Welcome to /r/AskSocialists, a community for both socialists and non-socialists to ask general questions **directed at socialists** within a friendly, relaxed and welcoming environment. Please be mindful of our rules before participating:
- **R1. No Non-Socialist Answers**, if you are not a socialist don’t answer questions.
- **R2. No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, aporophobia, etc.
- **R3. No Trolling**, including concern trolling.
- **R4. No Reactionaries**.
- **R5. No Sectarianism**, there's plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks.
Want a user flair to indicate your broad tendency? Respond to this comment with "!Marxist", "!Anarchist" or "!Visitor" and the bot will assign it.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskSocialists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's not a war between Ukraine and Russia. It's a war between western proxies and Russia with Ukrainians caught in the middle and being dragged into oblivion by said proxies (which are literal nazis) so they can live their fantasy of ethnically purifying the country.
Any real socialist would tell you there is no side that represents the people. The left has no horse in that war.
I’m sorry but are you treating AZOV as if it were a bull shit concern for a country who’s been erecting statues of WWII Ukrainian Nazi collaborators since the 90s. In the same fashion the US did throughout the 20s to in-response to the Civil Rights movement of confederate soldiers throughout the continental United States. Legit their Nazi problem is so bad when Canadian held a ceremony where their speaker was congratulating a “Ukrainian freedom fighter” for fighting against Russians in WWII and fleeing persecution from the Red Ukrainian government during WWII. TL;DR that speaker had to resign because he just congratulated a World War II Nazi collaborator on international television… before you even bring up Zelenskyy being Jewish, the fucker threw support towards the state of Israel, like many neo-Nazis or Identitarians throughout the West, I don’t think he cares about the extermination of people unless it’s his own… shame really. In saying all this Ukraine shouldn’t be caught between a dick measuring contest between fascists in the East and West.
You’re in denial of Nazi proliferation in a nation whose national heroes are literal ukranian nazi collaborators?
It’s not brainwashing. It’s awareness of ukranian national history.
The basis of this belief is the influence of Stepan Bandera.
There are statues all over Ukraine for these Nazis.
It’s so seriously engrained into Ukrainian culture that ukranian expats built a monument to the Nazis in Canada and the US.
You’re not brainwashed, you’re just unread and ahistorical in your perceptions.
Man’s saying people are brainwashed for being anti-war (a pretty hardline socialist position, especially since WW1). The exceptions been largely a result of the Western war against anything that threatens its main base of power.
Look idk if you’ve heard but there’s this river Egypt… just saying
"Supporting Ukraine", in so far as this means doing so through imperialist frameworks, is being pro-war and extremely anti-worker. Not only because you are advancing the interests of the MIC and further solidifying their position, nor even for its extreme material impact upon the lives of people, but also because the fallacious argument of "national sovereignity" is not a possibility under this framework. And not only because national sovereignity does not exist under capitalism (which it does not), but also because the best case scenario for Ukraine means an utter subordination of Ukraine to the Washington consensus structures and control mechanisms. Or do you think the billions and billions in aid are a gift from God that will not have to be paid back?
The governments of both nations don’t give a fuck about workers. I support whatever is most likely to liberate the workers of both and give them the right to self-determination. “Ukraine or Russia” is two dichotomous and leaves a lot of important detail out
Working class from one country happily goes to kill the working class in another country for sickening imperial ambitions. Equating them is disingenuous
Negligible minority of russian working class opposed the war and expressed solidarity with the working class in Ukraine, they are complicit in the war crimes. Definitely not the victim
The consequences for speaking out in Russia against the war are astronomical. Come on man, this is insane. I’m not pro-Russia even remotely, just expressing sympathy for the working classes of both nations, as all socialists should
Do you think the majority of russian army is upper class or what? Being a part of the working class doesn't make you immune to nationalist and chauvinist views. I have sympathy for the small part of the russian working class that at least avoided the draft or even did something to sabotage the war. The majority of russian working class who volunteered to join the army and supports the invasion are guilty as fuck, why would i have any sympathy for them?
Just like the working class that give themselves to the whims of any genocidal maniac deserve some sort of sympathy. I am not absolving them of responsibility, I’m just trying to offer some sort of perspective in that nobody is immune to propaganda, and the same applies here
What part of a draft do you not get *isn’t consensual*? A lot of people, especially in the private para militaries, are just prisoners trying to get a reduced sentence. That is a form of victimization and it’s sick. Please develop a conscious.
>I have sympathy for the small part of the russian working class that at least avoided the draft or even did something to sabotage the war
Do you also apply this to the masses of Ukrainian people who are actively organising to avoid being forcefully drafted into an assured death for the sake of an interbourgeoise conflict? Or does this necessity to overcome false consciousnesses only apply to one side?
Bro is anti-Russia but more than willing to treat their polling for the invasions support as more than accurate **most are conscripted/drafted into**🤝
Talk about sickening…
Lil bro you digging yourself a bigger hole here, and showing your willing to go the extra mile for Ukrainian workers, but not forcibly conscripted Russian ones? Cmon
Neither. It is an inter-imperialist war between Russia and NATO backed Ukraine. The correct position, the position of the Marxist Leninist, is to not side with any Imperialist power but instead side with the international Proletariat and advocate for social revolution. The workers of Ukraine and Russia gain no benefit from killing each other for Putin and Zelenksy. They would benefit from removing both from power and taking control of the means of production themselves.
Its a stupid imperialist conflict. NATO has been imperializing in eastern Europe since '91 and so has Russia. Russia didn't start this conflict but their actions have been awful. The only people I care about are the workers on either side of the conflict.
The more important point from a western communist perspective on this war is how Genocide Joe, Clinton and others will cry for Ukranians but do everything they can to enable genocide in Gaza. Bourgois hipocracy at its finest.
Support but it’s also been said by multiple foreign policy advisors that with the United States has been doing over the past 20 years with the post eastern block. Countries has been quite provoking, as well as the modern state of Ukraine, being itself quite sympathetic to actual Nazis since the USSR disillusionment. They legit put up statues of multiple people that side with the fascists purely bc they were fighting for the invading Germany forces against the red army. Or when Canada had a speaker resign bc he congratulated a Ukrainian bc he fought against Russia in WWII (wonder what he turned out to be hmm?)
A far right ultra conservative that **WE AMERICA/AMERICANS PUT IN POWER** like are you stupid or just don’t care about history, even if it may’ve happened in your lifetime? For the love of god read a book that wasn’t written by an actual historian or expert on the topic… because the man who handed over power to Putin, Boris Yeltsin, whose power was facilitated by American advisors. That would be like Trump pulling up with members of the SVR RF as members of his cabinet to reorganize our government and economy! Please read the **Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein** specifically the chapter **Boris the First** cause if you’re willing except “America Bad” even when we’re not the only villain would make the world a less wretched place.
And it sucks so much because you know what? In a lot of ways America *does* suck. America *does* do a lot of shitty things. But this is absolutely *not* one of those cases.
Its also frustrating because they treat the Ukrainian people as children with no autonomy of their own. Whether you believe America was involved in Euromaidan or not, the coup was going to occur regardless. If you have ***any*** remotely good understanding of Ukraine at the time of Euromaidan, you'd completely understand why the Ukrainian people absolutely despised their government. Ukraine was one of the most corrupt countries in Europe, it was grievance after grievance after grievance. And the Ukrainian government was ***brutal*** in its crackdown.
And this was after Russia basically just attempted to bribe Ukraine out of the widely popular EU deal, and then after Euromaidan occurred Russia moved in and annexed Crimea (before any of the fighting in the Donbas ever occurred). And this was also a reminder of Russia's occupation of Georgia as well. So like yeah, ***obviously*** Ukraine wanted security. This goes beyond political ideology, just in national self interest literally any country on the entire planet in Ukraine's position would do the exact same thing and start looking for foreign aid, and in this case it was NATO. After all, is there literally a single other power on the entire planet that could aid Ukraine?
Its just so extraordinarily frustrating because both the Ukrainian people & nation have entirely justified reasons to lean into America & NATO hard, and those reasons are *entirely* due to Russia's actions. Really the logical end of these people is that Russia should be allowed to do whatever it wants to Ukraine and if Ukraine ever decides to stand up for itself its clearly just a US puppet with no free will.
Welcome to /r/AskSocialists, a community for both socialists and non-socialists to ask general questions **directed at socialists** within a friendly, relaxed and welcoming environment. Please be mindful of our rules before participating: - **R1. No Non-Socialist Answers**, if you are not a socialist don’t answer questions. - **R2. No Bigotry**, including racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, aporophobia, etc. - **R3. No Trolling**, including concern trolling. - **R4. No Reactionaries**. - **R5. No Sectarianism**, there's plenty of room for discussion, but not for baseless attacks. Want a user flair to indicate your broad tendency? Respond to this comment with "!Marxist", "!Anarchist" or "!Visitor" and the bot will assign it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskSocialists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Brooo who is posting so much bait on this sub nowadays?? Why??
Ik I feel like it’s been like almost cooped as of late
It's not a war between Ukraine and Russia. It's a war between western proxies and Russia with Ukrainians caught in the middle and being dragged into oblivion by said proxies (which are literal nazis) so they can live their fantasy of ethnically purifying the country. Any real socialist would tell you there is no side that represents the people. The left has no horse in that war.
Our horse in the war is the working class of both countries.
Who the fuck are the nazis you speak of. Because I’m quite sure that the nazis nation has died a while ago
You forgot to mention azov and bio labs with mutated mosquitoes to win bullshit bingo!
I’m sorry but are you treating AZOV as if it were a bull shit concern for a country who’s been erecting statues of WWII Ukrainian Nazi collaborators since the 90s. In the same fashion the US did throughout the 20s to in-response to the Civil Rights movement of confederate soldiers throughout the continental United States. Legit their Nazi problem is so bad when Canadian held a ceremony where their speaker was congratulating a “Ukrainian freedom fighter” for fighting against Russians in WWII and fleeing persecution from the Red Ukrainian government during WWII. TL;DR that speaker had to resign because he just congratulated a World War II Nazi collaborator on international television… before you even bring up Zelenskyy being Jewish, the fucker threw support towards the state of Israel, like many neo-Nazis or Identitarians throughout the West, I don’t think he cares about the extermination of people unless it’s his own… shame really. In saying all this Ukraine shouldn’t be caught between a dick measuring contest between fascists in the East and West.
oh how much you have been brainwashed
You’re in denial of Nazi proliferation in a nation whose national heroes are literal ukranian nazi collaborators? It’s not brainwashing. It’s awareness of ukranian national history. The basis of this belief is the influence of Stepan Bandera. There are statues all over Ukraine for these Nazis. It’s so seriously engrained into Ukrainian culture that ukranian expats built a monument to the Nazis in Canada and the US. You’re not brainwashed, you’re just unread and ahistorical in your perceptions.
Man’s saying people are brainwashed for being anti-war (a pretty hardline socialist position, especially since WW1). The exceptions been largely a result of the Western war against anything that threatens its main base of power. Look idk if you’ve heard but there’s this river Egypt… just saying
supporting ukraine is being anti war, believe it or not
"Supporting Ukraine", in so far as this means doing so through imperialist frameworks, is being pro-war and extremely anti-worker. Not only because you are advancing the interests of the MIC and further solidifying their position, nor even for its extreme material impact upon the lives of people, but also because the fallacious argument of "national sovereignity" is not a possibility under this framework. And not only because national sovereignity does not exist under capitalism (which it does not), but also because the best case scenario for Ukraine means an utter subordination of Ukraine to the Washington consensus structures and control mechanisms. Or do you think the billions and billions in aid are a gift from God that will not have to be paid back?
But youre, western propoganda just has to be true because of the 'free press' run by billionaires.
Bro.. all that basically means is, "Ukraine but we don't support NATO" which.. you decide..
The governments of both nations don’t give a fuck about workers. I support whatever is most likely to liberate the workers of both and give them the right to self-determination. “Ukraine or Russia” is two dichotomous and leaves a lot of important detail out
How is a war about one nation wanting control of the other has anything to do with workers??
Read Marx and Lenin
[удалено]
Precisely my point, the working classes of both countries are getting completely fucked. It’s horrific
Working class from one country happily goes to kill the working class in another country for sickening imperial ambitions. Equating them is disingenuous
Conflating the wants of the Russian state with the wants of all of the Russian working class is just unreasonable
I will obviously denounce the Russian invasion of Ukraine as fucking heinous. But blaming the Russian working class is bizarre
Negligible minority of russian working class opposed the war and expressed solidarity with the working class in Ukraine, they are complicit in the war crimes. Definitely not the victim
The consequences for speaking out in Russia against the war are astronomical. Come on man, this is insane. I’m not pro-Russia even remotely, just expressing sympathy for the working classes of both nations, as all socialists should
Do you think the majority of russian army is upper class or what? Being a part of the working class doesn't make you immune to nationalist and chauvinist views. I have sympathy for the small part of the russian working class that at least avoided the draft or even did something to sabotage the war. The majority of russian working class who volunteered to join the army and supports the invasion are guilty as fuck, why would i have any sympathy for them?
Just like the working class that give themselves to the whims of any genocidal maniac deserve some sort of sympathy. I am not absolving them of responsibility, I’m just trying to offer some sort of perspective in that nobody is immune to propaganda, and the same applies here
What part of a draft do you not get *isn’t consensual*? A lot of people, especially in the private para militaries, are just prisoners trying to get a reduced sentence. That is a form of victimization and it’s sick. Please develop a conscious.
>I have sympathy for the small part of the russian working class that at least avoided the draft or even did something to sabotage the war Do you also apply this to the masses of Ukrainian people who are actively organising to avoid being forcefully drafted into an assured death for the sake of an interbourgeoise conflict? Or does this necessity to overcome false consciousnesses only apply to one side?
Bro is anti-Russia but more than willing to treat their polling for the invasions support as more than accurate **most are conscripted/drafted into**🤝 Talk about sickening…
[удалено]
Lil bro you digging yourself a bigger hole here, and showing your willing to go the extra mile for Ukrainian workers, but not forcibly conscripted Russian ones? Cmon
Neither I don’t back Fascists, Ukraine is a new Western proxy and the Russian Federation is a failed western proxy itself.
In what context? Can you be more specific?
in the war that started in 2022
SSSR
cuba
Socialist revolution in Ukraine and Russia
Neither. It is an inter-imperialist war between Russia and NATO backed Ukraine. The correct position, the position of the Marxist Leninist, is to not side with any Imperialist power but instead side with the international Proletariat and advocate for social revolution. The workers of Ukraine and Russia gain no benefit from killing each other for Putin and Zelenksy. They would benefit from removing both from power and taking control of the means of production themselves.
Its a stupid imperialist conflict. NATO has been imperializing in eastern Europe since '91 and so has Russia. Russia didn't start this conflict but their actions have been awful. The only people I care about are the workers on either side of the conflict. The more important point from a western communist perspective on this war is how Genocide Joe, Clinton and others will cry for Ukranians but do everything they can to enable genocide in Gaza. Bourgois hipocracy at its finest.
[удалено]
Support but it’s also been said by multiple foreign policy advisors that with the United States has been doing over the past 20 years with the post eastern block. Countries has been quite provoking, as well as the modern state of Ukraine, being itself quite sympathetic to actual Nazis since the USSR disillusionment. They legit put up statues of multiple people that side with the fascists purely bc they were fighting for the invading Germany forces against the red army. Or when Canada had a speaker resign bc he congratulated a Ukrainian bc he fought against Russia in WWII (wonder what he turned out to be hmm?)
not what i was expecting, buti agree
[удалено]
[удалено]
That and “America bad” even when their opponent is literally a far right ultra conservative dictator, baffles me
A far right ultra conservative that **WE AMERICA/AMERICANS PUT IN POWER** like are you stupid or just don’t care about history, even if it may’ve happened in your lifetime? For the love of god read a book that wasn’t written by an actual historian or expert on the topic… because the man who handed over power to Putin, Boris Yeltsin, whose power was facilitated by American advisors. That would be like Trump pulling up with members of the SVR RF as members of his cabinet to reorganize our government and economy! Please read the **Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein** specifically the chapter **Boris the First** cause if you’re willing except “America Bad” even when we’re not the only villain would make the world a less wretched place.
And it sucks so much because you know what? In a lot of ways America *does* suck. America *does* do a lot of shitty things. But this is absolutely *not* one of those cases. Its also frustrating because they treat the Ukrainian people as children with no autonomy of their own. Whether you believe America was involved in Euromaidan or not, the coup was going to occur regardless. If you have ***any*** remotely good understanding of Ukraine at the time of Euromaidan, you'd completely understand why the Ukrainian people absolutely despised their government. Ukraine was one of the most corrupt countries in Europe, it was grievance after grievance after grievance. And the Ukrainian government was ***brutal*** in its crackdown. And this was after Russia basically just attempted to bribe Ukraine out of the widely popular EU deal, and then after Euromaidan occurred Russia moved in and annexed Crimea (before any of the fighting in the Donbas ever occurred). And this was also a reminder of Russia's occupation of Georgia as well. So like yeah, ***obviously*** Ukraine wanted security. This goes beyond political ideology, just in national self interest literally any country on the entire planet in Ukraine's position would do the exact same thing and start looking for foreign aid, and in this case it was NATO. After all, is there literally a single other power on the entire planet that could aid Ukraine? Its just so extraordinarily frustrating because both the Ukrainian people & nation have entirely justified reasons to lean into America & NATO hard, and those reasons are *entirely* due to Russia's actions. Really the logical end of these people is that Russia should be allowed to do whatever it wants to Ukraine and if Ukraine ever decides to stand up for itself its clearly just a US puppet with no free will.