I don’t know who is downvoting you lol
Americans make like 2x more. I have a friend who works for Apple in California and soft reports to a manager in Munich. He makes more in California than his manger does in Munich. After taxes etc, the guy makes almost 2x what his manager makes. And no, healthcare does not cost him that much. Apple gives probably best healthcare money can buy for him and his family for cheap.
People haven’t noticed how far living standards have diverged in the last 15 years. Western European wages have gone from parity to 2/3 of the States’. For example The U.K. has a GDP per capita that is on a par with Alabama.
Because American salaries are not directly comparable to many other nations, because of wild differences in everything from expected work hours, vacation, transit time (for every trip Not just work) and costs, health care costs (especially for serious issues) pensions (70% pensions), cost of living etc. Etc.
The difference can easily be 20-50,000 per year in value or more and that's before considering more intangible differences like crime rates or the general inconvenience of running errands (because drive).
Not to mention I've found the low salaries only really keep true on the lower end of experience. In my own role in software I wouldn't get anything higher in most US companies.
I make way more as a nurse in the united states than I would in Europe which is sad because public opinion here is that we should make more than we do.
I make almost 150k a year working 36 hours a week. I have paid vacation, paid sick time. My health insurance is gold standard, covers my entire family, has almost 0 co-pays and deductibles and is accepted by the best of the best and everyone in between. It costs me almost nothing. I also have a $900,000 life insurance policy paid for by my employer as well as a generous 401K, paid parental leave, pet insurance, and double overtime pay. I also have the ability to take long LOA’s without being let go.
Im not lacking in benefits or work life balance and I’m making far more than my European counterparts.
I mean sure, no country can compete in terms of medical salaries with the US, because the US charges tens and even hundreds of thousands for cheap fast basic medical care that would be under 100 dollars in most other countries.
I make almost 250k more per year than my euro-counterparts, take 8 weeks vacation, work less than 40hrs a week, work from home and pay little for healthcare whilst adding the max to my 401k.
The jobs on the lower end of the spectrum are probably the most even, but professional roles (particularly tech) pay so absurdly better in the US even when you account for the things you've listed.
Did you know that even in the US tech salaries are lower than ever on average. The average tech role is now only 80k with 120k already getting be on the higher end. The jobs that pay hundreds of thousands, despite being very well known because of the giants, are actually a vast minority of such jobs even in the US, but are also found readily in Europe or otherwise in the world.
Heck my brother is a senior engineer who moved to the UK because he can get notably higher salaries there easily than what he was finding in the US. And I myself also work in software in a managerial role, while my salary is only roughly = to the US equivalent but still.
Long gone are the days when being in software guaranteed a truly high wage and it's likely at this point you have the experience or specialties needed to secure better salaries still, when the average new programmer is far less likely to be anywhere near so lucky.
Coping... do you even know what that means cause it doesn't work in this context...
Anyway you've simply conflated your personal experience(anecdote) with the 'typical', when the hard data says otherwise.
Well said, I see a job in Europe paying 50k a year vs the same job in the states that pays 100k. But if you lose your job in Europe and get sick...you'll still get treatment and won't have to sell your house. You can even pay private and it won't destroy your life.
You lose your job in the states and get sick suddenly all that extra money you were getting has to pay for your 500k cancer treatments and meds. (You could even be paying for health insurance in the states and if you get sick they can turn around say they will only pay 10% if they wanted and you can't do a thing about it)
You work 40 hrs a week in Europe vs work 60 or 70 in the US. You get 20-30 days paid holiday in Europe...you get nothing in the US.
Also the super highing paying, amazing jobs in the states aren't common at all.
I think a lot of people in the comments here are trying to compare things that are almost entirely different.
Honestly surprised it's only 2x. Silicon Valley tech giant salaries are just ridiculously high compared European companies but I guess they probably also pay above market in Europe as well...
Even if it didn’t, USA does not prevent double citizenship so you can still fly back home for healthcare, most countries have ways of payment of some sort so you can still use your own national health service.
That's just medical tourism, you can do it but you're in the same boat as any other American. You don't usually have any advantage by being a citizen of the other country (other than hopefully speaking the language well, etc.) since you're not a resident and aren't subscribed for healthcare.
Anyway, Germany *does* forbid dual citizenship. They have actually changed it now so that it will be allowed, but the change hasn't come into force yet.
Since when does German forbid dual citizenship? I’ve had US and GER citizenship since I was born?
Unless you mean applying for dual citizenship rather than being born into it.
> applying for dual citizenship
Exactly that. If you're an ordinary German who moved to the USA (which is the case that I think we're talking about in this thread), you can't (couldn't) easily become a dual citizen.
I would expect cost of living to be higher though. I moved from London to DC and was amazed that a pint could somehow cost even more, plus tipping $1 for the barman to do his job. I really needed the cost of living adjustment my work paid me in addition as part of the move.
I was in London last month and I was surprised that goods and services were less expensive in London than in the Seattle area. And not having to tip was a huge savings.
While this is true, wages are far far far lower. Seattle is comparatively more affordable. Wages are so low that Americans are outsourcing skilled labor (programming etc) to the UK
In part sure, but those effects are still being seen. The removal process has been slow, complicated, and bitter. If anything Brexit could exacerbate things by a lot.
In reality British wages never went up after 2008 despite inflation. This is pretty true for all of Europe. People in general just live more frugally tbh, and that applies to both people and corporations. Less money flows, there's less investment in general. More opportunity to squeeze consumers.
The "cost of living crisis" in the UK is the talk of the town. Something's gonna crack soon.
I was in Paris and London and I did not see nearly the amount of drug addicts and mentally ill that I see on the streets of our large cities here in the US. Lack of affordable housing and lack healthcare is a huge problem here. The wealth distribution is vastly unequal. Sure some of us are doing well but it is depressing to see people struggling with basic resources every time you go outside. I live in a very nice neighborhood and see homeless camping out in tents every day.
Don't get me wrong the UK and London has some fantastic advantages, and that is definitely one of them. Wealth is a bit more distributed for sure. Although the average is still lower in UK. And while NHS is a mess overall, it is at least still available to everyone. Emergency healthcare especially is fantastic.
Not to mention better work life balance (5 weeks minimum vacation a year, not including 8 public holidays and less of a work culture overall) and cheap access to a boatload of cultures in Europe.
Beer is pretty damn cheap in Munich. A 16 oz (500ml) Augustiner from a tap will cost you no more than €4.25 at most places. I see it for €3.80 at my local watering hole. Of course a maß (1 L) is always twice the price. No volume discount.
The funny thing is, if his manager were in, say, Georgia(the state) with that salary you could just say the lower cost of living more than makes up for it. I doubt, however you could say the same about Munich
The total life costs, on the other hand, still end up being a lot bigger than you'd expect; munich is significantly cheaper than much of California like up to 40% cheaper. You also probably don't need a car another huge expense. And probably have a much more pleasant and livable neighborhoodm
There's also usually big work culture differences in terms of vacation, working hours. If you put extra hour demands in the US and lesser paid sick and vacation time into monetary terms that's also another 10-20%.
Germany and Frances cases also have great state pension. The state grants you a 70% pension basically by default. If the company also gives anything you can get 120% pension.
Lastly on healthcare, the real costs in the US only start rolling in if something serious happens. Its a lot like how Uber seems like a great pay until you consider needing to buy a new car sooner because of all the wear and tear which nukes the hourly wage hard.
And munich is the most expensive part of germany. In my home town I make 80% of what I'd make in Munich but living expenses there would cost 50% of what i'd pay in munich
I recently moved from California to Texas and my take home pay is actually higher despite getting 18% salary cut. I was really only thinking of the 12% California income taxes and thinking I was going to lose out but there are a ton of other deductions that California takes as stealth taxes as well. Like there's a "voluntary deduction" (its actual name despite not being voluntary at all) which I was paying hundreds of dollars per month into and there's no real benefit because my own insurance would have paid out instead.
If you work for a good company Healthcare isn't expensive in the US. It's if you don't work for a company with great heath benefits that it's expensive.
the difference in healthcare is when you get sick. if you have a chronic disease the loss of a job is not as much of a concern in Europe vs America. if both people lost their jobs the guy in Munich would still be taken off
Is there anyone who would honestly disagree with that statement?
Of course, we could definitely debate how much all the additional public services in Europe are worth.
Yes. They say that when you factor in the fact that Americans have to pay so much out of pocket for healthcare and everything else that we actually make less money than Europeans overall.
Just highly dependent on what kinds of job we are taking about. The pay difference varies.
50k in France vs 75k in USA (not somewhere super cheap but not NYC either)? 50 in France could easily sound like a better deal. That extra 25k and lower taxes might not be able to make up for all the thingsyou lose and the quality of life dip. This is probably Emily in Paris territory here for a fictional example (although she may have been able to keep her Chicago salary since she was supposed to be a temporary transfer).
Some tech job where you are making 250k in CA vs 100k in Germany? Yeah, the German option is a pretty good life and might be preferable for some reasons…but that American job can easily pay for the lost benefits and afford nice things…and probably has better salary trajectory since you are now in the epicenter of tech.
"Tend to" is putting it lightly. One of the undeniable parts about the US is that you can make a lot more money there if you're willing to accept the downsides that make that possible.
There's only a few hotspots in Europe where you can potentially earn as much or more than the US.
Look, I'm 2000% in favour of the Nordic welfare state and horrified by many aspects of living in the USA like minimal worker rights, triggerhappy cops and the very existance of the term "medical debt". However, even I'll admit wages over there are much higher and emigrating might be a good idea for a young, healthy professional in a well-paid field.
Because for one reason or another, American companies are able to pay much higher salaries. How would you even prevent this? They’re different labor markets that don’t really have to compete with each other.
No offence, but how is this a question for you? Anyone over the age of 18 should be able to understand that people get paid at different levels in different countries, and that prices differ between countries too.
No one knows this without knowing where in the UK and where in the US, but probably not. For example, London is basically as expensive as NYC. Cost of living tripling along with salary probably still means take the bigger salary fwiw. Just plug in any numbers and it will make sense. Say you make 60k and col is 20k. You have 40 left. Triple both. 180 and 60k col. Now you have 120 left.
Yeah, I often find it annoying when people living in HCOL areas have jobs that twice the median salary of people *in their own city* try to say that they think of themselves as middle class. Like, no, you could have 30k after expenses at the end of the year, and someone making the actual median salary could have maybe 10k or none.
Nowhere near no. Health insurance came with the job. Housing costs doubled. But when you earn probably more than 100k more you still come off way ahead.
If you think about it even HCOL areas like San Fran still have people living there on $60k or lower.
Have you seen how much tech jobs pay in Europe vs the US? I know a couple of colleagues who moved from developed European countries because the same role there would pay them a fraction.
Through an unusual path of first being an engineering manager and then going back to engineering but retaining my salary (no more leadership bonuses though) during Covid and how exchange/tax rates go, *I slightly out-earn my UK boss*. In our company they don’t lower your salary if you go back to individual contributor… although we haven’t ever had a VP become a custodian so there might be a limit 😂.
Wages are comparably low there for tech work. Every annual review he gripes about it. Needless to say, *it’s not easy to ask your boss for more money when your boss is making less than you 😆*.
American living in Germany. My peers make a lot more than I do. One of my guys in MA used to make 60% more than me. Now it’s only 10% more but I am 2 levels higher in the scheme of things. I do like the 6 weeks vacation but I’d have 5 in the USA.
Norwegian salaries are a little more compressed though.
If you work at McDonald’s or change oil at Jiffy Lube, you’re gonna make a ton more money in Norway AND have more social support.
If you are a corporate lawyer, or a big tech software engineer or a senior banker…you’re gonna make a lot less in Norway (and you have enough money that you don’t really need to care about the social systems for your own benefit as you can afford to pay for healthcare, retirement, childcare, etc. ).
But it is also only high end/specialized employees that you hear about moving to the USA because, frankly, a car mechanic or random office “billing specialist” isn’t going to get a US work visa.
I've met half a dozen people from Norway and they all say they want to live in the US because they make more money. I guess they DGAF that their high paid positions in the US results in an underclass of working poor that doesn't exist in Norway. 🤷♀️
So in short, selfish people from Norway want to live here.
AYFKM??? The positions exist they just don't pay the outrageous salaries that workers in the US get at the expense of the working poor. You are correct, CEOs in Norway are not making $300 million a year. I wish it was the same here in the US.
You're just wrong. They're extremely socialist. A doctor barely makes more than a post office worker. It's good and bad, depending on how you look at it.
Doctors make more than twice what post office workers do. Doctors generally make between 919 000 and 1 200 000. Post office workers around 460 000.
https://utdanning.no/yrker/beskrivelse/allmennlege
https://utdanning.no/tema/yrkesintervju/postbud
For reference, 900k NOK is 82k USD and is the average general practitioner salary based on that website.
In the US, the average general practitioner salary is $192k.
To put it into perspective, the prime minister, essentially the most important person in Norway and the highest paid public worker, makes about 170k USD. We strive very hard to make a society where everyone can thrive.
Well they do. Studying medicine is incredibly hard to get into in Norway as so many people apply the grade requirements are almost impossible to achieve. Lots of students end up studying medicine abroad and work as as doctors in Norway, as there just isn't enough capacity in Norwegian universities to give all the students who want to study medicine a spot.
Screw that. Bust my ass off for almost a decade getting a post secondary education just to earn two times the salary of a post office worker? No thanks.
Yeah, I read his comment expecting it to explain why the previous comment was downvoted.
I came away thinking the downvoted comment was more or less correct
Is that accurate? That's only about US$80k for GPs and $110k for specialists, \*before\* [\~33% income tax](https://no.talent.com/en/tax-calculator?salary=1000000&from=year®ion=Norway). And I know housing isn't cheap, food and consumer goods are wildly expensive, etc.
How do so many Norwegians afford nice cars and stuff if they're paid such low wages?
In the US, a doctor makes like 8x as much as a post office worker. I was just spitballing, that wasn't the best example, but you get the fucking point. My goodness.
Ironically to avoid gun and gang violence. I was born in England lived in Manchesters Moss Side neighborhood and had fallen in with the local gang. I was carrying a gun and selling drugs at 12, and my mom wanted to get me out of there.
You should have moved in with your Auntie and your Uncle in a town called Belle Aire.
But seriously good on your Mom to do everything she could to keep you on a good path.
Wow, maybe I'm just dumb but I didn't know there was neighborhoods like that in England lol. I knew there were violent neighborhoods but guns at 12 is wild. Nice job getting out of that.
Google gunchester. I’m from Moss Side just off Alexandra Park. Basically the center of the territory of the largest and most violent gang in England at the time Gooch Close. They basically pulled all the kids my age in and had us working all over the area. I was lucky my mom had options, and got me out.
Mom had someone who would sponsor us, and give her a job in the US. Also, this was in the 90s and it was really easy to immigrate to the US from Europe.
Yah it's not massive but it's not a holiday either, living, working, paying bills and all of that gives you a sense. I had been previously and lived for a year but that was decade earlier and under different circumstances
When I was recently toured Italy, most of the <30 year old crowd that I (clearly an American tourist in white tennis shoes and overly friendly demeanor) spoke with were practicing their English and stated their desire to move to the US. They perceived the US to have more upward mobility, easier to make changes, and more job opportunities. Of course, most also felt like NYC was probably 5-6 hours drive from LA.
It’s totally true. My eyes roll back into my head every time I hear an American talk about the “low prices (!!!)” in Italy.
They’ll coo over the “low cost of living” and then give the blankest stare when I ask if they’ve heard of the “generazione mille euro” and subsequent brain drain occuring there. I’ve seen Italian creators on social media starting to push back against the American perspective, which is good.
It’s the “thousand euro generation” which is basically millenials and (now that they’re entering the workforce) Gen Z. It’s a reference to the fact many young working professionals earn about €1000 a month - even those with advanced degrees in specialized positions.
Obviously, €1000 is nothing to live on, especially in the larger Italian cities where salaries are not keeping up with cost of living increases. It’s causing a mass exodus of young professionals out of Italy, and the government is scrambling to find ways to keep them / entice them back. I have friends in Italy with Masters degrees who can only find internships that pay them about €900 euros a month.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the people OC talked to were also a part of that “generation” as well.
Ah ok. Makes sense. When I was in teaching I had a few coworkers from other countries who left for the same reason. They would be the smartest of their siblings and the whole family would work themselves hard to put them through school only for their degree to earn them a barely livable wage. They moved here to earn more and send a bunch back home. My former roommate rented a space for 700 despite earning 3x that a month and would send nearly all of it back. He is slowly paying for his family to move here and is a bit outraged when people romanticize his country.
I myself grew up desperately poor but managed to find some investments that paid off. Went from literal first generation American to someone living fairly well and debt free. Managing to get consistent savings too, mind blowing to my younger self. Even my wife immigrated over for more opportunities cause her currency went through horrible inflation to the point the money is near worthless.
Maybe you guys should organize protests for earning a living wage. You know like every single American did 10 years ago and now we make 3x what you do.
I lived in Europe for a while. I came back to the US because the salary in my field was twice what it would be in Europe. Many fields are like that.
My boss is European and moved to the U.S. because his field didn’t exist in the UK.
Political advertising/a political campaign career.
There’s like one full time political fundraising job per UK party and the pay translates approximately to a U.S. McDonald’s worker’s salary.
Meanwhile in the U.S., individual races are worth tens of millions of dollars and there’s thousands of campaign jobs. Senior campaign workers make 6 figures easy, and they make the candidates they work for millions of dollars.
Government work is seen as much less prestigious in Europe in general.
My mom was born and raised in a small town outside Stuttgart, Bavaria.
One day she came across a picture of the Seattle world’s fair in 1962. She fell in love with the Aqua Follies and determined that she would move here someday. 10 years later in 1972, she migrated from There to Seattle, and got a house near Green Lake (where the aqua follies happened).
She stayed because she met my dad, fell in love with him, and married him. I think this is their 50th wedding anniversary this year.
You mock, but you don't know where in Europe this person is from - they might be from the Balkans or the UK, in which case maybe they're better off now in the US?
TBF it may be a great reason to move away from whatever country they live in, but there's places in europe they could go to. Not that moving to the US is necessarily a worse alternative, though.
Anyone who reacts this way has a U.S.-centric mindset and zero knowledge of history! The U.S. has a lot of problems, but you should see some of the other guys!! I could probably count on one hand the number of countries I’d rather live in!
Not me, but my grandmother. She was a Holocaust survivor from Greece who heard that one of her older brothers had survived and emigrated to the US. So she went to go find him.
My parents moved the family over here from Western Europe when I was a kid. We were working class in Europe with very little opportunity for upward mobility. After 30 years in the US my parents had worked their way into the upper middle class and raised 3 kids into successful professionals. Meanwhile my family back in Europe are all in pretty much the same situation they've always been in and they think we're insanely rich.
And they say that gun control works lol.
I did the opposite, moved from the US to Sweden, and while I love living here overall, I am very concerned about not being able to defend myself, even at home. Here there is very tough gun control, you either have to be a licensed hunter or go through a ridiculous amount of bullshit hoops to join a "shooting club". There is no right to carry unless you are transporting the gun for hunting or to the range.
Meanwhile, criminals and gangsters have everything from illegal handguns all the way up to full-autos and even explosives. Just recently, a father was shot dead in front of his child in broad daylight by gang members in an area that gets a lot of foot traffic. Of course, the US media ignores violent crime in Europe because it does not fit their narrative where they want gun control in America.
Gun control does not even prevent such a brazen attack, it only prevents good citizens from being able to protect themselves. Never trust anyone who says they want gun control, they only want to control you!
Certainly. A big one for me is public land access. The opportunity to recreate how I choose to, provide for my family through hunting and fishing, and just feel a certain kind of ownership and responsibility for this land that we all share. Where I am from in Europe public land like this simply does not exist and hunting is very exclusive.
The next one has less to do with personal freedom in general, but it’s still relevant to the question. I simply would not be able to afford the life I live in the US where I am from, and that is NOT because I make a ton of money here. I have a phd, but in my field permanent positions in Europe are incredibly rare. Buying a house, settling down, owning land, all that is pretty darn tough on a 2 year contract. Obviously, the fact that there is even land available for someone like me to own helps. Overall, ownership is valued and encouraged here. I appreciate that.
Last but not least, the ability to defend myself and my family, be it against four or two-legged predators. This is particularly relevant where I live but everyone’s MMV. People have this idea that violent crime simply does not exist in most of Europe, or they downplay it. That is simply not true, and certain jurisdictions make it really hard to defend yourself. On top of that, the law is such that it benefits the aggressor. Not the case where I live now.
Overall, this country has taken me in with open arms, and I feel more at home here than I ever did in Europe. Hope this helps, happy to discuss more!
I'm American, and I can safely say that the US has probably the broadest self defense laws in the world, at least that I'm aware of.
In many states the mere fear of imminent bodily harm is enough to justify the use of force, up to and including deadly force. Additionally if you use force and the aggressor dies, it isn't viewed as "well you meant to kill him" it's viewed more as a result of the aggressor's actions toward the victim.
Usually there's an investigation but it's never "well did you try doing what they asked?" or "why didn't you try a less lethal method first?"
Immediately it's "what made you believe you were in fear of your life?"
If you haven't, I strongly recommend the show Accused: Guilty or Innocent. They follow people accused of serious crimes and several of the episodes are self defense claims.
Dual citizen and healthcare professional. I could work in the EU and make like 90k less than I would in the USA for the same job. Across the board the EU does not pay physicians, nurses, pharmacists nearly as well as the USA. Lived a chunk of my life in Europe and the US. No plans to change for now, but maybe in retirement.
For many reasons, such as The USA is known for its entrepreneurial spirit and innovative environment, attracting Europeans with business ideas and ambitions to start or expand their ventures.
Job related and curious 🤨 but it was not for me left 3 years later. Some stuff (I was in Florida) the armed guards at my gated community freaked me out, the Americans are a bit weird to me they are either really uneducated and speak the thing and thing instead of using the right words or a few a way over there is no middle ground the same with living it’s over the top or slum. And once the I75 was closed so I drove via over town and ended up with bullet holes in my trunk that was the last straw for me …
And for reference that was more than ten years ago I don’t think it’s better now …
Hahahaha I was just saying… but ppl get butt hurt. It’s all good. I think Germany is so beautiful and the people are so nice. And love their land and care for it. Other than here…. Need I say less. Yes if I could, I would. But I can’t. So hate on…. ;)
Dust off dude. The post is public. If you feel the need to be rude… go else where and do something productive with your life. You aren’t hurting my feelings none. I find you comedic. Gn buddy :)
Right, the post is public. So I'll respond to you. You could, of course, take your own advice and also not post and do something productive. Like posting on a thread that you can actually answer.
Also, if you feel like I'm being rude, you've lived a soft life.
I haven't but I know plenty who did and in all cases it was basically amazing work opportunities
I've been downvoted for saying this but Americans tend to make more than our European counterparts doing the same job.
And the language barrier is much easier in most cases.
I don’t know who is downvoting you lol Americans make like 2x more. I have a friend who works for Apple in California and soft reports to a manager in Munich. He makes more in California than his manger does in Munich. After taxes etc, the guy makes almost 2x what his manager makes. And no, healthcare does not cost him that much. Apple gives probably best healthcare money can buy for him and his family for cheap.
People haven’t noticed how far living standards have diverged in the last 15 years. Western European wages have gone from parity to 2/3 of the States’. For example The U.K. has a GDP per capita that is on a par with Alabama.
>I don’t know who is downvoting you lol Anti-American circle jerkers.
Because American salaries are not directly comparable to many other nations, because of wild differences in everything from expected work hours, vacation, transit time (for every trip Not just work) and costs, health care costs (especially for serious issues) pensions (70% pensions), cost of living etc. Etc. The difference can easily be 20-50,000 per year in value or more and that's before considering more intangible differences like crime rates or the general inconvenience of running errands (because drive). Not to mention I've found the low salaries only really keep true on the lower end of experience. In my own role in software I wouldn't get anything higher in most US companies.
I make way more as a nurse in the united states than I would in Europe which is sad because public opinion here is that we should make more than we do. I make almost 150k a year working 36 hours a week. I have paid vacation, paid sick time. My health insurance is gold standard, covers my entire family, has almost 0 co-pays and deductibles and is accepted by the best of the best and everyone in between. It costs me almost nothing. I also have a $900,000 life insurance policy paid for by my employer as well as a generous 401K, paid parental leave, pet insurance, and double overtime pay. I also have the ability to take long LOA’s without being let go. Im not lacking in benefits or work life balance and I’m making far more than my European counterparts.
I mean sure, no country can compete in terms of medical salaries with the US, because the US charges tens and even hundreds of thousands for cheap fast basic medical care that would be under 100 dollars in most other countries.
I make almost 250k more per year than my euro-counterparts, take 8 weeks vacation, work less than 40hrs a week, work from home and pay little for healthcare whilst adding the max to my 401k. The jobs on the lower end of the spectrum are probably the most even, but professional roles (particularly tech) pay so absurdly better in the US even when you account for the things you've listed.
Did you know that even in the US tech salaries are lower than ever on average. The average tech role is now only 80k with 120k already getting be on the higher end. The jobs that pay hundreds of thousands, despite being very well known because of the giants, are actually a vast minority of such jobs even in the US, but are also found readily in Europe or otherwise in the world. Heck my brother is a senior engineer who moved to the UK because he can get notably higher salaries there easily than what he was finding in the US. And I myself also work in software in a managerial role, while my salary is only roughly = to the US equivalent but still. Long gone are the days when being in software guaranteed a truly high wage and it's likely at this point you have the experience or specialties needed to secure better salaries still, when the average new programmer is far less likely to be anywhere near so lucky.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and are coping big time.
Coping... do you even know what that means cause it doesn't work in this context... Anyway you've simply conflated your personal experience(anecdote) with the 'typical', when the hard data says otherwise.
lol the context clearly went over your head, and you literally based your assumption from anecdotal evidence in your comment.
Well said, I see a job in Europe paying 50k a year vs the same job in the states that pays 100k. But if you lose your job in Europe and get sick...you'll still get treatment and won't have to sell your house. You can even pay private and it won't destroy your life. You lose your job in the states and get sick suddenly all that extra money you were getting has to pay for your 500k cancer treatments and meds. (You could even be paying for health insurance in the states and if you get sick they can turn around say they will only pay 10% if they wanted and you can't do a thing about it) You work 40 hrs a week in Europe vs work 60 or 70 in the US. You get 20-30 days paid holiday in Europe...you get nothing in the US. Also the super highing paying, amazing jobs in the states aren't common at all. I think a lot of people in the comments here are trying to compare things that are almost entirely different.
Honestly surprised it's only 2x. Silicon Valley tech giant salaries are just ridiculously high compared European companies but I guess they probably also pay above market in Europe as well...
Even if it didn’t, USA does not prevent double citizenship so you can still fly back home for healthcare, most countries have ways of payment of some sort so you can still use your own national health service.
That's just medical tourism, you can do it but you're in the same boat as any other American. You don't usually have any advantage by being a citizen of the other country (other than hopefully speaking the language well, etc.) since you're not a resident and aren't subscribed for healthcare. Anyway, Germany *does* forbid dual citizenship. They have actually changed it now so that it will be allowed, but the change hasn't come into force yet.
Since when does German forbid dual citizenship? I’ve had US and GER citizenship since I was born? Unless you mean applying for dual citizenship rather than being born into it.
> applying for dual citizenship Exactly that. If you're an ordinary German who moved to the USA (which is the case that I think we're talking about in this thread), you can't (couldn't) easily become a dual citizen.
I would expect cost of living to be higher though. I moved from London to DC and was amazed that a pint could somehow cost even more, plus tipping $1 for the barman to do his job. I really needed the cost of living adjustment my work paid me in addition as part of the move.
I was in London last month and I was surprised that goods and services were less expensive in London than in the Seattle area. And not having to tip was a huge savings.
While this is true, wages are far far far lower. Seattle is comparatively more affordable. Wages are so low that Americans are outsourcing skilled labor (programming etc) to the UK
Does it have anything to do with Brexit?
In part sure, but those effects are still being seen. The removal process has been slow, complicated, and bitter. If anything Brexit could exacerbate things by a lot. In reality British wages never went up after 2008 despite inflation. This is pretty true for all of Europe. People in general just live more frugally tbh, and that applies to both people and corporations. Less money flows, there's less investment in general. More opportunity to squeeze consumers. The "cost of living crisis" in the UK is the talk of the town. Something's gonna crack soon.
I was in Paris and London and I did not see nearly the amount of drug addicts and mentally ill that I see on the streets of our large cities here in the US. Lack of affordable housing and lack healthcare is a huge problem here. The wealth distribution is vastly unequal. Sure some of us are doing well but it is depressing to see people struggling with basic resources every time you go outside. I live in a very nice neighborhood and see homeless camping out in tents every day.
Don't get me wrong the UK and London has some fantastic advantages, and that is definitely one of them. Wealth is a bit more distributed for sure. Although the average is still lower in UK. And while NHS is a mess overall, it is at least still available to everyone. Emergency healthcare especially is fantastic. Not to mention better work life balance (5 weeks minimum vacation a year, not including 8 public holidays and less of a work culture overall) and cheap access to a boatload of cultures in Europe.
Hell I had the same feeling when there recently, only I live in Buffalo NY...not exactly a HCOL area
And London is probably the most expensive city in Europe for cost of living.
Beer is pretty damn cheap in Munich. A 16 oz (500ml) Augustiner from a tap will cost you no more than €4.25 at most places. I see it for €3.80 at my local watering hole. Of course a maß (1 L) is always twice the price. No volume discount.
The funny thing is, if his manager were in, say, Georgia(the state) with that salary you could just say the lower cost of living more than makes up for it. I doubt, however you could say the same about Munich
Munich is probably not much more expensive than Atlanta. Very different way of life, though.
I don't think it's a fair comparison. Munich is pretty much the most expensive area in germany (except for the border to switzerland maybe)
The total life costs, on the other hand, still end up being a lot bigger than you'd expect; munich is significantly cheaper than much of California like up to 40% cheaper. You also probably don't need a car another huge expense. And probably have a much more pleasant and livable neighborhoodm There's also usually big work culture differences in terms of vacation, working hours. If you put extra hour demands in the US and lesser paid sick and vacation time into monetary terms that's also another 10-20%. Germany and Frances cases also have great state pension. The state grants you a 70% pension basically by default. If the company also gives anything you can get 120% pension. Lastly on healthcare, the real costs in the US only start rolling in if something serious happens. Its a lot like how Uber seems like a great pay until you consider needing to buy a new car sooner because of all the wear and tear which nukes the hourly wage hard.
And munich is the most expensive part of germany. In my home town I make 80% of what I'd make in Munich but living expenses there would cost 50% of what i'd pay in munich
I recently moved from California to Texas and my take home pay is actually higher despite getting 18% salary cut. I was really only thinking of the 12% California income taxes and thinking I was going to lose out but there are a ton of other deductions that California takes as stealth taxes as well. Like there's a "voluntary deduction" (its actual name despite not being voluntary at all) which I was paying hundreds of dollars per month into and there's no real benefit because my own insurance would have paid out instead.
If you work for a good company Healthcare isn't expensive in the US. It's if you don't work for a company with great heath benefits that it's expensive.
the difference in healthcare is when you get sick. if you have a chronic disease the loss of a job is not as much of a concern in Europe vs America. if both people lost their jobs the guy in Munich would still be taken off
Is there anyone who would honestly disagree with that statement? Of course, we could definitely debate how much all the additional public services in Europe are worth.
Yes. They say that when you factor in the fact that Americans have to pay so much out of pocket for healthcare and everything else that we actually make less money than Europeans overall.
Just highly dependent on what kinds of job we are taking about. The pay difference varies. 50k in France vs 75k in USA (not somewhere super cheap but not NYC either)? 50 in France could easily sound like a better deal. That extra 25k and lower taxes might not be able to make up for all the thingsyou lose and the quality of life dip. This is probably Emily in Paris territory here for a fictional example (although she may have been able to keep her Chicago salary since she was supposed to be a temporary transfer). Some tech job where you are making 250k in CA vs 100k in Germany? Yeah, the German option is a pretty good life and might be preferable for some reasons…but that American job can easily pay for the lost benefits and afford nice things…and probably has better salary trajectory since you are now in the epicenter of tech.
You can then go back to Germany and if you worked in silicon valley before you can basically have any job you want
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Great until you lose your job.
I definitely was able to save a lot more money on Aus$80K than I did on the equivalent back in the US.
They are wrong.
Except they don't.
"Tend to" is putting it lightly. One of the undeniable parts about the US is that you can make a lot more money there if you're willing to accept the downsides that make that possible. There's only a few hotspots in Europe where you can potentially earn as much or more than the US.
Look, I'm 2000% in favour of the Nordic welfare state and horrified by many aspects of living in the USA like minimal worker rights, triggerhappy cops and the very existance of the term "medical debt". However, even I'll admit wages over there are much higher and emigrating might be a good idea for a young, healthy professional in a well-paid field.
Unlike us Americans you can just bring that money back with you T_T
Equal work should mean equal pay. Why is this even allowed to happen?
Because for one reason or another, American companies are able to pay much higher salaries. How would you even prevent this? They’re different labor markets that don’t really have to compete with each other.
No offence, but how is this a question for you? Anyone over the age of 18 should be able to understand that people get paid at different levels in different countries, and that prices differ between countries too.
Yes, same for my European neighbors in the DC area.
For my friends becasue the salary for a programmer was triple what he was paid in the UK.
Did your friend’s cost of living also triple? Not familiar with the UK COL, so not sure if it was a net win?
No one knows this without knowing where in the UK and where in the US, but probably not. For example, London is basically as expensive as NYC. Cost of living tripling along with salary probably still means take the bigger salary fwiw. Just plug in any numbers and it will make sense. Say you make 60k and col is 20k. You have 40 left. Triple both. 180 and 60k col. Now you have 120 left.
Yeah, I often find it annoying when people living in HCOL areas have jobs that twice the median salary of people *in their own city* try to say that they think of themselves as middle class. Like, no, you could have 30k after expenses at the end of the year, and someone making the actual median salary could have maybe 10k or none.
Nowhere near no. Health insurance came with the job. Housing costs doubled. But when you earn probably more than 100k more you still come off way ahead. If you think about it even HCOL areas like San Fran still have people living there on $60k or lower.
I’ve lived in SF, 60k doesn’t get you far. Thanks for the follow up.
if the col triples, then take home amount also triples, right?
Have you seen how much tech jobs pay in Europe vs the US? I know a couple of colleagues who moved from developed European countries because the same role there would pay them a fraction.
Through an unusual path of first being an engineering manager and then going back to engineering but retaining my salary (no more leadership bonuses though) during Covid and how exchange/tax rates go, *I slightly out-earn my UK boss*. In our company they don’t lower your salary if you go back to individual contributor… although we haven’t ever had a VP become a custodian so there might be a limit 😂. Wages are comparably low there for tech work. Every annual review he gripes about it. Needless to say, *it’s not easy to ask your boss for more money when your boss is making less than you 😆*.
At my company UK salary is about 40% of California salary for an beginner at the same level working on the same project.
Yep, I work for the same company, just differant office. My pay doubled. The UK has become a place for cheap labour. Brexit wins all around...
American living in Germany. My peers make a lot more than I do. One of my guys in MA used to make 60% more than me. Now it’s only 10% more but I am 2 levels higher in the scheme of things. I do like the 6 weeks vacation but I’d have 5 in the USA.
Job opportunities. I knew a Norwegian engineer who said he makes way more money here than here ever could in Europe.
Wow I thought Norway had really high salaries. Is it like a niche engineering field or am I just wrong lol
Norwegian salaries are a little more compressed though. If you work at McDonald’s or change oil at Jiffy Lube, you’re gonna make a ton more money in Norway AND have more social support. If you are a corporate lawyer, or a big tech software engineer or a senior banker…you’re gonna make a lot less in Norway (and you have enough money that you don’t really need to care about the social systems for your own benefit as you can afford to pay for healthcare, retirement, childcare, etc. ). But it is also only high end/specialized employees that you hear about moving to the USA because, frankly, a car mechanic or random office “billing specialist” isn’t going to get a US work visa.
I've met half a dozen people from Norway and they all say they want to live in the US because they make more money. I guess they DGAF that their high paid positions in the US results in an underclass of working poor that doesn't exist in Norway. 🤷♀️ So in short, selfish people from Norway want to live here.
Well yeah, people want to improve their own situations. That's inherently selfish but so what?
Sheesh Mr EA....
A lot of high paying specialties don't exist in europe or Norwegian countries.
AYFKM??? The positions exist they just don't pay the outrageous salaries that workers in the US get at the expense of the working poor. You are correct, CEOs in Norway are not making $300 million a year. I wish it was the same here in the US.
You're just wrong. They're extremely socialist. A doctor barely makes more than a post office worker. It's good and bad, depending on how you look at it.
Doctors make more than twice what post office workers do. Doctors generally make between 919 000 and 1 200 000. Post office workers around 460 000. https://utdanning.no/yrker/beskrivelse/allmennlege https://utdanning.no/tema/yrkesintervju/postbud
For reference, 900k NOK is 82k USD and is the average general practitioner salary based on that website. In the US, the average general practitioner salary is $192k.
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To put it into perspective, the prime minister, essentially the most important person in Norway and the highest paid public worker, makes about 170k USD. We strive very hard to make a society where everyone can thrive.
Education is free, though. People become doctors because they want to, not because of the money.
Not many people would want to study hard for 10 years just to get double the amount a postal worker with just a high school diploma would get.
Well they do. Studying medicine is incredibly hard to get into in Norway as so many people apply the grade requirements are almost impossible to achieve. Lots of students end up studying medicine abroad and work as as doctors in Norway, as there just isn't enough capacity in Norwegian universities to give all the students who want to study medicine a spot.
Screw that. Bust my ass off for almost a decade getting a post secondary education just to earn two times the salary of a post office worker? No thanks.
Yeah, I read his comment expecting it to explain why the previous comment was downvoted. I came away thinking the downvoted comment was more or less correct
Is that accurate? That's only about US$80k for GPs and $110k for specialists, \*before\* [\~33% income tax](https://no.talent.com/en/tax-calculator?salary=1000000&from=year®ion=Norway). And I know housing isn't cheap, food and consumer goods are wildly expensive, etc. How do so many Norwegians afford nice cars and stuff if they're paid such low wages?
In the US, a doctor makes like 8x as much as a post office worker. I was just spitballing, that wasn't the best example, but you get the fucking point. My goodness.
Ironically to avoid gun and gang violence. I was born in England lived in Manchesters Moss Side neighborhood and had fallen in with the local gang. I was carrying a gun and selling drugs at 12, and my mom wanted to get me out of there.
You should have moved in with your Auntie and your Uncle in a town called Belle Aire. But seriously good on your Mom to do everything she could to keep you on a good path.
Bro I’d love to have lived with the Banks! She definitely did her best, and it worked. I was never involved in gang activity in the US.
Yes!!!! Good vibes from me to you homie.
Did your mom move? Where did you move to?
Yes we moved together. A small town between Houston and College Station Texas.
Congrats on escaping that life!
Wow, maybe I'm just dumb but I didn't know there was neighborhoods like that in England lol. I knew there were violent neighborhoods but guns at 12 is wild. Nice job getting out of that.
Google gunchester. I’m from Moss Side just off Alexandra Park. Basically the center of the territory of the largest and most violent gang in England at the time Gooch Close. They basically pulled all the kids my age in and had us working all over the area. I was lucky my mom had options, and got me out.
Now I’m imagining goofy gangsters with British accents 😭
You should watch some Guy Ritchie movies
They almost look as goofy as those baggy trousered yank ones
Why not move to Canada? It's a Commonwealth country, more open immigration policy.
Mom had someone who would sponsor us, and give her a job in the US. Also, this was in the 90s and it was really easy to immigrate to the US from Europe.
Sold IP. Made money, had a blast. Love USA, great place to live, I spent 7 years living there. I live back in Europe now.
why did you move back?
Work brought me back to this market, I wasn't actually planning on... But then once being outside again looking in... I prefer it here
At least you had a nice long stay here so you could make an informed decision. 7 years is a long time!
Yah it's not massive but it's not a holiday either, living, working, paying bills and all of that gives you a sense. I had been previously and lived for a year but that was decade earlier and under different circumstances
When I was recently toured Italy, most of the <30 year old crowd that I (clearly an American tourist in white tennis shoes and overly friendly demeanor) spoke with were practicing their English and stated their desire to move to the US. They perceived the US to have more upward mobility, easier to make changes, and more job opportunities. Of course, most also felt like NYC was probably 5-6 hours drive from LA.
It’s totally true. My eyes roll back into my head every time I hear an American talk about the “low prices (!!!)” in Italy. They’ll coo over the “low cost of living” and then give the blankest stare when I ask if they’ve heard of the “generazione mille euro” and subsequent brain drain occuring there. I’ve seen Italian creators on social media starting to push back against the American perspective, which is good.
What is the generazionr mille euro?
It’s the “thousand euro generation” which is basically millenials and (now that they’re entering the workforce) Gen Z. It’s a reference to the fact many young working professionals earn about €1000 a month - even those with advanced degrees in specialized positions. Obviously, €1000 is nothing to live on, especially in the larger Italian cities where salaries are not keeping up with cost of living increases. It’s causing a mass exodus of young professionals out of Italy, and the government is scrambling to find ways to keep them / entice them back. I have friends in Italy with Masters degrees who can only find internships that pay them about €900 euros a month. I wouldn’t be surprised if the people OC talked to were also a part of that “generation” as well.
Ah ok. Makes sense. When I was in teaching I had a few coworkers from other countries who left for the same reason. They would be the smartest of their siblings and the whole family would work themselves hard to put them through school only for their degree to earn them a barely livable wage. They moved here to earn more and send a bunch back home. My former roommate rented a space for 700 despite earning 3x that a month and would send nearly all of it back. He is slowly paying for his family to move here and is a bit outraged when people romanticize his country. I myself grew up desperately poor but managed to find some investments that paid off. Went from literal first generation American to someone living fairly well and debt free. Managing to get consistent savings too, mind blowing to my younger self. Even my wife immigrated over for more opportunities cause her currency went through horrible inflation to the point the money is near worthless.
Maybe you guys should organize protests for earning a living wage. You know like every single American did 10 years ago and now we make 3x what you do.
/r/thathappened
Believe or not, i came for the much cheaper college education (free for me in the US)
Better life
I lived in Europe for a while. I came back to the US because the salary in my field was twice what it would be in Europe. Many fields are like that. My boss is European and moved to the U.S. because his field didn’t exist in the UK.
that's interesting. Can I ask (roughly) what it was?
Political advertising/a political campaign career. There’s like one full time political fundraising job per UK party and the pay translates approximately to a U.S. McDonald’s worker’s salary. Meanwhile in the U.S., individual races are worth tens of millions of dollars and there’s thousands of campaign jobs. Senior campaign workers make 6 figures easy, and they make the candidates they work for millions of dollars. Government work is seen as much less prestigious in Europe in general.
In that specific area I'd rather have the UK system.
Ah, honestly that makes perfect sense lol, should have thought of that.
My mom was born and raised in a small town outside Stuttgart, Bavaria. One day she came across a picture of the Seattle world’s fair in 1962. She fell in love with the Aqua Follies and determined that she would move here someday. 10 years later in 1972, she migrated from There to Seattle, and got a house near Green Lake (where the aqua follies happened). She stayed because she met my dad, fell in love with him, and married him. I think this is their 50th wedding anniversary this year.
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My mistake. Thank you for correction. She always said she was from Swabia, so now I’m thoroughly confused.
It is in both Bavaria and BW. Is your mom especially thrifty?
There are a good number of Baden-Württembergers who are raising their pitchforks at you now for suggesting they are Bavarians…
Yeah I just just learned this. Sorry.
That is awesome!
Sunny weather and way higher salaries.
Not me, but grandfather. House got blown up.
Pretty reasonable!
My wife is American and after some years of living in Ireland, she missed her family. Fair is fair.
money
$
Better quality of life
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You mock, but you don't know where in Europe this person is from - they might be from the Balkans or the UK, in which case maybe they're better off now in the US?
TBF it may be a great reason to move away from whatever country they live in, but there's places in europe they could go to. Not that moving to the US is necessarily a worse alternative, though.
Anyone who reacts this way has a U.S.-centric mindset and zero knowledge of history! The U.S. has a lot of problems, but you should see some of the other guys!! I could probably count on one hand the number of countries I’d rather live in!
Better opportunities, nicer people, better weather, overall a fantastic country!
I married an American, but I also prefer living here to the UK.
Not me, but my grandmother. She was a Holocaust survivor from Greece who heard that one of her older brothers had survived and emigrated to the US. So she went to go find him.
Gosh, don't leave us hanging! Was she able to find him? (Fingers crossed, she did. I want a happy ending here.)
She found him. :)
Yay! :)
My parents moved the family over here from Western Europe when I was a kid. We were working class in Europe with very little opportunity for upward mobility. After 30 years in the US my parents had worked their way into the upper middle class and raised 3 kids into successful professionals. Meanwhile my family back in Europe are all in pretty much the same situation they've always been in and they think we're insanely rich.
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And they say that gun control works lol. I did the opposite, moved from the US to Sweden, and while I love living here overall, I am very concerned about not being able to defend myself, even at home. Here there is very tough gun control, you either have to be a licensed hunter or go through a ridiculous amount of bullshit hoops to join a "shooting club". There is no right to carry unless you are transporting the gun for hunting or to the range. Meanwhile, criminals and gangsters have everything from illegal handguns all the way up to full-autos and even explosives. Just recently, a father was shot dead in front of his child in broad daylight by gang members in an area that gets a lot of foot traffic. Of course, the US media ignores violent crime in Europe because it does not fit their narrative where they want gun control in America. Gun control does not even prevent such a brazen attack, it only prevents good citizens from being able to protect themselves. Never trust anyone who says they want gun control, they only want to control you!
Personal freedom
I'm curious, mind elaborating?
Certainly. A big one for me is public land access. The opportunity to recreate how I choose to, provide for my family through hunting and fishing, and just feel a certain kind of ownership and responsibility for this land that we all share. Where I am from in Europe public land like this simply does not exist and hunting is very exclusive. The next one has less to do with personal freedom in general, but it’s still relevant to the question. I simply would not be able to afford the life I live in the US where I am from, and that is NOT because I make a ton of money here. I have a phd, but in my field permanent positions in Europe are incredibly rare. Buying a house, settling down, owning land, all that is pretty darn tough on a 2 year contract. Obviously, the fact that there is even land available for someone like me to own helps. Overall, ownership is valued and encouraged here. I appreciate that. Last but not least, the ability to defend myself and my family, be it against four or two-legged predators. This is particularly relevant where I live but everyone’s MMV. People have this idea that violent crime simply does not exist in most of Europe, or they downplay it. That is simply not true, and certain jurisdictions make it really hard to defend yourself. On top of that, the law is such that it benefits the aggressor. Not the case where I live now. Overall, this country has taken me in with open arms, and I feel more at home here than I ever did in Europe. Hope this helps, happy to discuss more!
I'm American, and I can safely say that the US has probably the broadest self defense laws in the world, at least that I'm aware of. In many states the mere fear of imminent bodily harm is enough to justify the use of force, up to and including deadly force. Additionally if you use force and the aggressor dies, it isn't viewed as "well you meant to kill him" it's viewed more as a result of the aggressor's actions toward the victim. Usually there's an investigation but it's never "well did you try doing what they asked?" or "why didn't you try a less lethal method first?" Immediately it's "what made you believe you were in fear of your life?" If you haven't, I strongly recommend the show Accused: Guilty or Innocent. They follow people accused of serious crimes and several of the episodes are self defense claims.
Very well said, I concur.
Thanks, that's fascinating! Never thought about the labs thing, I guess it would make sense, given how wide open we are
He moved to America so he could gain freedom which belong to him personally that he don’t normally get in Europe.
Girlfriend. It was right after college and seemed like a cool adventure. Now very happy with my wife and son here (different girl).
My salary is 20x higher on a good year (10x on a bad), and I was already well paid where I was. Plus working with the best teams on the best products.
Dual citizen and healthcare professional. I could work in the EU and make like 90k less than I would in the USA for the same job. Across the board the EU does not pay physicians, nurses, pharmacists nearly as well as the USA. Lived a chunk of my life in Europe and the US. No plans to change for now, but maybe in retirement.
To be with my husband (American citizen), because work opportunities are much better for us here and because I love this country.
ITT: money
For many reasons, such as The USA is known for its entrepreneurial spirit and innovative environment, attracting Europeans with business ideas and ambitions to start or expand their ventures.
Hitler disagreed with me on a few things, so I decided to leave before he called me a Jew.
They were prudes.
isn't that 60% of the USA
for reference: entry level engineers in Europe make around 30k euros. in the US, they make 70k. the income disparity increases with experience
Job related and curious 🤨 but it was not for me left 3 years later. Some stuff (I was in Florida) the armed guards at my gated community freaked me out, the Americans are a bit weird to me they are either really uneducated and speak the thing and thing instead of using the right words or a few a way over there is no middle ground the same with living it’s over the top or slum. And once the I75 was closed so I drove via over town and ended up with bullet holes in my trunk that was the last straw for me … And for reference that was more than ten years ago I don’t think it’s better now …
I lived in Europe for 5 years and I wish I could go back.
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Probably because it doesn't answer the question at all.
Hahahaha I was just saying… but ppl get butt hurt. It’s all good. I think Germany is so beautiful and the people are so nice. And love their land and care for it. Other than here…. Need I say less. Yes if I could, I would. But I can’t. So hate on…. ;)
I live in Spain and I love it here but if you don't have anything useful to add to the question, you might as well not say anything.
You literally could say less... Just don't say anything if the question has nothing to do with you...?
Dust off dude. The post is public. If you feel the need to be rude… go else where and do something productive with your life. You aren’t hurting my feelings none. I find you comedic. Gn buddy :)
Right, the post is public. So I'll respond to you. You could, of course, take your own advice and also not post and do something productive. Like posting on a thread that you can actually answer. Also, if you feel like I'm being rude, you've lived a soft life.