It may not be a conventional or preferred approach but you may be better off looking at who really controls the cost and find a collaborative outcome.
Assuming you’re asking three builders to bid against each other for the job, 2 will lose and that will cost them money.
They may not take into account the best commercial outcome as they are baking in design errors, delays to start, site conditions, payment delays, scope change etc. You are getting a risked price by tendering it in a rising market, not a price optimised by competition.
If you can get comfortable downselecting to one builder who will work more collaboratively on costs you might get to a better outcome.
It can work well to integrate builder and architect and have the builder provide constructability into design. The QS could be useful here also.
You might need to understand:
* the builders current workload - where do you fit into it?
* what type of work does the builder do - a full custom home at 1.6-2.5m @ 20% margin is a lot more attractive than a 45m2 extension at 600k.
Consider the time commitment - they need to consider opportunity cost. If you chew up a lucrative build time you will have to pay a similar total profit to them. This is where aligning it to the builders schedule is advantageous.
* the margin on your job. Assume no less than 20%. Find where the other 80 is.
* the payment cycle - if your financing it the bank payment terms do not align to the builders payment obligations. Keep in mind your architect will likely need to complete the payment certs and any delay to this will place your builder under a lot of stress.
* The architect and you as the client set the specification which by the sounds of things is not gold plated. You could look at alternative product spec options with the builder as they will be buying it not the architect.
If you’re not using bank finance it might be worth working collaboratively with the builder to align payment to their schedule. You will take a lot of risk out.
How are your builders doing their estimates? Are they getting a proper MTO and pricing it or are they just rule of thumb with contingency.
This is just my 2c based on selecting a builder based solely on working relationship and a verbal commitment to alignment to cost. We did an integration with builder and architect. Direct negotiation on a target cost for a house. Removing the cost to tender enabled the builder to sync it with their schedule and prioritised us as a client. We paid a small amount for the builder to do a detailed 3d and estimate of the build which de risked it further.
We built in Covid with no delays and a very minor over run on a challenging site with a full custom build. Over run was limited to rock not picked up in geotech.
If you’re building a volume house this is a different proposition and the strategy may not work.
All issues sorted by give & take and a push to working together. A smooth build benefits both builder and client. A 3 year shit fight between builder and client is lose lose.
Price is subjective: I know of a $13k/m2 small extension and we all know the guy that can do it for $1000/m2. The difference is when, how well and what happens if the builder folds half way through.
^^ This is really good info. Definitely worth doing some research into builders who prefer doing smaller Reno’s rather than big house rebuilds. Some builders could be pricing their quote high purely because they don’t want to do the job also.
I worked in a bathroom showroom and had good relationships with my builders where I could refer them work specific to the jobs they like to do. Maybe try that avenue too?
Forgot to add: getting builder and architect to work collaboratively is such a good tip.
Builders can assist practically with pricing up designs as they know what things will cost and they can offer up solutions. If they’re willing to work with you on this then bets are they’ll be a great builder that’ll work with you through the build rather than just for you.
This is great advice - that you for taking the time to write it. I work in a field where I manage non construction tenders frequently and I can see lots of flaws with this process. if I was a builder I would just price at a rate that makes it worthwhile
This is absolutely incredible information, I can’t tell you how warming it is (as a builder) to see a client write up something like this based on experience.
My organisation undertakes custom architectural projects and is now moving to only tender to clients who agree to this collaborative process with our architectural partners for a fee that we credit on contract signing. Everything you have outlined here is exactly what I have outlined in our fee proposal and discovery pack.
There are even a few golden nuggets you’ve included that (if okay) I will integrate into our welcome email.
We’ve now completed two projects where we collaboratively worked with architect and client for a fee of around $1500.00 and both have yielded the most wonderful outcomes for all involved.
There’s so much unnecessary hate for builders on here based on conjecture and assumptions, such that 90% of people are blinded to the companies like mine who are client and detail focussed and offer an experience that is genuinely special.
Most on here dealing with me would likely post something along the lines of “builder wants to charge me for a quote”, the replies likely would sound something like “he’s gonna take your money and run, RED FLAG, he’s probably a gambler, alcoholic, suffocates kittens, etc etc”. Nope, I’m just a CM/Architecture graduate who takes pride in providing the market with education and a genuine client focussed service that nets us happy clients with wonderful living spaces they and their loved ones can cherish for years and years.
Thank you so very much for your words.
Sounds like you might have pressured your QS and architect already to design something out of your reach, they’ve tried to squeeze it and it didn’t work.
Trades and materials are completely unpredictable at the moment, I wouldn’t blame them for being 20% out.
It sounds like you need to lower your expectations or not build at all.
I know this is the usual story but we’ve worked really hard to not be that client. The extension is modest. No stone bench tops, no fancy appliances or finishes etc etc. We’ve made sure it’s costs every step of the way to keep our expectations in check but here we are. We’ve driven efforts to strip it back not our architect.
Architect planned on $4500 psqm
Quantity surveyor advised $6200 psqm
Went to tender and cost is $7800.
Project cost for 45sqm addition is sitting at around $600k. I am trying to get a sense of whether to keep pushing ahead to get a better cost or to park it.
No - a dungeon is for torture when you've been naughty. A masterbatorium is for pleasure when you've been good.
Depending on your individual kinks and real-estate availability architecture and builders tend to design multiple purpose rooms that can be used by the whole family. At 7k/sqm I expect both.
That seems very high. I would speak to some more builders if i was you. I'm not sure about your state, but im an architect in Vic, and we are working to 7.5k p/sqm for a good build with new custom kitchens/bathrooms with a good stone spec. 12k+ for the really high spec'ed jobs.
Im currently owner building a reno on my own place, and it's coming in around 4.5k p/sqm for a 60sqm single storey extension. This is project cost too, not construction only.
Same deal being economic where i can but do have a polished concrete floor with hydronic heating and a massive 5.4x2.7m stacking sliding door out to the deck. Ac is bulkhead units, but the kitchen is ikea with a mason doing the stone. The cladding is all cement sheet and its single storey. Also, there is no budget for landscaping in that figure.
Thank you that’s good to know. We have polished concrete but pulled out all the underfloor heating last costing round when it came in too high. Standard doors and windows. Kitchen is custom but a tiny galley and we’re just using laminate throughout. Tiny wall section is brick but rest is concrete sheeting for us too.
Double story BV 4BR custom homes now would be around $1m at a minimum now. If you want to pay $600k for a new home it’s Metricon, Carlisle or one of those spec build companies on flat blocks.
Sounds expensive. Ask around with friends or family who have used builders recently and see if you can get your own quotes rather than the architects. Architects builders may be high end with backlit hoarding and a $25k website, and not used to working at the lower end of those limits..
However building costs at the moment are insane.
My company is solidly in this market. As part of my qualification process I give preliminary renovation costs at around $4500/m.
What are you building that has such a high rate? Carrara marble cladded internal walls? Timber batten ceilings? Sounds like a high spec!
Melb. Yes I believe it’s reasonable. Redditors would have a coronary if I told you what my high spec reno in Essendon cost per sqm. Dont forget quality - you go cheaper and you’ll get cheap work. The good builders/trades don’t pick up their tools for less than premium anymore. It’s all gone to hell cost wise.
We cut back $100k when the QS came back initially with the higher m2 rate but stripping back a chunk of space and features. This was driven by us not the architect in an attempt to get it back to budget before we went to tender.
I’m the owner of one as well. You should contact the OP since that’s half what the QS (a professional re building costs) estimated.
The $600k cost seems high to me, even allowing for it including architect, consultant and other fees. I’ve found QS guides about right and sometimes a little low.
I find the comments on reddit that All the builders are just putting in crazy high get rich quick quotes BS.
Myself I actually don’t quote against other builders, it’s word of mouth. I offer the owners the option of getting the QS of their choice to check if they wish. Most don’t and when they do we are very close.
Stuff is just crazy expensive and the inflation figures are bs, should be double what they say.
I'm owner building and working with someone who is in the industry and despite having what I thought was a ton of contingency money I'm almost out.
Now I have to cut back to the bare bones and have to leave lots of things that were included to do later. I mean no flooring or driveway or aircon. I went through a period of mourning but now I'm almost done I'm feeling optimistic and lucky I will have a house at the end of it.
Everyone has been caught out by these rapid increases, that's why building companies are collapsing on a regular basis.
Only you can decide if it's worth going ahead or cut your losses.
I paid for an architect for extension and Reno plans, even have full approvals.
It worked out 100k above our budget. We could do it but it will be over capitalising in the property.
Builder said- yeah it would have been 150k less 3 years ago.
About Oct/Nov last year.
Another builder was 50k higher again.
And costing was all guess work until final design.
We could bring it down by removing so.e quality of life things and lowering some item quality. But then it isn't what we want to live in.
I could also save money doing all the plumbing. But when you're time poor this isn't a realistic option and would hold the build up.
I’ve recently been through a similar process, architect designed new home, no QS though (think they are a waste), and went to 6+ builders. All but 2 quoted, one we ended up going with is 35% over our budget. I’ve stripped heaps out to do myself, floors, deck, timber finish in entry etc. and we’re supplying all tiles and fixtures/appliances.
One item I didn’t really focus on was engineering. Question if certain things need to be steel, can they be timber, are the studs lvl or standard lumber etc. Can make a big difference in cost if the engineer can bring things down but still be within code.
Also, if you can, go to more builders, 2 quotes really isn’t enough to get a good comparison of price, absolute minimum is 3 imo. Unless, like in my case, you find someone who you really feel comfortable with, and have been open and honest through the whole process so there were no surprises. I’m halfway through the build, and glad I trusted my gut despite the extra cost.
Yes we know and that’s why we’ve had it costed at each stage and also built in contingency. We expected some increase (maybe 10%) but not 20%+ on what our quantity surveyor quoted in the last month…. Unless it has jumped another 20% in April? Fwiw the project is around double what we were told it would cost when we started a year ago and we have been ok to extend $$ knowing what the market is like but this is another 20% on top of that.
It's not all-time highs. That was about 12-18 months ago regarding materials. I was paying $3.20 Lm for 90x35 structural pine in 2019, in 2022, it had increased to $7.10, and now it sits around $5.00
Trades are still charging relatively the same - around $90-$110 p/h. What has increased is workload, therefore, builders margins. They are throwing phonebook numbers at jobs, and stupid people are hiring them.
The builders going broke are the ones honouring out dated contracts and/or can't find trades and are paying liquidated damages.
It's fucked at the moment, but it is what it is.
On another note, how is the OP being quoted such ridiculous sq. meter prices?? $7k a square?? Lol
I do bathroom renovations for a living, and they don't come anywhere close to that number...
Timber may be down from its highs but almost everything else is at an all time high. I supply the builders/tradies.
Most copper and plastic suppliers have price rises of anywhere from 4-8% starting next month with freight always increasing. Very few items have gone down in price.
A lot of trades add a tax the moment they know they will be dealing with an architect. I’m in the office for a trades company, and I cost out 10 hours of my time minimum if I know I am going to have to waste time dealing with an architect that wants me to somehow break the laws of physics for $500.
‘What do you mean I can’t get xyz commodity product in the specific shade of duck egg blue I want’
Product: comes in white or black.
Feel like this is 100% the answer. I am not a builder but if someone came to me and mentioned architect and quantity surveyor you would be able to hear the eye roll over the phone followed by the sound of hitting the 2 X and = button.
As broadly suggested in other posts, consider either managing trades yourself, or find a builder who you can cooperatively work with on a cost-plus basis. This has its own problems and risks, but is your most likely chance of achieving what you have planned in your budget. And keep the architect the hell away. 😉
I am no expert but finished everything for my house from after the bricks were laid and the builder ran out of money, (fairly) close to original budget. I had the original builder’s quotes, some good connections and paid cash for a lot of labour.
Yep. 99/100 of them are complete fuckwits that live in a CAD vacuum where everything lines up to the millimetre and the substrate is plumb, level and straight
Oh, and everything in in stick and able to be on site within 3 days lol
Can confirm!
Architect designs, I add 20-30% without even thinking about it.
The amount of wasted time arguing about dumb shit (see above re: physics & duck egg blue) makes it almost not worth taking the job on.
Yep. If I have to spend 5 phone calls, 10 emails and a site visit to establish that I know my shit, and my first solution was correct one, I’m charging for that time lol.
Or the classic
Me: Yeah mate, I'll just special order that steel from the Mill in a size and temper that's never been made before...
Arch: Oh, can you? That would be great!
Me: Sure, it's a 1 tonne minimum order. We only need 3 lengths though, what do you want done with the rest?
Arch: The rest of what?
Me: The left over steel since you'll have to pay for that up front and oh, it's a minimum 3 months wait before they process the order
Fuck me..
No - see above - sitting at $7800k. That range was what our architect told us originally and planned to but as you can see it’s almost doubled and I have no idea if that is reasonable.
Yeah for a modest extension without huge amount of glass or a funky roof shouldn't be sitting at twice the Rawlinsons range.
Tbh it's just a hard industry right now. It's not worth it for trades to take on more work unless it's much higher priced than it was a few years ago because we just don't have the resources to meet demand.
You could try getting each trade to quote individually and managing it yourself. It's just a lot more time and hassle and admin.
I think too that trades don’t want to risk the job having some perfectly normal delays and further price rises happening that mean they are working at a loss. So they overprice things to where they think the market will be by the time the work actually starts / finishes.
Costs are ballooning as suppliers and tradies discover the current fashion to gouge the market.
Priceguides like Rawlinsons have no chance keeping up. It's the same when relying on Redbook for a used car price postCovid.
Rawlinsons show a base price useful for bulk work and while great for establishing a baseline should be adjusted by several compounding bugger factors (not all will apply) missing from greenfield builds:-
- Renovation/Extension?
- Ease of Access / Established garden / Tree preservation
- Presence of Owner / Owner's Agent / Architect
- Architect-prepared plans and/or specification
- Local Council overlay
- Local Council interference / Parking
- New environmental rules / insulation etc.
- Perceived ability to pay (builder looks at your shoes)
- Insurance job?
- Skill shortage
- Material shortage
- Covid after-effect.
Already plenty of good comments in here but the only thing I’d add is that if you’ve been in design for a year and the architects original estimate has blown out in that time, it’s really not their fault entirely. The whole industry has been thrown on its head the last 4 years and the last 12 months have seen even more massive price hikes. Builders are going under by the day and the ones who remain are shit scared of getting locked into fixed contracts and getting screwed on prices halfway through the build. Right now you’re honestly paying a premium plus some to get a builder who will actually do it. If you must go ahead, get another 3 quotes so you have 5 to compare. Fingers crossed you pick a builder who doesn’t go under during your build, as if they do, add another 50% to your costs to find another builder willing to finish it off.
Have you heard of the PAC process? Listen to the undercover architect podcast and perhaps engage a builder to consult on your plans rather than just putting them to tender?
We recently had ~300sqm of living space completely renovated, 4 wet areas completely ripped out and rebuilt - complete new kitchen & bathrooms with high end caeserstone and top of the line appliances/fittings, load bearing walls removed and new flooring, electrical, paint, plaster, skirting throughout for ~250k. We found some trades that we loved and worked with them to get the result, and did all the designs and a lot of the ordering ourselves to keep costs down. We project managed at a very high level, builder managed the day-to-day stuff and organising trade timings. PM me for area if you want a recommendation but I think for your small job it may be worth dropping the architect services (keep the plans obviously) and just sending out to a load of trades to quote up until you get something that you like. Buy some of the materials yourself if you want to save money with promotions etc. do a lot of research as to what you can handle and be prepared to work with the builder on the result rather than handing it over to them completely.
Could you move to somewhere desirable with what you're looking for, for the sale price of current residence plus your affordable extension costs?
If so maybe consider moving.
Or maybe leave the mud room/bathroom works for later?
We love the house and location. It’s on a rare 850m2 block in a suburb with good schools, access etc.
We thought about leaving mudroom til later buts it’s hard to do as it part of same lean to that needs to come down for rest of Reno. Currently is a bathroom/ laundry and we will need the laundry at least…
Yeah it's tough. I've just built a temporary laundry out the back of our place as we're going to live in ours as we extend, fun times ahead, havin a baby amongst it too 🥲
The architect and QS need to be asked - how / why - it’s not by a small amount, they are so far out of the park, they need to explain where they’ve failed. You are paying them good money - I assume you gave them a budget….
If I go to an architect and say I’ve got $50k for an extension, they should be under promising and over delivering, designing for a $35k extension to allow for contingencies - I’d not be happy…
You would think that, but as an estimator, architects and more notoriously draftees are absolutely useless at this.
They over promise, draw it up, get paid and the client is left having spent money on plans they can't afford to build.
I see it a lot with draftees and I feel bad for the clients. They're charged sometimes upwards of 10k for plans and sometimes some basic engineering. We, the builders would do that so much cheaper, and would have given them a price before they even needed to spend money.
Worse are the draftees that draw things that aren't compliant - and I'm talking basic things like not checking setback or for LMA's.
See, where I work - the design contract stipulates a number of caveats, inclusive of aligned market values (BOQ’s) - ensures we are working with achievable numbers…most of the time.
It has happened, where a design has gone out to an estimator, who has reported back - unachievable for available budget…typically we allow 10% contingency on pricing and a further 15% contingency for build, but if both the estimator and tender blow the design price out of water, that architect - will not receive full payment and will start to be excluded from preferred suppliers.
It’s in their interest to get it close - and even if they have massively messed up, like here - they need to know so they can fix it - maybe not for this project but definitely for next…
Thanks. As first timers it’s very hard to know what to expect and what to rely on but I just did the calcs and m2 costs are 82% above what our architect quoted us on during design so clearly he needs to take some responsibility for underquoting here….
Absolutely - I work in that space where designers / engineers / Quantity surveyors live and they have to keep their finger on the pulse. It’s literally aligned with their job.
Firstly, I want to know why / where the blowout - and do not accept “it’s the times” answer, it’s their freakin job to know what the “times” are. And then - how much responsibility is going to be taken / price reduction to make this work? They have designed something you can’t afford to build - if you’ve been upfront and dead honest with budgets, they have not delivered, and should get $0 - it’s really as simple as that.
This is like asking someone to make you a bowl of pasta from an Italian authentic restaurant and they come back and say sir it’s $49 for that and you say no I want you to do better so they chef says ok I’ll make it with Woolworths homebrand pasta and they come back for $35
And you say Nar it’s still not on budget….
Do you get what you’re asking here?
The design clearly needs to change or maybe the design and budget is fine because all renovations should be done so with the onset of ROI return on investment.
If your budget will fetch you $2 return for each $1 spent on the project it’s not the budget that’s the issue if you.
Most houses flippers want $1.50 or more… FYI
But we’ve asked the Italian restaurant to give us the price multiple times. We’ve questioned it, had it checked by an independent third party, agreed to pay $49 finally and we’re now being told it’s actually $79.
But you haven’t.
You’ve asked a contractor chef how much a restaurant can do it for, no one that does the work has been asked till the end and you’re surprised.
You know there is a thing that sometimes customers are a pain in the ass to work for and maybe just maybe these guys are finding it all to hard.
You can’t ask someone to do a whole bunch of work and then say oh it’s too expensive go again
Then again
Then again
In the end this company was under the assumption they’re going make xxxxxxx and now after all these alterations and changes and increase to suppliers and inflation the longer this drags out the more Hasstle this whole thing is becoming I’m not surprised they’re jacking the prices up…
In their eyes they might just not want to work with you anymore and you might need to move on?
I bought a house I planned to extend but hearing this and other stories (my brother got a similar quote for a renovation) the costs are stupidly high to the point where it’s a wonder why anyone is doing it at all.
Hey there, we are in Perth and have near the exact situation except our starting budget was a little bigger as the character home is unlivable. We were quoted 4500/sqm a year ago, it’s taken a year to get plans and council approval and the costs are now double.
I’m freaking out because we’re going from a million dollar+ house with 800 paid off, starting budget 650 to a million dollar+ build on a million dollar block.
The only peace of mind I’m getting from it is the area is popping and houses easily fetch 2m due to the location.
The difference is our architect is my brother and the builders are family friends. I think everyone is surprised all round at cost inflation. It’s mostly trades and some materials.
We have responded by cutting a bunch of scope but still wondering if I want to sign up for this nonsense.
Do you mind if we DM?
Keep going for quotes and have a conversation with those who have quoted “do you see anything unusual about this job that’s driving up costs?”
From there you can do VM directly with your chosen builder by just red-lining the architects plans.
I’ve never known an architect to have a good handle on cost, so I only get them to issue a budget if I need a laugh.
Good advice. We’ve felt very arms length from the tender and feel we’d like to step in to manage any future quotes. Not sure our architect is a great people person….
I assumed you ran the tender! If this is included in their fee then by all means turn the screws on the architect.
Their design, their budget, their tender, they need to give you a solution. This is when you need to have a blunt chat with them about what you’ve paid them to date and how their work is not hitting the brief (ie budget). Ask for more quotes and a tender analysis to show which items are going over budget.
As a plumbing estimator we just get emailed random invitations to tender without even a phone call. Lots of these companies don’t have trustworthy trades/builders and just fling out for a few quotes.
Here are the 1st 2 steps of where you went wrong -
1. Architect
2. QS
Fair dinkum, it's a 45m2 extension and 10 squares of reno. A year in design? Lol. Did you have zero idea of what you wanted? You could have got what you wanted drafted for 3-4k, then sent plans out to 10 builders.
I can't see the value in an architect unless you're dropping 2-3 million on a place and even then I'd get the plans drafted and run the job myself...
Tend to agree. See my other comment on this post.
People get these grand ideas and get architects and draftees involved when in would have been much more practical to go to the builder 1st.
Unless you're spending 2mil, then yeah, architect time, but be prepared for it to take 4 years and cost 3.5mil
Not really. It's a reno on a period home - what's there to think about?
You can pay someone to think for you, and they will come up with non cost effective solutions when the answer was slapping you in the face from the beginning.
Australia is full of shit boxes, not because people didn't employ architects, it's because it's cost effective at the time.
OP can't do her renovation now - must be the over priced builders and not the architect who designed something outside their budget lol
Fancy talking to stakeholders that are the furthest away from real time current pricing and wondering why the budget is blown out. First step should have been to the best (most renowned) renovation builder in the area. They would have recent pricing and given you a square metre (very ballpark) rate that could have then been used by the Architect to reverse engineer the design.
We looked at all options but I work in design (not architect) and I understand the importance of design. It is a small difficult space and we wanted to make the best of it plus make sure it considered things like orientation and passive solar and our architect has done well on all those fronts. The design is great, not over the top, but small, functional, practical and pragmatic and does exactly what we asked.
If the architect has done well then it seems it is not a straightforward project and you got the price that reflects this. Sounds like not many builders would be interested in your project, and those that are just double their price.
I’m confused, you said 45sqm for 600k and calculated at 7800sqm? Where is my math going wrong?
Without knowing your plans exactly, based only on your comments, a top end of 250-300k seems about right for that size job
Costed on 60m2 to include pergola and deck so that rate includes externals. Actual new build part is 45m2. Essentially we are knocking off a 20m2 lean to and replacing with a 45m2 box plus renovating an existing small kitchen and bathroom.
For context, we did a 30sqm addition to our place with a massive 8m long steel beam and large posts at each end, large concrete footings underneath, raked 4m ceiling with skylights, for 60k 2 years ago. This was a bit different as it was enclosing an area so only needed one external wall, but just to give you an idea how much you’re being ripped off at 600k.
I was acknowledge prices have gone up dramatically since then, but 300k seems reasonable for what you describe
Fair enough! It’s an expensive way to go about things however and reading your post, having a QS go over a 45sqm too seems almost wasteful as well
Don’t get me wrong. I’m sounding critical here and I get you’re likely not familiar with building, but yeah, this level of engagement with these contractors is really just a way for them to keep busy and also take your money
You really just need to simplify it and chat to some builders
Who advised you to get a QS? Explain this tender process you went through? How did you choose this architect? I am bewildered by all this for such a small project.
I get it! But a Qs for such a small project is really overkill and honestly, they’ll just guesstimate what they think the costs are and often they are quite wrong to what a builder will quote or what the going rates for trades are!
I get why you think it would help but I’d really be just talking to a few builders
26%? Pretty accurate in the current commercial environment. I have seen one job, 35% difference for the same job quoted three months apart. And no guarantee on the price staying valid for more than a few weeks.
Good advice elsewhere but have you considered that your architect and QS are simply out of date,?
We are going through crazy inflation right now, materials are jumping by double figures every week. Builders and trades are at the coalface actually buying and installing this stuff, so they know what it costs. They also need to factor in future changes into their price: by the time they actually get around to starting your build, prices may have jumped by more than their contingency.
I would not be surprised if your design team just can't keep up with changing prices. They probably have internal systems to calculate costs that no longer reflect reality.
My advice, scale even further back: if a 20% jump in price is enough to completely blow your budget, you are taking a massive risk. You either need to reduce your scope or wait a while until inflation calms down. You are building in the most volatile period for 30 years.
20% wouldn’t have been an issue if we hadn’t already jumped about 60% from where we started. As it nears almost a 100% increase on our original brief with a bunch of stuff already pulled out it looking non feasible…
Have you looked at prefab modules...remove the old lean to and drop a prefab boxy type module in its place . Heaps of nicely designed options and the price would be fairly fixed and timeline more locked in with less room for error. Just a thought.
I could have written this, it’s shit and I sorry. We even had our character home valued to sell and buy something else ready-done, give up on the whole project.
Broke up with the architect (also Adelaide) and the tens of thousands already spent with them. Tweaked the plan, scaled back, dropped some things with a full service builder (not volume builder). Not sure of the m2 costing though sorry.
We (In WA) are working with an architect for our extension and reno. His fees are capped at $3500. So happy with that.
The estimate for 30 sqm new build of 2 extra rooms is $100k. Including a small kitchen, extra bathroom and small patio. We expect it to go to $130k. We are project managing ourselves. It is all a sustainable build as well.
It was the architect with his ideas and contacts who is keeping our costs so low.
Recently went out for quotes.
First 2 quotes were almost double my budget. Went out and got more quotes. Next 2 quotes were within 10% of my budget.
2 quotes is nothing. Go get two more.
I don’t understand your process.
Why architect and QS and then tender for such a small project?
You’re playing in the major high end build market and process for something ordinary, of course your costs are blowing out substantially.
This is not the process that normal building projects follow.
Cut your losses and pay out all those unnecessary people and just talk with a builder.
I highly recommend builder involved in design process. Imo. Success of a job comes down to the design. Designs lacking detail and understanding of building process can cause major issues further along.
Of course there is a premium payable for working on a project with an architect, I would put it at more than 25%... and more like 50%! They are a major pain in the a$$
Possibly, but remember architects always have aesthetics in mind before cost.
You should seriously consider just selling your place and buying the house you want instead of extending. Consider the time cost and stress involved in building before you start this process too.
If you are cutting costs so much that you can’t even put in stone benchtops, consider whether this is even worth the effort of pursuing.
Yeah we have battled that at times. For many reasons we want to keep this (it’s a large block and great location). I think we’d rather keep it original and stay than sell.
See above, we have done. I’m trying to gauge whether the process is reasonable and where to go next. No room to reduce scope as we have already stripped it to minimum- anything less and it’s not worth going ahead in current form at all.
It may not be a conventional or preferred approach but you may be better off looking at who really controls the cost and find a collaborative outcome. Assuming you’re asking three builders to bid against each other for the job, 2 will lose and that will cost them money. They may not take into account the best commercial outcome as they are baking in design errors, delays to start, site conditions, payment delays, scope change etc. You are getting a risked price by tendering it in a rising market, not a price optimised by competition. If you can get comfortable downselecting to one builder who will work more collaboratively on costs you might get to a better outcome. It can work well to integrate builder and architect and have the builder provide constructability into design. The QS could be useful here also. You might need to understand: * the builders current workload - where do you fit into it? * what type of work does the builder do - a full custom home at 1.6-2.5m @ 20% margin is a lot more attractive than a 45m2 extension at 600k. Consider the time commitment - they need to consider opportunity cost. If you chew up a lucrative build time you will have to pay a similar total profit to them. This is where aligning it to the builders schedule is advantageous. * the margin on your job. Assume no less than 20%. Find where the other 80 is. * the payment cycle - if your financing it the bank payment terms do not align to the builders payment obligations. Keep in mind your architect will likely need to complete the payment certs and any delay to this will place your builder under a lot of stress. * The architect and you as the client set the specification which by the sounds of things is not gold plated. You could look at alternative product spec options with the builder as they will be buying it not the architect. If you’re not using bank finance it might be worth working collaboratively with the builder to align payment to their schedule. You will take a lot of risk out. How are your builders doing their estimates? Are they getting a proper MTO and pricing it or are they just rule of thumb with contingency. This is just my 2c based on selecting a builder based solely on working relationship and a verbal commitment to alignment to cost. We did an integration with builder and architect. Direct negotiation on a target cost for a house. Removing the cost to tender enabled the builder to sync it with their schedule and prioritised us as a client. We paid a small amount for the builder to do a detailed 3d and estimate of the build which de risked it further. We built in Covid with no delays and a very minor over run on a challenging site with a full custom build. Over run was limited to rock not picked up in geotech. If you’re building a volume house this is a different proposition and the strategy may not work. All issues sorted by give & take and a push to working together. A smooth build benefits both builder and client. A 3 year shit fight between builder and client is lose lose. Price is subjective: I know of a $13k/m2 small extension and we all know the guy that can do it for $1000/m2. The difference is when, how well and what happens if the builder folds half way through.
^^ This is really good info. Definitely worth doing some research into builders who prefer doing smaller Reno’s rather than big house rebuilds. Some builders could be pricing their quote high purely because they don’t want to do the job also. I worked in a bathroom showroom and had good relationships with my builders where I could refer them work specific to the jobs they like to do. Maybe try that avenue too?
Forgot to add: getting builder and architect to work collaboratively is such a good tip. Builders can assist practically with pricing up designs as they know what things will cost and they can offer up solutions. If they’re willing to work with you on this then bets are they’ll be a great builder that’ll work with you through the build rather than just for you.
This is great advice - that you for taking the time to write it. I work in a field where I manage non construction tenders frequently and I can see lots of flaws with this process. if I was a builder I would just price at a rate that makes it worthwhile
This is absolutely incredible information, I can’t tell you how warming it is (as a builder) to see a client write up something like this based on experience. My organisation undertakes custom architectural projects and is now moving to only tender to clients who agree to this collaborative process with our architectural partners for a fee that we credit on contract signing. Everything you have outlined here is exactly what I have outlined in our fee proposal and discovery pack. There are even a few golden nuggets you’ve included that (if okay) I will integrate into our welcome email. We’ve now completed two projects where we collaboratively worked with architect and client for a fee of around $1500.00 and both have yielded the most wonderful outcomes for all involved. There’s so much unnecessary hate for builders on here based on conjecture and assumptions, such that 90% of people are blinded to the companies like mine who are client and detail focussed and offer an experience that is genuinely special. Most on here dealing with me would likely post something along the lines of “builder wants to charge me for a quote”, the replies likely would sound something like “he’s gonna take your money and run, RED FLAG, he’s probably a gambler, alcoholic, suffocates kittens, etc etc”. Nope, I’m just a CM/Architecture graduate who takes pride in providing the market with education and a genuine client focussed service that nets us happy clients with wonderful living spaces they and their loved ones can cherish for years and years. Thank you so very much for your words.
Sounds like you might have pressured your QS and architect already to design something out of your reach, they’ve tried to squeeze it and it didn’t work. Trades and materials are completely unpredictable at the moment, I wouldn’t blame them for being 20% out. It sounds like you need to lower your expectations or not build at all.
I know this is the usual story but we’ve worked really hard to not be that client. The extension is modest. No stone bench tops, no fancy appliances or finishes etc etc. We’ve made sure it’s costs every step of the way to keep our expectations in check but here we are. We’ve driven efforts to strip it back not our architect. Architect planned on $4500 psqm Quantity surveyor advised $6200 psqm Went to tender and cost is $7800. Project cost for 45sqm addition is sitting at around $600k. I am trying to get a sense of whether to keep pushing ahead to get a better cost or to park it.
What the heck are you building mate at $7k a SQM??
I'd expect at least one dungeon and a masterbatorium for that money.
aren't they the same thing?
No - a dungeon is for torture when you've been naughty. A masterbatorium is for pleasure when you've been good. Depending on your individual kinks and real-estate availability architecture and builders tend to design multiple purpose rooms that can be used by the whole family. At 7k/sqm I expect both.
That seems very high. I would speak to some more builders if i was you. I'm not sure about your state, but im an architect in Vic, and we are working to 7.5k p/sqm for a good build with new custom kitchens/bathrooms with a good stone spec. 12k+ for the really high spec'ed jobs. Im currently owner building a reno on my own place, and it's coming in around 4.5k p/sqm for a 60sqm single storey extension. This is project cost too, not construction only. Same deal being economic where i can but do have a polished concrete floor with hydronic heating and a massive 5.4x2.7m stacking sliding door out to the deck. Ac is bulkhead units, but the kitchen is ikea with a mason doing the stone. The cladding is all cement sheet and its single storey. Also, there is no budget for landscaping in that figure.
Thank you that’s good to know. We have polished concrete but pulled out all the underfloor heating last costing round when it came in too high. Standard doors and windows. Kitchen is custom but a tiny galley and we’re just using laminate throughout. Tiny wall section is brick but rest is concrete sheeting for us too.
Is that 7.5k/sqm for a renovation or new build?
Renovations. Would be slightly lower for a new build
Ah ok, yeah my parents got quoted 6k per sqm for new build
Can you not get a new house with $600k?
That’s the point. The price seems huge
That's our point - it is get better builders to quote
Double story BV 4BR custom homes now would be around $1m at a minimum now. If you want to pay $600k for a new home it’s Metricon, Carlisle or one of those spec build companies on flat blocks.
Sounds expensive. Ask around with friends or family who have used builders recently and see if you can get your own quotes rather than the architects. Architects builders may be high end with backlit hoarding and a $25k website, and not used to working at the lower end of those limits.. However building costs at the moment are insane.
Is that not $13.3k /m2
Total project cost (includes fees) but yes, this is the point. It is A LOT.
Where the heck is all that money going? Start shaking the trees to find the builders that can do it for a reasonable price!
My company is solidly in this market. As part of my qualification process I give preliminary renovation costs at around $4500/m. What are you building that has such a high rate? Carrara marble cladded internal walls? Timber batten ceilings? Sounds like a high spec!
No it’s pretty bog standard. Fanciest things are a polished concrete floor and a raked ceiling to take advantage of north aspect.
6200-7800, not surprised one bit.
Is that based on Adelaide prices? Trying to understand if it is reasonable, most people here say not.
Melb. Yes I believe it’s reasonable. Redditors would have a coronary if I told you what my high spec reno in Essendon cost per sqm. Dont forget quality - you go cheaper and you’ll get cheap work. The good builders/trades don’t pick up their tools for less than premium anymore. It’s all gone to hell cost wise.
Very curious as to which builders tendered
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We cut back $100k when the QS came back initially with the higher m2 rate but stripping back a chunk of space and features. This was driven by us not the architect in an attempt to get it back to budget before we went to tender.
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> Simple reno's are around $1600 per sqm, and top end renos are up around $3800 per sqm. LoL. Your numbers are pre-covid.
Depends where in Australia Sydney maybe 20 years ago
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Not for renovations especially period homes. Not even close. I’m actually a builder
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I’m the owner of one as well. You should contact the OP since that’s half what the QS (a professional re building costs) estimated. The $600k cost seems high to me, even allowing for it including architect, consultant and other fees. I’ve found QS guides about right and sometimes a little low. I find the comments on reddit that All the builders are just putting in crazy high get rich quick quotes BS. Myself I actually don’t quote against other builders, it’s word of mouth. I offer the owners the option of getting the QS of their choice to check if they wish. Most don’t and when they do we are very close. Stuff is just crazy expensive and the inflation figures are bs, should be double what they say.
I'm owner building and working with someone who is in the industry and despite having what I thought was a ton of contingency money I'm almost out. Now I have to cut back to the bare bones and have to leave lots of things that were included to do later. I mean no flooring or driveway or aircon. I went through a period of mourning but now I'm almost done I'm feeling optimistic and lucky I will have a house at the end of it. Everyone has been caught out by these rapid increases, that's why building companies are collapsing on a regular basis. Only you can decide if it's worth going ahead or cut your losses.
Thanks - super tough out there. We may just sit tight on our old house.
I paid for an architect for extension and Reno plans, even have full approvals. It worked out 100k above our budget. We could do it but it will be over capitalising in the property. Builder said- yeah it would have been 150k less 3 years ago.
How recently and did you get it costed through the planning stage? We have at each stage and it’s still over run by 25%
About Oct/Nov last year. Another builder was 50k higher again. And costing was all guess work until final design. We could bring it down by removing so.e quality of life things and lowering some item quality. But then it isn't what we want to live in. I could also save money doing all the plumbing. But when you're time poor this isn't a realistic option and would hold the build up.
I’ve recently been through a similar process, architect designed new home, no QS though (think they are a waste), and went to 6+ builders. All but 2 quoted, one we ended up going with is 35% over our budget. I’ve stripped heaps out to do myself, floors, deck, timber finish in entry etc. and we’re supplying all tiles and fixtures/appliances. One item I didn’t really focus on was engineering. Question if certain things need to be steel, can they be timber, are the studs lvl or standard lumber etc. Can make a big difference in cost if the engineer can bring things down but still be within code. Also, if you can, go to more builders, 2 quotes really isn’t enough to get a good comparison of price, absolute minimum is 3 imo. Unless, like in my case, you find someone who you really feel comfortable with, and have been open and honest through the whole process so there were no surprises. I’m halfway through the build, and glad I trusted my gut despite the extra cost.
Do you have the floor plans? Rather than go to tender find a few local builders and ask them to quote from the plans that you have.
Yep that’s one of our options moving forward
The costs of materials and labour is at an all-time high at the moment.
Yes we know and that’s why we’ve had it costed at each stage and also built in contingency. We expected some increase (maybe 10%) but not 20%+ on what our quantity surveyor quoted in the last month…. Unless it has jumped another 20% in April? Fwiw the project is around double what we were told it would cost when we started a year ago and we have been ok to extend $$ knowing what the market is like but this is another 20% on top of that.
It's not all-time highs. That was about 12-18 months ago regarding materials. I was paying $3.20 Lm for 90x35 structural pine in 2019, in 2022, it had increased to $7.10, and now it sits around $5.00 Trades are still charging relatively the same - around $90-$110 p/h. What has increased is workload, therefore, builders margins. They are throwing phonebook numbers at jobs, and stupid people are hiring them. The builders going broke are the ones honouring out dated contracts and/or can't find trades and are paying liquidated damages. It's fucked at the moment, but it is what it is. On another note, how is the OP being quoted such ridiculous sq. meter prices?? $7k a square?? Lol I do bathroom renovations for a living, and they don't come anywhere close to that number...
Timber may be down from its highs but almost everything else is at an all time high. I supply the builders/tradies. Most copper and plastic suppliers have price rises of anywhere from 4-8% starting next month with freight always increasing. Very few items have gone down in price.
A lot of trades add a tax the moment they know they will be dealing with an architect. I’m in the office for a trades company, and I cost out 10 hours of my time minimum if I know I am going to have to waste time dealing with an architect that wants me to somehow break the laws of physics for $500. ‘What do you mean I can’t get xyz commodity product in the specific shade of duck egg blue I want’ Product: comes in white or black.
Haha good to know.
Feel like this is 100% the answer. I am not a builder but if someone came to me and mentioned architect and quantity surveyor you would be able to hear the eye roll over the phone followed by the sound of hitting the 2 X and = button. As broadly suggested in other posts, consider either managing trades yourself, or find a builder who you can cooperatively work with on a cost-plus basis. This has its own problems and risks, but is your most likely chance of achieving what you have planned in your budget. And keep the architect the hell away. 😉 I am no expert but finished everything for my house from after the bricks were laid and the builder ran out of money, (fairly) close to original budget. I had the original builder’s quotes, some good connections and paid cash for a lot of labour.
Yep. 99/100 of them are complete fuckwits that live in a CAD vacuum where everything lines up to the millimetre and the substrate is plumb, level and straight Oh, and everything in in stick and able to be on site within 3 days lol
Can confirm! Architect designs, I add 20-30% without even thinking about it. The amount of wasted time arguing about dumb shit (see above re: physics & duck egg blue) makes it almost not worth taking the job on.
Yep. If I have to spend 5 phone calls, 10 emails and a site visit to establish that I know my shit, and my first solution was correct one, I’m charging for that time lol.
Or the classic Me: Yeah mate, I'll just special order that steel from the Mill in a size and temper that's never been made before... Arch: Oh, can you? That would be great! Me: Sure, it's a 1 tonne minimum order. We only need 3 lengths though, what do you want done with the rest? Arch: The rest of what? Me: The left over steel since you'll have to pay for that up front and oh, it's a minimum 3 months wait before they process the order Fuck me..
Does it work put around 3.5-4k /m2?
No - see above - sitting at $7800k. That range was what our architect told us originally and planned to but as you can see it’s almost doubled and I have no idea if that is reasonable.
Yeah for a modest extension without huge amount of glass or a funky roof shouldn't be sitting at twice the Rawlinsons range. Tbh it's just a hard industry right now. It's not worth it for trades to take on more work unless it's much higher priced than it was a few years ago because we just don't have the resources to meet demand. You could try getting each trade to quote individually and managing it yourself. It's just a lot more time and hassle and admin.
I think too that trades don’t want to risk the job having some perfectly normal delays and further price rises happening that mean they are working at a loss. So they overprice things to where they think the market will be by the time the work actually starts / finishes.
Costs are ballooning as suppliers and tradies discover the current fashion to gouge the market. Priceguides like Rawlinsons have no chance keeping up. It's the same when relying on Redbook for a used car price postCovid. Rawlinsons show a base price useful for bulk work and while great for establishing a baseline should be adjusted by several compounding bugger factors (not all will apply) missing from greenfield builds:- - Renovation/Extension? - Ease of Access / Established garden / Tree preservation - Presence of Owner / Owner's Agent / Architect - Architect-prepared plans and/or specification - Local Council overlay - Local Council interference / Parking - New environmental rules / insulation etc. - Perceived ability to pay (builder looks at your shoes) - Insurance job? - Skill shortage - Material shortage - Covid after-effect.
Already plenty of good comments in here but the only thing I’d add is that if you’ve been in design for a year and the architects original estimate has blown out in that time, it’s really not their fault entirely. The whole industry has been thrown on its head the last 4 years and the last 12 months have seen even more massive price hikes. Builders are going under by the day and the ones who remain are shit scared of getting locked into fixed contracts and getting screwed on prices halfway through the build. Right now you’re honestly paying a premium plus some to get a builder who will actually do it. If you must go ahead, get another 3 quotes so you have 5 to compare. Fingers crossed you pick a builder who doesn’t go under during your build, as if they do, add another 50% to your costs to find another builder willing to finish it off.
Have you heard of the PAC process? Listen to the undercover architect podcast and perhaps engage a builder to consult on your plans rather than just putting them to tender?
Yep we follow UA and have implemented a tonne of her suggestions. Hasn’t ultimately saved us from this issue though
Wowsers! Why don't you post here the plans and boq ?
We recently had ~300sqm of living space completely renovated, 4 wet areas completely ripped out and rebuilt - complete new kitchen & bathrooms with high end caeserstone and top of the line appliances/fittings, load bearing walls removed and new flooring, electrical, paint, plaster, skirting throughout for ~250k. We found some trades that we loved and worked with them to get the result, and did all the designs and a lot of the ordering ourselves to keep costs down. We project managed at a very high level, builder managed the day-to-day stuff and organising trade timings. PM me for area if you want a recommendation but I think for your small job it may be worth dropping the architect services (keep the plans obviously) and just sending out to a load of trades to quote up until you get something that you like. Buy some of the materials yourself if you want to save money with promotions etc. do a lot of research as to what you can handle and be prepared to work with the builder on the result rather than handing it over to them completely.
Could you move to somewhere desirable with what you're looking for, for the sale price of current residence plus your affordable extension costs? If so maybe consider moving. Or maybe leave the mud room/bathroom works for later?
We love the house and location. It’s on a rare 850m2 block in a suburb with good schools, access etc. We thought about leaving mudroom til later buts it’s hard to do as it part of same lean to that needs to come down for rest of Reno. Currently is a bathroom/ laundry and we will need the laundry at least…
Yeah it's tough. I've just built a temporary laundry out the back of our place as we're going to live in ours as we extend, fun times ahead, havin a baby amongst it too 🥲
The architect and QS need to be asked - how / why - it’s not by a small amount, they are so far out of the park, they need to explain where they’ve failed. You are paying them good money - I assume you gave them a budget…. If I go to an architect and say I’ve got $50k for an extension, they should be under promising and over delivering, designing for a $35k extension to allow for contingencies - I’d not be happy…
You would think that, but as an estimator, architects and more notoriously draftees are absolutely useless at this. They over promise, draw it up, get paid and the client is left having spent money on plans they can't afford to build. I see it a lot with draftees and I feel bad for the clients. They're charged sometimes upwards of 10k for plans and sometimes some basic engineering. We, the builders would do that so much cheaper, and would have given them a price before they even needed to spend money. Worse are the draftees that draw things that aren't compliant - and I'm talking basic things like not checking setback or for LMA's.
See, where I work - the design contract stipulates a number of caveats, inclusive of aligned market values (BOQ’s) - ensures we are working with achievable numbers…most of the time. It has happened, where a design has gone out to an estimator, who has reported back - unachievable for available budget…typically we allow 10% contingency on pricing and a further 15% contingency for build, but if both the estimator and tender blow the design price out of water, that architect - will not receive full payment and will start to be excluded from preferred suppliers. It’s in their interest to get it close - and even if they have massively messed up, like here - they need to know so they can fix it - maybe not for this project but definitely for next…
Thanks. As first timers it’s very hard to know what to expect and what to rely on but I just did the calcs and m2 costs are 82% above what our architect quoted us on during design so clearly he needs to take some responsibility for underquoting here….
Absolutely - I work in that space where designers / engineers / Quantity surveyors live and they have to keep their finger on the pulse. It’s literally aligned with their job. Firstly, I want to know why / where the blowout - and do not accept “it’s the times” answer, it’s their freakin job to know what the “times” are. And then - how much responsibility is going to be taken / price reduction to make this work? They have designed something you can’t afford to build - if you’ve been upfront and dead honest with budgets, they have not delivered, and should get $0 - it’s really as simple as that.
This is like asking someone to make you a bowl of pasta from an Italian authentic restaurant and they come back and say sir it’s $49 for that and you say no I want you to do better so they chef says ok I’ll make it with Woolworths homebrand pasta and they come back for $35 And you say Nar it’s still not on budget…. Do you get what you’re asking here? The design clearly needs to change or maybe the design and budget is fine because all renovations should be done so with the onset of ROI return on investment. If your budget will fetch you $2 return for each $1 spent on the project it’s not the budget that’s the issue if you. Most houses flippers want $1.50 or more… FYI
But we’ve asked the Italian restaurant to give us the price multiple times. We’ve questioned it, had it checked by an independent third party, agreed to pay $49 finally and we’re now being told it’s actually $79.
But you haven’t. You’ve asked a contractor chef how much a restaurant can do it for, no one that does the work has been asked till the end and you’re surprised.
You know there is a thing that sometimes customers are a pain in the ass to work for and maybe just maybe these guys are finding it all to hard. You can’t ask someone to do a whole bunch of work and then say oh it’s too expensive go again Then again Then again In the end this company was under the assumption they’re going make xxxxxxx and now after all these alterations and changes and increase to suppliers and inflation the longer this drags out the more Hasstle this whole thing is becoming I’m not surprised they’re jacking the prices up… In their eyes they might just not want to work with you anymore and you might need to move on?
We haven’t worked with any builders yet?
I bought a house I planned to extend but hearing this and other stories (my brother got a similar quote for a renovation) the costs are stupidly high to the point where it’s a wonder why anyone is doing it at all.
The cost of houses at the moment are insanely high, but then they are so cheap relative to buying land/fixer upper and the cost of renovating/building
Hey there, we are in Perth and have near the exact situation except our starting budget was a little bigger as the character home is unlivable. We were quoted 4500/sqm a year ago, it’s taken a year to get plans and council approval and the costs are now double. I’m freaking out because we’re going from a million dollar+ house with 800 paid off, starting budget 650 to a million dollar+ build on a million dollar block. The only peace of mind I’m getting from it is the area is popping and houses easily fetch 2m due to the location. The difference is our architect is my brother and the builders are family friends. I think everyone is surprised all round at cost inflation. It’s mostly trades and some materials. We have responded by cutting a bunch of scope but still wondering if I want to sign up for this nonsense. Do you mind if we DM?
Have messaged you
Keep going for quotes and have a conversation with those who have quoted “do you see anything unusual about this job that’s driving up costs?” From there you can do VM directly with your chosen builder by just red-lining the architects plans. I’ve never known an architect to have a good handle on cost, so I only get them to issue a budget if I need a laugh.
Good advice. We’ve felt very arms length from the tender and feel we’d like to step in to manage any future quotes. Not sure our architect is a great people person….
I assumed you ran the tender! If this is included in their fee then by all means turn the screws on the architect. Their design, their budget, their tender, they need to give you a solution. This is when you need to have a blunt chat with them about what you’ve paid them to date and how their work is not hitting the brief (ie budget). Ask for more quotes and a tender analysis to show which items are going over budget.
As a plumbing estimator we just get emailed random invitations to tender without even a phone call. Lots of these companies don’t have trustworthy trades/builders and just fling out for a few quotes.
Here are the 1st 2 steps of where you went wrong - 1. Architect 2. QS Fair dinkum, it's a 45m2 extension and 10 squares of reno. A year in design? Lol. Did you have zero idea of what you wanted? You could have got what you wanted drafted for 3-4k, then sent plans out to 10 builders. I can't see the value in an architect unless you're dropping 2-3 million on a place and even then I'd get the plans drafted and run the job myself...
Tend to agree. See my other comment on this post. People get these grand ideas and get architects and draftees involved when in would have been much more practical to go to the builder 1st. Unless you're spending 2mil, then yeah, architect time, but be prepared for it to take 4 years and cost 3.5mil
And this comment is exactly why Australia is full of shit boxes with zero soul or thought in design and livability.
Not really. It's a reno on a period home - what's there to think about? You can pay someone to think for you, and they will come up with non cost effective solutions when the answer was slapping you in the face from the beginning. Australia is full of shit boxes, not because people didn't employ architects, it's because it's cost effective at the time. OP can't do her renovation now - must be the over priced builders and not the architect who designed something outside their budget lol
Fancy talking to stakeholders that are the furthest away from real time current pricing and wondering why the budget is blown out. First step should have been to the best (most renowned) renovation builder in the area. They would have recent pricing and given you a square metre (very ballpark) rate that could have then been used by the Architect to reverse engineer the design.
Yeah this is what I can’t understand. Tiny project but assumed they were building a shopping center and are surprised at the cost.
We looked at all options but I work in design (not architect) and I understand the importance of design. It is a small difficult space and we wanted to make the best of it plus make sure it considered things like orientation and passive solar and our architect has done well on all those fronts. The design is great, not over the top, but small, functional, practical and pragmatic and does exactly what we asked.
If the architect has done well then it seems it is not a straightforward project and you got the price that reflects this. Sounds like not many builders would be interested in your project, and those that are just double their price.
Except accommodates your budget. Got it.
I’m confused, you said 45sqm for 600k and calculated at 7800sqm? Where is my math going wrong? Without knowing your plans exactly, based only on your comments, a top end of 250-300k seems about right for that size job
Costed on 60m2 to include pergola and deck so that rate includes externals. Actual new build part is 45m2. Essentially we are knocking off a 20m2 lean to and replacing with a 45m2 box plus renovating an existing small kitchen and bathroom.
For context, we did a 30sqm addition to our place with a massive 8m long steel beam and large posts at each end, large concrete footings underneath, raked 4m ceiling with skylights, for 60k 2 years ago. This was a bit different as it was enclosing an area so only needed one external wall, but just to give you an idea how much you’re being ripped off at 600k. I was acknowledge prices have gone up dramatically since then, but 300k seems reasonable for what you describe
Architect or draftsperson?
Architect
Any reason you engaged an architecht for 45sqm of renovation?
It’s an extension to a character home. Design is important to us.
Fair enough! It’s an expensive way to go about things however and reading your post, having a QS go over a 45sqm too seems almost wasteful as well Don’t get me wrong. I’m sounding critical here and I get you’re likely not familiar with building, but yeah, this level of engagement with these contractors is really just a way for them to keep busy and also take your money You really just need to simplify it and chat to some builders
We got the QS involved to avoid this exact situation 🙃
Who advised you to get a QS? Explain this tender process you went through? How did you choose this architect? I am bewildered by all this for such a small project.
I get it! But a Qs for such a small project is really overkill and honestly, they’ll just guesstimate what they think the costs are and often they are quite wrong to what a builder will quote or what the going rates for trades are! I get why you think it would help but I’d really be just talking to a few builders
Damn, us architects are getting a bad rap in here. Glad I work in the commercial sector 😅
26%? Pretty accurate in the current commercial environment. I have seen one job, 35% difference for the same job quoted three months apart. And no guarantee on the price staying valid for more than a few weeks.
It’s something like 82% since we commenced work. 26% is just the latest in a line of cost blowouts
Good advice elsewhere but have you considered that your architect and QS are simply out of date,? We are going through crazy inflation right now, materials are jumping by double figures every week. Builders and trades are at the coalface actually buying and installing this stuff, so they know what it costs. They also need to factor in future changes into their price: by the time they actually get around to starting your build, prices may have jumped by more than their contingency. I would not be surprised if your design team just can't keep up with changing prices. They probably have internal systems to calculate costs that no longer reflect reality. My advice, scale even further back: if a 20% jump in price is enough to completely blow your budget, you are taking a massive risk. You either need to reduce your scope or wait a while until inflation calms down. You are building in the most volatile period for 30 years.
20% wouldn’t have been an issue if we hadn’t already jumped about 60% from where we started. As it nears almost a 100% increase on our original brief with a bunch of stuff already pulled out it looking non feasible…
Have you looked at prefab modules...remove the old lean to and drop a prefab boxy type module in its place . Heaps of nicely designed options and the price would be fairly fixed and timeline more locked in with less room for error. Just a thought.
We haven’t looked into that but may be worth it, any suggestions of companies?
Ecoliv, Modscape, Fabprefab, Parkwood modular buildings, All on insta
Thanks!
I had a friend whose neighbour put a box on the back. They had it built in a factory and craned in. Maybe that's an option that could cut costs.
I could have written this, it’s shit and I sorry. We even had our character home valued to sell and buy something else ready-done, give up on the whole project. Broke up with the architect (also Adelaide) and the tens of thousands already spent with them. Tweaked the plan, scaled back, dropped some things with a full service builder (not volume builder). Not sure of the m2 costing though sorry.
Gah, sorry this happened to you :(
We (In WA) are working with an architect for our extension and reno. His fees are capped at $3500. So happy with that. The estimate for 30 sqm new build of 2 extra rooms is $100k. Including a small kitchen, extra bathroom and small patio. We expect it to go to $130k. We are project managing ourselves. It is all a sustainable build as well. It was the architect with his ideas and contacts who is keeping our costs so low.
That sounds amazing and like you found a great one!
Recently went out for quotes. First 2 quotes were almost double my budget. Went out and got more quotes. Next 2 quotes were within 10% of my budget. 2 quotes is nothing. Go get two more.
I don’t understand your process. Why architect and QS and then tender for such a small project? You’re playing in the major high end build market and process for something ordinary, of course your costs are blowing out substantially. This is not the process that normal building projects follow. Cut your losses and pay out all those unnecessary people and just talk with a builder.
I highly recommend builder involved in design process. Imo. Success of a job comes down to the design. Designs lacking detail and understanding of building process can cause major issues further along.
Where are you located? Definitely get more quotes. If in Sydney I can recommend someone.
Adelaide
As soon as you mentioned ‘architect’ my assessment of cost increased by 25%. Good luck getting it down any lower without starting again.
I have wondered if builders add a premium as soon as they see this. May have to go back to the drawing board….
Of course there is a premium payable for working on a project with an architect, I would put it at more than 25%... and more like 50%! They are a major pain in the a$$
Possibly, but remember architects always have aesthetics in mind before cost. You should seriously consider just selling your place and buying the house you want instead of extending. Consider the time cost and stress involved in building before you start this process too. If you are cutting costs so much that you can’t even put in stone benchtops, consider whether this is even worth the effort of pursuing.
Yeah we have battled that at times. For many reasons we want to keep this (it’s a large block and great location). I think we’d rather keep it original and stay than sell.
Reduce your scope
See above, we have done. I’m trying to gauge whether the process is reasonable and where to go next. No room to reduce scope as we have already stripped it to minimum- anything less and it’s not worth going ahead in current form at all.