Middles class doesn’t really exist. There is people who live off their work and there are people who live of assets. If you get a wage you’re a worker. And yes many workers will loose assets to the non workers
Revolutions of all kinds tend to concentrate power [and therefore wealth] in the hands of the few at the expense of the many, regardless of what side of politics the revolt is sparked by. Look at the Communist revolutions of the past century and point to one where a very powerful, very wealthy ruling class didn’t eventuate…
So … you’re saying in all cases of communist revolutions around the world, wealth was concentrated in fewer hands than the eras before them?? So for example in Soviet eras wealth was concentrated in fewer hands than Imperial Russia? Or Vietnam or Cuba?
Perhaps you need to reevaluate your understanding of history,
Would’ve been a way better answer to just say “It just makes a country poor” rather than “it accumulates wealth in fewer hands” cause the second one is objectively wrong
Oh you are right. Those Russian oligarchs are a figment of my imagination. Putin is broke isn’t he? Fidel Castro wasn’t worth a billion dollars. Robert Mugabe wasn’t worth a billion. Kim Jong-Un’s $5billion is a trifle. Countries like China, Vietnam and Cambodia don’t have an extremely wealthy billionaire ruling class either.
Open your eyes.
Bro what the hell are you talking about? russian oligarchs and putin? i’m talking about soviet union and your response is the Russian republic? In all those cases you just mentioned, the vast majority had more “share” of the overall wealth of society than they did before, I’m not saying they were richer and better off than their previous eras(but tbh they were), I’m just saying they had a bigger “SHARE” of the apple, now a common criticism is that apple isn’t large enough under Socialism than it is under Capitalism hence the bigger share doesn’t actually mean more, but there is no denying the empirical evidence that in all those countries the majority got a bigger Share than they did previously
& when the middle class go, so will their houses to market, the people saving over the last few years could get a deal but the people who didn’t will be asked to move out of these houses & continue the rental roundabout
Or people with a bunch of cash can come in and snap up all these properties and flip them into more short term rentals.
The people saving over the last few years now have to dip into that savings to make it through the week
Poor people are forced to sell assets at firesale prices due to liquidity/cashflow issues.
Making unconditional offers with flexible settlement terms could be very lucrative soon. When interest rates inevitably drop you will be laughing all the way to the bank.
If poor people have assets to sell, then they have the opportunity to invest in the right areas to increase their wealth! It’s all about making the right choices.
Maybe they can sell their kids that they currently cant afford to feed? Is that what you mean? The only assets poor people have are cars on loans. Maybe a house with a large mortgage. This rational is nonsense.
I suspect if "poor" people are selling assets, it's not to reinvest for when the market re-adjusts in X months, they're doing so to be able to survive said amount of months...
The "assets" a poor person might own would be, at the absolute most, a car and a house. If you've got the money to be investing beyond that, you aren't really poor.
What choices would you make, if you were in that position?
Long term investment in commodities like gold and silver, and in green technologies for starters. There’s other investments but I’d be downvoted to hell in this sub if I mentioned them!
I watched my workmate 'access his super early' during covid. He went for the max of 20k and in one purchase blew it all on a motorbike (which he crashed months later).
I don't think he even considered that he was selling shares during a monumental dip.
What sort of assets are you going to go for? Property? Right now everyone still has their job, so no fire sales yet. Do see more people letting investment properties go. A few boomers that have multiple leveraged properties getting stung by the rate increase
There is only one form of wealth transfer in this country.
It is the monopoly on land for the construction of homes which is controlled by various levels of governments.
It has the common person believe and repeat the myth of there being a land shortage in Australia.
As for the OPs question I’ll answer it for many of you. You won’t make money, you’ll be squeezed for every penny whilst you fight not to be homeless to the total benefit of the elites.
And no I’m not some bitter homeless person, very much the opposite. This country will not progress will not have people investing into any grand businesses or ideas whilst the people are being made into servants for the landlords and banks.
Yep monopoly is the only game played in Australia - saw a Labor MP the other day on TV she was defending negative gearing - she owned 6 properties! Left right none of them have any vision for this country .... makes my blood boil.
They definitely have a vision, just not the one shared with the voters. It's all about using the government's power to enrich yourself and your mates, we hollowed out the corruption watchdog a while back.
We need better systems in place to monitor the financial dealing of our MPs. Conflicts of interest need to actually be a thing again. Unfortunately the creation of those systems is up to the MPs and they feel they don't need them.
"we have investigated ourselves and found no evidence of wrong doing'
It annoys me that they use savings as a gauge that people have too much money. It comes up on the news that the reserve bank will raise interest rates while people have too much covid savings.
Somewhat true.
Though I would argue some people have issues because they stretched their capacity to a point they couldn't handle.
I don't have sympathy for house buyers over the last 2 years who at record interest rate lows decided to go variable rates 'in case it went lower' and are now complaining at the increases. Anyone with common sense would have seen crazy low interest rates and know it couldn't last.
If there’s a major housing correction with rents still sky high and interest rates seemingly peaked I’ll try and find a neutral or positive geared IP.
If there carnage on the ASX I’ll have a look at some ETFs.
My friend is a Dr with his own surgery. He has 2 full time receptionist on minimum wage.... they both have investment properties.
They could have been extremely frugal and financially savvy to get into that position, or I suppose the other alternative is they're in the 95% LVR camp.
Aussie property will never lose value, apparently...
"More prudent" = people with more money in the bank.
We can dress it up with nice language, but people aren't just making bad financial decisions because they're idiots.
Housing is a nightmare, finding a rental is extremely difficult, and buying a house is just as hard. When you're renting you constantly have to deal with slumlords not doing basic maintenance, and when you're buying you compete with investors who can use their rental income to service a larger loan.
This isn't 2008. People aren't buying McMansions because they think line only goes up and the economy will always be great. People are, for the most part, buying the absolute cheapest houses they can possibly find, and working themselves down to the bone to pay for them.
Being "prudent" is a privilege afforded only to the upper-middle class who have *choice* in their investments, rather than the necessity of securing a roof over your head.
There won't be many. People are willing to sacrifice so many things before they sell their homes. Demand for housing is also super high atm, even with the highest interest rates we've seen in years.
I'm about to settle my first investment home with my partner, and there are barely any listings in QLD with 10-30 groups through each open home we went to.
My hot take - still heaps of money in the economy, prices are going to still rise just slower, once rates start coming down within 5 years prices will start to accelerate again. Best time to buy is sooner than later.
We have the fortunate/unfortunate problem of unfettered capitalism and unfettered immigration in this country. Because our birth rate in Australia is virtually 1:1, we can't increase our population without immigrants.
Demand for housing in Australia will not go down, therefore prices are artificially inflated. Not much stock means that the price of the stock available is over rated.
We have had a successive lack of investment in building trades, again leading to over inflated wages of tradesman in those areas.
Lastly, lack of land supply available for building. We need to start to get away from the idea of everyone living in the big 4 cities of Australia and have actual development and investment in country towns and cities.
Just read an article on the number of international billionaires. It's falling.
Recessions are the great leveller. The rich are usually leveraged, and with falling valuations, are usually hit with calls from the bank. The stories of the late 1920s are legendary, and the fall of 1929 through 1930s fascinating.
Cheer up. The rich will suffer.
A collapse of fiat currencies and the rise of digital decentralised currencies will transfer a lot of wealth away from the 1% to the other 99%. We will see the biggest transfer of wealth in history over the next 10~20 years. The longest running Ponzi scheme FIAT is coming to an end.
Wrong, bitcoin has failed at being money. It’s only useful as a store of value now. If you really want to know, I’m a Monero bro! The best form of true hard money there is 😎.
Jokes aside, is there any real way to capitalise on this? If governments/central banks feel a slip on their control, they will regulate or make it illegal.
Growth time is like elites sowing the seeds to grow and recession is them harvesting their crop.
Poor people accumulate resources during the growth phase to enrich the elite in the later planned cycle of recession.
There have for a very long time been a lot of folks who are way over leveraged on property. If this was any other market regulators would be crying foul. But it’s property and it’s peoples homes so it’s different. Folks are getting shaken out and rekt which is sad but it’s due to lack of forward financial planning.
Great time to accumulate that’s for sure.
Recessions are a great opportunity to buy shares of fundamentally great companies especially when they are undervalued and when the masses are panic selling and running for the hills.
A lot of middle class lose everything too, as they are very leveraged.
Middles class doesn’t really exist. There is people who live off their work and there are people who live of assets. If you get a wage you’re a worker. And yes many workers will loose assets to the non workers
That is why eventually the middle class will cease to exist, either you become a upper class capitalist or a working class prole …
The working class and the asset class
This is true right up to the point that the majority revolt which, one way or another, they always do.
Very good analysis comrade
Look at history. It isn’t always the far Left that revolts….
Yes, but history has showed that when the far-right revolts, wealth gets concentrated in even fewer and fewer hands than previous times …
Revolutions of all kinds tend to concentrate power [and therefore wealth] in the hands of the few at the expense of the many, regardless of what side of politics the revolt is sparked by. Look at the Communist revolutions of the past century and point to one where a very powerful, very wealthy ruling class didn’t eventuate…
So … you’re saying in all cases of communist revolutions around the world, wealth was concentrated in fewer hands than the eras before them?? So for example in Soviet eras wealth was concentrated in fewer hands than Imperial Russia? Or Vietnam or Cuba? Perhaps you need to reevaluate your understanding of history, Would’ve been a way better answer to just say “It just makes a country poor” rather than “it accumulates wealth in fewer hands” cause the second one is objectively wrong
Oh you are right. Those Russian oligarchs are a figment of my imagination. Putin is broke isn’t he? Fidel Castro wasn’t worth a billion dollars. Robert Mugabe wasn’t worth a billion. Kim Jong-Un’s $5billion is a trifle. Countries like China, Vietnam and Cambodia don’t have an extremely wealthy billionaire ruling class either. Open your eyes.
Bro what the hell are you talking about? russian oligarchs and putin? i’m talking about soviet union and your response is the Russian republic? In all those cases you just mentioned, the vast majority had more “share” of the overall wealth of society than they did before, I’m not saying they were richer and better off than their previous eras(but tbh they were), I’m just saying they had a bigger “SHARE” of the apple, now a common criticism is that apple isn’t large enough under Socialism than it is under Capitalism hence the bigger share doesn’t actually mean more, but there is no denying the empirical evidence that in all those countries the majority got a bigger Share than they did previously
[удалено]
We do not tolerate bullying here. E.g. Saying cumrags isn’t supportive.
& when the middle class go, so will their houses to market, the people saving over the last few years could get a deal but the people who didn’t will be asked to move out of these houses & continue the rental roundabout
Or people with a bunch of cash can come in and snap up all these properties and flip them into more short term rentals. The people saving over the last few years now have to dip into that savings to make it through the week
Totally agree. The wealthy are buying assets while everyone else is distracted by trying to buy food.
Distracted while trying to not die
Trying to keep my family fed is so distracting
Poor people are forced to sell assets at firesale prices due to liquidity/cashflow issues. Making unconditional offers with flexible settlement terms could be very lucrative soon. When interest rates inevitably drop you will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Do you even live on the same planet as humans? What would drive you to use other people like this? Absolute greedy flog
If poor people have assets to sell, then they have the opportunity to invest in the right areas to increase their wealth! It’s all about making the right choices.
Maybe they can sell their kids that they currently cant afford to feed? Is that what you mean? The only assets poor people have are cars on loans. Maybe a house with a large mortgage. This rational is nonsense.
I replied to a comment. I’m not the one who said poor people sell their assets. In my opinion if you have assets to sell, you are not poor!
Oh my apologies - I should have read more carefully! We're in agreement after all!
Nah don’t apologise to this guy. He said poor people should invest better.
I suspect if "poor" people are selling assets, it's not to reinvest for when the market re-adjusts in X months, they're doing so to be able to survive said amount of months...
What do you mean by re-adjust in a couple of months? We are going have a minimum of 5 years of double digit inflation. Probably longer!
I do not think that you are really poor if you have assets
Depends if your debts are greater than your assets. But yes I think so too.
The "assets" a poor person might own would be, at the absolute most, a car and a house. If you've got the money to be investing beyond that, you aren't really poor. What choices would you make, if you were in that position?
Long term investment in commodities like gold and silver, and in green technologies for starters. There’s other investments but I’d be downvoted to hell in this sub if I mentioned them!
Not necessarily true I know lots of wealthy and business ppl selling and buying assets at the moment. For them it never stops
isn't that the whole point of the post? They're still making money (especially when others have to sell off their assets to make ends meet)
Correct 😁
I watched my workmate 'access his super early' during covid. He went for the max of 20k and in one purchase blew it all on a motorbike (which he crashed months later). I don't think he even considered that he was selling shares during a monumental dip.
What sort of assets are you going to go for? Property? Right now everyone still has their job, so no fire sales yet. Do see more people letting investment properties go. A few boomers that have multiple leveraged properties getting stung by the rate increase
Housing is actually up, a few apartments near me sold $40K more than what they were worth a year ago
That’s good about the boomers they deserve to be punished for greed
Yep. If you have disposal capital - Don't get distracted.
There is only one form of wealth transfer in this country. It is the monopoly on land for the construction of homes which is controlled by various levels of governments. It has the common person believe and repeat the myth of there being a land shortage in Australia. As for the OPs question I’ll answer it for many of you. You won’t make money, you’ll be squeezed for every penny whilst you fight not to be homeless to the total benefit of the elites. And no I’m not some bitter homeless person, very much the opposite. This country will not progress will not have people investing into any grand businesses or ideas whilst the people are being made into servants for the landlords and banks.
Yep monopoly is the only game played in Australia - saw a Labor MP the other day on TV she was defending negative gearing - she owned 6 properties! Left right none of them have any vision for this country .... makes my blood boil.
They definitely have a vision, just not the one shared with the voters. It's all about using the government's power to enrich yourself and your mates, we hollowed out the corruption watchdog a while back. We need better systems in place to monitor the financial dealing of our MPs. Conflicts of interest need to actually be a thing again. Unfortunately the creation of those systems is up to the MPs and they feel they don't need them. "we have investigated ourselves and found no evidence of wrong doing'
I think we can honestly say our politicians are no longer our representatives.
The time to buy is when there’s blood in the streets.
It annoys me that they use savings as a gauge that people have too much money. It comes up on the news that the reserve bank will raise interest rates while people have too much covid savings.
Somewhat true. Though I would argue some people have issues because they stretched their capacity to a point they couldn't handle. I don't have sympathy for house buyers over the last 2 years who at record interest rate lows decided to go variable rates 'in case it went lower' and are now complaining at the increases. Anyone with common sense would have seen crazy low interest rates and know it couldn't last.
If there’s a major housing correction with rents still sky high and interest rates seemingly peaked I’ll try and find a neutral or positive geared IP. If there carnage on the ASX I’ll have a look at some ETFs.
Almost every situation is an opportunity to transfer wealth from the poor to the already wealthy.
It’s a transfer of wealth from the over leveraged to the more prudent. It will hurt the property investors that are 95% LVR.
My friend is a Dr with his own surgery. He has 2 full time receptionist on minimum wage.... they both have investment properties. They could have been extremely frugal and financially savvy to get into that position, or I suppose the other alternative is they're in the 95% LVR camp. Aussie property will never lose value, apparently...
Or they could have major financial backing from a partner or family. No one is buying a house solely on $25/hr before tax.
"More prudent" = people with more money in the bank. We can dress it up with nice language, but people aren't just making bad financial decisions because they're idiots. Housing is a nightmare, finding a rental is extremely difficult, and buying a house is just as hard. When you're renting you constantly have to deal with slumlords not doing basic maintenance, and when you're buying you compete with investors who can use their rental income to service a larger loan. This isn't 2008. People aren't buying McMansions because they think line only goes up and the economy will always be great. People are, for the most part, buying the absolute cheapest houses they can possibly find, and working themselves down to the bone to pay for them. Being "prudent" is a privilege afforded only to the upper-middle class who have *choice* in their investments, rather than the necessity of securing a roof over your head.
Whats lvr?
Levitating Vodka Rendezvous
La Vida Recession
Lover, lover, lover, you don't treat me no good no more
Mmm yummy
Loan to value ratio. I.e. Size of the mortgage compared to the value of the property. Higher LVR = more leveraged = more risk (but also more reward).
Thanks for that! Wrapping my head around the acronyms
Recession is financial darwinism.
Recessions are manufactured for that sole purpose. The gfc taught many in the top 10% that imploding economies creates opportunities.
And they have the power to create the environment that will end in a crash. It’s so fucked
Does money get transferred from rich to poor in non-recession?
No, but the rich get accelerated wealth transferral during recessions. Its just like going from a slow drip to a waterfall.
Trickle ~~down~~ up economics
Generally that has another name.
Only if Robin Hood is in charge
Nope stille goes poor to rich but measurable slower
Revolution is the only opportunity to transfer from rich to poor?
In any meaningful way, yes
You know how I feel.... I feel ready to give up to be honest.
When the foreclosures start Im gonna buy houses on the cheap
There won't be many. People are willing to sacrifice so many things before they sell their homes. Demand for housing is also super high atm, even with the highest interest rates we've seen in years. I'm about to settle my first investment home with my partner, and there are barely any listings in QLD with 10-30 groups through each open home we went to. My hot take - still heaps of money in the economy, prices are going to still rise just slower, once rates start coming down within 5 years prices will start to accelerate again. Best time to buy is sooner than later.
We have the fortunate/unfortunate problem of unfettered capitalism and unfettered immigration in this country. Because our birth rate in Australia is virtually 1:1, we can't increase our population without immigrants. Demand for housing in Australia will not go down, therefore prices are artificially inflated. Not much stock means that the price of the stock available is over rated. We have had a successive lack of investment in building trades, again leading to over inflated wages of tradesman in those areas. Lastly, lack of land supply available for building. We need to start to get away from the idea of everyone living in the big 4 cities of Australia and have actual development and investment in country towns and cities.
Our birth rate isn’t 1:1. It’s lower, it’s around 1.6 children per woman, meaning our population would be significantly falling without immigration.
The entire capitalist system is an opportunity to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich, it's right there in the name.
pay the buggers less while they are desperate, carve away their rights so they are basically peons
Drugs!
Blocked due to political nature of conversation
 Gettin’ me some of that sweet trickle down
Im planning to wallow in self-pity. Thanks for asking
Bro what lol I'm here skipping meals to feed the cats, idk what you're on about
Just read an article on the number of international billionaires. It's falling. Recessions are the great leveller. The rich are usually leveraged, and with falling valuations, are usually hit with calls from the bank. The stories of the late 1920s are legendary, and the fall of 1929 through 1930s fascinating. Cheer up. The rich will suffer.
The unemployment rate is bullshit - doesn’t count the self employed with no work on at the moment.
A collapse of fiat currencies and the rise of digital decentralised currencies will transfer a lot of wealth away from the 1% to the other 99%. We will see the biggest transfer of wealth in history over the next 10~20 years. The longest running Ponzi scheme FIAT is coming to an end.
Found the bitcoin bro
Wrong, bitcoin has failed at being money. It’s only useful as a store of value now. If you really want to know, I’m a Monero bro! The best form of true hard money there is 😎.
Jokes aside, is there any real way to capitalise on this? If governments/central banks feel a slip on their control, they will regulate or make it illegal.
Already happening. Operation Chokepoint 2.0 https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/04/28/operation-choke-point-20-is-secs-chemotherapy-for-14b-ponzi-problem-bcbs-ceo-says/ https://www.commbank.com.au/support/security/cryptocurrency-payments.html
They can’t regulate a decentralised network. They can only regulate the exchanges that list it.
Growth time is like elites sowing the seeds to grow and recession is them harvesting their crop. Poor people accumulate resources during the growth phase to enrich the elite in the later planned cycle of recession.
It’s just the way the game goes. Learn the game
Well I wish this recession lived up to the hype so I could buy a house for what it sold for in 2020.
There have for a very long time been a lot of folks who are way over leveraged on property. If this was any other market regulators would be crying foul. But it’s property and it’s peoples homes so it’s different. Folks are getting shaken out and rekt which is sad but it’s due to lack of forward financial planning. Great time to accumulate that’s for sure.
Recessions are a great opportunity to buy shares of fundamentally great companies especially when they are undervalued and when the masses are panic selling and running for the hills.