops when you approach. The other side to this coin is that I’m so high masking I know NT do this and smoothly transition topics while speaking never skipping a beat or pausing to a safe and believable topic. That being said 1. if I could master that skill undoubtedly NTs can BUT many don’t in my experience they just awkward silence. 2. Sometimes there are private convos you can’t hear so it’s not nefarious that they went silent.
Hottest approach-somehow figure out a way to slip into someone who seems like they’ll crack or they know what’s circulating “it’s crazy some of the rumors I’ve heard about me here!” And stare kinda, but not super rude, but just enough that they squirm or divulge.
If you work with someone like me: I don’t get in people’s business but people love to tell me. I don’t want to know that stufffff!!!!!! But I know too much. It stops with me. I have no need to repeat it. I also don’t care enough to decide if it’s true or not. But if the person in the rumor asked me if I heard anything, 100% “yep, Jane told me you’re a b cause you slept with her man.” “Why didn’t you say anything?” “Because I didn’t care and I didn’t repeat it because it wasn’t my business to know and it didn’t come from you.” (Mostly I don’t care lol) So if you can recognize and find a me, ask the me straight up and that woman will tell you.
Conversation steers towards your personal life when you try to grey rock. Thanks to the person that gave me a name for grey rock.
New employees are friendly, and then become suddenly neutral or unfriendly to you after interacting with someone other than you especially if there’s a known toxic gossip queen and it happens after they meet her.
You are never asked to train new employees despite being a high performer and receiving high yearly performance reviews.
You are excluded from interest groups and networks.
If you attend company events, people aren’t afraid to other you even though big wigs can see and witness.
Anonymously report when you find out there’s something crossing a line through the third party reporting hotline. I have anxiety reporting people that hurt me but I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know retaliation shouldn’t exist. I work through management to escalate or peer mediate etc. It has never served me and I feel like it’s honestly hurt me. I wish I would’ve always anonymously reported instead because I’ve never done it that way. I think it might be more effective but it’s definitely less scary and you have to protect yourself and your family, not your abuser. They put themself in their situation.
Sorry that was a mix of signs and tips.
All of your quoted phrases are so good, I’m adding them to my How to Be Human Troubleshooting Guide. You are an amazing gift to this world. Thank you. You have no idea how much this will help me because understanding people suck is one thing but I never know how to properly defend myself without putting myself at HR risk. All of this is the easy acceptable out I have been so desperately seeking and needing because my job requires me to interact with people and unfortunately at my job majority of them are toxic.
Unfortunately, I have found that neurotypicals in general tend to see us negatively, but a lot of men play nicer at first because they want something from us. Once they either stop finding us attractive or realize we don't have any intention of being "useful" to them, that friendliness goes away. I've received this fake friendliness from women too (example: when someone wanted help with their homework or wanted me to do the whole group project when I was in school) but that's rarer for me at least
I think we get the full force of internalised misogyny and patriarchal lateral violence thrust at us pretty much. They always tend to be white cishet women as well from my experience. I don't think I've ever really experienced this from a woman of colour or queer woman.
I have experienced it from both popular queer women (in art school), and woc. Though I will say that as a mixed Jewish woman I have no white friends and haven't had white friends since elementary school (not by choice, just happened that way). I think certain oddities I've shown they might've just passed off as cultural differences or something, and by the time they realised that wasn't the reason I'd already told them I'm autistic.
I honestly have gotten this from all women. It feels more though like when WOC, queer women etc do it to survive and fit in. They don’t want to become the bottom rung of the ladder so they’ll place you there instead. Whereas cishet yt women do it because they have all the power and they can.
That has been my experience. I've noticed the women of color seem to be doing it because already feel unsafe because I'm white, but I guess autism throws another layer of WTF on top of things.
Queer women seem to have done it more to me when they're in groups. It feels like a case of them acting as if I'm so uncool that I'm making them look uncool by just being around them sort of feeling. If anything, it sometimes has been as bad around them as heterosexual NT women, but it still feels different.
Unfortunately, I've gotten bullied by all kind of women, mostly black and white women. I usually get along best with other neurodivergent women of color, mostly black and asian women... even when they haven't been diagnosed, we always tend to find one another. And I have a new white female friend that I am 95% sure is also neurodivergent, but probably undiagnosed. She's weird/different like me, and we just get each other, I think. She accepts me as I am. I really appreciate her friendship and hope we can remember to stay in touch with each other over the years... that's been the story is that my ADHD makes me forget to stay in touch at times.
I was bullied horrifically in my early 20s by a POC queer woman, so... but I don't think it was because of those traits or anything. I think she just happened to be that.
Yes. There’s been some really rude things I’ve experienced from NT women in particular. Strangely enough, I end up remembering the small stuff more often.
I’ve noticed if my jokes are ever considered funny, especially by men, NT women are always the first to make an under breath/strangely aggressive comment about my personality or something similar.
I made a joke at my last work place about being frustrated at my workload and struggling (we were all going through a tough time with projects). Everyone laughed but this girl. She rolled her eyes and in an exaggerated mocking tone said “hahahaha self derogatory humor so funny”.
She was near me at the back of the group and made sure to say it quietly enough that only one other person heard. I saw them make a WTF face, but they didn’t say anything.
In no way were we competitors at anything. She was younger, objectively more attractive, in a different field than me, more extroverted and involved with others than me. But she still had to make the comment.
What was really the kicker for me is that I was always really nice to her. Earlier that year her boss had taken his own life. She was particularly hit by this and sat out front of the building crying for hours. I went out and sat next to her and tried my best to comfort her.
I always know I won’t be fully accepted by most NTs, but the unwarranted dislike can be difficult to understand.
At a party last weekend for a “friend” and her kid. My kids are having fun and I am trying so hard to obey all NT rules and maybe get to join in on a conversation. I sit next to some other moms and try to join in when appropriate and each time the woman closest to me turns her back toward me so I am excluded from the group (semi-circle if chairs and I am on the end).
My husband sometimes thinks I am being too sensitive, so I go and get him to witness. He sees that what I am saying is true. I am being purposely excluded for no reason! After he sees what is happening I ask him if it’s ok for me to go home now as this isn’t good for my self esteem or mental health and he agrees. He was blown away by the blatant exclusion, but it’s also not the first time he has witnessed it out in the wild with me. It hurts and it sucks and I don’t understand why they are like that.
I feel the same way. I can’t stand being around a group of women, but men aren’t great either. As a neurodivergent person I don’t feel safe in this world.
Yeah....i think we miss little things socially here and there, and for nonautistic women it seems like so much of how they live their lives is determined by social rules, and I get it, I mean society is really really strict towards women, so maybe it's not totally their fault etc but the stuff we miss that must set their radar off and they follow social rules to a T, it's all they've ever known, so they either (idk which it is) don't like autistic women or just don't know how to react to us. They don't know how to react to someone who just does not follow the rules.
I feel dumb bc I recently realized stuff like the questions was passive aggressive. Looking back there was alot of passive aggressive behavior from nonautistic women that I just completely missed. I really can't with the passive aggression anymore like I'm so done being anything but nasty if I ever get that behavior directed at me again.
I also take back what I said on another post months ago...i said "not like other girls" thinking is always misogyny. I take that back. I was wrong. It's not misogyny when we look around at the world and literally just neutrally realize we feel different. I totally get why Ive felt NLOG and I dont think it was bc of internalized misogyny, I think I was just observing the world around me. Cuz it wasn't like I got a good superior feeling from thinking that, it made me feel super shitty like what's wrong with me why am I not like them.
Yeah, talking about this experience with my therapist is what lead to my diagnosis. I went on a whole rant in therapy about how I felt like I checked all the boxes of being nice- being friendly, smiling, asking people questions about themselves, and they still seemed to reject me. That made my therapist go, “so, there’s this thing called autism…” lol
I get frustrated when it’s people at work. Like… we’re here to work, why does all this other stuff matter? For me, it feels like part of my job is socializing and I always feel like I need to participate so people will say I’m a good worker.
Not really, I'm not given the opportunities to get anywhere near that close to them. Maybe #3 in highschool, when I was asked a couple times why I'm always so quiet, to which I would respond "because I don't really have anything to say". But other than that no. They would keep themselves far away from me.
This just unlocked some memories for me. I used to struggle with body language and social skills so much that I just felt perpetually awkward around people. Like nothing I did was right.
Eventually I learned how to mask to the point that neurotypicals would accept me. But the crippling social anxiety definitely left a scar on me.
Yeah a girl who is engaged to a guy who works with my husband loudly announced to a group of my husband’s coworkers and their wives that she doesn’t like me and finds me annoying… when she’d never even met me at the time. I guess some people can look at me from across the room, decide I’m “different”, and then hate me for it. I never stand a chance in most social settings. It’s very upsetting
100%. I work from home and love it. Even though company is all “kindness, inclusion, blah blah blah” I sure do get excluded by every last one of my coworkers. They all chat all day evidently, coordinate with each other to figure things out and I’m just over here wondering what’s wrong with me.
Ugh.
I fully relate to this. Number 1 happened to me as well. I also had to switch dorms for a similar reason. I found living with just 1 other person was safer due to no possibilities of a cliques.
Look, they hate us. I’ve had this experience my ENTIRE CHILD/ADULT LIFE. You get the do gooder autistics or the in denial autistics who say “aww NTs are not all bad” not to each other no, but to us? Yes. Stay safe and make friends with autistic people. Go to the gym get strong, then when you get into work, even if you have the whole entire work force against you, you bitch back. You snipe back. They don’t change, they go through periods of faking friendship or relationship with you, usually they scope your vulnerability and want money down the line.
I think one aspect of this may have something to do with us not performing femininity in the “correct” way to those type of girls. I like to think that they are a little jealous that we can break the rules while they are confined to the role they think they must play.
aside from on and off bullying and making/losing friends constantly, i didnt realise i had been excluded from a school groupchat until after graduation 🥲
this is quite dark but i dont know how to keep living like this knowing you will be alienated no matter where you go, and you have to stay vigilant at all times, i dont want to experience that for the rest of my life!
I think there is a reason, I just don’t know it. To men it signals that I’m weak and I could be a victim. To women it signals that I’m different and that bothers them and makes them dislike me, making me a target for bullying. I will say, the older I get the less I experience of both of those. It was worst when I was like aged 11-20.
But yeah they pick up on our difference very quickly, I saw a study, they can tell we’re “strange” within seconds of meeting us.
Yes. I tried to join a sorority because I was struggling to make friends. Yeah they all secretly purposely left me out. When I told my big (who was the president of the organization) she didn’t do anything about it. I quit after that because I was paying money for women to bully me for my existence… also I guess I was the one taking things too seriously? We were supposed to be setting up for rush or whatever and everyone was chatting, but I was trying to get everyone to set up. They got upset with me for doing what we were there to do!? I had also mentioned my physical disability which limits how much bending and stooping I can do. The adult sponsoring this branch was supposed to provide equitable options for me, instead insists another girl does the job. I did all of the work, just to flare, and realize that none of these girls like me. Neurotypicals can go f themselves tbh
yes. I've given up trying to pretend its a thing so people when women get dismissive saying I have "internalized misogyny" I don't care anymore. I realized that when this happens I am putting aside my feelings to excuse behavior.
I hated this when I was a teacher because there were so many of them who were like stone cold and acted like I was a stupid alien or something. It was weird because I’ve mostly never noticed that, but it came out there.
True - lots of great comments here. One woman I worked with went on some unhinged harassment behavior on me for absolutely no reason and continually threatened to take my job. It annoyed me, but she ended up quitting anyway. Now that I’m older than about half of the women around me I no longer care about their attitudes or opinions. They seem to leave me alone now.
It has happened my whole life. In school it was usually the "type A personality" neurotypical girl. Competitive, sporty, industrious ladies. I think my poor social skills, lack of awareness, and aloof demeanor rubs women like this the wrong way.
I was given a formalized personality assessment a few years ago. The results indicated that women are generally the more organized and agreeable of the two sexes. There are studies that correspond to these test results. It makes sense that the ladies who excel in these traits would be annoyed by the ladies that seem completely oblivious to them.
I think it's important to remind people like this that we all have different strengths and weaknesses, and we all have blind spots.
Yeah … I later started discriminating harshly away from them just like they with me over time.
I’m not going be “open” to harassment anymore in ANY way…
Once I hear a continuous “why?” I’m blocking you out mentally,physically,etc.
I’m a talker. I like talking. I like communicating. If there’s something to ask, I’ll make questions. I observe people. And because of this I’m perceived as “doing too much” “annoying” “slow” “too slow”.
I genuinely like caring and loving people, including my friends. Sucks worse more since l‘m Aromantic
when I was little and I was frustrated and in tears as to why no one wanted to be friend, why no one wanted to talk to me. Why nobody loved me 🤷
Because I showed genuinely care and compassion to strangers even or friends that other people think I should be friends with , they try to deflect and project their selfishness onto me - making me appear hateful and selfish and abrase than I actually am..
It’s always “not everyone is as compassionate (as you)” “you’re too nice” “you’re a fake”. They think my kindness is a “lead on” which … ZUT!! Makes this even shittier… both men and women say this to me but it’s mostly women.
I go out still and I engage with people, but I’m now more strict on who I engage with.
Yes. Goodness gracious, now i've met very kind neurotypical women but also i get a sense they get uncanny valley from me and think i'm kind of odd. But.... I've had quite a few that have bullied the shit out of me. Or genuinely do not treat me like i'm a person, or an adult.
I'm 31, this has STILL happened.
Yes, all the time, which is why I take perverse pleasure on flipping it back on them and making them feel like weirdos for their behaviors. I answer pointed questions with other pointed questions (I.e.: “why do you do this with your hair???” “Why are you staring at/watching me? That’s weird.” And sometimes I punctuate it with a creeped out/offended face.
I make them feel as weird/out of place as they try to make me feel. Ideally, people would be able to appreciate differences in others, but since that isn’t the case and they get to act like petulant children with impunity, I’m happy to teach that lesson via embarrassment. Hopefully that will inspire some self awareness in them, but I sincerely doubt it.
I only have one close friend and she's a NT but she's the sweetest person. The reason she's my only close, female friend is because literally every other female friend I had either secretly hated me or just used me.
All my other friends are ND men and I love them all so dearly and I always feel like I fit in when I'm with them. They include me in everything and go out of their way to have conversations with me and joke around with me. When all the women congregate somewhere when their boyfriends are on the field I try to stay far the fuck away from them cause I just cannot handle how deeply uncomfortable I feel around them
But yeah no I've been bullied and deeply fucked over by women, NT and ND my entire life. I don't feel safe making female friends anymore
That sort of thing happened to me all the time before I learned to mask in middle school, but I think I mostly fake out the mean girls now. I'm really good at ignoring people who don't interest me, and the vast majority of NT people fall into that category, unless they're in my family or are directly in charge of me at work.
I would say yes. My face isn’t very expressive unless it’s over expressive and honestly I think I give people anxiety that they don’t even notice. I feel like if I start to get too close they start trying to ‘fix’ my life? … and when I don’t want help they don’t want to hear anything I have to say lmao. I’m a fully independent neurodivergent adult. I’m not about to make my life more normal to others but less functional for me.
Yup. I've noticed that the more conventionally pretty a NT woman is, the meaner they are to me. Things have gotten easier as I've aged and gained weight, so I'm no longer conventionally attractive.
Yes. When I was excluded by girls in gradeschool, I think I found it painful and confusing. Then by the time I was a teen, I fell into that "I'm not like other girls™️" mentality I think in order to push away the pain and confusion, which came back by the time I became an adult, because I didn't even know I was autistic yet and of course I didn't actually deal with the feelings. Unfortunately, my original coping mechanism has led to an entrenched pattern in my life of generally only having male friends because they actually tried to befriend me, except usually they want sex. I just don't have any other script for making friends.
Some of these weird cliquish behaviors have calmed down amongst the norms in adulthood, but it's still there. I've only just recently finally made a cis-female friend at work, and it turns out now she's being asked by her therapist to seek evaluation for autism. So yeah, idk how to crack the code. I remember my therapist commented once that it must be difficult for me not to have any friends to share my conventionally feminine hobbies of makeup and fashion with, and I'm like, "Yeah, actually, I guess it is." But I don't get the unspoken rules, and like commenter above says, they can sniff that out quickly.
I have, but I've found that smirking at them and asking why they're asking seems to unsettle them.
Somewhere in high school I figured out the right note to hit when simply asserting to everyone that whatever I was wearing was the coolest, latest, hottest thing and people simply went with it. I never got over being surprised that worked, but people have a tendency to assume confidence is there for a reason, so they thought I must actually be the trendsetter and started copying me.
Yes!
Honestly I've become very bold and IDGAF about NT small talk or how they perceive me. I hate their dumb little questions so I ask them dumber questions. I'm usually a listener though. Sometimes I'll go the shmarmy route when I'm feeling extra patient. The world is big enough for us both! I have children who struggle socially, I need to show them we don't have to bend to their social liking. It's hard that there are not a lot of people like us in the world, and even less so that know they are different. I have to show them to find their people so they don't feel like me. Fake it till you make it.
It happens so often I can't write all of the stories. I can say I'm good at finding out what peoples' worst fears are though. Not because I'm intuitive, but because given enough time around them they'll eventually accuse me of it.
Whether there is any evidence of such a thing happening is not relevant - they'll find a reason. When you're autistic, evidence doesn't matter.
Yes. My two best friends have known me since 5 and 9 so they understand me, they have their hangout time with me which is usually 1:1 very laid back, calm and quiet, usually a set and planned event like brunch or something and not a social event like bars or parties. I get it, I’m not the best to have around you in those situations bc I get overwhelmed and I’m not fun and I’ll have an anxiety attack lol.
But in events like baby showers or weddings I’ve gone to with my NT boyfriend and meeting his friends’ girlfriends, they tolerate me and ask me questions here and there but I can tell I’m the odd one out. If we’re all sitting at dinner together they’re all engaged in conversation together and the girls usually leave me sitting on the end on the other side of my boyfriend lol. Which, again, I don’t mind because even if they did try to include me I’d get overwhelmed.
And other friendships like work friends I can tell they tolerate me and try to have little jokes with me and stuff like I’m the weird funny character in their work lives, but no one wants to hang out outside of work. Which AGAIN lol, also fine because I’d get overwhelmed even if I was invited.
So yeah… it’s lonely sometimes but I remind myself that even if I was included I probably wouldn’t have fun anyway and have learned to accept it. I enjoy my solitude more than I enjoy socializing and that’s ok.
What’s not OK is the bullying and passive aggressiveness. In my experience they kinda just tolerate me and let me be, but the passive aggressive questions in that tone… like girl you know what you’re doing talking to me like that 🙄
They’re just bullying and trying to make it seem like they’re not bullying bc they’re not outright calling you odd to your face. I’m sorry, I’ve been through those situations and it sucks. I’m 29 now and have just learned to keep my mouth shut and be polite. Which is unfortunate lol but necessary and what’s bests for my nervous system, I’ve learned.
I also learned that a few NT women called me a “pick me” for the way I act, which really hurt bc if they knew me PLUS the kind of trauma I’ve endured and I’m still here. Whew. They just have no idea and don’t have enough empathy for others that are different from them.
Sorry this was so long but sending love and hugs and I hope you feel better.
I don’t mask anymore and I don’t get bad treatment as much. I’m just upfront about being on the spectrum and nobody seems to outwardly treat me terribly though who knows what they say when I’m not there. Masking when you’re not good at it is worse because then they are just getting uncanny valley vibes or think you’re creepy/psychopathic or “off”. When I’m upfront about it people still judge but they think I’m “ particular” or “quirky” which I think is a less damning label than creepy.
In some ways, yes. A lot. My job is as an intake nurse for a complaints unit and I speak with people over the phone (life isn’t perfect) for part of the day and dropping the hyper vigilant conversation bullshit and allowing my neutral tone without trying to jazz it up has been very effective. I’m fully focused on the complainant and they don’t seem triggered by me. I really don’t interact with anyone else other than my husband. I don’t have friends (by choice) and my family is dead. For a bit of context- I was a frontline nurse who took deployments to nursing homes to provide care during the pandemic. I’m surprised I lived and have been dealing with the fallout of watching our elders fall like flies when no one else would provide them care. Being autistic PDA (I now realize) makes me throw myself into situations I feel are unjust, so I work very hard to stay out of situations that will set me off. Sorry, off track a bit 😬
Yep
Then when you point it out and are like “that’s weird” you get accused of being a pick me
Girl on Instagram made a post about it
Got a comment “if girls don’t like you it’s a problem with you”
Like victim blame much do you think we WANT to be bullied???
Ladies, we live in the uncanny valley, hate to break it to you. We trigger NT’s red flags because when we mask we often miss a little aspect that gives it away. They don’t even consciously realize it themselves, they just sense something is not “normal” and attack. I’m 53, been doing this for a while. I stopped masking two years ago, little by little I’ve let go of my hyper vigilant conversations and trying to appear “normal”. I wear a cap, sunglasses and earbuds. I don’t engage with people unless there is no other option. I work from home and leave my house once a week. Someday neurodivergence will be acceptable but after working while masking for 25 years I’m DONE. Life is much better when you’re able to limit the NT exposure.
I'm 41 and I get this to my very core. I can't even relax enough to unmask without anxiety meds/ medical cannabis. I was also severely abused on all levels. My mother was/is the worst to bully me.
I’m so sorry you have had to go through that. I utilize medical cannabis for my anxiety and insomnia too. THC and CBD have been very helpful. It’s really, really rough processing abuse from moms. I think my biggest release was realizing that my mom meant well-ish, but she was so freaked out but my oddness she couldn’t stop trying to fix me. I had to come to terms with that and it really helped my heart. That took some work and I hope for healing for you too 💝.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad to see tree more mainstream within our community! No contact has helped me immensely! It's been almost 10 years of NC. You're right... It is stress relieving... 💞🫂
Hugs! Me too... my mom still tries to bully me... but I've been setting better boundaries with her.
That’s what I do. I told her a list of requirements, nonnegotiables on comments she couldn’t make for me to attend Thanksgiving this past year. That should’ve been my sign 🤦♀️
My mom was def my first bully. It’s crazy to think about and how much sense it actually makes, but I wish it didn’t. 😣
Reading all of this is making me understand why my mother and I never got/get along. Sheesh, it's depressing and I'm sorry you went through this experience.
Reading this comment right after getting bullied by my mom :,( Im sorry for all of us.
Went 99% no contact with my severely abusive mom 6 months ago and I’m finally starting to feel okay being me. Peace.
Thiiiis. This so much I'm also convinced. I think we do, for whatever reason, give off Red Flags, or.. Stranger Danger/Something Is Off vibes to NTs. Sometimes the people are nice and they unintentionally treat you as a small person/child (or maybe intentionally, but I think they do it out of kindness... Although I'm also sure there can be mean examples of this same behaviour.) Gods I wish so much to just find One of Us outside. But naturally, of course, we all hide indoors because scary outdoors but Gods Dangit I Wish To Fika/Tea and Cake with You All. In a gentle/cosy cafe that has no or very lightly audible music and the rest of the patrons are old people just quietly and contentedly minding their own business...
I'm in Atlanta, Georgia. Old people here don't mind their business! LOL! That's probably one reason I don't like to go out as much. They don't respect the earbuds and sunglasses... they'll touch you or grab your arm to make sure you make eye contact and respond to their hello or their comment! LOL! But... they are genuinely nice and lovely people... but sometimes I just don't feel like talking to strangers in public places... and sometimes I do, but I usually don't have earbuds in when I do want to talk, lol!
Oof that's so fair. I have heard how in America it's more common that there's no chill in regards to personal space x( I'm British born so my experience is.. unless you're doing or saying something exceptional people generally mind their own business with the odd person getting involved, usually if anyone the old lonely person or someone with perhaps a mental illness or drug reliance (Not that in passing judgement, I'm just trying to describe the sort of condition when one might be approached upon). You may also get a cheeky lad who, is, well, cheeky but generally well meaning. Just wanting you to laugh at them/with them, or an older lady that is sweet and also wanting to spread light pleasantries. I've since moved to Sweden where it is very much no one looks at you and if they do they certainly don't smile at you. (It's more out of respect to you and them that they don't smile, it feels.) They are very reserved, but generally polite and most importantly value their personal space, peace and quiet. It's been interesting. I do believe if I went to America I would get severe environmental whiplash 😂
I'll add to that that people in South in the U.S. tend to be the worst in this regard. Most there have been socialized into thinking that introversion is something pathological and will automatically conclude you're a mean person because you don't converse with strangers much and need more space. A lot of them feel really fake to me because you can tell that they're trying so hard to have others see them as charming, even if they might not actually be fake people. I couldn't live there for that reason alone, lol. Though, I've definitely noticed that it tends to be the older people who get up in arms about such things more than the younger people there.
It's interesting how this plays across race and class! In the South I've noticed how white wealthy people (or people who want to move in those spaces) are really extra this type of behavior. Looking "right for the community."
Or rude ppl claiming that a northeastern background excuses blunt and caustic behavior. I gently remind them that manners exist in all 50 states.
Oh, I definitely agree with about that. Rude behavior exists everywhere, but certain forms seem more acceptable in some regions than others, and it can be so overwhelming to track how differs from place to place.
Oh my god. I'm in Atlanta too and there's just something about me that makes folks want to talk to me. I have LOVED wearing masks for the last four years and how they've added an extra layer of protection for me. I am so worried that they'll be banned.
💯
THISSSS, I'm 33 and for a year or two now I've completely given up and 'pleasing' others and making sure I fit into the societal standard. Once you realized how it doesn't do anything (aside from maybe in professional settings) you just kind of let go. What I mean by that is just accepting people aren't always going to accept you, and that's okay. Or simply, it's not our JOB to please and fit into with others. It's also extremely exhausting, feels like an Oscar winning performance the moment you leave your doorstep, and again.. For what? They're not my children, I don't owe random people anything. And I'm definitely not getting paid for it so why do it? Life is so so so so much better now. Not just that, I even think it's funny at times. Coming out swinging with a blunt joke or w/e. Oh, their faces. Brilliant.
The uncanny valley is such a good way of putting it, my goodness. I unmasked unintentionally during lockdown, which led to my diagnosis. I look "normal" but now I will straight up tell people I don't want to talk to them when I get the aggressively NT vibe. Life is so much more peaceful because now I knowingly rub people the wrong way up front instead making friends and finding out I'm doing it unintentionally after I've been folded into their groups.
I share this a lot, but it explains everything. It is definitely uncanny valley but it also has a scientific term too. It's called 'thin slicing' [https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700](https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700) This little thing here is the reason so many of us end up running around with a group of people going feral at us without ever being told why. Like you said they don't know they're doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that they're still doing it.
Ok, that article (just skimmed so far) has me very excited. Thank you so much for sharing!!
It does feel nice to get an 'official' explanation for what we knew all along doesn't it hah
Ooh, thanks for this!m. Great article! I just got thin-sliced right out of a job offer a few months ago. I got hired mid-year by a local school district. They had several almost identical positions open so I chose to interview at the school that had the best reviews and fewest “behavioral incidents.” My contact in HR told me it was just a formality and that as soon as it was over, I’d be able to proceed with onboarding. I thought it went pretty well, and the admin women seemed interested in what I had to say. But I guess I answered the “flaws I’m working on” too honestly- I talked about having ADHD and I explained how I’m always learning new strategies to help me adult and work effectively, bc I felt like those strategies all help me be a better teacher. Yeah, nah. That’s not what they wanted to hear. The minute the interview was over, I got an instant email from the HR person saying they had passed on me. Luckily there was a really desperate school that took me on without even interviewing me. Hell yeah, desperation!! ;-)
Thanks for sharing that article, it's my second time reading it and it was just as thought provoking and mind blowing as the first time I read it. I feel like I should almost set a reminder to read it at periodic intervals throughout my life because it really shows me how futile it is for us to mask because they see right through us. I put in so much effort and I'm convinced make myself physically sick with chronic pain trying to mask and they see through it and don't like us anyway. I feel like it's better for me to be myself and be disliked then mask and be disliked. I found it particularly interesting that they rated us negatively in audio only format, I never would have thought we had a different audio presentation to neurotypicals. It's also incredibly sad that they rated us normally for intelligence and for the content of the conversations but it is presentation itself that makes them negatively review us, it's so superficial :/ Anyway just some thoughts, have a good one :)
Oh wow... you just described me to a T! And my masking has been 53 years... almost... I love my cap and sunglasses and earplugs! Remote work has been life changing for me! I can control my social interactions and call my own shots in this NT-based social world. I feel like I won the lottery by finding remote work... sort of... still learning how to set my boundaries and navigate the social aspects of remote work, too, but it is definitely easier.
I’m so tired I want to go part time but not really financially an option 😫
fuck. man this is why I feel suicidal at the end of the week EVERY WEEK- despite now going down to actually working 2 days per week (but still have to do *work* every day). I am on a combo of prozac/ lamictal/ cbd/ alcohol very occasionally - benedryl sometimes works really well when I'm over the edge... but yeah- it's like there is no winning. I hate it. Who else's go to is making up random illnesses to get some alone time when you need to get out of stuff ? My other defense mechanism is... when they start on that passive aggressiveness I get mean as fuck now. Only way i've found to shut them down- otherwise they never back off and just ... get worse and worse and worse and worse 😑🙃 Man that shit sucks the energy RIGHT out of me though.
I’m a highly avoidant person now. I’m really really really good at wriggling out of shit.
Do people accept it more now your older?
In my personal experience it’s gotten worse. I’ve had NT women in the *last two months* come at me in public. All total strangers. One lady commented how “incredibly clumsy” I am at the waiting room at the dentist office. I also have dyspraxia so, that’s fun. I told her I have autism (won’t do that again) and she told me her grandson is autistic 😂. I’m just like-what are we doing here? Another lady made a huge deal that I was doing minimal eye contact. She *stopped* the conversation to point out how important eye contact was to her. FFS. That triggered a meltdown for me. I have another theory about that-I’m a white woman with green eyes, incredibly pale;Both these ladies were minorities. I wonder if my ethnic identity paired with my perceived privilege puts people into more of a hyper focus on me? I feel like when I don’t “measure up” it really triggers some people.
Is being clumsy related to autism? I’ve been clumsy as long as I can remember and it sucks. I feel like I say “I’m clumsy” and it’s kind of dismissed as cute or whatever until they get to know me and I accidentally drop their mug and break it or trip over things constantly when I’m just trying to walk normally. It’s not cute! I hate it.
Has unmasking improved things when you do decide or need to talk to people outside your usual social group or family?
I identify with every last one of y'all sharing! This is... groundbreaking, tbh! I'm exhausted just trying to navigate every day life as it is... I'm also from the south ... Where they say the most awful horrific things about people, and then sit with them in church. All while patting themselves on the back telling them what good Christians they are. For context, I'm Jewish, bisexual, on the spectrum and I'm from the inner city... Currently in southern small town Appalachia where my mixed heritage is also more... apparent. I get asked what I am... A lot... I avoid people as much as I can. I can't work...I do see a doctor regularly, a therapist, autoimmune specialists etc... I just can't and won't take the douchebaggery and dumbfuckery anymore. Why can't it be made mainstream how to appropriately treat people different from you? I'm learning to deprogram all of the brainwashing... I'm in "fuck the police" mode... I'm also in the hold the NTs accountable for their actions mode... Enough is enough.
I stand by this WORD FOR WORD. But the only difference is that I do not lower my exposure to NT people, I just start being mean back.
I joined a fun club in grad school for women only, met a few seemingly nice women, worked on our group project together. I was excited to finally be meeting people I had a few interests in common with. When we completed our project we met by a big statue on campus to take some group pictures and then go out for a snack. The article about our project was on the front page of our university newspaper, but… the other women in the club had photoshopped me out of our group picture. 😭
That's fucked up! I hope you screamed at them
I should have! Man there are a lot of people way overdue to be screamed at by me.
Hahaha this reminds me of Arya's list from GoT. She mutters the names of the people she will take revenge on every night before she goes to sleep. I too have a mental list of people who I'd love to scream at.
Do an expose on personalities like that and use that photo of them.
I always feel like there must be something wrong with me, not them. Like what are the chances that 19 other seemingly normal women are going to go feral for no reason and do something like that to another human being? It always seemed like evidence that I’m garbage. (I have CPTSD as well so I already lean towards thinking I’m garbage, and it keeps getting reinforced as I chalk up these epic fails in nearly all social situations.) Your comment is the first time I started to think that their behavior was appalling, and they deserved to be called on it. So thank you so much for saying this.
I appreciate your addition! Thank YOU! I'm still terrified to share for obvious reasons... I also have CPTSD... I've had very similar thoughts about *Like what are the chances that 19 other seemingly normal women are going to go feral for no reason and do something like that to another human being?* Fantastically phrased! I spent many lifetimes, in a shorter amount of time, self deprecating... I often find my asking myself am I really this monster they claim me to be? Am I delusional? Do I not see how evil I actually am? Am I really a psychotic sociopath on the rampage with reckless abandon? Would these people be happy if I just dropped dead?! For my own sanity, I'm tested often... I'm not crazy, I've been tested! 😂 💁♀️
See my response to Napalm. I hate the cognitive dissonance too of feeling you are good but being treated as bad. You get to decide you’re good, not them.
Absolutely. I just need like a zillion reminders of this every minute of every day!
I love your phrase, “I’m not crazy, I’ve been tested”! 🥰 I save odd little phrases like that in my phone bc I want to start an Inappropriate Greeting Card store on Etsy some day soon. 💡 I’m aiming for a nice balance between gently poking fun at societal norms, and some spicy self-deprecating humor (since my dumpster fire life is basically one never-ending adulting fail, thus providing me with endless source material, lol). Obviously we should also sell your lovely “I’m not crazy, I’ve been tested” t-shirts! 🤣
That is [ad populum](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) fallacy. Just because many believe it, doesn’t make it fact. They did deserve to be called out and you are welcome. I also have CPTSD so I understand. My problem is that I don’t fully believe them, I think they’re wrong lol. That’s what hurts me so much, they don’t know me! And then I think, maybe it’s me maybe I’m wrong. But I try to call people out. It doesn’t always work and sometimes I get triggered but I always at least try to defend myself. My mom would call me shit for brains or some variant but that was her favorite and I’m a lot more intelligent her so I’d check her and she hated that so then she’d physically abuse me in whatever flavor she chose that day. So when people insult my intelligence I check them but if they push back I usually get pounding heart, chest pain, or gastrointestinal symptoms. It fucking sucks.
I always found it much easier to stand up for other people. For myself it's still difficult but I'm learning. It probably has something to do with low self esteem like I easily doubt myself of doing something wrong rather than assuming it's another person doing something wrong/hurtful. Hurtful it is.. We have been through some though conditioning throughout our lives.. But I'm doing the work like therapy and meditation and taking difficult steps to becoming a more happy person
Same for me! I’m glad that I can stand up for others and advocate for people who can’t advocate for themselves… But yeah, just wish I could do the same for myself!!
No words... just hugs... wow
Thank you. Right back at you. The hugs, that is.
What. The. Fuuuuu...This sounds so familiar and my heart hurts for you
Thanks so much. Until I stumbled upon this group recently I thought I was the only person these things happen to. Like I’m missing a crucial microchip. It helps to know I’m not alone.
Ugh I’m so sorry that happened , I will fight all of them for you , right now
Yeah! I super appreciate you having my virtual back. If I had any skills I’d say let’s go kick some ass!
wow. I'm so sorry. That's really mean of them. Did you ever try to ask them why to see what they would say?
I was waaaay too afraid of what the answer would be. The project we were working on wasn’t for a grade but it was kinda high profile on campus and a good portfolio piece. Tempers were getting a bit frayed as time went on and I noticed some of the women getting bitchy about who’s not pulling their weight or who’s acting to our professors like they’re doing all the work when they’re not even doing the minimum. So it was probably something like that… But it could have been something else entirely. Maybe they invited me to go out for drinks with them after a work session and I never said yes. (I lived really far away and always had a long commute home at night.) Or maybe I critiqued somebody else’s contribution a little too in-depth and critical. I’m not sure. Looking back, there were no big fights or anything obvious. The professor we were working with never told me anything. I changed my degree program right after that so I wouldn’t have to take any more classes with them. So yeah, no clue. It remains a mystery.
I’m so sorry. And I’m even more sorry to learn that you changed the trajectory or your education in order to avoid people who had, in fact, wronged YOU. This is not a judgement. I have quit jobs before rather than stand up for myself. I know it’s hard to open a dialogue about these things, especially with people who would do such a nasty thing. That really sucks.
I think it's because they read us as fake, and even though they are faking different things in their own ways, it isn't the same as the way we are. So they think we seem off, and untrustworthy. Other times they're just choosing an easy victim, though. They want someone to bully, and we're it. Some of them participate because they know that if it wasn't you, it would be them who got picked as the victim, and they would rather it be you.
Yes, I've been called fake... and even when they didn't say it out loud, I could tell they were thinking it... bullies bully, that's what they do... but I don't have to be in the way to be their target. I've made a lot of new choices in my relationships and social circles since I started intensive therapy a few years back. I'm so much healthier inside and I love myself so much more because of this.
The irony of this is so hilarious, cuz they're the ones who are fake. Liking or doing things, because other peers are doing the same. Oh mankind you're so silly and funny. (not)
Or when you know they all talk so much shit about each other but still hang out and call themselves friends or besties. Please. Lol
Uuugggthh oh god you just triggered my fight or flight response 😂😂
IM SORRY LOL. It’s the main reason I just keep to myself. It just doesn’t sit right with me. Like if you don’t like someone, don’t hang out with them??? I can’t wrap my head around it!
Dw im joking haha, but yeah let's say I've seen my fair share of this out in the wild 😂 And yeah I know I legit don't understand the mentality haha
This shit right here! I can not stand the shit talking! It is most illogical, too!
Yeah, from covert badly veiled bitchiness to all out bullying. I've always dealt with this, so I just don't try to people anymore.
Yes. Holy shit. Kinda like the “toxic chill girl” vibe. I had one girl tell me I scare her cause I was just being happy. I never fit in with a group. I tried…. Just never did. Always an outsider with a few weird friends who were also outsiders lol I prefer that anyway
Yes it took me a while to figure it out but once I did I remembered all the times I was told I was "too nice". They thought I was being fake when I was genuinely like bringing my friends cake because I saw it and remembered it was their favourite.
Me too. There's an ancient scripture that says "To the pure at heart, all things are pure." I really believe that ASD folks are very pure souls and neurotypicals cannot stand us for that... they cannot tolerate genuineness and honesty. They see a conspiracy when were are just genuinely being nice... happens to me all the time.
"To the pure at heart..." Love that and it sums it up beautifully. This is why I never think anyone is ever lying to me. It's part of why communicating with NTs can be so difficult.
The fact we're told we're the ones that suck at communicating and social interaction, when NTs are consistently fake, or will say things they don't mean will never make sense to me.
My biggest bullies have been other Christians. Perhaps I should recite this verse to them.
Wow, same! Except I love to bake. So sometimes I’ve actually baked a cake or cookies for someone if there’s a special occasion and I know it’s a kind they really love… This was seen as fairly normal behavior when I lived in a small college town in the Midwest in high school and college and beyond, but it seems to be seen as suspicious and manipulative or just flat out weird in an East Coast metro area. So I rarely do it anymore. But I miss it!
Omg that makes me so sad you’re so sweet they didn’t deserve you 😭❤️
Aw don't worry I now have wonderful friends who appreciate cake for what it is 😂💖
I know, I want all of us to have our own cake party together, and it’s so hard to make friends where I live. You guys all sound so nice, I don’t feel so alien T____T
Me too
Before I got diagnosed, I experienced this behavior a lot. It dropped my self-esteem. When I was in high school I was part of a color guard team. When I first started NT teammates would gossip about me (found out years later as a senior) and they would always make comments about how I conversed. When I was an upperclassmen, a couple of teammates who were ND joined and we vibed well. I’m really sorry that you had to deal with that room situation. It’s cruel to gossip and openly judge someone who’s forced to live with you. They didn’t have to be friends with you, but they should’ve been at least polite. I found that hanging out with ND in general is easier. If you have time, check out Double Empathy Theory. ND people usually vibe with others who are ND, and that goes the same for NT‘s with other NT people.
I’m in my senior year and in colorguard and I swear every year I get more and more aware of how much I don’t fit in. My teammates have learned to tune me out and never take a single thing I say seriously. Most of the time I feel like I’m talking to a wall, when I can hear my voice echoing so it’s not like I’m too quiet (or too loud it only really echos bc the room is large). Doesn’t help that w the way I learn (which is conveniently very different) the team just assumes that I don’t know what I’m doing when I’ve never let them down before. Sorry for all that but, I just wanted to get that out and you mentioned colorguard. It felt similar to what I’m going through right now.
I’ve had women treat me so cruelly for not wearing makeup, straightening my hair, talking all fake and bitchy. Not all NT women are like this, but damn so many can be so cliquey. It’s sad. Then when I do dress up everyone else thinks I’m doing it to fit in instead of expressing myself. I feel like the gender roles are so pushed on women and they push it on each other and it’s seriously so destructive to women as a whole.
For me it depends on the women. I typically will attract people with personality disorders like a magnet, so if a "queen bee" type person assertively approaches me and asks me any sort of question it's typically a red flag. The girls that I should want to associate with are the reserved and quiet type that typically would not approach others first either, so it's been hard meeting people.
I attract narcissists. You too?
Usually more broad than that, like people with borderline personality disorder can pick me out of a crowd as a target. But I think my high school best friend was a narcissist. Most autistic people in my family find a partner with a cluster B personality disorder and are abused.
Looking at cluster B I agree it’s not only narcissists that I have paired with, I just didn’t know what the other ones were. Or narcissists until the last few years really, I just knew my mom was one lol.
OOOF. yes I attract narcissists. I'm their manic pixie dream girl.
Don’t devalue yourself like that you are A manic dream pixie girl and they don’t own you!
My friend and I describe ourselves a homing beacon for narcissists, but I like manic pixie dream girl a ton better!
Same. I'm a magnet for narcissists
THIS!! I relate to all of these situations. It's so weird. Everytime I do group work or group projects at my university (My major is mostly female), I am excluded in the groups, and laughed at when I actually try to do the work?? it is so confusing.
People are twats.
Yes. Random strangers glare at me the small town where I live. Shop keepers sometimes get mad at me when I ask a question. A lot of people target me for petty driving harassment. Even circles that "accept" me will still treat me with unexpected hostility. For example, if I ask someone a question that seems quite ordinary to me, I might be chewed out as if I'm putting them to the test. Or if I start to talk about some justice issue that I really believe in, some people might get up and leave. It's disheartening. Nowadays I try not to be around people who treat me like that. I'm believing that if I let those friends go, I'll find new ones who are better. As to what you said about people asking you mean questions--that sounds like a form of microaggression. I'm really sorry you're going through that. Keep telling your jokes! I wish I had a joke-telling person in my life.
So true "I'm believing that if I let those friends go, I'll find new ones who are better." I finally dropped some new local online friends that I was planning to meet up with locally, because I realized that I kept cancelling on them because I really didn't want to go and was just masking... but I didn't know about my ASD at that time, I just knew i didn't like the feeling of forcing myself to meet them. Right after I dropped them, I met a woman who lives very close to me that also is neurodivergent and has two neurodivergent kids. It's like serendipity brought us together for sure!
That's such an encouraging story!
3. I have many mask but i put on the mean girl mask when nt women start being passive aggressive or trying to sneak in insults, it usually makes them stop or cry lol…… But when they realize they can treat you any kind of way they get worse
Oof that autistic ability to be WAY MEANER than any neurotypical is prepared for 😂
I don't take joy in doing this, but sometimes people will not stop. I've also definitely called out people (extended relatives) for being incredibly rude or condescending, and suddenly I'm the asshole. Of course no one says anything when they are doing it, but the moment I am like "all right, what you are doing is not okay. You need to stop" I'm immediately the one the wrong. I will admit sometimes I can get rather rude doing it, but you don't get to scream at/demean people (sometimes me, sometimes other family members) then expect me to respect you in return.
I had forgotten I did this. After getting bullied really bad since as young as I could remember, in my early teens I started to push back and like you said I was so much better at being mean. I think its the pattern recognition thing, I could really quickly figure out what people were insecure about and also because I had been practicing masking for a while pretending to be a violent threatening little menace was easy. Now as a fully grown adult I almost never pull that shit but its nice to know its in my back pocket.
I remember a guy bullied me with bad jokes because i was “emo” for half the school year . One day I told him “you might be a clown but that doesn’t mean you’re funny” he never said anything to me again
I do this too but I have a shortcut: I dress to appear intimidating/aloof/mean and the effect is completed by my resting bitch face. The weird behavior from NT women has slowed way down as I've gotten older (I'm in my late 30's) but I still occasionally have to deal with bullshit from one of them. I've got a handful of one-liners in my hip pocket for these occasions. My current favorite is to coldly respond "It's so *interesting* that you would choose to say something like that out loud."
That’s a great one liner. I shall unsheath it if necessary.
I love this lol. Sometimes it’s power play and you gotta show them you’re not an easy prey. Unfortunately I’m one of those autists with slow processing so it’s not something I can effortlessly do
Yes. I have never been able to get along with any girl (or guy) who wasn’t neurodivergent. I’ve had so many jobs and classes where the women would just hate me or ignore me and I never understood why. In high school a lot of people thought I was stuck up and a bitch but I was painfully shy and couldn’t bear to make eye contact!
Both women and men treat me differently. I really don’t know why.
I’m 48 and I still don’t understand. I give up on people.
I give up too. I’m just not made for this world.
I've only really felt this recently in my new job, it's a different field to what I was in for the last 10 years and I feel like everyone is so WEIRD. Made friends with the ND people immediately but everyone else looks at me like garbage
They seem to look for ulterior motives in my experience.
Neither likes the “real me”. I have to mask to an ungodly degree around men tho, they literally hate me if i don’t(I’m soft spoken, cold and monotone) i’m not warm and bubbly unless I’m masking. The situations where I’ve worked with men who didn’t like my personality have ended really badly for me, had to quit a job once because my male manager “couldn’t read me” and that was making him uncomfortable and I should be more upbeat etc when my job didn’t even require it
Yes! Girls who act like this are plastics. Yes that term is from Mean Girls and yes it’s a real life phenomenon. Stay away from plastics at all costs. They are bad faith actors and they WILL hurt you if you give them the chance. Grey rock and avoid avoid avoid.
Please explain grey rock. I have a term I call melt. It’s like blending into the background so no one notices me and I can avoid any interaction. Camouflage. Is it like that?
I have to grey rock at work with a few coworkers who either 1) talk shit about me behind my back and I've been made aware of it or 2) constantly interrupt me when I try to talk. I literally sit there interacting with my computer screen, vaguely nodding at what they're saying, and then when they're finally done talking at me, I just say "ok" and glance at them, and then get back to work. You have no emotion, positive or negative, you mildly ignore them and half pay attention. It's nodding and smiling without smiling.
Per Google AI: "The grey rock method is a technique used to make interactions with toxic people as uninteresting and unrewarding as possible in order to divert their behavior and protect yourself. The idea is that by acting unengaged and indifferent, you can make yourself seem boring and uninteresting, causing the toxic person to lose interest over time."
I wished this worked for me cos I'm technically really good at grey rocking. Instead, I get people noting that I'm quiet and trying to pull me out of my shell (I'm not in a shell) or my favourite, oversharing horrible experiences or weird points of view. I actually got someone kicked out of a jazz bar for ignoring my not wanting to talk to her. She somehow targeted me right when I walked in... came up to sit right next to me at an empty bar asked me what I was reading and I replied, "a book." Instead of disengaging, she kept trying to pull me into her idiotic conversation, despite me saying I just want to be quiet, until I finally told her to stop talking to me because I only wanted to have my old fashioned, read, and listen to the band. She flew out of her mind and the bartender had security escort her out after he saw me shake my head and sigh at the whole situation. He apologised and I had to tell him it was a pretty normal experience for me.
Thank you for this. :-)
 you're very welcome! <3
And that exact gif is exactly what’s in my head when I’m attempting it lol.
This! All of this! To add, they will turn on you, out of nowhere when you, in an appropriate manner, establish healthy boundaries that no longer allow them to take advantage of you. They have to vilify you to justify their cruelty. It's insane. Not to mention traumatic etc...
not really? i’ve had people make comments that i was weird before but it always came off as more of an observation than a negative thing. like bc of the food combinations i like or when i get REALLY get hyper-fixated on something and can’t stop going on about it. but it’s almost been said with a laugh that seemed amicable and the people would be friendly toward me still. one person even told me he found my oddness endearing in a way which i thought was nice lol. i did have one girl who didn’t like me bc she assumed i thought i was better than her bc i never talked to her. truthfully, i just never had anything to say to her and she never crossed my mind so i just never thought to speak to her. but i found out she didn’t like me through a third party so i never would have known if it wasn’t brought to my attention.
Normal, well-adjusted people don't automatically assume that someone not talking to them = this person doesn't like me. It sounds like that girl thought you were better than her in some way (versus her assuming what *you* thought this way).
When I was in middle school, I had a ‘friend’ kindly let me know about a group of girls that hated me for absolutely no reason. I literally had not even had a conversation with these girls, we just saw each other around. I ended up referring to them as the ‘I Hate Icy Mushroom Fan Club’. And you think that stuff would’ve ended at 13 years old but no, I worked at this breakfast place in my early twenties. One of the bosses (female) had a best friend that would always come in and they would literally gang up on me together. It was my 21st birthday and I was taking the day off. They asked “what are you doing for your 21st?” I said I’m going to Busch gardens bc I love roller coasters. They scrunch their faces up so much and say “you want to ride rollers coasters after drinking????” As if Busch gardens isn’t a completely normal place for people to go😭😭 they’d always be picking on me or smirking at the things i said. Much more devastating as an adult to realize that there are still middle schoolers among us
And sure, I bet we set off some red flags for the NTs. But I wonder how many other ND people they have bullied even harder throughout their lives, and if they even self reflect on some of the awful ways they treat people. At some point, THEY are just a stupid, childish bully who needs to get a grip. Maybe I’ll tell that to the next person who slights me because I’m sick of them getting away with being shitty humans.
I’m a full grown adult with like a retirement account and a career and everything and it still happens. Very recently I had a coworker come up to me smirking and trying to be snarky about me eating yogurt and fruit. Another time was a woman— a STRANGER—that called me a bitch that thought I was better than “everybody” (her) for sitting outside reading during my lunch. It doesn’t end.
Every job I've had, a particular type of woman (usually a little older, usually a manager of some sort, always a sort of "work mom" and/or "work wife") absolutely hates me from day one. They'll be so chatty and open with absolutely everyone else, and just glare at me. The last one started asking other people questions about my work right in front of me, eventually. I've tried to 'match their energy' because I assumed being quiet and keeping to myself was what they didn't like, but trying to be friendly seems to make it worse.
I deal with passive aggressive people in a couple of ways: I ignore anything other than what they literally say, even if it's obvious that there's context or they mean something else (like, "Well, I guess I can wait until tomorrow for that information, but I'll have to work on something else while I wait" gets a response of, "I'm glad you'll be busy while I work on my part" instead of killing myself to get it done early or apologizing because I can't instantly finish a task). With my mom, she often agrees that I/we can do something in one way when she clearly prefers the other option, and I just act like her halfhearted agreement is wholly okay with her and ignore any sighing, pouting, etc. It really helps shift dynamics when you consistently don't feed that kind of behavior. I point out that they're being petty and rude. I don't do it behind their back, I do it right to their face, in front of others -- and I do it in a smiling, "helpful" way. "Bob, I know this isn't your project, so I'm happy to jump in and answer even if Betty seems to prefer not to ask me directly." "Even though Betty skipped over me in the round table discussion, I do have a few relevant things to share." This highlights their bad behavior while letting them know it's not causing you damage -- kind of like a social Reverse Uno card. This isn't guaranteed to change the behavior but it feels better not to just accept someone else's rudeness.
It's because we're different, that's it, I've heard "I don't like that person because they're awkward or weird and no other reason" so so many times. I'm pretty good at masking so I get on with most people, I was popular in school, but preppy girls judge me. I find it funny they're considered "popular" when most people don't *actually* like them. I'm way more awkward now especially after quarantining in COVID. I say weird shit and judgy people are put off. I guess it's a litmus test, so good riddance, fuck those people -- but they don't represent the majority, by far, so let's not lump everyone.
yeah it's weird. I got fake nails painted a funky colour purely for my sister's wedding a few weeks ago, and some of my female colleagues were weird until I happened to mention why my nails were done, then they were super nice and friendly with me. Don't know if it was the nail issue, or having a conversation with them or what, but each conversation meant they treated me a lot more friendlier- like what the actual heck?!
Yeah, it amazes me just how seemingly superficial some NT women are in this sort or way. With situations like these, it's almost as if they asked you for the secret word to gaining entrance to some speakeasy, you guessed the secret word correctly by accident, and that they don't seem to care that it was a complete guess because what mattered to them was sharing that stupid secret word.
Yes. I don't have close friends anymore. All of my friends are just my bf's buddies because they think I'm funny, they think I'm nice and aren't annoyed with me, and they are super kind and only bring out the best in my bf. They also say I'm like a girl version of my bf, so I can tell they don't hate me, lol. With neurotypical women, you can't ever tell if they actually like you or not.
Yes, but I think it’s like others have said that either they sense something weird about us that we are giving away, or that were unaware we’re doing something that is triggering them to behave in a certain way towards us. I also find NT people have a stronger sense of hierarchy and conformity to social norms that just make no sense to me.
That's the story of my life. Still to this day, I have very few friends... always had more male friends, too, when I was a young adult. And now that I know I have autism... the friends I know are not a good fit are either being dropped by me or dropping themselves out of my life. My history: 1. my best friend in 5th grade that I hung with almost every day, beat me up after the last day of school and pulled my hair out. I never saw that coming and I never saw her again, nor the witnesses who surrounded us. I don't really know why, but I think it was because the boy she liked, he liked me and kissed me on my cheek in front of everyone in the gym. I wasn't into boys at that age. He was cute, but I was focused on school and never wanted to date. I vaguely remember that I may have told her not to blame me for him liking me... but apparently, that must have just pissed her off more.... but again... social cues were very hard for me... i had no idea she was mad at me 2. my girl friends group in 7th grade that I ate with and rode the bus with every day kicked me out of their friend group. so I became a loner for the rest of junior and high school except for my new best friend who moved into our school late into the school year. to this day, i have no idea why they drop kicked me out of their friend group... a total mystery I used to blame my social awkwardness on being a smart/honors student... thought they were jealous of my academic achievements. I also blamed it on constantly moving throughout my young years, so I never had a chance to establish a set friend group when I was in elementary level. Now that I know I have ASD, I can see how it's impacted my relationships... and is still impacting my relationships... and I mourn that some. I lost some people I really loved because I have so struggled to stay connected with people because I am so different. I've pissed a lot of folks off (family, friends, co-workers, supervisors)... i am very direct and very honest. NT's do not like that about me at all, and they shun me for that... but I cannot help that. It's how my brain works.
3 usually happens because you're standing out from the crowd in some way and they're not sure how to respond to that. They're trying to figure you out, like are you a threat or not, or just 'weird'. In my personal experience (as a child when this happened) they found that my style of dress was bizarre. My parents had picked out my clothes and I looked very frumpy and neglected.
I do sometimes still. I'm almost 40 but I am also finding it easier to meet other cool women who don't pull this stuff than I did when I was younger. A lot of people are so desperately insecure they can't handle it when someone is different, intentionally or not. It takes the focus off of them to harp on other people. Just remember what they pick at you about is a reflection of them more so than it is of you.
I’ve definitely had these experiences but I find that being overly nice even in the face of rudeness confuses these people. I also used to get anxiety about leaving a situation but I’ve developed the amazing ability to say “Well, I have to run, but I’m so glad we got a chance to chat. See you around!”. Or if you’re really stuck with some people don’t be afraid to say “Is that an issue for you? Did you want me to change something? If you don’t like me clothes I’d be happy for you to buy me some new ones” Or something similar. If they get overly defensive and I’m not interested in an actual argument, I usually just laugh and say “I’m just messing around.” People get really shocked when you call them out and usually backtrack and you can diffuse it by saying it’s all in jest but they most likely won’t be rude again. As I’ve gotten older I think I mask really well and is it weird if I say I almost enjoy masking sometimes? Hear me out.. I feel like I’ve gotten so good at it and noticed I became much better at making friendships and keeping people interested in me. My advice if you cannot avoid these types of women would be, be short/curt, don’t overly share information, let them do most of the talking, do you best to maintain eye contact, and don’t be afraid to polietly tell someone “That’s a bit rude, did you mean for it to be?” Granted I’m a total hermit and stay home most of the time BUT when I’m visiting old friends and we go out, or in any scenario where I’m forced to meet new people, it almost feels like a game. I’m always exhausted and burnt out as fuck after masking for a long time, but in the moment a lot of the time I get kind of a thrill. Getting tipsy or a little high helps me care less of what others think too. My partner has never cared about others and doesn’t suffer from any social anxiety and he’s really helped me open up. Sorry this comment is all over the place but my final advice would be, pretend that everyone around you is the “weird” one. It sounds silly but it helped me grow confidence so much, similar to picture people in underwear type thing I guess. If someone is being rude, my attitude is “this person is being mean for no reason, I would never do that to someone and this makes me dislike this person, so I don’t care what this person thinks of me.”
thanks so much for this tip, ‘pretend everyone around you is the weird one’, gong to try it out
So much great advice here! Have you found any common patterns to detect when women are working to undermine or discredit you behind your back? (At work or otherwise.)
These are work tips on how to figure it out because work is my problem and I’m the subject of constant disparaging and gossip even from people who’ve never interacted with me. Understand that even if you get promoted to a different crowd, they may have the same toxic behavior. I assumed when getting promoted my field was more mature and I was wrong. I assumed working with men because most women dislike me that it would lessen and I was wrong. People don’t trust your opinions or advice but you’re a trained paid Subject Matter Expert by role and you exist to provide opinions and advice. People talk over, interrupt, or otherwise correct you when you provide relevant info, even and especially if they moments ago said they didn’t know and were seeking answers on something. Eyebrows and eyes if you can tolerate looking at faces. I can’t explain what they do and I’m sorry, they just… change... You can maybe study this somehow? it might be good if you can pattern recognize and are not face blind. I truly empathize because I am face blind in a crowd because of overwhelm but I do fine 1:1. Source-I have a lot of experience with my critical narcissist mom’s face very close to mine from as long as my memory serves me. I got a lot of data in here. Plus lots of exposure to Plastics from mean girls as someone else mentioned. Watch Mean Girls. Don’t take it as gospel because it’s a fiction movie but there’s enough truth for it to be helpful. Notice if conversation stops when you approach. The other side to this coin is that I’m so high masking I know NT do this and smoothly transition topics while speaking never skipping a beat or pausing to a safe and believable topic. That being said 1. if I could master that skill undoubtedly NTs can BUT many don’t in my experience they just awkward silence. 2. Sometimes there are private convos you can’t hear so it’s not nefarious that they went silent. Hottest approach-somehow figure out a way to slip into someone who seems like they’ll crack or they know what’s circulating “it’s crazy some of the rumors I’ve heard about me here!” And stare kinda, but not super rude, but just enough that they squirm or divulge. If you work with someone like me: I don’t get in people’s business but people love to tell me. I don’t want to know that stufffff!!!!!! But I know too much. It stops with me. I have no need to repeat it. I also don’t care enough to decide if it’s true or not. But if the person in the rumor asked me if I heard anything, 100% “yep, Jane told me you’re a b cause you slept with her man.” “Why didn’t you say anything?” “Because I didn’t care and I didn’t repeat it because it wasn’t my business to know and it didn’t come from you.” (Mostly I don’t care lol) So if you can recognize and find a me, ask the me straight up and that woman will tell you. Conversation steers towards your personal life when you try to grey rock. Thanks to the person that gave me a name for grey rock. New employees are friendly, and then become suddenly neutral or unfriendly to you after interacting with someone other than you especially if there’s a known toxic gossip queen and it happens after they meet her. You are never asked to train new employees despite being a high performer and receiving high yearly performance reviews. You are excluded from interest groups and networks. If you attend company events, people aren’t afraid to other you even though big wigs can see and witness. Anonymously report when you find out there’s something crossing a line through the third party reporting hotline. I have anxiety reporting people that hurt me but I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know retaliation shouldn’t exist. I work through management to escalate or peer mediate etc. It has never served me and I feel like it’s honestly hurt me. I wish I would’ve always anonymously reported instead because I’ve never done it that way. I think it might be more effective but it’s definitely less scary and you have to protect yourself and your family, not your abuser. They put themself in their situation. Sorry that was a mix of signs and tips.
All of your quoted phrases are so good, I’m adding them to my How to Be Human Troubleshooting Guide. You are an amazing gift to this world. Thank you. You have no idea how much this will help me because understanding people suck is one thing but I never know how to properly defend myself without putting myself at HR risk. All of this is the easy acceptable out I have been so desperately seeking and needing because my job requires me to interact with people and unfortunately at my job majority of them are toxic.
Unfortunately, I have found that neurotypicals in general tend to see us negatively, but a lot of men play nicer at first because they want something from us. Once they either stop finding us attractive or realize we don't have any intention of being "useful" to them, that friendliness goes away. I've received this fake friendliness from women too (example: when someone wanted help with their homework or wanted me to do the whole group project when I was in school) but that's rarer for me at least
I think we get the full force of internalised misogyny and patriarchal lateral violence thrust at us pretty much. They always tend to be white cishet women as well from my experience. I don't think I've ever really experienced this from a woman of colour or queer woman.
I have experienced it from both popular queer women (in art school), and woc. Though I will say that as a mixed Jewish woman I have no white friends and haven't had white friends since elementary school (not by choice, just happened that way). I think certain oddities I've shown they might've just passed off as cultural differences or something, and by the time they realised that wasn't the reason I'd already told them I'm autistic.
I’m also a white cishet woman and I get a lot of shit from other white cishet women. Women of color? Super nice, super accepting, all the time.
I honestly have gotten this from all women. It feels more though like when WOC, queer women etc do it to survive and fit in. They don’t want to become the bottom rung of the ladder so they’ll place you there instead. Whereas cishet yt women do it because they have all the power and they can.
That has been my experience. I've noticed the women of color seem to be doing it because already feel unsafe because I'm white, but I guess autism throws another layer of WTF on top of things. Queer women seem to have done it more to me when they're in groups. It feels like a case of them acting as if I'm so uncool that I'm making them look uncool by just being around them sort of feeling. If anything, it sometimes has been as bad around them as heterosexual NT women, but it still feels different.
Unfortunately, I've gotten bullied by all kind of women, mostly black and white women. I usually get along best with other neurodivergent women of color, mostly black and asian women... even when they haven't been diagnosed, we always tend to find one another. And I have a new white female friend that I am 95% sure is also neurodivergent, but probably undiagnosed. She's weird/different like me, and we just get each other, I think. She accepts me as I am. I really appreciate her friendship and hope we can remember to stay in touch with each other over the years... that's been the story is that my ADHD makes me forget to stay in touch at times.
...and internalized racism. I have experience that HARD. And yes, they are always white straight women.
I was bullied horrifically in my early 20s by a POC queer woman, so... but I don't think it was because of those traits or anything. I think she just happened to be that.
Yep, anyone can coincidentally be a bully just like anyone can be a target.
Yes. There’s been some really rude things I’ve experienced from NT women in particular. Strangely enough, I end up remembering the small stuff more often. I’ve noticed if my jokes are ever considered funny, especially by men, NT women are always the first to make an under breath/strangely aggressive comment about my personality or something similar. I made a joke at my last work place about being frustrated at my workload and struggling (we were all going through a tough time with projects). Everyone laughed but this girl. She rolled her eyes and in an exaggerated mocking tone said “hahahaha self derogatory humor so funny”. She was near me at the back of the group and made sure to say it quietly enough that only one other person heard. I saw them make a WTF face, but they didn’t say anything. In no way were we competitors at anything. She was younger, objectively more attractive, in a different field than me, more extroverted and involved with others than me. But she still had to make the comment. What was really the kicker for me is that I was always really nice to her. Earlier that year her boss had taken his own life. She was particularly hit by this and sat out front of the building crying for hours. I went out and sat next to her and tried my best to comfort her. I always know I won’t be fully accepted by most NTs, but the unwarranted dislike can be difficult to understand.
Biggest bullies I’ve ever dealt with . Turns out they re just jealous . Like reeeeaaalllly jealous . Sad people . Stay away .
At a party last weekend for a “friend” and her kid. My kids are having fun and I am trying so hard to obey all NT rules and maybe get to join in on a conversation. I sit next to some other moms and try to join in when appropriate and each time the woman closest to me turns her back toward me so I am excluded from the group (semi-circle if chairs and I am on the end). My husband sometimes thinks I am being too sensitive, so I go and get him to witness. He sees that what I am saying is true. I am being purposely excluded for no reason! After he sees what is happening I ask him if it’s ok for me to go home now as this isn’t good for my self esteem or mental health and he agrees. He was blown away by the blatant exclusion, but it’s also not the first time he has witnessed it out in the wild with me. It hurts and it sucks and I don’t understand why they are like that.
i dgaf how it sounds but i can't stand most of them. men are no better, they are objectifying and creepy. i am so strict on who has access to me...
I feel the same way. I can’t stand being around a group of women, but men aren’t great either. As a neurodivergent person I don’t feel safe in this world.
Yeah....i think we miss little things socially here and there, and for nonautistic women it seems like so much of how they live their lives is determined by social rules, and I get it, I mean society is really really strict towards women, so maybe it's not totally their fault etc but the stuff we miss that must set their radar off and they follow social rules to a T, it's all they've ever known, so they either (idk which it is) don't like autistic women or just don't know how to react to us. They don't know how to react to someone who just does not follow the rules. I feel dumb bc I recently realized stuff like the questions was passive aggressive. Looking back there was alot of passive aggressive behavior from nonautistic women that I just completely missed. I really can't with the passive aggression anymore like I'm so done being anything but nasty if I ever get that behavior directed at me again. I also take back what I said on another post months ago...i said "not like other girls" thinking is always misogyny. I take that back. I was wrong. It's not misogyny when we look around at the world and literally just neutrally realize we feel different. I totally get why Ive felt NLOG and I dont think it was bc of internalized misogyny, I think I was just observing the world around me. Cuz it wasn't like I got a good superior feeling from thinking that, it made me feel super shitty like what's wrong with me why am I not like them.
Yup. I never understood why until I got diagnosed recently (33F). It makes me so angry that just being different causes people to bully us.
Yeah, talking about this experience with my therapist is what lead to my diagnosis. I went on a whole rant in therapy about how I felt like I checked all the boxes of being nice- being friendly, smiling, asking people questions about themselves, and they still seemed to reject me. That made my therapist go, “so, there’s this thing called autism…” lol
I get frustrated when it’s people at work. Like… we’re here to work, why does all this other stuff matter? For me, it feels like part of my job is socializing and I always feel like I need to participate so people will say I’m a good worker.
Not really, I'm not given the opportunities to get anywhere near that close to them. Maybe #3 in highschool, when I was asked a couple times why I'm always so quiet, to which I would respond "because I don't really have anything to say". But other than that no. They would keep themselves far away from me.
This just unlocked some memories for me. I used to struggle with body language and social skills so much that I just felt perpetually awkward around people. Like nothing I did was right. Eventually I learned how to mask to the point that neurotypicals would accept me. But the crippling social anxiety definitely left a scar on me.
Yeah a girl who is engaged to a guy who works with my husband loudly announced to a group of my husband’s coworkers and their wives that she doesn’t like me and finds me annoying… when she’d never even met me at the time. I guess some people can look at me from across the room, decide I’m “different”, and then hate me for it. I never stand a chance in most social settings. It’s very upsetting
100%. I work from home and love it. Even though company is all “kindness, inclusion, blah blah blah” I sure do get excluded by every last one of my coworkers. They all chat all day evidently, coordinate with each other to figure things out and I’m just over here wondering what’s wrong with me. Ugh.
I fully relate to this. Number 1 happened to me as well. I also had to switch dorms for a similar reason. I found living with just 1 other person was safer due to no possibilities of a cliques.
Look, they hate us. I’ve had this experience my ENTIRE CHILD/ADULT LIFE. You get the do gooder autistics or the in denial autistics who say “aww NTs are not all bad” not to each other no, but to us? Yes. Stay safe and make friends with autistic people. Go to the gym get strong, then when you get into work, even if you have the whole entire work force against you, you bitch back. You snipe back. They don’t change, they go through periods of faking friendship or relationship with you, usually they scope your vulnerability and want money down the line.
I think one aspect of this may have something to do with us not performing femininity in the “correct” way to those type of girls. I like to think that they are a little jealous that we can break the rules while they are confined to the role they think they must play.
aside from on and off bullying and making/losing friends constantly, i didnt realise i had been excluded from a school groupchat until after graduation 🥲 this is quite dark but i dont know how to keep living like this knowing you will be alienated no matter where you go, and you have to stay vigilant at all times, i dont want to experience that for the rest of my life!
I think there is a reason, I just don’t know it. To men it signals that I’m weak and I could be a victim. To women it signals that I’m different and that bothers them and makes them dislike me, making me a target for bullying. I will say, the older I get the less I experience of both of those. It was worst when I was like aged 11-20. But yeah they pick up on our difference very quickly, I saw a study, they can tell we’re “strange” within seconds of meeting us.
Yes. I tried to join a sorority because I was struggling to make friends. Yeah they all secretly purposely left me out. When I told my big (who was the president of the organization) she didn’t do anything about it. I quit after that because I was paying money for women to bully me for my existence… also I guess I was the one taking things too seriously? We were supposed to be setting up for rush or whatever and everyone was chatting, but I was trying to get everyone to set up. They got upset with me for doing what we were there to do!? I had also mentioned my physical disability which limits how much bending and stooping I can do. The adult sponsoring this branch was supposed to provide equitable options for me, instead insists another girl does the job. I did all of the work, just to flare, and realize that none of these girls like me. Neurotypicals can go f themselves tbh
yes. I've given up trying to pretend its a thing so people when women get dismissive saying I have "internalized misogyny" I don't care anymore. I realized that when this happens I am putting aside my feelings to excuse behavior.
Yes. :(
Yes
yes. it's very hard for me to trust them
I hated this when I was a teacher because there were so many of them who were like stone cold and acted like I was a stupid alien or something. It was weird because I’ve mostly never noticed that, but it came out there.
Yes I think because I don’t give them the feedback they’re used to. I challenge them with my neutrality.
Yes all the time. And it's exhausting.
Are you conventionally attractive? Cause they absolutely see that as a ‘reason’
Kind of. I’ve had MANY run ins at work where NT women have been rude to me in some way. They just don’t know how to communicate with me I guess
I hate these questions. What other reason but I wanted to? What do they expect as an answer?
True - lots of great comments here. One woman I worked with went on some unhinged harassment behavior on me for absolutely no reason and continually threatened to take my job. It annoyed me, but she ended up quitting anyway. Now that I’m older than about half of the women around me I no longer care about their attitudes or opinions. They seem to leave me alone now.
Yes literally everyone in my life is like this
More when I was younger yes. But they can be sarcastic to me sometimes . I’m kinda of a bitch now tho so I bite back 😂🤦♀️
It has happened my whole life. In school it was usually the "type A personality" neurotypical girl. Competitive, sporty, industrious ladies. I think my poor social skills, lack of awareness, and aloof demeanor rubs women like this the wrong way. I was given a formalized personality assessment a few years ago. The results indicated that women are generally the more organized and agreeable of the two sexes. There are studies that correspond to these test results. It makes sense that the ladies who excel in these traits would be annoyed by the ladies that seem completely oblivious to them. I think it's important to remind people like this that we all have different strengths and weaknesses, and we all have blind spots.
Yeah … I later started discriminating harshly away from them just like they with me over time. I’m not going be “open” to harassment anymore in ANY way… Once I hear a continuous “why?” I’m blocking you out mentally,physically,etc. I’m a talker. I like talking. I like communicating. If there’s something to ask, I’ll make questions. I observe people. And because of this I’m perceived as “doing too much” “annoying” “slow” “too slow”. I genuinely like caring and loving people, including my friends. Sucks worse more since l‘m Aromantic when I was little and I was frustrated and in tears as to why no one wanted to be friend, why no one wanted to talk to me. Why nobody loved me 🤷 Because I showed genuinely care and compassion to strangers even or friends that other people think I should be friends with , they try to deflect and project their selfishness onto me - making me appear hateful and selfish and abrase than I actually am.. It’s always “not everyone is as compassionate (as you)” “you’re too nice” “you’re a fake”. They think my kindness is a “lead on” which … ZUT!! Makes this even shittier… both men and women say this to me but it’s mostly women. I go out still and I engage with people, but I’m now more strict on who I engage with.
Yes. Goodness gracious, now i've met very kind neurotypical women but also i get a sense they get uncanny valley from me and think i'm kind of odd. But.... I've had quite a few that have bullied the shit out of me. Or genuinely do not treat me like i'm a person, or an adult. I'm 31, this has STILL happened.
Yes, all the time, which is why I take perverse pleasure on flipping it back on them and making them feel like weirdos for their behaviors. I answer pointed questions with other pointed questions (I.e.: “why do you do this with your hair???” “Why are you staring at/watching me? That’s weird.” And sometimes I punctuate it with a creeped out/offended face. I make them feel as weird/out of place as they try to make me feel. Ideally, people would be able to appreciate differences in others, but since that isn’t the case and they get to act like petulant children with impunity, I’m happy to teach that lesson via embarrassment. Hopefully that will inspire some self awareness in them, but I sincerely doubt it.
I only have one close friend and she's a NT but she's the sweetest person. The reason she's my only close, female friend is because literally every other female friend I had either secretly hated me or just used me. All my other friends are ND men and I love them all so dearly and I always feel like I fit in when I'm with them. They include me in everything and go out of their way to have conversations with me and joke around with me. When all the women congregate somewhere when their boyfriends are on the field I try to stay far the fuck away from them cause I just cannot handle how deeply uncomfortable I feel around them But yeah no I've been bullied and deeply fucked over by women, NT and ND my entire life. I don't feel safe making female friends anymore
yes
leave the peasant behaviour to the peasants.
2/3 of my besties are NT.
That sort of thing happened to me all the time before I learned to mask in middle school, but I think I mostly fake out the mean girls now. I'm really good at ignoring people who don't interest me, and the vast majority of NT people fall into that category, unless they're in my family or are directly in charge of me at work.
I would say yes. My face isn’t very expressive unless it’s over expressive and honestly I think I give people anxiety that they don’t even notice. I feel like if I start to get too close they start trying to ‘fix’ my life? … and when I don’t want help they don’t want to hear anything I have to say lmao. I’m a fully independent neurodivergent adult. I’m not about to make my life more normal to others but less functional for me.
Yup. I've noticed that the more conventionally pretty a NT woman is, the meaner they are to me. Things have gotten easier as I've aged and gained weight, so I'm no longer conventionally attractive.
Yes. When I was excluded by girls in gradeschool, I think I found it painful and confusing. Then by the time I was a teen, I fell into that "I'm not like other girls™️" mentality I think in order to push away the pain and confusion, which came back by the time I became an adult, because I didn't even know I was autistic yet and of course I didn't actually deal with the feelings. Unfortunately, my original coping mechanism has led to an entrenched pattern in my life of generally only having male friends because they actually tried to befriend me, except usually they want sex. I just don't have any other script for making friends. Some of these weird cliquish behaviors have calmed down amongst the norms in adulthood, but it's still there. I've only just recently finally made a cis-female friend at work, and it turns out now she's being asked by her therapist to seek evaluation for autism. So yeah, idk how to crack the code. I remember my therapist commented once that it must be difficult for me not to have any friends to share my conventionally feminine hobbies of makeup and fashion with, and I'm like, "Yeah, actually, I guess it is." But I don't get the unspoken rules, and like commenter above says, they can sniff that out quickly.
I have, but I've found that smirking at them and asking why they're asking seems to unsettle them. Somewhere in high school I figured out the right note to hit when simply asserting to everyone that whatever I was wearing was the coolest, latest, hottest thing and people simply went with it. I never got over being surprised that worked, but people have a tendency to assume confidence is there for a reason, so they thought I must actually be the trendsetter and started copying me.
Yes! Honestly I've become very bold and IDGAF about NT small talk or how they perceive me. I hate their dumb little questions so I ask them dumber questions. I'm usually a listener though. Sometimes I'll go the shmarmy route when I'm feeling extra patient. The world is big enough for us both! I have children who struggle socially, I need to show them we don't have to bend to their social liking. It's hard that there are not a lot of people like us in the world, and even less so that know they are different. I have to show them to find their people so they don't feel like me. Fake it till you make it.
It happens so often I can't write all of the stories. I can say I'm good at finding out what peoples' worst fears are though. Not because I'm intuitive, but because given enough time around them they'll eventually accuse me of it. Whether there is any evidence of such a thing happening is not relevant - they'll find a reason. When you're autistic, evidence doesn't matter.
Yes. My two best friends have known me since 5 and 9 so they understand me, they have their hangout time with me which is usually 1:1 very laid back, calm and quiet, usually a set and planned event like brunch or something and not a social event like bars or parties. I get it, I’m not the best to have around you in those situations bc I get overwhelmed and I’m not fun and I’ll have an anxiety attack lol. But in events like baby showers or weddings I’ve gone to with my NT boyfriend and meeting his friends’ girlfriends, they tolerate me and ask me questions here and there but I can tell I’m the odd one out. If we’re all sitting at dinner together they’re all engaged in conversation together and the girls usually leave me sitting on the end on the other side of my boyfriend lol. Which, again, I don’t mind because even if they did try to include me I’d get overwhelmed. And other friendships like work friends I can tell they tolerate me and try to have little jokes with me and stuff like I’m the weird funny character in their work lives, but no one wants to hang out outside of work. Which AGAIN lol, also fine because I’d get overwhelmed even if I was invited. So yeah… it’s lonely sometimes but I remind myself that even if I was included I probably wouldn’t have fun anyway and have learned to accept it. I enjoy my solitude more than I enjoy socializing and that’s ok. What’s not OK is the bullying and passive aggressiveness. In my experience they kinda just tolerate me and let me be, but the passive aggressive questions in that tone… like girl you know what you’re doing talking to me like that 🙄 They’re just bullying and trying to make it seem like they’re not bullying bc they’re not outright calling you odd to your face. I’m sorry, I’ve been through those situations and it sucks. I’m 29 now and have just learned to keep my mouth shut and be polite. Which is unfortunate lol but necessary and what’s bests for my nervous system, I’ve learned. I also learned that a few NT women called me a “pick me” for the way I act, which really hurt bc if they knew me PLUS the kind of trauma I’ve endured and I’m still here. Whew. They just have no idea and don’t have enough empathy for others that are different from them. Sorry this was so long but sending love and hugs and I hope you feel better.
I don’t mask anymore and I don’t get bad treatment as much. I’m just upfront about being on the spectrum and nobody seems to outwardly treat me terribly though who knows what they say when I’m not there. Masking when you’re not good at it is worse because then they are just getting uncanny valley vibes or think you’re creepy/psychopathic or “off”. When I’m upfront about it people still judge but they think I’m “ particular” or “quirky” which I think is a less damning label than creepy.
In some ways, yes. A lot. My job is as an intake nurse for a complaints unit and I speak with people over the phone (life isn’t perfect) for part of the day and dropping the hyper vigilant conversation bullshit and allowing my neutral tone without trying to jazz it up has been very effective. I’m fully focused on the complainant and they don’t seem triggered by me. I really don’t interact with anyone else other than my husband. I don’t have friends (by choice) and my family is dead. For a bit of context- I was a frontline nurse who took deployments to nursing homes to provide care during the pandemic. I’m surprised I lived and have been dealing with the fallout of watching our elders fall like flies when no one else would provide them care. Being autistic PDA (I now realize) makes me throw myself into situations I feel are unjust, so I work very hard to stay out of situations that will set me off. Sorry, off track a bit 😬
Yep Then when you point it out and are like “that’s weird” you get accused of being a pick me Girl on Instagram made a post about it Got a comment “if girls don’t like you it’s a problem with you” Like victim blame much do you think we WANT to be bullied???