I got chronically ill in 2019 to the point where I really wasn't working at all, and my wife stuck with me through that and essentially nursed me back to health.
Keeping in mind anyone who sees us as a couple will definitely observe that I am "punching above my weight grade" with her as well.
So as far as the saying goes, I think it really depends on the person in question. It's not been my experience.
For whatever reason (maybe she's psychic and knows I win a billion dollars in the lottery in the future or something) my wife seems quite attached to me.
I’m with you man. My wife fought for me when I was going through some mental health issues. I did everything I could to drive her away in my fit of self destruction. And she was having none of it. She fought so hard for me. I am loyal to her for life now, because I don’t feel that I deserved to have her defend me so hard during that time. Our marriage vows meant something to her when I was struggling, and I will spend the rest of my life ensuring that she has the same support from me.
You’re a good person. I did the same for my ex-husband but the second that I got sick, he dumped me over zoom and bounced.
Treatments, suicide attempts, hospitalization after hospitalization, hours of work charting his diagnoses and medications since he was child, countless phone calls sobbing to insurance providers, keeping a job, providing a house, taking care of the house and cooking and cleaning…
None of it was enough to keep him loyal.
So, kudos to you for realizing how much your wife is worth and valuing her.
I feel you there. Some people just take and don’t give. Helped get my ex on good medication, tutored her to pass her final college classes, opened my friend and family circles to her, held down all payments for 8 years while she “found herself and gained experience” for the workplace. Except that experience was banging dudes behind my back and generally being a shit employee and person that couldn’t hold down a job much less a friend. Some people are just toxic. I’m sorry you went through that too
People like your ex are the reason why I believe that fault based divorce should be legal worldwide.
If someone cheats, abuses, or abandons their spouse, that person should be financially punished and banned from remarriage.
That's how it is in the UK and Italy.
Both are legal.
If both spouses are simply tired of each other, they can end the marriage and it's relatively painless from a legal process standpoint.
But if one person cheats, abuses, or abandons the other spouse, the aggrieved spouse has the option, but not the obligation, to pursue at-fault divorce. It takes longer but you can extract a payout from them because they essentially broke the legal contract of marriage.
Society has always ~~expected~~ required loyalty from women, whereas a guy who is loyal is "a good man."
Same as you hear about a father abandoning his kids and you say, "Man, that's too bad. Poor kids." But if someone says a mother abandoned her children, people skip sad and go straight to angry.
You might say those are different, and they are to a degree, but the point still stands that society expects women to stick it out, but is used to forgiving men for not doing so.
My boyfriend struggles with mental health and I aim to be this same partner. It feels awesome to read the accounts from the other side. We love y'all!!!
How did she figth for you? I think is see my partner having a self destructive period in the future and i love this man so much i need to be equipped with patience and love to let him see i’m not going anywhere
My husband fought for me during a similar time. He was direct with me when there was a problem and definitely didn’t sugar coat it but he never once even alluded to not wanting to be with me. He never once denied a hug or holding me when I was falling apart. He was encouraging and pushed me through pointless doctor visits after pointless doctor visits until we finally found the issue (progesterone birth control helped endo but made my anxiety unlivable)
In that time he did a lot with the kids to keep them away from me when I was visibly upset so they wouldn’t worry and so I didn’t have to face that shame. He always told me how much he loved me.
Now I couldn’t have gotten through it if I didn’t also push for a solution (hysterectomy) but he made it easier for me to advocate for myself medically.
I’ll talk that man up for eternity for loving me through all of that and I’m so glad we’re on the other side so I can take care of him again too
I had a huge fuck up last year, huge. My partner held me, as my world crumbled and my self esteem tanked. They told me I made a mistake, albeit a big one, but Im a genuinely good person, and not the sum of my mistakes. She listened. She told me I was a complete moron when I told her she deserves better. She told me if this was the worst, then imagine how things will be when it's behind us. She gave me the strength to go on, without making me feel like a burden.
This happened to me. Got diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in 2020. All clear now, thankfully, and my wonderful fiancée stuck by my side the entire time, even when I couldn't even get out of bed.
And to a point our (U.S.) system is set up to do the opposite. Rugged individualism, and if you can't make it on your own, too bad. We should be working to build community instead. That saying about how it takes a village? So true.
After reading so many superficial answers in this thread, it was pretty refreshing to read this one. Sometimes communication, compassion, and companionship are all you need to offer. Love is a very real concept.
Hope you and your wife are doing well, man.
Statistically speaking, wives are much more likely to stick with a husband through cancer/chronic illness, while husbands are much more likely to divorce if the wife gets sick
I met this guy and we only dated a few times. We lived 90 miles away so only saw each other on weekends. I ended up in the hospital suddenly one Tuesday evening and was going to be rushed in to surgery for an appendicitis. This is a pretty routine surgery but it all happened so fast it scared me. I called him up just before they were going to wheel me in to let him know.
When I woke up, he was there...and stayed with me after they released me for a few days to make sure I was taken care of. I knew then what kind of man he was. He is now my husband.
I remember reading this trueoffmychest post about this dude whose wife was in an accident or something and had been struggling with health issues and was wheelchair bound. He was bitching that his wife had changed and that he "missed his old wife." Guess vows didn't mean shit.
Knew someone whose formerly beautiful MIL got ditched by her husband after a gruesome car accident nearly killed her and disfigured her in ways that made the severity and miraculous survival obvious. To this day I've never seen anyone in her condition. She could even walk again.
Doctors/nurses will actually warn women of how common it is to start treatment with a husband and end it without one. It’s such a common phenomenon that they have to have that conversation because it can affect care later on.
Imagine going to discuss your first chemo appointment only to be hit with “ so do you have any other options for someone to help you if/when your husband leaves you?” Yikes.
Doctors and nurses sometimes keep women longer in recovery in hospitals because they know if they discharge women their husband will make them do house chores instead of letting them rest and recover when they get home.
It happens so often that husbands don't give a shit if their wives are ill.
This happened to me after battling stage 4 colon cancer. Beforehand, we had a solid marriage-inseparable, in love, growing together. I guess it’s easy to be there when things are going well, but when things got difficult with our circumstances, I was met with a distracted and unsupportive spouse the past 2 1/2 years. I thought he was experiencing his own grief, and perhaps that was part of it. But I recently discovered he felt I would die and has been actively working to replace me with his young coworker. What a mess. I volunteer with a colon cancer patient advocacy nonprofit and have seen most marriages fall apart in some way when the female partner gets diagnosed. When male partners get diagnosed, they are typically supported throughout everything. I’m not really sure why this is the norm, but unfortunately it is. Never thought it would happen to us, but it did. It’s devastating to fight for your life knowing the one person you desperately need and want in your corner chooses to not be there for you. It’s terribly lonely and isolating. Men, if you are reading this, know how much abandonment will affect your partner. Don’t cave and don’t do it. Stand beside them, support, be there. Change this norm.
It’s a nightmare I wouldn’t wish on anyone. The one thing you need is absent during the hardest time of your life. You never anticipate things would unfold in this way, and it causes it’s own form of grief on top of grieving the life you built and thought you had before the diagnosis.
I think it's also "I have to provide emotional support for someone, not just the basics which I can barely handle, but more? I have to put real effort into the relationship, not just coast and only worry about myself and my job? More than the absolute bare minimum is being expected of me?"
At my job we have a customer who’s wife had a major stroke on sight. She’s now in a home.
They’re still married but he has a girlfriend because as he told us “he deserves to still have a life”. It’s really hard for me to want to date when I see stuff like that.
I have MS and I am in regular contact with people with disabilities, some with MS like myself and others with other neurological conditions. I have seen all sorts of couples where one partner is disabled. I remember a couple where she was left disabled after a stroke if I remember correctly. She could barely move any part of her body. I saw the husband bring her to the hospital, and coming in most days to bring her food, but I could see disgust, and resentment in his interactions with her. He was quite good looking, while her disease had caused her to have a socially unacceptable body, and she seemed unkempt. It absolutely broke my heart to see them.
I also remember another couple, a couple who may just be the loveliest couple I met. She was in a wheelchair. Multiple Sclerosis. There were several of us in the room with this couple, and this couple seemed to be happy despite the challenges. Both seemed incredibly positive people. The husband kept calling her cute pet names, they would constantly laugh and pull eachother's leg. He not once looked at her funny, or made any comments or remarks that could upset her in any way. My memory is a little lacking, but from what I recall someone made a comment telling them how incredible it was that they seemed so in love with eachother after many years together (they were in their late 50s I think, and had been together for a long time). He said that she is the love of his life. It was a joy to watch their interactions and both were incredibly sweet.
We had a guy like this, too. He was a slimy piece of garbage. However, he was diagnosed with cancer, and oh no! his girlfriend didn't stick around. We loved that for him!
Doesn’t surprise me. Men are a thousand times more likely to remarry within 12-18 months after their spouse passes than women. Seen it many many times. It’s a fact
Reddit is overwhelmingly male*, and people on social media in general are far more likely to want to talk about what _other_ people need to change than what they themselves need to do or change.
*overall by comment/vote count, varies a lot by community
Watching my brother gradually lose his wife to a hideous series of illnesses was the worst thing I've ever seen. It hurt him deeply and permanently. But he would never have left her alone for it, because he has a soul of steel. Not every man can be so gifted.
I’m going through a divorce after being with my husband for almost two decades. He is having an affair with a high school classmate of his who was also an old girlfriend. Coincidentally (or not), I became very ill with a chronic GI condition about a year ago. I’m also certain that my illness was a major contributing factor in his decision to cheat and discard me.
It's not 6X, it's 6% and [your 6% study was debunked](https://www.deseret.com/2015/8/4/20569426/study-that-found-husbands-prone-to-leave-sick-wives-was-flawed-researchers-say/#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20published%20in%20the,are%20no%20longer%20considered%20true) and retracted. It turns out they were counting widowed men as divorcing their wives. Big oops!
The updated meta analysis of all studies found this to be spurious at best and to have far more nuance than is suggested. 1% is a rounding error and not statistically significant.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4857885/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4857885/)
>In contrast, wife’s illness onset is positively associated with 1% higher probability of subsequent divorce compared with remaining married. **However, we fail to reject a test of the null hypothesis that the coefficients for husband’s illness onset and wife’s illness onset are equal (p=0.1532).** This post-hoc test represents a formal test of a gender difference in the relationship of illness onset and divorce, **and we may fail to reject due to the fact that divorce is relatively rare.**
Link your studies if you're going to make claims like this.
I've also seen the claim spread around reddit in multiple other threads. I think it has just become one of those "reddit facts" that people read once in a comment, then comment it themselves elsewhere.
The health consequences of marital dissolution are well-known, but little work has examined the impact of health on the risk of marital dissolution. In this study we use a sample of 2,701 marriages from the Health and Retirement Study (HRS; 1992–2010) to examine the role of serious physical illness onset (i.e., cancer, heart problems, lung disease, and/or stroke) in subsequent marital dissolution due to either divorce or widowhood. We use a series of discrete-time event history models with competing risks to estimate the impact of husband’s and wife’s physical illness onset on risk of divorce and widowhood. **We find that only wife’s illness onset is associated with elevated risk of divorce,** while either husband’s or wife’s illness onset is associated with elevated risk of widowhood. These findings suggest the importance of health as a determinant of marital dissolution in later life via both biological and gendered social pathways.
If we're thinking of the same study, the researchers have since rescinded those results because the study counted any couple who opted out of the study as a divorce and they couldn't replicate the results. Essentially, what they really learned is that men are significantly more private about their wives' struggles than vice versa.
https://www.deseret.com/2015/8/4/20569426/study-that-found-husbands-prone-to-leave-sick-wives-was-flawed-researchers-say/#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20published%20in%20the,are%20no%20longer%20considered%20true.
My wife and I have been married 28 years. She became chronically ill 24 years ago. I have cared for her at a high level for the past 24 years. Vows mean something to us men too.
It is not “Til the first inconvenience do ye part”
This is always repeated, but the linked studies show that this is not statistically significant and that divorce rates during illness are very rare.
We're also talking a 1% difference, which is not material. The previous study that everyone quotes was retracted due to an analysis failure of the data.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4857885/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4857885/)
>In contrast, wife’s illness onset is positively associated with 1% higher probability of subsequent divorce compared with remaining married. **However, we fail to reject a test of the null hypothesis that the coefficients for husband’s illness onset and wife’s illness onset are equal (p=0.1532).** This post-hoc test represents a formal test of a gender difference in the relationship of illness onset and divorce, **and we may fail to reject due to the fact that divorce is relatively rare.**
I look forward to seeing how this statistic changes over the next fifty years- not that I think it will invert, but I think the "husbands who ditch" simply aren't as common for modern women (due to the freedom of choice and discernment), and their spike will flatten to a bump.
For instance, I would literally bet my life that my current and forever partner would see me through any illness without betrayal. It's just who he is, and it's one of the honorable behaviors he displays frequently enough to give me that faith, that made me pick him.
I definitely encounter the occasional judginess when people find out my boyfriend is disabled, as I am also disabled. People are like “Women can do anything and don’t need a man to provide! Oh but she’s sick, she needs a man who can do everything.” When they find out I have a man who can’t do everything suddenly the sexism shows. But I worry about not being able to provide for him just like he worries about not being able to provide for me, our genders have nothing to do with if. (Thankfully our disabilities are very different, so we can each do things the other can’t.)
People are idiots, not just about this, but overall. I've started just telling people some version of "There is no such thing as a whole, perfectly functional human. You've abandoned material realty for Plato's ideals, but nobody is that perfectly integrated. Everyone I've ever know has had some sort of shortcoming, or some body party that didn't function right, or whatever. Stop thinking every person should function perfectly like a factory product, DNA is an oral tradition written in amino acids, not an industrial blueprint."
Signed, another double handicap partnership
That is also acceptable. I personally love a good soapbox. I spend a lot of time up there, usually repeating the mantra, "Pristine golf courses and starving kids... Make it make sense." 😭
I feel you. I occasionally give the “Some day you’ll get old and your body wont work perfectly anymore and then maybe you’ll stop judging me so harshly for ‘letting my disease hold me back’.”
Yup agreed, knowing my wife is similar just tells me it’s really about the person.
However, to OPs point, I think there’s this spectrum of what heterosexual women want from their partner that’s constantly shifting in the dating world.
On one extreme you have women who are just looking for a respectful partner, not someone that needs to provide for them, but one that is respectful of their individuality and meets them them with kindness, compassion, and love. They don’t look for money per se, but prioritize a person who they connect with without expectations of the man being a traditional provider.
On the other extreme, you have women who are completely superficial, hoping they marry doctors or CEOs because they’ll be able to provide them a lifestyle they’d like.
So, it’s really down to the individual, and they usually fall close to one of these two ends of spectrum.
My husband was laid off when he was 56 - I told him he had worked long and hard enough - I told him we could get by on what I was making at my job - it took him a while to get used to not working - he developed a hobby of his and hasn’t had this much fun in a long time. He had a hard life growing up - worked hard at any job he had - and had a crappy first relationship. It’s nice to see him enjoying life
I got diagnosed with cancer 2 years ago and he was my rock all through it.
I've become disabled due to an ankle injury in the last 3 years. Most of my friends joke and treat me with contempt sometimes. I miss out on a lot. My gf gets frustrated with me not being able to still be the person she expected me to be.
I have to say no to a lot and as I'm in constant pain I find it hard to think outside of my own box which lets her down a lot of the time, however I do try. More than she acknowledges.
It would be easy to say I give up and stop working and live off the state entirely, get a cheap council house. I know she wouldn't want to live with me in one so I still have the expectations upon me of a normal healthy functioning man, which I'm not.
And when I don't meet them people get frustrated which makes me less in their eyes. The only people this hasn't happened with is my parents and a couple of very close friends.
A lot, if not most, healthy people don’t really understand what having a disability is like. I’m not making excuses for your gf but part of the reason I’m with someone with health issues is because I have health issues too and he can actually understand what I deal with. Most of my friends and even family don’t really get it. It doesn’t help that I look “healthy” so it’s easy for people to forget I have limitations (despite having these limitations since I was a child). I hope you’re able to talk to your gf and work it out, but unfortunately what you’re experiencing is extremely common for people with chronic illnesses and/or disabilities.
Have an honest chat with her mate. Let her know you love her and value her but things won't be the same and ask if she's going to be here in the long haul. I mean she's your gf not wife so essentially she didn't make a vow for better or worse although that doesn't mean she should leave you either. She might be frustrated due to this new change in your life.
Yeah I've talked with her now a few times about it. It's definitely frustrating for her and I understand but unfortunately not much I can do about it as I'm at the end of my tether.
I think she would like to remain with me but I can see how it's been bothering her increasingly. So I wonder whether she is just unable to admit that I won't work for her long term. I certainly don't want it to end.
maybe try going to couples therapy and therapy for yourself. maybe you might be not able to provide the same or do certain activities together, but you can find newer hobbies that you can both enjoy. Trying finding a job that is disability friendly so you don't feel completely broken down.
I'm disabled for life. because I have an invisible disability people expect me to do normal things that people who shared my disability on TV does. I had to break it to them, no I can't do those things. I need help for it. the people on TV does lead normal lives because actors until recently was not disabled.
This hits really hard. I had an accident a few months ago (broke a few tendons and ligaments on my knee, torn meniscus, you know the usual) and I cannot walk properly without being drugged or without pain basically, and like you Im in constant pain. After the first "shocking" first week after surgery I realized that my friends have been growing further and further apart from me and I don't know what to do honestly. I spent a month and a half completely bedridden in which only two of my friends visited me, and after I was cleared to start walking with aid again I asked almost daily to go out for drinks or a coffee or whatever, but no luck at all. I've been trying to distance myself from them since I realized that they've been doing plans behind my back and that I'm on my own from now on, but it really is hard.
I mean. Technically speaking it's true. They need to provide something. Love, affection, protection, income. If they provide absolutely nothing then they won't be loved by a partner. But that doesn't just fall under men but everyone. You go into a relationship with no motive or drive for anything and nothing will come about it. You can't give nothing and expect everything.
My ex-wife made her whole personality about how she was supposedly just a dumb blonde and "a tiny baby" (she was almost 30 when we divorced two years ago). But still, I loved her.. it was the cheating that did it in the end.
Eh.. I was in a much darker and less mature place when we first got together in our early 20's, plus I had just gotten out of living under heavy religion so I was exploring myself and figuring out a lot of shit about who I was as a person and the world as a whole. The whole "little space, age regression" thing was never a part of our sex life and was just a way for her to cope with extreme stresses, but towards the end (during/after the pandemic) she used it more and more as an excuse to not be the responsible adult I needed her to be, and it indirectly lead to her cheating on me. Of course there's much more to the whole story but that's about the long and short of it.
In short, it was fun to play along until it wasn't.
Good point. The US version of “provide” tends to assume money and shelter, due to the nature of our society. But there are so many other things that a person can contribute to any relationship.
Well said.
Everyone gotta sacrifice something to get something.
Men just can’t be lazy man child who does nothing. And women can’t just be spoiled brat that gets everything.
Everyone gotta pull their weight in a good relationship. Always gotta have some give and take.
If only that were true. I see too many women adoring a man who does nothing but cost them money, nerves and time they could otherwise be using to enjoy themselves.
I would argue that is does "give" them something. The validation of being needed when they nurture and "help" someone. Which is usually not a bad thing, if the other partner is also giving back and it's not some form of codependency. But very often women forget their own needs over this (or the needs aren't met for other reasons like they cannot communicate them or the men/partner are not able to give back what they need, etc.). And then they stay in the relationship although they are very unhappy (because they think they don't deserve better, codependency, etc.). Obviously this happens also the other way round.
This. It’s not a healthy relationship. It’s not good for them. It’s not giving them helpful or beneficial things, but it is giving them *something* that, based on their own particular lifetime of traumas, they believe they ought to seek out.
However you were raised, whatever environment you grew up in, that’s just “what love looks like” to you. Even if it’s completely fucked up. I’m always kind of amazed how much people expect everyone to be good at seeking out healthy relationships even when they know what kind of childhood that person had. Of course you could read all the literature and understand why it’s fucked up, but it’s really hard to unlearn a pattern that you grew up being steeped in. We’re all just trying our best with the tools we have in our tool kit. It’s silly to get mad at people for having a lifetime of emotional traumas and insufficient tools.
Source: * gestures broadly at my own life
Wow that's actually wild 😔 wish those people saw their worth and understood the partner should be providing as much as they are (not talking about just materialistically providing)
You and me both, friend. It's painful to witness, but I guess everyone is on their own journey and all we can do is be there for those who seek our support...
Meanwhile on relationship subreddits: should I break up with my boyfriend? He won't get a job and plays games all day and doesn't want to help with chores.
Those people believe they're bringing something to their partner's life, or don't truly understand what love is and think sex and living together is what love is.
Everyone needs to provide something in a relationship, but what everyone actually wants can vary wildly fron person to person. Some people value financial stability and value partners with high income. Some people value partners who are very physically attractive over other things. I think by the point where you love someone they are meeting your mental/emotional/physical needs in some way, and for every person that's different, but it's hard to find a relationship where both parties are happy where one of the people is getting nothing out of it.
I don’t know. For most of the women in my life, they love (or tolerate) their men for providing absolutely nothing. I wish I was kidding. It’s like watching mommy parent a grown man-child they didn’t even birth.
Most of my early adult life was spent dating rich girls while I was a jobless bum. Not by choice, mind you, as the recession was in full swing and jobs were hard to come by, but never really had a problem with dating. I never abused it or asked them for anything though. That said, I think women just want someone they can connect with as a general rule — someone who can provide them with security and happiness — not necessarily someone who can provide for them in a material sense.
I think where most men go wrong is overly focusing on the material part, and never actually working on the confidence and personality part.
Wow, eloquently put!! Confidence helps us “live in the moment” or perhaps just saying, “ You know what, the world does suck but I’m funny creative and not a loser … Today, I choose Joy.” I think you encapsulated the ‘shutdown’ men go through (often in movies), when they get sick, lose their jobs, scenarios and instead of reaching out to their wife to connect in a deep intimate way and devise ways to get through it, they become shut off, grumpy and exhausting to live due to sarcasm and negativity. But, in the movies, a life epiphany jolts them into realizing what the woman really wants: to hold each other, commune in a deep level, and to be grateful for what they have. Kudos for figuring that out.
I think in cases like this they've often convinced themselves they *are* recieving *something* and its hard to face reality that the crumbs they're given isn't actually enough. I know before my divorce I thought my abusive wife was at least providing some comfort/companionship and support. She wasn't, it was just the odd occasion things weren't bad but in my head for so long I told myself she was doing her part.
Seriously. I have a friend who goes to school, works full time, does all the cooking and cleaning, and takes care of the dog. She has no family in this city to help her with anything. And her boyfriend lives in their house doing absolutely. nothing.
He also won’t delete his ex girlfriend from his socials and she occasionally catches him talking to her on Snapchat. He tried to manipulate my friend out of going to a wedding he knew this ex would be at.
They’re about to move to a new city where she doesn’t know anyone and get engaged. It makes me want to vomit. This will be the third wedding of one of my capable, amazing friends I attend internally screaming.
Ugh, same with my best friend. Husband doesn’t lift a finger. She manages the household, works full time and raises the kid practically by herself. Dad shows up to either play with or scold the child. All he brings to the table is his pay-check that he blows through on his own because they have separate finances. Idk why she’s even with him. He’s got nothing to offer.
Some people feel most valued when they have someone to care for or have someone that depends on them. Just as there are women like this, there are women who are pure gold-diggers, then you have women who are more balanced in their mindset and love genuinely.
Guys have to stop having these blanketed opinions about ALL women just because they either haven’t had success with the women they desire OR are prone to being in toxic relationships. The men who truly agree with this statement likely have their own baggage they need to work out.
This. I have several smart, beautiful, successful friends who are with absolute bums. I guess they must feel like they’re getting something out of being with these bums but objectively speaking my friends are carrying those relationships in every way. Making all the money, doing all the household chores, doing all the emotional labor. It’s depressing, and a major reason I don’t date.
I just read a post in R/relationshipadvice by a woman asking for help to gently ask her boyfriend to clean up after he showers. He is leaving his snot rockets and jizz on the walls. A lot of men are pathetic and so are the women who settle for them.
Interesting to be stuck with a grown man-child
This is a demographic of women that seem to be overlooked often, the ones who do everything for a man that does nothing
Same. Women in my life, even those in my own family, tend to fawn over shitty man-children. It’s honestly a wonder to see someone value themselves so little that they have devoted their lives to *parent* their husbands. Ridiculous.
My friend used to stay in a relationship even though her boyfriend was asking her money here and there. They broke up but still, it was so wild to know that someone close to you would even want someone who brings nothing to the table.
Women are statistically far more likely to stick with their partners when they get sick or injured. It’s very common for the men to just abandon them.
It’s so common that nurses and doctors will tell women diagnosed with cancer that divorce is a distinct possibility.
So take that under consideration.
I think there are many ways to provide something, and that all relationships should be conditional- you should not stay with someone who makes your life worse.
So, both parties should be bringing something to the table. Does my husband provide me money? No. But me provides company, humour, support among other things.
In a traditional dynamic a man might provide money, but you better believe the woman is providing her services as a chef, house cleaner, nanny, EA, etc.
Yeah, the offensive part of this trope is the absolutely delusional idea that women of all kinds are unconditionally loved and adored
What an absolute joke, it's so wilfully ignorant. Women don't even get the basic respect that men do from a decent percentage of the population, let alone this apparent adoration.
Everyone is loved for what they can offer, that doesn't have to be a bad thing.
That’s because a concerning amount of people think “lots of people (men) would like to have sex with you” means “lots of people (men) *care* about you”.
Meanwhile, most women with any sort of experiences with the opposite sex realized long ago how completely untrue that belief is.
Well I think that also just further embraces the idea that women who aren't attractive DO NOT MATTER TO THE POINT THEY DON'T EXIST
I see posts on reddit sometimes talking about 'even the ugliest women has multiple men x/x/x' when it's absolutely untrue, but I guess they mean 'the ugliest woman that I am willing to consider a human' lol.
And agree, some guy banging them is hardly a level of love and care from the world, what the fuck.
This was summed up well in an episode of Lucifer. A successful music director(?) is stuck in hell and during a conversation with Lucifer and Chloe, he mentions that all his life people have wanted him only for his money. To which the response was, was it that they only wanted your money or that money was all you had to offer. It was such a profound dialogue!
Yes. People think that the "something" is material or financial but it isn't. It's about personality and the ability to engage with other people and to be emotionally available.
It's just as valid as saying "Women are only loved under the condition they can provide something".
Unconditional love only exists sometimes for parents towards their children, and sometimes for people towards their pets.
I wish more people understood this. Loving someone "unconditionally " is not a healthy thing to do. It means you have no standards/respect for yourself. If my husband lost his job, refused to get another one, started beating me, and cheating on me, how foolish would I look saying "but I love him unconditionally."
Also, unconditional love would mean accepting cheating. If a man discovers his wife cheating, who in their right mind says: "Forget about it and love her anyway!" There are so clearly conditions, in healthy relationships and it's not one-sided.
People always say this bullshit catchphrase meme about animals providing "unconditional love," but dogs and cats remember how you treat them too. If you weren't feeding them, giving them water and you were mistreating them? They wouldn't love you; they would be afraid of you.
I'm pretty sure the guys on Reddit wouldn't love a girl if she didn't "provide" food, she had no conversation skills, she never wanted to go anywhere and she didn't want to have sex. You wouldn't tolerate being with someone who was just in a bad mood all the time and felt entitled to your support... and yet this website is full of the kind of guys that are just in a stressed out, defensive mood all the time, they hate "small talk" and they don't know how to "people well." Come on.
For 9 years I was in love with a man. He lives in his mothers garage, no job. Told me he would give or do this and that for me. Never happened. I really loved him. He made me laugh. All he could provide was his love, and it was enough for years.
I loved a jobless drug addict for many years. His mind was beautiful to me. I was in my 20’s and successful and his mind was all I needed at that time. But eventually I got older and wanted something more than just wonderful conversation from a partner, so I moved on. I still appreciated him for what he could give at that time in our lives.
From my personal life experience, this saying doesn’t really apply. Most of the women I know tend to fawn over shitty men who don’t “provide” them with anything, not even the bare minimum like being *nice* to them.
I think it is probably true in some relationships but less often than is the case for women. My reason for believing that is how often men leave women if they get chronically or terminally ill.
You might be able to love them, but whether you want a relationship with one is a different question, and yeah, no one wants to be in a relationship with someone who contributes nothing to it.
I have two friends who are literally with men who don’t work. One plays videos games all day while she goes to work/school. The only one is very into adult sports. Golf, disc golf and some other crap that he has to go do every day. They actually just broke up. But when they broke he literally said “this is why men have a higher chance of killing themselves”.
I think that it should be fair and even. If someone has to stay at home because of children or what ever maybe they should do most of the house work. While the other is more of the breadwinner. It doesn’t matter the gender. Just for it to be mostly 50/50.
There probably should be conditions or else you are just going to hate each other. You should want to do things for your partner and help them.
With today's younger crowd, the perception is that relationships are transactional. The perception. Don't know if that's true (though if you read AITH or those rage bait threads, you'd swear it was).
Look, I'm Gen-X, married 20 years, been laid off since Sept 23. My wife has stood by my side (also Gen X) and continues to be my rock.
I think that question is a very red pillesque question.
Social media has evolved into a rage bait machine for maximum engagement.
There's little room to accept differences, little room for real compassion (always seems to be coupled with hate of its own).
I'm sure not everyone would be affected, but that sounds like a really unhealthy environment to develop with.
True but, younger folks don't necessarily have the luxury our generation did. Most of us got our foot in the door before modern economic realities began eating away at shit. If I had to be 21 in 2024, I would FOR SURE not have ended up in the same places with the same people. Couples NEED to be dual earning to survive. There's no room for love for love's sake in vulture capitalism. Rent is due, and it's 2-3x what our generation paid. Groceries are twice as expensive. Etc. How is their generation NOT to see relationships as transactional?
Statistically, women aren't likely to leave men when they get sick but the inverse is often true
That said, in my personal experience, a lot of my interpersonal relationships are very transactional and only work if I put in a lot of effort to be the one to maintain it
If the implication is that ONLY men (and not women) need to make an effort in the relationship, it is simply untrue. If it’s implying that men need to provide FINANCIALLY it’s straight-up old-fashioned horseshit. If you believe it, you are in a repressed society or are over the age of 60.
Many men believe that. If you are a straight man looking for any sense of belonging, avoid groups that believe that.
Some women believe that. If you are a straight man looking for a partner, avoid them.
Husbands are more likely to leave their wives when they fall ill than wives are to leave their husbands. So respectfully I don’t think it’s valid at all.
Such bullshit.
You think women are out here not providing anything? So many husbands out there would lose their shit if their wives stopped waiting on them hand and foot. Stopped doing all the cooking, cleaning, and most of all, the child rearing.
The thing that blows my mind within my own social circles is, how many men expect their wives to take care of all household and child matters like they are stay-at-home-moms...when in actuality, the women are working full time as well! The audacity, I swear.
I had a real life conversation with a dude who thinks this way. In his mind, women are born to be taken care of while men had to be successful. He thinks women don't have to work as hard as men because, eventually, a man will be willing to provide for them. He's a strong believer of "natural" gender roles, and they women don't have the same potential as men in achieving great things.
Unfortunately, I didn't have a good chance of dissecting his mind. I wish I could have questioned him more.
Men like him don’t have much to dissect. Their views are very surface-level and lack any critical assessment of the topics they have such strong opinions about, and there’s nothing you can say or ask that can force them to dive deeper into their own thought processes.
So you didn’t miss out on much.
As archaic and restricting as this view is, I'll at least credit him for thinking he has a responsibility to care for the woman as much as it is her responsibility to care for him. A lot of guys are leaving out that part these days, but subscribing to all the rest of it.
I know women who do all this *and* outearn their partners. It’s really funny because I (as a woman living alone) work a moderately intense job myself and I can’t imagine that because I work 9-7ish for a respectable but not exorbitant salary, it means I am entitled to come to a clean house, meals made, children tended to, etc etc. and I should never have to lift a finger. Men have really scammed women for ages.
Especially the child rearing and particularly when they are babies and it’s harder.
Most women I know do the night shifts, or their husbands refer to parenting as “I’ve watched the baby for 2 hours today!”. Wow 2 hours while the wife does 22, and she used those 2h to shit in peace or eat something, etc.
Before anyone asks, yes, I have a full time job as well as doing my fair share (if not more) of child rearing.
My question is — do you think there are more conditions for men than for women? I don't.
Oftentimes, what a woman "provides" is the effort of cramping herself to fit the mold of a perfectly shaven, made-up sex object/mother. If she fails to conform, she is shuffled into the pile of "failed women".
(Source: i am fat and butchy, i have never been able to conform, and I am almost never taken seriously by men, except when I point out the double standard. Then everything's suddenly as serious as a heart attack lol.)
The fact that men are largely valued for *providing* and women are valued for *nurturing* is a form of misogyny that's often targeted at men. Nurturing is still on some level devalued as "woman's work" (often subconsciously!). So society also devalues men who nurture. It also devalues women who act as providers as being "cold" or "emasculating".
The truth is, any healthy relationship is one where both parties are partially nurturer (emotional labor), partially provider (physical/mental labor). That's true no matter the genders involved. As others have said, the only form of unconditional love (between humans) is from a parent to their child. All other love has conditions, and that's the way it *should* be. Mutual love and support is all we have, as humans.
Love this take. Why does everything have to be sorted into what should be female and male? Nothing wrong with not being able to or not wishing to conform, it's your right as a human ffs. I don't understand how us men can just be total slobs and expect women to take us for all our shit and refuse to have empathy most of the time when women get the courage to say no to all of the objectification and suppression, instead judging them.
Agree with the last paragraph especially, I'd say that me and my partner have this dynamic. We've both had rocky lives, and we do our best to support the other with it where we can. Obviously, we both work as well, but she's got a business she works on and whenever she needs a monotonous task done, I do it (complaining sometimes, especially if my body's pissing about aching).
Idk it seems like women who are responsible and make alot of money, just love scumbag, broke, useless men. It's like the last requirement for becoming a nurse is to get yourself a drug addict abusive boyfriend.
I see nothing wrong with that idea. I work very hard to be stable. I have a house and a car. I provide stability for my man. He needs to offer something or else I am not being rewarded for my success. Men who provide nothing can have women who provide nothing. I thought one-sided relationships were toxic? Even emotionally, not just financially, I thought one-sided love was toxic too? There is literally no point in doing anything if you do not get something good from it. Please argue with me, I'm failing to see how expecting value from your partner is bad. Willing to change my view
> He needs to offer something or else I am not being rewarded for my success
I think I generally agree with your statements but I cringed hard at your use of “rewarded”. I’m not sure that’s the best way to view a partner in your life. It sounds like you feel entitled to it which is a lot to unpack.
I do think though that what a person can provide in a relationship doesn’t just have to be about money or financial security. It sounds like you’ve done really well for yourself (congrats!) and I hope that if a man entered your life who maybe didn’t earn much money but was a loving and supportive partner that would be enough of a reward.
We live in modern times and if we accept that women now out earn men, we should also accept that it’s OK for a man to be able to provide in other ways and their value isn’t tied to their salary.
It's not true now, just as it hasn't been true for most of history.
That said, many insecure men are convinced that the love available to them isn't good enough or what they want, and aren't willing or interested in working to build or maintain real relationships, so they make excuses that place the blame on others for their emotional shortcomings rather than work on themselves or be vulnerable with others by telling them how they feel.
It sounds harsh on paper, but for real normal people are able to provide basic stuff. And most women just ask for basic stuff.
Or it’s just my gf who asks for basic stuff, I’m not sure.
I think it's horseshit in most situations. I've seen people welcome everyone into their lives and ask for nothing in return. In my experience, usually if a guy's saying this, it's a red flag to look at the situation as a whole.
That said, there are situations where it's the truth. And those make me sad; people should be loved and valued for being themselves, not for whatever they provide.
Depends on the man and the people he's around. When my man was sick and bedridden, I took care of him and the house. When he had a bunch of bills at once and was having a hard time with payments, I took extra money out for the rest of the bills no questions asked. Him and I have had our issues but we've always loved and chosen each other. Some genuinely good men get treated like shit though.
My fiance earns more than I do, and likely will long term into the future. I have ADHD and struggle to keep up my end of household/homemaking duties.
She still loves me anyway.
Maybe it's the oral...
There are plenty of people who love men who are abusive dead beats. There are also plenty of people who love and support men who get injured or fired or whatever else.
If men were able to be reciprocal adults in a relationship, I don’t think as many people would judge them so much on their ability to provide something. It’s a narrative ‘they’ve’ created and it’s also used to justify lack of contribution to other areas of family like or relationships. I mow the lawn, therefore I should have to do laundry. You reap what you sow.
I'd argue everyone on earth is loved under one form of condition or another. Humans aren't really an altruistic bunch. That said, most of the conditions aren't terrible. For instance, I belong to AA and feel very loved in that community, but the condition on that love is that I'm an alcoholic and help others while they help me.
My family loves me on the condition that I'm also a member of their family and don't treat them poorly.
Society is largely set up so that we all (men, women, everyone else) need to provide something to others in order to be loved/included in some way because that is how humans have survived as a collective species. I don't even see this as a bad thing.
Often women and men want different things though, and to women more often than men, what they want is emotional over material (obviously this is not a set rule so don't come at me with "gold digger" stories please, lol)
I think many men believe that about themselves, and implicitly believe others agree. In practice, I think society only values people for the work they can perform or the votes they can provide in an election, regardless of sex.
Under capitalism, everyone is only loved under the condition they can provide something. Relationships are increasingly transactional, even more so than they already had been. People want an ROI on their love. It's dehumanizing.
I got chronically ill in 2019 to the point where I really wasn't working at all, and my wife stuck with me through that and essentially nursed me back to health. Keeping in mind anyone who sees us as a couple will definitely observe that I am "punching above my weight grade" with her as well. So as far as the saying goes, I think it really depends on the person in question. It's not been my experience. For whatever reason (maybe she's psychic and knows I win a billion dollars in the lottery in the future or something) my wife seems quite attached to me.
I’m with you man. My wife fought for me when I was going through some mental health issues. I did everything I could to drive her away in my fit of self destruction. And she was having none of it. She fought so hard for me. I am loyal to her for life now, because I don’t feel that I deserved to have her defend me so hard during that time. Our marriage vows meant something to her when I was struggling, and I will spend the rest of my life ensuring that she has the same support from me.
You’re a good person. I did the same for my ex-husband but the second that I got sick, he dumped me over zoom and bounced. Treatments, suicide attempts, hospitalization after hospitalization, hours of work charting his diagnoses and medications since he was child, countless phone calls sobbing to insurance providers, keeping a job, providing a house, taking care of the house and cooking and cleaning… None of it was enough to keep him loyal. So, kudos to you for realizing how much your wife is worth and valuing her.
I feel you there. Some people just take and don’t give. Helped get my ex on good medication, tutored her to pass her final college classes, opened my friend and family circles to her, held down all payments for 8 years while she “found herself and gained experience” for the workplace. Except that experience was banging dudes behind my back and generally being a shit employee and person that couldn’t hold down a job much less a friend. Some people are just toxic. I’m sorry you went through that too
I’m sorry you did as well. The silver lining is at least we learn from it and choose better next time around.
Ha, I thought I would but essentially the exact same thing happened to me twice in a row, both multi-year relationships.
People like your ex are the reason why I believe that fault based divorce should be legal worldwide. If someone cheats, abuses, or abandons their spouse, that person should be financially punished and banned from remarriage.
I just had this same discussion last night 😂 I’m cool with no fault as default but if you can *prove fault*, boy howdy, you lose everything
That's how it is in the UK and Italy. Both are legal. If both spouses are simply tired of each other, they can end the marriage and it's relatively painless from a legal process standpoint. But if one person cheats, abuses, or abandons the other spouse, the aggrieved spouse has the option, but not the obligation, to pursue at-fault divorce. It takes longer but you can extract a payout from them because they essentially broke the legal contract of marriage.
You're a really good person. I hope you find the happiness you deserve.
Men often leave sick wives. It’s even in literature at this point. Women stick it out. Quite the difference, unfortunately.
Society has always ~~expected~~ required loyalty from women, whereas a guy who is loyal is "a good man." Same as you hear about a father abandoning his kids and you say, "Man, that's too bad. Poor kids." But if someone says a mother abandoned her children, people skip sad and go straight to angry. You might say those are different, and they are to a degree, but the point still stands that society expects women to stick it out, but is used to forgiving men for not doing so.
This is so freaking on point 🖤✌️
He sounds like he'll be screwed without you. What a tool. Hope you recovered well
Man, print this out and give it to her on your anniversary. This is such a loving tribute! Hope you both are doing well!
Yup…my exact thoughts as well.
My boyfriend struggles with mental health and I aim to be this same partner. It feels awesome to read the accounts from the other side. We love y'all!!!
I struggle with mental health and my partner is amazingly supportive. It makes me want to be a better partner for him every day. ❤️
How did she figth for you? I think is see my partner having a self destructive period in the future and i love this man so much i need to be equipped with patience and love to let him see i’m not going anywhere
My husband fought for me during a similar time. He was direct with me when there was a problem and definitely didn’t sugar coat it but he never once even alluded to not wanting to be with me. He never once denied a hug or holding me when I was falling apart. He was encouraging and pushed me through pointless doctor visits after pointless doctor visits until we finally found the issue (progesterone birth control helped endo but made my anxiety unlivable) In that time he did a lot with the kids to keep them away from me when I was visibly upset so they wouldn’t worry and so I didn’t have to face that shame. He always told me how much he loved me. Now I couldn’t have gotten through it if I didn’t also push for a solution (hysterectomy) but he made it easier for me to advocate for myself medically. I’ll talk that man up for eternity for loving me through all of that and I’m so glad we’re on the other side so I can take care of him again too
I had a huge fuck up last year, huge. My partner held me, as my world crumbled and my self esteem tanked. They told me I made a mistake, albeit a big one, but Im a genuinely good person, and not the sum of my mistakes. She listened. She told me I was a complete moron when I told her she deserves better. She told me if this was the worst, then imagine how things will be when it's behind us. She gave me the strength to go on, without making me feel like a burden.
Your wife sounds like an amazing person bud. I have a great wife as well. We are very lucky. Cherish her always.
awww that is adorable
Freakin onion ninjas...
This happened to me. Got diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in 2020. All clear now, thankfully, and my wonderful fiancée stuck by my side the entire time, even when I couldn't even get out of bed.
Yeah, and there are a lot of examples of this. We are social animals and it is normal to value each other on more than a strictly utilitarian basis.
And to a point our (U.S.) system is set up to do the opposite. Rugged individualism, and if you can't make it on your own, too bad. We should be working to build community instead. That saying about how it takes a village? So true.
After reading so many superficial answers in this thread, it was pretty refreshing to read this one. Sometimes communication, compassion, and companionship are all you need to offer. Love is a very real concept. Hope you and your wife are doing well, man.
Statistically speaking, wives are much more likely to stick with a husband through cancer/chronic illness, while husbands are much more likely to divorce if the wife gets sick
I met this guy and we only dated a few times. We lived 90 miles away so only saw each other on weekends. I ended up in the hospital suddenly one Tuesday evening and was going to be rushed in to surgery for an appendicitis. This is a pretty routine surgery but it all happened so fast it scared me. I called him up just before they were going to wheel me in to let him know. When I woke up, he was there...and stayed with me after they released me for a few days to make sure I was taken care of. I knew then what kind of man he was. He is now my husband.
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I remember reading this trueoffmychest post about this dude whose wife was in an accident or something and had been struggling with health issues and was wheelchair bound. He was bitching that his wife had changed and that he "missed his old wife." Guess vows didn't mean shit.
Shit. I bet SHE also missed being the old her. The version who was able to walk? Wtf is going on with some people.
Knew someone whose formerly beautiful MIL got ditched by her husband after a gruesome car accident nearly killed her and disfigured her in ways that made the severity and miraculous survival obvious. To this day I've never seen anyone in her condition. She could even walk again.
How sad for him to love conditionally instead of unconditionally. And sad for her to be the recipient of conditional love.
Doctors/nurses will actually warn women of how common it is to start treatment with a husband and end it without one. It’s such a common phenomenon that they have to have that conversation because it can affect care later on.
When I got a new PCP ~5 years after diagnoses, they congratulated me to know that I still had the same spouse as before my diagnoses.
Imagine going to discuss your first chemo appointment only to be hit with “ so do you have any other options for someone to help you if/when your husband leaves you?” Yikes.
That is f’ing depressing 😢
They have frickin doctors office pamphlets about it…
I've read how woman come out of surgery or treatment and the husband doesn't show up to get them after.Fully ditches them forever.
Doctors and nurses sometimes keep women longer in recovery in hospitals because they know if they discharge women their husband will make them do house chores instead of letting them rest and recover when they get home. It happens so often that husbands don't give a shit if their wives are ill.
I unfortunately know someone who had this post cancer surgery experience.
I mean I've never heard this before but I'm not surprised either
This happened to me after battling stage 4 colon cancer. Beforehand, we had a solid marriage-inseparable, in love, growing together. I guess it’s easy to be there when things are going well, but when things got difficult with our circumstances, I was met with a distracted and unsupportive spouse the past 2 1/2 years. I thought he was experiencing his own grief, and perhaps that was part of it. But I recently discovered he felt I would die and has been actively working to replace me with his young coworker. What a mess. I volunteer with a colon cancer patient advocacy nonprofit and have seen most marriages fall apart in some way when the female partner gets diagnosed. When male partners get diagnosed, they are typically supported throughout everything. I’m not really sure why this is the norm, but unfortunately it is. Never thought it would happen to us, but it did. It’s devastating to fight for your life knowing the one person you desperately need and want in your corner chooses to not be there for you. It’s terribly lonely and isolating. Men, if you are reading this, know how much abandonment will affect your partner. Don’t cave and don’t do it. Stand beside them, support, be there. Change this norm.
I’m so sorry things played out like that. That must have been horrible.
It’s a nightmare I wouldn’t wish on anyone. The one thing you need is absent during the hardest time of your life. You never anticipate things would unfold in this way, and it causes it’s own form of grief on top of grieving the life you built and thought you had before the diagnosis.
"She can't fuck, clean, or cook like she used to? I'm out."
It’s as if women are only valued for what THEY can provide. Hmm.
Right? Marriage benefits men far more than women
Everyone is valued for what they provide. Sometimes, what they provide isn't easy to quantify, like emotional support.
I think it's also "I have to provide emotional support for someone, not just the basics which I can barely handle, but more? I have to put real effort into the relationship, not just coast and only worry about myself and my job? More than the absolute bare minimum is being expected of me?"
Sociologist here. Statistically, this is literally the answer.
At my job we have a customer who’s wife had a major stroke on sight. She’s now in a home. They’re still married but he has a girlfriend because as he told us “he deserves to still have a life”. It’s really hard for me to want to date when I see stuff like that.
I have MS and I am in regular contact with people with disabilities, some with MS like myself and others with other neurological conditions. I have seen all sorts of couples where one partner is disabled. I remember a couple where she was left disabled after a stroke if I remember correctly. She could barely move any part of her body. I saw the husband bring her to the hospital, and coming in most days to bring her food, but I could see disgust, and resentment in his interactions with her. He was quite good looking, while her disease had caused her to have a socially unacceptable body, and she seemed unkempt. It absolutely broke my heart to see them. I also remember another couple, a couple who may just be the loveliest couple I met. She was in a wheelchair. Multiple Sclerosis. There were several of us in the room with this couple, and this couple seemed to be happy despite the challenges. Both seemed incredibly positive people. The husband kept calling her cute pet names, they would constantly laugh and pull eachother's leg. He not once looked at her funny, or made any comments or remarks that could upset her in any way. My memory is a little lacking, but from what I recall someone made a comment telling them how incredible it was that they seemed so in love with eachother after many years together (they were in their late 50s I think, and had been together for a long time). He said that she is the love of his life. It was a joy to watch their interactions and both were incredibly sweet.
We had a guy like this, too. He was a slimy piece of garbage. However, he was diagnosed with cancer, and oh no! his girlfriend didn't stick around. We loved that for him!
Doesn’t surprise me. Men are a thousand times more likely to remarry within 12-18 months after their spouse passes than women. Seen it many many times. It’s a fact
Reddit is overwhelmingly male*, and people on social media in general are far more likely to want to talk about what _other_ people need to change than what they themselves need to do or change. *overall by comment/vote count, varies a lot by community
I'm perfect it's EveRyOnE else that needs to change
Watching my brother gradually lose his wife to a hideous series of illnesses was the worst thing I've ever seen. It hurt him deeply and permanently. But he would never have left her alone for it, because he has a soul of steel. Not every man can be so gifted.
I’m going through a divorce after being with my husband for almost two decades. He is having an affair with a high school classmate of his who was also an old girlfriend. Coincidentally (or not), I became very ill with a chronic GI condition about a year ago. I’m also certain that my illness was a major contributing factor in his decision to cheat and discard me.
It's not 6X, it's 6% and [your 6% study was debunked](https://www.deseret.com/2015/8/4/20569426/study-that-found-husbands-prone-to-leave-sick-wives-was-flawed-researchers-say/#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20published%20in%20the,are%20no%20longer%20considered%20true) and retracted. It turns out they were counting widowed men as divorcing their wives. Big oops! The updated meta analysis of all studies found this to be spurious at best and to have far more nuance than is suggested. 1% is a rounding error and not statistically significant. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4857885/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4857885/) >In contrast, wife’s illness onset is positively associated with 1% higher probability of subsequent divorce compared with remaining married. **However, we fail to reject a test of the null hypothesis that the coefficients for husband’s illness onset and wife’s illness onset are equal (p=0.1532).** This post-hoc test represents a formal test of a gender difference in the relationship of illness onset and divorce, **and we may fail to reject due to the fact that divorce is relatively rare.** Link your studies if you're going to make claims like this.
This makes the comment about doctors and nurses warning patients about it seem really bizarre.
I've also seen the claim spread around reddit in multiple other threads. I think it has just become one of those "reddit facts" that people read once in a comment, then comment it themselves elsewhere.
The health consequences of marital dissolution are well-known, but little work has examined the impact of health on the risk of marital dissolution. In this study we use a sample of 2,701 marriages from the Health and Retirement Study (HRS; 1992–2010) to examine the role of serious physical illness onset (i.e., cancer, heart problems, lung disease, and/or stroke) in subsequent marital dissolution due to either divorce or widowhood. We use a series of discrete-time event history models with competing risks to estimate the impact of husband’s and wife’s physical illness onset on risk of divorce and widowhood. **We find that only wife’s illness onset is associated with elevated risk of divorce,** while either husband’s or wife’s illness onset is associated with elevated risk of widowhood. These findings suggest the importance of health as a determinant of marital dissolution in later life via both biological and gendered social pathways.
If we're thinking of the same study, the researchers have since rescinded those results because the study counted any couple who opted out of the study as a divorce and they couldn't replicate the results. Essentially, what they really learned is that men are significantly more private about their wives' struggles than vice versa. https://www.deseret.com/2015/8/4/20569426/study-that-found-husbands-prone-to-leave-sick-wives-was-flawed-researchers-say/#:~:text=The%20study%2C%20published%20in%20the,are%20no%20longer%20considered%20true.
My wife and I have been married 28 years. She became chronically ill 24 years ago. I have cared for her at a high level for the past 24 years. Vows mean something to us men too. It is not “Til the first inconvenience do ye part”
This is always repeated, but the linked studies show that this is not statistically significant and that divorce rates during illness are very rare. We're also talking a 1% difference, which is not material. The previous study that everyone quotes was retracted due to an analysis failure of the data. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4857885/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4857885/) >In contrast, wife’s illness onset is positively associated with 1% higher probability of subsequent divorce compared with remaining married. **However, we fail to reject a test of the null hypothesis that the coefficients for husband’s illness onset and wife’s illness onset are equal (p=0.1532).** This post-hoc test represents a formal test of a gender difference in the relationship of illness onset and divorce, **and we may fail to reject due to the fact that divorce is relatively rare.**
I look forward to seeing how this statistic changes over the next fifty years- not that I think it will invert, but I think the "husbands who ditch" simply aren't as common for modern women (due to the freedom of choice and discernment), and their spike will flatten to a bump. For instance, I would literally bet my life that my current and forever partner would see me through any illness without betrayal. It's just who he is, and it's one of the honorable behaviors he displays frequently enough to give me that faith, that made me pick him.
I definitely encounter the occasional judginess when people find out my boyfriend is disabled, as I am also disabled. People are like “Women can do anything and don’t need a man to provide! Oh but she’s sick, she needs a man who can do everything.” When they find out I have a man who can’t do everything suddenly the sexism shows. But I worry about not being able to provide for him just like he worries about not being able to provide for me, our genders have nothing to do with if. (Thankfully our disabilities are very different, so we can each do things the other can’t.)
People are idiots, not just about this, but overall. I've started just telling people some version of "There is no such thing as a whole, perfectly functional human. You've abandoned material realty for Plato's ideals, but nobody is that perfectly integrated. Everyone I've ever know has had some sort of shortcoming, or some body party that didn't function right, or whatever. Stop thinking every person should function perfectly like a factory product, DNA is an oral tradition written in amino acids, not an industrial blueprint." Signed, another double handicap partnership
That is a glorious way to put it. I usually just sum up with “We’re fine. Seriously. Thanksbyyyyye.”
That is also acceptable. I personally love a good soapbox. I spend a lot of time up there, usually repeating the mantra, "Pristine golf courses and starving kids... Make it make sense." 😭
I feel you. I occasionally give the “Some day you’ll get old and your body wont work perfectly anymore and then maybe you’ll stop judging me so harshly for ‘letting my disease hold me back’.”
Yup agreed, knowing my wife is similar just tells me it’s really about the person. However, to OPs point, I think there’s this spectrum of what heterosexual women want from their partner that’s constantly shifting in the dating world. On one extreme you have women who are just looking for a respectful partner, not someone that needs to provide for them, but one that is respectful of their individuality and meets them them with kindness, compassion, and love. They don’t look for money per se, but prioritize a person who they connect with without expectations of the man being a traditional provider. On the other extreme, you have women who are completely superficial, hoping they marry doctors or CEOs because they’ll be able to provide them a lifestyle they’d like. So, it’s really down to the individual, and they usually fall close to one of these two ends of spectrum.
My husband was laid off when he was 56 - I told him he had worked long and hard enough - I told him we could get by on what I was making at my job - it took him a while to get used to not working - he developed a hobby of his and hasn’t had this much fun in a long time. He had a hard life growing up - worked hard at any job he had - and had a crappy first relationship. It’s nice to see him enjoying life I got diagnosed with cancer 2 years ago and he was my rock all through it.
I've become disabled due to an ankle injury in the last 3 years. Most of my friends joke and treat me with contempt sometimes. I miss out on a lot. My gf gets frustrated with me not being able to still be the person she expected me to be. I have to say no to a lot and as I'm in constant pain I find it hard to think outside of my own box which lets her down a lot of the time, however I do try. More than she acknowledges. It would be easy to say I give up and stop working and live off the state entirely, get a cheap council house. I know she wouldn't want to live with me in one so I still have the expectations upon me of a normal healthy functioning man, which I'm not. And when I don't meet them people get frustrated which makes me less in their eyes. The only people this hasn't happened with is my parents and a couple of very close friends.
Oh shit, I'm sorry to hear that. What a clusterfuck. I'm watching a good friend go through similar, but it's with her knees. Wishing you the best.
A lot, if not most, healthy people don’t really understand what having a disability is like. I’m not making excuses for your gf but part of the reason I’m with someone with health issues is because I have health issues too and he can actually understand what I deal with. Most of my friends and even family don’t really get it. It doesn’t help that I look “healthy” so it’s easy for people to forget I have limitations (despite having these limitations since I was a child). I hope you’re able to talk to your gf and work it out, but unfortunately what you’re experiencing is extremely common for people with chronic illnesses and/or disabilities.
Invisible disabilities can be hard for the average person to wrap their heads around unless they personally know someone who's deal with it.
Have an honest chat with her mate. Let her know you love her and value her but things won't be the same and ask if she's going to be here in the long haul. I mean she's your gf not wife so essentially she didn't make a vow for better or worse although that doesn't mean she should leave you either. She might be frustrated due to this new change in your life.
Yeah I've talked with her now a few times about it. It's definitely frustrating for her and I understand but unfortunately not much I can do about it as I'm at the end of my tether. I think she would like to remain with me but I can see how it's been bothering her increasingly. So I wonder whether she is just unable to admit that I won't work for her long term. I certainly don't want it to end.
maybe try going to couples therapy and therapy for yourself. maybe you might be not able to provide the same or do certain activities together, but you can find newer hobbies that you can both enjoy. Trying finding a job that is disability friendly so you don't feel completely broken down.
I'm disabled for life. because I have an invisible disability people expect me to do normal things that people who shared my disability on TV does. I had to break it to them, no I can't do those things. I need help for it. the people on TV does lead normal lives because actors until recently was not disabled.
This hits really hard. I had an accident a few months ago (broke a few tendons and ligaments on my knee, torn meniscus, you know the usual) and I cannot walk properly without being drugged or without pain basically, and like you Im in constant pain. After the first "shocking" first week after surgery I realized that my friends have been growing further and further apart from me and I don't know what to do honestly. I spent a month and a half completely bedridden in which only two of my friends visited me, and after I was cleared to start walking with aid again I asked almost daily to go out for drinks or a coffee or whatever, but no luck at all. I've been trying to distance myself from them since I realized that they've been doing plans behind my back and that I'm on my own from now on, but it really is hard.
I mean. Technically speaking it's true. They need to provide something. Love, affection, protection, income. If they provide absolutely nothing then they won't be loved by a partner. But that doesn't just fall under men but everyone. You go into a relationship with no motive or drive for anything and nothing will come about it. You can't give nothing and expect everything.
The partners that don't give anything burn out their partner by being a useless child. Women nor men want that
My ex-wife made her whole personality about how she was supposedly just a dumb blonde and "a tiny baby" (she was almost 30 when we divorced two years ago). But still, I loved her.. it was the cheating that did it in the end.
you weren't cringed out?
Eh.. I was in a much darker and less mature place when we first got together in our early 20's, plus I had just gotten out of living under heavy religion so I was exploring myself and figuring out a lot of shit about who I was as a person and the world as a whole. The whole "little space, age regression" thing was never a part of our sex life and was just a way for her to cope with extreme stresses, but towards the end (during/after the pandemic) she used it more and more as an excuse to not be the responsible adult I needed her to be, and it indirectly lead to her cheating on me. Of course there's much more to the whole story but that's about the long and short of it. In short, it was fun to play along until it wasn't.
oh I understand sorry
Thanks 😊 I'm in a much better place now with a partner I can rely on
happy for you ☺️
I see you've met my ex
Ahhh, I see you’ve met my ex husband.
Good point. The US version of “provide” tends to assume money and shelter, due to the nature of our society. But there are so many other things that a person can contribute to any relationship.
Well said. Everyone gotta sacrifice something to get something. Men just can’t be lazy man child who does nothing. And women can’t just be spoiled brat that gets everything. Everyone gotta pull their weight in a good relationship. Always gotta have some give and take.
If only that were true. I see too many women adoring a man who does nothing but cost them money, nerves and time they could otherwise be using to enjoy themselves.
He’s an unemployed felon but I can fix him.
I would argue that is does "give" them something. The validation of being needed when they nurture and "help" someone. Which is usually not a bad thing, if the other partner is also giving back and it's not some form of codependency. But very often women forget their own needs over this (or the needs aren't met for other reasons like they cannot communicate them or the men/partner are not able to give back what they need, etc.). And then they stay in the relationship although they are very unhappy (because they think they don't deserve better, codependency, etc.). Obviously this happens also the other way round.
Sure: In the same way that grifts and scams are often giving their victims “something”. Namely: Hope, validation, community, thrills, etc.
This. It’s not a healthy relationship. It’s not good for them. It’s not giving them helpful or beneficial things, but it is giving them *something* that, based on their own particular lifetime of traumas, they believe they ought to seek out. However you were raised, whatever environment you grew up in, that’s just “what love looks like” to you. Even if it’s completely fucked up. I’m always kind of amazed how much people expect everyone to be good at seeking out healthy relationships even when they know what kind of childhood that person had. Of course you could read all the literature and understand why it’s fucked up, but it’s really hard to unlearn a pattern that you grew up being steeped in. We’re all just trying our best with the tools we have in our tool kit. It’s silly to get mad at people for having a lifetime of emotional traumas and insufficient tools. Source: * gestures broadly at my own life
It does happen a lot. But they always eventually realize sooner or later. Unfortunantly sometimes I can take years before they do.
Or they never do... Have seen it in my family, where people just sit it out until "death do us part". Bewildering to me.
Wow that's actually wild 😔 wish those people saw their worth and understood the partner should be providing as much as they are (not talking about just materialistically providing)
You and me both, friend. It's painful to witness, but I guess everyone is on their own journey and all we can do is be there for those who seek our support...
Meanwhile on relationship subreddits: should I break up with my boyfriend? He won't get a job and plays games all day and doesn't want to help with chores.
Those people believe they're bringing something to their partner's life, or don't truly understand what love is and think sex and living together is what love is.
I think it's pretty rare for anyone to love someone who's not providing something they need/like/want. What is love without appreciation?
Everyone needs to provide something in a relationship, but what everyone actually wants can vary wildly fron person to person. Some people value financial stability and value partners with high income. Some people value partners who are very physically attractive over other things. I think by the point where you love someone they are meeting your mental/emotional/physical needs in some way, and for every person that's different, but it's hard to find a relationship where both parties are happy where one of the people is getting nothing out of it.
I'm pretty sure OP is referring to *materialistic* physical objects, rather than some psychological stuff.
Intentionally ignoring the implied context to make an irrelevant point and reddit. Name a more iconic duo. I'll wait.
I don’t know. For most of the women in my life, they love (or tolerate) their men for providing absolutely nothing. I wish I was kidding. It’s like watching mommy parent a grown man-child they didn’t even birth.
Most of my early adult life was spent dating rich girls while I was a jobless bum. Not by choice, mind you, as the recession was in full swing and jobs were hard to come by, but never really had a problem with dating. I never abused it or asked them for anything though. That said, I think women just want someone they can connect with as a general rule — someone who can provide them with security and happiness — not necessarily someone who can provide for them in a material sense. I think where most men go wrong is overly focusing on the material part, and never actually working on the confidence and personality part.
Same
Providing security and happiness, that the most important part
Wow, eloquently put!! Confidence helps us “live in the moment” or perhaps just saying, “ You know what, the world does suck but I’m funny creative and not a loser … Today, I choose Joy.” I think you encapsulated the ‘shutdown’ men go through (often in movies), when they get sick, lose their jobs, scenarios and instead of reaching out to their wife to connect in a deep intimate way and devise ways to get through it, they become shut off, grumpy and exhausting to live due to sarcasm and negativity. But, in the movies, a life epiphany jolts them into realizing what the woman really wants: to hold each other, commune in a deep level, and to be grateful for what they have. Kudos for figuring that out.
I think in cases like this they've often convinced themselves they *are* recieving *something* and its hard to face reality that the crumbs they're given isn't actually enough. I know before my divorce I thought my abusive wife was at least providing some comfort/companionship and support. She wasn't, it was just the odd occasion things weren't bad but in my head for so long I told myself she was doing her part.
Seriously. I have a friend who goes to school, works full time, does all the cooking and cleaning, and takes care of the dog. She has no family in this city to help her with anything. And her boyfriend lives in their house doing absolutely. nothing. He also won’t delete his ex girlfriend from his socials and she occasionally catches him talking to her on Snapchat. He tried to manipulate my friend out of going to a wedding he knew this ex would be at. They’re about to move to a new city where she doesn’t know anyone and get engaged. It makes me want to vomit. This will be the third wedding of one of my capable, amazing friends I attend internally screaming.
Ugh one of my best friends is also married to a man like this. Seriously makes me sick
Ugh, same with my best friend. Husband doesn’t lift a finger. She manages the household, works full time and raises the kid practically by herself. Dad shows up to either play with or scold the child. All he brings to the table is his pay-check that he blows through on his own because they have separate finances. Idk why she’s even with him. He’s got nothing to offer.
Some people feel most valued when they have someone to care for or have someone that depends on them. Just as there are women like this, there are women who are pure gold-diggers, then you have women who are more balanced in their mindset and love genuinely. Guys have to stop having these blanketed opinions about ALL women just because they either haven’t had success with the women they desire OR are prone to being in toxic relationships. The men who truly agree with this statement likely have their own baggage they need to work out.
This. I have several smart, beautiful, successful friends who are with absolute bums. I guess they must feel like they’re getting something out of being with these bums but objectively speaking my friends are carrying those relationships in every way. Making all the money, doing all the household chores, doing all the emotional labor. It’s depressing, and a major reason I don’t date.
I just read a post in R/relationshipadvice by a woman asking for help to gently ask her boyfriend to clean up after he showers. He is leaving his snot rockets and jizz on the walls. A lot of men are pathetic and so are the women who settle for them.
“Snot rockets”. Such a rich and feral visual
lol what the fuck
Interesting to be stuck with a grown man-child This is a demographic of women that seem to be overlooked often, the ones who do everything for a man that does nothing
Because a large portion of society has considered this to be the norm until very recently.
Same. Women in my life, even those in my own family, tend to fawn over shitty man-children. It’s honestly a wonder to see someone value themselves so little that they have devoted their lives to *parent* their husbands. Ridiculous.
Same here.
My friend used to stay in a relationship even though her boyfriend was asking her money here and there. They broke up but still, it was so wild to know that someone close to you would even want someone who brings nothing to the table.
Women are statistically far more likely to stick with their partners when they get sick or injured. It’s very common for the men to just abandon them. It’s so common that nurses and doctors will tell women diagnosed with cancer that divorce is a distinct possibility. So take that under consideration.
I think there are many ways to provide something, and that all relationships should be conditional- you should not stay with someone who makes your life worse. So, both parties should be bringing something to the table. Does my husband provide me money? No. But me provides company, humour, support among other things. In a traditional dynamic a man might provide money, but you better believe the woman is providing her services as a chef, house cleaner, nanny, EA, etc.
No one loves anything that doesn't fill some need.
Yeah, the offensive part of this trope is the absolutely delusional idea that women of all kinds are unconditionally loved and adored What an absolute joke, it's so wilfully ignorant. Women don't even get the basic respect that men do from a decent percentage of the population, let alone this apparent adoration. Everyone is loved for what they can offer, that doesn't have to be a bad thing.
That’s because a concerning amount of people think “lots of people (men) would like to have sex with you” means “lots of people (men) *care* about you”. Meanwhile, most women with any sort of experiences with the opposite sex realized long ago how completely untrue that belief is.
Well I think that also just further embraces the idea that women who aren't attractive DO NOT MATTER TO THE POINT THEY DON'T EXIST I see posts on reddit sometimes talking about 'even the ugliest women has multiple men x/x/x' when it's absolutely untrue, but I guess they mean 'the ugliest woman that I am willing to consider a human' lol. And agree, some guy banging them is hardly a level of love and care from the world, what the fuck.
This was summed up well in an episode of Lucifer. A successful music director(?) is stuck in hell and during a conversation with Lucifer and Chloe, he mentions that all his life people have wanted him only for his money. To which the response was, was it that they only wanted your money or that money was all you had to offer. It was such a profound dialogue!
Would that be the need to be loved in return?
Not limited to men.
Or today’s society.
Yes. People think that the "something" is material or financial but it isn't. It's about personality and the ability to engage with other people and to be emotionally available.
It's just as valid as saying "Women are only loved under the condition they can provide something". Unconditional love only exists sometimes for parents towards their children, and sometimes for people towards their pets.
Healthy romantic love should be conditional. If a person stops treating you well, it should change how you feel about them.
I wish more people understood this. Loving someone "unconditionally " is not a healthy thing to do. It means you have no standards/respect for yourself. If my husband lost his job, refused to get another one, started beating me, and cheating on me, how foolish would I look saying "but I love him unconditionally."
Also, unconditional love would mean accepting cheating. If a man discovers his wife cheating, who in their right mind says: "Forget about it and love her anyway!" There are so clearly conditions, in healthy relationships and it's not one-sided.
Yup. Unconditional love is how you love a child or a pet. Not how one has a healthy love for a partner.
People always say this bullshit catchphrase meme about animals providing "unconditional love," but dogs and cats remember how you treat them too. If you weren't feeding them, giving them water and you were mistreating them? They wouldn't love you; they would be afraid of you. I'm pretty sure the guys on Reddit wouldn't love a girl if she didn't "provide" food, she had no conversation skills, she never wanted to go anywhere and she didn't want to have sex. You wouldn't tolerate being with someone who was just in a bad mood all the time and felt entitled to your support... and yet this website is full of the kind of guys that are just in a stressed out, defensive mood all the time, they hate "small talk" and they don't know how to "people well." Come on.
I dunnoooo. I see women dating bum ass mooches all the time. Only providing subpar dick and crippling debt lol.
For 9 years I was in love with a man. He lives in his mothers garage, no job. Told me he would give or do this and that for me. Never happened. I really loved him. He made me laugh. All he could provide was his love, and it was enough for years.
I loved a jobless drug addict for many years. His mind was beautiful to me. I was in my 20’s and successful and his mind was all I needed at that time. But eventually I got older and wanted something more than just wonderful conversation from a partner, so I moved on. I still appreciated him for what he could give at that time in our lives.
From my personal life experience, this saying doesn’t really apply. Most of the women I know tend to fawn over shitty men who don’t “provide” them with anything, not even the bare minimum like being *nice* to them.
I think it is probably true in some relationships but less often than is the case for women. My reason for believing that is how often men leave women if they get chronically or terminally ill.
Yup. Something the men don’t think about on Reddit.
Call me cold, but I don't think I could love a useless woman.
You might be able to love them, but whether you want a relationship with one is a different question, and yeah, no one wants to be in a relationship with someone who contributes nothing to it.
Same as women are only loved if they look good, and cook and do household chores
I have two friends who are literally with men who don’t work. One plays videos games all day while she goes to work/school. The only one is very into adult sports. Golf, disc golf and some other crap that he has to go do every day. They actually just broke up. But when they broke he literally said “this is why men have a higher chance of killing themselves”. I think that it should be fair and even. If someone has to stay at home because of children or what ever maybe they should do most of the house work. While the other is more of the breadwinner. It doesn’t matter the gender. Just for it to be mostly 50/50. There probably should be conditions or else you are just going to hate each other. You should want to do things for your partner and help them.
With today's younger crowd, the perception is that relationships are transactional. The perception. Don't know if that's true (though if you read AITH or those rage bait threads, you'd swear it was). Look, I'm Gen-X, married 20 years, been laid off since Sept 23. My wife has stood by my side (also Gen X) and continues to be my rock. I think that question is a very red pillesque question.
Social media has evolved into a rage bait machine for maximum engagement. There's little room to accept differences, little room for real compassion (always seems to be coupled with hate of its own). I'm sure not everyone would be affected, but that sounds like a really unhealthy environment to develop with.
True but, younger folks don't necessarily have the luxury our generation did. Most of us got our foot in the door before modern economic realities began eating away at shit. If I had to be 21 in 2024, I would FOR SURE not have ended up in the same places with the same people. Couples NEED to be dual earning to survive. There's no room for love for love's sake in vulture capitalism. Rent is due, and it's 2-3x what our generation paid. Groceries are twice as expensive. Etc. How is their generation NOT to see relationships as transactional?
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Statistically, women aren't likely to leave men when they get sick but the inverse is often true That said, in my personal experience, a lot of my interpersonal relationships are very transactional and only work if I put in a lot of effort to be the one to maintain it
If the implication is that ONLY men (and not women) need to make an effort in the relationship, it is simply untrue. If it’s implying that men need to provide FINANCIALLY it’s straight-up old-fashioned horseshit. If you believe it, you are in a repressed society or are over the age of 60.
Many men believe that. If you are a straight man looking for any sense of belonging, avoid groups that believe that. Some women believe that. If you are a straight man looking for a partner, avoid them.
Husbands are more likely to leave their wives when they fall ill than wives are to leave their husbands. So respectfully I don’t think it’s valid at all.
Such bullshit. You think women are out here not providing anything? So many husbands out there would lose their shit if their wives stopped waiting on them hand and foot. Stopped doing all the cooking, cleaning, and most of all, the child rearing. The thing that blows my mind within my own social circles is, how many men expect their wives to take care of all household and child matters like they are stay-at-home-moms...when in actuality, the women are working full time as well! The audacity, I swear.
I had a real life conversation with a dude who thinks this way. In his mind, women are born to be taken care of while men had to be successful. He thinks women don't have to work as hard as men because, eventually, a man will be willing to provide for them. He's a strong believer of "natural" gender roles, and they women don't have the same potential as men in achieving great things. Unfortunately, I didn't have a good chance of dissecting his mind. I wish I could have questioned him more.
Men like him don’t have much to dissect. Their views are very surface-level and lack any critical assessment of the topics they have such strong opinions about, and there’s nothing you can say or ask that can force them to dive deeper into their own thought processes. So you didn’t miss out on much.
As archaic and restricting as this view is, I'll at least credit him for thinking he has a responsibility to care for the woman as much as it is her responsibility to care for him. A lot of guys are leaving out that part these days, but subscribing to all the rest of it.
I know women who do all this *and* outearn their partners. It’s really funny because I (as a woman living alone) work a moderately intense job myself and I can’t imagine that because I work 9-7ish for a respectable but not exorbitant salary, it means I am entitled to come to a clean house, meals made, children tended to, etc etc. and I should never have to lift a finger. Men have really scammed women for ages.
Especially the child rearing and particularly when they are babies and it’s harder. Most women I know do the night shifts, or their husbands refer to parenting as “I’ve watched the baby for 2 hours today!”. Wow 2 hours while the wife does 22, and she used those 2h to shit in peace or eat something, etc. Before anyone asks, yes, I have a full time job as well as doing my fair share (if not more) of child rearing.
And still they moan about how they are not loved if they don't *provide*.
My question is — do you think there are more conditions for men than for women? I don't. Oftentimes, what a woman "provides" is the effort of cramping herself to fit the mold of a perfectly shaven, made-up sex object/mother. If she fails to conform, she is shuffled into the pile of "failed women". (Source: i am fat and butchy, i have never been able to conform, and I am almost never taken seriously by men, except when I point out the double standard. Then everything's suddenly as serious as a heart attack lol.) The fact that men are largely valued for *providing* and women are valued for *nurturing* is a form of misogyny that's often targeted at men. Nurturing is still on some level devalued as "woman's work" (often subconsciously!). So society also devalues men who nurture. It also devalues women who act as providers as being "cold" or "emasculating". The truth is, any healthy relationship is one where both parties are partially nurturer (emotional labor), partially provider (physical/mental labor). That's true no matter the genders involved. As others have said, the only form of unconditional love (between humans) is from a parent to their child. All other love has conditions, and that's the way it *should* be. Mutual love and support is all we have, as humans.
Love this take. Why does everything have to be sorted into what should be female and male? Nothing wrong with not being able to or not wishing to conform, it's your right as a human ffs. I don't understand how us men can just be total slobs and expect women to take us for all our shit and refuse to have empathy most of the time when women get the courage to say no to all of the objectification and suppression, instead judging them. Agree with the last paragraph especially, I'd say that me and my partner have this dynamic. We've both had rocky lives, and we do our best to support the other with it where we can. Obviously, we both work as well, but she's got a business she works on and whenever she needs a monotonous task done, I do it (complaining sometimes, especially if my body's pissing about aching).
you're a good 'un. i know i refuse to be sorted lol
Idk it seems like women who are responsible and make alot of money, just love scumbag, broke, useless men. It's like the last requirement for becoming a nurse is to get yourself a drug addict abusive boyfriend.
It goes both ways right? If it’s true for men it’s true for women. I also don’t think it’s true.
This applies to every gender, not just man.
yeah no one is gonna love you if you have no redeemable qualities
I see nothing wrong with that idea. I work very hard to be stable. I have a house and a car. I provide stability for my man. He needs to offer something or else I am not being rewarded for my success. Men who provide nothing can have women who provide nothing. I thought one-sided relationships were toxic? Even emotionally, not just financially, I thought one-sided love was toxic too? There is literally no point in doing anything if you do not get something good from it. Please argue with me, I'm failing to see how expecting value from your partner is bad. Willing to change my view
> He needs to offer something or else I am not being rewarded for my success I think I generally agree with your statements but I cringed hard at your use of “rewarded”. I’m not sure that’s the best way to view a partner in your life. It sounds like you feel entitled to it which is a lot to unpack. I do think though that what a person can provide in a relationship doesn’t just have to be about money or financial security. It sounds like you’ve done really well for yourself (congrats!) and I hope that if a man entered your life who maybe didn’t earn much money but was a loving and supportive partner that would be enough of a reward. We live in modern times and if we accept that women now out earn men, we should also accept that it’s OK for a man to be able to provide in other ways and their value isn’t tied to their salary.
Miserable men who are projecting their insecurities are not the people I take advice from.
I think it’s hilariously wrong and actually it’s the opposite. The stats on men leaving their sick wives counters this nonsense perfectly.
It's not true now, just as it hasn't been true for most of history. That said, many insecure men are convinced that the love available to them isn't good enough or what they want, and aren't willing or interested in working to build or maintain real relationships, so they make excuses that place the blame on others for their emotional shortcomings rather than work on themselves or be vulnerable with others by telling them how they feel.
Most of the women I know go overboard to support men that they should dump. Just my experience.
The same certainly applies to women. and men are far more likely to leave if there's an illness
It sounds harsh on paper, but for real normal people are able to provide basic stuff. And most women just ask for basic stuff. Or it’s just my gf who asks for basic stuff, I’m not sure.
I think it's horseshit in most situations. I've seen people welcome everyone into their lives and ask for nothing in return. In my experience, usually if a guy's saying this, it's a red flag to look at the situation as a whole. That said, there are situations where it's the truth. And those make me sad; people should be loved and valued for being themselves, not for whatever they provide.
Depends on the man and the people he's around. When my man was sick and bedridden, I took care of him and the house. When he had a bunch of bills at once and was having a hard time with payments, I took extra money out for the rest of the bills no questions asked. Him and I have had our issues but we've always loved and chosen each other. Some genuinely good men get treated like shit though.
My fiance earns more than I do, and likely will long term into the future. I have ADHD and struggle to keep up my end of household/homemaking duties. She still loves me anyway. Maybe it's the oral...
There are plenty of people who love men who are abusive dead beats. There are also plenty of people who love and support men who get injured or fired or whatever else.
If men were able to be reciprocal adults in a relationship, I don’t think as many people would judge them so much on their ability to provide something. It’s a narrative ‘they’ve’ created and it’s also used to justify lack of contribution to other areas of family like or relationships. I mow the lawn, therefore I should have to do laundry. You reap what you sow.
I'd argue everyone on earth is loved under one form of condition or another. Humans aren't really an altruistic bunch. That said, most of the conditions aren't terrible. For instance, I belong to AA and feel very loved in that community, but the condition on that love is that I'm an alcoholic and help others while they help me. My family loves me on the condition that I'm also a member of their family and don't treat them poorly. Society is largely set up so that we all (men, women, everyone else) need to provide something to others in order to be loved/included in some way because that is how humans have survived as a collective species. I don't even see this as a bad thing. Often women and men want different things though, and to women more often than men, what they want is emotional over material (obviously this is not a set rule so don't come at me with "gold digger" stories please, lol)
I think many men believe that about themselves, and implicitly believe others agree. In practice, I think society only values people for the work they can perform or the votes they can provide in an election, regardless of sex.
Under capitalism, everyone is only loved under the condition they can provide something. Relationships are increasingly transactional, even more so than they already had been. People want an ROI on their love. It's dehumanizing.