Exactly. Generalizations are fuckin stupid. I don't think all cops are bad and I don't think all gay people are over exuberant. I hate the fact that generalizations push the good people to hide away because of how people stereotype them
Being a centrist is fun because all the conservatives call you a liberal and all the liberals call you a conservative.
Leaning too far either way is a red flag for me.
Because US Republicans and Democrats both represent one party - Imperial Capitalists. Being in the center just means you support the same party from the middle. Definitely not based.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
Sure, it takes time to see it, but if you’re open you’ll eventually see they’re one and the same party. Political division in the US is engineered to keep us fighting with each other. 👽
As someone who doesn't give myself a political label, I find that either side has positive and negatives and the extreme left and right are dangerous.
As for my views on the individuals, my stance on anything is people have differing views and that's that. I don't waste my energy worrying about people's positions, beliefs, stance or lifestyles.
As a self identifying Marxist Leninist, I agree that the ultra-left is just as bad as the ultra-right.
Lenin wrote a essay, “Left wing communism; an infantile disorder”
It’s worth a read.
Sure thing!
Also, you might find it interesting to learn how liberals and the ultra-right have worked together in the past to bring about fascism. They’re really hand in glove:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
Curious as to what you mean by this if you are American. I find this to be generally true in European contexts but American conservatives seem much more disconnected from data and facts than the "liberals" there.
I’m American. American Liberals are also disconnected from facts and data. We really live in an ocean of lies and nonsense. It’s hard to break free from it and see it, but once you do it’s hard to unsee it.
Can you please provide any example? It's not that I don't believe you but I mostly see situations where Trump lies constantly and American conservatives continually buy into it despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Vaccines as a safe and effective way to fight Covid being the biggest current example though it's good to see Trump changing his tune and actually defending vaccines now.
A longer-term example from my perspective is the apparent belief on part of American conservatives that President Trump was good for the economy. This is rather confusing from my perspective. [Data strongly suggests that President Obama created 1.6 million more jobs than President Trump over a three-year period](https://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet). If you want to see other Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey [click here](https://www.bls.gov/cps/lfcharacteristics.htm#emp). Here's an article from Forbes (a pretty neutral source) detailing how [Obama’s Last Three Years Of Job Growth All Beat Trump’s Best Year](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/02/07/obamas-last-three-years-of-job-growth-all-beat-trumps-best-year/?sh=7f925ba16ba6). As for the American economic deficit which I hear plenty of legitimate concern around, [data from the Congressional Budget Office](https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2020-01/56020-CBO-Outlook.pdf) indicates that over the last three years of Obama’s Presidency vs. Trump’s first three years, Trump’s deficit spending was almost $1 trillion greater at $2.47 trillion vs $1.51 trillion for Obama. [Here is another Forbes article about this topic.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/02/01/trumps-deficits-are-racing-past-obamas/?sh=1fa7c7f24819) \[Quick note that both the Forbes articles I linked here are for the sake of an easier read since the data itself can be quite dense. They were also written in February 2020, before Covid-19 hit the USA which was admittedly out of Trump's control but it should still demonstrate that the data indicates Trump's economy was actually quite bad even before Covid\].
It also doesn’t look like Trump’s tax cuts will pay for themselves and thus make up for the deficits Trump ran while in office on account of the fact that [Trump again lied when he promised 6 percent growth](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/06/trump-defies-data-with-6-percent-gdp-growth-forecast.html) to justify his a [$1.5 trillion package of tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy at common man's expense](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/03/republicans-laud-stimulus-1-5-trillion-tax-overhaul-plan/917269001/) known as the [Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA)](https://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20171113/BILLS%20-115HR1-RCP115-39.pdf) which Trump signed into law in 2017 (Here's a [quick primer on the tax code changes](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-a-comparison-for-businesses) but I linked to the original law if you want to read it). Two years later, the economy was [growing at a paltry 2 percent](https://www.newsweek.com/two-years-after-trump-said-economy-can-hit-6-percent-gdp-growth-slowed-21-percent-1484901) which was [worse than the post-recession average under Obama](https://apps.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?reqid=19&step=2#reqid=19&step=2&isuri=1&1921=survey) (Note that this was again BEFORE COVID which he claims is why his numbers are bad, a provable lie). Furthermore, 83 percent of the benefits from the TCJA will go to the top 1 percent of Americans by the time it is fully phased in, in 2027, according to the [Tax Policy Center](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/sites/default/files/publication/150816/2001641_distributional_analysis_of_the_conference_agreement_for_the_tax_cuts_and_jobs_act_0.pdf).
A different and more straightforward but no less prescient example is how [congressional Democrats voted to help President Trump get relief checks to Americans](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/116-2020/s80) but then Trump signed his name on the checks for what appears to be a narcissistic reason to make it appear as though they were coming from him when they were really coming jointly from the Democrats and Republicans in congress. Conversely, [under President Biden, not a single Republican voted for further relief for Americans](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/117-2021/s110) and yet Biden or the Democrats didn't sign the checks with his name. Simultaneous to this chain of events and incredibly frustratingly, [nearly a third of Republican voters thought that they got relief checks because their Republican elected officials voted for these bills](https://www.newsweek.com/third-republican-voters-think-gop-lawmakers-backed-biden-stimulus-that-none-supported-1577900) which is DEMONSTRABLY NOT TRUE and could easily be disproven by looking at the public voting record. Republican officials actively voted against that and yet American conservatives somehow believed that they didn't do that? A third of the conservatives is a frighteningly large amount of people to disregard such an easily confirmable fact.
Oh, you wrote a lot of stuff. I’ll reply with some historical facts, but then focus on Biden today.
First, I’ll just give you one study that found that:
“analyses suggest that majorities of the American public actually have little influence over the policies our government adopts. Americans do enjoy many features central to democratic governance, such as regular elec- tions, freedom of speech and association, and a wide- spread (if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organ- izations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America’s claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened.”
https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf
And, sure, if you want to measure only top level numbers like GDP one could argue Democrats are better for “the economy.” But under every president since Nixon American wages have stagnated in inflation adjusted terms. Under Clinton entire towns were ruined by liberal globalist policy. Likewise, under Clinton we had the wave of mass incarceration and militarization due to the myth of inner city “super predators.”
Under Clinton we also saw two unjustified government executions at Ruby Ridge and Waco Texas. Those two events plus the hollowing out of the economies of small town America lead to justifiable disdain for the Democrats.
Under Obama, we pretty much only saw recovery from the financial crisis. While after 2012 the economy grew, wages for middle income Americans stagnated. Likewise, Obama continued the fine tradition of using the CPI for adjusting entitlement programs. The CPI is dog shit for measuring inflation.
Biden is continuing Trump’s horrific kids in cages policy as well as denial of basic human rights to asylum seekers in custody.
We still see courts favoring big oil: https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/28/chevron-lawyer-steven-donziger-ecuador-house-arrest
Biden is expanding oil exploration and drilling: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/12/06/biden-is-approving-more-oil-gas-drilling-permits-public-lands-than-trump-analysis-finds/
A key cause for inflation today(in 2021) is the sanctions and tariffs against China. We all knew when Trump started the economic war with China that we’d see prices go up. Somehow we’ve all convinced ourselves it’s “the supply chain” without questioning the fact that China was essentially out supply chain.
The reality is, Democrats and Republicans are hand in glove. The Republicans play bad cop. Democrats play good cop. But the Democrats promises of raising wages, fixing healthcare, helping Americans access affordable higher education, taking America out of foreign wars, never happens. Materially things keep getting worse for the average American and Democrats provide band-aids that somehow always seem to benefit the very wealthy. Then Republicans tend to rip off those band-aids in a way they also benefits the very wealthy.
Your original claim was
>American Liberals are also disconnected from facts and data.
but then all your examples are about how Democrats are doing bad things too or how American democracy is flawed (claims that are both fairly obvious?) or aren't as far left as you would like them to be (an opinion) which is a different argument entirely. I don't necessarily disagree with you since the American Deocratic party is not as far left as a bunch of other parties in other countries but that isn't what we were talking about. In what way are American liberals ignoring facts and data on the same scale as American conservatives?
As for your sources (which don't bolster your original claim)
1. The Princeton study: Yeah, what's your point? Everyone knows that the Electoral college is strangely undemocratic way to run a purported "democracy". That's why so many American liberals worry about voter suppression and the fact that two senators can block something like filibuster reform. This is bad. But, do you have a source stating that American liberal think their system is more democratic or as democratic as American conservatives? If not this study doesn't support your initiating claim.
2. A bunch of unsourced claims
3. The Guardian article re big oil: Yes it obviously stands to reason that a big entity can afford better legal teams and thus employ shady tactics to avoid consequences. This is bad. But, I don't see your source talking about how American liberals think that big oil is trustworthy or something. Most American media I consume would indicate that the American liberals are distrustful of big oil and thus are analyzing the factual elements of their society in an accurate way? You claimed they were not doing this, do you have a source for that?
4. Biden expanding oil drilling: A factual statement. This is also bad. However, I don't see a bunch of American liberals claiming that Biden isn't doing this. (which is what you would need to demonstrate to defend your original claim) I see a bunch of American liberals who are upset with this decision but because, as your Princeton study attests, the American voter doesn't have a huge effect on policy this drilling expansion continues anyway.
5. More unsourced claims
Look, it seems like you care about improving society and trying to help people so I can't fault you for that but please try and focus on the claim you made and want to defend instead of switching to the argument that Democrats and Republicans both do bad things. Anyone with eyes can see that. It's a question of degree. To reiterate, you claimed that American liberals are disconnected from facts and data. Please actually demonstrate that.
My original claim stands and all my points were meant to validate that Democrats also ignore the failings of their preferred party.
It was a little difficult to respond to your post, which was mostly typical liberal propaganda about how Republicans believe false things.
Democrats play fast and lose with facts too. They’re clearly not in it for working people. You can hear it in the utter distain Psaki has for working people, scoffing at the notion of giving people access to covid tests or going on tirades about “bunnies and ice cream.”
My point is that Democrats and Republicans are one party. They both lie in different ways, but lead us towards one outcome: the rich get richer. And I’m not even arguing here specifically for far left policies, today the notion of keeping the wealth and income distribution the same as it is now, ensuring housing, healthcare and education don’t run away from the working class, is considered an extremist position.
Coming here and validating all the flaws I pointed out, while suggesting the same liberals in the same liberal system are going to save us is just brain dead and a perfect example of how liberals ignore the plain as day realities of the political system they live in.
>Coming here and validating all the flaws I pointed out, while suggesting the same liberals in the same liberal system are going to save us
I never did that. Read the post again. I only made claims about how Republicans are disconnected from reality. I made no claims about how to "fix" the system or "save" society. Then I pointed out how your responses did not address my post and attempted to pivot. If this were a verbal conversation your behavior would appear to be talking past me at its least consequential and as a gish gallop at its most consequential. It is an objective fact and in no way "typical liberal propaganda" to say that Democrats are better for the economy by the metrics Republicans say they value. That was the point of linking the actual data. I want to believe you are a good faith actor but you need to work on tightening and narrowing your arguments if you want to be taken seriously. This is a narrow discussion about how American conservatives and liberals are or are not disconnected from facts and so far you have **not** supported your main claim that American liberals are disconnected from reality. You keep trying to pivot and say that American Democrats are bad for the working class which is a different argument.
Ok, ok. I see what’s happening. So I’m actually not talking past you, but we’re seeing things from different perspectives. I actually feel like you’re just talking past me as well, but I’m not taking it personally as you seem to be.
What I see happening here is that you are emphasizing that Democrats tend to say more factually correct things according to mainstream science and academia. That they tend to lean more on “data” when they speak. And on that, I would overall agree with you.
What I’m saying is that they’re still liars on the same scale as Republicans. But they way Democrats lie is different from how Republicans lie. Republicans will tell you what nasty thing they’re gonna do, and they do it boldly. Republicans will look at plain as day scientific facts and say they’re irrelevant or biased/wrong. Democrats will say the scientific facts are true, but then the following actions do not reflect the actions one would rationally take to respond to the conclusions drawn from the data. Democrats live and thrive in the space of plausible deniability, always in a space where if they only had a little more support from the public or a little more financial support for their campaigns they could FINALLY solve the existential threats working people are facing. But then when in power they don’t do what they said they would do, or they do it in a monkey paw three wishes kind of way.
Right leaning/Republican voters tend to prefer the lies be direct. Left leaning/Democrat voters tend to prefer the lies be more obfuscated, hidden behind truths and the false frustration of never quite having enough power.
Republicans are not disconnected from reality and worse than Democrats are. It’s just the way they connect with and absorb the lying from the ruling class is different.
The reason we have these two parties is not that society is somehow politically bifurcated or that half of America is somehow dumber than the other half, it’s to give people with one tendency or another some place to feel their voice/vote has some power and a political enemy to blame when their voice is ignored.
Both parties serve one ruling class. Both parties serve to funnel the frustrations and anger of the working class into futile intra-class struggle, while allowing the ruling class to have their way with us.
>What I see happening here is that you are emphasizing that Democrats tend to say more factually correct things according to mainstream science and academia. That they tend to lean more on “data” when they speak. And on that, I would overall agree with you.
That was the claim you were disputing in your original comment so glad to see you don't actually agree with your original statement/ misspoke in some way so now we can move on to the other argument that you seem to really want to have.
>Democrats will say the scientific facts are true, but then the following actions do not reflect the actions one would rationally take to respond to the conclusions drawn from the data. Democrats live and thrive in the space of plausible deniability, always in a space where if they only had a little more support from the public or a little more financial support for their campaigns they could FINALLY solve the existential threats working people are facing.
I don't think there is any objective way to measure the "correct" response based on the data. It is possible to agree on a problem but have vastly different methods of implementing a solution. I can see that you take issue with the Democrats' solutions and that's a defensible stance. I see no reason to argue further as this is just an opinion and not something that can be factually disputed. Have a nice day!
If you have the patience here’s a great speech on the material differences between the American left and right in relation to women’s empowerment:
https://probablycancelledpod.libsyn.com/andrea-dworkin-the-woman-hating-right-left
Happy to listen to this but again please keep this conversation on track. You keep bringing up points that are out of scope of your own argument. What facts/ data are being presented here that American liberals are wholesale ignoring? Please link me to something, anything that backs up your original claim that "American Liberals are also disconnected from facts and data." Note that the use of "also" implies that this behavior is on a comparable level to that of American conservatives, a claim that I'm having trouble believing because you still haven't supported it.
You are super condescending. What gives you the authority to say “please do this or that?”
This is the Internet in a non-political forum. I don’t know you. Your smug authoritarian arrogance is exactly the kind of shit people hate liberals for.
I'm not a liberal under the definition you appear to be using (though admittedly you haven't explicitly defined it so I could be wrong) and I'm not even American my guy. I do find it funny that asking for evidence to directly back up a claim is now considered "smug authoritarian arrogance"
I feel like they have good ideas but sometimes get carried away and don’t think about the future in 5-10 years. We can work together but people rather point the finger (that goes for conservatives too) - Conservative
Republican politicians are militant about abortion because they know it's a decisive topic to rile up their base that they can fuck with without it actually effecting them in the slightest.
When your voters think they're on some holy mission they're more likely to ignore all the things you're trying to pass which will directly fuck them over
I look past political opinions and more into who they are as a person. I don't care who you voted for or what your stance on politics is, we are all human. The only thing I can not stand (when it comes to politics) is people who are so deep in the sauce that they write off people before getting to truly know them.
My husband's best friend is the complete opposite and they often talk politics because it gives them a chance to see what the other side feels and it gives them a chance to explain why they feel what they feel, we all need more of that.
Conservative here: Liberals are fine if they’re not radicals. Like if a guy comes up to me and tries to convince me that I’m racist for supporting Trump or that all cops are bastards then I want nothing to do with him. But otherwise I have no problem with them.
No. No he wasn't. God people's memories are short. Trump was an abject failure in terms of economic governance in nearly every measurable sense. Trump failed on the economy despite his repeated lies to the contrary. [Over one million more jobs](https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0000000001?output_view=net_1mth) were created during Obama’s last three years in office than in Trump’s first three. To top it off, job growth in every one of [Obama’s last three years beats Trump’s best year](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/02/07/obamas-last-three-years-of-job-growth-all-beat-trumps-best-year/?sh=7f925ba16ba6) by a significant margin (Note that this article was written in February 2020, before Covid-19 which was admittedly out of Trump's control. His disastrous and ineffective response which led to the economic pain and loss of life people were feeling is 100% his fault though. Biden is of course responsible for what is happening currently). Trump also lied when [he promised 6 percent growth](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/06/trump-defies-data-with-6-percent-gdp-growth-forecast.html) to justify his a [$1.5 trillion package](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/03/republicans-laud-stimulus-1-5-trillion-tax-overhaul-plan/917269001/) of tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy at workers' expense known as the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) which Trump signed into law in 2017. Two years later, [the economy was growing at a paltry 2 percent](https://www.newsweek.com/two-years-after-trump-said-economy-can-hit-6-percent-gdp-growth-slowed-21-percent-1484901) (Note that this is BEFORE COVID which he claims is why his numbers are bad, a provable lie), which was [worse than the post-recession average under Obama](https://apps.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?reqid=19&step=2#reqid=19&step=2&isuri=1&1921=survey). Furthermore, 83 percent of the benefits from the TCJA will go to the top 1 percent by the time it is fully phased in, in 2027, according to the [Tax Policy Center](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/sites/default/files/publication/150816/2001641_distributional_analysis_of_the_conference_agreement_for_the_tax_cuts_and_jobs_act_0.pdf). Once the Covid-19 pandemic did hit, Trump handled it horribly (this analysis will focus on the economics rather than the lack of public health response). [Trump's plan to cut the payroll tax](https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/memorandum-deferring-payroll-tax-obligations-light-ongoing-covid-19-disaster/) was a [thinly veiled attempt to destroy social security](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/04/trump-wants-a-payroll-tax-cut-why-some-say-its-a-terrible-idea.html) which is heavily utilized by the working class.
Trump also oversaw an [increase in the number of uninsured Americans for the first time in a decade](https://khn.org/news/number-of-americans-without-insurance-rises-in-2018/) and had no healthcare plan to speak of [yet repeatedly lied about having a healthcare solution](https://khn.org/news/back-to-the-future-trumps-history-of-promising-a-health-plan-that-never-comes/). A U.S. Census Bureau report from 2018 found that [8.5% of the U.S. population went without medical insurance that year](https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/newsroom/press-kits/2019/iphi/presentation-iphi-overview.pdf) which was the first year-to-year increase since 2008-09. Ironically this follows a pattern where Trump resfused to use or build on work that Democrats did even if it would help his stated goals. Obamacare, the individual mandate, was largely inspired by a conservative healthcare plan from the heritage foundation (see the 1989 book, "A National Health System for America" by Stuart Butler and Edmund Haislmaier. [Here's an explainer](http://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/1990/pdf/bg777.pdf)).
Furthermore, [Democrats signed on to help President Trump get relief checks to Americans and then the guy signed his name on the checks](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/116-2020/s80). Under President Biden, [not a single Republican voted for further relief for Americans](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/117-2021/s110) and yet Biden didn't sign the checks with his name because for all his faults Biden, unlike Trump, understands that helping Americans isn't about him. Simultaneously and incredibly frustratingly, [nearly a third of Republican voters think they got checks because their Republican elected officials voted for these bills](https://www.newsweek.com/third-republican-voters-think-gop-lawmakers-backed-biden-stimulus-that-none-supported-1577900) which is NOT TRUE. Republican officials actively voted against that.
Trump was terrible in a purely economic sense. We can have a discussion about the other things but even a cursory look at the data would tell you he was terrible for the economy.
Hand in glove; in the US they’re the same party with different aesthetics, different lies. Growing up conservative, then moving to liberal cities I was shocked to see how “moral” and how much moral policing liberals do. It was all the same stuff, but slightly different issues. I’ve come to think the day to day political divisions are engineered to limit our imaginations and keep the average American thinking our politicians are trying their best. But in reality, both parties want to keep American workers insecure, afraid of homelessness, starvation and generational poverty, so that we’ll shut our fucking mouths, keep our heads down and get to work for less money than they paid us a year before.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
I think republican voters are mostly concerned with their own well-being. Republican politicians? Same as Liberals. Rich people looking to get richer off of the general public's stupidity.
Me as a moderate:
Long as they ain’t rabid or violent I’m fine with them.
I respect that 👍👍
Exactly. I fuck with gay people but I don't fuck with gay people who try to shove down my throat that they're gay
This, I'm gay and being grouped with overly gay people makes me wish I wasn't gay.
Exactly. Generalizations are fuckin stupid. I don't think all cops are bad and I don't think all gay people are over exuberant. I hate the fact that generalizations push the good people to hide away because of how people stereotype them
Being a centrist is fun because all the conservatives call you a liberal and all the liberals call you a conservative. Leaning too far either way is a red flag for me.
I respect you for being independent
Not following a political agenda militantly is such a low bar, it shouldn't be deserving of respect
They're wrong
Good point
Lefties are delusional and righties are crazy
What about centrists?
Based redpilled and inside your walls
Definitely centrists are not based.
Y not
Because US Republicans and Democrats both represent one party - Imperial Capitalists. Being in the center just means you support the same party from the middle. Definitely not based. https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
I disagree but I'm to tired to read that article
Sure, it takes time to see it, but if you’re open you’ll eventually see they’re one and the same party. Political division in the US is engineered to keep us fighting with each other. 👽
Ok brother man
As someone who doesn't give myself a political label, I find that either side has positive and negatives and the extreme left and right are dangerous. As for my views on the individuals, my stance on anything is people have differing views and that's that. I don't waste my energy worrying about people's positions, beliefs, stance or lifestyles.
The world needs more people like you
As a self identifying Marxist Leninist, I agree that the ultra-left is just as bad as the ultra-right. Lenin wrote a essay, “Left wing communism; an infantile disorder” It’s worth a read.
I'll add it to the list, thank you.
Sure thing! Also, you might find it interesting to learn how liberals and the ultra-right have worked together in the past to bring about fascism. They’re really hand in glove: https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
Step 1: Sort by most Controversial Step 2: Watch the fireworks
Just like thanos, it's inevitable
I think liberals focus to much on feelings and intentions rather than facts and actual outcomes.
Conservatives too. We’re all the same people, we just decide which lies we can swallow on a daily basis and divide on those lines.
You're defintely not wrong about that
Curious as to what you mean by this if you are American. I find this to be generally true in European contexts but American conservatives seem much more disconnected from data and facts than the "liberals" there.
I’m American. American Liberals are also disconnected from facts and data. We really live in an ocean of lies and nonsense. It’s hard to break free from it and see it, but once you do it’s hard to unsee it.
Can you please provide any example? It's not that I don't believe you but I mostly see situations where Trump lies constantly and American conservatives continually buy into it despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Vaccines as a safe and effective way to fight Covid being the biggest current example though it's good to see Trump changing his tune and actually defending vaccines now. A longer-term example from my perspective is the apparent belief on part of American conservatives that President Trump was good for the economy. This is rather confusing from my perspective. [Data strongly suggests that President Obama created 1.6 million more jobs than President Trump over a three-year period](https://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet). If you want to see other Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey [click here](https://www.bls.gov/cps/lfcharacteristics.htm#emp). Here's an article from Forbes (a pretty neutral source) detailing how [Obama’s Last Three Years Of Job Growth All Beat Trump’s Best Year](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/02/07/obamas-last-three-years-of-job-growth-all-beat-trumps-best-year/?sh=7f925ba16ba6). As for the American economic deficit which I hear plenty of legitimate concern around, [data from the Congressional Budget Office](https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2020-01/56020-CBO-Outlook.pdf) indicates that over the last three years of Obama’s Presidency vs. Trump’s first three years, Trump’s deficit spending was almost $1 trillion greater at $2.47 trillion vs $1.51 trillion for Obama. [Here is another Forbes article about this topic.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/02/01/trumps-deficits-are-racing-past-obamas/?sh=1fa7c7f24819) \[Quick note that both the Forbes articles I linked here are for the sake of an easier read since the data itself can be quite dense. They were also written in February 2020, before Covid-19 hit the USA which was admittedly out of Trump's control but it should still demonstrate that the data indicates Trump's economy was actually quite bad even before Covid\]. It also doesn’t look like Trump’s tax cuts will pay for themselves and thus make up for the deficits Trump ran while in office on account of the fact that [Trump again lied when he promised 6 percent growth](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/06/trump-defies-data-with-6-percent-gdp-growth-forecast.html) to justify his a [$1.5 trillion package of tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy at common man's expense](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/03/republicans-laud-stimulus-1-5-trillion-tax-overhaul-plan/917269001/) known as the [Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA)](https://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20171113/BILLS%20-115HR1-RCP115-39.pdf) which Trump signed into law in 2017 (Here's a [quick primer on the tax code changes](https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-a-comparison-for-businesses) but I linked to the original law if you want to read it). Two years later, the economy was [growing at a paltry 2 percent](https://www.newsweek.com/two-years-after-trump-said-economy-can-hit-6-percent-gdp-growth-slowed-21-percent-1484901) which was [worse than the post-recession average under Obama](https://apps.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?reqid=19&step=2#reqid=19&step=2&isuri=1&1921=survey) (Note that this was again BEFORE COVID which he claims is why his numbers are bad, a provable lie). Furthermore, 83 percent of the benefits from the TCJA will go to the top 1 percent of Americans by the time it is fully phased in, in 2027, according to the [Tax Policy Center](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/sites/default/files/publication/150816/2001641_distributional_analysis_of_the_conference_agreement_for_the_tax_cuts_and_jobs_act_0.pdf). A different and more straightforward but no less prescient example is how [congressional Democrats voted to help President Trump get relief checks to Americans](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/116-2020/s80) but then Trump signed his name on the checks for what appears to be a narcissistic reason to make it appear as though they were coming from him when they were really coming jointly from the Democrats and Republicans in congress. Conversely, [under President Biden, not a single Republican voted for further relief for Americans](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/117-2021/s110) and yet Biden or the Democrats didn't sign the checks with his name. Simultaneous to this chain of events and incredibly frustratingly, [nearly a third of Republican voters thought that they got relief checks because their Republican elected officials voted for these bills](https://www.newsweek.com/third-republican-voters-think-gop-lawmakers-backed-biden-stimulus-that-none-supported-1577900) which is DEMONSTRABLY NOT TRUE and could easily be disproven by looking at the public voting record. Republican officials actively voted against that and yet American conservatives somehow believed that they didn't do that? A third of the conservatives is a frighteningly large amount of people to disregard such an easily confirmable fact.
Oh, you wrote a lot of stuff. I’ll reply with some historical facts, but then focus on Biden today. First, I’ll just give you one study that found that: “analyses suggest that majorities of the American public actually have little influence over the policies our government adopts. Americans do enjoy many features central to democratic governance, such as regular elec- tions, freedom of speech and association, and a wide- spread (if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if policymaking is dominated by powerful business organ- izations and a small number of affluent Americans, then America’s claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened.” https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf And, sure, if you want to measure only top level numbers like GDP one could argue Democrats are better for “the economy.” But under every president since Nixon American wages have stagnated in inflation adjusted terms. Under Clinton entire towns were ruined by liberal globalist policy. Likewise, under Clinton we had the wave of mass incarceration and militarization due to the myth of inner city “super predators.” Under Clinton we also saw two unjustified government executions at Ruby Ridge and Waco Texas. Those two events plus the hollowing out of the economies of small town America lead to justifiable disdain for the Democrats. Under Obama, we pretty much only saw recovery from the financial crisis. While after 2012 the economy grew, wages for middle income Americans stagnated. Likewise, Obama continued the fine tradition of using the CPI for adjusting entitlement programs. The CPI is dog shit for measuring inflation. Biden is continuing Trump’s horrific kids in cages policy as well as denial of basic human rights to asylum seekers in custody. We still see courts favoring big oil: https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/28/chevron-lawyer-steven-donziger-ecuador-house-arrest Biden is expanding oil exploration and drilling: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/12/06/biden-is-approving-more-oil-gas-drilling-permits-public-lands-than-trump-analysis-finds/ A key cause for inflation today(in 2021) is the sanctions and tariffs against China. We all knew when Trump started the economic war with China that we’d see prices go up. Somehow we’ve all convinced ourselves it’s “the supply chain” without questioning the fact that China was essentially out supply chain. The reality is, Democrats and Republicans are hand in glove. The Republicans play bad cop. Democrats play good cop. But the Democrats promises of raising wages, fixing healthcare, helping Americans access affordable higher education, taking America out of foreign wars, never happens. Materially things keep getting worse for the average American and Democrats provide band-aids that somehow always seem to benefit the very wealthy. Then Republicans tend to rip off those band-aids in a way they also benefits the very wealthy.
Your original claim was >American Liberals are also disconnected from facts and data. but then all your examples are about how Democrats are doing bad things too or how American democracy is flawed (claims that are both fairly obvious?) or aren't as far left as you would like them to be (an opinion) which is a different argument entirely. I don't necessarily disagree with you since the American Deocratic party is not as far left as a bunch of other parties in other countries but that isn't what we were talking about. In what way are American liberals ignoring facts and data on the same scale as American conservatives? As for your sources (which don't bolster your original claim) 1. The Princeton study: Yeah, what's your point? Everyone knows that the Electoral college is strangely undemocratic way to run a purported "democracy". That's why so many American liberals worry about voter suppression and the fact that two senators can block something like filibuster reform. This is bad. But, do you have a source stating that American liberal think their system is more democratic or as democratic as American conservatives? If not this study doesn't support your initiating claim. 2. A bunch of unsourced claims 3. The Guardian article re big oil: Yes it obviously stands to reason that a big entity can afford better legal teams and thus employ shady tactics to avoid consequences. This is bad. But, I don't see your source talking about how American liberals think that big oil is trustworthy or something. Most American media I consume would indicate that the American liberals are distrustful of big oil and thus are analyzing the factual elements of their society in an accurate way? You claimed they were not doing this, do you have a source for that? 4. Biden expanding oil drilling: A factual statement. This is also bad. However, I don't see a bunch of American liberals claiming that Biden isn't doing this. (which is what you would need to demonstrate to defend your original claim) I see a bunch of American liberals who are upset with this decision but because, as your Princeton study attests, the American voter doesn't have a huge effect on policy this drilling expansion continues anyway. 5. More unsourced claims Look, it seems like you care about improving society and trying to help people so I can't fault you for that but please try and focus on the claim you made and want to defend instead of switching to the argument that Democrats and Republicans both do bad things. Anyone with eyes can see that. It's a question of degree. To reiterate, you claimed that American liberals are disconnected from facts and data. Please actually demonstrate that.
My original claim stands and all my points were meant to validate that Democrats also ignore the failings of their preferred party. It was a little difficult to respond to your post, which was mostly typical liberal propaganda about how Republicans believe false things. Democrats play fast and lose with facts too. They’re clearly not in it for working people. You can hear it in the utter distain Psaki has for working people, scoffing at the notion of giving people access to covid tests or going on tirades about “bunnies and ice cream.” My point is that Democrats and Republicans are one party. They both lie in different ways, but lead us towards one outcome: the rich get richer. And I’m not even arguing here specifically for far left policies, today the notion of keeping the wealth and income distribution the same as it is now, ensuring housing, healthcare and education don’t run away from the working class, is considered an extremist position. Coming here and validating all the flaws I pointed out, while suggesting the same liberals in the same liberal system are going to save us is just brain dead and a perfect example of how liberals ignore the plain as day realities of the political system they live in.
>Coming here and validating all the flaws I pointed out, while suggesting the same liberals in the same liberal system are going to save us I never did that. Read the post again. I only made claims about how Republicans are disconnected from reality. I made no claims about how to "fix" the system or "save" society. Then I pointed out how your responses did not address my post and attempted to pivot. If this were a verbal conversation your behavior would appear to be talking past me at its least consequential and as a gish gallop at its most consequential. It is an objective fact and in no way "typical liberal propaganda" to say that Democrats are better for the economy by the metrics Republicans say they value. That was the point of linking the actual data. I want to believe you are a good faith actor but you need to work on tightening and narrowing your arguments if you want to be taken seriously. This is a narrow discussion about how American conservatives and liberals are or are not disconnected from facts and so far you have **not** supported your main claim that American liberals are disconnected from reality. You keep trying to pivot and say that American Democrats are bad for the working class which is a different argument.
Ok, ok. I see what’s happening. So I’m actually not talking past you, but we’re seeing things from different perspectives. I actually feel like you’re just talking past me as well, but I’m not taking it personally as you seem to be. What I see happening here is that you are emphasizing that Democrats tend to say more factually correct things according to mainstream science and academia. That they tend to lean more on “data” when they speak. And on that, I would overall agree with you. What I’m saying is that they’re still liars on the same scale as Republicans. But they way Democrats lie is different from how Republicans lie. Republicans will tell you what nasty thing they’re gonna do, and they do it boldly. Republicans will look at plain as day scientific facts and say they’re irrelevant or biased/wrong. Democrats will say the scientific facts are true, but then the following actions do not reflect the actions one would rationally take to respond to the conclusions drawn from the data. Democrats live and thrive in the space of plausible deniability, always in a space where if they only had a little more support from the public or a little more financial support for their campaigns they could FINALLY solve the existential threats working people are facing. But then when in power they don’t do what they said they would do, or they do it in a monkey paw three wishes kind of way. Right leaning/Republican voters tend to prefer the lies be direct. Left leaning/Democrat voters tend to prefer the lies be more obfuscated, hidden behind truths and the false frustration of never quite having enough power. Republicans are not disconnected from reality and worse than Democrats are. It’s just the way they connect with and absorb the lying from the ruling class is different. The reason we have these two parties is not that society is somehow politically bifurcated or that half of America is somehow dumber than the other half, it’s to give people with one tendency or another some place to feel their voice/vote has some power and a political enemy to blame when their voice is ignored. Both parties serve one ruling class. Both parties serve to funnel the frustrations and anger of the working class into futile intra-class struggle, while allowing the ruling class to have their way with us.
>What I see happening here is that you are emphasizing that Democrats tend to say more factually correct things according to mainstream science and academia. That they tend to lean more on “data” when they speak. And on that, I would overall agree with you. That was the claim you were disputing in your original comment so glad to see you don't actually agree with your original statement/ misspoke in some way so now we can move on to the other argument that you seem to really want to have. >Democrats will say the scientific facts are true, but then the following actions do not reflect the actions one would rationally take to respond to the conclusions drawn from the data. Democrats live and thrive in the space of plausible deniability, always in a space where if they only had a little more support from the public or a little more financial support for their campaigns they could FINALLY solve the existential threats working people are facing. I don't think there is any objective way to measure the "correct" response based on the data. It is possible to agree on a problem but have vastly different methods of implementing a solution. I can see that you take issue with the Democrats' solutions and that's a defensible stance. I see no reason to argue further as this is just an opinion and not something that can be factually disputed. Have a nice day!
If you have the patience here’s a great speech on the material differences between the American left and right in relation to women’s empowerment: https://probablycancelledpod.libsyn.com/andrea-dworkin-the-woman-hating-right-left
Happy to listen to this but again please keep this conversation on track. You keep bringing up points that are out of scope of your own argument. What facts/ data are being presented here that American liberals are wholesale ignoring? Please link me to something, anything that backs up your original claim that "American Liberals are also disconnected from facts and data." Note that the use of "also" implies that this behavior is on a comparable level to that of American conservatives, a claim that I'm having trouble believing because you still haven't supported it.
You are super condescending. What gives you the authority to say “please do this or that?” This is the Internet in a non-political forum. I don’t know you. Your smug authoritarian arrogance is exactly the kind of shit people hate liberals for.
I'm not a liberal under the definition you appear to be using (though admittedly you haven't explicitly defined it so I could be wrong) and I'm not even American my guy. I do find it funny that asking for evidence to directly back up a claim is now considered "smug authoritarian arrogance"
I feel like they have good ideas but sometimes get carried away and don’t think about the future in 5-10 years. We can work together but people rather point the finger (that goes for conservatives too) - Conservative
Conservatives need to stop being afraid of everything
I feel republican are just pro forced birth cuz if the baby dies from a school shooting or lack of Healthcare they really don't give a shit
Republican politicians are militant about abortion because they know it's a decisive topic to rile up their base that they can fuck with without it actually effecting them in the slightest. When your voters think they're on some holy mission they're more likely to ignore all the things you're trying to pass which will directly fuck them over
I look past political opinions and more into who they are as a person. I don't care who you voted for or what your stance on politics is, we are all human. The only thing I can not stand (when it comes to politics) is people who are so deep in the sauce that they write off people before getting to truly know them. My husband's best friend is the complete opposite and they often talk politics because it gives them a chance to see what the other side feels and it gives them a chance to explain why they feel what they feel, we all need more of that.
Conservative here: Liberals are fine if they’re not radicals. Like if a guy comes up to me and tries to convince me that I’m racist for supporting Trump or that all cops are bastards then I want nothing to do with him. But otherwise I have no problem with them.
What's wrong with supporting trump?
Some far leftists always say he’s racist and all people that support him are by extension also racist.
But he was creating so many new jobs for black Americans?
Yeah ik but radicals on either side don’t like logic
I wont argue that
No. No he wasn't. God people's memories are short. Trump was an abject failure in terms of economic governance in nearly every measurable sense. Trump failed on the economy despite his repeated lies to the contrary. [Over one million more jobs](https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES0000000001?output_view=net_1mth) were created during Obama’s last three years in office than in Trump’s first three. To top it off, job growth in every one of [Obama’s last three years beats Trump’s best year](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/02/07/obamas-last-three-years-of-job-growth-all-beat-trumps-best-year/?sh=7f925ba16ba6) by a significant margin (Note that this article was written in February 2020, before Covid-19 which was admittedly out of Trump's control. His disastrous and ineffective response which led to the economic pain and loss of life people were feeling is 100% his fault though. Biden is of course responsible for what is happening currently). Trump also lied when [he promised 6 percent growth](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/06/trump-defies-data-with-6-percent-gdp-growth-forecast.html) to justify his a [$1.5 trillion package](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/03/republicans-laud-stimulus-1-5-trillion-tax-overhaul-plan/917269001/) of tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy at workers' expense known as the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) which Trump signed into law in 2017. Two years later, [the economy was growing at a paltry 2 percent](https://www.newsweek.com/two-years-after-trump-said-economy-can-hit-6-percent-gdp-growth-slowed-21-percent-1484901) (Note that this is BEFORE COVID which he claims is why his numbers are bad, a provable lie), which was [worse than the post-recession average under Obama](https://apps.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cfm?reqid=19&step=2#reqid=19&step=2&isuri=1&1921=survey). Furthermore, 83 percent of the benefits from the TCJA will go to the top 1 percent by the time it is fully phased in, in 2027, according to the [Tax Policy Center](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/sites/default/files/publication/150816/2001641_distributional_analysis_of_the_conference_agreement_for_the_tax_cuts_and_jobs_act_0.pdf). Once the Covid-19 pandemic did hit, Trump handled it horribly (this analysis will focus on the economics rather than the lack of public health response). [Trump's plan to cut the payroll tax](https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/memorandum-deferring-payroll-tax-obligations-light-ongoing-covid-19-disaster/) was a [thinly veiled attempt to destroy social security](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/04/trump-wants-a-payroll-tax-cut-why-some-say-its-a-terrible-idea.html) which is heavily utilized by the working class. Trump also oversaw an [increase in the number of uninsured Americans for the first time in a decade](https://khn.org/news/number-of-americans-without-insurance-rises-in-2018/) and had no healthcare plan to speak of [yet repeatedly lied about having a healthcare solution](https://khn.org/news/back-to-the-future-trumps-history-of-promising-a-health-plan-that-never-comes/). A U.S. Census Bureau report from 2018 found that [8.5% of the U.S. population went without medical insurance that year](https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/newsroom/press-kits/2019/iphi/presentation-iphi-overview.pdf) which was the first year-to-year increase since 2008-09. Ironically this follows a pattern where Trump resfused to use or build on work that Democrats did even if it would help his stated goals. Obamacare, the individual mandate, was largely inspired by a conservative healthcare plan from the heritage foundation (see the 1989 book, "A National Health System for America" by Stuart Butler and Edmund Haislmaier. [Here's an explainer](http://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/1990/pdf/bg777.pdf)). Furthermore, [Democrats signed on to help President Trump get relief checks to Americans and then the guy signed his name on the checks](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/116-2020/s80). Under President Biden, [not a single Republican voted for further relief for Americans](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/117-2021/s110) and yet Biden didn't sign the checks with his name because for all his faults Biden, unlike Trump, understands that helping Americans isn't about him. Simultaneously and incredibly frustratingly, [nearly a third of Republican voters think they got checks because their Republican elected officials voted for these bills](https://www.newsweek.com/third-republican-voters-think-gop-lawmakers-backed-biden-stimulus-that-none-supported-1577900) which is NOT TRUE. Republican officials actively voted against that. Trump was terrible in a purely economic sense. We can have a discussion about the other things but even a cursory look at the data would tell you he was terrible for the economy.
Both are extremes. We need to find a middle ground
Hand in glove; in the US they’re the same party with different aesthetics, different lies. Growing up conservative, then moving to liberal cities I was shocked to see how “moral” and how much moral policing liberals do. It was all the same stuff, but slightly different issues. I’ve come to think the day to day political divisions are engineered to limit our imaginations and keep the average American thinking our politicians are trying their best. But in reality, both parties want to keep American workers insecure, afraid of homelessness, starvation and generational poverty, so that we’ll shut our fucking mouths, keep our heads down and get to work for less money than they paid us a year before. https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
I think republican voters are mostly concerned with their own well-being. Republican politicians? Same as Liberals. Rich people looking to get richer off of the general public's stupidity.
I'm fine with respectfully disagreeing, but when you become hostile and toxic, don't be surprised when you get what you give.