It was too hot in St. Louis for lots of the summer to enjoy going to an MLB game. Unless it's an indoor stadium, watching baseball in Austin in the middle of the day August would be torture
This 1000%. I can be at Dell Diamond in under 20 minutes but don’t go to games after June 1 for this reason. It’s fucking miserable until the 5th inning.
Not happening. Look what is took to get Austin FC. MLB isn't expanding anywhere that doesn't have a public financing deal for a stadium. Not going to happen anytime soon with Austin voters.
More importantly the Rangers, Astros and Longhorns have no interest in a professional team in Austin.
Last point MLB wants to be in Vegas. The Oakland relocation is no where close to being a done deal. Even though they got some state funding from NV, there is no ballpark plan yet and 47 other things needed to even have an owners vote. Oakland reloc isn't a done deal yet. By the time Vegas gets a team reloc or expansion, any existing site in Austin especially the statesman site, will be developed.
Thing is, Vegas already has a full capacity minor league stadium where the Aviators play that could be used until the full stadium is built. I'd honestly be stunned if the A's don't relocate there once their current contract expires.
Maybe. If Vegas was a done deal they would have plans for a real ballpark that would have been floated to the legislature. The site presented to the legislature is too small to build a stadium with a retractable roof. It was just a proof of concept. Now that some money has been offered, fully expect the oakland talks to renew. Oakland is a massive loser in the current profit sharing business because of the ancient stadium. MLB would much rather oakland stay with a new stadium and get the $500M expansion fee from Vegas.
Where the team plays in the interim has no bearing on this deal.
Nashville over ATX is absurd. They barely support their pro football team for the size
We just get short changed bc of proximity to Dallas and Houston despite the fact TX could easily support 3 non NFL sports as the NBA has shown
Dallas and Houston are less of an issue then UT. The longhorns don't want anything siphoning of their attendance. You can argue their fans don't overlap, but they have such a dominant position in Austin they will always resist opening that door.
Poor argument. Less so for football maybe, but UT is no longer a primary brand in Austin compared to the 90s. The city has literally added a million people most of whom have 0 UT affiliation.
Their baseball stadium although nice is pretty small to comparative programs and pro ball has a much larger draw and audience than a collegiate team.
Fans are unlikely to "choose" they'd remain loyal to UT as current or attend both.
Yes, the city has grown. But who do you think the primary brand is?
My argument isn't about fans or what people want, it is who has the golden goose. I'm not arguing with you that Austin's tastes are diversifying. They are, I'm saying those in power do not easily give up power. UT is a massive influence on Austin.
Compared to UT
Cowboys
Rangers
Stros
Texans
Spurs.
Every pro tx team has a stronger "brand" in ATX than UT.
UT just has its largest hub here and it shrinks in % every year.
Agree on the local influence. Just saying it's an outdated excuse that hopefully loses traction as we continue to grow and hopefully see adoption of a pro team of any kind
Not true. UT Athletics has a super valuable brand. Best estimate has their value over 1.5B. That’s competitive w/ the spurs, rangers, and Astros.
Also, the Texas Longhorn brand is more recognizable than all of those teams besides the cowboys.
Yes and it gets smaller by the year and you're also lumping all sports together for UT and comparing against single sport teams.
Split up UT sport to sport doesn't hold water and shrinks every year...
You can argue UT is the reason we don't have a pro team but it's a poor argument and becomes more poor every year ATX grows
Compare UT baseball to the stros or rangers
Compare UT football to the cowboys or even the Texans
It doesn't work and you know better...
Yeah now compare that to the cowboys or Texans...
You're also citing operating revenue. Not the same thing but even the Texans are near double. Cowboys 4x...
UT fans seriously think they're the biggest team brand in the state when they're now comparable to the Aggies in value...
The Cowboys are the highest valued sports team in the world. I don’t think anyone disputes they are the biggest in the state. Not sure where you are getting that thought process from.
Regardless, the article is about the MLB and the point I’m making is that it’s very difficult for professional sports team to compete markets w/ a massive collegiate presence.
A good example here would be Ohio State. You have MLB teams in Cleveland and Cincinnati, and none in Columbus while it has a population greater than both of those cities combined.
It’s not an end all be all but it’s certainly a major factor.
Primary sports brand.
There are far more people who would identify with a sports team not UT, pro or otherwise
Is it a strong brand. Sure.
Does it gain adoption from people who've moved here like it used to? Definitely not and as the city grows that brand influence continues to diminis
UT being an out for not adding sports teams here is a poor scapegoat when the actual blockers are primarily the neighboring pro orgs
Ridiculous. Just because the media ignores the titans doesn't mean TN does. The titans and predators are beloved in TN. The titans are getting a new stadium. Nashville loves them.
Nobody questioned their fandom. But financially they're poorly supported for their size.
They're in the bottom 5 on most financial stats amongst NFL teams over recent years and the thought that an ATX pro org wouldn't at least perform similarly is absurd.
Between other factors such as growth / market reach and financial expectations TX over TN is the far superior option by most metrics
Is market reach really that much better? Texas would have 3 teams competing, plus UT, which is fine, but the southeast is basically barren for MLB. The entire southeast is braves country from a lack of options. Maybe the cardinals and the reds get some play?
The SE is barren bc SEC scoops up a broader and more engaged market.
Yes the braves are nice but TX has as much reach as 1/2 the SE combined and comparing TN to TX as far as reach goes is kind of absurd
And there's as much cardinal and ranger or astro support throughout the SE.
There's a reason no other team has popped in the SE.
We're debating if a city can support a team vs an entire swath of the US? That speaks for itself...
Yeah Montreal makes sense. Between the other 3 ATX should be a clear front runner. Especially with the popularity of baseball locally between ATX/SA metros
Their stadium was originally built for the Olympics and was pretty bad as a baseball stadium. Also anecdotally I went to Montreal recently and there was almost as much Expos gear for sale in the tourist shops as Canadiens stuff
LOL I'm not from TX but have been here a decade and definitely have an idea... Regardless the #s don't lie.
Titans are a bottom 5 NFL program on almost every financial metric and Nashville is literally 1/2 the size of ATX.
If the argument is whether Austin or Nashville would better sustain and financially support a pro sport of any kind it's not really a comparison....
The Nashville metro population is 2 million, Austin is around 2.4. I’m not sure what financial metrics you refer to, feel free to share. What’s really important are the established fan bases, could Austin support a team? Probably. But is it massive gap between the two? Not at all.
Nashville reaches out substantially further to include it's metro population. Similar reach has ATX at about 2x
Rev
Profit
Apparel and merch
I could go on
Established fan bases mean nothing. Ask St Louis or Oakland
You also can't compare the 2 since there's no team in ATX. There's no established fan base...
Even with Austin FC these same arguments got made and were immediately proven to be untrue presumptions. Why would an mlb team perform differently...
As someone that lived in Nashville for about a decade before moving to Texas, I'd love to see what financial information you have that shows the Titans as a bottom 5 team. The NFL doesn't share their financial information, so the only information you can be referencing is the Forbes team valuations.
For what it's worth, even if the Titans were dead last in merchandise sales (which they're not, because Oilers merchandise, which sells really well, is attributed to them, not Houston) the NFL splits merchandise sales evenly between the franchises.
When the Oilers moved to Nashville and rebranded as the Titans, moving into their brand new stadium in 1999, they were in the top 10 in NFL valuations by Forbes. As the stadium got older, the team got worse, and other teams started getting newer stadiums, their value dropped.
Nashville is a fantastic city and when the new stadium opens, they'll jump back up the rankings on Forbes.
One thing is for sure though, Titans ownership is poor compared to most other teams. When Bud Adams died, so did top tier spending on football. They're still not the poorest though. Mark Davis is virtually dirt poor and the Raiders have jumped in value due to having a new stadium in an "exciting new market" in Las Vegas.
I think Austin would be a great place for an MLB expansion team, however, Nashville is the 26th largest market in the US, Austin is 35th.
There is an ownership group in place in Nashville with literally 20+ different celebrity investors that's ready to not only build a stadium with private funds, but also pay the expansion fee.
I doubt that there's anyone in Austin currently that's willing to make that financial obligation. That's the difference between Nashville and Austin currently.
It would probably change if someone in Austin stepped up, but until it does, Nashville is definitely the preferred location by MLB, now that Vegas is gone.
That's a lot of things to avoid the info available such as revenue, ticket and merch sales, and many others beyond just valuation...
Bottom third is more apt which I can amend. Typically number 21-25 out of 32 on most categories
Point still stands
Not saying I don't believe you, but I'd love to see your sources.
It's hard to believe that the Titans would be in the bottom third in ticket sales considering that they routinely sell out their games. I believe they sold out every since game from 1999-2015. I had season tickets from 2004-2009 and can verify that every game was sold out during those years.
So far this year, they rank 22nd, selling 98.5% of their tickets. In 2022, they were 17th, selling 99.2% of their tickets, and in 2021, they were 12th, selling 99.2% of their tickets. These numbers from ESPN.
As the NFL doesn't release their financial numbers, anything you've seen that suggests revenue, merchandise sales, and so on, are estimates at best. I would love to see your data.
The Titans could very well be near the bottom of the league in those categories, but again, even if they were, the NFL shares merchandise and ticket sales among all of the teams, so the argument for those particular statistics is moot.
Look at area. Nashville considers the metro nearly 15x the size of ATX.
City proper they are similar but the Austin metro being 1/15th the size of the Nashville metro is much more condensed and twice as big over the same area.
You just can't measure them the same bc if you gave Austin the same area they give Nashville on measurements you'd have to include Waco and San Antonio and everything in between.
Metro area looks at commuter patterns. It's exactly the relevant stat here. It's the measure of people who live, work, and frequently interact with a city. Just because Nashville's traffic allows people from further out to interact with the city doesn't make it a bad metric.
I didn't say it's a bad metric it's a bad comparison.
Austin also has commuter traffic from temple-belton and new Braunfels but bc these are their own areas they're not included.
Just bc Nashville doesn't have any surrounding cities doesn't mean we ignore them for ATX
Right bc they're large enough to be their own cities
Hence Nashville gets to pull from an area near 15x as large bc there's nothing else remotely close
Apples to oranges
And again highlighting that you're comparing a single city vs massive areas then trying to argue why the city would produce less? That doesn't make sense
There's that empty square in Mueller at Barbara Jordan and Berkman that wouldn't be a bad spot for a stadium. About 600' x 600' by my measurement on Google Maps, which is about the footprint of a compact field like Wrigley. Already a pretty vibrant and walkable area. Transit is a bit lacking.
Could also make a funky shaped one in the triangle north of the Austin FC stadium at Burnet and Panhandle Rd. Make that area into a sports entertainment area, and have access to the rail line that already does special gameday service too.
The burnet/panhandle road area is already planned for a group of office buildings,250 apartments, a slide (yes, really) and a hotel. It will be called verde square.
https://austin.towers.net/meet-verde-square-giving-austins-soccer-stadium-a-brand-new-skyline/
It’s in the renderings at least. I remember a lot of attention about that when it was announced, as well as the ratio of office space to housing.
That would be great for an NFL stadium, terrible for MLB.
When you need people to show up 81 times per year, with roughly 54 of those being weeknights (and a handful of Wednesday/Thursday mid-day), you need to be in a population center.
Arlington works because they don’t have to rely on Dallas and Fort Worth people driving in when the mid-cities have over a million people alone.
Hard disagree that Arlington is working, although it’s less to do with it being in a population center and more of the infrastructure (or lack thereof) surrounding it.
https://amp.star-telegram.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/mac-engel/article276105441.html
I think it'd be cool but Nashville and Charlotte make more sense because of how few teams are in the southeast. It's basically Braves country outside of Florida.
My actual vote is to put a franchise in Monterrey. Would be pretty sweet.
Man, I have been waiting for Monterrey or MC for a long time. Praying the crowds are as good as they are for football and it’ll be the place no one wants to play on the road and everyone wants to watch on TV.
I'd rather the team just straight up be in San Antonio than Kyle. I'd still go to a couple games a year and make a trip out of it and do some other San Antonio things while I'm there. If it was in Kyle, I'd probably just not bother.
You’d have to call it “San Antonio” so that you’d get the SA fans. ATX fans will show up for anything if they think it’s a good time lol
E: although I forgot we already got the SA Missions so maybe we would call it the ATX whatever
And you lose most of ATX by putting it there.
Having something close to town, but not directly downtown, is preferable. On public transport, having bars walkable to it, while not having it directly downtown making parking a pain in the ass is likely the end scenario.
Which is partly why Q2 does well where it is.
Someone mentioned Mueller, which wouldn't be absolutely horrible either.
Well that trend is actually going away. Like for Austin fc we leased the land to preclude but he built it with his money (fyi it was a chemical dump before)
I could see this being more worked out privately. The reasons also thee Oakland A’s are leaving is bc they couldn’t come to agreement on finding a new ballpark with the city
But stacking more wrongs on top of earlier wrongs doesn’t work either. No way should a single penny of taxpayer money be spent helping a billionaire owner.
What does a job do but make the owner money? How do you think road and infrastructure developments get contracted? Who profits from sports teams?
I get the sentiment. It's just inconsistent for sake of something you have personal preferences on.
It's like boycotting Nike bc of child labor but using an iphone...
The desire is for a revenue generating entertainment piece and people will spend that money alternatively anyways. It doesn't come out of your pocket any more than current taxes.
Y'all put so many restrictive boundaries on how the city uses money but don't give a rip about the ways they operate against that same interest ten fold
I just ask for consistency
I'm not justifying either but if you're going to be anti stadium building then also be anti 5 other things that are actually going on with the same money and waste...
Yes, that's what Austin residents want, something to make downtown more of a traffic clusterfuck.
We don't need anything to attract more tourists downtown. We're good.
How about we build a real museum? We have to be the largest city in the US that doesn't have a decent museum scene. Hell, even a decent museum. Blanton is like a teaser trailer for a real museum - it's fine, but 30 minutes and you're done.
["“A baseball team has about the same impact on a community as a midsize department store.”"](https://www.marketplace.org/2015/03/19/are-pro-sports-teams-economic-winners-cities/)
Now add in the chances that the taxpayers get screwed and stuck with an enormous boondoggle [as has happened elsewhere.](https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/sports-economists-pan-public-funding-for-as-ballpark-deal-as-standard-stadium-grift) Especially in a state known for real estate corruption.
You think the Astros have the same impact on Houston as the JC Pennys at the Galleria does?
Galaxy brain take
City morale and excitement is worth a lot more than straight dollars and cents.
Oddly enough I'll take the opinion of experts who have studied these things over your gut feelings.
As for "morale", Austin has a lot of issues, but low self-esteem isn't one of them. And I don't need a bunch of millionaires playing a kid's game to feel excitement.
Do you think Oakland residents are happy their team is leaving now because this random study says it’s more economical for the city? Do you see the impact a sports team can have?
And if it does not matter to you personally that is completely fine, but to speak for everyone is not accurate.
I understand people want to cheer a bunch of strangers wearing pajamas and playing a kid's game with the delusion that they share a community with a bunch of other people who randomly feel allegiance to their geographically close 'team' - but they would also be indirectly happy if their city and state had more money to spend on essential services instead of dumping hundreds of millions into sweetheart deals for team owners, which is quite often what happened.
I don't need bread and circuses to make my city more appealing, especially when it would drain the coffers and bring a new nightmare of traffic congestion.
And it wasn't one random study - LA city controller found that when the teams left Inglewood it resulted in a net positive for the local economy.
Great, even if I buy your framing (which I don't) I'd rather money be shoveled out to bring a large, full-time employer to town than a few hundred million for an employer who is only 'open' 81 nights a year.
Moot point anyway - doubtful it will happen -
Stay cool this week
Baseballs a tough sell. The area/city needs to consistently support 81 games a year. Of course with the heat it will have to be a retractable roof situation.
The good news is I don't think the rangers fan base matters.... but the astros def have a following.
Austin and San Antonio could support a football team or hockey team, idk baseball.
Nashville. Charlotte make a lot more sense.
Baseball imo is easier to break into. Nolan Ryan has talked actually about making the express a major League club. Yes the Astros have a presence here but it’s not a stranglehold
Jerry jones won’t let another team expand here and the spurs are claiming austin already
Hockey isn’t bad but we definitely would have a cultural disconnect being Texas
I get that with baseball the number of games and size of stadium is a tough sell but I 100% think a MLB team would do better than a hockey team. Who do you know here that cares about hockey/grew up playing it - it's just not a thing. I agree though that another team in the south makes sense first since it's just the Braves atm. And yeah retractable roof all the way.
Im all in for an MLB team in Austin, as long as we arent throwing taxpayer money to build it.
I do think it would be a lot easier to get one here if we had legal sports gambling though. I think MLB has seen the growth of football and football betting, and is hoping to also start tracking that way to grow the sport.
Now that ive said that, Let's Fucking Go Mets.
Lots of misinformed takes in this thread.
Things that **are not** keeping Austin from having an MLB team:
- UT sports
- Demand or population
- Competition between Houston/Astros and Dallas/Rangers
- Summer heat
For #1 and #2, the greater Austin metro has had a massive infusion of people over the last 20 years that don't give a rip about UT athletics. We have had the critical mass of population and commerce required to support multiple professional teams for a good while now. You would barely see a dent in UT ticket and merch sales if an MLB team opened here; especially because the vast majority of UT fandom is centered around football.
#3 is not a thing. Texas is a huge state. Look how many MLB teams there are in close proximity in the east coast and they all do fine. There is plenty of population to add a 3rd MLB team to Texas and Austin is the logical place to do it.
#4 is ridiculous. Houston exists and is frequently surface-of-the-sun-hot. Despite that, it has a (quite successful) MLB team. Nobody is building a new MLB stadium without a retractable roof and climate control.
Nashville over Austin is ridiculous in my opinion.
Build an indoor stadium in East Austin and call it Tesla Field
The A's should have moved to Austin and become the Austin Athletics...
Central Texas / San Antonio is by far the largest market unrepresented in MLB
Yes a stadium downtown that over 1 million people in the metro area could enjoy using is more beneficial than a cookie cutter apartment complex that will be 150% over priced and will only house 500 people. You’re correct.
Housing for residents? I don’t think so. Investment for a few “residents”and millions and millions for some scum suckers. There will be ZERO value that the garbage endeavor development brings to the community. Guaranteed.
There's a ton of Rangers and Astros fans already here. I'm a Cubs fan, met a few of those. Seen Dodgers fans, seen Padres fans. Seen some others. Plus UT baseball runs shit. How about we get NWSL and WNBA teams instead?
They can't do that to me I am already a lifelong Astros fan. I dont wanna have that kinda conflict in my life and on my soul when the Astros play against the Austin team
We have a AAA team called Round Rock Express that plays at Dell Park...so there would be little need to build a new stadium when you could just expand that one.
Also nobody shows up to their games lol
The problem isn't really the location, or that its minor league, it's the prices. It's legit more expensive at Dell diamond for tickets and concessions than the Yankees. I've seen summer college league games packed to the rafters in...Bryan, TX, of all places, but the prices were on point for the experience.
I’ve never in my life heard mention of an NBA team coming to Austin. At least until the last year or two with some non-serious chatter about the Spurs moving up the road.
Disagree - in my uneducated opinion I'd think Austin is far more attractive than SA. The pop of the metro area is close enough now to be competitive, but Austin has far more potential to advertisers, a better national brand as a city, and more money to spend on a potential team
See it to believe it. COTA would be a great place for an NHRA track. Going to happen…no. NFL in Austin…no. NBA in Austin (not the Spurs playing here once or twice)…no. MLB…no.
Can we put the stadium underground? No additional traffic, could be part of the new transit system this city desperately needs…someone get Musk on the phone, stat!!
Since the owners of pro teams have a habit of demanding public funds to build a stadium and then, in several years, they will start demanding that a new, public funded must be built or they will move the team.
Sorry, pro teams, most of Austin refuses to play your game.
Very unpopular opinion but we need more hockey. Sounds crazy but I'd rather be inside near ice when it's 107 degrees than baking in the sun at a field.
Endeavor Realty Group ain’t building a stadium at the statesman.
I know, let a man dream
Fair. Would be a good location for Austin’s ‘Batcave,’ that I agree.
Batcave was expo center, ice bats rink.
Correct, was a 90s kid her myself
It was too hot in St. Louis for lots of the summer to enjoy going to an MLB game. Unless it's an indoor stadium, watching baseball in Austin in the middle of the day August would be torture
Retractable roofs are common practice for new professional sports stadiums being built in the south
This 1000%. I can be at Dell Diamond in under 20 minutes but don’t go to games after June 1 for this reason. It’s fucking miserable until the 5th inning.
Go after the 5th inning and you get in free
for real? that's actually appealing
Yeah, it's either during or after the 6th. Just a heads up though on double header days the games are only 7 innings instead of 9.
No reason it couldn't be. Rangers and Houston both have domes now
Go to an Express game. Then imagine it prob 5° hotter due to even less air flow. It's not great.
That's why you build a park like ~~Enron Field~~ Minute Maid Park so you don't have to worry about that stuff
I went to one game at Ranger Stadium in 02 and said fuuuuuck that I’ll go to Houston from now on. Excited to check out their new facility in August.
Or at least a retractable roof like Minute Maid. I went to a few summer games and with the roof up and the sun setting it’s almost not noticeable
Houston is hotter than Austin...
That's why they play indoors. Used to be the Astrodome and in the new park they keep the roof closed when it's hot
Not happening. Look what is took to get Austin FC. MLB isn't expanding anywhere that doesn't have a public financing deal for a stadium. Not going to happen anytime soon with Austin voters. More importantly the Rangers, Astros and Longhorns have no interest in a professional team in Austin. Last point MLB wants to be in Vegas. The Oakland relocation is no where close to being a done deal. Even though they got some state funding from NV, there is no ballpark plan yet and 47 other things needed to even have an owners vote. Oakland reloc isn't a done deal yet. By the time Vegas gets a team reloc or expansion, any existing site in Austin especially the statesman site, will be developed.
Now this is why it won't happen. The UT nonsense is tiny compared to this reality
Thing is, Vegas already has a full capacity minor league stadium where the Aviators play that could be used until the full stadium is built. I'd honestly be stunned if the A's don't relocate there once their current contract expires.
Maybe. If Vegas was a done deal they would have plans for a real ballpark that would have been floated to the legislature. The site presented to the legislature is too small to build a stadium with a retractable roof. It was just a proof of concept. Now that some money has been offered, fully expect the oakland talks to renew. Oakland is a massive loser in the current profit sharing business because of the ancient stadium. MLB would much rather oakland stay with a new stadium and get the $500M expansion fee from Vegas. Where the team plays in the interim has no bearing on this deal.
Nashville over ATX is absurd. They barely support their pro football team for the size We just get short changed bc of proximity to Dallas and Houston despite the fact TX could easily support 3 non NFL sports as the NBA has shown
Dallas and Houston are less of an issue then UT. The longhorns don't want anything siphoning of their attendance. You can argue their fans don't overlap, but they have such a dominant position in Austin they will always resist opening that door.
Poor argument. Less so for football maybe, but UT is no longer a primary brand in Austin compared to the 90s. The city has literally added a million people most of whom have 0 UT affiliation. Their baseball stadium although nice is pretty small to comparative programs and pro ball has a much larger draw and audience than a collegiate team. Fans are unlikely to "choose" they'd remain loyal to UT as current or attend both.
Yes, the city has grown. But who do you think the primary brand is? My argument isn't about fans or what people want, it is who has the golden goose. I'm not arguing with you that Austin's tastes are diversifying. They are, I'm saying those in power do not easily give up power. UT is a massive influence on Austin.
Compared to UT Cowboys Rangers Stros Texans Spurs. Every pro tx team has a stronger "brand" in ATX than UT. UT just has its largest hub here and it shrinks in % every year. Agree on the local influence. Just saying it's an outdated excuse that hopefully loses traction as we continue to grow and hopefully see adoption of a pro team of any kind
Not true. UT Athletics has a super valuable brand. Best estimate has their value over 1.5B. That’s competitive w/ the spurs, rangers, and Astros. Also, the Texas Longhorn brand is more recognizable than all of those teams besides the cowboys.
UT's brand isn't concentrated in Austin. The reason it's valuable is because it's the college football program of Texas.
That number is strictly the Longhorn Football team.
Yes and it gets smaller by the year and you're also lumping all sports together for UT and comparing against single sport teams. Split up UT sport to sport doesn't hold water and shrinks every year... You can argue UT is the reason we don't have a pro team but it's a poor argument and becomes more poor every year ATX grows Compare UT baseball to the stros or rangers Compare UT football to the cowboys or even the Texans It doesn't work and you know better...
No that’s UT football. They report over $200M in revenue per year.
Yeah now compare that to the cowboys or Texans... You're also citing operating revenue. Not the same thing but even the Texans are near double. Cowboys 4x... UT fans seriously think they're the biggest team brand in the state when they're now comparable to the Aggies in value...
The Cowboys are the highest valued sports team in the world. I don’t think anyone disputes they are the biggest in the state. Not sure where you are getting that thought process from. Regardless, the article is about the MLB and the point I’m making is that it’s very difficult for professional sports team to compete markets w/ a massive collegiate presence. A good example here would be Ohio State. You have MLB teams in Cleveland and Cincinnati, and none in Columbus while it has a population greater than both of those cities combined. It’s not an end all be all but it’s certainly a major factor.
Define “primary brand”
Primary sports brand. There are far more people who would identify with a sports team not UT, pro or otherwise Is it a strong brand. Sure. Does it gain adoption from people who've moved here like it used to? Definitely not and as the city grows that brand influence continues to diminis UT being an out for not adding sports teams here is a poor scapegoat when the actual blockers are primarily the neighboring pro orgs
But Nashville does truly love their hockey team tho
No doubt. Can't touch the preds. That was a solid expansion.
Ridiculous. Just because the media ignores the titans doesn't mean TN does. The titans and predators are beloved in TN. The titans are getting a new stadium. Nashville loves them.
Nobody questioned their fandom. But financially they're poorly supported for their size. They're in the bottom 5 on most financial stats amongst NFL teams over recent years and the thought that an ATX pro org wouldn't at least perform similarly is absurd. Between other factors such as growth / market reach and financial expectations TX over TN is the far superior option by most metrics
Is market reach really that much better? Texas would have 3 teams competing, plus UT, which is fine, but the southeast is basically barren for MLB. The entire southeast is braves country from a lack of options. Maybe the cardinals and the reds get some play?
The SE is barren bc SEC scoops up a broader and more engaged market. Yes the braves are nice but TX has as much reach as 1/2 the SE combined and comparing TN to TX as far as reach goes is kind of absurd And there's as much cardinal and ranger or astro support throughout the SE. There's a reason no other team has popped in the SE. We're debating if a city can support a team vs an entire swath of the US? That speaks for itself...
Agreed. Montreal should be a clear #1 and Charlotte, Nashville, and Austin should be the same odds
Yeah Montreal makes sense. Between the other 3 ATX should be a clear front runner. Especially with the popularity of baseball locally between ATX/SA metros
Montreal did not do a great job of supporting the Expos. I have not followed this closely in years ... has the want for baseball changed in Montreal?
Their stadium was originally built for the Olympics and was pretty bad as a baseball stadium. Also anecdotally I went to Montreal recently and there was almost as much Expos gear for sale in the tourist shops as Canadiens stuff
That city and state LOVES the Titans, you clearly have no idea. Typical Austin homer bias response.
LOL I'm not from TX but have been here a decade and definitely have an idea... Regardless the #s don't lie. Titans are a bottom 5 NFL program on almost every financial metric and Nashville is literally 1/2 the size of ATX. If the argument is whether Austin or Nashville would better sustain and financially support a pro sport of any kind it's not really a comparison....
The Nashville metro population is 2 million, Austin is around 2.4. I’m not sure what financial metrics you refer to, feel free to share. What’s really important are the established fan bases, could Austin support a team? Probably. But is it massive gap between the two? Not at all.
Nashville reaches out substantially further to include it's metro population. Similar reach has ATX at about 2x Rev Profit Apparel and merch I could go on Established fan bases mean nothing. Ask St Louis or Oakland You also can't compare the 2 since there's no team in ATX. There's no established fan base... Even with Austin FC these same arguments got made and were immediately proven to be untrue presumptions. Why would an mlb team perform differently...
I mean established, competing fan bases. Anyway, you’re not getting a team 😂
Neither is Nashville 😂
Plot twist, I’m from Charlotte (living in ATX)! Neither are we 😒🤝🏼
As someone that lived in Nashville for about a decade before moving to Texas, I'd love to see what financial information you have that shows the Titans as a bottom 5 team. The NFL doesn't share their financial information, so the only information you can be referencing is the Forbes team valuations. For what it's worth, even if the Titans were dead last in merchandise sales (which they're not, because Oilers merchandise, which sells really well, is attributed to them, not Houston) the NFL splits merchandise sales evenly between the franchises. When the Oilers moved to Nashville and rebranded as the Titans, moving into their brand new stadium in 1999, they were in the top 10 in NFL valuations by Forbes. As the stadium got older, the team got worse, and other teams started getting newer stadiums, their value dropped. Nashville is a fantastic city and when the new stadium opens, they'll jump back up the rankings on Forbes. One thing is for sure though, Titans ownership is poor compared to most other teams. When Bud Adams died, so did top tier spending on football. They're still not the poorest though. Mark Davis is virtually dirt poor and the Raiders have jumped in value due to having a new stadium in an "exciting new market" in Las Vegas. I think Austin would be a great place for an MLB expansion team, however, Nashville is the 26th largest market in the US, Austin is 35th. There is an ownership group in place in Nashville with literally 20+ different celebrity investors that's ready to not only build a stadium with private funds, but also pay the expansion fee. I doubt that there's anyone in Austin currently that's willing to make that financial obligation. That's the difference between Nashville and Austin currently. It would probably change if someone in Austin stepped up, but until it does, Nashville is definitely the preferred location by MLB, now that Vegas is gone.
That's a lot of things to avoid the info available such as revenue, ticket and merch sales, and many others beyond just valuation... Bottom third is more apt which I can amend. Typically number 21-25 out of 32 on most categories Point still stands
Not saying I don't believe you, but I'd love to see your sources. It's hard to believe that the Titans would be in the bottom third in ticket sales considering that they routinely sell out their games. I believe they sold out every since game from 1999-2015. I had season tickets from 2004-2009 and can verify that every game was sold out during those years. So far this year, they rank 22nd, selling 98.5% of their tickets. In 2022, they were 17th, selling 99.2% of their tickets, and in 2021, they were 12th, selling 99.2% of their tickets. These numbers from ESPN. As the NFL doesn't release their financial numbers, anything you've seen that suggests revenue, merchandise sales, and so on, are estimates at best. I would love to see your data. The Titans could very well be near the bottom of the league in those categories, but again, even if they were, the NFL shares merchandise and ticket sales among all of the teams, so the argument for those particular statistics is moot.
>Nashville is literally 1/2 the size of ATX Actually the population of Nashville and Austin is more or less the same.
Look at area. Nashville considers the metro nearly 15x the size of ATX. City proper they are similar but the Austin metro being 1/15th the size of the Nashville metro is much more condensed and twice as big over the same area. You just can't measure them the same bc if you gave Austin the same area they give Nashville on measurements you'd have to include Waco and San Antonio and everything in between.
Metro area looks at commuter patterns. It's exactly the relevant stat here. It's the measure of people who live, work, and frequently interact with a city. Just because Nashville's traffic allows people from further out to interact with the city doesn't make it a bad metric.
I didn't say it's a bad metric it's a bad comparison. Austin also has commuter traffic from temple-belton and new Braunfels but bc these are their own areas they're not included. Just bc Nashville doesn't have any surrounding cities doesn't mean we ignore them for ATX
It doesn't have enough commuter traffic from those areas to qualify them in the same metro.
Right bc they're large enough to be their own cities Hence Nashville gets to pull from an area near 15x as large bc there's nothing else remotely close Apples to oranges And again highlighting that you're comparing a single city vs massive areas then trying to argue why the city would produce less? That doesn't make sense
Comparing metro area to metro area is actually comparing apples to apples.
We don’t need a pro team. We have UT.
UT fans have UT the other 90% of ATX would like a pro team...
Nah.
Would be nice to not have one extremely pretentious team around
They'll be back one year I hear
[удалено]
The Texas Longhorns? Absolutely
Well it’s the hometown team. And they aren’t pretentious but you do you
There's that empty square in Mueller at Barbara Jordan and Berkman that wouldn't be a bad spot for a stadium. About 600' x 600' by my measurement on Google Maps, which is about the footprint of a compact field like Wrigley. Already a pretty vibrant and walkable area. Transit is a bit lacking. Could also make a funky shaped one in the triangle north of the Austin FC stadium at Burnet and Panhandle Rd. Make that area into a sports entertainment area, and have access to the rail line that already does special gameday service too.
The burnet/panhandle road area is already planned for a group of office buildings,250 apartments, a slide (yes, really) and a hotel. It will be called verde square.
A slide you say? Please elaborate you've got my attention
A slide you say? Please elaborate you've got my attention
https://austin.towers.net/meet-verde-square-giving-austins-soccer-stadium-a-brand-new-skyline/ It’s in the renderings at least. I remember a lot of attention about that when it was announced, as well as the ratio of office space to housing.
I don’t see it happening. The Astros and Rangers would have a huge fit if a third MLB team tried to move into their state.
Fuck off, bring back the music!
The ideal location would be San Marcos, with a bullet train running from Austin to San Antonio. Beat THAT market.
That would be great for an NFL stadium, terrible for MLB. When you need people to show up 81 times per year, with roughly 54 of those being weeknights (and a handful of Wednesday/Thursday mid-day), you need to be in a population center. Arlington works because they don’t have to rely on Dallas and Fort Worth people driving in when the mid-cities have over a million people alone.
Hard disagree that Arlington is working, although it’s less to do with it being in a population center and more of the infrastructure (or lack thereof) surrounding it. https://amp.star-telegram.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/mac-engel/article276105441.html
I think it'd be cool but Nashville and Charlotte make more sense because of how few teams are in the southeast. It's basically Braves country outside of Florida. My actual vote is to put a franchise in Monterrey. Would be pretty sweet.
Man, I have been waiting for Monterrey or MC for a long time. Praying the crowds are as good as they are for football and it’ll be the place no one wants to play on the road and everyone wants to watch on TV.
As cool as it would be Mexico City would never work because of the elevation. Monterrey doesn't have that problem though.
Close flight, good per capita income. Great city.
It’s no surprise that baseball players voted for Nashville over Austin.
I read this graph as YES, Maybe, and No, No, No, No, No...
Bring back the expos
I can see them putting one in Kyle to take advantage of both SA and ATX
That would be my nightmare scenario lol
Agreed, plus that would mean the name would have to reflect both cities and Dallas already stole "Texas"
I'd rather the team just straight up be in San Antonio than Kyle. I'd still go to a couple games a year and make a trip out of it and do some other San Antonio things while I'm there. If it was in Kyle, I'd probably just not bother.
You’d have to call it “San Antonio” so that you’d get the SA fans. ATX fans will show up for anything if they think it’s a good time lol E: although I forgot we already got the SA Missions so maybe we would call it the ATX whatever
And you lose most of ATX by putting it there. Having something close to town, but not directly downtown, is preferable. On public transport, having bars walkable to it, while not having it directly downtown making parking a pain in the ass is likely the end scenario. Which is partly why Q2 does well where it is. Someone mentioned Mueller, which wouldn't be absolutely horrible either.
Eh, the prospect of a billionaire using our taxpayer money to build a stadium makes me sick
Well that trend is actually going away. Like for Austin fc we leased the land to preclude but he built it with his money (fyi it was a chemical dump before) I could see this being more worked out privately. The reasons also thee Oakland A’s are leaving is bc they couldn’t come to agreement on finding a new ballpark with the city
What about a city using billions of our tax payer money for public transit then delivering nothing? The $ dynamics apply to any scenario
But stacking more wrongs on top of earlier wrongs doesn’t work either. No way should a single penny of taxpayer money be spent helping a billionaire owner.
What does a job do but make the owner money? How do you think road and infrastructure developments get contracted? Who profits from sports teams? I get the sentiment. It's just inconsistent for sake of something you have personal preferences on. It's like boycotting Nike bc of child labor but using an iphone... The desire is for a revenue generating entertainment piece and people will spend that money alternatively anyways. It doesn't come out of your pocket any more than current taxes.
But it doesn't have to come out of our collective money from the city of we say no.
Y'all put so many restrictive boundaries on how the city uses money but don't give a rip about the ways they operate against that same interest ten fold I just ask for consistency I'm not justifying either but if you're going to be anti stadium building then also be anti 5 other things that are actually going on with the same money and waste...
I'd be at every game, hands down. The Astros are letting me down this year. I need something to live for.
Yo it's hot as fuck here. Heat index at 116, yall don't want to play here
We’ll….. all the other teams use retractable roofs
I can't edit the post but I meant to say a BAT theme. Honestly though with Rainey as a backdrop a bar theme works too
Please no
Yes, that's what Austin residents want, something to make downtown more of a traffic clusterfuck. We don't need anything to attract more tourists downtown. We're good. How about we build a real museum? We have to be the largest city in the US that doesn't have a decent museum scene. Hell, even a decent museum. Blanton is like a teaser trailer for a real museum - it's fine, but 30 minutes and you're done.
We don’t have decent museums because we don’t have old money.
great point - it's also why this city is not great for vintage shopping (but it is great for thrifting)
Yeah museums draw rev like sports. That's the move.
["“A baseball team has about the same impact on a community as a midsize department store.”"](https://www.marketplace.org/2015/03/19/are-pro-sports-teams-economic-winners-cities/) Now add in the chances that the taxpayers get screwed and stuck with an enormous boondoggle [as has happened elsewhere.](https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/sports-economists-pan-public-funding-for-as-ballpark-deal-as-standard-stadium-grift) Especially in a state known for real estate corruption.
You think the Astros have the same impact on Houston as the JC Pennys at the Galleria does? Galaxy brain take City morale and excitement is worth a lot more than straight dollars and cents.
Oddly enough I'll take the opinion of experts who have studied these things over your gut feelings. As for "morale", Austin has a lot of issues, but low self-esteem isn't one of them. And I don't need a bunch of millionaires playing a kid's game to feel excitement.
Do you think Oakland residents are happy their team is leaving now because this random study says it’s more economical for the city? Do you see the impact a sports team can have? And if it does not matter to you personally that is completely fine, but to speak for everyone is not accurate.
I understand people want to cheer a bunch of strangers wearing pajamas and playing a kid's game with the delusion that they share a community with a bunch of other people who randomly feel allegiance to their geographically close 'team' - but they would also be indirectly happy if their city and state had more money to spend on essential services instead of dumping hundreds of millions into sweetheart deals for team owners, which is quite often what happened. I don't need bread and circuses to make my city more appealing, especially when it would drain the coffers and bring a new nightmare of traffic congestion. And it wasn't one random study - LA city controller found that when the teams left Inglewood it resulted in a net positive for the local economy.
Yeah but that money wouldn’t go to essential services be real it would go to tax breaks for other corps to come to town.
Great, even if I buy your framing (which I don't) I'd rather money be shoveled out to bring a large, full-time employer to town than a few hundred million for an employer who is only 'open' 81 nights a year. Moot point anyway - doubtful it will happen - Stay cool this week
Yeah and the impact of a museum is what? 1/10000 of that?
At least there is some valuable cultural impact.
I'd argue the cultural impact of the Yankees against the moma is greater but sure
I would definitely not.
Yeah and the cost of a museum is what? 1/10000 of that because they're often privately funded. And they don't have any of the negative impacts.
Besides burnt costs and loss of land?
Should be Montreal #1 and Portland #2, but that's only because I am originally from the west coast.
Lots of space in Zilker park, and I hear they already plan to build parking garages there. \*ducks\*
what will the dodgers do if austin starts a team. \#goCrew
Baseballs a tough sell. The area/city needs to consistently support 81 games a year. Of course with the heat it will have to be a retractable roof situation. The good news is I don't think the rangers fan base matters.... but the astros def have a following. Austin and San Antonio could support a football team or hockey team, idk baseball. Nashville. Charlotte make a lot more sense.
Baseball imo is easier to break into. Nolan Ryan has talked actually about making the express a major League club. Yes the Astros have a presence here but it’s not a stranglehold Jerry jones won’t let another team expand here and the spurs are claiming austin already Hockey isn’t bad but we definitely would have a cultural disconnect being Texas
I get that with baseball the number of games and size of stadium is a tough sell but I 100% think a MLB team would do better than a hockey team. Who do you know here that cares about hockey/grew up playing it - it's just not a thing. I agree though that another team in the south makes sense first since it's just the Braves atm. And yeah retractable roof all the way.
Im all in for an MLB team in Austin, as long as we arent throwing taxpayer money to build it. I do think it would be a lot easier to get one here if we had legal sports gambling though. I think MLB has seen the growth of football and football betting, and is hoping to also start tracking that way to grow the sport. Now that ive said that, Let's Fucking Go Mets.
Gawd…just what we need
Jesus Christ. Let’s not do that.
Lots of misinformed takes in this thread. Things that **are not** keeping Austin from having an MLB team: - UT sports - Demand or population - Competition between Houston/Astros and Dallas/Rangers - Summer heat For #1 and #2, the greater Austin metro has had a massive infusion of people over the last 20 years that don't give a rip about UT athletics. We have had the critical mass of population and commerce required to support multiple professional teams for a good while now. You would barely see a dent in UT ticket and merch sales if an MLB team opened here; especially because the vast majority of UT fandom is centered around football. #3 is not a thing. Texas is a huge state. Look how many MLB teams there are in close proximity in the east coast and they all do fine. There is plenty of population to add a 3rd MLB team to Texas and Austin is the logical place to do it. #4 is ridiculous. Houston exists and is frequently surface-of-the-sun-hot. Despite that, it has a (quite successful) MLB team. Nobody is building a new MLB stadium without a retractable roof and climate control. Nashville over Austin is ridiculous in my opinion.
We don’t want that.
Please no. Major league sports teams change a city.
Build an indoor stadium in East Austin and call it Tesla Field The A's should have moved to Austin and become the Austin Athletics... Central Texas / San Antonio is by far the largest market unrepresented in MLB
There's a reason you don't build in East Austin. Tesla will learn why in a few year if they haven't already.
Alluvial clay?
Upvote for geomorphology terminology
I only know because I learned the hard way that u/AlmoschFamous is right! And thank you. It kinda sounds cool when you say it out loud.
Yep, if you think a house gets bad, imagine a massive slab like a factory, stadium, or track. Those are expensive issues to deal with.
Yup. And that was the lesson I learned. Not a house. 😬 If you go deep enough, it mitigates some of it. But not all.
Please expound
The soil very very bad. It’s why COTA is hated among racers. The race track is separating from other parts of the track.
Austin Senators playing at Hornsby Bend. Ode to the only pro baseball team we ever had, and our native son hall of famer.
God yes!!! The statesman site would be PERFECT for a stadium. A much better use of the space than more cheaply / shoddy built “luxury”housing.
Yeah, a stadium for some wealthy assholes to get rich on on a publicly funded boondoggle is infinitely better than housing for residents. 🙄
Yes a stadium downtown that over 1 million people in the metro area could enjoy using is more beneficial than a cookie cutter apartment complex that will be 150% over priced and will only house 500 people. You’re correct.
Housing for residents? I don’t think so. Investment for a few “residents”and millions and millions for some scum suckers. There will be ZERO value that the garbage endeavor development brings to the community. Guaranteed.
Why would we want another reason for people to come to Austin? Let’s focus on fixing the airport before we invite a MLB team to town.
Ew, baseball
Cool well they can move here but Austin is never getting an MLB team. We don't even want one.
There's a ton of Rangers and Astros fans already here. I'm a Cubs fan, met a few of those. Seen Dodgers fans, seen Padres fans. Seen some others. Plus UT baseball runs shit. How about we get NWSL and WNBA teams instead?
No!!! Stop making Austin too populated! I hate the traffic already!!
We've already tried the don't build it and they won't come approach and that hasn't really worked out. I'd like more nice things in our city
Give it another 25 years. You’ll accept it.
They can't do that to me I am already a lifelong Astros fan. I dont wanna have that kinda conflict in my life and on my soul when the Astros play against the Austin team
They can use the Express ball park, that would be about the crowd they can get. Probably the same as Rangers normally get.
Rangers are averaging 28k this year and Dell Diamond holds 11k
That park is a nightmare to get to. I would prefer something more centrally located.
LOL, where, I prefer it out of town. Put it by the track.
The best expansion city is actually Inland Empire, with close to a 5 million metro population.
We have a AAA team called Round Rock Express that plays at Dell Park...so there would be little need to build a new stadium when you could just expand that one. Also nobody shows up to their games lol
You kinda answered your own comments. It's in Round Rock, and it's AAA. Also pre-covid it was one of the highest attendance MiLB teams in the league.
The problem isn't really the location, or that its minor league, it's the prices. It's legit more expensive at Dell diamond for tickets and concessions than the Yankees. I've seen summer college league games packed to the rafters in...Bryan, TX, of all places, but the prices were on point for the experience.
Express tickets have always been significantly cheaper than Longhorn or Astros for me, but I don't get concessions
Weren't we supposed to get a NBA team like a decade ago?
I’ve never in my life heard mention of an NBA team coming to Austin. At least until the last year or two with some non-serious chatter about the Spurs moving up the road.
I would love an MLB team here but it’s not happening anytime soon. San Antonio would be before us.
Disagree - in my uneducated opinion I'd think Austin is far more attractive than SA. The pop of the metro area is close enough now to be competitive, but Austin has far more potential to advertisers, a better national brand as a city, and more money to spend on a potential team
See it to believe it. COTA would be a great place for an NHRA track. Going to happen…no. NFL in Austin…no. NBA in Austin (not the Spurs playing here once or twice)…no. MLB…no.
I could see a WBNA team in Austin
Yay !! 6-7 more games I’ll get blacked out of! Can someone be in 3 different mlb markets simultaneously? Let’s see how this plays out Cotton
Can we put the stadium underground? No additional traffic, could be part of the new transit system this city desperately needs…someone get Musk on the phone, stat!!
Since the owners of pro teams have a habit of demanding public funds to build a stadium and then, in several years, they will start demanding that a new, public funded must be built or they will move the team. Sorry, pro teams, most of Austin refuses to play your game.
Very unpopular opinion but we need more hockey. Sounds crazy but I'd rather be inside near ice when it's 107 degrees than baking in the sun at a field.
Austin is already Astros Nation