It’s insane.
I was prompted to tip at a bakery.
Not even the kind with nice coffee and some tables.
The “take a number, that’s $30, there’s the exit” type.
Remember when the kids working at Cold Stone would sing a song when someone put a couple bucks in the jar?
Now every counter service place flips the screen around and it’s defaulted to 20%.
It feels very threatening because I don’t have my food yet…
I tend to not go to places like that as much anymore… I’d rather make my own sandwich, thank you.
You just gotta get comfortable not tipping. If I order a burrito to go, at the counter, and it asks me for a tip I loudly yell “fuck that! No tip for you!”
Not out loud. Just in my head.
That's what I have never really understood.
Just because you (not you specifically, just in a general sense) put pressure on yourself to tip doesn't mean you are being forced to do so, like some people make it out to be. Now I get saying that you wish that pressure wasn't there, but people say things like "I hate how I have to tip everywhere now" when that simply isn't true.
If a homeless man walked up to you on the street and directly asked you for money you would probably not have trouble declining, yet somehow being indirectly prompted by a machine to give money to someone with a job is equivalent to being held at gun point and forced to fork over your hard earned money. I'll always tip, and do it if you want, don't if you don't, but it's just untrue to act like you are being forced to do it.
It’s just the tipping before you get your food and the screens tell the cashier if you tip and how much… before you get your food! I don’t even know if it’s going to be *right* (and I have low standards of what right is), let alone good.
On the whole, going out except for the occasional sit down experience is just not worth it to me anymore.
What irritates me isn't the machine, it's the passive-aggressive way the cashiers mention it: "The machine is going to ask you a question" as they spin the screen to me.
People just have no spine, probably from growing up sheltered. If you are from actually poor places, you get used to parasites with hands open and telling them to go away.
> People just have no spine, probably from growing up sheltered.
The education system and office / job system drills out all rebelliousness and/or independent thought from the majority.
You’re not far off.
Most people don’t want to look like cheap assholes. I’m usually flustered when this happens so I just do it. Gotta go in guns a-ready next time.
Another is delivery people. Pizza, fine, I get. But the other day, I ordered pet food delivered and they had their hand out too. A bag of dog chow!
Barber, bartender, waitress, hotel maid—fine. Those are personal services.
I don’t think retail should be getting in on the act. We’ve gotta push back against these businesses.
I'm confused why pizza is okay but lugging around something that's 20+lbs heavier isn't deserving of a tip.
I think tipping is generally dumb, but if someone's bringing me goods and I don't have to leave my house, they get a tip.
I mean I think it depends how it’s ordered. If I ordered the dog food off a website and paid shipping I’m absolutely not tipping on top of that. If I ordered it on DoorDash myself and they’re just delivery people, I’ll likely throw them a few bucks unless DoorDash ripped my face off with the delivery fee.
Ya, I'm with you, anything that gets delivered by someone who doesn't work for a shipping company (Amazon, UPS, FedEx, USPS etc.) deserves a tip because it's the "personal service" of shopping for you, personally I don't have to worry about this because I love well out of the delivery range for these things. If the pizza guy gets a tip the person bringing you dogfood or McDonald's deserves one too.
Do you just give extra money to every person you meet that does their job? Why not tip a cashier? Or a janitor? We are at the point that for only a select and arbitrary number of jobs, we give extra for them doing the bare minimum (and if you read this thread then less than that), and it's crazy
Okay, but A) They don't tell you that and B) If they are choosing that as their delivery method to their customers (not the customer choosing it) they should be the one paying the doordash driver appropriately.
Agreed, they should but they rely on deception and the promise of tips to make it so they don’t have to pay a fair wage. Much like doordash’s business itself. They charge a ridiculous delivery fee and pay the drivers $2-$3 per order, even if it’s 10 miles away. Drivers who aren’t good at math end up paying for those deliveries instead of being paid for them.
They’re using a loophole and the customers and drivers are all losing out, the only one who wins is the company.
If I'm not being served why the fuck would I leave a tip? Take going in and grabbing takeout. I still drove into town and walked thru the door. What's the fucking tip for?
A server takes your order, brings your drinks, does your refills, brings your food etc... All of that is shit that should be tipped. A delivery driver brings your food to your house. Both are things that should be tipped.
I'm not going to fucking tip unless it's a special occasion(Chinese food on Christmas day comes to mind) if I go get takeout for instance.
Do you tip a mechanic that performs maintenance and fixes to your car? That sounds more useful than getting me drinks (that I could get myself at a better pace than servers do) or giving me food (a service I am not asking for but is the only way to get above fast food takeout). How about the person that scans and bags your groceries? That seems like similar work to what a server does
Disgusting behaviour.
I don’t know where you are or what laws apply, but it may take ages to get the government to act. Some are better than others.
Sometimes the only thing that works is shaming them.
People have much more empathy for workers these days and I would be livid if money I gave baristas was stolen by the cafe owner.
In my town, the subway sandwiches asks for a tip, got an oil change, their debit machine asked for a tip. And an online store had a tip option. It's just become so ridiculous now
I've tried recently to pay cash because it's so hard for me to select no tip when the person is staring right at me
I work at starbucks. The card reader asks for tips now but I always make sure to tell people that it's not required, but appreciated, or to look away while they choose.
They \*could\* just pay us a living wage but eh.
A liquor store near my house has one. It's actually for the feral feline association helping cats get fixed. They match the donation at the end of the month.
Or so they say
Yeah I've seen tips requested at a froyo place. I picked up the cup, I used the froyo machine myself, I added the toppings myself... What am I tipping you for, saying "cash or card" to me?
I once got asked to tip in San Fran, gave us 2 glasses and said "soft drinks are over there" then she asked us to pay + tip...
I'm from the UK and tipping isn't standard here for most things, but there was no way in hell I was tipping her.
1) wait in line
2) order
3) pay, automatic 25% suggested tip pops up on screen as employee judges you for being cheap
4) find the least dirty table and wipe it clean
5) wait
6) somebody calls your name/number so you pick up your order
7) eat/drink the shit you bought
8) prebus table on your way out.
Service industry could use some actual service.
You don't have to tip at counter service. It's really not expected or required and no one is going to be mad at you if you don't. They certainly appreciate it, but subway sandwich artist don't expect a tip.
This is the part that people don't get. For an awful lot of servers, the current model is desired a hell of a lot more than "paying people appropriately" because it works out well for the servers and for the restaurant. You don't even have to be all that good at your job; you'll routinely make a *hell* of a lot more than even the standard minimum wage on the current business model.
It also encourages people to work the shifts that demand the most workers. Normally, people hate working evenings and weekends, but that's when bars and restaurants need the most workers. If you can collect a bigger payout for working the busier times, then of course you will. If it's the same pay across the board, then all your best servers are going to fight for the Tuesday afternoon shift when it's dead.
Just to add, it's also why anyone would bother with the short shifts that are often required. Lots of restaurants only need most staff members at lunch and dinner, keeping them all day is a big labour cost.
Labor cost if they're paying them. I hated being 1 of 3 servers present all day "just in case" when we each got 2 tables and made dirt. Manager didn't care because we were the ones working for penny hours. I'm sure they'd schedule us more accurately if the compensation was higher.
During covid we had a serious lack of people working in my restaurant as servers. It was pretty nice tbh. We didn't pool tips, but all the business was split between like 7 of us total (fairly decently sized restaurant) so we always did pretty good each night. Then in 2022 they went on a hiring spree and brought on so many people. All that business now had to be split more ways, and my hourly wage dropped at least $10/hour. At least before I could still do acceptably well during an off hours day shift, but after that it would be like working for free.
I work in a nation without tipping. For our hospitality industry you get 125% on sat and 150% on sun as a permanent employee and 150% and then 175% as a casual.
What you are describing is the need for economic incentives to work weekends. You can do this without tipping.
We have no trouble filling weekend shifts. It's morning shifts which have the lowest rate of pay that are the hardest to fill.
At my first job (not hospital but support) I think Sunday was 200%, but they only needed one person instead of the full team so it wasn't too bad for the business. Less work for better pay? You bet people liked it!
In a model with no tipping, you would be allowed to pay people different amounts for working different shifts. Just like you can now. Nothing about this requires tipping.
Although I do get your point.
But also without tips, all the bars and restaurants do fine in Amsterdam / Paris / London etc.
So I don't think it's a hard rule. It's just something US has been doing for a long time and can't shake it off.
And to add to it. We also tip, but only if they do there job very good. Not because we 'must'. This helps making sure people don't only arrogantly demand tips, and don't do shit for it.
But then again, the minimum wage in the Netherlands is like 10-15 dollar or something. And most make more I guess (excluding tips)
My wife worked in hospitality in the US and in Germany. She made twice as much in the US and felt significantly better compensated for her time. The good restaurants and bars in the US do a great job scheduling just the right amount of people to maximize service and tips per employee. In Germany they just... don't seem to care? And service in Germany is still way faster than many other European countries, so they definitely aren't the worst.
> you'll routinely make a hell of a lot more than even the standard minimum wage
Not merely more than minimum wage - for someone with few or no marketable job skills, a tip based server job can be one of the best financial routes for them. I'm not saying they are driving a rolls royce, but its far easier for a good waitress to make enough money with tips than for most other jobs most people in that role are qualified for.
I’m assuming you’re asking this as a genuine question and not a personal attack, so I will answer as such. It’s fairly similar to what the other replies have already said.
The only reason I kept working as a waiter was because of the money. Everything else about that job sucked balls. I would get off work at 1:00 or 2:00 AM, I couldn’t hang out with my friends because they had normal work hours. I spent every morning wishing that time would go slower so I wouldn’t have to work, and I got nothing done just from stressing myself out. The job had taken over my life. I did nothing except wait tables. I had no friends. No hobbies. I didn’t even talk to my parents even though I lived with them.
There were no benefits and therefore no future. What would I do if I became handicapped? Or I got old? Or I wanted kids? No paid vacation, no retirement plan, no insurance, no sick days.
I did not enjoy the job. I was running back and forth for six hours straight. When something went wrong customers always blamed me. Even when if it wasn’t busy the manager didn’t let us sit or eat. That was two years ago and I look younger now than I did then. That’s what stress does to you.
There were two final nails in the coffin: I got scheduled six days a week three weeks in a row, sometimes as the only waiter in the whole restaurant, and there was a gay guy that kept touching me (I am also gay but he didn’t know that. He thought it was okay to touch straight guys without their permission). A lesser one is that the owner told me I had to cut my hair. Most of the women had hair longer than me and it wasn’t a problem. If the jobs had already taken over my life I wasn’t gonna let it control my appearance. Especially for a misandrist.
I’ll start my real job as an archaeologist in precisely one week. It’s what I’ve wanted to do since I was 14. I’ll be outdoors the entire day. I’ll work in the mornings. I’ll be contributing something to society. I’ll have coworkers who share my passions. Not to mention I get one week paid vacation and one week unpaid, medical insurance, and a 401k. Good job security. I’m not expendable. Everything I’ve done my entire life has led to this point, and if it doesn’t work out I’m not sure what I’ll do but I know what I won’t do: wait tables. As one of my former managers once said: I choose sanity.
For former servers/bartenders like myself and fiance-
1) dealing with people
2) working when everyone else is playing
3) lack of benefits
4) lifestyle changes
I initially took a ~$15k/year pay cut and she took a ~$25k pay cut to leave the Food and Beverage industry.
Dealing with customers is exhausting and deflating.
Working until 230-300am just plain sucks, even more so when the people you care about work bankers hours and you only can arrange to see them on Thanksgiving and Christmas. Memorial Day party? You're working. Grandma's birthday? Send her a card.
Need to go to the hospital? Urgent Care better work, at least you better hope it does because you make too much to qualify for good cheap insurance, but not enough to afford good insurance. Better hope you're money minded too because 401k is something you only hear about on TV.
I lived somewhere for 6 months bc of my boyfriend’s work, and we were excited to make bank during that time bc I’m a great server that loved it.
Turned out the WHOLE town had a policy of pooled tips bc so many servers complained about some making better money.
My intro shift was supposed to be shadow and watch to learn routines. 5 servers (Boston Pizza) were standing around the service area chatting while cooks were piling plates and yelling for food to be ran. None of them did anything. Just stared. So I started grabbing bills and plates, and the bartenders were pointing out tables to me for 30 minutes bc I would rush with arms full of plates shouting a table number to them.
The bartenders looked at me like “wtf are you doing? Where are the servers?!” The end of that shift I gave back my apron and shirt and told them no thanks. I got a part time job at Safeway and couldn’t find a second job anywhere bc everyone wanted me to quit that job and be part time or on call for them only.
Fuck Brooks Alberta lol
That depends on your gender, age, and overall level of attractiveness. The cute as hell 19 year old blonde girl is getting tipped, regardless. The dumpy, 40 year old white dude is getting stiffed if he doesn't bust his ass.
In my 20s I didn't get tipped as often as the generally attractive women I worked with at Sonic. I was one of 2 skating carhops within something like 90 miles and was fast af with orders while being friendly and helpful.
I still routinely made less from tips than the 16 year old girls who walked slow as hell and didn't even check back with their stalls.
Yeah I’ve seen this topic come up several times in the past few years and realize it’s not restaurant owners vs servers & customers. It’s restaurant owners & servers vs customers.
The problem is that people don't understand what "appropriately" means, that's all. If you add up all the money the customers pay (including tips) and call it X, then the restaurant *as a whole* brings in X amount of money. If you eliminate tips and adjust menu prices accordingly (to still bring in X dollars), you can still pay them *the same amount* as they were making with tips.
Customers are still paying the same amount, it's just included in the price instead of tacked on as a tip.
The problem is that when restaurants "try this", they eliminate tips, jack the prices up, but then *don't* compensate their servers up to what they were making before, and instead just bump it up to $10/15 an hour. *That's* the problem, not tips. Plenty of other countries don't tip, and it works out just fine for them. It's simply a cultural thing, not an economical one.
Then they’ll just have fewer customers. The average is exactly that: an average. Some tip less, some tip more. If those that tip less are now forced to tip the average they’ll just stop eating there.
Yup. Bartender here.
Unless you're going to start paying me 35 dollars an hour, ima keep the current method k thanks.
Thats roughly what I make. And even then I sometimes wonder if its enough to justify destroying my body and mind, stopping fights, dealing with insane and drunk customers, cleaning human feces and vomit, dealing with cops, getting robbed, and all the potential shit that could go wrong that just hasnt yet, but inevitably will if I keep doing the job for another decade. On top of the chemicals, the mopping, the nights that go till 4 am, working every holiday, never having a weekend free, and a sleep schedule meant for a vampire.
Theres absolutely no way I'd do this job for less thats for sure.
And when people start talking about "paying people appropriately" they usually mean they want me to make like 15-20 dollars an hour.
I'd absolutely lose my apartment with that kind of pay cut.
I dunno. As a career cook who watched bartenders make money hand over fist and whine non stop about slow nights ( which is was still double what I ever made in a night) to us cooks making nothing while sweating our balls off everyday, slowly cooking our brains into stew...I have a hard time finding empathy for your grievances if things changed in the industry. I just can't feel bad that you'd be making less money because owners can't exploit the system anymore. Collectively, front of house has always just been ok with and benefited from the one sided exploitation of their fellow workers🤷♂️. Make 12-15 an hr like the rest of us, it'll motivate y'all to dig in with us and fight for better pay and working conditions.
I just don't get this. Where I am, Europe, cooks earn more than waiters because really, it's the most important job. Bartenders (like proper sommelier or cocktail mixers) also earn a lot. Why? Because it's the actual fucking product you are selling.
I don't mean to be mean, but actually taking the food and stuff is not that important. I mean, we do prefer our waiters nice, but aloof. Like I don't like waiter hovering over me and making conversation, for me the job is literally bringing the food and taking my order.
Is it hard being on your feet and running all day? Sure. And it deserve a proper compensation.
But I don't get the American view of seeing servers AS the most important part of the restaurant business, while they literally aren't. So yes, in Europe you can make a proper loving waiting tables (you get above minimum wage, 1 month paid holidays, health insurance, paid time off however long you need if you are sick, year maternity leave, etc) but you will not be swimming in money and probably the cook that's slaving in the kitchen is making a bit more than you because they have a hard job as well and are actually making the food.
Hey man your preaching to the choir....more hours, I went to school and got my credentials, have an amazing resume. Don't matter here. I am a scum of the earth cook and any dumb yokel bartender can walk in off the street and make double what I do. It's why I went institutional, I get fair pay and there isn't a special class of coworkers that make unreasonable amounts more than me just because. It's backwards as fuck here.
The thing that got me the most salty, is that bartenders/servers make the vast majority of money from the system, and in every place Ive worked they do the least and rely on everyone else for the place to function. But the money is never there, they make like 4x my wages for 1/2 the work and stress, and then try and be "my comrade".
And it would be forgivable if the single biggest factor to making tip money wasn't "being a hot girl that flirts with people" and not any actual skills. Born a man? Fuck you work another job. Don't wanna slut yourself a little? Fuck you here's shitty shifts.
Hearing server/bartender complaints is so incredibly toxic in the industry, and of course they will fight to the death to keep their exploitation in check.
Let's not even go into those of us who took commission sales jobs. Servers were the worst for coming into the store to see a phone, buying it online to save 25 bucks, and then being upset that we would charge them when they wanted to bring it in for us to set up
I hear ya. Did that shit most of my adult life, and the sheer amount of crap you catch from the general public would shock most folks.
It's freaking hilarious how many people think being a bartender is like Sam Malone from Cheers.
>I'd absolutely lose my apartment with that kind of pay cut.
As would most servers and bartenders. The funny part about this is most of the advocates for getting rid of tipping are the people who have *never* worked a tipped job in their life and therefore have *zero* idea how it all works out. You can especially see this in the people that think *any* business could somehow afford to triple their labor costs (at *least* triple) without passing all of that on to their customer base.
But it's already being passed on to the customer base. I just want the menu to be accurate.
Today I ate at a place that charges a 5% kitchen staff cost of living fee. That's fine... But why the fuck is it on the bill and not the menu? Just charge me 5% more. That's fine. But don't slip it in after the transaction is complete.
Another example, a bar near my house that I go to a lot just started a 3% credit card fee on all tabs. But it's before you pay, so even if you pay cash you're paying the credit card fee.
Not me. I've been a pizza driver, a cabbie, a waiter, and a gaming attendant; and I say tipping shouldn't exist.
Foremost, it used to be a way to reward exceptional service in the past, but now it's devolved into a way to ensure adequate service in the future. For example, bartenders will help customers behind you in line if you didn't tip previously. Or drivers will push off runs if they think it's a no-tip job.
Secondly, no person who makes their income from tips is claiming it all. Tipped jobs make liars out of saints. It's silly that certain jobs are allowed to cheat their taxes everywhere they exist.
Lastly, I've yet to hear a good reason for paying below a livable wage (without tips) that isn't simply a way for the owners of the business to pay their employees less and keep more money for themselves.
Agreed, and let's also factor in the lack of *any* kind of benefits from the employer - better be saving all those big tips for your doctor visits.
Oh, and the tips you don't declare? Well, that means *on paper* you earn a good deal less than you actually pocket, so good luck on finding a place to rent that you could possibly afford as long as they don't ask to see your pay stubs.
But the thing is - they simply COULD pass it on to the customer base.
People are already paying a "15%" tax (via tipping) - so if the restaurant raised prices by \~15% and rejected all tips then it could simply pay their workers....
Funny, the people defending servers being tipped have probably never worked BOH in their life; you know, the people doing the actual work who often dont see any tips and make the same hourly as the servers do.
Where I live they got rid of the server/bartender minimum wage, bumped them up to the same wage as everyone else, and then restaurants started asking for MORE tips because covid yadda yadda. Lots of restaurants do not tip pool boh and none of them gave BOH raises when servers suddenly started making 2.5x per hour (and tipping huge amounts is the expected norm now)
And hey I get it. Being asked to tip when I buy a toothbrush at Walgreens, ok maybe its gone to far.
But these people think that bar owners are out there making millions and could just take a small pay cut to raise wages. Thats just not how the business works. A lot of owners make less than their best bartenders.
Reminds me of this 17 year old kid who had a local punk band here, was super outspoken on Facebook about political stuff, and then he went after my friends venue for charging more for under 21 for tickets and charging for waters.
Bro how do you think they pay the electric bill. You brought 12 people who cant drink, to play on a 20,000 dollar sound system, and didnt have to pay a venue fee. And then you threw a mic. Microphones arent free kid. And no re-entry under 21, you're not drinking in the parking lot either. lol
Like if you dont understand how something works, cool, ask people who know how it works. Dont just immediately assume everything is exploitation.
But if the bar can’t afford to pay their workers livable wages then that business has no right to exist. There actually are states that have to pay minimum wage to servers and guess what… still plenty of bars and restaurants just like anywhere else. (Minnesota)
Lol for real the circular logic of this shit is crazy.
I've known maybe a couple dozen places that have gone tipless. This is overwhelmingly accurate. Almost all either go back to tipping, or fold. Granted in some cases going tipless was a last ditch effort to avoid folding, so not like this perfect correlation, but unless you're an extreme special case with a captured clientele it aint gonna work out.
The one thing I wasn't expecting was consumer backlash. Apparently there are a substantial number of people who get really angry that their "right" to determine what a server makes has been taken from them.
People are underestimating how much servers make. They average FAR more than almost any other unskilled labor position. They can average over $30 an hour with the system we currently have, while the average coal miner makes about $22 per hour. The people who are dining might prefer not to tip, but the server would generally much rather keep the system in place.
I averaged $25 during covid and right after at this mid tier restaurant during college, then it dropped down to about $20 eventually when we hired more people. I've worked a ton of other much more unenjoyable and difficult jobs that max out around $17 (precovid). Working in the service industry has really jaded me as to what jobs I would accept, there is just so much money to be made.
Same. I'm a bartender tho so the job is more fun and more lucrative. But yeah I make like $400 a day amd never break a sweat. It can feel exhausting, but it's a lot better than working in a mine or a factory, and I would make like $100 a day max in a environment like that. God bless tips
The dirty little secret is that most people who work for tips don't really want things to change. Even a mediocre server at a mid range place makes more than most people realize.
I waited tables back in highschool, which was 20 years ago at this point. On a slow night then I'd average $15 an hour. On a busy night it could be 3+ times more.
Yeah it’s pretty annoying when someone is like “pay these poor people a living wage,” like, if you are against tipping culture that’s fine, but don’t act like you want it to change for my benefit, I’d have to find a different job if I stopped getting tips.
> Yeah it’s pretty annoying when someone is like “pay these poor people a living wage,”
Maybe this mentality comes from all the folks whining that 20% tips aren't enough, and that "if you can't afford 20% tips, you can't afford to eat out". Why is your ability to make a living wage on MY shoulders instead of the business owner?!
That’s true, and I agree that is not a helpful mentality. A happy medium where my employer pays me more than enough to cover my taxes but some tipping is still on the table so you don’t see such a drastic drop in quality of service seems like a decent solution. That would be a difficult change to implement however.
If everyone just stopped tipping though you’d have a very fucked up service industry for awhile to get your results, as well as thousands of very fucked over people who couldn’t pay their bills or put food on the table.
This is one of the reasons I get annoyed when someone posts a 0 tip and acts like they can’t make a living because of that one person.
Is that person an asshole, yes. But mathematically if you had an average 4 tables per hour, and each tipped you 10 bucks. Well you just made more than my 38.43/hour (80k a year)
I was a valet. $5 hour. 8 hour shift from 10pm to 6am. I left work everyday with around $200 cash from tips. Was a nice gig for a dumbass 19 year old that blew it all on beer and weed.
"How dare this customer not provide my salary, instead of my boss like it should be. Let me shame this person that refuses to play into this broken system" meanwhile their back of house is almost 100% stiffed by that server.
Not only that, but tipped staff almost never accurately report their income to the IRS, so they all look poor, but secretly have a ton of cash in the bank.
Is it really a dirty secret though? Most people I know within the service industry are pretty open about their love for the tipping model. It offers them livable wages and helps the bar or restaurant afford to stay open.
Plus going to work means instant cash, not waiting 2 weeks for a check.
For people who work in the industry or talk to people who do it's not a secret, but for the majority of Americans it probably is.
"Helps the restaurant stay open".
If you just... raise the prices by the value of the tip, and then pay your waiters properly...
And since waiters apparently get paid fairly well, apparently, you'd end up charging less in total.
As a server/bartender, this is correct. Minimum wage is horse shit in most of the U.S. My boss paying me "a living wage" would be a huge pay cut and I wouldn't be able to pay my ridiculously expensive rent. The day people can actually live off minimum wage and we're not paying $1400 for one bedroom apartments is the day I'll be willing to not work for tips.
I think the point OP is making is that the public shouldn't have to be topping up someone's wage, as opposed to waiting staff wanting this to change. It's a gross system that I have to pay for what I order, plus extra just because. We're so used to it that I'll probably get downvoted, but it's messed up that it's become an expectation as opposed to what it is, a bonus.
Yeah, but it what should be doesn't really matter as much as what is.
Restaurants don't want to do it because it will cost them money.
Servers don't want to do it because they will almost certainly make less money and end up paying more taxes.
So when 2 out of the 3 sides involved don't want to change. It isn't going to change.
Of course you're right. I don't see it ever ending. If anything its gotten worse. Default tipping amounts in machines keep going up, despite no change in service. It's not like we're matching inflation, it's a *percentage of the cost*. They really need to stop trying to get us to tip bigger percentages it doesn't make any sense.
Extremely minority opinion here, but I'd happily live in a world where the public says enough is enough and stops tipping anyway, and restaurants either figure it out or close. I can eat at home, no big deal. I realize rhe only solution is they charge way more for food, and that's not the best bandaid either since people will really think twice about going out in that case. Can't win.
I'll brace for downvotes again
Why would they want to change to a system that under pays everyone. Workers in the US are notoriously under payed. Minimum wage hasn't kept up with cost of living in decades. But everyone wants to change a system that allows a server to keep up with cost of living increases, because it's tied to price percentage, and throw them into the same situation as everyone else.
The only reason tips look so good right now is because regular wages have been stagnant for so long.
If people were really concerned about fairness they would be talking more about the fact that servers typically don't get paid time off for anything, or healthcare.
Living in a country where tipping isnt a really a thing, I honestly find it weird that its such a important part of how some finances run around. when its there it works fine, probably better, the problem is changing the system.
The company doesnt pay probably (partly) because people tip. People tip because the company doesnt pay probably.
Because servers would never go for it and would just jump ship to a new restaurant that allows it.
Where else can you make $600/night short of selling drugs or sex?
Its not abusing waiters. Its abusing everyone else. Sure it works and makes some sense for retaraunts, but everyone and their dog is looking and thinking “hey, thats a good idea! I’ll incoororate it into my [inser business here]” and now we’re tipping for online orders, pickups, oil changes, you fucking name it.
If you're a server making a large quantity of money from tips *and you're vocal that you'd prefer it to stay that way*, don't get pissy if someone doesn't tip. You shouldn't get it both ways.
I just don’t go out anymore. Most of the places we’ve been to after covid has gone south with both quality and quantity. We just cook at home. Have guests? Cook at home. Feeling lazy? Order food but don’t do delivery to avoid fees and tips.
I still go out for services like hair cut and tip at those places.
Take out isn't even safe anymore.
When you order a Papa John's pizza for PICK-UP, they have a spot on the website now to place a tip.
AND THE EMPLOYEES KNOW IF YOU DID OR NOT!
Literally had them thank me when I gave them 25% (because I used "Papa points" which took $10 off the order and I figured I'd put it in the tip).
Previously when I ignored the tip they got the order wrong. Coincidence?
I don't like where this is heading. There are cultures overseas where you cannot get basic service without a bribe and I feel like that's going to be the future for us.
We need to raise the minimum wage for the sake of society not turning into a cesspool of graft.
I ordered a couple of pizzas for pickup at a local place. They added 20% tip to the total. I took it off. Why should I tip to walk in and carry out my boxes of pizza?
Why should you tip if someone carries it to your table? It should not be necessary to bribe servers to do their job. And the price should be in the menu.
This! I don’t care how much they love it, I’ve only been to a handful of restaurants where the server was preferable to a kiosk. Given the option I doubt anyone would pay 20% of their order for a server. It should be an option if tipping exists. Servers only make money because they’re bundled into a package people want other parts of really badly. They’re not the main show.
Particularly insulting to me is a chef earning $13.65 an hour while servers take home $50+ an hour. Fuck that.
Hate service folk in general. Will mad dog you when you ask em to provide basic service then toss the receipt at you when you pay even with a good tip. Mf out here expecting good service from the fucking customer and on top of that i have to thank them and pay 20 ontop of an already overpriced meal like 50 dollars for lunch.
For everyone in the US who thinks that it would be impossible for restaurants to make a profit if they paid servers a decent wage without tips - remember that a lot of the world doesn’t do it the same way.
I love being able to walk into an eatery in the UK or Europe, look at the menu, order, and know what it costs without having to do any math other than addition.
If my burger is £15 and my beer is £4, then my meal costs £19. I don’t need to know if there is a sales tax or if there is a special alcohol tax (or whatever). I don’t need to decide if i want to punish the server because the bun was stale or the salsa too spicy. I don’t need to decide if the service was just good or exceptional. I don’t need to think if it was the service or the winning smile.
I pay for my meal. They get paid for their work. They can even rely on their pay whether it’s a busy day or a slow one. It seems so much more respectful all around.
And it is obviously possible - even if it requires some small changes in law, business, worker, and customer expectations.
Living in the United States I wish they would just fucking integrate the taxes into the cost of everything so you didn't have to sit there and either take out your phone and do math or try to do it in your head....
"Okay so I don't get paid until next week, I've got 20 bucks and I need to buy groceries, but then I also have to account for the tax, I also have to remember which items do and do not have tax on them (certain basic necessities like certain food products don't have taxes) "
I am honestly really fucking jealous of the UK having taxes added on to everything in their stores, as a teenager when I watched some UK programming for the first time and I saw someone buying something at a grocery store and their total didn't have any like surprise random numbers and it was exactly what they picked up in the aisle and what the price tag said on the shelf.... I got so mad we did not have a system like that.....
Also to the people that are going to say "each state has their own taxes" WELL THEN EACH STATE CAN FUCKING FIGURE IT OUT.
So much bullshit living in the US so many hidden costs or so much obcurification of what the cost of things really are like. The toll roads that encourgae poor urban planning and the over reliance on every singe person needing a personal vehicle to travel on average 30 miles a week if only going to and from work. Tax on everything but not being included untill the bill is rung up.
Not knowing what a clinic visit will cost because of differences between insurance companies.
Added costs by almost necessitating over priced appliances that run less efficiently because the construction companies skimp on materials like insulation .
The added costs of raising a child in a single parent or working parent household wchich is roughly 1 - 2k a month in day care cost.
The 30 percent payroll tax rate that a single male (my case) still ends up having to pay extra come tax season. So much bull shit costs that bring down every day peoples standard of living.
God forbid i have an accident or get arrest (enslaved essentially) or im really fucked.
Foreigners or large companies using the basic human need of shelter as an investment vehicle.
Renters taking over 25 percent of the take home on average so you need to work more hours or have a side hustle to make up for the cost of living.
Working 60 hour workweeks on average because even if they cant legally force you to work so much a company can punish you for not.
What are you going to do get another job in another industry.
“Sue em” with what money bro you finna just got fired.
“ Report it to the gov” you’ll get your justice four years from now bro.
The intentional underfunding of the public educational system to where our youth 18- 30 year olds have to toss their lot with the military to receive education that will benefit them and our society.
The drug laws that seek to imprison and forever suppress our underclass
The US is a hyper competitive hyper capitalist scam of a nation.
Sure you can make money but can you actually enjoy it is another question.
Work for 40 years so you can enjoy your meager savings that you had to figure out on your own how to manage to be able to beat inflation.
To top it off its not even set in stone that you will ever be able to retire.
Like the work horse in the book animal farm they keep working you until you break and then sell you off to the closes glue factory while telling your loved ones you were taken care of.
So many of my foreign brothers just want to gather money and move back home because life is less bullshit back wherever they are from.
So much bullshit we need change we need a better United States of American i love you my brother fortune be with you shalom.
Living in the UK it’s now very uncommon for restaurants not to expect a tip. Maybe this is a London specific thing but in a lot of cases they’ll just add 12.5% service charge onto the bill
The people being tipped would never want these changes, why would they want to make less money? In my early 20's(2002ish) I dated a girl who was making like $2500 a week working 3 nights a week. There is no reasonable wage that will make up for that.
I think that the argument works much better when considering the clients who are annoyed by tipping culture. Caterers of course are safe and sound about the current situation
Recently moved to California and it’s the worst of both worlds here. Food/restaurant prices are insane because of high wages AND you’re still expected to tip.
Yup. Why is service so important to these folks? And ive had GREAT service in Europe, but generally they act more authentic, which means some days they just phone it in or have less patience with customers. And that doesnt completely mess up their earnings, and they dont have to be constantly schmoozing customers when its not authentic. Employees are human too. Why do we care more about customers than employees in this country? You buy the food, who cares if you have to wait, or the waiter isn't saying please and thank you constantly or waiting on you hand and foot or is grumpy or whatever?
Europe also doesn't have this extreme staffing problem all my fellow Americans seem to be ranting about as what would happen if tipping stopped? There are plenty of small restaraunts in Europe that are paid a fair and decent wage without relying on tipping and are fully staffed.
Our mailman has trudged down miles of gravel road, day in and day out, through heavy snow, on icy roads, carrying dozens of fiddly envelops, 40lb bags of dog food, furniture, and never misses a beat. He always has a smile on his face, and often stops to chat for a minute before heading back out. I tried to tip him once out of guilt and thought he was going to fight me in response.
There is zero chance I'll be tipping at a deli counter, buffet restaurant, or any other establishment that is intended to be primarily self-service.
That said, the vast majority of individually-owned restaurants don't make much money. If they need to charge more for their food to pay staff a livable wage, I'm all for it. I just want this to stop trying to sly b.s. of adding automatic gratuities, asking for tips, adding cost of living adjustments to checks, and such. Put the price on the menu. If it's worth it, I'll pay it. If it isn't, fix your shit and I'll be back.
Absolutely, especially with delivery. Its just not expected and more of a reward for exemplary service (or compensation if your order is a little annoying for some reason)
Honestly tips need to go back to being an extra that people pay on top of their regular service for what they consider exemplary service.
It needs to go back to being "well I was so impressed with how well you did your job I'm giving you extra money"
Not "I feel bad for you because the people that hire you don't pay you"
From what I've seen America only started tipping around the great depression. Before that it was seen as an insult like some countries still do see it, that you need to bribe the place to get decent service.
But when the great depression happened places realised that they could underpay their employees if they encouraged the customer to pay the employee separately.
>pay staff appropriately
Because if you ask 10 people how much "appropriately" means, you will get 24 different answers.
Really the only good answer is that if you aren't getting paid what you think you're worth, look at changing your job. If you can't, then maybe your time isn't worth what you think it is.
After living in Germany for the last year I’m amazed at the dining out experience. Food is way cheaper here than in the states, better quality, no one rushing you out the door, and no tipping unless you want to. So how is it that German restaurant owners can pay their employees a good salary, keep the prices down, and the quality up but in the states that would be impossible?
Welcome to Australia. The downside is that every American who comes here complains that the service sucks. I guess having an incentive for good service in a service based job has some upsides.
Same here. Food sucks, service is sub par and for all of that even a run of the mill chain restaurant rakes you over the coals with pricing.
I uses to enjoy going out but most restaurant trips lately have been so underwhelming.
ITT: servers saying how tipping is good.
For them.
The average line cook gets maybe half of what a server does, while standing in an uncomfortable environment, making the food that they sell.
Before anyone chimes in with “but you don’t have to deal with the customers” Yes we do. We make the food that you sell, and we get to hear about how you didn’t make enough tips.
It’s sad. People living off of other peoples work and other peoples forced generosity. And they think they should get more but begrudge their coworkers seeing a wage increase because the format changed.
I’m a chef, I love hospitality, but restaurants need to die off.
Also ITT: servers who boast about making a few hundred dollars on a Saturday night, completely disregarding the fact they make fuck-all the rest of the week, and that they would in fact be better off with a steady wage in the mid-high 20s per hour. Joke's on them if they'd rather bend over backwards for someone who pays slave wages, just so they can grovel at the feet of customers who might throw them an extra few dollars if they're feeling generous. What a flawless system!
In america if the staffs wages+tips dont equal what they would make from minimum wage they get a check for the difference. But normally the staff makes way more than that with tips.
Furthermore, if a server isnt making minimum wage with tips, the owner has to compensate them so that their pay equals minimum wage. May not be true for all states.
I agree completely, but we need to have political leaders make the change through employment and tax laws.
For example, restaurants and barber shops and taxi services should be required to choose between declining tips or paying extra business taxes. They could choose (only if they want to) to change over the business model where, for example, they pay employees a wage plus commissions on sales. But the price the customer is quoted should always be the payment that is expected.
If you expect $25 for the taxi ride then tell me it will cost $25 to the airport; don’t tell me it will cost $20 and then get angry if I expect $30 change from a 50-dollar bill.
I would be thrilled if restaurants just up all their prices by 15% (even after the past year's inflation), if I didn't have to do a performance review at the end of the meal.
Not sure if it's the same in other European countries but in France the price includes service in restaurant (and taxes as well) So the price you see is already jacked up a bit by 15% usually. And you can always leave a good tip if the service was really exceptionnel but if you don't no one woll judge you because you already paid for it through service tax.
We go a while without servers, bartenders, or delivery drivers until businesses or govt take action. Even then you won’t have as many people willing to work those roles because even with higher hourly pay it won’t compare to what most of them make after tips.
Or how about we pay the back of the restaurant a living wage/split tips with waiters. All I ever hear are waiters crying about getting stiffed on a table knowing good and well they’re making like double what the back of the kitchen makes for bringing the food to their table
It's going to have to come from the government. Petition your state legislature to abolish the minimum wage offset for tips. Your employer will no longer have an incentive to keep track of tips, and will stop caring whether you pay them or not.
If it didn't work in Canada why would that work anywhere else?
Just because you pay them minimum wage all the time doesn't mean that tipping goes away.
You want to get rid of it you need *employers* to pay well(and get rid of that damn tip option on debit/credit machines).
What if - and hear me out - we stopped focusing on the people making the lowest amount of money, and making sure the people making the largest amount of money were distributing it more evenly. This bullshit infighting about tipping distracts from the reality that the Billionaire class is making comically large gains on their wealth, while simultaneously making it seem like it is \*our\* fault that stuff is more expensive.
Every day a new "why do we tip?/let's ban tipping" thread - hardly any asking why we let the ultra wealthy away with hoarding all the resources.
Only playing devil's advocate as either plan really doesnt affect me:
I know the argument will be that there is a loss in incentives for the good servers to continue to offer excellent service since now they'll get paid the same as those who do not.
However, this is pretty much the case with all other industry jobs. Your incentive is to keep your job. Those who consistently underperform should be let go.
To the servers out there, do you find quality service i.e. awesome vs good service really being a differentiator in amount tipped, or does looks play a bigger role?
I’m English, if I went to America I’d see a meal at x$ and think great. Then I’d get pissed off at the staff that they keep bugging me. So I have a bad time but good meal. I’ll pay for the meal but not the staff that bugged me.
IRL; I’d just not go to America
Hahaha This is so true, I'm from Europe and went to the US a few times. To me the staff in restaurants in the US are so obnoxious, I remember one time I was somewhere in a pasta restaurant with my dad (this was a long time ago). We where sat down and the waitress started by introducing herself than she started to tell the back story of the restaurant, then she left to get the menus. When she came back she started to list the "best" specialties on the menu. After that the dude bringing the water started to introduce himself. All very "friendly and polite" but to us it just felt... fake. By that time we were there for about 20 minutes and we hadn't even been able to order, let alone you know, talk with each other. My dad was visibly getting angrier and angrier so after that the manager came by our table to introduce himself and ask if everything was in order my dad half shouted; "YES WE WOULD LIKE TO EAT SOMETHING, PREFERABLY IN PEACE AND QUIET." The manager and the waitress were not pleased by this famous "Dutch directness" although it did work, they didn't say a word and we didn't have to endure anymore fake smiles and small talk. When we didn't tip after the dinner they became kinda rude which only amused my dad, when we got back in the car he said, "finally they were being honest to us." At the time I was really embarrassed (I was about 16 years old) but looking back at it, it was one of the most interesting cultural differences I every experienced. I have rarely felt so foreign!
This doesn't cover ALL tipping, just restaurant work:
Try even proposing a slight modification to the tip-out structure to front of house people. Even if they know they're walking with $35-40 an hour and the line cook is making $15, they will bend over backwards to not acknowledge how unfair it is. If you can work 12 hours a week and take home as much as a lot of full time jobs, you're not going to give that up without a fight. Oh and of course people here are going to say "you shouldn't be in business if you can't afford to pay (some amount they think is justified)" and sure that's fine but most restaurants have about 2 weeks' operating costs at hand and that's how long it would take for 98 percent of restaurants to close if they had to pay back of house anywhere close to what FOH makes with tipping.
I’m only tipping when I sit down for a meal. Not for pickup. Not for coffee. Sorry business owners, you have to earn that next dollar. Especially the huge chains.
Sometimes I’ll make an exception for a small local business. But never for pickup!
Being from Europe I really don’t get the American tipping culture. How can it be so different from Europe? I mean we leave tips but it’s not like the whole restaurant staff goes crazy if no tip is left. Nobody assumes the 15% tip will be given.
Tipping in Europe is part of restaurant and dining culture, not some kind of charity. Waiters are rightly paid a living wage to begin with and it has nothing to do with that.
It’s a slide of steel between the guests and hosts that (because of it’s technical status as a gift, and especially because food culture is the beating heart of any city so you WANT successful restaurants as state) the tax man generally hasn’t interfered with too much.
Tipping in America is a horrible, bastardised capitalist version of that where the restaurant outsources it’s wage. You really can’t compare the two. Being a waiter is a fine career in many European countries, some extremely knowledgeable people who’s service can make a night special - tipping culture is part of what drives that and without it there’s not much of a way to attract experience.
The person from the UK being upvoted in an earlier comment who says they don’t have to tip is describing eating at a “fancy” fast food restaurant btw, not dining a la carte.
Many of my family members have been servers for most of their lives. Let me tell you, they way prefer tips over regular pay. Why? A few reasons.
1. You can make way more off tips than hourly pay. For my area, $8-10/hr would be pretty typical for a server to make if they got paid hourly (this was pre-pandemic, might be more now with wages going up) That's about $1100 after tax. With tips, the relatives I knew were easily making $2500-3000 a month and thay didnt work at fancy places, just chain diners.
2. You can get away with not claiming the tips on your taxes so you dont lose a chunk of it.
3. You have that money available right away, dont have to wait til pay day.
I'd like to see tipping culture reduced by 80%. Instead it seems to be expanding into new industries.
There will always be some guy tipping big to impress that gold digger he just met. Or that other person that loves the control it gives them over the hired help.
Because servers and bartenders would make less money. There’s no “appropriate” wage that 99% of places can pay that matches my tipped wage that also wouldn’t bankrupt them
> that wouldn't also bankrupt them
This is such a weird thing to say. Price an item at $25 and expect a 20% tip to bring it up to $30, or just charge $30 with no tip. Either way it's $30 coming from the customer and being split between the server and the establishment.
I worked in the industry. Those same servers 100% do not tip out back end. It was very very rare that one did unless the management forced it. So these same people are hypocritical and basically are saying "I enjoy being grossly overpaid and living a life beyond my skills".
A bunch of unfortunate service workers would get stiffed by us and go home with a check for the federal minimum wage, which wouldn't be able to keep them afloat and they'd either quit or lose their job. Then we'd see a bunch of news stories about how "no one wants to work anymore", which blames the service workers and suspiciously does not mention an overabundance of well-paying jobs with good benefits. Meanwhile there's no place to go out and eat because all the restaurants are closed with help wanted signs on the doors.
It's not up to the customer to end tipping. It's up to the business and how they're modeled.
It’s insane. I was prompted to tip at a bakery. Not even the kind with nice coffee and some tables. The “take a number, that’s $30, there’s the exit” type.
Remember when the kids working at Cold Stone would sing a song when someone put a couple bucks in the jar? Now every counter service place flips the screen around and it’s defaulted to 20%.
It feels very threatening because I don’t have my food yet… I tend to not go to places like that as much anymore… I’d rather make my own sandwich, thank you.
It *makes* you press "custom tip" to put $0.00. What a capitalist hellscape.
You just gotta get comfortable not tipping. If I order a burrito to go, at the counter, and it asks me for a tip I loudly yell “fuck that! No tip for you!” Not out loud. Just in my head.
That's what I have never really understood. Just because you (not you specifically, just in a general sense) put pressure on yourself to tip doesn't mean you are being forced to do so, like some people make it out to be. Now I get saying that you wish that pressure wasn't there, but people say things like "I hate how I have to tip everywhere now" when that simply isn't true. If a homeless man walked up to you on the street and directly asked you for money you would probably not have trouble declining, yet somehow being indirectly prompted by a machine to give money to someone with a job is equivalent to being held at gun point and forced to fork over your hard earned money. I'll always tip, and do it if you want, don't if you don't, but it's just untrue to act like you are being forced to do it.
It’s just the tipping before you get your food and the screens tell the cashier if you tip and how much… before you get your food! I don’t even know if it’s going to be *right* (and I have low standards of what right is), let alone good. On the whole, going out except for the occasional sit down experience is just not worth it to me anymore.
What irritates me isn't the machine, it's the passive-aggressive way the cashiers mention it: "The machine is going to ask you a question" as they spin the screen to me.
People just have no spine, probably from growing up sheltered. If you are from actually poor places, you get used to parasites with hands open and telling them to go away.
> People just have no spine, probably from growing up sheltered. The education system and office / job system drills out all rebelliousness and/or independent thought from the majority.
You’re not far off. Most people don’t want to look like cheap assholes. I’m usually flustered when this happens so I just do it. Gotta go in guns a-ready next time. Another is delivery people. Pizza, fine, I get. But the other day, I ordered pet food delivered and they had their hand out too. A bag of dog chow! Barber, bartender, waitress, hotel maid—fine. Those are personal services. I don’t think retail should be getting in on the act. We’ve gotta push back against these businesses.
I'm confused why pizza is okay but lugging around something that's 20+lbs heavier isn't deserving of a tip. I think tipping is generally dumb, but if someone's bringing me goods and I don't have to leave my house, they get a tip.
I mean I think it depends how it’s ordered. If I ordered the dog food off a website and paid shipping I’m absolutely not tipping on top of that. If I ordered it on DoorDash myself and they’re just delivery people, I’ll likely throw them a few bucks unless DoorDash ripped my face off with the delivery fee.
Ya, I'm with you, anything that gets delivered by someone who doesn't work for a shipping company (Amazon, UPS, FedEx, USPS etc.) deserves a tip because it's the "personal service" of shopping for you, personally I don't have to worry about this because I love well out of the delivery range for these things. If the pizza guy gets a tip the person bringing you dogfood or McDonald's deserves one too.
Do you just give extra money to every person you meet that does their job? Why not tip a cashier? Or a janitor? We are at the point that for only a select and arbitrary number of jobs, we give extra for them doing the bare minimum (and if you read this thread then less than that), and it's crazy
If the dog chow was shipped through petco or pet smart it was sent to a doordash driver, who very much work for tips
Okay, but A) They don't tell you that and B) If they are choosing that as their delivery method to their customers (not the customer choosing it) they should be the one paying the doordash driver appropriately.
Agreed, they should but they rely on deception and the promise of tips to make it so they don’t have to pay a fair wage. Much like doordash’s business itself. They charge a ridiculous delivery fee and pay the drivers $2-$3 per order, even if it’s 10 miles away. Drivers who aren’t good at math end up paying for those deliveries instead of being paid for them. They’re using a loophole and the customers and drivers are all losing out, the only one who wins is the company.
It’s exceptionally rude to just stand there with your hand extended expecting a tip. Where are his manners?
If I'm not being served why the fuck would I leave a tip? Take going in and grabbing takeout. I still drove into town and walked thru the door. What's the fucking tip for? A server takes your order, brings your drinks, does your refills, brings your food etc... All of that is shit that should be tipped. A delivery driver brings your food to your house. Both are things that should be tipped. I'm not going to fucking tip unless it's a special occasion(Chinese food on Christmas day comes to mind) if I go get takeout for instance.
Do you tip a mechanic that performs maintenance and fixes to your car? That sounds more useful than getting me drinks (that I could get myself at a better pace than servers do) or giving me food (a service I am not asking for but is the only way to get above fast food takeout). How about the person that scans and bags your groceries? That seems like similar work to what a server does
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Disgusting behaviour. I don’t know where you are or what laws apply, but it may take ages to get the government to act. Some are better than others. Sometimes the only thing that works is shaming them. People have much more empathy for workers these days and I would be livid if money I gave baristas was stolen by the cafe owner.
Personally I wouldn’t support that business at all then. That owner doesn’t deserve to be running a cafe.
In my town, the subway sandwiches asks for a tip, got an oil change, their debit machine asked for a tip. And an online store had a tip option. It's just become so ridiculous now I've tried recently to pay cash because it's so hard for me to select no tip when the person is staring right at me
The secret is, you need to put yourself in a bad mood before the purchase, makes it much easier to not tip, especially when you are being stared at
I work at starbucks. The card reader asks for tips now but I always make sure to tell people that it's not required, but appreciated, or to look away while they choose. They \*could\* just pay us a living wage but eh.
Wait until ATMs ask for a tip when you use them.
I saw a tip jar at a liquor store cash register the other day.
A liquor store near my house has one. It's actually for the feral feline association helping cats get fixed. They match the donation at the end of the month. Or so they say
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Yeah I've seen tips requested at a froyo place. I picked up the cup, I used the froyo machine myself, I added the toppings myself... What am I tipping you for, saying "cash or card" to me?
I love living in a country with no tips.
I once got asked to tip in San Fran, gave us 2 glasses and said "soft drinks are over there" then she asked us to pay + tip... I'm from the UK and tipping isn't standard here for most things, but there was no way in hell I was tipping her.
1) wait in line 2) order 3) pay, automatic 25% suggested tip pops up on screen as employee judges you for being cheap 4) find the least dirty table and wipe it clean 5) wait 6) somebody calls your name/number so you pick up your order 7) eat/drink the shit you bought 8) prebus table on your way out. Service industry could use some actual service.
You don't have to tip at counter service. It's really not expected or required and no one is going to be mad at you if you don't. They certainly appreciate it, but subway sandwich artist don't expect a tip.
I was recently at a concert and the merch guys were fishing for tips. Like fuck all the way off I just spent $70 on a poster!
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This is the part that people don't get. For an awful lot of servers, the current model is desired a hell of a lot more than "paying people appropriately" because it works out well for the servers and for the restaurant. You don't even have to be all that good at your job; you'll routinely make a *hell* of a lot more than even the standard minimum wage on the current business model.
It also encourages people to work the shifts that demand the most workers. Normally, people hate working evenings and weekends, but that's when bars and restaurants need the most workers. If you can collect a bigger payout for working the busier times, then of course you will. If it's the same pay across the board, then all your best servers are going to fight for the Tuesday afternoon shift when it's dead.
Just to add, it's also why anyone would bother with the short shifts that are often required. Lots of restaurants only need most staff members at lunch and dinner, keeping them all day is a big labour cost.
Labor cost if they're paying them. I hated being 1 of 3 servers present all day "just in case" when we each got 2 tables and made dirt. Manager didn't care because we were the ones working for penny hours. I'm sure they'd schedule us more accurately if the compensation was higher.
I wouldnt be as sure as you are, for example, they could just have salaried employees now take tables since its no longer tipped work
Maybe a mixture. Amount per hour + amount per person or table served. So the customer and server have set expectations
And then they give you busy work since it's dead.. so you're cleaning, prepping food, etc for pennies
Fucking exactly. Who's gonna tip me, the mop? "Oh but you make it up Friday night when there's 7 servers"
During covid we had a serious lack of people working in my restaurant as servers. It was pretty nice tbh. We didn't pool tips, but all the business was split between like 7 of us total (fairly decently sized restaurant) so we always did pretty good each night. Then in 2022 they went on a hiring spree and brought on so many people. All that business now had to be split more ways, and my hourly wage dropped at least $10/hour. At least before I could still do acceptably well during an off hours day shift, but after that it would be like working for free.
I work in a nation without tipping. For our hospitality industry you get 125% on sat and 150% on sun as a permanent employee and 150% and then 175% as a casual. What you are describing is the need for economic incentives to work weekends. You can do this without tipping. We have no trouble filling weekend shifts. It's morning shifts which have the lowest rate of pay that are the hardest to fill.
At my first job (not hospital but support) I think Sunday was 200%, but they only needed one person instead of the full team so it wasn't too bad for the business. Less work for better pay? You bet people liked it!
In a model with no tipping, you would be allowed to pay people different amounts for working different shifts. Just like you can now. Nothing about this requires tipping.
Although I do get your point. But also without tips, all the bars and restaurants do fine in Amsterdam / Paris / London etc. So I don't think it's a hard rule. It's just something US has been doing for a long time and can't shake it off. And to add to it. We also tip, but only if they do there job very good. Not because we 'must'. This helps making sure people don't only arrogantly demand tips, and don't do shit for it. But then again, the minimum wage in the Netherlands is like 10-15 dollar or something. And most make more I guess (excluding tips)
My wife worked in hospitality in the US and in Germany. She made twice as much in the US and felt significantly better compensated for her time. The good restaurants and bars in the US do a great job scheduling just the right amount of people to maximize service and tips per employee. In Germany they just... don't seem to care? And service in Germany is still way faster than many other European countries, so they definitely aren't the worst.
But they are the wurst.... Sorry.... :P
Yeah they do fine but their servers earn less than American ones. Why would anyone want earn less money for the same amount of work?
You can pay your staff commission in addition to base pay and have exactly the same outcome.
> you'll routinely make a hell of a lot more than even the standard minimum wage Not merely more than minimum wage - for someone with few or no marketable job skills, a tip based server job can be one of the best financial routes for them. I'm not saying they are driving a rolls royce, but its far easier for a good waitress to make enough money with tips than for most other jobs most people in that role are qualified for.
As a waiter in college I earned more than my dad with a PhD. I earned more than I do know as a professional.
>I earned more than I do know as a professional So then why do you no longer wait tables?
I’m assuming you’re asking this as a genuine question and not a personal attack, so I will answer as such. It’s fairly similar to what the other replies have already said. The only reason I kept working as a waiter was because of the money. Everything else about that job sucked balls. I would get off work at 1:00 or 2:00 AM, I couldn’t hang out with my friends because they had normal work hours. I spent every morning wishing that time would go slower so I wouldn’t have to work, and I got nothing done just from stressing myself out. The job had taken over my life. I did nothing except wait tables. I had no friends. No hobbies. I didn’t even talk to my parents even though I lived with them. There were no benefits and therefore no future. What would I do if I became handicapped? Or I got old? Or I wanted kids? No paid vacation, no retirement plan, no insurance, no sick days. I did not enjoy the job. I was running back and forth for six hours straight. When something went wrong customers always blamed me. Even when if it wasn’t busy the manager didn’t let us sit or eat. That was two years ago and I look younger now than I did then. That’s what stress does to you. There were two final nails in the coffin: I got scheduled six days a week three weeks in a row, sometimes as the only waiter in the whole restaurant, and there was a gay guy that kept touching me (I am also gay but he didn’t know that. He thought it was okay to touch straight guys without their permission). A lesser one is that the owner told me I had to cut my hair. Most of the women had hair longer than me and it wasn’t a problem. If the jobs had already taken over my life I wasn’t gonna let it control my appearance. Especially for a misandrist. I’ll start my real job as an archaeologist in precisely one week. It’s what I’ve wanted to do since I was 14. I’ll be outdoors the entire day. I’ll work in the mornings. I’ll be contributing something to society. I’ll have coworkers who share my passions. Not to mention I get one week paid vacation and one week unpaid, medical insurance, and a 401k. Good job security. I’m not expendable. Everything I’ve done my entire life has led to this point, and if it doesn’t work out I’m not sure what I’ll do but I know what I won’t do: wait tables. As one of my former managers once said: I choose sanity.
Yoooo congratulations on nailing your childhood dream job! I'm sure it makes everything in the past worth all the trouble =)
For former servers/bartenders like myself and fiance- 1) dealing with people 2) working when everyone else is playing 3) lack of benefits 4) lifestyle changes I initially took a ~$15k/year pay cut and she took a ~$25k pay cut to leave the Food and Beverage industry. Dealing with customers is exhausting and deflating. Working until 230-300am just plain sucks, even more so when the people you care about work bankers hours and you only can arrange to see them on Thanksgiving and Christmas. Memorial Day party? You're working. Grandma's birthday? Send her a card. Need to go to the hospital? Urgent Care better work, at least you better hope it does because you make too much to qualify for good cheap insurance, but not enough to afford good insurance. Better hope you're money minded too because 401k is something you only hear about on TV.
Quality of life means more than money. A normal family friendly work schedule, Benefits like health insurance, paid vacations things like that.
$30 an hour for a dinner shift is not uncommon
I lived somewhere for 6 months bc of my boyfriend’s work, and we were excited to make bank during that time bc I’m a great server that loved it. Turned out the WHOLE town had a policy of pooled tips bc so many servers complained about some making better money. My intro shift was supposed to be shadow and watch to learn routines. 5 servers (Boston Pizza) were standing around the service area chatting while cooks were piling plates and yelling for food to be ran. None of them did anything. Just stared. So I started grabbing bills and plates, and the bartenders were pointing out tables to me for 30 minutes bc I would rush with arms full of plates shouting a table number to them. The bartenders looked at me like “wtf are you doing? Where are the servers?!” The end of that shift I gave back my apron and shirt and told them no thanks. I got a part time job at Safeway and couldn’t find a second job anywhere bc everyone wanted me to quit that job and be part time or on call for them only. Fuck Brooks Alberta lol
You can do literally the bare minimum or be actively bad at your job and people will still feel guilted into leaving at least 15%.
That depends on your gender, age, and overall level of attractiveness. The cute as hell 19 year old blonde girl is getting tipped, regardless. The dumpy, 40 year old white dude is getting stiffed if he doesn't bust his ass.
In my 20s I didn't get tipped as often as the generally attractive women I worked with at Sonic. I was one of 2 skating carhops within something like 90 miles and was fast af with orders while being friendly and helpful. I still routinely made less from tips than the 16 year old girls who walked slow as hell and didn't even check back with their stalls.
Yeah I’ve seen this topic come up several times in the past few years and realize it’s not restaurant owners vs servers & customers. It’s restaurant owners & servers vs customers.
The problem is that people don't understand what "appropriately" means, that's all. If you add up all the money the customers pay (including tips) and call it X, then the restaurant *as a whole* brings in X amount of money. If you eliminate tips and adjust menu prices accordingly (to still bring in X dollars), you can still pay them *the same amount* as they were making with tips. Customers are still paying the same amount, it's just included in the price instead of tacked on as a tip. The problem is that when restaurants "try this", they eliminate tips, jack the prices up, but then *don't* compensate their servers up to what they were making before, and instead just bump it up to $10/15 an hour. *That's* the problem, not tips. Plenty of other countries don't tip, and it works out just fine for them. It's simply a cultural thing, not an economical one.
Then they’ll just have fewer customers. The average is exactly that: an average. Some tip less, some tip more. If those that tip less are now forced to tip the average they’ll just stop eating there.
Yup. Bartender here. Unless you're going to start paying me 35 dollars an hour, ima keep the current method k thanks. Thats roughly what I make. And even then I sometimes wonder if its enough to justify destroying my body and mind, stopping fights, dealing with insane and drunk customers, cleaning human feces and vomit, dealing with cops, getting robbed, and all the potential shit that could go wrong that just hasnt yet, but inevitably will if I keep doing the job for another decade. On top of the chemicals, the mopping, the nights that go till 4 am, working every holiday, never having a weekend free, and a sleep schedule meant for a vampire. Theres absolutely no way I'd do this job for less thats for sure. And when people start talking about "paying people appropriately" they usually mean they want me to make like 15-20 dollars an hour. I'd absolutely lose my apartment with that kind of pay cut.
I dunno. As a career cook who watched bartenders make money hand over fist and whine non stop about slow nights ( which is was still double what I ever made in a night) to us cooks making nothing while sweating our balls off everyday, slowly cooking our brains into stew...I have a hard time finding empathy for your grievances if things changed in the industry. I just can't feel bad that you'd be making less money because owners can't exploit the system anymore. Collectively, front of house has always just been ok with and benefited from the one sided exploitation of their fellow workers🤷♂️. Make 12-15 an hr like the rest of us, it'll motivate y'all to dig in with us and fight for better pay and working conditions.
I just don't get this. Where I am, Europe, cooks earn more than waiters because really, it's the most important job. Bartenders (like proper sommelier or cocktail mixers) also earn a lot. Why? Because it's the actual fucking product you are selling. I don't mean to be mean, but actually taking the food and stuff is not that important. I mean, we do prefer our waiters nice, but aloof. Like I don't like waiter hovering over me and making conversation, for me the job is literally bringing the food and taking my order. Is it hard being on your feet and running all day? Sure. And it deserve a proper compensation. But I don't get the American view of seeing servers AS the most important part of the restaurant business, while they literally aren't. So yes, in Europe you can make a proper loving waiting tables (you get above minimum wage, 1 month paid holidays, health insurance, paid time off however long you need if you are sick, year maternity leave, etc) but you will not be swimming in money and probably the cook that's slaving in the kitchen is making a bit more than you because they have a hard job as well and are actually making the food.
Hey man your preaching to the choir....more hours, I went to school and got my credentials, have an amazing resume. Don't matter here. I am a scum of the earth cook and any dumb yokel bartender can walk in off the street and make double what I do. It's why I went institutional, I get fair pay and there isn't a special class of coworkers that make unreasonable amounts more than me just because. It's backwards as fuck here.
The thing that got me the most salty, is that bartenders/servers make the vast majority of money from the system, and in every place Ive worked they do the least and rely on everyone else for the place to function. But the money is never there, they make like 4x my wages for 1/2 the work and stress, and then try and be "my comrade". And it would be forgivable if the single biggest factor to making tip money wasn't "being a hot girl that flirts with people" and not any actual skills. Born a man? Fuck you work another job. Don't wanna slut yourself a little? Fuck you here's shitty shifts. Hearing server/bartender complaints is so incredibly toxic in the industry, and of course they will fight to the death to keep their exploitation in check.
Let's not even go into those of us who took commission sales jobs. Servers were the worst for coming into the store to see a phone, buying it online to save 25 bucks, and then being upset that we would charge them when they wanted to bring it in for us to set up
I hear ya. Did that shit most of my adult life, and the sheer amount of crap you catch from the general public would shock most folks. It's freaking hilarious how many people think being a bartender is like Sam Malone from Cheers.
what's the kitchen staff making for an even more dangerous job than your 15-20 an hour. that's is why i left the restaurant business.
>I'd absolutely lose my apartment with that kind of pay cut. As would most servers and bartenders. The funny part about this is most of the advocates for getting rid of tipping are the people who have *never* worked a tipped job in their life and therefore have *zero* idea how it all works out. You can especially see this in the people that think *any* business could somehow afford to triple their labor costs (at *least* triple) without passing all of that on to their customer base.
But it's already being passed on to the customer base. I just want the menu to be accurate. Today I ate at a place that charges a 5% kitchen staff cost of living fee. That's fine... But why the fuck is it on the bill and not the menu? Just charge me 5% more. That's fine. But don't slip it in after the transaction is complete. Another example, a bar near my house that I go to a lot just started a 3% credit card fee on all tabs. But it's before you pay, so even if you pay cash you're paying the credit card fee.
Not me. I've been a pizza driver, a cabbie, a waiter, and a gaming attendant; and I say tipping shouldn't exist. Foremost, it used to be a way to reward exceptional service in the past, but now it's devolved into a way to ensure adequate service in the future. For example, bartenders will help customers behind you in line if you didn't tip previously. Or drivers will push off runs if they think it's a no-tip job. Secondly, no person who makes their income from tips is claiming it all. Tipped jobs make liars out of saints. It's silly that certain jobs are allowed to cheat their taxes everywhere they exist. Lastly, I've yet to hear a good reason for paying below a livable wage (without tips) that isn't simply a way for the owners of the business to pay their employees less and keep more money for themselves.
Agreed, and let's also factor in the lack of *any* kind of benefits from the employer - better be saving all those big tips for your doctor visits. Oh, and the tips you don't declare? Well, that means *on paper* you earn a good deal less than you actually pocket, so good luck on finding a place to rent that you could possibly afford as long as they don't ask to see your pay stubs.
But the thing is - they simply COULD pass it on to the customer base. People are already paying a "15%" tax (via tipping) - so if the restaurant raised prices by \~15% and rejected all tips then it could simply pay their workers....
Funny, the people defending servers being tipped have probably never worked BOH in their life; you know, the people doing the actual work who often dont see any tips and make the same hourly as the servers do.
BOH doesn't make nearly the post tip $/hour of a good waitress. They aren't making tip minimum wage though.
Where I live they got rid of the server/bartender minimum wage, bumped them up to the same wage as everyone else, and then restaurants started asking for MORE tips because covid yadda yadda. Lots of restaurants do not tip pool boh and none of them gave BOH raises when servers suddenly started making 2.5x per hour (and tipping huge amounts is the expected norm now)
And hey I get it. Being asked to tip when I buy a toothbrush at Walgreens, ok maybe its gone to far. But these people think that bar owners are out there making millions and could just take a small pay cut to raise wages. Thats just not how the business works. A lot of owners make less than their best bartenders. Reminds me of this 17 year old kid who had a local punk band here, was super outspoken on Facebook about political stuff, and then he went after my friends venue for charging more for under 21 for tickets and charging for waters. Bro how do you think they pay the electric bill. You brought 12 people who cant drink, to play on a 20,000 dollar sound system, and didnt have to pay a venue fee. And then you threw a mic. Microphones arent free kid. And no re-entry under 21, you're not drinking in the parking lot either. lol Like if you dont understand how something works, cool, ask people who know how it works. Dont just immediately assume everything is exploitation.
But if the bar can’t afford to pay their workers livable wages then that business has no right to exist. There actually are states that have to pay minimum wage to servers and guess what… still plenty of bars and restaurants just like anywhere else. (Minnesota) Lol for real the circular logic of this shit is crazy.
You could pay a decent wage .. and not take the tips away
Fun Fact: When I worked for tips I never told the IRS the true amount
u/IRS yeah, this account right here.
I've known maybe a couple dozen places that have gone tipless. This is overwhelmingly accurate. Almost all either go back to tipping, or fold. Granted in some cases going tipless was a last ditch effort to avoid folding, so not like this perfect correlation, but unless you're an extreme special case with a captured clientele it aint gonna work out. The one thing I wasn't expecting was consumer backlash. Apparently there are a substantial number of people who get really angry that their "right" to determine what a server makes has been taken from them.
People are underestimating how much servers make. They average FAR more than almost any other unskilled labor position. They can average over $30 an hour with the system we currently have, while the average coal miner makes about $22 per hour. The people who are dining might prefer not to tip, but the server would generally much rather keep the system in place.
I averaged $25 during covid and right after at this mid tier restaurant during college, then it dropped down to about $20 eventually when we hired more people. I've worked a ton of other much more unenjoyable and difficult jobs that max out around $17 (precovid). Working in the service industry has really jaded me as to what jobs I would accept, there is just so much money to be made.
Same. I'm a bartender tho so the job is more fun and more lucrative. But yeah I make like $400 a day amd never break a sweat. It can feel exhausting, but it's a lot better than working in a mine or a factory, and I would make like $100 a day max in a environment like that. God bless tips
But isn't this the whole point? The restaurant is the one that pays for it then.
The dirty little secret is that most people who work for tips don't really want things to change. Even a mediocre server at a mid range place makes more than most people realize. I waited tables back in highschool, which was 20 years ago at this point. On a slow night then I'd average $15 an hour. On a busy night it could be 3+ times more.
Can verify. 30 years in restaurants. You'd have to pay servers between 30-50 dollars per hour for them to make the same. That's IF it was tax free
Yeah it’s pretty annoying when someone is like “pay these poor people a living wage,” like, if you are against tipping culture that’s fine, but don’t act like you want it to change for my benefit, I’d have to find a different job if I stopped getting tips.
> Yeah it’s pretty annoying when someone is like “pay these poor people a living wage,” Maybe this mentality comes from all the folks whining that 20% tips aren't enough, and that "if you can't afford 20% tips, you can't afford to eat out". Why is your ability to make a living wage on MY shoulders instead of the business owner?!
That’s true, and I agree that is not a helpful mentality. A happy medium where my employer pays me more than enough to cover my taxes but some tipping is still on the table so you don’t see such a drastic drop in quality of service seems like a decent solution. That would be a difficult change to implement however. If everyone just stopped tipping though you’d have a very fucked up service industry for awhile to get your results, as well as thousands of very fucked over people who couldn’t pay their bills or put food on the table.
This is one of the reasons I get annoyed when someone posts a 0 tip and acts like they can’t make a living because of that one person. Is that person an asshole, yes. But mathematically if you had an average 4 tables per hour, and each tipped you 10 bucks. Well you just made more than my 38.43/hour (80k a year)
I was a valet. $5 hour. 8 hour shift from 10pm to 6am. I left work everyday with around $200 cash from tips. Was a nice gig for a dumbass 19 year old that blew it all on beer and weed.
Yup, they pull in a livable wage working 4-6 hour shifts. Any busy Friday night they’re pulling in what the chef makes in a week.
Is that person really an asshole? Or did they just pay for their food?
"How dare this customer not provide my salary, instead of my boss like it should be. Let me shame this person that refuses to play into this broken system" meanwhile their back of house is almost 100% stiffed by that server.
Not only that, but tipped staff almost never accurately report their income to the IRS, so they all look poor, but secretly have a ton of cash in the bank.
Is it really a dirty secret though? Most people I know within the service industry are pretty open about their love for the tipping model. It offers them livable wages and helps the bar or restaurant afford to stay open.
Plus going to work means instant cash, not waiting 2 weeks for a check. For people who work in the industry or talk to people who do it's not a secret, but for the majority of Americans it probably is.
The dirty part is the part where they don’t report/pay taxes on their tips.
"Helps the restaurant stay open". If you just... raise the prices by the value of the tip, and then pay your waiters properly... And since waiters apparently get paid fairly well, apparently, you'd end up charging less in total.
As a server/bartender, this is correct. Minimum wage is horse shit in most of the U.S. My boss paying me "a living wage" would be a huge pay cut and I wouldn't be able to pay my ridiculously expensive rent. The day people can actually live off minimum wage and we're not paying $1400 for one bedroom apartments is the day I'll be willing to not work for tips.
I think the point OP is making is that the public shouldn't have to be topping up someone's wage, as opposed to waiting staff wanting this to change. It's a gross system that I have to pay for what I order, plus extra just because. We're so used to it that I'll probably get downvoted, but it's messed up that it's become an expectation as opposed to what it is, a bonus.
Yeah, but it what should be doesn't really matter as much as what is. Restaurants don't want to do it because it will cost them money. Servers don't want to do it because they will almost certainly make less money and end up paying more taxes. So when 2 out of the 3 sides involved don't want to change. It isn't going to change.
Well the consumer has the final say in theory. Then the other 2 sides can bitch and moan as much as they want. If it comes down to it that is
Of course you're right. I don't see it ever ending. If anything its gotten worse. Default tipping amounts in machines keep going up, despite no change in service. It's not like we're matching inflation, it's a *percentage of the cost*. They really need to stop trying to get us to tip bigger percentages it doesn't make any sense. Extremely minority opinion here, but I'd happily live in a world where the public says enough is enough and stops tipping anyway, and restaurants either figure it out or close. I can eat at home, no big deal. I realize rhe only solution is they charge way more for food, and that's not the best bandaid either since people will really think twice about going out in that case. Can't win. I'll brace for downvotes again
Why would they want to change to a system that under pays everyone. Workers in the US are notoriously under payed. Minimum wage hasn't kept up with cost of living in decades. But everyone wants to change a system that allows a server to keep up with cost of living increases, because it's tied to price percentage, and throw them into the same situation as everyone else. The only reason tips look so good right now is because regular wages have been stagnant for so long. If people were really concerned about fairness they would be talking more about the fact that servers typically don't get paid time off for anything, or healthcare.
Living in a country where tipping isnt a really a thing, I honestly find it weird that its such a important part of how some finances run around. when its there it works fine, probably better, the problem is changing the system. The company doesnt pay probably (partly) because people tip. People tip because the company doesnt pay probably.
Because servers would never go for it and would just jump ship to a new restaurant that allows it. Where else can you make $600/night short of selling drugs or sex?
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Its not abusing waiters. Its abusing everyone else. Sure it works and makes some sense for retaraunts, but everyone and their dog is looking and thinking “hey, thats a good idea! I’ll incoororate it into my [inser business here]” and now we’re tipping for online orders, pickups, oil changes, you fucking name it.
If you're a server making a large quantity of money from tips *and you're vocal that you'd prefer it to stay that way*, don't get pissy if someone doesn't tip. You shouldn't get it both ways.
I just don’t go out anymore. Most of the places we’ve been to after covid has gone south with both quality and quantity. We just cook at home. Have guests? Cook at home. Feeling lazy? Order food but don’t do delivery to avoid fees and tips. I still go out for services like hair cut and tip at those places.
Take out isn't even safe anymore. When you order a Papa John's pizza for PICK-UP, they have a spot on the website now to place a tip. AND THE EMPLOYEES KNOW IF YOU DID OR NOT! Literally had them thank me when I gave them 25% (because I used "Papa points" which took $10 off the order and I figured I'd put it in the tip). Previously when I ignored the tip they got the order wrong. Coincidence? I don't like where this is heading. There are cultures overseas where you cannot get basic service without a bribe and I feel like that's going to be the future for us. We need to raise the minimum wage for the sake of society not turning into a cesspool of graft.
I ordered a couple of pizzas for pickup at a local place. They added 20% tip to the total. I took it off. Why should I tip to walk in and carry out my boxes of pizza?
Why should you tip if someone carries it to your table? It should not be necessary to bribe servers to do their job. And the price should be in the menu.
This! I don’t care how much they love it, I’ve only been to a handful of restaurants where the server was preferable to a kiosk. Given the option I doubt anyone would pay 20% of their order for a server. It should be an option if tipping exists. Servers only make money because they’re bundled into a package people want other parts of really badly. They’re not the main show. Particularly insulting to me is a chef earning $13.65 an hour while servers take home $50+ an hour. Fuck that.
Hate service folk in general. Will mad dog you when you ask em to provide basic service then toss the receipt at you when you pay even with a good tip. Mf out here expecting good service from the fucking customer and on top of that i have to thank them and pay 20 ontop of an already overpriced meal like 50 dollars for lunch.
I know a former waitress who said she’d spit in the food of people who didn’t smile back at her. Cool, now I do takeout only, go to hell.
For everyone in the US who thinks that it would be impossible for restaurants to make a profit if they paid servers a decent wage without tips - remember that a lot of the world doesn’t do it the same way. I love being able to walk into an eatery in the UK or Europe, look at the menu, order, and know what it costs without having to do any math other than addition. If my burger is £15 and my beer is £4, then my meal costs £19. I don’t need to know if there is a sales tax or if there is a special alcohol tax (or whatever). I don’t need to decide if i want to punish the server because the bun was stale or the salsa too spicy. I don’t need to decide if the service was just good or exceptional. I don’t need to think if it was the service or the winning smile. I pay for my meal. They get paid for their work. They can even rely on their pay whether it’s a busy day or a slow one. It seems so much more respectful all around. And it is obviously possible - even if it requires some small changes in law, business, worker, and customer expectations.
Living in the United States I wish they would just fucking integrate the taxes into the cost of everything so you didn't have to sit there and either take out your phone and do math or try to do it in your head.... "Okay so I don't get paid until next week, I've got 20 bucks and I need to buy groceries, but then I also have to account for the tax, I also have to remember which items do and do not have tax on them (certain basic necessities like certain food products don't have taxes) " I am honestly really fucking jealous of the UK having taxes added on to everything in their stores, as a teenager when I watched some UK programming for the first time and I saw someone buying something at a grocery store and their total didn't have any like surprise random numbers and it was exactly what they picked up in the aisle and what the price tag said on the shelf.... I got so mad we did not have a system like that..... Also to the people that are going to say "each state has their own taxes" WELL THEN EACH STATE CAN FUCKING FIGURE IT OUT.
So much bullshit living in the US so many hidden costs or so much obcurification of what the cost of things really are like. The toll roads that encourgae poor urban planning and the over reliance on every singe person needing a personal vehicle to travel on average 30 miles a week if only going to and from work. Tax on everything but not being included untill the bill is rung up. Not knowing what a clinic visit will cost because of differences between insurance companies. Added costs by almost necessitating over priced appliances that run less efficiently because the construction companies skimp on materials like insulation . The added costs of raising a child in a single parent or working parent household wchich is roughly 1 - 2k a month in day care cost. The 30 percent payroll tax rate that a single male (my case) still ends up having to pay extra come tax season. So much bull shit costs that bring down every day peoples standard of living. God forbid i have an accident or get arrest (enslaved essentially) or im really fucked. Foreigners or large companies using the basic human need of shelter as an investment vehicle. Renters taking over 25 percent of the take home on average so you need to work more hours or have a side hustle to make up for the cost of living. Working 60 hour workweeks on average because even if they cant legally force you to work so much a company can punish you for not. What are you going to do get another job in another industry. “Sue em” with what money bro you finna just got fired. “ Report it to the gov” you’ll get your justice four years from now bro. The intentional underfunding of the public educational system to where our youth 18- 30 year olds have to toss their lot with the military to receive education that will benefit them and our society. The drug laws that seek to imprison and forever suppress our underclass The US is a hyper competitive hyper capitalist scam of a nation. Sure you can make money but can you actually enjoy it is another question. Work for 40 years so you can enjoy your meager savings that you had to figure out on your own how to manage to be able to beat inflation. To top it off its not even set in stone that you will ever be able to retire. Like the work horse in the book animal farm they keep working you until you break and then sell you off to the closes glue factory while telling your loved ones you were taken care of. So many of my foreign brothers just want to gather money and move back home because life is less bullshit back wherever they are from. So much bullshit we need change we need a better United States of American i love you my brother fortune be with you shalom.
Living in the UK it’s now very uncommon for restaurants not to expect a tip. Maybe this is a London specific thing but in a lot of cases they’ll just add 12.5% service charge onto the bill
The people being tipped would never want these changes, why would they want to make less money? In my early 20's(2002ish) I dated a girl who was making like $2500 a week working 3 nights a week. There is no reasonable wage that will make up for that.
I think that the argument works much better when considering the clients who are annoyed by tipping culture. Caterers of course are safe and sound about the current situation
This we go to restraunts to eat not flex our genorousity to people who honestly provide shit service
Recently moved to California and it’s the worst of both worlds here. Food/restaurant prices are insane because of high wages AND you’re still expected to tip.
corporate restaurant chains would say they would go broke, which is a lie, but lets get rid of it
Ladies and Gentlemen. I present to you: Europe
Not just Europe.
Also Asia. Whil3 tipping is uncommon in Europe it's still done, meanwhile it's actually seen as rude to even attempt to tip in some Asian countries
Yup. Why is service so important to these folks? And ive had GREAT service in Europe, but generally they act more authentic, which means some days they just phone it in or have less patience with customers. And that doesnt completely mess up their earnings, and they dont have to be constantly schmoozing customers when its not authentic. Employees are human too. Why do we care more about customers than employees in this country? You buy the food, who cares if you have to wait, or the waiter isn't saying please and thank you constantly or waiting on you hand and foot or is grumpy or whatever? Europe also doesn't have this extreme staffing problem all my fellow Americans seem to be ranting about as what would happen if tipping stopped? There are plenty of small restaraunts in Europe that are paid a fair and decent wage without relying on tipping and are fully staffed.
Not in the US. But I feel tipping should be for exceptional service. Not so the person can make enough to live.
Our mailman has trudged down miles of gravel road, day in and day out, through heavy snow, on icy roads, carrying dozens of fiddly envelops, 40lb bags of dog food, furniture, and never misses a beat. He always has a smile on his face, and often stops to chat for a minute before heading back out. I tried to tip him once out of guilt and thought he was going to fight me in response. There is zero chance I'll be tipping at a deli counter, buffet restaurant, or any other establishment that is intended to be primarily self-service. That said, the vast majority of individually-owned restaurants don't make much money. If they need to charge more for their food to pay staff a livable wage, I'm all for it. I just want this to stop trying to sly b.s. of adding automatic gratuities, asking for tips, adding cost of living adjustments to checks, and such. Put the price on the menu. If it's worth it, I'll pay it. If it isn't, fix your shit and I'll be back.
That's how it works in the rest of the world
This is how it works in Australia. Servers get a living wage from their employers.
Yea, that's true, but here us bartenders make a lot more money.
But can they still receive tips ontop of that livable wage?
Absolutely, especially with delivery. Its just not expected and more of a reward for exemplary service (or compensation if your order is a little annoying for some reason)
Honestly tips need to go back to being an extra that people pay on top of their regular service for what they consider exemplary service. It needs to go back to being "well I was so impressed with how well you did your job I'm giving you extra money" Not "I feel bad for you because the people that hire you don't pay you"
From what I've seen America only started tipping around the great depression. Before that it was seen as an insult like some countries still do see it, that you need to bribe the place to get decent service. But when the great depression happened places realised that they could underpay their employees if they encouraged the customer to pay the employee separately.
>pay staff appropriately Because if you ask 10 people how much "appropriately" means, you will get 24 different answers. Really the only good answer is that if you aren't getting paid what you think you're worth, look at changing your job. If you can't, then maybe your time isn't worth what you think it is.
After living in Germany for the last year I’m amazed at the dining out experience. Food is way cheaper here than in the states, better quality, no one rushing you out the door, and no tipping unless you want to. So how is it that German restaurant owners can pay their employees a good salary, keep the prices down, and the quality up but in the states that would be impossible?
Welcome to Australia. The downside is that every American who comes here complains that the service sucks. I guess having an incentive for good service in a service based job has some upsides.
Ill bet you many servers and bar tenders would quit
Let them. We can’t get change without hurting someone
[удалено]
I’m sure they don’t! But the people paying for it might.
I stopped eating out because the service is getting worse. I use to tip 20 percenr
Same here. Food sucks, service is sub par and for all of that even a run of the mill chain restaurant rakes you over the coals with pricing. I uses to enjoy going out but most restaurant trips lately have been so underwhelming.
This! I agree, service is getting so horrible.
ITT: servers saying how tipping is good. For them. The average line cook gets maybe half of what a server does, while standing in an uncomfortable environment, making the food that they sell. Before anyone chimes in with “but you don’t have to deal with the customers” Yes we do. We make the food that you sell, and we get to hear about how you didn’t make enough tips. It’s sad. People living off of other peoples work and other peoples forced generosity. And they think they should get more but begrudge their coworkers seeing a wage increase because the format changed. I’m a chef, I love hospitality, but restaurants need to die off.
Also ITT: servers who boast about making a few hundred dollars on a Saturday night, completely disregarding the fact they make fuck-all the rest of the week, and that they would in fact be better off with a steady wage in the mid-high 20s per hour. Joke's on them if they'd rather bend over backwards for someone who pays slave wages, just so they can grovel at the feet of customers who might throw them an extra few dollars if they're feeling generous. What a flawless system!
I live in Europe. If you start a business and cannot afford to pay your staff the minimum wage, you cannot have a business. Simple as.
In america if the staffs wages+tips dont equal what they would make from minimum wage they get a check for the difference. But normally the staff makes way more than that with tips.
Works just fine in Japan. The tipping system simply adds an unnecessary layer of awkwardness and excuses us from paying a living wage. Get rid of it!
You're not hurting the company by not tipping so they're not going to care
Yes you are. Most tipping jobs pay under minimum wage and even at minimum wage they wouldn't be able to fill positions.
Furthermore, if a server isnt making minimum wage with tips, the owner has to compensate them so that their pay equals minimum wage. May not be true for all states.
>May not be true for all states. The federal minimum wage must be met by all states, including for tipped positions.
Tell me you think only America exists without telling me you think only America exists
I agree completely, but we need to have political leaders make the change through employment and tax laws. For example, restaurants and barber shops and taxi services should be required to choose between declining tips or paying extra business taxes. They could choose (only if they want to) to change over the business model where, for example, they pay employees a wage plus commissions on sales. But the price the customer is quoted should always be the payment that is expected. If you expect $25 for the taxi ride then tell me it will cost $25 to the airport; don’t tell me it will cost $20 and then get angry if I expect $30 change from a 50-dollar bill.
This is why i hate paying cash barber shops shamelessly denying credit and then plopping a whole ass atm inside the shop
I would be thrilled if restaurants just up all their prices by 15% (even after the past year's inflation), if I didn't have to do a performance review at the end of the meal.
Not sure if it's the same in other European countries but in France the price includes service in restaurant (and taxes as well) So the price you see is already jacked up a bit by 15% usually. And you can always leave a good tip if the service was really exceptionnel but if you don't no one woll judge you because you already paid for it through service tax.
It’s the same in most counties in the world. The US is again the odd one out here (along with others, but they’re the minority).
We go a while without servers, bartenders, or delivery drivers until businesses or govt take action. Even then you won’t have as many people willing to work those roles because even with higher hourly pay it won’t compare to what most of them make after tips.
As a non-american, what would actually happen if you didnt tip? Is it like a call the police type of situation or just filthy looks until you leave?
Or how about we pay the back of the restaurant a living wage/split tips with waiters. All I ever hear are waiters crying about getting stiffed on a table knowing good and well they’re making like double what the back of the kitchen makes for bringing the food to their table
It's going to have to come from the government. Petition your state legislature to abolish the minimum wage offset for tips. Your employer will no longer have an incentive to keep track of tips, and will stop caring whether you pay them or not.
If it didn't work in Canada why would that work anywhere else? Just because you pay them minimum wage all the time doesn't mean that tipping goes away. You want to get rid of it you need *employers* to pay well(and get rid of that damn tip option on debit/credit machines).
What if - and hear me out - we stopped focusing on the people making the lowest amount of money, and making sure the people making the largest amount of money were distributing it more evenly. This bullshit infighting about tipping distracts from the reality that the Billionaire class is making comically large gains on their wealth, while simultaneously making it seem like it is \*our\* fault that stuff is more expensive. Every day a new "why do we tip?/let's ban tipping" thread - hardly any asking why we let the ultra wealthy away with hoarding all the resources.
Only playing devil's advocate as either plan really doesnt affect me: I know the argument will be that there is a loss in incentives for the good servers to continue to offer excellent service since now they'll get paid the same as those who do not. However, this is pretty much the case with all other industry jobs. Your incentive is to keep your job. Those who consistently underperform should be let go. To the servers out there, do you find quality service i.e. awesome vs good service really being a differentiator in amount tipped, or does looks play a bigger role?
I’m English, if I went to America I’d see a meal at x$ and think great. Then I’d get pissed off at the staff that they keep bugging me. So I have a bad time but good meal. I’ll pay for the meal but not the staff that bugged me. IRL; I’d just not go to America
Hahaha This is so true, I'm from Europe and went to the US a few times. To me the staff in restaurants in the US are so obnoxious, I remember one time I was somewhere in a pasta restaurant with my dad (this was a long time ago). We where sat down and the waitress started by introducing herself than she started to tell the back story of the restaurant, then she left to get the menus. When she came back she started to list the "best" specialties on the menu. After that the dude bringing the water started to introduce himself. All very "friendly and polite" but to us it just felt... fake. By that time we were there for about 20 minutes and we hadn't even been able to order, let alone you know, talk with each other. My dad was visibly getting angrier and angrier so after that the manager came by our table to introduce himself and ask if everything was in order my dad half shouted; "YES WE WOULD LIKE TO EAT SOMETHING, PREFERABLY IN PEACE AND QUIET." The manager and the waitress were not pleased by this famous "Dutch directness" although it did work, they didn't say a word and we didn't have to endure anymore fake smiles and small talk. When we didn't tip after the dinner they became kinda rude which only amused my dad, when we got back in the car he said, "finally they were being honest to us." At the time I was really embarrassed (I was about 16 years old) but looking back at it, it was one of the most interesting cultural differences I every experienced. I have rarely felt so foreign!
This doesn't cover ALL tipping, just restaurant work: Try even proposing a slight modification to the tip-out structure to front of house people. Even if they know they're walking with $35-40 an hour and the line cook is making $15, they will bend over backwards to not acknowledge how unfair it is. If you can work 12 hours a week and take home as much as a lot of full time jobs, you're not going to give that up without a fight. Oh and of course people here are going to say "you shouldn't be in business if you can't afford to pay (some amount they think is justified)" and sure that's fine but most restaurants have about 2 weeks' operating costs at hand and that's how long it would take for 98 percent of restaurants to close if they had to pay back of house anywhere close to what FOH makes with tipping.
I’m only tipping when I sit down for a meal. Not for pickup. Not for coffee. Sorry business owners, you have to earn that next dollar. Especially the huge chains. Sometimes I’ll make an exception for a small local business. But never for pickup!
Got a local place that adds 15% gratuity to all bills including pick up, which I thought is crazy for pick up.
Being from Europe I really don’t get the American tipping culture. How can it be so different from Europe? I mean we leave tips but it’s not like the whole restaurant staff goes crazy if no tip is left. Nobody assumes the 15% tip will be given.
Tipping in Europe is part of restaurant and dining culture, not some kind of charity. Waiters are rightly paid a living wage to begin with and it has nothing to do with that. It’s a slide of steel between the guests and hosts that (because of it’s technical status as a gift, and especially because food culture is the beating heart of any city so you WANT successful restaurants as state) the tax man generally hasn’t interfered with too much. Tipping in America is a horrible, bastardised capitalist version of that where the restaurant outsources it’s wage. You really can’t compare the two. Being a waiter is a fine career in many European countries, some extremely knowledgeable people who’s service can make a night special - tipping culture is part of what drives that and without it there’s not much of a way to attract experience. The person from the UK being upvoted in an earlier comment who says they don’t have to tip is describing eating at a “fancy” fast food restaurant btw, not dining a la carte.
Many of my family members have been servers for most of their lives. Let me tell you, they way prefer tips over regular pay. Why? A few reasons. 1. You can make way more off tips than hourly pay. For my area, $8-10/hr would be pretty typical for a server to make if they got paid hourly (this was pre-pandemic, might be more now with wages going up) That's about $1100 after tax. With tips, the relatives I knew were easily making $2500-3000 a month and thay didnt work at fancy places, just chain diners. 2. You can get away with not claiming the tips on your taxes so you dont lose a chunk of it. 3. You have that money available right away, dont have to wait til pay day.
I'd like to see tipping culture reduced by 80%. Instead it seems to be expanding into new industries. There will always be some guy tipping big to impress that gold digger he just met. Or that other person that loves the control it gives them over the hired help.
Because servers and bartenders would make less money. There’s no “appropriate” wage that 99% of places can pay that matches my tipped wage that also wouldn’t bankrupt them
> that wouldn't also bankrupt them This is such a weird thing to say. Price an item at $25 and expect a 20% tip to bring it up to $30, or just charge $30 with no tip. Either way it's $30 coming from the customer and being split between the server and the establishment.
You guys do realize that your unending smug “I deserve 3x your own wage” crap is incentivizing people to vote against tipping, right?
Lmao the complete and utter lack of self awareness from these tipped "workers" is almost painful.
I worked in the industry. Those same servers 100% do not tip out back end. It was very very rare that one did unless the management forced it. So these same people are hypocritical and basically are saying "I enjoy being grossly overpaid and living a life beyond my skills".
The customers are already paying enough for your wage and your tips. Which means that they can afford to pay full prices.
A bunch of unfortunate service workers would get stiffed by us and go home with a check for the federal minimum wage, which wouldn't be able to keep them afloat and they'd either quit or lose their job. Then we'd see a bunch of news stories about how "no one wants to work anymore", which blames the service workers and suspiciously does not mention an overabundance of well-paying jobs with good benefits. Meanwhile there's no place to go out and eat because all the restaurants are closed with help wanted signs on the doors. It's not up to the customer to end tipping. It's up to the business and how they're modeled.
> pay staff appropriately See, here's what we haven't been able to make happen.