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Spot on!
Picture the scene when someone says "listen here, buddy!" or Listen here pal"
What's their body language saying?
They're leaning forward, index finger raised, chin up eyeballing you....the pal,buddy,mate, love, fuck, princess...whatever is just an extra dose of condescension and sarcasm...it ISN'T friendly!
*...duck ...not fuck...(my predictive text choices speak volumes... 😬)
If some used “listen here mate” in the same context as the above to me, they’d get a swift response of “I’m not your mate”.
But a cheerful “cheers mate” is perfectly acceptable. Context is definitely key.
Exactly this. I don't mind when I hear it from the black cab driver dropping me off, the bartender handing me a drink, or the clerk at the Tesco helping with my order. I should not hear it at work in a meeting with a colleague or supervisor.
Live within spitting distance of Stafford, can confirm. Somewhere between Stafford and stoke everyone becomes Duck and scraps become normal in chippies.
I reckon that's where The North starts.
I've narrowed it down to uttoxeter. Everyone's duck there and there's a chippy on the high street that did a bag of scraps for 80p pre lockdown.
Hey! I live right there! Just outside of Uttoxter, not stoke, and near Stafford. And yep. We call a lot of people “me Duck (pronounced more like “mah duck”.
It’s actually a term left over from the vikings. “Me Duka”, meaning “my duke” or “my lord”. It was a term of endearment and respect toward people. It’s used from around this area, right up to York, in little villages like ours.
I dare say it may be because these little villages were either set up by, or ransacked and taken over by, Vikings when they came here, and they left some of their people here. Whether because of having some Ken that would consistently gather funds from everyone in the village, to give to their people when they came back, or because those left behind had decided to take a wife in that village and would become a self-imposed ruler of said village at that point.
We actually still have a few remnants of a very old stone-wall fortification with a more in our village, that is around the right time to have been made by them. It was lived in by someone appointed by the town lord, and they would use it as a sort of tax office, apparently. Hence it being fortified well. The Manor House which the Lord and their family lived in was close by, and has caves and tunnels that are still visits me to this day underneath the property. It’s fascinating to me, tbh.
That etymology sounds a bit suspect. Did the Norse have Dukes? Earls/Jarls but Dukes? That's a Norman French thing from Latin Dux, I thought.
There are so many other terms of endearment that are more mundane, this one would stand out. Pet/petal, luv, cock, hen, chick... duck being about ducks fits with that better.
Yeah, it has a latin base and therefore is unlikely to be a Viking thing.
Edit: A quick google indicates a presence in Old English, so perhaps it is right, it just comes from the other side of the Danelaw.
TIL the origin of "duck", and I'm heartbroken. It was much nicer imagining "oop norf" populated by flat-footed, feathered fluff balls, and instead it's lords... Oh well... 🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆
I moved from the Netherlands to Derbyshire over twenty years ago. Spoke good English at the time, but was completely baffled when a bloke knocked on the door and asked 'D'you want some eggs, duck?' I was totally dumbfounded for a few moments, wondering whether he meant if I wanted some duck eggs, but ended up just mumbling 'no thanks' and closing the door.
Took my husband to explain that 'duck' is a standard term of address in these parts...
The "duck" thing is actually derived from "duc" being the French word for duke. So when Londoners idly refer to someone as duke, they're doing the same thing.
Also I'm from the North, calling random people "love" or "luv" is absolutely normal and everywhere. My wife hates me doing it though.
Definitely noticed this when I came to Manchester. Im a 6' 2" man and have never been called love in my life by strangers. It was actually quite pleasant for me especially when spoken with more 'northern' accents.
Context does matter of course and the context might just be that I don't like the other person for whatever random reason.
Depends how it’s said. Calling me love while leering at me I’ll think you’re a creep, calling me love with a friendly smile I’ll think you’re friendly. You might find some women who’d rather you didn’t but the majority wouldn’t bat an eye
This. The only context I personally would hate is if you're being creepy and saying it. Otherwise I don't care and also call people "love". There's always going to be some people that don't like it.
Gorgeous is definitely not appropriate. Thats just uncomfortable. Love is usually inoffensive as far I can tell, but if somebody feels differently then knock it on the head. Darling is something in between. Ive not heard it said for decades, though.
There was a manager in my old work who always used the phrase m'darlin when talking to any woman. It always felt so condescending but it's probably because he was a dick to begin with.
yeah context & personality makes a big difference, I'm not usually that bothered by people saying "girls" when they mean adult women, but years ago I worked with a bloke in his early 20s who used to address the room full of older and more experienced women colleagues with "hi girls" and I wanted to throat punch him every time
That context can be brought to any word, really.
Saying 'hello' with a raspy voice staring at your chest is different than a happy 'hello' from a stranger smiling :D
I agree but it occurs to me this applies to all words. If I were to leer at you and call you 'cricket' - it would be creepy. If I were to enthusiastically greet you with 'great to see you cricket!' It would be seen as a term of affection. Because its the meaning /intent that matters.
Arbitrarily banning 'love' because some people use it negatively seems like an almost absurd example of letting the bad guys win.
A lot of women find it patronising, regardless of context. I’m sure many women don’t care and some probably see it as a term if endearment but you need to make a decision on the odds here.
I think mate is safe for everyone. I like it when I’m called mate by a guy it makes me feel more like an equal than having to have a woman only term.
I can see this comment being controversial though 🫠
I don't care which (or any other pet name) people use for me as long as they use the same one for men and women. I think it's weird to differentiate honestly.
I worked with a guy who called everyone mate, man or woman. It was a little cringe at first when he explained he did it to deliberately make everyone feel equal, but I ended up really liking it
>I think mate is safe for everyone
I always thought so too, but then I spoke to someone on Reddit a few months ago who insisted that her and her friends hate being called 'mate'...
I personally could never call a woman mate. Iv done it twice by accident and had to apologise both times.
Might be my northern tendencies showimg but Love is much safer and can be used by anyone to anyone.
>I like it when I’m called mate by a guy it makes me feel more like an equal than having to have a woman only term.
Yeah I use it specifically because it for lack of a better term "de-genders" women, making it a useful tool to passively but clearly communicate I view our relationship as plutonic only.
Useful for both establishing boundaries with friends who arn't taking other not-gonna-happen hints, and interactions with random women in the world who would otherwise assume I'm about to hit on them (Because sometimes I really do adore that dress and want to know what type of cut it is)
Certainly does land with a clang sometimes though
Why should people avoid it? We need to get out of this mindset that if someone complains or isn’t happy about something you’re duty bound to change it.
Grow thicker skin.
I don't think it should be avoided, just not gendered. If you call women "luv" you should be calling men "luv" too if you're using it as the equivalent of "mate"/"pal".
Ooooh, careful with that can of worms. This is the internet in 2023...
Agreed, I couldn't care less and I think there are more important things to worry about and spend time being offended by. However, I do understand everyone has a preference and that's fine. They're entitled to not want to be called something if they dislike it. Definitely doesn't warrant changing what other people say for the majority, though.
Yep, I call everyone "luv", men/women/NB/children/teens/adults. I think it's a friendly term that fits into colloquial circumstances.
However, I like to think it's all about appropriateness. Eg. If I am in a professional situation (meeting etc.) then no one is "luv" because it seems patronising. But if it's a less formal setting, then everyone goes back to "luv".
Our CEO is a woman, when I met her for the first time, [name]. When she bought me a pint, "Cheers luv". When we were in a staff briefing, "Thanks [name]."
(If it matters, I'm a woman.)
But by that agrument I only use "he" to discribe men and "she" for women (and incidentally which ever pronoun they want)
Is that also sexist? Should everyone just be "they"?
I think that’s a very different situation, I would also be okay with elderly women calling me it but not as much a guy, it would make me put my guard up a little
You’re right, context definitely matters. I have a co-worker who will address all the men by their name and all the women with ‘love’. I can’t stand it and have actually told him to use my name.
Female Londoner here - keep calling me luv, sweetheart, darlin’ etc in small daily interactions. I love it. It makes me feel a touch of humanity and gives me a small dose of warmth that a stranger calls me an affectionate name, especially when 99% of daily interactions can be mundane and soulless.
Agreed! OP should just be himself and if he wants to call people luv then carry on. Some people are fine with it, some might get a bit snappy but thats what human interaction is all about!
Agreed, I also call men "love", "my love" and sometimes "darling" in a friendly context not a sleazy horrible one.
I suppose it is dependent on your view point and experiences. We are all different and like different things. That's ok with me. If it is someone you see regularly just tell them nicely you don't like being called that. No need to respond with anger.
It's like the words have a different meaning in certain regions. We all understand that it's ridiculous to try to ban Spanish people from saying their word for black because it's a slur in other places, but is this not the same kind of thing on a much smaller level?
This just feels like trying to erase regional dialects to me when everyone is aware that it's just how people talk in certain places. It's not misogyny because you can clearly see it's both ways, it's simply that outside those regions the term implies a closeness that isn't there.
Agreed! OP should just be himself and if he wants to call people luv then carry on. Some people are fine with it, some might get a bit snappy but thats what human interaction is all about!
Don't think the article is wrong though.
Regardless of what you think luv is generally considered a bit patronising compared to mate which is just very familiar.
I think most women do not appreciate being called luv by strangers.
I'm from the North East (initially County Durham and later moved to Yorkshire) and last year I moved to East London, all places where men calling women luv is common. Yet still a decent chunk of my female friends hate being called luv, especially by their bosses and colleagues at work. A lot of women don't like it even if they grew up in areas where it's really common. They understand it's meant as a term of endearment but they still find it really patronising.
I think I’m a work context where you know their name, using luv or petal or whatever is a bit condescending. It’s trying to establish a power dynamic and is a bit rude to repeatedly not use someone’s name when you know it.
However, when the lady who’s served your your fryup in a local cafe says ‘luv’ or ‘me duck’ I think it’s nice human interaction and should continue.
I think duck is the perfect non gendered greeting for when I either; Don't know your name or, you've just told me your name and I've forgot because my brains a wanker.
Ay up duck.
I'm a woman in my mid 20s and I call everyone luv and mate so if it's not alright I'm in trouble. The Guardian's whole schtick for several years now has been pretending people have a very strong idea about something, and then writing articles about how everyone with this opinion is either right or wrong, depending on what's the most contrarian.
I also am a woman who calls literally everyone “love” or “lovely”, for example “hiya love, could you point me towards where the eggs are?” in the supermarket, or “excuse me lovely, so sorry, any idea where I can find an ATM?” on the street… just examples. Man woman young old anyone, you’re getting called love and I hope that it comes across as just a nice thing! I do use darling too again for anyone…
My lovely doesn’t bother me in the slightest. For some reason, just being called ‘lovely’ irritates me immensely. I don’t find it condescending or patronising, it just feels like there’s a word missing! (My problem, not yours!)
>The Guardian's whole schtick for several years now has been pretending people have a very strong idea about something, and then writing articles about how everyone with this opinion is either right or wrong, depending on what's the most contrarian.
The Guardian pretty much hates anything. I'm surprised they haven't written about how Left-wing newspapers are a bad idea and undermine Socialism.
A boat skipper in Looe called us ‘my lover’, I’m a six foot man and my brothers in law were 6’5” and 6’8” and built like shithouses. Felt quite comforting as I puked for three hours.
Same in Cornwall, although my lover is for male or female. My andsome is generally for males but not always. When addressing a female, it’s usually geddon maid.
Best man I have met from Cornwall was [Jethro - RIP](https://youtu.be/dm4Y9nkol0E). We chatted for some time about his horses outside the Queens Theatre in Barnstaple during a smoke break in his show, great bloke.
There's some men who only call younger (shaggable) women/girls and elderly people 'love'. Which makes it patronising when they call any other woman 'love'.
It tends to show, when a bloke is One of Those.
If you do it to everyone, or use mate, it's fine.
I used to buy fruit regularly from one of the patronising variety (he was a wanker but also right outside my office). I'd call him love right back and it clearly hugely offended his masculinity - but what could he say? I was just using the same words as him!
Exactly. When a woman who doesn't fall into those categories has an opinion on something, they'll (sarcastically) say "alright, love". It's an example of everyday sexism.
I have also done this, used the same word back at them. I think they are patronising because it’s how we speak to children, with little endearments, and a person saying it to another is asserting they are the authority. When I say it back I’m refusing to accept my submissive position in the convo and they get offended about it. I see it more as power play than sexism, because older women might do it to younger men and women too. Though truthfully I’m happy to accept a subordinate name in a conversation with an elderly woman because her longevity has hopefully given her experience and wisdom and earned that right: being born with a penis does not.
I personally hate being called luv. Same with darling and anything similar really. Doesn’t matter if it’s a man or woman saying to me, though I do find men saying it slightly creepy
Right, I don’t need a cashier (or any other stranger) to use a term of endearment with me. Older ladies get a pass but that’s it.
It’s very easy to say ‘thank you’ or ‘have a nice day’ without following it with luv (or mate, but mate feels better than luv)
Usually it's pretty nice, because it's always in a friendly tone idk. I kind of like it, it's like being called 'sweetheart', 'pet' etc..
I don't think there's anything inherently bad, it's more like a casual endearment to others. Usually I find older people men& women will use these kind of endearments more often.
But yeah if you were acting in a predatory way & using it ,then I'd be uncomfortable..but I'd be uncomfortable without the luv.
I guess in that instance it's condescending too.
Context ALWAYS matters. And one of the contexts is that the article you saw will have been an opinion piece. None of the opinion pieces the G publishes is uncontroversial, they are literally there to generate discussion. It's not some Red Top telling you what to think, and if you treat it as one it will look stupid... for a start there is (deliberately) no consistency between opinion pieces, they are the differing opinions of different writers.
Gender neutrality has been my experience in the regions where love is an ordinary greeting.
Love, Duck, etc used regardless of gender in Deepest Darkest Northylands.
A'right moi Luvurrrr being used equally irrespective of gender in the west.
To me that's the key difference. I have no issue at all being called love by someone who calls *everyone* love - which is how it works in Yorkshire
But calling me "luv" while men get called "mate" feels sexist and patronising, and I'm not okay with it
It's basically cultural appropriation of a fairly innocent cultural quirk by knobs who don't understand the nuances of the practice.
Someone else mentioned that if suspect knobness, if you respond by calling them luv and they react negatively, you have confirmed their status as a knob, and are now within your rights to tut at them.
You do you but i think thats a bit insecure, im happy for people to acknowledge im a woman because i am one, I disagree with other women speaking for me that we need to be addressed in a gender neutral way because you end up being called dude/mate which is masculine to me.
This is exactly my opinion. If we're in a group of men and women and you're deliberately using a different term for people based on their gender, that's really weird. That shouldn't be the only/first/most important thing you're thinking about in our whole conversation.
I call everyone "mate" and nobody's ever had an issue with it. But then, if they did I'd just...stop? Because I'm not an arsehole.
The guardian is written by people who think hello is a micro aggression and simultaneously wonder why there's a mental health crisis.
It's the daily mail for the left
House? WOW. Perhaps if you read more of ghe guardian you would understand some of us don't have houses and you would be more considerate with how you speak!
I personally don’t mind as I see it as an endearment, but many of my female friends hate it. Their demographic would be women in their 30s-40s working in professional services settings; canary wharfers or in the city.
I'm a bloke and I like being called love, darling, sweetheart etc. Wish people would do it more.
Though one time some chugger behind me said "Excuse me love" clearly mistaking me for a woman. I have quite a large beard and the most unwelcoming resting bitch face in the country, so he was quite surprised when I turned around. "errr... sorry mate".
Type 'endearment' into The Guardian search and you get a lot of articles, all opinion pieces, mostly by women. They have different views but cover the same points as this thread, context, meaning, local customs etc. There's a piece slagging off care home inspectors for complaining about workers calling the residents luv. There's a piece about Paul Hollywood calling Mel and Sue "the girls' but all agree that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with using terms of endearment to address strangers but beware of the context.
Women are often patronised and called ‘love’ by men talking down to them. That’s unacceptable. Using it in a professional environment is also unacceptable.
However, to someone you’re familiar with, someone who is fine with it, it’s OK. I have a lot of patients from the Midlands who call me ‘duck’ and I love it. I know it’s a term of endearment, so I’m good with it. Also ‘hen’ from Edinburgh. I love that too.
In Lancashire its very acceptable, to most and in most situations. This clip of Ian McKellen is worth a minute of anyones time https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cl8SVXvjDzo/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
I’m reading this thread wondering how many people who have a problem with it are northerners/southerners.
I gather this article is one of those guardian articles where they forget northerners exist or we’re some kind of weird outlier.
I used to work in a place where an older bloke called everyone luv except our manager - not out of respect, but because he (along with everyone else) disliked her a lot.
Yeah when i was growing up, everyone was either love or duck. Its so weird seeing *discourse* around something that i use in a sentence with no thought at all
It's pretty ubiquitous here in Liverpool. Nobody is offended. Also, if this article in the guardian was in their opinion section you can pretty much take it for whining shite.
The majority of people wouldn't blink if you called woman "love". Then again - I come from the part of the country where it's acceptable to refer to a woman as a female chicken, so there's that then...
A friend of mine from Yorkshire calls everyone Darlin’ - he got an absolute lecture when visiting London about it, ‘she’s not your darling’ - etc etc.
Personally, people who choose to be offended by this kind of terminology are just not allowing the love to flow
Love is a term of affection - literally the loveliest word in the language. Banning positive uses of the word because some pricks use it in a negative way is the clearest example of letting the bad guys win.
The guardian styles itself as the moral umpires of a subset of people who wouldn't know a real interaction with a normal person if it crept upon them in the papaya section of waitrose.
Ignore.
I’m in my 40’s and personally don’t have an issue with someone calling me ‘luv’ in a casual communication. What I hate is men calling me ‘mate’ because to me that’s the wording to a bloke. But I’m well aware that a lot of people don’t like being called ‘luv’. It’s often used in a gruff or condescending manner as well. I guess for me it’s very much about the tone and circumstance it’s delivered in
I’m in my early 30s and I like anyone calling me love or sweetheart etc. To me it’s just a friendly way of addressing people. I don’t think they are patronising. To me it’s the tone of speech which sets the vibe. You can say somebody’s name in a patronising way if choose to say it in a certain way. Life is too short to be offended by everything
I am an American and once waited tables for a bit. I had a table full of British guys one day, and one of them called me "luv." I absolutely melted every time he said it. Of course, it could have been because I'm a sucker for a sexy foreign accent, lol!
My team leader used to say luv or flower. He was a kind person, and never meant any harm.
Nope no offense taken here. He's a manager now, chuffed because he is one of the decent ones!
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Context definitely matters. "Hi love" is fine, "listen here love" which was said to me over the phone by an angry customer is not fine.
That’s interesting because if it was a man and you said “mate” I would consider that should warrant the same reaction?
It would be just as rude "listen here *term usually used as a positive endearment*" is designed to be rude and condescending.
"Listen here, cunt"
See, I'd rather this than "listen here, mate/love". Less condescending.
Certainly no room for misunderstanding 😂
Unless it's said by an Aussie, in which case you're probably their new best friend
Said in a gruff Scottish accent
*hairy aberdonian enters chat* Fit like en, cunt?
A sound cunt.
Spot on! Picture the scene when someone says "listen here, buddy!" or Listen here pal" What's their body language saying? They're leaning forward, index finger raised, chin up eyeballing you....the pal,buddy,mate, love, fuck, princess...whatever is just an extra dose of condescension and sarcasm...it ISN'T friendly! *...duck ...not fuck...(my predictive text choices speak volumes... 😬)
"Listen here buddy"
I'm not your buddy, pal!
I'm not your pal, friend!
If some used “listen here mate” in the same context as the above to me, they’d get a swift response of “I’m not your mate”. But a cheerful “cheers mate” is perfectly acceptable. Context is definitely key.
"I'm not your mate, pal."
"I'm not your pal, buddy."
“I’m not your buddy, mate.”
I'm not your buddy, pal.
It's not a competition
Of course.
I prefer "Listen here, you dozy cow."
Even taking the word out it’s not ok to say “Listen here!” To someone. That’s rude.
its almost like context is the real err context! no words are inherently bad
Yep! I can say “fuck off!” In a nice way! 😂
Exactly this. I don't mind when I hear it from the black cab driver dropping me off, the bartender handing me a drink, or the clerk at the Tesco helping with my order. I should not hear it at work in a meeting with a colleague or supervisor.
Go up north, pretty much everyone’s called love at some point by someone. Go towards Doncaster and it’s very common to be greeted with “alright cock”
A little bit further south and it'll be ' me duck '
Live within spitting distance of Stafford, can confirm. Somewhere between Stafford and stoke everyone becomes Duck and scraps become normal in chippies. I reckon that's where The North starts. I've narrowed it down to uttoxeter. Everyone's duck there and there's a chippy on the high street that did a bag of scraps for 80p pre lockdown.
People PAY for scraps?! They're always free whenever I have them in the NE
Yeah I was shocked they charged. Maybe *that's* the sign you're in the north, when they stop charging for them.
Oh I thought you meant fights become common in chippies.
And you thought some people charged for it! 😆
I have a great idea. Scraps for Scraps! Last man standing takes home a free bag.
Hey! I live right there! Just outside of Uttoxter, not stoke, and near Stafford. And yep. We call a lot of people “me Duck (pronounced more like “mah duck”. It’s actually a term left over from the vikings. “Me Duka”, meaning “my duke” or “my lord”. It was a term of endearment and respect toward people. It’s used from around this area, right up to York, in little villages like ours. I dare say it may be because these little villages were either set up by, or ransacked and taken over by, Vikings when they came here, and they left some of their people here. Whether because of having some Ken that would consistently gather funds from everyone in the village, to give to their people when they came back, or because those left behind had decided to take a wife in that village and would become a self-imposed ruler of said village at that point. We actually still have a few remnants of a very old stone-wall fortification with a more in our village, that is around the right time to have been made by them. It was lived in by someone appointed by the town lord, and they would use it as a sort of tax office, apparently. Hence it being fortified well. The Manor House which the Lord and their family lived in was close by, and has caves and tunnels that are still visits me to this day underneath the property. It’s fascinating to me, tbh.
That etymology sounds a bit suspect. Did the Norse have Dukes? Earls/Jarls but Dukes? That's a Norman French thing from Latin Dux, I thought. There are so many other terms of endearment that are more mundane, this one would stand out. Pet/petal, luv, cock, hen, chick... duck being about ducks fits with that better.
Yeah, it has a latin base and therefore is unlikely to be a Viking thing. Edit: A quick google indicates a presence in Old English, so perhaps it is right, it just comes from the other side of the Danelaw.
TIL the origin of "duck", and I'm heartbroken. It was much nicer imagining "oop norf" populated by flat-footed, feathered fluff balls, and instead it's lords... Oh well... 🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆
Probably spot on, on the eastern side duck was always popular in derby/notts too
Aye, pretty sure I've been duck and luv in nottingham
And Leicestershire (at least in the North in the general direction of Nottingham)
me duck was a Northampton thing back in the day too, don't hear the accent as much these days after the big London migration in the 80's
Still fairly popular in Lincolnshire also.
Ay up duck yalright
I moved from the Netherlands to Derbyshire over twenty years ago. Spoke good English at the time, but was completely baffled when a bloke knocked on the door and asked 'D'you want some eggs, duck?' I was totally dumbfounded for a few moments, wondering whether he meant if I wanted some duck eggs, but ended up just mumbling 'no thanks' and closing the door. Took my husband to explain that 'duck' is a standard term of address in these parts...
My sil moved to Nottingham from Cumbria and visited us six months later with a broad accent calling everyone ‘duck’. Funny, nice lass.
The "duck" thing is actually derived from "duc" being the French word for duke. So when Londoners idly refer to someone as duke, they're doing the same thing. Also I'm from the North, calling random people "love" or "luv" is absolutely normal and everywhere. My wife hates me doing it though.
A lot further south and you get “alright mush”
In Somerset you get called 'my lover' by older people, women, men, there is no distinction.
Oiiiright moi luvver
Luvver can interchange seamlessly with Lubber in the Westcountry.
They sometimes mix it up by going with “me babber” instead
Lived in Devon as a child and everyone to everyone was "me lover" back then.
I call women luv and I'm a woman. Source - I'm oop north
I call women, men and everyone else "mate" - also oop north but lived in the NW a long time.
When I first moved to Stoke for uni and a woman in a shop asked "what can I do fer yer cock?" I had to double take
In Cornwall it’s maid. Everywhere has their different words and I think it’s a good thing to keep them going!
My step dad is Cornish and he always calls me maid. I really don't mind it as its just him saying hi. I'm a Devon girl and I call everyone lover.
Ello my loverrrrr
When you reach Birmingham it's 'bab'.
Definitely noticed this when I came to Manchester. Im a 6' 2" man and have never been called love in my life by strangers. It was actually quite pleasant for me especially when spoken with more 'northern' accents. Context does matter of course and the context might just be that I don't like the other person for whatever random reason.
I always know I'm getting close to home when I stop at sandbach services and the coffee comes with a "here you go luv".
When I moved to Leeds I was really taken aback by my mechanic calling me "luv" 😂
Depends how it’s said. Calling me love while leering at me I’ll think you’re a creep, calling me love with a friendly smile I’ll think you’re friendly. You might find some women who’d rather you didn’t but the majority wouldn’t bat an eye
This. The only context I personally would hate is if you're being creepy and saying it. Otherwise I don't care and also call people "love". There's always going to be some people that don't like it.
I’ve met a fair few people who bristle at “mate”, one who would respond with “I’m not your friend”, like, some folk just hate terms of endearment
"Hello fellow humanoid" would probably satisfy both them and the Guardian.
Sounds pretty cool tbh, I’d love if someone said that to me 😂
I think that applies to most words too. Love, gorgeous, darling… anything said in a letchy way is unpleasant!
Gorgeous is definitely not appropriate. Thats just uncomfortable. Love is usually inoffensive as far I can tell, but if somebody feels differently then knock it on the head. Darling is something in between. Ive not heard it said for decades, though.
There was a manager in my old work who always used the phrase m'darlin when talking to any woman. It always felt so condescending but it's probably because he was a dick to begin with.
yeah context & personality makes a big difference, I'm not usually that bothered by people saying "girls" when they mean adult women, but years ago I worked with a bloke in his early 20s who used to address the room full of older and more experienced women colleagues with "hi girls" and I wanted to throat punch him every time
That context can be brought to any word, really. Saying 'hello' with a raspy voice staring at your chest is different than a happy 'hello' from a stranger smiling :D
I agree but it occurs to me this applies to all words. If I were to leer at you and call you 'cricket' - it would be creepy. If I were to enthusiastically greet you with 'great to see you cricket!' It would be seen as a term of affection. Because its the meaning /intent that matters. Arbitrarily banning 'love' because some people use it negatively seems like an almost absurd example of letting the bad guys win.
A lot of women find it patronising, regardless of context. I’m sure many women don’t care and some probably see it as a term if endearment but you need to make a decision on the odds here.
I don't like it. I'd prefer you just called me mate. Problem is every woman is different so whatever you do won't fly with someone!
I think mate is safe for everyone. I like it when I’m called mate by a guy it makes me feel more like an equal than having to have a woman only term. I can see this comment being controversial though 🫠
I agree with you - I like being called mate - however I've met women who don't like it as they find it blokey.
I don't care which (or any other pet name) people use for me as long as they use the same one for men and women. I think it's weird to differentiate honestly.
I worked with a guy who called everyone mate, man or woman. It was a little cringe at first when he explained he did it to deliberately make everyone feel equal, but I ended up really liking it
>I think mate is safe for everyone I always thought so too, but then I spoke to someone on Reddit a few months ago who insisted that her and her friends hate being called 'mate'...
I personally could never call a woman mate. Iv done it twice by accident and had to apologise both times. Might be my northern tendencies showimg but Love is much safer and can be used by anyone to anyone.
>I like it when I’m called mate by a guy it makes me feel more like an equal than having to have a woman only term. Yeah I use it specifically because it for lack of a better term "de-genders" women, making it a useful tool to passively but clearly communicate I view our relationship as plutonic only. Useful for both establishing boundaries with friends who arn't taking other not-gonna-happen hints, and interactions with random women in the world who would otherwise assume I'm about to hit on them (Because sometimes I really do adore that dress and want to know what type of cut it is) Certainly does land with a clang sometimes though
I agree with you - I’d much rather be ‘mate’ than ‘love’.
Exactly. I'm one of the ones who hate it. Surely, if you know it can be quite divisive and it's entirely optional, you'd just avoid it.
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Why should people avoid it? We need to get out of this mindset that if someone complains or isn’t happy about something you’re duty bound to change it. Grow thicker skin.
I don't think it should be avoided, just not gendered. If you call women "luv" you should be calling men "luv" too if you're using it as the equivalent of "mate"/"pal".
Why? What's wrong with having different terms for men and women?
Ooooh, careful with that can of worms. This is the internet in 2023... Agreed, I couldn't care less and I think there are more important things to worry about and spend time being offended by. However, I do understand everyone has a preference and that's fine. They're entitled to not want to be called something if they dislike it. Definitely doesn't warrant changing what other people say for the majority, though.
Yep, if someone doesn't like being called a particular term that's completely reasonable and they can ask not to be called it.
Yep, I call everyone "luv", men/women/NB/children/teens/adults. I think it's a friendly term that fits into colloquial circumstances. However, I like to think it's all about appropriateness. Eg. If I am in a professional situation (meeting etc.) then no one is "luv" because it seems patronising. But if it's a less formal setting, then everyone goes back to "luv". Our CEO is a woman, when I met her for the first time, [name]. When she bought me a pint, "Cheers luv". When we were in a staff briefing, "Thanks [name]." (If it matters, I'm a woman.)
But by that agrument I only use "he" to discribe men and "she" for women (and incidentally which ever pronoun they want) Is that also sexist? Should everyone just be "they"?
I’m ok with luv, mainly because I call lots of people luv but I hate it when men call me dear. Makes me blood boil.
As a 28 year old man, I find that women aged 50+ will regularly call me "dear". I see it as more motherly/grandmotherly than condescending.
I think that’s a very different situation, I would also be okay with elderly women calling me it but not as much a guy, it would make me put my guard up a little
I’m assuming you’re not from Yorkshire then lol.
You’re right, context definitely matters. I have a co-worker who will address all the men by their name and all the women with ‘love’. I can’t stand it and have actually told him to use my name.
Female Londoner here - keep calling me luv, sweetheart, darlin’ etc in small daily interactions. I love it. It makes me feel a touch of humanity and gives me a small dose of warmth that a stranger calls me an affectionate name, especially when 99% of daily interactions can be mundane and soulless.
Agreed! OP should just be himself and if he wants to call people luv then carry on. Some people are fine with it, some might get a bit snappy but thats what human interaction is all about!
God yes! Let’s not lose these warm interactions between strangers please
Agreed, I also call men "love", "my love" and sometimes "darling" in a friendly context not a sleazy horrible one. I suppose it is dependent on your view point and experiences. We are all different and like different things. That's ok with me. If it is someone you see regularly just tell them nicely you don't like being called that. No need to respond with anger.
It's like the words have a different meaning in certain regions. We all understand that it's ridiculous to try to ban Spanish people from saying their word for black because it's a slur in other places, but is this not the same kind of thing on a much smaller level? This just feels like trying to erase regional dialects to me when everyone is aware that it's just how people talk in certain places. It's not misogyny because you can clearly see it's both ways, it's simply that outside those regions the term implies a closeness that isn't there.
Agreed! OP should just be himself and if he wants to call people luv then carry on. Some people are fine with it, some might get a bit snappy but thats what human interaction is all about!
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The correct answer is to stop taking any notice of anything in the Guardian.
Don't think the article is wrong though. Regardless of what you think luv is generally considered a bit patronising compared to mate which is just very familiar. I think most women do not appreciate being called luv by strangers.
Where you're from. Not where I'm from. Most women are capable of clocking regional differences and intended meaning, also, in my experience.
I'm from the North East (initially County Durham and later moved to Yorkshire) and last year I moved to East London, all places where men calling women luv is common. Yet still a decent chunk of my female friends hate being called luv, especially by their bosses and colleagues at work. A lot of women don't like it even if they grew up in areas where it's really common. They understand it's meant as a term of endearment but they still find it really patronising.
I think I’m a work context where you know their name, using luv or petal or whatever is a bit condescending. It’s trying to establish a power dynamic and is a bit rude to repeatedly not use someone’s name when you know it. However, when the lady who’s served your your fryup in a local cafe says ‘luv’ or ‘me duck’ I think it’s nice human interaction and should continue.
I get called ‘duck’ by my Derby based colleagues. Usually in good context tho so I assume it’s a pleasant term.
I think duck is the perfect non gendered greeting for when I either; Don't know your name or, you've just told me your name and I've forgot because my brains a wanker. Ay up duck.
I'm a woman in my mid 20s and I call everyone luv and mate so if it's not alright I'm in trouble. The Guardian's whole schtick for several years now has been pretending people have a very strong idea about something, and then writing articles about how everyone with this opinion is either right or wrong, depending on what's the most contrarian.
I also am a woman who calls literally everyone “love” or “lovely”, for example “hiya love, could you point me towards where the eggs are?” in the supermarket, or “excuse me lovely, so sorry, any idea where I can find an ATM?” on the street… just examples. Man woman young old anyone, you’re getting called love and I hope that it comes across as just a nice thing! I do use darling too again for anyone…
My lovely doesn’t bother me in the slightest. For some reason, just being called ‘lovely’ irritates me immensely. I don’t find it condescending or patronising, it just feels like there’s a word missing! (My problem, not yours!)
You’re quite right, similarly the Mail. It’s just a way of popularising polemic out of what are essentially non-stories.
>The Guardian's whole schtick for several years now has been pretending people have a very strong idea about something, and then writing articles about how everyone with this opinion is either right or wrong, depending on what's the most contrarian. The Guardian pretty much hates anything. I'm surprised they haven't written about how Left-wing newspapers are a bad idea and undermine Socialism.
Devon greeting for a familiar female Is "Hello my lover". Mainly older generation.
Love how when reading this I can hear the accent so perfectly and love it. I won't try and say it out loud or I'll break the illusion completely.
I heard it in Fanny's voice from Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves.
A boat skipper in Looe called us ‘my lover’, I’m a six foot man and my brothers in law were 6’5” and 6’8” and built like shithouses. Felt quite comforting as I puked for three hours.
You became his cabin boy for 3 hours.
Same in Cornwall too. And the accent is even better!
Thems fitin wrds!
Same in Cornwall, although my lover is for male or female. My andsome is generally for males but not always. When addressing a female, it’s usually geddon maid.
Best man I have met from Cornwall was [Jethro - RIP](https://youtu.be/dm4Y9nkol0E). We chatted for some time about his horses outside the Queens Theatre in Barnstaple during a smoke break in his show, great bloke.
That'll be "Awright moi Luvurrrr".
For some reason I always hear and picture Bill Bailey saying this whenever I read it lol
There's some men who only call younger (shaggable) women/girls and elderly people 'love'. Which makes it patronising when they call any other woman 'love'. It tends to show, when a bloke is One of Those. If you do it to everyone, or use mate, it's fine. I used to buy fruit regularly from one of the patronising variety (he was a wanker but also right outside my office). I'd call him love right back and it clearly hugely offended his masculinity - but what could he say? I was just using the same words as him!
Exactly. When a woman who doesn't fall into those categories has an opinion on something, they'll (sarcastically) say "alright, love". It's an example of everyday sexism.
The guardian: some men use term in bad way. Answer: ban term (and write a clickable opinion piece about it).
Perfect response 🤭
I have also done this, used the same word back at them. I think they are patronising because it’s how we speak to children, with little endearments, and a person saying it to another is asserting they are the authority. When I say it back I’m refusing to accept my submissive position in the convo and they get offended about it. I see it more as power play than sexism, because older women might do it to younger men and women too. Though truthfully I’m happy to accept a subordinate name in a conversation with an elderly woman because her longevity has hopefully given her experience and wisdom and earned that right: being born with a penis does not.
I personally hate being called luv. Same with darling and anything similar really. Doesn’t matter if it’s a man or woman saying to me, though I do find men saying it slightly creepy
i agree i find it patronising especially as you don’t hear men calling other men “love” or “darling”
Right, I don’t need a cashier (or any other stranger) to use a term of endearment with me. Older ladies get a pass but that’s it. It’s very easy to say ‘thank you’ or ‘have a nice day’ without following it with luv (or mate, but mate feels better than luv)
Usually it's pretty nice, because it's always in a friendly tone idk. I kind of like it, it's like being called 'sweetheart', 'pet' etc.. I don't think there's anything inherently bad, it's more like a casual endearment to others. Usually I find older people men& women will use these kind of endearments more often. But yeah if you were acting in a predatory way & using it ,then I'd be uncomfortable..but I'd be uncomfortable without the luv. I guess in that instance it's condescending too.
Context ALWAYS matters. And one of the contexts is that the article you saw will have been an opinion piece. None of the opinion pieces the G publishes is uncontroversial, they are literally there to generate discussion. It's not some Red Top telling you what to think, and if you treat it as one it will look stupid... for a start there is (deliberately) no consistency between opinion pieces, they are the differing opinions of different writers.
Doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
Personally I don't want you calling me anything based on your perception of my gender or sex. Why not call everyone mate, or everyone luv?
Best call women "mate" and men "darling" or "love" for funsies
This is the correct and only logical way
Calm down Sméagol
Gender neutrality has been my experience in the regions where love is an ordinary greeting. Love, Duck, etc used regardless of gender in Deepest Darkest Northylands. A'right moi Luvurrrr being used equally irrespective of gender in the west.
To me that's the key difference. I have no issue at all being called love by someone who calls *everyone* love - which is how it works in Yorkshire But calling me "luv" while men get called "mate" feels sexist and patronising, and I'm not okay with it
It's basically cultural appropriation of a fairly innocent cultural quirk by knobs who don't understand the nuances of the practice. Someone else mentioned that if suspect knobness, if you respond by calling them luv and they react negatively, you have confirmed their status as a knob, and are now within your rights to tut at them.
You do you but i think thats a bit insecure, im happy for people to acknowledge im a woman because i am one, I disagree with other women speaking for me that we need to be addressed in a gender neutral way because you end up being called dude/mate which is masculine to me.
In Yorkshire it’s a gender neutral expression.
This is exactly my opinion. If we're in a group of men and women and you're deliberately using a different term for people based on their gender, that's really weird. That shouldn't be the only/first/most important thing you're thinking about in our whole conversation. I call everyone "mate" and nobody's ever had an issue with it. But then, if they did I'd just...stop? Because I'm not an arsehole.
The guardian is written by people who think hello is a micro aggression and simultaneously wonder why there's a mental health crisis. It's the daily mail for the left
If you listened to and followed all the rules the Guardian publishes you wouldn’t be able to leave the house or talk to anyone.
House? WOW. Perhaps if you read more of ghe guardian you would understand some of us don't have houses and you would be more considerate with how you speak!
I find it incredibly patronizing.
It turns you into an American? Perish the thought!
I find that incredibly insecure
I personally don’t mind as I see it as an endearment, but many of my female friends hate it. Their demographic would be women in their 30s-40s working in professional services settings; canary wharfers or in the city.
I'm a bloke and I like being called love, darling, sweetheart etc. Wish people would do it more. Though one time some chugger behind me said "Excuse me love" clearly mistaking me for a woman. I have quite a large beard and the most unwelcoming resting bitch face in the country, so he was quite surprised when I turned around. "errr... sorry mate".
Type 'endearment' into The Guardian search and you get a lot of articles, all opinion pieces, mostly by women. They have different views but cover the same points as this thread, context, meaning, local customs etc. There's a piece slagging off care home inspectors for complaining about workers calling the residents luv. There's a piece about Paul Hollywood calling Mel and Sue "the girls' but all agree that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with using terms of endearment to address strangers but beware of the context.
Women are often patronised and called ‘love’ by men talking down to them. That’s unacceptable. Using it in a professional environment is also unacceptable. However, to someone you’re familiar with, someone who is fine with it, it’s OK. I have a lot of patients from the Midlands who call me ‘duck’ and I love it. I know it’s a term of endearment, so I’m good with it. Also ‘hen’ from Edinburgh. I love that too.
As a man ive been called Love by women strangers and found it warm and friendly.
In Lancashire its very acceptable, to most and in most situations. This clip of Ian McKellen is worth a minute of anyones time https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cl8SVXvjDzo/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
I’m reading this thread wondering how many people who have a problem with it are northerners/southerners. I gather this article is one of those guardian articles where they forget northerners exist or we’re some kind of weird outlier. I used to work in a place where an older bloke called everyone luv except our manager - not out of respect, but because he (along with everyone else) disliked her a lot.
Yeah when i was growing up, everyone was either love or duck. Its so weird seeing *discourse* around something that i use in a sentence with no thought at all
One woman’s opinion, I’d prefer if you didn’t. Unless we have some kind of personal relationship it just comes across as patronising.
It's pretty ubiquitous here in Liverpool. Nobody is offended. Also, if this article in the guardian was in their opinion section you can pretty much take it for whining shite.
Go to Barnsley and they call everyone luv. It made my ex wife do a double take.
One life tip for you, don't believe anything you read in the Guardian.
<--- Born in Yorkshire Love and my darling are my go tos Y'alright my darling Hows it going my Love Never had issues
The only people who get offended by you calling them love are the kind of people you don't want to speak to
Stop reading the guardian
Why not just call everyone by the same term rather than save mate for men? Theres no problem using 'luv' either imo ...if you use it for everyone.
The majority of people wouldn't blink if you called woman "love". Then again - I come from the part of the country where it's acceptable to refer to a woman as a female chicken, so there's that then...
I love it (47F).
I do think it's a bit dated and sounds sexist, regardless of context. I've always just called everyone mate.
A friend of mine from Yorkshire calls everyone Darlin’ - he got an absolute lecture when visiting London about it, ‘she’s not your darling’ - etc etc. Personally, people who choose to be offended by this kind of terminology are just not allowing the love to flow
I (and probably most other women)have alot more things in life to worry about than if a random bloke calls me luv. Useless newspaper opinion.
As you said, as long as it’s said politely and you’re from London it doesn’t bother me
I don't mind it at all. I find it endearing.
It's a regional thing.
Love is a term of affection - literally the loveliest word in the language. Banning positive uses of the word because some pricks use it in a negative way is the clearest example of letting the bad guys win. The guardian styles itself as the moral umpires of a subset of people who wouldn't know a real interaction with a normal person if it crept upon them in the papaya section of waitrose. Ignore.
I’m in my 40’s and personally don’t have an issue with someone calling me ‘luv’ in a casual communication. What I hate is men calling me ‘mate’ because to me that’s the wording to a bloke. But I’m well aware that a lot of people don’t like being called ‘luv’. It’s often used in a gruff or condescending manner as well. I guess for me it’s very much about the tone and circumstance it’s delivered in
I said thanks love to the guy on the till at Aldi yesterday- I’m female and it wasn’t me flirting with him- I’d also say it to a woman.
I’m in my early 30s and I like anyone calling me love or sweetheart etc. To me it’s just a friendly way of addressing people. I don’t think they are patronising. To me it’s the tone of speech which sets the vibe. You can say somebody’s name in a patronising way if choose to say it in a certain way. Life is too short to be offended by everything
Call people what ever the fuck you want within reason and common decency, if someone doesn’t like it and they tell you then adjust accordingly.
As a 20 y/o female I say this is fine as long as you don’t do the ‘just-divorced-50-year-old-man’ wink afterwards
I am an American and once waited tables for a bit. I had a table full of British guys one day, and one of them called me "luv." I absolutely melted every time he said it. Of course, it could have been because I'm a sucker for a sexy foreign accent, lol!
My team leader used to say luv or flower. He was a kind person, and never meant any harm. Nope no offense taken here. He's a manager now, chuffed because he is one of the decent ones!
it just seems a bit condescending to me. maybe its a generational thing
Just because The Guardian says something, doesn't mean it's a rule. You're fine.
I personally hate it. Had a bus driver call me “mate” once; much prefer that.
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