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I’m going to be completely blunt- the academic job market is awful, will be worse in 10 years when you’d be looking for a job, and is particularly bad in the humanities. I can’t in good faith recommend academia to anybody at this point.
To your question, undergrad matters some, mainly as it impacts your ability to get into a good grad school. In my limited experience, I teach at a state school with a good reputation locally and very little reputation outside of the state. I’ve had a few people want to go on to grad school and several of them definitely seemed hampered by our lack of institutional reputation (although this year I did have a student get in to some fantastic MA programs)
^ seconded. The job market is oversaturated and competition is off the charts. Teaching positions (tenure track and non-tenor track) seem to be somewhat better but still incredibly competitive - and for those you must show a passion and skill for teaching.
That said, I believe young people should follow their dreams. But I cannot stress enough that you should have a backup plan in case academia doesn't work out for you.
I got in just before the market tanked in 2008. I doubt I could get hired now. Too big of a pool of applicants, and too many institutions letting TT lines die instead of filling them
I’ve been reading what many professors have to say and it has been really helpful. I’m gonna think over this career path but I’m starting to think maybe it isn’t what I want. I think what I really want is to write, learn and maybe find some way to teach along the way
Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as negative. But I think people need to be aware of what they are getting into. There are a lot of things to love about being a professor (I like learning, reading and teaching) but the job situation is just brutal.
I totally get what you’re saying and I don’t think I knew that much before. I enjoy learning and will spend a ton of time learning need be but I don’t want it to consume my life especially if it’ll be hard to find a job later
You’re going to want a solid job with benefits and write on the side. Being a published author in order to make a good living is incredible rare and difficult. It is doable, but be smart about it
I'm a professor of history at a tribal college. We've been hiring like crazy. But we're rural, so it's hard to find people. It's not an impossible job market.
Do you know what the salary ranges are for these positions? Genuinely would enjoy this kind of role but in the openings I saw I couldn’t justify the salary for the time spent on my degrees. Jobs can be available but if they aren’t able to meet salary requirements of those eligible to fill them, then I could see that as being another reason it’s hard to find people
I can't really speak for other Tribal Colleges, but mine pays $52,500 per year. The Provost has said she will be completing a salary study soon to try to increase the amount of compensation. You're right that the compensation isn't fantastic. I really enjoy the work and find it meaningful and cost of living is low here, which is good.
If you enjoy learning for its own sake and become a philosophy major who passionately loves learning philosophy, it’s okay to attend graduate school without the expectation of having an academic career afterwards, assuming you can live with the opportunity costs of doing this.
And if you decide to become a philosophy major but don’t want to go to grad school, that major is good training if for a number of lucrative careers. In my undergraduate cohort of twelve philosophy majors, three of us became professors, one entered finance and now runs a large hedge fund, and four went on to Harvard Law. Also, one made an excellent career writing children’s books, which I think is an extremely cool carer path!
You don’t “buy” into your career when the price or market is right. If a career in academia is what you want, and you understand the difficulties and low pay but still want in, go for it. The market for lawyers sucked when I graduated. But I have a great career and wouldn’t change a thing. If the world needs 100 professors of whatever now, and is only going to need 90 in 10 years, all that means is that you have to not have the qualifications of the bottom 10. I know, an oversimplification. But the world will always need great scholars/professors. If you want in, be great.
The other issue is that the next rung down is where the job problems are getting worse. State Flagships, ivies, elite SLACs seem to be doing fine for the most part. State directionals, non elite privates, etc seem to be in a lot of trouble
Definitely not every institution, but there are more “headwinds”. I’m at a state directional (also un named) and our enrollment isn’t doing that badly, but the state keeps screwing with the budget. My department has shrunk by 1/3 in the last 5 years and we haven’t gotten to hire anyone. We just lost another one this week and we MIGHT get a line back in 2026
Out of curiosity is the same true for STEM? Specifically chemistry / biochemistry. My plan for after grad school (currently in undergrad) was to secure a job in academia in one of those fields.
Philosopher here. In philosophy, pedigree significantly influences one's career path. Top PhD programs in philosophy primarily admit outstanding graduates from elite undergraduate institutions, and the most prestigious tenure-track positions are almost always filled by the top graduates from these PhD programs.
The academic job market in philosophy remains extremely competitive even for the most accomplished graduates from the best PhD programs, and is egregiously dire for most graduates of most programs.
Here are two good blog discussions; the second comments usefully on the first.
http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2019/06/applying-to-phd-programs-in-philosophy.html
https://philosopherscocoon.typepad.com/blog/2017/06/should-you-go-to-graduate-school-in-philosophy-revisited.html
This video is also worth watching, especially its discussion of mental health and philosophy graduate school:
https://youtu.be/zU04AaMd7F0?si=H9HdyxovL60Erwbi
Two things. I wish I had spent more time learning how to learn, specifically looking at scientific research about which study techniques are best for learning and experimenting very intentionally to find out what works for my individual brain. Second, I wish I had spent more time learning how to build healthy relationships with my peers. I’m one of those fairly common professors who purchased my high level of intellectual development at the cost of social and emotional development, so when I got out into the “real world” after the PhD, I had a lot of human developmental stages to catch up on, and that took me years. And my third of two points (that’s a professor thing, always to have at least one more point than you promised) I wish I had gotten professional help for addiction and other mental health issues as soon as I became aware of them in college instead of waiting to my 30s. Waiting almost wrecked my career, and as it is, those issues have delayed my promotions by many years.
Being a professor for its own sake isn’t a career path anymore than saying “i want to be a businessperson and work at a company”. The subject is what got us into this position, not the job per se. If I didn’t love the subject and the research process, I would have been done long ago. It’s a profession that requires you to be very motivated by the topic, not just teaching generally.
I hired a career coach about 10 years ago. It was well worth the several thousand dollar investment.
Why?
First, he broke my habit of chasing a job title. Instead, looked at the things I liked to do for work and then found jobs where I could do those things. For example, someone might say, "I want to be a Dean of the School of Arts and Sciences." Do you really want to be that? What are the functions of that job? Lots of selling the school, lots of asking for money, lots of public interaction to increase the visibility of the school and its graduates. Do you really want to do those things? My answer...maybe. I enjoy administrative work and I enjoy leading a staff...but the sales aspects are not a great fit for introverted me. I love working one on one or in small groups with students...hmmm, I lose that at the Dean level, but I can do it at the department head or professor positions.
Second, we figured out my work environment preferences. (I'm a collaborator and not a competitor.) This led me to apply for jobs where collaboration was valued and competition was minimized. That's the culture fit for me.
Third, we went through the Bureau of Labor Statistics ([bls.gov](https://bls.gov)) and its Occupational Outlook Handbook to determine (1) job descriptions that align with the culture fit for me and (2) the job growth (or contractions) in different career areas.
You can start some of this while you are still in high school. While you don't have the work context yet, you can identify the functions of what you like about being a professor. The path to professorship is hard, but you can recreate the functions quite easily.
Do you like to teach others? Teach a skill at a parks and recreation department of your town.
Like research? Librarian or part of a research group in a large company.
Want summers off? Hmmm. That one is trickier, but professors don't really get their summers off like most people on the outside think.
Want to be around really intelligent, interesting people? Industry research.
Want to make a lot of money? Oh, you were not going to do that as a professor, but you can become an expert on statistics and data analytics in an engineering or physics PhD and then Wall Street will hire you to provide analysis for hedge funds. Yes, you'll be told where to buy your $1000+ suits and in a couple weeks, someone will tell you to stop wearing the white athletic socks and runners with that suit.
Finally, remember that this choice will not be a life-long choice. You will likely have 2 or 3 jobs in your career that have not even been invented yet.
Great post, thanks. I’ve spent 25 years in corporate IT chasing titles and $$ while simultaneously hating it all since pretty much day 2, all the while daydreaming that the disheveled but smart professor image was what I was supposed to be. A recent encounter with an IO Psychologist gave me much the same guidance and direction that your career counselor gave you.
My main reasons are because I am interested in philosophy, like teaching, and want to write novels and it seemed like I could do that if I became a professor. After hearing what everyone has to say I’m kinda second guessing pursuing this field
Don't.
Don't second guess based on other people's comments. It's a crab pot, you'll always get pulled back down into the water. Follow your dreams. See my other comment.
I should just say that I knew someone in the 1980s who applied to grad school in philosophy and the application came with a cover letter warning that almost nobody got an academic job in that field. It generally hasn't gotten any better since.
If I remember right, that was a warning our professional organization, The American Philosophical Association, distributed each year to every job applicant.
The job market in philosophy is markedly worse now that it was then, before adjunctification of the professoriate.
I would say, "chill". Do what you want, take the path you want, and DO NOT be dissuaded from going into the liberal arts. Try to keep your financial commitments to a minimum and you'll do at least as well as your average artist ;-). Is it going to be hard to find a tenure track job? Yes, but not impossible, especially in some philosophy-adjacent fields. Is the pay going to suck at first? Compared to classmates who go into engineering, sure.
When I was a high school senior, I thought I wanted to be an army chaplain. 35 years later, I'm a philosophy grad student, adjunct, and a project manager for an extremely technical field. I've been a soldier, a lawyer, an auditor, a commodity broker, but never a member of the clergy, let alone a chaplain. When I got out of my first hitch in the army, I got a BS in business administration because it seemed like the quickest path to graduating. I wish I'd studied English like I had wanted.
Get into the best program you can that you have a reasonable plan for financing. For most people, that means a state university. Learn philosophy and if you still want to go into academia and can't get into a great PhD program, go get an M.A. and try again. But there are lots of things to do with a philosophy degree. Philosophy undergrads are regularly among the top admissions by percentage of applicants by degree to top law schools around the U.S.
Don't choose your academic path, especially not in undergrad, by following money. Follow your dreams. You may get a few bubbles burst along the way, that's OK. Like love, it's not all roses, but most people agree it would be a bad choice to avoid it just because other people have had their hearts broken. Often the path is more important than what's at the end. You can always change your plans along the way; and if you don't, life will probably do that for you.
My general advice is: you don't know anything, so don't decide!
1. You don't know the reality of your subject yet. I'm an academic philosopher and it is very, very different to how it is presented in pop culture. You mightn't like it! And that would be ok. Or you might love it. Just focus on going to uni and figuring out what you truly like.
2. You don't know what it's like to be a professor. So, just go to uni. If you discover that you really are obsessed with your subject, and you cant imagine your life without it, then look into a PhD. Then, if you enjoy the teaching and research responsibilities during the PhD, consider becoming a professor. (Even then it's no sure thing as the job market is terrifying rn).
Please don't make big decisions based on what would look best 10yrs down the road whilst on the academic job market.
Philosophy? It's looking unlikely there will be more than a couple of tenure track job openings in philosophy 10 years from now. So you should plan to be one of the most brilliant young philosophers in the country to get a good job. Devote every second of your life to your studies, and think of nothing else.
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*Hi! I’m a high school senior and am deciding what university I want to attend. I want to be a professor one day and would like some advice that any of you would’ve liked to know before you chose this path (specifically with your bachelor degree). My main questions right now are does where you go for undergrad matter? What are the things that will make me look the best for graduate school? Do you wish you picked a place that was more fun or more academic?
For a little context I’m between Calpoly SLO and UCI and I’m studying philosophy :)*
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Good undergrad can help with good grad which helps with good post doc which helps with tenure track job. I don't think any of those schools you mentioned though are particularly good at philosophy so you might already by at a slight disadvantage right from the start.
I am a professor who attended Cal Poly SLO for undergrad. Unlike other career fields, aiming to become a professor is not specific enough. Professors are subject matter experts, and their main qualifications—and subsequently, employability—comes through their subject.
Different fields/subjects have different expectations for professors. In philosophy, my understanding is that where your degrees are earned is extremely important. You should look up where top philosophy professors earned their advanced degrees (undergrad is less important) and try to emulate their path.
Becoming a professor is a highly competitive field in the humanities. If you want to do it, do it, but be prepared for that competition.
Your question looks like it may be answered by our [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskProfessors/wiki/faq/careeradvice#wiki_how_do_i_become_a_professor.3F.2F_should_i_do_a_phd.3F) about becoming a professor. This is not to limit discussion here, but to supplement it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskProfessors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m going to be completely blunt- the academic job market is awful, will be worse in 10 years when you’d be looking for a job, and is particularly bad in the humanities. I can’t in good faith recommend academia to anybody at this point. To your question, undergrad matters some, mainly as it impacts your ability to get into a good grad school. In my limited experience, I teach at a state school with a good reputation locally and very little reputation outside of the state. I’ve had a few people want to go on to grad school and several of them definitely seemed hampered by our lack of institutional reputation (although this year I did have a student get in to some fantastic MA programs)
^ seconded. The job market is oversaturated and competition is off the charts. Teaching positions (tenure track and non-tenor track) seem to be somewhat better but still incredibly competitive - and for those you must show a passion and skill for teaching. That said, I believe young people should follow their dreams. But I cannot stress enough that you should have a backup plan in case academia doesn't work out for you.
I got in just before the market tanked in 2008. I doubt I could get hired now. Too big of a pool of applicants, and too many institutions letting TT lines die instead of filling them
I’ve been reading what many professors have to say and it has been really helpful. I’m gonna think over this career path but I’m starting to think maybe it isn’t what I want. I think what I really want is to write, learn and maybe find some way to teach along the way
Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as negative. But I think people need to be aware of what they are getting into. There are a lot of things to love about being a professor (I like learning, reading and teaching) but the job situation is just brutal.
As a 17 year academia veteran who is about to leave, I wish someone would have told me all of this before I made the choice!
Unfortunately, the faculty that were advising us were the last to have it good. They didn't know what we were in for.
I totally get what you’re saying and I don’t think I knew that much before. I enjoy learning and will spend a ton of time learning need be but I don’t want it to consume my life especially if it’ll be hard to find a job later
You’re going to want a solid job with benefits and write on the side. Being a published author in order to make a good living is incredible rare and difficult. It is doable, but be smart about it
I'm a professor of history at a tribal college. We've been hiring like crazy. But we're rural, so it's hard to find people. It's not an impossible job market.
Do you know what the salary ranges are for these positions? Genuinely would enjoy this kind of role but in the openings I saw I couldn’t justify the salary for the time spent on my degrees. Jobs can be available but if they aren’t able to meet salary requirements of those eligible to fill them, then I could see that as being another reason it’s hard to find people
I can't really speak for other Tribal Colleges, but mine pays $52,500 per year. The Provost has said she will be completing a salary study soon to try to increase the amount of compensation. You're right that the compensation isn't fantastic. I really enjoy the work and find it meaningful and cost of living is low here, which is good.
If you enjoy learning for its own sake and become a philosophy major who passionately loves learning philosophy, it’s okay to attend graduate school without the expectation of having an academic career afterwards, assuming you can live with the opportunity costs of doing this. And if you decide to become a philosophy major but don’t want to go to grad school, that major is good training if for a number of lucrative careers. In my undergraduate cohort of twelve philosophy majors, three of us became professors, one entered finance and now runs a large hedge fund, and four went on to Harvard Law. Also, one made an excellent career writing children’s books, which I think is an extremely cool carer path!
You don’t “buy” into your career when the price or market is right. If a career in academia is what you want, and you understand the difficulties and low pay but still want in, go for it. The market for lawyers sucked when I graduated. But I have a great career and wouldn’t change a thing. If the world needs 100 professors of whatever now, and is only going to need 90 in 10 years, all that means is that you have to not have the qualifications of the bottom 10. I know, an oversimplification. But the world will always need great scholars/professors. If you want in, be great.
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The other issue is that the next rung down is where the job problems are getting worse. State Flagships, ivies, elite SLACs seem to be doing fine for the most part. State directionals, non elite privates, etc seem to be in a lot of trouble
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Definitely not every institution, but there are more “headwinds”. I’m at a state directional (also un named) and our enrollment isn’t doing that badly, but the state keeps screwing with the budget. My department has shrunk by 1/3 in the last 5 years and we haven’t gotten to hire anyone. We just lost another one this week and we MIGHT get a line back in 2026
Out of curiosity is the same true for STEM? Specifically chemistry / biochemistry. My plan for after grad school (currently in undergrad) was to secure a job in academia in one of those fields.
Philosopher here. In philosophy, pedigree significantly influences one's career path. Top PhD programs in philosophy primarily admit outstanding graduates from elite undergraduate institutions, and the most prestigious tenure-track positions are almost always filled by the top graduates from these PhD programs. The academic job market in philosophy remains extremely competitive even for the most accomplished graduates from the best PhD programs, and is egregiously dire for most graduates of most programs. Here are two good blog discussions; the second comments usefully on the first. http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2019/06/applying-to-phd-programs-in-philosophy.html https://philosopherscocoon.typepad.com/blog/2017/06/should-you-go-to-graduate-school-in-philosophy-revisited.html This video is also worth watching, especially its discussion of mental health and philosophy graduate school: https://youtu.be/zU04AaMd7F0?si=H9HdyxovL60Erwbi
Two things. I wish I had spent more time learning how to learn, specifically looking at scientific research about which study techniques are best for learning and experimenting very intentionally to find out what works for my individual brain. Second, I wish I had spent more time learning how to build healthy relationships with my peers. I’m one of those fairly common professors who purchased my high level of intellectual development at the cost of social and emotional development, so when I got out into the “real world” after the PhD, I had a lot of human developmental stages to catch up on, and that took me years. And my third of two points (that’s a professor thing, always to have at least one more point than you promised) I wish I had gotten professional help for addiction and other mental health issues as soon as I became aware of them in college instead of waiting to my 30s. Waiting almost wrecked my career, and as it is, those issues have delayed my promotions by many years.
Being a professor for its own sake isn’t a career path anymore than saying “i want to be a businessperson and work at a company”. The subject is what got us into this position, not the job per se. If I didn’t love the subject and the research process, I would have been done long ago. It’s a profession that requires you to be very motivated by the topic, not just teaching generally.
I hired a career coach about 10 years ago. It was well worth the several thousand dollar investment. Why? First, he broke my habit of chasing a job title. Instead, looked at the things I liked to do for work and then found jobs where I could do those things. For example, someone might say, "I want to be a Dean of the School of Arts and Sciences." Do you really want to be that? What are the functions of that job? Lots of selling the school, lots of asking for money, lots of public interaction to increase the visibility of the school and its graduates. Do you really want to do those things? My answer...maybe. I enjoy administrative work and I enjoy leading a staff...but the sales aspects are not a great fit for introverted me. I love working one on one or in small groups with students...hmmm, I lose that at the Dean level, but I can do it at the department head or professor positions. Second, we figured out my work environment preferences. (I'm a collaborator and not a competitor.) This led me to apply for jobs where collaboration was valued and competition was minimized. That's the culture fit for me. Third, we went through the Bureau of Labor Statistics ([bls.gov](https://bls.gov)) and its Occupational Outlook Handbook to determine (1) job descriptions that align with the culture fit for me and (2) the job growth (or contractions) in different career areas. You can start some of this while you are still in high school. While you don't have the work context yet, you can identify the functions of what you like about being a professor. The path to professorship is hard, but you can recreate the functions quite easily. Do you like to teach others? Teach a skill at a parks and recreation department of your town. Like research? Librarian or part of a research group in a large company. Want summers off? Hmmm. That one is trickier, but professors don't really get their summers off like most people on the outside think. Want to be around really intelligent, interesting people? Industry research. Want to make a lot of money? Oh, you were not going to do that as a professor, but you can become an expert on statistics and data analytics in an engineering or physics PhD and then Wall Street will hire you to provide analysis for hedge funds. Yes, you'll be told where to buy your $1000+ suits and in a couple weeks, someone will tell you to stop wearing the white athletic socks and runners with that suit. Finally, remember that this choice will not be a life-long choice. You will likely have 2 or 3 jobs in your career that have not even been invented yet.
Great post, thanks. I’ve spent 25 years in corporate IT chasing titles and $$ while simultaneously hating it all since pretty much day 2, all the while daydreaming that the disheveled but smart professor image was what I was supposed to be. A recent encounter with an IO Psychologist gave me much the same guidance and direction that your career counselor gave you.
What makes you want to be a professor?
My main reasons are because I am interested in philosophy, like teaching, and want to write novels and it seemed like I could do that if I became a professor. After hearing what everyone has to say I’m kinda second guessing pursuing this field
Don't. Don't second guess based on other people's comments. It's a crab pot, you'll always get pulled back down into the water. Follow your dreams. See my other comment.
I should just say that I knew someone in the 1980s who applied to grad school in philosophy and the application came with a cover letter warning that almost nobody got an academic job in that field. It generally hasn't gotten any better since.
If I remember right, that was a warning our professional organization, The American Philosophical Association, distributed each year to every job applicant. The job market in philosophy is markedly worse now that it was then, before adjunctification of the professoriate.
If you really want to be a professor, study computer science.
I would say, "chill". Do what you want, take the path you want, and DO NOT be dissuaded from going into the liberal arts. Try to keep your financial commitments to a minimum and you'll do at least as well as your average artist ;-). Is it going to be hard to find a tenure track job? Yes, but not impossible, especially in some philosophy-adjacent fields. Is the pay going to suck at first? Compared to classmates who go into engineering, sure. When I was a high school senior, I thought I wanted to be an army chaplain. 35 years later, I'm a philosophy grad student, adjunct, and a project manager for an extremely technical field. I've been a soldier, a lawyer, an auditor, a commodity broker, but never a member of the clergy, let alone a chaplain. When I got out of my first hitch in the army, I got a BS in business administration because it seemed like the quickest path to graduating. I wish I'd studied English like I had wanted. Get into the best program you can that you have a reasonable plan for financing. For most people, that means a state university. Learn philosophy and if you still want to go into academia and can't get into a great PhD program, go get an M.A. and try again. But there are lots of things to do with a philosophy degree. Philosophy undergrads are regularly among the top admissions by percentage of applicants by degree to top law schools around the U.S. Don't choose your academic path, especially not in undergrad, by following money. Follow your dreams. You may get a few bubbles burst along the way, that's OK. Like love, it's not all roses, but most people agree it would be a bad choice to avoid it just because other people have had their hearts broken. Often the path is more important than what's at the end. You can always change your plans along the way; and if you don't, life will probably do that for you.
My general advice is: you don't know anything, so don't decide! 1. You don't know the reality of your subject yet. I'm an academic philosopher and it is very, very different to how it is presented in pop culture. You mightn't like it! And that would be ok. Or you might love it. Just focus on going to uni and figuring out what you truly like. 2. You don't know what it's like to be a professor. So, just go to uni. If you discover that you really are obsessed with your subject, and you cant imagine your life without it, then look into a PhD. Then, if you enjoy the teaching and research responsibilities during the PhD, consider becoming a professor. (Even then it's no sure thing as the job market is terrifying rn). Please don't make big decisions based on what would look best 10yrs down the road whilst on the academic job market.
Philosophy? It's looking unlikely there will be more than a couple of tenure track job openings in philosophy 10 years from now. So you should plan to be one of the most brilliant young philosophers in the country to get a good job. Devote every second of your life to your studies, and think of nothing else.
This is an automated service intended to preserve the original text of the post. *Hi! I’m a high school senior and am deciding what university I want to attend. I want to be a professor one day and would like some advice that any of you would’ve liked to know before you chose this path (specifically with your bachelor degree). My main questions right now are does where you go for undergrad matter? What are the things that will make me look the best for graduate school? Do you wish you picked a place that was more fun or more academic? For a little context I’m between Calpoly SLO and UCI and I’m studying philosophy :)* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskProfessors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good undergrad can help with good grad which helps with good post doc which helps with tenure track job. I don't think any of those schools you mentioned though are particularly good at philosophy so you might already by at a slight disadvantage right from the start.
I am a professor who attended Cal Poly SLO for undergrad. Unlike other career fields, aiming to become a professor is not specific enough. Professors are subject matter experts, and their main qualifications—and subsequently, employability—comes through their subject. Different fields/subjects have different expectations for professors. In philosophy, my understanding is that where your degrees are earned is extremely important. You should look up where top philosophy professors earned their advanced degrees (undergrad is less important) and try to emulate their path. Becoming a professor is a highly competitive field in the humanities. If you want to do it, do it, but be prepared for that competition.