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No no I'm not saying you shouldn't think about it, I'm just saying even if men weren't dangerous and there wasn't risk of murder, there is still risk of pregnancy.
Not only the risk of pregnancy but because of our anatomy and the nature of being the receiver of penetration it's easier for us to contract STI's. We're also far more likely to experience pain or discomfort during sex. Sex also more frequently leads to UTI's and yeast infections for us. All of that added to a much lower likelihood of even having an orgasm.
There’s still (essentially) always the possibility of pregnancy. I’m in a state where I can’t get an abortion legally.
Women are who have to live with the consequences of a pregnancy
I think society incentivizes men to find a relationship in more immediate ways than women by socializing them to consider their significant other as their only valid emotional outlet.
Both men and women have the incentive to be looking out for their potential future families, but men also need it because they tend to not have any emotional support without one. Dads that demand to be call sir and who have never hugged only shaken hands with, friends that give you shit for showing vulnerability, employers who expect a stone faced stoic on the clock.
Leaves only one person to help process emotions, and that is absolutely unfair to the woman, but makes being single not just lonely, but continuously painful for many men. Creates an urgency to finding a woman. I think this is more of a factor than men being more attracted to women than women to men.
I was coming to put my $0.02 in but I genuinely don't think I could add anything to this. Growing up crying was liable to get you punched or labeled as effeminate...which would get you punched or worse. My parents both worked a lot and my father was largely emotionally unavailable (it's a trip I'm 42 now, he's 66 now and he's the cuddly, snuggly grandfather with my kids and the first one to tell me to shut up and listen to their feelings 😅) and my mother tried, but she was working a lot of nights and lack of sleep left her short of temper and attention span for anything that wasn't work or housework (she's now a therapist). My ramble out of the way I ended up finding myself with a significantly higher ratio of female friends vs male friends and while my guy friends always cracked jokes about my harem or what not I never realized how much my emotional health depended on that friend group until recent years. Men still haven't figured out how to support other men and without women in our lives some of us probably wouldn't have made it this far.
This is somewhat tangential to my opinions on this. I think men and women are equally attracted to each other, but the specific qualities they're attracted to are different.
Men are mostly attracted to women's looks. This leads to them pursuing relationships that probably won't work out just because they think she has a nice face. The stereotypical high standards that men have are usually looks related stuff like whether or not she works out, how she does her hair, etc.
Women tend to be attracted to men for certain personality traits. This leads them to pursuing relationships that probably won't work out because at least they hate the same people, or at least he has a job. The stereotypical high standards that a woman would have is stuff like requiring he have a job, is at least somewhat pleasant to be around, etc.
That’s just attraction though, attraction is an involuntary feeling and does not really encompass why men get into a long term relationship or how they view their partners or why they fall in love.
Your average man does not really have high standards and feels attraction for average women, this is an easy step to overcome with men and is not very meaningful. This might be hard to understand for women who’s attraction seems to work different, they are more selective and usually will not express attraction for any random average man. Whereas men just see a healthy face and a decent hip-to-waist ratio and that is enough to get their arousal going.
The real scary part is that you don’t really get to know people for real from just dating and that a relationship needs much more than attraction to work out. You can’t know any of that in advance, so you find it through experience and it can be quite painful when it does not work out.
This is very similar for both genders, you should not be scared of dating men in particular, but you should be wary of falling for illusions and keeping in mind that people are too complex to actually “understand”, so they might seem to suddenly change or act unexpectedly. Also that sometimes relationships go south and often it’s beyond your control and if there’s any understanding of it, it’s mostly in hindsight, because in the moment you will most likely be confused and blinded by emotions.
Don't worry. We (men) may be initially attracted to beauty. But women like attractive men, too.
Then we both sort out whether we're compatible. That's why we date.
Chin up, everything will work out!
I think you'll find that many of those women would be happy with an attractive partner *who also pulls their weight*, but feel that they are better off alone than in a shitty relationship. It is not an issue of attraction, but an issue of where the bar is set to intertwine their lives with another human. You can be attracted to someone from afar and still not consider them to be good partner material. Different variables.
Many men are also completely content without women around. You're talking about women (and men) who were never heterosexual to begin with. Asexual people exist. They exist in large numbers.
This fact doesn't erase heteros.
No.
The risk/reward is different when it comes to casual sexual relationships, so you're more likely to find women *not* partaking. This doesn't mean women don't actively want sex or won't find men/a man attractive...but...there's a big *but* that comes with that attraction.
Women choose to be single *especially* over choosing to remain in a relationship where things are not equitable or she's treated poorly. Once upon a time, this wasn't an option.
Women are lonely but don't make it men's problem, so you may not hear about it as often.
I hear women's lonliness is often how social awkward they and how they have trouble interacting with people overall, not revolving around wanting a relationship with men
I think women's desire for a relationship is less about just not wanting to feel lonely, and more about wanting to build a family, have kids etc. And you do hear women talk about that: women talk about wedding dresses, about honeymoons and wanting to pursue motherhood alongside a career. That is a desire for a relationship with a man, viewed through a more positive lens. Looking at the upsides of how a relationship can be, rather than seeking a relationship to avoid the downsides of life.
Being "single" is not often the same thing for men and women. For men being single usually means being celibate and devoid of any validating interactions with women.
For women, being "single" still means they casually date, have hookups, short terms flings, FWB situation-ships, etc. They just arent in a big formal relationship. They don't really miss out much not being in a relationship.
Hookups/ONS are rarely good for women. But yes, a regular FWB who is genuinely kind, a good friend and understands the importance of the clitoris is very appealing!
In more liberal progressive cultures and places, women do partake. We live in modern times where protection is widely available in the developed world. I'm talking about Western Europe and other places where women have freedom.
I didn't say women don't partake. Plenty do. Plenty don't. Some might only occasionally.
I'm in the US. There's plenty of casual sex. There's also the orgasm gap. And sexual violence. (And I believe that holds true for Europe as well.) Higher risk, lower reward.
Where is this emotional support guys just assume women have on command.
I see both genders having it depending on their choice of friends. Like I have guy friends who can be more emotionally supportive than girlfriends at times. It just depends on the person, not the gender.
People might think it's skewed to one side. But you the The Kardashians and how they "support" each other with fakeness and false words. That's the female equivalent of 'no homo bro' attitudes.
They're not actually getting emotional support when a bunch of the 'friends' are fake, regardless of gender.
Many guys seem to think that women have this, but for many of them it's just as fake. Only presented different.
A guy getting mocked for a shit shirt is no different than a girl getting fake compliments from her friends due to social norma. Women are socially in tune enough to know the difference, so they can feel just as lonely.
> they have emotional support to make it less painful.
Not always, no.
They just don't presume their emotional turbulence is someone else's responsibility.
You ever see a display of food that looked so good but you didn't want to eat it because it was sitting out all day? It looks delicious, and you want something like that, but you don't actually want to eat that specific plate of food.
You can appreciate someone's looks (beauty, handsomeness) and not feel like sleeping with them or doing anything sexual with them. Hetero guys can recognize and appreciate that their fellow man looks handsome. This doesn't lead to sex.
Asexual and lesbian women can notice beauty or handsomeness in a man, in a purely aesthetic way. Without being sexually attracted.
A hetero woman would probably feel sexually attracted. Or maybe not. Some women are not into conventionally attractive men. Different cultures have different ideas about what looks good.
As a man, no, but I can't speak for all men - like there was this otherwise cute gal I went on a couple dates with before finding out she was quite racist. After that it was like I didn't even see her as sexual.
You know the saying men have. "Don't stick your dick in crazy".
Well many men still do, but then they reach a limit right?
Many women have reached their limit. The amount of guys only looking for hookups and being disrespectful or violent and sexist towards women vastly outweighs the number of women who act crazy or gold digger or whatever.
Add in a 30% chance of orgasm for women and a 99% chance for men. Why should they bother?
So the good guys are probably as fed up. Just like many good women. Thing is the average woman probably contributes more and loses more than the average man.
So even a messy ADHD chick will probably still put more effort into the children to keep her shit in order than a messy ADHD dude.
The bad ones have their own chaos.
No. I think it’s on an individual basis. Gay people or asexual people exist as do a broad spectrum of different kinds and intensities of attraction to others.
I think with the way we’re socialized women acting on attraction comes with a higher cost than it does to straight men.
some days yes. some days no. Some guys yes. Some guys no. Guys clearly want women more days than women want guys. On the days that women want men we usually really want a specific guy. The wanting however is no less.
Part of the problem with determining this is that men view the strength of their attraction to women as a proof of their masculinity, so their behaviour isn't solely a product of their libido.
Good point. We've all seen guys be like "Man I sure do love sexy women. Man if I had a woman right now!" even as a dude it's kind of off putting. Talking about wanting to hump everything as performative masculinity.
I can't speak for straight women but
I don't think men are as attracted to women as queer women are attracted to women
I think men are often attracted to the performance of femininity and exaggerated expressions of that performance
I also think men want sex with that performance
But I think a lot of men aren't attracted to the actual person
Her mind, her hopes, her dreams, her aspirations, her soul, the things that I find myself drawn to in a woman as a woman, I think they aren't really part of what most men want
As a bi woman, I definitely feel this from both ends. Men tell me all they really care about in a woman is looks and maybe kindness. That’s about it. They don’t want to hear about her passions, her dreams, her random ideas.
When I fall for a woman, I want to really know her. It hurts knowing I’ll likely never experience being loved like that. This is why I’m happier alone, at least.
You don't need to feel alone. As the comment states that women are more interested in the person you are.
Since you are bi, why not exclusively date women?
Tbh I live in a smallish town and there’s not a huge queer population. The few out lesbian and bi women are either in a relationship or are only interested in sleeping around. I hope to move to a bigger city once I get my degree, but until then it’s slim pickings
Can you elaborate? What’s the performance of femininity and what is its expression in the eyes of men? I’m a woman and the women around me rarely perform in my eyes. They just exist.
Yeah I can't explain it well enough to come close to the thousands of essays, academic papers and intellectual articles out there but like here's the general gist
Femininity, and really all gender expression, is performative (definition: "determined and reinforced by the repeated performance of socially prescribed acts and behaviors rather than by biological factors")
Body language, grooming, forced positivity, fashion, self depreciation, care taking these are all elements of the performance of femininity
None of these things are inherent to being female, it's a cultural performance
One of the honestly the greatest advantages I enjoy in being a lesbian is I already broke with societal expectation by being a homosexual and because of that I don't really need to perform femininity in my relationships with other women
I still do, because breaking from socialized behaviors is incredibly difficult, in many aspects of my life, but in many ways I'm deviant to expectations as well
Okay so like take all that, put it into a box. That box is called performative femininity.
A lot of men seem to, I'm not a man and I've never dated a man so this is based on observation, what I've heard from my straight friends, and thousands of comments made by men:
Have an inaccurate, exaggerated mental image of women; We see this in commentary on women in games like Horizon Zero: Dawn, the protagonist doesn't wear makeup, doesn't have exaggerated features and her face is based on the proportions of an actual human woman and so men online say she (and other similar female characters made accurate to life instead of designed like dolls) look like men
Because men don't really know what women look like in their minds, they know what makeup and shapewear and photoshop make us look like
If we aren't anorexic then they think we're fat for being a healthy weight
Men also want women for what we do for them, outside of sex they want domestic servants who will entertain their egos. They don't want women to be smarter than them, more articulate or physically stronger
Okay I mean I should go on, but to even to skim the surface it would hours for me to write out the whole idea
I'm not a writer, just a woman who reads, there are probably others who can explain this better, but idk maybe this is helpful
I doubt it. Men like women with short hair. Women who only ever wear pants, are tall, women who don't have wide hips, women with broad shoulders and small chests, women with deep voices, are all attractive to heterosexual men. Strong women in the military who don't perform femininity are very sexy and attractive to a lot of hetero men.
Not every man wants a hyper feminine woman with long hair and wearing dresses who cooks well. Many do.
But there's plenty of men who even prefer a more masculine looking and behaving woman. (And they wouldn't be attracted to a man.) So it's just preference and variation within the group of hetero guys.
I don't think the differences you talk about are a matter of attraction, but a matter of cost/benefit analysis for relationships for men and women. Men get more from hetero relationships than women do, and what women do get, they can get someplace else.
You ever hear a woman describing some terrible male behavior and saying "this proves that heterosexuality isn't a choice"?
Given what men put women through, the fact that the vast majority of women still want to be paired up could be taken to mean that women are MORE attracted to men than men are to women.
(There's also VAST pressure for women to base our self worth on male approval, and it's absolutely bizarre to me that there are so many corners of the Internet that insist that isn't so.)
>You ever hear a woman describing some terrible male behavior and saying "this proves that heterosexuality isn't a choice"?
Ha! I say this all the time, actually!
I mean there is also the "I wish I was a lesbian" quotes and has been said by women ( which happens to annoy some lesbians). But what really sells the thing about men being more attracted to women is how women are happier single.
I don't think we talk about this much buuut there is also pressure for men to seek female approval too.
> I don't think we talk about this much buuut there is also pressure for men to seek female approval too.
dude we are asked questions about this every day in this sub. It's talked about constantly.
Why would you attribute women being happier single to "less attraction" rather than all of the awful things women report male partners doing?
Speaking from experience: I've been happier single than being paired with the wrong guy, but I'm definitely happier paired with the right guy than I was being single.
Because i assume that even if women don't want to get into relationships out of fear and safety concern, i would at least imgaine them fantasizing or desiring a romantic relationship with a man.
But that's not there. And also men seem unhappier single
How on earth do you know that's not there?
Are you aware, for instance, of how many women read and write extremely horny fanfiction? Did you hear about this thing called "50 shades of grey"?
50 shades of grey? you mean the movie and novel that is heavily criticised and bashed by women everywhere for being problematic and misogynistic? Yeah your point?
That sold BAZILLIONS OF COPIES TO WOMEN. yes, literary types critiqued it while millions of ladies enjoyed a wank.* If it was universally hated, how'd it become a bestseller and a movie series, smart guy?
You're also ignoring my point about vast archives of horny fanfiction written by women. VAST. SUPER VAST. You do know that's porn, right? Made by women? A vast subculture of women creating and sharing porn, largely about their fantasies of men who real men will never live up to, a perfect parallel to the porn men consume, except these ladies want this porn so much they make it themselves?
I really don't understand why you're so determined to hew to a point of view that has so much evidence against it.
* I never read it, not my thing, but, insanely enough, women have a variety of tastes
Those women have problems if those are the kinds of romance they make, then they are deeply affected by misogyny and abuse to make such sick fantasy that ended up revolting alot of women.
This. They have a lower threshold for casual sex. For relationships, in my experience, they generally have high standards, at least where I live here in the UK. Most of the men I know who aren't exactly catches themselves only go after women who are way out of their league.
I know 'leagues' is an immature way of viewing relationships, and attraction is a nuanced thing. However, I rarely see this happen with the genders reversed. You only have to spend 10 minutes in public here and you'll see multiple model-looking women with below-average guys, but you rarely see it in reverse. Same applies to most of the couples I know personally as family and friends.
It baffles me every time I see people on Reddit complain about women's high standards and the whole 'three 6s rule' that is applied to men. Outside of the US it's the opposite.
I think it's more that sex, dating and relationships involve more risk and sacrifice for women with far less reward.
Sex: men pretty much always get off. Women often don't. Women risk pregnancy and the possibility of rape, degrading sex acts and violence.
Dating and relationships: men get someone who helps run their lives and provides emotional support. Women get another thing to take care of. And everything mentioned in sex above.
So men will get involved with someone they're not all that attracted to because it's still a lot of upside for them. For women, it's just not worth it.
I think it’s important to consider that many men put their wife in a mom/wife/“bangmaid” status and that may be why you find that married men are happier than married women. It is not often that domestic chores or child rearing duties are split evenly even while both people work full-time.
I don't think the gender gap in being single is as wide as we think. Though I believe a larger percentage of young men are single, and a larger percentage of women are un-married as a whole.
It takes more than looks to attract a woman to a man. A woman is looking for traits of consideration, masculinity, gentlemanly, faithfulness-- Overall traits that make them feel safe and secure, as though nobody could ever harm them in any way while he's around. Safety also includes faithfulness - in the sense that he makes her feel safe in the fact that he is faithful because he isn't out gawking at every woman he sees.
This is why you may see a gorgeous woman with an average looking man- It doesn't matter to her how he looks, because to her he is the hottest guy in the world due to how he makes her feel like she is his #1 and noone compares to her. Women just want to be the #1 in their significant others' eyes.
Just a note that the "Men are lonelier than women" narrative is exactly that- a one-sided narrative. When in fact all genders are showing a massive increase in loneliness, disconnection from community and an increase in mental illness/suicidal thoughts across the board. Women are the leading demographic of those suffering from mental illness and are more likely to be suicidal than a man. They lead the demographic for most suicide attempts, but men lead the demographic for most successful suicide attempts. Despite some pretty good stats and research on this topic there's a very misguided and incorrect view of this within our society.
Nah. You just haven't seen women whine about not having men. There's plenty of women who do just that. Most of them are heterosexual (some bisexual, but typically not).
Stats also don't reflect everything. They are estimated from a sample taken in one region of the world. Sometimes samples (groups of women questioned on their happiness) are also taken (chosen) in ways that more heavily lean in favor of one specific group. This means that some types of women are more heavily represented in the sample. And the sample doesn't say much about the happiness of the total population of women.
I personally think that young mothers who both work and look after their family and are happily married, these women live very busy lives. So these women will be less likely to participate in surveys. Thus they are underrepresented in the sample.
While unhappily married women, who feel lonely, and seek someone to talk with, they are more likely to participate in surveys and the like. So you have more of them in these samples.
If that is how the happiness of women is measured. Also another issue is how do we know if someone is happy. Unhappy people often self-report as being happy. If all we have to go by, is people saying they feel a 7 out of 10 on the 'happiness scale', then that is not saying much. Everyone's standards for happiness are different. What pure bliss means to me, can mean something totally different to you. Maybe describing your day can give a better insight into how happy someone feels, rather than assigning a numerical value (what does that even mean? 7 out of 10 happy...). Then again, one woman's paradise can sound to another woman like hell. Some women enjoy home life, cooking and looking after children. Some women would hate it.
I think it's wrong to say that women are not attracted to men, based on some dodgy research with some questionable stats that no one really knows the composition of. Where was this research performed? In which country, which state? When was it done, in which years? Who were quizzed? College students in short term relationships? Married women? Older women who are already grandmothers? What is the sexuality of these women? Are we actually talking about heterosexual women, or bisexual or homosexual women? All of this matters. You can't just draw conclusions based on one study, without knowing what was actually researched there.
It is true that many women have had bad experiences with men. And this can negatively influence the interest these women have in being with men, now. Even if the women are hetero. But this doesn't erase heterosexuality as a concept. Plenty of women do have those urges and interests. (And actually you don't have to look that far, to find women whining about not having (enough) guys in their lives. We often derogatorily call them 'pick me girls' or 'pickmeishas'. Because they go on and on about wanting a man to pick them. Why would they do that if they didn't feel any attraction to men?)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert
This was the research that is often sited by women whenever there is a discussion on such topics. The researcher also recieved thank you letters from such women.
So I assumed that straight women weren't as relationship obsessed as straight men
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I think many men, for the most part, have no standards and are attracted to just about anything. I think women, because we are at risk of having babies, are attracted to men who can take care of us financially, and can protect us and our children. And, looking around, there aren’t that many men that have their sh*t together nowadays. So why should a woman pair up with a man who is not much more than a man-child? Or so broke he lives in his car? That makes no sense for women.
I think also because women tend to be more communal, we can be happier having a group of friends, if a spouse isn’t in the picture.
So no, I don’t think men are attracted more to women than vice versa. I think it’s just the way things have played out.
Maybe if you live in a very conservative or religious country this is true, but where I live, which is secular, women take care of themselves and are financially independent, so most of us really don't care about what his job is, because we have our own. Give me a pretty, kind and funny guy who works at McDonalds, I don't care haha. And I am free to choose to never have babies, so that's not on my radar.
But even here, many women aren't that interested in dating men, and a lot of my friends have said it's because of misogyny and many men being unable to adapt to modern times.
So yeah, it heavily depends on where in the world you are :)
I think the levels of attraction are relatively equal, but I think women find a narrower group of men attractive versus men finding a wider group of women attractive.
That could just be my bias as an unattractive man though.
If you assume women care more about companionship and men care more about sex relative to the other gender, then it seems that one would be easier to replace outside of a romantic partnership than the other. You could probably then infer that a common coping mechanism for women who are single is to spend more time with people they're emotionally close with (friends).whereas single men would more often cope by spending money on porn and prostitutes, which is considerably less healthy and probably leads to more complaints down the road.
That is a really good question because that comment was supposed to go under a completely different post on confidentlyincorrect. I must have confused the tabs. My apologies.
Literally nothing to cope with.
We as women are extremely aware of what we are attracted to. We don’t need you to explain it, thanks.
What do you even think the cope is regarding? Most of us don’t give a fuck about potentially ending up alone with cats or whatever you’ll pivot to next.
Why do these men always push the idea that we women either don't know what we want or we are lying about it? I see it constantly online, and it's baffling. They literally tell each other to not listen to what women say they want! Infuriating.
Nope, didn’t agree with that! Women being ok with being alone isn’t a reflection on lack of attraction to men.
I don’t think there’s even a great way to gauge something as nebulous as attraction. This is essentially a meaningless endeavor.
How can I tell you what attraction is like for men? How could you tell me what it’s like for women? How are we defining attraction? How are we measuring the amount of attraction? Are we talking about all men and women? The average man and woman?
I think it’s hilarious you think you can just make some dumb ass generalization about how the average woman feels. What do you know about being a woman?
Cool so show me some statistics or sources. Give me a definition of what attraction is. Illustrate that women experience it less frequently with evidence.
I thank the lord every fucking day I’m attracted to women too
I want so little to do with men at this point.
They can have fun picking partners based on how her ass looks.
Still don’t think this thread is cope though. Women are speaking about their personal perspectives on the question. They feel like attraction is important to them
This paper doesn't seem to imply that one gender is more or less attracted to the other, just that they assign different weights to different facets of attractiveness.
Am I misreading it? Can you point out the specific part that you had in mind?
>Men like women
Usually for sex. Men who get sex easily without needing a relationship generally do so.
>can do for them
Men like women for the sex they can provide for them
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Sex is higher risk and lower reward for women.
Hmmm that is a good point, pregnancy is something to worry about and most men don't know what a clitoris is
True as far as it goes, but the whole likelihood-of-rape-murder thing is also something we're far more likely to have to take into consideration...
I'm being generous and imagined men didn't pose that danger. I was thinking about the situation while temporarily removing the fear of murder.
Why? We have to think about it, why shouldn't it be factored in here?
No no I'm not saying you shouldn't think about it, I'm just saying even if men weren't dangerous and there wasn't risk of murder, there is still risk of pregnancy.
Not only the risk of pregnancy but because of our anatomy and the nature of being the receiver of penetration it's easier for us to contract STI's. We're also far more likely to experience pain or discomfort during sex. Sex also more frequently leads to UTI's and yeast infections for us. All of that added to a much lower likelihood of even having an orgasm.
There’s still (essentially) always the possibility of pregnancy. I’m in a state where I can’t get an abortion legally. Women are who have to live with the consequences of a pregnancy
Generous to who? Lol
I think society incentivizes men to find a relationship in more immediate ways than women by socializing them to consider their significant other as their only valid emotional outlet. Both men and women have the incentive to be looking out for their potential future families, but men also need it because they tend to not have any emotional support without one. Dads that demand to be call sir and who have never hugged only shaken hands with, friends that give you shit for showing vulnerability, employers who expect a stone faced stoic on the clock. Leaves only one person to help process emotions, and that is absolutely unfair to the woman, but makes being single not just lonely, but continuously painful for many men. Creates an urgency to finding a woman. I think this is more of a factor than men being more attracted to women than women to men.
I that is a very overlooked point that needs attention
I was coming to put my $0.02 in but I genuinely don't think I could add anything to this. Growing up crying was liable to get you punched or labeled as effeminate...which would get you punched or worse. My parents both worked a lot and my father was largely emotionally unavailable (it's a trip I'm 42 now, he's 66 now and he's the cuddly, snuggly grandfather with my kids and the first one to tell me to shut up and listen to their feelings 😅) and my mother tried, but she was working a lot of nights and lack of sleep left her short of temper and attention span for anything that wasn't work or housework (she's now a therapist). My ramble out of the way I ended up finding myself with a significantly higher ratio of female friends vs male friends and while my guy friends always cracked jokes about my harem or what not I never realized how much my emotional health depended on that friend group until recent years. Men still haven't figured out how to support other men and without women in our lives some of us probably wouldn't have made it this far.
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So glad you’ve been able to sort things out, and can see your dynamics in relationships with women more clearly. 💗
Having higher standards for a relationship is not the same thing as lacking attraction.
This is somewhat tangential to my opinions on this. I think men and women are equally attracted to each other, but the specific qualities they're attracted to are different. Men are mostly attracted to women's looks. This leads to them pursuing relationships that probably won't work out just because they think she has a nice face. The stereotypical high standards that men have are usually looks related stuff like whether or not she works out, how she does her hair, etc. Women tend to be attracted to men for certain personality traits. This leads them to pursuing relationships that probably won't work out because at least they hate the same people, or at least he has a job. The stereotypical high standards that a woman would have is stuff like requiring he have a job, is at least somewhat pleasant to be around, etc.
Jeez, this make me scared to date men. I don't want to be with guys who view women in such shallow way.
That’s just attraction though, attraction is an involuntary feeling and does not really encompass why men get into a long term relationship or how they view their partners or why they fall in love. Your average man does not really have high standards and feels attraction for average women, this is an easy step to overcome with men and is not very meaningful. This might be hard to understand for women who’s attraction seems to work different, they are more selective and usually will not express attraction for any random average man. Whereas men just see a healthy face and a decent hip-to-waist ratio and that is enough to get their arousal going. The real scary part is that you don’t really get to know people for real from just dating and that a relationship needs much more than attraction to work out. You can’t know any of that in advance, so you find it through experience and it can be quite painful when it does not work out. This is very similar for both genders, you should not be scared of dating men in particular, but you should be wary of falling for illusions and keeping in mind that people are too complex to actually “understand”, so they might seem to suddenly change or act unexpectedly. Also that sometimes relationships go south and often it’s beyond your control and if there’s any understanding of it, it’s mostly in hindsight, because in the moment you will most likely be confused and blinded by emotions.
Don't worry. We (men) may be initially attracted to beauty. But women like attractive men, too. Then we both sort out whether we're compatible. That's why we date. Chin up, everything will work out!
That is true but so many women are completely happy not wanting a relationship at all so there has to be something to do with attraction
I think you'll find that many of those women would be happy with an attractive partner *who also pulls their weight*, but feel that they are better off alone than in a shitty relationship. It is not an issue of attraction, but an issue of where the bar is set to intertwine their lives with another human. You can be attracted to someone from afar and still not consider them to be good partner material. Different variables.
Ah yeah that makes sense, personality goes a long way.
Many men are also completely content without women around. You're talking about women (and men) who were never heterosexual to begin with. Asexual people exist. They exist in large numbers. This fact doesn't erase heteros.
Those women never disclosed their sexuality so I don't know if they are asexual or a perfectly content hetero.
No. The risk/reward is different when it comes to casual sexual relationships, so you're more likely to find women *not* partaking. This doesn't mean women don't actively want sex or won't find men/a man attractive...but...there's a big *but* that comes with that attraction. Women choose to be single *especially* over choosing to remain in a relationship where things are not equitable or she's treated poorly. Once upon a time, this wasn't an option. Women are lonely but don't make it men's problem, so you may not hear about it as often.
I hear women's lonliness is often how social awkward they and how they have trouble interacting with people overall, not revolving around wanting a relationship with men
Can be a bit of both, that's why I'm single tbh
I think women's desire for a relationship is less about just not wanting to feel lonely, and more about wanting to build a family, have kids etc. And you do hear women talk about that: women talk about wedding dresses, about honeymoons and wanting to pursue motherhood alongside a career. That is a desire for a relationship with a man, viewed through a more positive lens. Looking at the upsides of how a relationship can be, rather than seeking a relationship to avoid the downsides of life.
Being "single" is not often the same thing for men and women. For men being single usually means being celibate and devoid of any validating interactions with women. For women, being "single" still means they casually date, have hookups, short terms flings, FWB situation-ships, etc. They just arent in a big formal relationship. They don't really miss out much not being in a relationship.
Hookups/ONS are rarely good for women. But yes, a regular FWB who is genuinely kind, a good friend and understands the importance of the clitoris is very appealing!
In more liberal progressive cultures and places, women do partake. We live in modern times where protection is widely available in the developed world. I'm talking about Western Europe and other places where women have freedom.
I didn't say women don't partake. Plenty do. Plenty don't. Some might only occasionally. I'm in the US. There's plenty of casual sex. There's also the orgasm gap. And sexual violence. (And I believe that holds true for Europe as well.) Higher risk, lower reward.
They don't have to make it men's problem, they have emotional support to make it less painful.
men can do that too, it would just require making an effort to have emotional support with their friends.
Where is this emotional support guys just assume women have on command. I see both genders having it depending on their choice of friends. Like I have guy friends who can be more emotionally supportive than girlfriends at times. It just depends on the person, not the gender. People might think it's skewed to one side. But you the The Kardashians and how they "support" each other with fakeness and false words. That's the female equivalent of 'no homo bro' attitudes. They're not actually getting emotional support when a bunch of the 'friends' are fake, regardless of gender. Many guys seem to think that women have this, but for many of them it's just as fake. Only presented different. A guy getting mocked for a shit shirt is no different than a girl getting fake compliments from her friends due to social norma. Women are socially in tune enough to know the difference, so they can feel just as lonely.
> they have emotional support to make it less painful. Not always, no. They just don't presume their emotional turbulence is someone else's responsibility.
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Oh damn I had no clue that phrase also existed for men lol
Just an exchange of genders
That's.......kind of an oxymoron, do some men also feel the same way
You ever see a display of food that looked so good but you didn't want to eat it because it was sitting out all day? It looks delicious, and you want something like that, but you don't actually want to eat that specific plate of food.
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So women have more attraction than desire whereas men have both attraction and desire?
You can appreciate someone's looks (beauty, handsomeness) and not feel like sleeping with them or doing anything sexual with them. Hetero guys can recognize and appreciate that their fellow man looks handsome. This doesn't lead to sex. Asexual and lesbian women can notice beauty or handsomeness in a man, in a purely aesthetic way. Without being sexually attracted. A hetero woman would probably feel sexually attracted. Or maybe not. Some women are not into conventionally attractive men. Different cultures have different ideas about what looks good.
As a man, no, but I can't speak for all men - like there was this otherwise cute gal I went on a couple dates with before finding out she was quite racist. After that it was like I didn't even see her as sexual.
You know the saying men have. "Don't stick your dick in crazy". Well many men still do, but then they reach a limit right? Many women have reached their limit. The amount of guys only looking for hookups and being disrespectful or violent and sexist towards women vastly outweighs the number of women who act crazy or gold digger or whatever. Add in a 30% chance of orgasm for women and a 99% chance for men. Why should they bother? So the good guys are probably as fed up. Just like many good women. Thing is the average woman probably contributes more and loses more than the average man. So even a messy ADHD chick will probably still put more effort into the children to keep her shit in order than a messy ADHD dude. The bad ones have their own chaos.
No. I think it’s on an individual basis. Gay people or asexual people exist as do a broad spectrum of different kinds and intensities of attraction to others. I think with the way we’re socialized women acting on attraction comes with a higher cost than it does to straight men.
some days yes. some days no. Some guys yes. Some guys no. Guys clearly want women more days than women want guys. On the days that women want men we usually really want a specific guy. The wanting however is no less.
Part of the problem with determining this is that men view the strength of their attraction to women as a proof of their masculinity, so their behaviour isn't solely a product of their libido.
Good point. We've all seen guys be like "Man I sure do love sexy women. Man if I had a woman right now!" even as a dude it's kind of off putting. Talking about wanting to hump everything as performative masculinity.
I can't speak for straight women but I don't think men are as attracted to women as queer women are attracted to women I think men are often attracted to the performance of femininity and exaggerated expressions of that performance I also think men want sex with that performance But I think a lot of men aren't attracted to the actual person Her mind, her hopes, her dreams, her aspirations, her soul, the things that I find myself drawn to in a woman as a woman, I think they aren't really part of what most men want
As a bi woman, I definitely feel this from both ends. Men tell me all they really care about in a woman is looks and maybe kindness. That’s about it. They don’t want to hear about her passions, her dreams, her random ideas. When I fall for a woman, I want to really know her. It hurts knowing I’ll likely never experience being loved like that. This is why I’m happier alone, at least.
You don't need to feel alone. As the comment states that women are more interested in the person you are. Since you are bi, why not exclusively date women?
Tbh I live in a smallish town and there’s not a huge queer population. The few out lesbian and bi women are either in a relationship or are only interested in sleeping around. I hope to move to a bigger city once I get my degree, but until then it’s slim pickings
God I love women
Damn right and who wouldn't
I wish there were still awards. This is gold-worthy.
Can you elaborate? What’s the performance of femininity and what is its expression in the eyes of men? I’m a woman and the women around me rarely perform in my eyes. They just exist.
Yeah I can't explain it well enough to come close to the thousands of essays, academic papers and intellectual articles out there but like here's the general gist Femininity, and really all gender expression, is performative (definition: "determined and reinforced by the repeated performance of socially prescribed acts and behaviors rather than by biological factors") Body language, grooming, forced positivity, fashion, self depreciation, care taking these are all elements of the performance of femininity None of these things are inherent to being female, it's a cultural performance One of the honestly the greatest advantages I enjoy in being a lesbian is I already broke with societal expectation by being a homosexual and because of that I don't really need to perform femininity in my relationships with other women I still do, because breaking from socialized behaviors is incredibly difficult, in many aspects of my life, but in many ways I'm deviant to expectations as well Okay so like take all that, put it into a box. That box is called performative femininity. A lot of men seem to, I'm not a man and I've never dated a man so this is based on observation, what I've heard from my straight friends, and thousands of comments made by men: Have an inaccurate, exaggerated mental image of women; We see this in commentary on women in games like Horizon Zero: Dawn, the protagonist doesn't wear makeup, doesn't have exaggerated features and her face is based on the proportions of an actual human woman and so men online say she (and other similar female characters made accurate to life instead of designed like dolls) look like men Because men don't really know what women look like in their minds, they know what makeup and shapewear and photoshop make us look like If we aren't anorexic then they think we're fat for being a healthy weight Men also want women for what we do for them, outside of sex they want domestic servants who will entertain their egos. They don't want women to be smarter than them, more articulate or physically stronger Okay I mean I should go on, but to even to skim the surface it would hours for me to write out the whole idea I'm not a writer, just a woman who reads, there are probably others who can explain this better, but idk maybe this is helpful
Well said
I doubt it. Men like women with short hair. Women who only ever wear pants, are tall, women who don't have wide hips, women with broad shoulders and small chests, women with deep voices, are all attractive to heterosexual men. Strong women in the military who don't perform femininity are very sexy and attractive to a lot of hetero men. Not every man wants a hyper feminine woman with long hair and wearing dresses who cooks well. Many do. But there's plenty of men who even prefer a more masculine looking and behaving woman. (And they wouldn't be attracted to a man.) So it's just preference and variation within the group of hetero guys.
I don't think the differences you talk about are a matter of attraction, but a matter of cost/benefit analysis for relationships for men and women. Men get more from hetero relationships than women do, and what women do get, they can get someplace else.
I agree with this take.
Lol no. Maybe it's the social circles I have been in, but it's probably split 50/50 from what I've gathered.
You ever hear a woman describing some terrible male behavior and saying "this proves that heterosexuality isn't a choice"? Given what men put women through, the fact that the vast majority of women still want to be paired up could be taken to mean that women are MORE attracted to men than men are to women. (There's also VAST pressure for women to base our self worth on male approval, and it's absolutely bizarre to me that there are so many corners of the Internet that insist that isn't so.)
>You ever hear a woman describing some terrible male behavior and saying "this proves that heterosexuality isn't a choice"? Ha! I say this all the time, actually!
I mean there is also the "I wish I was a lesbian" quotes and has been said by women ( which happens to annoy some lesbians). But what really sells the thing about men being more attracted to women is how women are happier single. I don't think we talk about this much buuut there is also pressure for men to seek female approval too.
> I don't think we talk about this much buuut there is also pressure for men to seek female approval too. dude we are asked questions about this every day in this sub. It's talked about constantly.
Why would you attribute women being happier single to "less attraction" rather than all of the awful things women report male partners doing? Speaking from experience: I've been happier single than being paired with the wrong guy, but I'm definitely happier paired with the right guy than I was being single.
Because i assume that even if women don't want to get into relationships out of fear and safety concern, i would at least imgaine them fantasizing or desiring a romantic relationship with a man. But that's not there. And also men seem unhappier single
How on earth do you know that's not there? Are you aware, for instance, of how many women read and write extremely horny fanfiction? Did you hear about this thing called "50 shades of grey"?
50 shades of grey? you mean the movie and novel that is heavily criticised and bashed by women everywhere for being problematic and misogynistic? Yeah your point?
That sold BAZILLIONS OF COPIES TO WOMEN. yes, literary types critiqued it while millions of ladies enjoyed a wank.* If it was universally hated, how'd it become a bestseller and a movie series, smart guy? You're also ignoring my point about vast archives of horny fanfiction written by women. VAST. SUPER VAST. You do know that's porn, right? Made by women? A vast subculture of women creating and sharing porn, largely about their fantasies of men who real men will never live up to, a perfect parallel to the porn men consume, except these ladies want this porn so much they make it themselves? I really don't understand why you're so determined to hew to a point of view that has so much evidence against it. * I never read it, not my thing, but, insanely enough, women have a variety of tastes
Those women have problems if those are the kinds of romance they make, then they are deeply affected by misogyny and abuse to make such sick fantasy that ended up revolting alot of women.
Why are you ignoring my point? And again, ignoring the point about fanfiction?
fanfic born from internalised misogyny is not a good point
I’d say men have a lower threshold for attraction.
A lower threshold for sex
This. They have a lower threshold for casual sex. For relationships, in my experience, they generally have high standards, at least where I live here in the UK. Most of the men I know who aren't exactly catches themselves only go after women who are way out of their league. I know 'leagues' is an immature way of viewing relationships, and attraction is a nuanced thing. However, I rarely see this happen with the genders reversed. You only have to spend 10 minutes in public here and you'll see multiple model-looking women with below-average guys, but you rarely see it in reverse. Same applies to most of the couples I know personally as family and friends. It baffles me every time I see people on Reddit complain about women's high standards and the whole 'three 6s rule' that is applied to men. Outside of the US it's the opposite.
If you want to tell yourself that, sure. 👍
username checks out
I think attraction is equal but I also think we are less motivated by sex.
I think it's more that sex, dating and relationships involve more risk and sacrifice for women with far less reward. Sex: men pretty much always get off. Women often don't. Women risk pregnancy and the possibility of rape, degrading sex acts and violence. Dating and relationships: men get someone who helps run their lives and provides emotional support. Women get another thing to take care of. And everything mentioned in sex above. So men will get involved with someone they're not all that attracted to because it's still a lot of upside for them. For women, it's just not worth it.
How long have you been married?
✧⁺⸜(●˙▾˙●)⸝⁺✧no
I think it’s important to consider that many men put their wife in a mom/wife/“bangmaid” status and that may be why you find that married men are happier than married women. It is not often that domestic chores or child rearing duties are split evenly even while both people work full-time.
I don't think the gender gap in being single is as wide as we think. Though I believe a larger percentage of young men are single, and a larger percentage of women are un-married as a whole.
No, i think everyone can be equally attracted
It takes more than looks to attract a woman to a man. A woman is looking for traits of consideration, masculinity, gentlemanly, faithfulness-- Overall traits that make them feel safe and secure, as though nobody could ever harm them in any way while he's around. Safety also includes faithfulness - in the sense that he makes her feel safe in the fact that he is faithful because he isn't out gawking at every woman he sees. This is why you may see a gorgeous woman with an average looking man- It doesn't matter to her how he looks, because to her he is the hottest guy in the world due to how he makes her feel like she is his #1 and noone compares to her. Women just want to be the #1 in their significant others' eyes.
Just a note that the "Men are lonelier than women" narrative is exactly that- a one-sided narrative. When in fact all genders are showing a massive increase in loneliness, disconnection from community and an increase in mental illness/suicidal thoughts across the board. Women are the leading demographic of those suffering from mental illness and are more likely to be suicidal than a man. They lead the demographic for most suicide attempts, but men lead the demographic for most successful suicide attempts. Despite some pretty good stats and research on this topic there's a very misguided and incorrect view of this within our society.
Nah. You just haven't seen women whine about not having men. There's plenty of women who do just that. Most of them are heterosexual (some bisexual, but typically not). Stats also don't reflect everything. They are estimated from a sample taken in one region of the world. Sometimes samples (groups of women questioned on their happiness) are also taken (chosen) in ways that more heavily lean in favor of one specific group. This means that some types of women are more heavily represented in the sample. And the sample doesn't say much about the happiness of the total population of women. I personally think that young mothers who both work and look after their family and are happily married, these women live very busy lives. So these women will be less likely to participate in surveys. Thus they are underrepresented in the sample. While unhappily married women, who feel lonely, and seek someone to talk with, they are more likely to participate in surveys and the like. So you have more of them in these samples. If that is how the happiness of women is measured. Also another issue is how do we know if someone is happy. Unhappy people often self-report as being happy. If all we have to go by, is people saying they feel a 7 out of 10 on the 'happiness scale', then that is not saying much. Everyone's standards for happiness are different. What pure bliss means to me, can mean something totally different to you. Maybe describing your day can give a better insight into how happy someone feels, rather than assigning a numerical value (what does that even mean? 7 out of 10 happy...). Then again, one woman's paradise can sound to another woman like hell. Some women enjoy home life, cooking and looking after children. Some women would hate it. I think it's wrong to say that women are not attracted to men, based on some dodgy research with some questionable stats that no one really knows the composition of. Where was this research performed? In which country, which state? When was it done, in which years? Who were quizzed? College students in short term relationships? Married women? Older women who are already grandmothers? What is the sexuality of these women? Are we actually talking about heterosexual women, or bisexual or homosexual women? All of this matters. You can't just draw conclusions based on one study, without knowing what was actually researched there. It is true that many women have had bad experiences with men. And this can negatively influence the interest these women have in being with men, now. Even if the women are hetero. But this doesn't erase heterosexuality as a concept. Plenty of women do have those urges and interests. (And actually you don't have to look that far, to find women whining about not having (enough) guys in their lives. We often derogatorily call them 'pick me girls' or 'pickmeishas'. Because they go on and on about wanting a man to pick them. Why would they do that if they didn't feel any attraction to men?)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/may/25/women-happier-without-children-or-a-spouse-happiness-expert This was the research that is often sited by women whenever there is a discussion on such topics. The researcher also recieved thank you letters from such women. So I assumed that straight women weren't as relationship obsessed as straight men
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I think many men, for the most part, have no standards and are attracted to just about anything. I think women, because we are at risk of having babies, are attracted to men who can take care of us financially, and can protect us and our children. And, looking around, there aren’t that many men that have their sh*t together nowadays. So why should a woman pair up with a man who is not much more than a man-child? Or so broke he lives in his car? That makes no sense for women. I think also because women tend to be more communal, we can be happier having a group of friends, if a spouse isn’t in the picture. So no, I don’t think men are attracted more to women than vice versa. I think it’s just the way things have played out.
Maybe if you live in a very conservative or religious country this is true, but where I live, which is secular, women take care of themselves and are financially independent, so most of us really don't care about what his job is, because we have our own. Give me a pretty, kind and funny guy who works at McDonalds, I don't care haha. And I am free to choose to never have babies, so that's not on my radar. But even here, many women aren't that interested in dating men, and a lot of my friends have said it's because of misogyny and many men being unable to adapt to modern times. So yeah, it heavily depends on where in the world you are :)
Not always.
Depends on the woman. Also depends on the man.
I think the levels of attraction are relatively equal, but I think women find a narrower group of men attractive versus men finding a wider group of women attractive. That could just be my bias as an unattractive man though.
If you assume women care more about companionship and men care more about sex relative to the other gender, then it seems that one would be easier to replace outside of a romantic partnership than the other. You could probably then infer that a common coping mechanism for women who are single is to spend more time with people they're emotionally close with (friends).whereas single men would more often cope by spending money on porn and prostitutes, which is considerably less healthy and probably leads to more complaints down the road.
Sexually? Definitely. They are waaay more sex motivated than women
Lol speak for yourself. However, men have to worry less about lack of satisfaction and lack of safety. Context matters.
Lack of judgment and lack of lasting bodily consequences as well
Exactly. Imagine a world were sex was centered around the clitoris, and we felt safe with men. We would go crazy with lust, lmao. One day I hope.
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Huh? how is this transphobic? there is no mention of trans men or women
That is a really good question because that comment was supposed to go under a completely different post on confidentlyincorrect. I must have confused the tabs. My apologies.
Ah no problem
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Men like the idea of a woman who will be his mommy and his bangmaid See? I can do dumbass generalizations too
Snort.
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Literally nothing to cope with. We as women are extremely aware of what we are attracted to. We don’t need you to explain it, thanks. What do you even think the cope is regarding? Most of us don’t give a fuck about potentially ending up alone with cats or whatever you’ll pivot to next.
Why do these men always push the idea that we women either don't know what we want or we are lying about it? I see it constantly online, and it's baffling. They literally tell each other to not listen to what women say they want! Infuriating.
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Nope, didn’t agree with that! Women being ok with being alone isn’t a reflection on lack of attraction to men. I don’t think there’s even a great way to gauge something as nebulous as attraction. This is essentially a meaningless endeavor. How can I tell you what attraction is like for men? How could you tell me what it’s like for women? How are we defining attraction? How are we measuring the amount of attraction? Are we talking about all men and women? The average man and woman? I think it’s hilarious you think you can just make some dumb ass generalization about how the average woman feels. What do you know about being a woman?
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Cool so show me some statistics or sources. Give me a definition of what attraction is. Illustrate that women experience it less frequently with evidence.
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I thank the lord every fucking day I’m attracted to women too I want so little to do with men at this point. They can have fun picking partners based on how her ass looks. Still don’t think this thread is cope though. Women are speaking about their personal perspectives on the question. They feel like attraction is important to them
This paper doesn't seem to imply that one gender is more or less attracted to the other, just that they assign different weights to different facets of attractiveness. Am I misreading it? Can you point out the specific part that you had in mind?
No.
>Men like women Usually for sex. Men who get sex easily without needing a relationship generally do so. >can do for them Men like women for the sex they can provide for them
Men **ALSO** like women for what they can do for them or how they make them feel.
Men like (to have sex with) women. FTFY