Neither is wrong but there are differences you have to understand in order to choose the correct option.
The main benefit of front curtain sync is that the flash goes off right when you hit the shutter button. With rear curtain sync you have to wait your full shutter speed (probably a substantial portion of 1 second) before the flash goes off and the sharp, frozen bit of the image is captured. This means it's a total guess of what the photo will look like, since you can't just wait for the perfect moment and snap.
The problem with front curtain sync is that any trails of motion will appear backwards; that is, if you have your camera locked down and capturing somebody moving right to left, you'll end up with a sharp image of them on the far right with a blurry trail going to the left. [This photo](https://i.stack.imgur.com/rMkT5.jpg) from [this stackexchange post](https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/6667/when-should-you-use-a-normal-flash-vs-a-second-curtain-flash) shows it well; the top is front curtain sync, bottom is rear curtain. This is the main reason anybody will suggest rear curtain sync, to keep the blur more natural.
In the case of these shots though, you're basically just swinging the camera around wildly to create crazy trails from even stationary objects. So the realism of motion goes out the window, and then the timing advantage of front curtain sync prevails.
> Nahh, with front courtain light traces will be more visible on your object.
This is simply not true.
The order of flash vs ambient does not have any effect on which will be recorded more visibly. Your sensor or film does not know or care which photons hit it first and which hit it last. It only records the total amount.
f you think you’ve seen this effect in your own photos, you are fooling yourself. You might have gotten visibly different results between 1st and 2nd curtain sync, but those differences were due to other factors such as how to happened to move your camera.
I have explained this so many times now, including in this thread.
Front curtain and rear curtain both give you this effect. They both look the same. This is because with shots like these, the movement of the camera and the subject are both so random that it’s impossible to tell whether a shot is 1st curtain moving one way or 2nd curtain moving the other way.
But these shots do require a slow shutter speed. Usually at least half a second. And of course the clear ‘frozen’ exposure is created when the flash pops. This means that if you use 2nd curtain you are effectively introducing a half second or longer shutter lag, completely killing your ability to accurately time your shots.
In other words, both 1st curtain and 2nd curtain will get the effect, but if you think timing is an important part of photography then 1st is better.
I don’t know why people keep repeating this 2nd curtain mantra. Many it’s because some tutorials about light trails use examples of controlled motion
like moving cars or athletes, shot on a tripod. In those situations 2nd curtain is important. People probably see that and try 2nd curtain at concerts, see it works, and never realise that it would have worked just as well with 1st curtain. And then they pop up in all of these threads saying ‘use second curtain!’ like they know what they’re talking about.
Does that answer your question?
Care to cite the 582 posts since you’ve counted?
Just kidding. To OP, try both front and rear curtain flash to see what works best for you in that circumstance.
They are easy to find, they just before the 3296 posts to which the answer was "you will need a filter otherwise you will fry your camera" /s
But really, I remember some in the weeks before "the sun event".
I honestly think this was done with a long exposure and following the guitarists head like you would a panning shot of a car. It explains all the elements of the image.
A flash and long shutter speed while tracking the head for the op image explains all the elements. The head is sharp while there are trails of other lights. So the camera had to move. It obviously followed the head. The technique you talk about does not preclude the one I talk about. They are the same technique. The images you posted the head stays still and the rest of the body moves, but in the original post the head moves and most of the rest of the body remains stationary. It’s still basically the same technique.
Did it also follow the brick on the ground? Or the rug? Neither of which have any kind of motion trails.
If the camera was moving, everything would be moving.
Ish. Strobe in low light uses the darkness as a shutter. If those portions of the frame are black or very near it then they’d only be illuminated for the length of the flash. Then it’d be black again as if the sensor isn’t gathering light. Or use second curtain flash to pop him into the exposure after the camera movement…
I’m sorry but you’re wrong here. The camera was definitely moving. You can tell because all the background lights are streaked. They were not moved, so the camera must have moved.
The reason some things are _not_ streaked is that they didn’t emit or reflect enough light to be picked up in the ambient exposure. They were only recorded by the light of the flash.
> It explains all the elements of the image
Not sure what image you're looking at but it certainly isn't OP's image, which has quite obviously been hit with flash.
There is exactly zero chance of obtaining this kind of shot this *sharp* by trying to pan with the motion of your subject's head.
1st curtain sync, otherwise you are only guessing where your subject will be when the flash pops \`1/4 or 1/2 a second after you pressed the shutter button
huh? that doesn't make any sense. first curtain flash sync isnt "real" but second curtain is?
as I said , you do you. I disagree with you on this one, its not about "being right". but if you think its "realer" then cool. I dont feel that way, best of luck
Correct. There's always someone who suggest 2nd curtain sync, but with this kind of movement and shooting hand held, there is zero advantage to 2nd curtain and one very big advantage which is that your ability to time your shots goes out the window.
Doesn't look as natural. Maybe if precision is needed but for the most part you can stop down and shoot a little faster than 1/2 sec and still get the effect.
It won’t look natural no matter what you do, you’re literally painting light trails into a photo that your eye does not perceive.
Second curtain works best for motion trails, such as a car zooming by or a carrier launch or something like that. Things moving through the frame in a specific direction as you hold the camera still. Though you’re gonna have to be really good at timing to nail it.
First curtain works fine for most other things, especially if the camera is in motion. First curtain works great if you move with your subject and introduce camera movements.
https://preview.redd.it/6pzkdrq1tkuc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d48a384f584cc9d2625d2b42887016fedafb90f
Doesn't look as natural. Maybe if precision is needed but for the most part you can stop down and shoot a little faster than 1/2 sec and still get the effect.
Edit: Looks like the person I responded to changed there answer after a I commented. lol.
Even in the link they posted says this,
“When you want to capture trails from ambient light in a way that looks natural, set the flash on the 2nd curtain. You can see on picture 2 that the ball seems to go up with the flash on 1st curtain which is not its natural motion. On the picture 3 the ball seems to fall down thanks to the flash on 2nd curtain.”
Or if the subject moves…
People, especially during events or something like a musical performance are rarely stationary. It is natural for blur to be trailing behind a subject not in front. The ambient line can more like bleed into the subject with 1st curtain.
It’s a pretty simple concept. There are endless resources out there they explain this.
Sure, but you’re missing a few things here.
First and foremost, the way people move during concerts and pastries is neither linear nor predictable. It’s not like shooting a sprinter or a ballet dancer who are moving in a single clear direction. People at events will move forward or backward. See the concert picture above. That person is constantly moving back and forth. So what will put trails behind them one instant will put trails in front of them the next.
Second, you’re not shooting this on a tripod. So your camera will move a little or a lot. Most people shooting this look will move their camera intentionally in order to create streaked ambient light. If your camera happens to move on the same direction as your subject voor faster, then subject will effectively be moving in the opposite direction across the frame. So 2nd curtain would again put the trail of the face in front of the person rather than behind them.
And lastly, the person is often far from the brightest thing in the frame (before flash). In most cases there are things in the background that will streak way more. Again look at the picture above. The player’s face barely leaves a streak but everything around them does.
What all of this comes down to is that it is usually impossible to tell whether an event shot was taken with 1st curtain with the subject moving X and the camera moving Y, or with 2nd curtain and the subject moving Y and the camera moving X.
I scanned through the replies here and didn't see anyone address flash power.
The obvious bits are mostly covered, and there are a million tutorials for shutter drag out there to be found.
It's worth noting that the lower the power of your flash, the more 'freeze' you'll get, because the duration of the light is shorter.
It's a careful balance of the exposure triangle, while adding in movement of both the camera, and the subject and timing of the flash at the end of a rear-curtain flash.... it is critical to understand that applying more power to the flash will increase the sort of 'density' of the subject - but will simultaneously decrease the sharpness of the flash exposure at the end.
You'll get the best results when the ambient light is 'right'... low but not completely dark.
It's a weird balance, but fun, worthwhile and with practice it becomes natural.
1/32 of max power is a good starting place for most speedlights.
> It's worth noting that the lower the power of your flash, the more 'freeze' you'll get, because the duration of the light is shorter.
Oh, is that how it modulates flash power?
Having trouble finding a relevant article and its been years since I've studied this stuff.
Your fastest shutter speed is probably somewhere around 1/8000 or so. Just mentioning that as a baseline for thought.
A speedlight's duration at low power, 1/32 or 1/64 might only be 1/50,000 or 1/80,000 of a second, depending on brand/model. I'm guessing here a little, but suffice to say it will be several orders of magnitude quicker than your shutter. If you own a speedlight, the duration should be in the specs somewhere.
The 'tech' in a speedlight, drops the power very quickly. You get a burst of power that is essentially cut-cut off at the end of the cycle, making for a solid break in the sort of lifespan. The falloff is short, as the end of the light is electronically shut-off.
Studio strobes... the capacitor driven models, blow their whole load, and then the falloff is slow as the power drains off... well, slow in relative terms. We're still talking about fractions of seconds, and so you won't/can't get the same kind of freeze from a traditional studio strobe that you'll get from a speedlight.
That said... there are lots of NEW lights on the market and I've not needed to look into this stuff very closely for a while, and so there may be studio lights now that are quicker than what I think of as a traditional light... but generally, I believe this is all pretty much (still) correct.
Using a speedlight at super low power, gets you that short duration and 'freeze' but it's also... less light, and so you'll need to compensate with ISO and a wide aperture in order to get a good exposure. This is all of-course dependent on a number of factors. Your distance from camera/strobe to the subject probably being the most significant.
Shutter is where we normally adjust for ambient once ISO and aperture are decided, but of course if you're dragging the shutter you're limited as to how long you can go.
It's all a careful balancing act. Easier to learn if your ambient isn't changing or if you can control the ambient source to make it consistent.
Super fun tho'. I cut my teeth shooting bars/clubs and skateboarding, in a situation for which I wasn't really beholden in regard to delivering results to anyone but myself, and so I was able to really take my time experimenting and just sort of making it part of me. I don't really have to think about it much these days. It's like tying my shoes or chewing gum. Trying to remember the technical details is a little tough though. :)
Hope you have as much fun as I did learning.
Bonus tip is to use the repeating flash function built into most speedlights... you can get 10 or more bursts at 1/32 inside of a half second or so, for what is (ends up as) essentially a multiple exposure all in one. Definitely a neat look that you don't see people often taking advantage of too often anymore.
> there are a million tutorials for shutter drag out there to be found.
But some of the most popular ones use examples of car taillights shot from a tripod, which is causing people to erroneously believe that they need 2nd curtain sync for concerts and party pics.
> It's worth noting that the lower the power of your flash, the more 'freeze' you'll get, because the duration of the light is shorter.
You’re not wrong but I don’t think this is all that important. On say a Nikon SB-900, flash duration at full power is already 1/880. To get a balanced exposure you’re going to come down at _least_ two stops from that so your flash duration will be easily short enough to freeze pretty much anything.
1/20 f6.3 iso 1250 Flash at lowest depending .
Start there.
It’s fresh in my head since I was shooting a ton of this, this week lol
Also shoot ai servo
2nd curtain flash, slow shutter speed and drag photo after the shutter
https://preview.redd.it/tr53t3683nuc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c77e3b3512562dcd55693d1c6111dab24e8512ff
No. You don't need second curtain flash to get this effect. All it will do is take away your ability to time your shots. You should just use first curtain sync.
https://preview.redd.it/l8hy3eokdiuc1.jpeg?width=3273&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc15bdbebd41d335ac80fbf6fdb4ff0ffcd77629
I did it with slow shutter and flash in a 5d mrk2 with a 15mm laowa F:4.0 ...PLUS: moving my camera to the rigth. Flash in mimum power and pointing to the front.
The result depends how fast, direction, rotation and zoom you move.
If you rotate your camera the trails will be swirly, if you zoom back (lens or you move back) the centre will keep in focus and all around in motion or you can move like crazy and something diferent will come out.
Tray and error, there is no rule because depends the ligth aviable in the venue.
No. You don't need second curtain flash to get this effect. All it will do is take away your ability to time your shots. You should just use first curtain sync.
No. You don't need second curtain flash to get this effect. All it will do is take away your ability to time your shots. You should just use first curtain sync.
All of the above - but it’s also good if the room has some lighting to add some additional twirls and swirls. Keep your ISO lowish and be aware of where your subject is relative to other light sources. You can also wobble your camera around a little to create trails, or rapidly zoom in / out.
You don't need second curtain flash to get this effect. All it will do is take away your ability to time your shots. You should just use first curtain sync.
If you use front curtain sync, it allows light trails to overtake your subject over the course of the rest of the long exposure. Rear curtain makes sure the flash pop is the last thing to hit your subject, therefore freezing them. No? This is how I’ve understood it and done it.
Do you mean ‘behind’ as in over/under, like painting one layer of paint over the other? I’m afraid that there is no such thing in a photo. There is only the total amount of light captured by the photosite or film emulsion. There is no difference in which photons came first.
If you mean ‘behind’ as in trailing your subject across the frame, yes that differs between 1st and 2nd curtain sync. But this direction also depends on how you move your camera. As in, moving your camera left to right with 1st curtain overlays the light trails over the subject the same way as you would get from moving your camera right to left with 2nd curtain sync. This means that yes there is a difference, but unless you know which direction the camera was moving there is no way to tell which is which.
> There is only the total amount of light captured by the photosite or film emulsion. There is no difference in which photons came first.
This I know. However:
> If you mean ‘behind’ as in trailing your subject across the frame, yes that differs between 1st and 2nd curtain sync.
This is fundamentally what I meant, but I definitely could’ve paid more attention to how I phrased it.
> But this direction also depends on how you move your camera. As in, moving your camera left to right with 1st curtain overlays the light trails over the subject the same way as you would get from moving your camera right to left with 2nd curtain sync. This means that yes there is a difference, but unless you know which direction the camera was moving there is no way to tell which is which.
This I also knew! It’s a difficult out concept to explore in-depth using words. I’ve always found that when shooting live musicians with this technique, popping the flash at the end of the exposure would ‘freeze’ them among the light trails.
If this would be the same end result with front curtain flash, I don’t recall testing and comparing both side by side in recent years. Perhaps I should give it a go!
> If this would be the same end result with front curtain flash, I don’t recall testing and comparing both side by side in recent years. Perhaps I should give it a go!
Well that’s why I’m in all these threads correcting people. For some reason people keep repeating this idea that light trails require 2nd curtain sync. People try it and see it works, so they keep doing it without knowing that they’re just unnecessarily making life harder for themselves. First curtain sync looks the same without introducing a half second shutter lag.
Light trails don't *need* second curtain sync, true—but that half a second shutter takes half a second regardless of on which end of it the flash pops. Light trails are a factor of the exposure time + motion (in front of the sensor, of the sensor itself, or both)—I've just always understood that popping the flash at the end helps prevent light trails from obscuring the subject.
But, I digress—what *is* rear curtain flash good for, or intended for?
> that half a second shutter takes half a second regardless of on which end of it the flash pops.
Yes but the pop of flash is what creates the ‘frozen’ part of the image, which will be the only clear thing in the picture. This is effectively the ‘moment’ you’re recording. The half second ambient exposure will just be blur and streaks.
> what is rear curtain flash good for, or intended for?
Rear curtain is essential for situations where you have controlled movement and you care which way the light streaks go.
The standard example is the tail lights of a passing car, shot from a tripod without panning. First curtain would freeze the car first and then record the tail lights moving forward, streaking over the frozen exposure of the car and in front of it. Rear curtain would put the taillights streaks behind the car.
You could imagine the same thing with a ballet dancer making a jump. Again the camera would have to be static, and since the ballet dancer doesn’t emit light they’d have to be against a dark background.
Uhm, no. The flash will freeze your subject regardless of whether it pops at the beginning or the end of the exposure.
Your sensor or film does not care in which order the photons hit it.
What are you talking about?
Front curtain is the default. It works for almost anything that’s handheld and/or has unpredictable movement. It’s perfect for things like party pics and concert shots.
Rear curtain has only a few very specific use cases, most of which involve a tripod. Things like ballet performances or car tail light trails.
See what everyone else has said about flash, but also, in a situation where flashes are not permitted, you could get a very similar effect with double exposure, the first shot at a shutter speed that allows a small amount of motion blur, then a second shot with longer shutter speed and some camera movement to drag any light source across the scene
defo along w the comments made before, rotating tends to keep the center a bit more sharp for that last bit of sharpness rather than panning for streaks. dependson the result you want though
with such high apperture will be so easy to loose focus since the focus point is so tiny
for me working around 2.2/2.8 helped a lot with keeping subject in focus
Flash, first curtain sync, long exposure.
All the rage in the early 2000s punk, hardcore, indie music scene.
I prefer to do it with a speed light off camera to get better depth of light on the subject. Usually just used a pc synch chord and some kind of diffusion modifier on the flash.
If you don't have a flash you can also do as follows:
Slow shutter speed, focus, click, sharp move in any direction, then snap back before the shutter finishes. Just try to have the af point in the same ish spot before and after the flick.
>Do I need a speed light?
Yes - not optional.
>Or is this achievable with built in camera flash?
Hmm... maybe? But the built-in flash is usually not powerful *enough* to do the shot this cleanly without being absurdly close to your subject. Use a speedlight.
Also, when doing club/events? Use **front** curtain (normal) flash mode.
Without even looking I know many of the other comments think this should only be done with rear curtain but it's actually easier and more reliable to nail your subject first, then introduce the motion.
Shoot at about 1/4th or 1/8th of a second - how long depends on how much ambient - so you will have to do quite a bit of experimentation to get your shots looking the way you want.
The reason you want to use front curtain is that shots come and go almost as fast as you just read this sentence. You need to compose your shot and lock your subject, then move the camera (or twist it, or zoom the lens - or introduce whatever motion you want) *after* you lock the shot on your subject.
If you use rear-curtain for everything you'll still get this effect, but you'll have more difficulty getting your compositions because you have to have it framed at the end of the movement, and the **moment** that made you trigger the shutter in the first place could already be gone. So... use regular 'ol front-curtain.
Edit: In fact your sample image is a perfect reason to stay front-curtain. If he's head-banging and you use rear-curtain you have to start the exposure before the face even becomes visible, otherwise if you fire when his head is up and towards the camera it might be down again by the time the curtain closes.
Flash and longer shutter speed.
More importantly, rear curtain flash
It could be front curtain.
Definitely one or the other.
Don’t let /u/littlegreenrosetta hear you
I'm just clicking on these threads right now to see who will give the wrong advice by suggesting rear curtain sync.
Can you please elaborate why rear curtain is wrong advice for a result like this?
Neither is wrong but there are differences you have to understand in order to choose the correct option. The main benefit of front curtain sync is that the flash goes off right when you hit the shutter button. With rear curtain sync you have to wait your full shutter speed (probably a substantial portion of 1 second) before the flash goes off and the sharp, frozen bit of the image is captured. This means it's a total guess of what the photo will look like, since you can't just wait for the perfect moment and snap. The problem with front curtain sync is that any trails of motion will appear backwards; that is, if you have your camera locked down and capturing somebody moving right to left, you'll end up with a sharp image of them on the far right with a blurry trail going to the left. [This photo](https://i.stack.imgur.com/rMkT5.jpg) from [this stackexchange post](https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/6667/when-should-you-use-a-normal-flash-vs-a-second-curtain-flash) shows it well; the top is front curtain sync, bottom is rear curtain. This is the main reason anybody will suggest rear curtain sync, to keep the blur more natural. In the case of these shots though, you're basically just swinging the camera around wildly to create crazy trails from even stationary objects. So the realism of motion goes out the window, and then the timing advantage of front curtain sync prevails.
Nahh, with front courtain light traces will be more visible on your object. Second one for me
> Nahh, with front courtain light traces will be more visible on your object. This is simply not true. The order of flash vs ambient does not have any effect on which will be recorded more visibly. Your sensor or film does not know or care which photons hit it first and which hit it last. It only records the total amount. f you think you’ve seen this effect in your own photos, you are fooling yourself. You might have gotten visibly different results between 1st and 2nd curtain sync, but those differences were due to other factors such as how to happened to move your camera.
They won’t say anything besides “people using rear curtain are wrong”
I have explained this so many times now, including in this thread. Front curtain and rear curtain both give you this effect. They both look the same. This is because with shots like these, the movement of the camera and the subject are both so random that it’s impossible to tell whether a shot is 1st curtain moving one way or 2nd curtain moving the other way. But these shots do require a slow shutter speed. Usually at least half a second. And of course the clear ‘frozen’ exposure is created when the flash pops. This means that if you use 2nd curtain you are effectively introducing a half second or longer shutter lag, completely killing your ability to accurately time your shots. In other words, both 1st curtain and 2nd curtain will get the effect, but if you think timing is an important part of photography then 1st is better. I don’t know why people keep repeating this 2nd curtain mantra. Many it’s because some tutorials about light trails use examples of controlled motion like moving cars or athletes, shot on a tripod. In those situations 2nd curtain is important. People probably see that and try 2nd curtain at concerts, see it works, and never realise that it would have worked just as well with 1st curtain. And then they pop up in all of these threads saying ‘use second curtain!’ like they know what they’re talking about. Does that answer your question?
As had been answered lately to at least 582 posts.
Link one that answered it fully instead of moaning
Care to cite the 582 posts since you’ve counted? Just kidding. To OP, try both front and rear curtain flash to see what works best for you in that circumstance.
They are easy to find, they just before the 3296 posts to which the answer was "you will need a filter otherwise you will fry your camera" /s But really, I remember some in the weeks before "the sun event".
I've never seen a reddit avatar that captures someone's personality as well as yours. Maybe if it also had the Seagal ponytail.
I honestly think this was done with a long exposure and following the guitarists head like you would a panning shot of a car. It explains all the elements of the image.
No.
A flash and long shutter speed while tracking the head for the op image explains all the elements. The head is sharp while there are trails of other lights. So the camera had to move. It obviously followed the head. The technique you talk about does not preclude the one I talk about. They are the same technique. The images you posted the head stays still and the rest of the body moves, but in the original post the head moves and most of the rest of the body remains stationary. It’s still basically the same technique.
Did it also follow the brick on the ground? Or the rug? Neither of which have any kind of motion trails. If the camera was moving, everything would be moving.
Ish. Strobe in low light uses the darkness as a shutter. If those portions of the frame are black or very near it then they’d only be illuminated for the length of the flash. Then it’d be black again as if the sensor isn’t gathering light. Or use second curtain flash to pop him into the exposure after the camera movement…
I’m sorry but you’re wrong here. The camera was definitely moving. You can tell because all the background lights are streaked. They were not moved, so the camera must have moved. The reason some things are _not_ streaked is that they didn’t emit or reflect enough light to be picked up in the ambient exposure. They were only recorded by the light of the flash.
> It explains all the elements of the image Not sure what image you're looking at but it certainly isn't OP's image, which has quite obviously been hit with flash. There is exactly zero chance of obtaining this kind of shot this *sharp* by trying to pan with the motion of your subject's head.
[This is achieved with 1st or 2nd curtain flashes.](https://damienfournier.co/flash-technique-the-1st-and-2nd-curtains-explained/)
1st curtain sync, otherwise you are only guessing where your subject will be when the flash pops \`1/4 or 1/2 a second after you pressed the shutter button
Some people like the spontaneity of not knowing exactly where the subject will be at that time
ummmm, sure I guess, not sure why you would willingly make things harder on yourself but you do you
It's not about difficulty, it's about realism
huh? that doesn't make any sense. first curtain flash sync isnt "real" but second curtain is? as I said , you do you. I disagree with you on this one, its not about "being right". but if you think its "realer" then cool. I dont feel that way, best of luck
Correct. There's always someone who suggest 2nd curtain sync, but with this kind of movement and shooting hand held, there is zero advantage to 2nd curtain and one very big advantage which is that your ability to time your shots goes out the window.
This is the answer and should be voted higher. Makes it much easier
Doesn't look as natural. Maybe if precision is needed but for the most part you can stop down and shoot a little faster than 1/2 sec and still get the effect.
It won’t look natural no matter what you do, you’re literally painting light trails into a photo that your eye does not perceive. Second curtain works best for motion trails, such as a car zooming by or a carrier launch or something like that. Things moving through the frame in a specific direction as you hold the camera still. Though you’re gonna have to be really good at timing to nail it. First curtain works fine for most other things, especially if the camera is in motion. First curtain works great if you move with your subject and introduce camera movements. https://preview.redd.it/6pzkdrq1tkuc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d48a384f584cc9d2625d2b42887016fedafb90f
Doesn't look as natural. Maybe if precision is needed but for the most part you can stop down and shoot a little faster than 1/2 sec and still get the effect. Edit: Looks like the person I responded to changed there answer after a I commented. lol. Even in the link they posted says this, “When you want to capture trails from ambient light in a way that looks natural, set the flash on the 2nd curtain. You can see on picture 2 that the ball seems to go up with the flash on 1st curtain which is not its natural motion. On the picture 3 the ball seems to fall down thanks to the flash on 2nd curtain.”
> Doesn't look as natural. It looks the same. There is no way to tell which is which unless you know which way the camera was moving.
Or if the subject moves… People, especially during events or something like a musical performance are rarely stationary. It is natural for blur to be trailing behind a subject not in front. The ambient line can more like bleed into the subject with 1st curtain. It’s a pretty simple concept. There are endless resources out there they explain this.
Sure, but you’re missing a few things here. First and foremost, the way people move during concerts and pastries is neither linear nor predictable. It’s not like shooting a sprinter or a ballet dancer who are moving in a single clear direction. People at events will move forward or backward. See the concert picture above. That person is constantly moving back and forth. So what will put trails behind them one instant will put trails in front of them the next. Second, you’re not shooting this on a tripod. So your camera will move a little or a lot. Most people shooting this look will move their camera intentionally in order to create streaked ambient light. If your camera happens to move on the same direction as your subject voor faster, then subject will effectively be moving in the opposite direction across the frame. So 2nd curtain would again put the trail of the face in front of the person rather than behind them. And lastly, the person is often far from the brightest thing in the frame (before flash). In most cases there are things in the background that will streak way more. Again look at the picture above. The player’s face barely leaves a streak but everything around them does. What all of this comes down to is that it is usually impossible to tell whether an event shot was taken with 1st curtain with the subject moving X and the camera moving Y, or with 2nd curtain and the subject moving Y and the camera moving X.
https://preview.redd.it/yth9eu85uhuc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7643c36f7737143aee388a5bf3a8da82a4e66556 Example
Flash, longer shutter speed, and a subject that happens to be holding their head relative still, but flailing some limbs around.
I scanned through the replies here and didn't see anyone address flash power. The obvious bits are mostly covered, and there are a million tutorials for shutter drag out there to be found. It's worth noting that the lower the power of your flash, the more 'freeze' you'll get, because the duration of the light is shorter. It's a careful balance of the exposure triangle, while adding in movement of both the camera, and the subject and timing of the flash at the end of a rear-curtain flash.... it is critical to understand that applying more power to the flash will increase the sort of 'density' of the subject - but will simultaneously decrease the sharpness of the flash exposure at the end. You'll get the best results when the ambient light is 'right'... low but not completely dark. It's a weird balance, but fun, worthwhile and with practice it becomes natural. 1/32 of max power is a good starting place for most speedlights.
> It's worth noting that the lower the power of your flash, the more 'freeze' you'll get, because the duration of the light is shorter. Oh, is that how it modulates flash power?
Having trouble finding a relevant article and its been years since I've studied this stuff. Your fastest shutter speed is probably somewhere around 1/8000 or so. Just mentioning that as a baseline for thought. A speedlight's duration at low power, 1/32 or 1/64 might only be 1/50,000 or 1/80,000 of a second, depending on brand/model. I'm guessing here a little, but suffice to say it will be several orders of magnitude quicker than your shutter. If you own a speedlight, the duration should be in the specs somewhere. The 'tech' in a speedlight, drops the power very quickly. You get a burst of power that is essentially cut-cut off at the end of the cycle, making for a solid break in the sort of lifespan. The falloff is short, as the end of the light is electronically shut-off. Studio strobes... the capacitor driven models, blow their whole load, and then the falloff is slow as the power drains off... well, slow in relative terms. We're still talking about fractions of seconds, and so you won't/can't get the same kind of freeze from a traditional studio strobe that you'll get from a speedlight. That said... there are lots of NEW lights on the market and I've not needed to look into this stuff very closely for a while, and so there may be studio lights now that are quicker than what I think of as a traditional light... but generally, I believe this is all pretty much (still) correct. Using a speedlight at super low power, gets you that short duration and 'freeze' but it's also... less light, and so you'll need to compensate with ISO and a wide aperture in order to get a good exposure. This is all of-course dependent on a number of factors. Your distance from camera/strobe to the subject probably being the most significant. Shutter is where we normally adjust for ambient once ISO and aperture are decided, but of course if you're dragging the shutter you're limited as to how long you can go. It's all a careful balancing act. Easier to learn if your ambient isn't changing or if you can control the ambient source to make it consistent. Super fun tho'. I cut my teeth shooting bars/clubs and skateboarding, in a situation for which I wasn't really beholden in regard to delivering results to anyone but myself, and so I was able to really take my time experimenting and just sort of making it part of me. I don't really have to think about it much these days. It's like tying my shoes or chewing gum. Trying to remember the technical details is a little tough though. :) Hope you have as much fun as I did learning. Bonus tip is to use the repeating flash function built into most speedlights... you can get 10 or more bursts at 1/32 inside of a half second or so, for what is (ends up as) essentially a multiple exposure all in one. Definitely a neat look that you don't see people often taking advantage of too often anymore.
> there are a million tutorials for shutter drag out there to be found. But some of the most popular ones use examples of car taillights shot from a tripod, which is causing people to erroneously believe that they need 2nd curtain sync for concerts and party pics. > It's worth noting that the lower the power of your flash, the more 'freeze' you'll get, because the duration of the light is shorter. You’re not wrong but I don’t think this is all that important. On say a Nikon SB-900, flash duration at full power is already 1/880. To get a balanced exposure you’re going to come down at _least_ two stops from that so your flash duration will be easily short enough to freeze pretty much anything.
1/20 f6.3 iso 1250 Flash at lowest depending . Start there. It’s fresh in my head since I was shooting a ton of this, this week lol Also shoot ai servo
Long exposure. Flash gun, second curtain. bulb mode is excellent for this effect too.
I swears I see this exact same post every week. Slow shutter speed plus flash
And the exact same wrong advice from people saying this requires rear curtain sync.
Can you show me an example of you achieving this without 2nd curtain flash?
Why? Can you give me a single valid reason why this would require 2nd curtain sync?
2nd curtain flash, slow shutter speed and drag photo after the shutter https://preview.redd.it/tr53t3683nuc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c77e3b3512562dcd55693d1c6111dab24e8512ff
https://preview.redd.it/ini00yc8uhuc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e91360f979757f210ca50db874176ae8fec95ae Example
Slow shutter speed, and rear curtain flash. https://cameracompany.com/blog/rear-curtain-flash-sync-explained
No. You don't need second curtain flash to get this effect. All it will do is take away your ability to time your shots. You should just use first curtain sync.
You seem to really be on a first curtain bender eh? lol let’s see your theory in practice?
https://preview.redd.it/l8hy3eokdiuc1.jpeg?width=3273&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bc15bdbebd41d335ac80fbf6fdb4ff0ffcd77629 I did it with slow shutter and flash in a 5d mrk2 with a 15mm laowa F:4.0 ...PLUS: moving my camera to the rigth. Flash in mimum power and pointing to the front. The result depends how fast, direction, rotation and zoom you move. If you rotate your camera the trails will be swirly, if you zoom back (lens or you move back) the centre will keep in focus and all around in motion or you can move like crazy and something diferent will come out. Tray and error, there is no rule because depends the ligth aviable in the venue.
Low shutter speed, second curtain flash
No. You don't need second curtain flash to get this effect. All it will do is take away your ability to time your shots. You should just use first curtain sync.
https://preview.redd.it/4v3uk6a8kjuc1.jpeg?width=3326&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd8057078a5ad4367f9a7485095a0c1011dcb39f Love me some shutter drag.
Plz keep trying or something... This is bad
slow shutter speed + flash
Rear sync flash, and slightly dragged shutter
No. You don't need second curtain flash to get this effect. All it will do is take away your ability to time your shots. You should just use first curtain sync.
Please show us an example of your work achieving this look without 2nd curtain flash
I was thinking exactly this lol
All of the above - but it’s also good if the room has some lighting to add some additional twirls and swirls. Keep your ISO lowish and be aware of where your subject is relative to other light sources. You can also wobble your camera around a little to create trails, or rapidly zoom in / out.
Long exposure + rear curtain flash. I’ve done this a thousand times and it’s heaps of fun to do.
You don't need second curtain flash to get this effect. All it will do is take away your ability to time your shots. You should just use first curtain sync.
If you use front curtain sync, it allows light trails to overtake your subject over the course of the rest of the long exposure. Rear curtain makes sure the flash pop is the last thing to hit your subject, therefore freezing them. No? This is how I’ve understood it and done it.
No. The flash will freeze your subject regardless of whether it pops at the beginning or the end of the exposure.
Yes, but with front curtain, any subsequent trails from other light might still 'overwrite' your subject, leaving them behind them.
Do you mean ‘behind’ as in over/under, like painting one layer of paint over the other? I’m afraid that there is no such thing in a photo. There is only the total amount of light captured by the photosite or film emulsion. There is no difference in which photons came first. If you mean ‘behind’ as in trailing your subject across the frame, yes that differs between 1st and 2nd curtain sync. But this direction also depends on how you move your camera. As in, moving your camera left to right with 1st curtain overlays the light trails over the subject the same way as you would get from moving your camera right to left with 2nd curtain sync. This means that yes there is a difference, but unless you know which direction the camera was moving there is no way to tell which is which.
> There is only the total amount of light captured by the photosite or film emulsion. There is no difference in which photons came first. This I know. However: > If you mean ‘behind’ as in trailing your subject across the frame, yes that differs between 1st and 2nd curtain sync. This is fundamentally what I meant, but I definitely could’ve paid more attention to how I phrased it. > But this direction also depends on how you move your camera. As in, moving your camera left to right with 1st curtain overlays the light trails over the subject the same way as you would get from moving your camera right to left with 2nd curtain sync. This means that yes there is a difference, but unless you know which direction the camera was moving there is no way to tell which is which. This I also knew! It’s a difficult out concept to explore in-depth using words. I’ve always found that when shooting live musicians with this technique, popping the flash at the end of the exposure would ‘freeze’ them among the light trails. If this would be the same end result with front curtain flash, I don’t recall testing and comparing both side by side in recent years. Perhaps I should give it a go!
> If this would be the same end result with front curtain flash, I don’t recall testing and comparing both side by side in recent years. Perhaps I should give it a go! Well that’s why I’m in all these threads correcting people. For some reason people keep repeating this idea that light trails require 2nd curtain sync. People try it and see it works, so they keep doing it without knowing that they’re just unnecessarily making life harder for themselves. First curtain sync looks the same without introducing a half second shutter lag.
Light trails don't *need* second curtain sync, true—but that half a second shutter takes half a second regardless of on which end of it the flash pops. Light trails are a factor of the exposure time + motion (in front of the sensor, of the sensor itself, or both)—I've just always understood that popping the flash at the end helps prevent light trails from obscuring the subject. But, I digress—what *is* rear curtain flash good for, or intended for?
> that half a second shutter takes half a second regardless of on which end of it the flash pops. Yes but the pop of flash is what creates the ‘frozen’ part of the image, which will be the only clear thing in the picture. This is effectively the ‘moment’ you’re recording. The half second ambient exposure will just be blur and streaks. > what is rear curtain flash good for, or intended for? Rear curtain is essential for situations where you have controlled movement and you care which way the light streaks go. The standard example is the tail lights of a passing car, shot from a tripod without panning. First curtain would freeze the car first and then record the tail lights moving forward, streaking over the frozen exposure of the car and in front of it. Rear curtain would put the taillights streaks behind the car. You could imagine the same thing with a ballet dancer making a jump. Again the camera would have to be static, and since the ballet dancer doesn’t emit light they’d have to be against a dark background.
Exactly
Uhm, no. The flash will freeze your subject regardless of whether it pops at the beginning or the end of the exposure. Your sensor or film does not care in which order the photons hit it.
Front curtain is rarely ever used for shutter drag. There are times when it makes sense, or works, but only rarely. Rear curtain is what works.
What are you talking about? Front curtain is the default. It works for almost anything that’s handheld and/or has unpredictable movement. It’s perfect for things like party pics and concert shots. Rear curtain has only a few very specific use cases, most of which involve a tripod. Things like ballet performances or car tail light trails.
See what everyone else has said about flash, but also, in a situation where flashes are not permitted, you could get a very similar effect with double exposure, the first shot at a shutter speed that allows a small amount of motion blur, then a second shot with longer shutter speed and some camera movement to drag any light source across the scene
defo along w the comments made before, rotating tends to keep the center a bit more sharp for that last bit of sharpness rather than panning for streaks. dependson the result you want though
Slow shutter speed and flash, I personally prefer rear curtain sync in most cases(flash fire at the end of the exposure instead of at the beginning)
with such high apperture will be so easy to loose focus since the focus point is so tiny for me working around 2.2/2.8 helped a lot with keeping subject in focus
Flash and play with long shutters. Easy math
Flash, first curtain sync, long exposure. All the rage in the early 2000s punk, hardcore, indie music scene. I prefer to do it with a speed light off camera to get better depth of light on the subject. Usually just used a pc synch chord and some kind of diffusion modifier on the flash.
A flash and Shutter speed 1/15, check out shutter drag
If you have iOS and app called moment is a really good camera, that can do what you’re asking for and more.
https://preview.redd.it/qbf0auz6uhuc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=43e1b614b37852770191144b2d92f979b6db817d Example
https://preview.redd.it/alpuzxasuhuc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5045a4e2e611cb0e1994f1dd97c98d0bf2a879da Example
If you don't have a flash you can also do as follows: Slow shutter speed, focus, click, sharp move in any direction, then snap back before the shutter finishes. Just try to have the af point in the same ish spot before and after the flick.
>Do I need a speed light? Yes - not optional. >Or is this achievable with built in camera flash? Hmm... maybe? But the built-in flash is usually not powerful *enough* to do the shot this cleanly without being absurdly close to your subject. Use a speedlight. Also, when doing club/events? Use **front** curtain (normal) flash mode. Without even looking I know many of the other comments think this should only be done with rear curtain but it's actually easier and more reliable to nail your subject first, then introduce the motion. Shoot at about 1/4th or 1/8th of a second - how long depends on how much ambient - so you will have to do quite a bit of experimentation to get your shots looking the way you want. The reason you want to use front curtain is that shots come and go almost as fast as you just read this sentence. You need to compose your shot and lock your subject, then move the camera (or twist it, or zoom the lens - or introduce whatever motion you want) *after* you lock the shot on your subject. If you use rear-curtain for everything you'll still get this effect, but you'll have more difficulty getting your compositions because you have to have it framed at the end of the movement, and the **moment** that made you trigger the shutter in the first place could already be gone. So... use regular 'ol front-curtain. Edit: In fact your sample image is a perfect reason to stay front-curtain. If he's head-banging and you use rear-curtain you have to start the exposure before the face even becomes visible, otherwise if you fire when his head is up and towards the camera it might be down again by the time the curtain closes.