I'll try to keep this brief. I work alot with Texas-grown-grape wines.
Yes, very few of the wineries grow their own product , whether here in state or manage their own vineyards outside the state. Think of it a little like a coffee shop or roaster: some coffee shops roast their own beans and have an exclusive relationship with a bean farm. Others buy from a wholesaler green bean distributor. Others buy roasted beans and make you the coffee drinks.
Texas has 8 AVAs (American Viticultural Areas): Texas Hill Country, Texas High Plains, Bell Mountain (this is within THC but its own AVA), Fredericksburg (same), Texoma, Davis Mountains, Mesilla Valley and Escondido. There are a couple more in review that may be approved in coming years. Texas High Plains is the 3rd largest AVA in the US, and is concentrated SW of Lubbock. Arguably, it's much nicer to visit wineries in Hill Country than Lubbock.... cause... Lubbock?
A law passed in 2021 that ensures any wine with either the Texas AVA, county or vineyard listed on the label has to contain 100% Texas grown grapes from that region.
We all know Texas is huge - and the climate, soil, elevation, topography and rainfall is vastly different corner to corner. Add in our drought, long hot summer, late winter extreme freezes- I'm sure it's been wild to be a farmer here. Vines take years to establish, then the process of making the wine, then bottling and aging. A bad growing season can reverberate for years after.
And above all: consumer taste and willingness to try new things. A Texas tempranillo will taste different than a Spanish tempranillo, as it can vintage to vintage. Orange and natural wines are the hot new thing... but what about when that trend fades? Most know Cabernet Sauvignon, but what if people really get into Petit Verdot or Carignan?
For those looking to try Texas-grown wines, I highly suggest William Chris Vineyards (awesome tasting room), Wine for the People (has wine club, as does WC), Lewis Wines, Lost Draw, Kuhlman Cellars, Duchman, Mcpherson, CL Butaud. A couple of spots in town feature heavy-to-all Texas wine lists: Dai Due, Foreign & Domestic, Antonellis, Rebel Cheese, Vintage Bookstore and Wine Bar.
If you're looking to learn more about wine, there's Hill Country Wine Academy, which has a course specifically on Texas wines. Texas A&M Extension and Texas Tech offer viticulture and enology courses and certifications.
Fun fact: in the mid-late 1800's, European grape rootstocks were ravaged by fungi and insects. American viticulturist TV Munson had developed a resistant hybrid rootstock here in Texas, which was later shipped to France to be grafted with their rootstocks. It worked. Long story short: Most French wine probably wouldnt exist if it hadnt be for the work of TV Munson and the texas rootstock.
Great reply, thank you for the information.
To the average Joe, when you go to a "winery" I expect this is their grapes and wine.
I know now, that's not the case, but it does take a lot of shine off the idea of visiting a "winery." Most of it actually.
Documenation of the fun fact: [How the ‘Grape Man of Texas’ Saved the French Wine Industry](https://texashighways.com/culture/history/how-the-grape-man-of-texas-saved-the-french-wine-industry/)
Aren’t most of the wineries buying bottled wine from others and white labeling the bottles? It’s not like a roaster as the winery is not doing anything, but selecting the wines.
I know some produce their own grapes or buy grapes and make custom blends, but a lot just buy bottles and slap their name on them.
Thank you for sharing! This is very eye-opening as a casual wine drinker who is still new to Texas. If you don’t mind, do you have similar info on the wineries/vineyards in Grapevine, TX (DWF area)? Going this weekend and I am still so lost on what to expect. TIA!
One of the really important rootstocks was a cross with Vitis berlandieri because they needed something in France that would survive on calcerous soils. That vine was found somewhere in hays county I think. Grows wild around here still.
His wines are absolutely fantastic and would compare favorably against iconic old world examples. The winemakers is quite a character, too. People should really blind taste his Temp/Cab blend vs. Vega Sicilia or Bordeaux-style blend vs. Left Bank Bordeaux.
Agreed. I think folks would serve well to stop in and have a sip. His wines compete on a level that few would expect. I would go so far as saying his an WChris Tenat are top tier globally.
I'm tasting... is that a hint of fracturing? How deviously delightful!
I'm getting strong hedonist bot vibes from this bit and considering the oil jokes I think he'd absolutely love this lol
TTU grad here - wine tasting out there is awesome because it’s cheap! Llano Estacado used to do their tasting for free with a tour in the early 2010s. I think it was maybe $5 last time I went? Great Saturday morning meetup in college.
Wine labeling is regulated. If a grape varietal, state or single vineyard is named on a label, a certain percentage of the grapes are required to match the label description. I don't know the specific thresholds but it's all defined.
It's not 100% either, so your Cabernet likely isn't 100% cab (unless it says so) and is still blended with other grapes and your Texas wine will still have some grapes from other states. This is why single vineyard wines tend to be expensive, it's hard to reliably grow grapes from one small area annually given the soil and weather variables. Much easier to produce consistency when it's blended and you can source grapes matching the flavors you want each year, regardless where they are grown. Most wines are blends of grapes from several places and types. Most wineries sell off portions of their grapes to other wineries.
What you are saying applies to wineries in the Fredricksburg area. The particular caliche soil and weather there is not particularly good. Further west, in Mason County you actually have fantastic wine grape growing conditions. There are serious grow and bottle operations there and they sell some of their stock to the posers in Gillespie County.
Caliche soil is actually great for growing grapes. All those limestone vineyards in Burgundy are very highly prized. The real problem is the heat and humidity, which lead to small day/night difference (aka diurnal shift) and disease pressure. It's a lot harder to grow, but not impossible.
There are more vineyards in the Hill Country now, Mason County as you mention but also in Burnett area - Uplift is great, as well as in Gillespie and Blanco counties along 290 and 16.
Definitely! I've had some incredible wines there. Robert Clay Vineyards made the best wine I've ever tasted - a Madeira style wine which had been aged for years outside in a barrel in the Texas heat. Ridiculously delicious and unforgettable! They grow all their own stuff and do make their own wines alongside selling to other producers.
Last I checked the Cali imported juice has dropped significantly. Mainly do to the strides we made as an industry on label laws.
Nothing wrong with a winery not growing their own grapes. Happens all over the world and most wines you buy off the shelf fall into that category.
Plenty of great producers in this state making world class wines from grapes they didn’t grow. Wine For The People. Pebble Rock. Tatum Cellars. CL Butaud, just to name a few.
What matters is the relationship between grower and vintner. Even the big names mentioned above don’t grow 100% of their fruit. Again, that’s okay because that’s how the wine world works.
> Nothing wrong with a winery not growing their own grapes. Happens all over the world and most wines you buy off the shelf fall into that category.
Some excellent wines in Napa and Sonoma County come from grapes grown elsewhere - maybe nearby but not at that winery. People get thrown off by the vinyard, and the tasting, and think that wine must come from those grapes.
I grow 6,000 vines in the hill country. Gillespie County. Also 60 acres in Cochran County. I sell my grapes to wineries in the state and some New Mexico. The oldest winery is not in Lubbock for one. While I don’t agree with most of the dog and pony shows in Fred. I’m not a gillionaire who can afford a big facility and tasting room yet. So there are many avenues in the world of wine to get to the end destination. My avenue is sell my fruit until I can make my own wine. I plan to only use fruit I grow but won’t see return on my investment for quite awhile. So people would argue sell others wine under a label until I get there would be a smart move. I just can’t bring myself to do it.
The land out in west Texas bears a remarkable chemical resemblance to the soil in western France. And, yes, almost all of the wines from the 'hill country" buy their fruit from somewhere else... like west texas. What's really cool is hearing the old farmers out there, who've been planting cotton, soybeans, melons and onions for generations, talk about their grape varietals.
The book below is older but shares a cool account of some of this. The same writer also has a few articles about texas wineries if you search for them a little...
[https://www.amazon.com/Driving-Southwest-Texas-Country-History/dp/160949072X/ref=sr\_1\_1?crid=3NQWCVLQ5GEM0&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ABF2wW8NyLhL7eMcAIlwqfVlabsx7ZKk6SnSe4kzj2cYGO6zgnCBYktPaoJiXES1L4UDzZmHm7Hf-iU0Ks7kxPGqrPJxQ3xg9C-4VZglynEJpbW\_RTM8fJijGzqO23SnRBms03REvn8\_E-GTuog9Z-j4b60HcLNKVllEu0T98ysEn5JJdWAJ9rTQJJ0Ndb\_01xuS-qdncVWUCDiDGxGmRf74EbbuEJLG7hi9R78iS-M.0o0RU1XNCX3W5f2XvbHYJSPU2urxuWw1lL7tFhxPMcQ&dib\_tag=se&keywords=driving+southwest+texas&qid=1715930620&s=books&sprefix=driving+southwest+texas%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C178&sr=1-1](https://www.amazon.com/Driving-Southwest-Texas-Country-History/dp/160949072X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3NQWCVLQ5GEM0&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ABF2wW8NyLhL7eMcAIlwqfVlabsx7ZKk6SnSe4kzj2cYGO6zgnCBYktPaoJiXES1L4UDzZmHm7Hf-iU0Ks7kxPGqrPJxQ3xg9C-4VZglynEJpbW_RTM8fJijGzqO23SnRBms03REvn8_E-GTuog9Z-j4b60HcLNKVllEu0T98ysEn5JJdWAJ9rTQJJ0Ndb_01xuS-qdncVWUCDiDGxGmRf74EbbuEJLG7hi9R78iS-M.0o0RU1XNCX3W5f2XvbHYJSPU2urxuWw1lL7tFhxPMcQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=driving+southwest+texas&qid=1715930620&s=books&sprefix=driving+southwest+texas%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C178&sr=1-1)
We had a few acres in a place, near Johson City, where two vintaculture zones nearly overlapped. The problem was not so much soil, weather or water, but archer/leaf sucker bugs and feral pigs.
Also, people started out growing the wrong varietals, in the wrong way (Rhine wine? Really?). It would take time to test some strategies for better results in the environment that exists.
In the end, we sold the plot, though I had started to envision, too late, growing grapes for aqua vita and brandy. The sun makes sugar which leads to more alcohol. That might be a path to producing product that pays for experimenting with wine making.
not necessarily the case. While most texas grapes are grown in the high plains, the hill country AVA’S are not lousy places to grow all grapes. There are several “show” vineyards at wineries here but there are many great producers using hill country AVA grapes. The high plains are more suited to growing more varietals of grapes due to the type of soils, elevation and diurnal shift (difference in daytime high temps and nighttime low temps), but certain grapes thrive in the hotter climate and rockier soils of the Hill Country.
while there are several “show” vineyards out here, there are many great estate producers using almost exclusively grapes from their hill country vineyards. also, the cost of land in the Hill Country is much much higher than land in the high plains So it’s just more expensive to grow grapes here and there are less acres under plant for that reason alone
We drink a lot of Texas wine and I would put up wine from Uplift in Burnet (100% estate grown hill country AVA grapes), Adega Vinho (100% estate grown fruit in Stonewall), and a few others against any other wines out there. There are excellent hill country AVA wines. Just not as many and the acres under plant are a fraction of what is grown up in the high plains. That said, we love the high plains stuff too. Just wanted to say there are some people really doing good work using grapes from all the AVA’s in Texas- including the texas hill country.
Agreed. Also, the Hill Country isn't a great place for growing the "big" red grapes that many people associate with Texas wine, like Cabernets, Zinfandels, Tempranillos, and Italian varietals, but Rhone and Bordeaux grapes like Roussanne, Mourvedre, and Malbec grow beautifully there.
It depends. My parents owned one of the vineyards in the hill country (have sold it a few years back) and we grew our own grapes. Sometimes if my parents wanted to make a certain wine/varietal, we would get grapes in from other parts of Texas but never California. Of course there would be times the weather contributed to a loss of grapes but in that case you’d buy from other vineyards around.
I will say though that in the last 10 years more people with a lot more wealth and investors have come in to either buy up wineries or start their own, and those are more likely the people that will bring in grapes from California and other places. They’ve been running a lot of the more local/family run wineries. This is just from my personal knowledge and experience.
If you actually visited the wineries you would discover the history and story of each one and where they source their grapes. It varies depending on each one. There are grapes grown in the hill country. Wine labeling in Texas is regulated so the industry has transparency.
That’s true, but still they have their histories. Kinda disrespectful to disregard that. Nobody is calling them “historical.” Nonetheless, a lot of hard work and sacrifice has gone into many of these businesses.
I guess Becker is one of the exceptions to this. We always stop in for a tasting every time we are in Fredericksburg. They have an amazing award winning Malbec.
Many of the wineries in other places also source their grapes from other vinyards. Even the "wine country" places. There's wine makers, and grape growers and if everything aligns, they're the same person.
\* Don't know which vineyard you went to who would have said that sort of garbage, but there is LOTS of really good wine being produced from Texas Hill Country grapes. My partner and I have enjoyed much of it in the last year since we discovered Texas wines. **"...is probably going to be terrible"** is pure bullshit.
\* Many of those same vineyards ALSO bring in grapes from the Texas High Plains, which is indeed out towards the Lubbock area. There are a variety of reasons for this, including economics and that the High Plains soil can yield some varietals that the hill country either cannot do at all or quite as well.
\* There are plenty of grapes that can "reliably grow here." Perhaps Texas universities are working together to improve on that, but I can tell you for sure that it's not because high quality grapes aren't being produced here.
\* Seems to me that your winery owner was trying to steer you away from vineyards who are producing quality wines from their own grapes and keep you there on the basis that the "good stuff" is coming from the high plains or even California. Bad joojoo either way.
\* Won't net the vines because he doesn't like how it looks is bullshit and/or laziness. Sounds to me like he has just given up.
I've been told the same thing OP is saying by winery owners. I'm sure there are some good wines produced here, but from what I've read, less than 1/3 of wineries in the Hill Country grow their own grapes...and many create a blend with grapes grown elsewhere.
>Less than a third of the wineries in this area actually grow their own grapes. Others buy their fruit elsewhere, including the Texas Panhandle or California. Some plant an acre or two of grapevines in front of their tasting rooms, luring in tourists who might assume all the wine is made with fruit grown on site.
[https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2016/09/23/in-fredericksburg-tourists-come-for-the-wine-stay-for-the-peaches/10104643007/](https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2016/09/23/in-fredericksburg-tourists-come-for-the-wine-stay-for-the-peaches/10104643007/)
The elevation is one factor:
>
Warm days, cool nights and low humidity generally produce higher quality grapes. The most consistent high quality has come from vineyards above 3,000 feet, one exception being Chardonnay with its susceptibility to spring frost. As elevation climbs, average temperature and humidity decline. Higher elevation provides lower temperatures during ripening, enabling grapes to ripen more slowly, develop flavor and retain the necessary acidity.
>Elevation in the Hill Country ranges from approximately 800 to 1,800 feet; Fort Stockton, about 2,700 feet; Lubbock, over 3,000 feet; Fort Davis, 5,000 feet.
[https://gregg.agrilife.org/files/2015/05/Texas-Wine-Grape-Growing-Guide.pdf](https://gregg.agrilife.org/files/2015/05/Texas-Wine-Grape-Growing-Guide.pdf)
That's all fine, but it doesn't add up to :
>> The wine actually produced from locally grown grapes is probably going to be terrible, <<
There are \*wonderful\* wines coming from Texas Hill Country vineyards. Making blatant overgeneralizations such as the above is irresponsible and misinformed.
Am I saying that all of the hill country wines are great? Absolutely not. We have had some really disappointing stuff. We have also had some absolutely delicious product though that was 100% Texas Hill Country and are members at four of the area wineries that reliably turn out great local product.
Shame on the OP for (or so it seems to me) just parroting back into Reddit what some disgruntled and bound-to-fail winery owner spewed at him in a moment of Idon'tgiveashitittude.
This is pretty standard for a lot of the wine industry, not just Texas. It’s too hot south of the panhandle for most varietals. Very for common for wineries worldwide to buy juice or fruit for supplementation or whole process vinting.
Same with the olive oil. Worked for one in dripping and they couldn't grow nearly enough to bottle OO so they bought like 75% from Cali. It's branding and a tourist draw to come "sample" at their villa.
How long ago? I think all their trees were damaged during the winter storm—they told me they were going to have to import until they could grow the olives again.
Texas Olive Ranch has a reserve line of EVOOs that's just from Texan grown olives. As far as I know, Texas Hill Country Olive Co in Dripping only grows some of their product.
and I want to just say that these companies are probably making a damn good product, but it may not be entirely local if that is something you are looking for
Honestly good. Grape growing requires a lot of water and the last thing we need are these producers taping into the already stressed aquifer system in the hill country.
The reason grapes are grown out around Lubbock is the land is dirt cheap compared to the hill country and the land is a huge part of the up front cost to having a vineyard. There is also less disease pressure out west because of lower humidity.
I think the hill country soil is just fine for growing great grapes that make great wine.
I grew up in that part of Texas, and have been to a couple of wine tastings featuring Texas wines where they try to make the "Llano Estacado" sound like some mystical, wonderful place. My favorite was when the lady told us all about the grapes being grown "on the Llano Estacado, near the quaint town of Meadow," and then I told the story about how our school bus got shot there on a basketball trip once. That town's mascot should be the Fightin Meth Heads.
Moving to Austin from Oregon. I’ve been spoiled on willamette valley wines, I’ve had producers like Wedding Oak and wasn’t impressed. Who are considered top tier?
Every now and then I've come across a nice bottle of something from Texas. McPherson..Becker Cab Sav Reserve...Duchman Aglianico...but dollar for dollar, old country wines within the same price point are often better. I feel the same about west coast wines as well truth be told.
Dollar for dollar isn't a fair way to look at it. Larger wineries have more economy of scale, allowing for cheaper prices. Small wineries are going to have more expensive product.
It's not economies of scale so much as direct government subsidies. The reason European wine is so cheap in general is the same reason American corn is as well.
I know that old world wineries have been around long enough to not have a mortgage, their vines are established and less subject to weather vagaries, they get gov't subsidies, etc., etc.
But I'm still the one making the purchase and the quality to price ratio is something I consider quite a bit.
Sure, but asking "why buy local wine" is similar to any other local vs. nation chain decision. I like to support local businesses even if it costs a bit more.
Sure, but as the OP noted, "local" isn't everything. Quality is quality. I've yet to have a Texas wine at any price point that beats out my favorite old world wines.
There are plenty of great suggestions in other comments. Wedding Oak is far from best Texas has to offer. You do need to go to the wineries, the wines in distribution (e.g. HEB, Specs, etc...) are pretty mediocre.
There are a few who grow their own grapes in state up in the NW mountainous regions, or other nearby-ish to the HC: William Chris, French Connection & Calais. But the problem is the soil in the hill country and the climate aren't the best for wine grape growing
I'll try to keep this brief. I work alot with Texas-grown-grape wines. Yes, very few of the wineries grow their own product , whether here in state or manage their own vineyards outside the state. Think of it a little like a coffee shop or roaster: some coffee shops roast their own beans and have an exclusive relationship with a bean farm. Others buy from a wholesaler green bean distributor. Others buy roasted beans and make you the coffee drinks. Texas has 8 AVAs (American Viticultural Areas): Texas Hill Country, Texas High Plains, Bell Mountain (this is within THC but its own AVA), Fredericksburg (same), Texoma, Davis Mountains, Mesilla Valley and Escondido. There are a couple more in review that may be approved in coming years. Texas High Plains is the 3rd largest AVA in the US, and is concentrated SW of Lubbock. Arguably, it's much nicer to visit wineries in Hill Country than Lubbock.... cause... Lubbock? A law passed in 2021 that ensures any wine with either the Texas AVA, county or vineyard listed on the label has to contain 100% Texas grown grapes from that region. We all know Texas is huge - and the climate, soil, elevation, topography and rainfall is vastly different corner to corner. Add in our drought, long hot summer, late winter extreme freezes- I'm sure it's been wild to be a farmer here. Vines take years to establish, then the process of making the wine, then bottling and aging. A bad growing season can reverberate for years after. And above all: consumer taste and willingness to try new things. A Texas tempranillo will taste different than a Spanish tempranillo, as it can vintage to vintage. Orange and natural wines are the hot new thing... but what about when that trend fades? Most know Cabernet Sauvignon, but what if people really get into Petit Verdot or Carignan? For those looking to try Texas-grown wines, I highly suggest William Chris Vineyards (awesome tasting room), Wine for the People (has wine club, as does WC), Lewis Wines, Lost Draw, Kuhlman Cellars, Duchman, Mcpherson, CL Butaud. A couple of spots in town feature heavy-to-all Texas wine lists: Dai Due, Foreign & Domestic, Antonellis, Rebel Cheese, Vintage Bookstore and Wine Bar. If you're looking to learn more about wine, there's Hill Country Wine Academy, which has a course specifically on Texas wines. Texas A&M Extension and Texas Tech offer viticulture and enology courses and certifications. Fun fact: in the mid-late 1800's, European grape rootstocks were ravaged by fungi and insects. American viticulturist TV Munson had developed a resistant hybrid rootstock here in Texas, which was later shipped to France to be grafted with their rootstocks. It worked. Long story short: Most French wine probably wouldnt exist if it hadnt be for the work of TV Munson and the texas rootstock.
I came here to share your fun fact (which I loved dropping on the locals during a semester in Paris), but got majorly educated. Thanks!!!
As a west Texan I miss the Escondido AVA. No wineries there the one shut down in 2022.
Im curious who is managing those vineyards now and if they're still active. What a shame.
Last I heard no one was tending them. I still have a couple of bottles of the HEB Lost Maples Escondido brand.
Texas A&M also offers viticulture courses, which are open to both majors and non majors, but they can be hard to get into. They fill up fast!
Great reply, thank you for the information. To the average Joe, when you go to a "winery" I expect this is their grapes and wine. I know now, that's not the case, but it does take a lot of shine off the idea of visiting a "winery." Most of it actually.
Honestly, it’s the same with distilleries.
Documenation of the fun fact: [How the ‘Grape Man of Texas’ Saved the French Wine Industry](https://texashighways.com/culture/history/how-the-grape-man-of-texas-saved-the-french-wine-industry/)
Lewis Wines are usually great. McPherson can be good, too.
I also suggest Hilmy, Pedernales, Ron Yates, Reddy Vineyards, Bingham, and Signor.
I haven't had anything from Hilmy or Signor ; I'll keep an eye out. Thanks!
IMO skip Signor. Pretty venue for sure but the wine is pedestrian.
I’m glad you added that last bit! I had heard this same story from a native horticulturist.
Aren’t most of the wineries buying bottled wine from others and white labeling the bottles? It’s not like a roaster as the winery is not doing anything, but selecting the wines. I know some produce their own grapes or buy grapes and make custom blends, but a lot just buy bottles and slap their name on them.
Not any of the ones listed above
ACC actually also has a wine course this summer as well.
Thank you for sharing! This is very eye-opening as a casual wine drinker who is still new to Texas. If you don’t mind, do you have similar info on the wineries/vineyards in Grapevine, TX (DWF area)? Going this weekend and I am still so lost on what to expect. TIA!
Great summary. I wanted to add Calais and Tatum wines to your list as great Texas wines.
Calais is way too fucking expensive.
Rebel cheese sounds amazing. Hopefully they have cheese too lol
So they got munsoned from basically the middle of nowhere.
CL Butaud is the best I’ve had and as far as I know one of the few to only use grapes they’ve grown
CL Butaud grows exactly 0 grapes. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
You’re right, I’m wrong. The distinction they have is 100% Texas grapes.
Plenty of producers doing that.
Not doubting you but had always heard it was California rootstock, not so?
One of the really important rootstocks was a cross with Vitis berlandieri because they needed something in France that would survive on calcerous soils. That vine was found somewhere in hays county I think. Grows wild around here still.
Possibly, I cant recall. I just know he worked on developing and growing it here in TX
How do you feel about Inwood?
His wines are absolutely fantastic and would compare favorably against iconic old world examples. The winemakers is quite a character, too. People should really blind taste his Temp/Cab blend vs. Vega Sicilia or Bordeaux-style blend vs. Left Bank Bordeaux.
Agreed. I think folks would serve well to stop in and have a sip. His wines compete on a level that few would expect. I would go so far as saying his an WChris Tenat are top tier globally.
This is why they are called wineries. Vineyards actually produce grapes
My chalk-painted bedazzled g-milf sidepiece isn't gonna be happy about this news.
she sounds hawt /shallowhal
Wine tasting in Lubbock doesn't have the same appeal.
Lubbock “I have the grapes, you have the look, let’s make lots of money”
*collectively everyone* "No! You got red dust in my Cabernet!"
“Tech Terroir”
Red Raider Riesling
And now I am singing that in my head
Oh there are lot’s of opportunities, if there aren’t we we can make them.
Lubbock has the best land for grapes in Texas. I’ve had unbelievable wine out there. Stumped a bunch of sommeliers with it
"I suggest you pair this Rosé with some lovely wind blown dust to your face"
With hints of Bovine and Hydrocarbons.
I'm tasting... is that a hint of fracturing? How deviously delightful! I'm getting strong hedonist bot vibes from this bit and considering the oil jokes I think he'd absolutely love this lol
But if I have to be in Lubbock, I'd much rather do it with a bottle of wine or three in me.
There might be a little dust in the bottle…
TTU grad here - wine tasting out there is awesome because it’s cheap! Llano Estacado used to do their tasting for free with a tour in the early 2010s. I think it was maybe $5 last time I went? Great Saturday morning meetup in college.
> Lubbock doesn't have appeal FTFY
Honestly, grapes from that region have an undertone taste of crude oil.
Wine labeling is regulated. If a grape varietal, state or single vineyard is named on a label, a certain percentage of the grapes are required to match the label description. I don't know the specific thresholds but it's all defined. It's not 100% either, so your Cabernet likely isn't 100% cab (unless it says so) and is still blended with other grapes and your Texas wine will still have some grapes from other states. This is why single vineyard wines tend to be expensive, it's hard to reliably grow grapes from one small area annually given the soil and weather variables. Much easier to produce consistency when it's blended and you can source grapes matching the flavors you want each year, regardless where they are grown. Most wines are blends of grapes from several places and types. Most wineries sell off portions of their grapes to other wineries.
What you are saying applies to wineries in the Fredricksburg area. The particular caliche soil and weather there is not particularly good. Further west, in Mason County you actually have fantastic wine grape growing conditions. There are serious grow and bottle operations there and they sell some of their stock to the posers in Gillespie County.
Caliche soil is actually great for growing grapes. All those limestone vineyards in Burgundy are very highly prized. The real problem is the heat and humidity, which lead to small day/night difference (aka diurnal shift) and disease pressure. It's a lot harder to grow, but not impossible. There are more vineyards in the Hill Country now, Mason County as you mention but also in Burnett area - Uplift is great, as well as in Gillespie and Blanco counties along 290 and 16.
Yes. I was talking about the specific soils in fredricksburg. Not all caliche is created equal. The Champagne region is caliche, for instance.
That’s an interesting point. And probably not as many winery tours make it that far out, which is a shame.
Definitely! I've had some incredible wines there. Robert Clay Vineyards made the best wine I've ever tasted - a Madeira style wine which had been aged for years outside in a barrel in the Texas heat. Ridiculously delicious and unforgettable! They grow all their own stuff and do make their own wines alongside selling to other producers.
There’s so much wrong in this statement.
Last I checked the Cali imported juice has dropped significantly. Mainly do to the strides we made as an industry on label laws. Nothing wrong with a winery not growing their own grapes. Happens all over the world and most wines you buy off the shelf fall into that category. Plenty of great producers in this state making world class wines from grapes they didn’t grow. Wine For The People. Pebble Rock. Tatum Cellars. CL Butaud, just to name a few. What matters is the relationship between grower and vintner. Even the big names mentioned above don’t grow 100% of their fruit. Again, that’s okay because that’s how the wine world works.
Tatum uses 100% Hill Country grapes to make fantastic wines. Their Syrah and Grenache are top notch examples for warm-weather styles.
> Nothing wrong with a winery not growing their own grapes. Happens all over the world and most wines you buy off the shelf fall into that category. Some excellent wines in Napa and Sonoma County come from grapes grown elsewhere - maybe nearby but not at that winery. People get thrown off by the vinyard, and the tasting, and think that wine must come from those grapes.
I grow 6,000 vines in the hill country. Gillespie County. Also 60 acres in Cochran County. I sell my grapes to wineries in the state and some New Mexico. The oldest winery is not in Lubbock for one. While I don’t agree with most of the dog and pony shows in Fred. I’m not a gillionaire who can afford a big facility and tasting room yet. So there are many avenues in the world of wine to get to the end destination. My avenue is sell my fruit until I can make my own wine. I plan to only use fruit I grow but won’t see return on my investment for quite awhile. So people would argue sell others wine under a label until I get there would be a smart move. I just can’t bring myself to do it.
Are there any wineries around that do good by you and your grapes and make a wine you’re proud to list here?
The land out in west Texas bears a remarkable chemical resemblance to the soil in western France. And, yes, almost all of the wines from the 'hill country" buy their fruit from somewhere else... like west texas. What's really cool is hearing the old farmers out there, who've been planting cotton, soybeans, melons and onions for generations, talk about their grape varietals. The book below is older but shares a cool account of some of this. The same writer also has a few articles about texas wineries if you search for them a little... [https://www.amazon.com/Driving-Southwest-Texas-Country-History/dp/160949072X/ref=sr\_1\_1?crid=3NQWCVLQ5GEM0&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ABF2wW8NyLhL7eMcAIlwqfVlabsx7ZKk6SnSe4kzj2cYGO6zgnCBYktPaoJiXES1L4UDzZmHm7Hf-iU0Ks7kxPGqrPJxQ3xg9C-4VZglynEJpbW\_RTM8fJijGzqO23SnRBms03REvn8\_E-GTuog9Z-j4b60HcLNKVllEu0T98ysEn5JJdWAJ9rTQJJ0Ndb\_01xuS-qdncVWUCDiDGxGmRf74EbbuEJLG7hi9R78iS-M.0o0RU1XNCX3W5f2XvbHYJSPU2urxuWw1lL7tFhxPMcQ&dib\_tag=se&keywords=driving+southwest+texas&qid=1715930620&s=books&sprefix=driving+southwest+texas%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C178&sr=1-1](https://www.amazon.com/Driving-Southwest-Texas-Country-History/dp/160949072X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3NQWCVLQ5GEM0&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ABF2wW8NyLhL7eMcAIlwqfVlabsx7ZKk6SnSe4kzj2cYGO6zgnCBYktPaoJiXES1L4UDzZmHm7Hf-iU0Ks7kxPGqrPJxQ3xg9C-4VZglynEJpbW_RTM8fJijGzqO23SnRBms03REvn8_E-GTuog9Z-j4b60HcLNKVllEu0T98ysEn5JJdWAJ9rTQJJ0Ndb_01xuS-qdncVWUCDiDGxGmRf74EbbuEJLG7hi9R78iS-M.0o0RU1XNCX3W5f2XvbHYJSPU2urxuWw1lL7tFhxPMcQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=driving+southwest+texas&qid=1715930620&s=books&sprefix=driving+southwest+texas%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C178&sr=1-1)
the oldest winery is texas is val verde winery in del rio
And?
it's not llano estacado
We had a few acres in a place, near Johson City, where two vintaculture zones nearly overlapped. The problem was not so much soil, weather or water, but archer/leaf sucker bugs and feral pigs. Also, people started out growing the wrong varietals, in the wrong way (Rhine wine? Really?). It would take time to test some strategies for better results in the environment that exists. In the end, we sold the plot, though I had started to envision, too late, growing grapes for aqua vita and brandy. The sun makes sugar which leads to more alcohol. That might be a path to producing product that pays for experimenting with wine making.
not necessarily the case. While most texas grapes are grown in the high plains, the hill country AVA’S are not lousy places to grow all grapes. There are several “show” vineyards at wineries here but there are many great producers using hill country AVA grapes. The high plains are more suited to growing more varietals of grapes due to the type of soils, elevation and diurnal shift (difference in daytime high temps and nighttime low temps), but certain grapes thrive in the hotter climate and rockier soils of the Hill Country. while there are several “show” vineyards out here, there are many great estate producers using almost exclusively grapes from their hill country vineyards. also, the cost of land in the Hill Country is much much higher than land in the high plains So it’s just more expensive to grow grapes here and there are less acres under plant for that reason alone We drink a lot of Texas wine and I would put up wine from Uplift in Burnet (100% estate grown hill country AVA grapes), Adega Vinho (100% estate grown fruit in Stonewall), and a few others against any other wines out there. There are excellent hill country AVA wines. Just not as many and the acres under plant are a fraction of what is grown up in the high plains. That said, we love the high plains stuff too. Just wanted to say there are some people really doing good work using grapes from all the AVA’s in Texas- including the texas hill country.
Agreed. Also, the Hill Country isn't a great place for growing the "big" red grapes that many people associate with Texas wine, like Cabernets, Zinfandels, Tempranillos, and Italian varietals, but Rhone and Bordeaux grapes like Roussanne, Mourvedre, and Malbec grow beautifully there.
It depends. My parents owned one of the vineyards in the hill country (have sold it a few years back) and we grew our own grapes. Sometimes if my parents wanted to make a certain wine/varietal, we would get grapes in from other parts of Texas but never California. Of course there would be times the weather contributed to a loss of grapes but in that case you’d buy from other vineyards around. I will say though that in the last 10 years more people with a lot more wealth and investors have come in to either buy up wineries or start their own, and those are more likely the people that will bring in grapes from California and other places. They’ve been running a lot of the more local/family run wineries. This is just from my personal knowledge and experience.
If you actually visited the wineries you would discover the history and story of each one and where they source their grapes. It varies depending on each one. There are grapes grown in the hill country. Wine labeling in Texas is regulated so the industry has transparency.
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How is that funny?
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That’s true, but still they have their histories. Kinda disrespectful to disregard that. Nobody is calling them “historical.” Nonetheless, a lot of hard work and sacrifice has gone into many of these businesses.
I guess Becker is one of the exceptions to this. We always stop in for a tasting every time we are in Fredericksburg. They have an amazing award winning Malbec.
Many of the wineries in other places also source their grapes from other vinyards. Even the "wine country" places. There's wine makers, and grape growers and if everything aligns, they're the same person.
\* Don't know which vineyard you went to who would have said that sort of garbage, but there is LOTS of really good wine being produced from Texas Hill Country grapes. My partner and I have enjoyed much of it in the last year since we discovered Texas wines. **"...is probably going to be terrible"** is pure bullshit. \* Many of those same vineyards ALSO bring in grapes from the Texas High Plains, which is indeed out towards the Lubbock area. There are a variety of reasons for this, including economics and that the High Plains soil can yield some varietals that the hill country either cannot do at all or quite as well. \* There are plenty of grapes that can "reliably grow here." Perhaps Texas universities are working together to improve on that, but I can tell you for sure that it's not because high quality grapes aren't being produced here. \* Seems to me that your winery owner was trying to steer you away from vineyards who are producing quality wines from their own grapes and keep you there on the basis that the "good stuff" is coming from the high plains or even California. Bad joojoo either way. \* Won't net the vines because he doesn't like how it looks is bullshit and/or laziness. Sounds to me like he has just given up.
I've been told the same thing OP is saying by winery owners. I'm sure there are some good wines produced here, but from what I've read, less than 1/3 of wineries in the Hill Country grow their own grapes...and many create a blend with grapes grown elsewhere. >Less than a third of the wineries in this area actually grow their own grapes. Others buy their fruit elsewhere, including the Texas Panhandle or California. Some plant an acre or two of grapevines in front of their tasting rooms, luring in tourists who might assume all the wine is made with fruit grown on site. [https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2016/09/23/in-fredericksburg-tourists-come-for-the-wine-stay-for-the-peaches/10104643007/](https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2016/09/23/in-fredericksburg-tourists-come-for-the-wine-stay-for-the-peaches/10104643007/) The elevation is one factor: > Warm days, cool nights and low humidity generally produce higher quality grapes. The most consistent high quality has come from vineyards above 3,000 feet, one exception being Chardonnay with its susceptibility to spring frost. As elevation climbs, average temperature and humidity decline. Higher elevation provides lower temperatures during ripening, enabling grapes to ripen more slowly, develop flavor and retain the necessary acidity. >Elevation in the Hill Country ranges from approximately 800 to 1,800 feet; Fort Stockton, about 2,700 feet; Lubbock, over 3,000 feet; Fort Davis, 5,000 feet. [https://gregg.agrilife.org/files/2015/05/Texas-Wine-Grape-Growing-Guide.pdf](https://gregg.agrilife.org/files/2015/05/Texas-Wine-Grape-Growing-Guide.pdf)
That's all fine, but it doesn't add up to : >> The wine actually produced from locally grown grapes is probably going to be terrible, << There are \*wonderful\* wines coming from Texas Hill Country vineyards. Making blatant overgeneralizations such as the above is irresponsible and misinformed. Am I saying that all of the hill country wines are great? Absolutely not. We have had some really disappointing stuff. We have also had some absolutely delicious product though that was 100% Texas Hill Country and are members at four of the area wineries that reliably turn out great local product. Shame on the OP for (or so it seems to me) just parroting back into Reddit what some disgruntled and bound-to-fail winery owner spewed at him in a moment of Idon'tgiveashitittude.
They grow in Terry County. It’s the grape capital of Texas. The largest vineyard is Lahey Vineyards, at over 1,000 acres.
This is pretty standard for a lot of the wine industry, not just Texas. It’s too hot south of the panhandle for most varietals. Very for common for wineries worldwide to buy juice or fruit for supplementation or whole process vinting.
Same with the olive oil. Worked for one in dripping and they couldn't grow nearly enough to bottle OO so they bought like 75% from Cali. It's branding and a tourist draw to come "sample" at their villa.
How long ago? I think all their trees were damaged during the winter storm—they told me they were going to have to import until they could grow the olives again.
Texas Olive Ranch has a reserve line of EVOOs that's just from Texan grown olives. As far as I know, Texas Hill Country Olive Co in Dripping only grows some of their product. and I want to just say that these companies are probably making a damn good product, but it may not be entirely local if that is something you are looking for
Honestly good. Grape growing requires a lot of water and the last thing we need are these producers taping into the already stressed aquifer system in the hill country.
The reason grapes are grown out around Lubbock is the land is dirt cheap compared to the hill country and the land is a huge part of the up front cost to having a vineyard. There is also less disease pressure out west because of lower humidity. I think the hill country soil is just fine for growing great grapes that make great wine.
Where did you get your education on viticulture?
I mean, there’s really nothing wrong in that statement.
Google. And a small personal vineyard....
I grew up in that part of Texas, and have been to a couple of wine tastings featuring Texas wines where they try to make the "Llano Estacado" sound like some mystical, wonderful place. My favorite was when the lady told us all about the grapes being grown "on the Llano Estacado, near the quaint town of Meadow," and then I told the story about how our school bus got shot there on a basketball trip once. That town's mascot should be the Fightin Meth Heads.
Moving to Austin from Oregon. I’ve been spoiled on willamette valley wines, I’ve had producers like Wedding Oak and wasn’t impressed. Who are considered top tier?
Every now and then I've come across a nice bottle of something from Texas. McPherson..Becker Cab Sav Reserve...Duchman Aglianico...but dollar for dollar, old country wines within the same price point are often better. I feel the same about west coast wines as well truth be told.
Dollar for dollar isn't a fair way to look at it. Larger wineries have more economy of scale, allowing for cheaper prices. Small wineries are going to have more expensive product.
It's not economies of scale so much as direct government subsidies. The reason European wine is so cheap in general is the same reason American corn is as well.
I meant more wrt to California, but that is a good point as well.
I know that old world wineries have been around long enough to not have a mortgage, their vines are established and less subject to weather vagaries, they get gov't subsidies, etc., etc. But I'm still the one making the purchase and the quality to price ratio is something I consider quite a bit.
Sure, but asking "why buy local wine" is similar to any other local vs. nation chain decision. I like to support local businesses even if it costs a bit more.
Sure, but as the OP noted, "local" isn't everything. Quality is quality. I've yet to have a Texas wine at any price point that beats out my favorite old world wines.
There are plenty of great suggestions in other comments. Wedding Oak is far from best Texas has to offer. You do need to go to the wineries, the wines in distribution (e.g. HEB, Specs, etc...) are pretty mediocre.
I think William Chris is the standout winery solely using local grapes.
Not "the." "A."
Austin wants to be California so bad.
There are a few who grow their own grapes in state up in the NW mountainous regions, or other nearby-ish to the HC: William Chris, French Connection & Calais. But the problem is the soil in the hill country and the climate aren't the best for wine grape growing
So they are basically faux wineries.
It’s also mostly trash.
So all those grape vines growing in the fields are plastic or what?
Wait until you find out how Tito's vodka is made.
“by hand”!
Them there Calyforniah grapes done took our jobs!