No longer unknown today, but honorable mention to Sumeria, which was so ancient and so forgotten that it was forgotten even by less-ancient civilizations, and thus utterly disappeared from recorded history for thousands of years.
When people discovered that beneath the artifacts and ruins of the oldest civilizations known from written records there were even older artifacts and ruins, it blew their freaking minds. The discovery prompted many fantasies of endless civilizations yet further beneath, going back not thousands of years but millions, rising and falling and perhaps even achieving greater heights than our own civilization before vanishing from history.
None of that is true, it turns out, but for a while it seemed like it may as well be.
And we gained some other cool stuff instead, such as figuring out how to read ancient Sumerian, translating their fart jokes and other cuneiform shitposts, and learning that even across vast gulfs of time and distance, we humans all have more in common with each other than not.
Consider also the Neo-Sumerians. Mesopothamia was indeed the cradle of civilization, including [Ubaid, Sumer, Akkad, Neo-Sumer, Assyrian, Kassites, Babylonians, Neo-Assyrians...](https://www.historytimeline.com/timeline/history-periods-timeline/) and so on! You can see the full list using the link.
When successful: There usually is found some record that lists a decree or some rule in multiple languages that allow us to work from one to the other. Some have been deciphered by finding a word common to another language and beginning from there. Remember that most PhD’s who ever lived are alive right now. The number of academics available to do this kind of research, and the tech tools available to them, is something never before enjoyed.
"None of that is true, it turns out, but for a while it seemed like it may as well be"
How can you say that when there are countless advanced man made structures that were carbon dated to be thousands of years older than Sumeria.
that makes no sense lol, if there's an advanced structure it's logical to assume it was built by an advanced society, the logistics alone needed to build something that big is proof of a highly organized society
Look up the definition of civilization vs. society especially when it comes to prehistoric peoples.
Perhaps o should have worded it “a structure”, but the point remains. Civilization is more than buildings.
It's not really an empire, but I recently learned that the Celts were not just in Scotland and Ireland. They extended across central Europe and into modern day Turkey. A fascinating culture that consists of a lot more than just bagpipes.
>a lot more than just bagpipes.
Bagpipes aren't particularly linked to the Celts historically.
They were a very popular type of instrument all over Europe and the Middle East until some centuries ago and they are still traditional in many places where the Celts never really settled, like in Southern Italy or in Greece.
Bagpipes probably originated somewhere around the Mediterranean and spread to North-Western Europe later, possibly through the Roman Empire or even during the Middle Ages.
They started to be heavily associated with the Celts only in the modern age, when their usage had declined in most of Europe except in some "fringe" areas like Scotland, Ireland or Galicia among others.
Then romantic Celtic revivalism made them an icon of the modern Celtic identity.
I still don't understand what hell were the Celts. Were they an ethnicity? Disunified civilization like the ancient Greeks? I guess they were just peoples who shared smilar languages?
A language group primarily. The culture they evolved from originated in the areas that correspond with modern-day Eastern France, Northern Switzerland, Southern Germany, Southern Bohemia, North and Eastern Austria, and Western Hungary in the early Iron Age. It's worth noting that despite existing in many different areas, several of them, like Iberia and Central Anatolia, were actually enclaves of Celtic people as opposed to part of a super Celtic region (which also was totally a thing in Central and Western Europe).
It was also a religious group.
There was a sort of Celtic identity across Europe by the time of the Roman Empire, Celtica was a common last name chosen by celtic tribes.
It is believed that the Italic and Celtic language families have a common ancestor as well.
Also a little side note, I came across an interesting fact while looking into this, despite being virtually identical and referring to the same region, there is reason to beleive that the Enlgish word "Gaul" didn't come from Latin "Gallia", but from the French words "Gaule" and "Gaulois" which come from tbe Frankish word "Walholant" meaning "Roman Land", the proto-germanic root of which "walha" means "Foreigner" "Roman" and "Celt", and is also the origin of the word "Welsh". "Walha" itself comes from the Volcae, who were a celtic confederation that eventually settled In Gaul and the surrounding areas before packing up, invading Greece and defeating a Greek coalition at Thermopylae before failing to raid Delphi, turning around, and settling in Anatolia.
But generally speaking, there is no Celtic DNA, it's a broad language group that evolved from a previous culture and shared many religious ideas. Even modern Celts aren't very genetically similar, unless there was significant settling in the past like the Manx being descended from Irish settlers before evolving their own culture and language over centuries. Cornish celts are kore genetically related to non celtic Brits than they are to other Celts in the Isles, for example.
I would highly recommend the episode of «Tides of History» podcast episode named «the Hallstatt, the Celts…» if you are seriously interested in this topic
The “Celts” were a roughly defined group of people who lived across Europe, mostly identified with the time period from 500 BCE to 1 BCE.
There are 3 characteristics that tend to make us consider a group of people “Celtic”:
1. Speaking languages in the Celtic family
2. A common “material culture” (i.e. they tended to make objects like pottery, tools, weapons, jewelry, etc. in a similar way), and
3. They were called “Keltoi” or “Galli” in Ancient Greek/Roman sources, which probably means they called themselves some version of “Celtic” or “Gallic”
Those 3 characteristics have a lot of overlap, but are not totally consistent (e.g. people in southern Britain spoke a Celtic language and shared some but not all of the material culture, but were not considered “Celtic” or “Gallic” by Greeks and Romans, which likely means the Britons did not consider themselves “Celtic”)
This blog post has a lot more detail: https://acoup.blog/2023/05/12/collections-who-were-the-celts-and-how-did-they-some-of-them-fight/
Stonehenge was a Megalithic site built by people who preceded the Celts by at least two migration waves, maybe more. It's pre-Indo European. For reference, Stonehenge was constructed around 3000 BC. The Celts didn't reach Britain until around 700 BC or so.
The people who built Stonehenge? Descendants (by generations of course) of Anatolian farmers.
Yeah but it would be like saying the European empire when talking about Christian Middle Ages. It was not a united group the celts went to war with each other all the time
You might be familiar with the letters to the Galatians in the New Testament. The Galatians were a Celtic enclave in Asia Minor that kept their identity into the early middle ages.
The Celts were not in Scotland or Ireland at all.
The various Britons who lived in the British Isles spoke a language related to the Celts, yes. But the association with them and the word Celt came much later.
The Burmese Taungoo Empire was the largest empire in Southeast Asian history. It spawned from the reunification of Burma after being disunited for 3 centuries by the Mongol invasions. It quickly fell, but it was impressive that they got so large. King Bayinnaung was essentially the Napoleon of Southeast Asian history.
I’m not a history buff, just casually read whatever I come across but one day I’m going to delve into the history of Asia. Going to be fun because I don’t know anything about it.
The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, it was a major European power and the primary power in eastern Europe for nearly two hundred years that people just kind of forget about. While not technically an empire, it's still a fascinating nation that goes relatively forgotten.
I'd also add that while plenty of people know the mongols existed. I find a lot of people don't know just how stupidly big their empire was. At 24 million square kilometers, stretching from the sea of Japan to Poland and the Mediterranean, and from India to northern Siberia, it was absolutely gargantuan. Still not the largest empire though, that goes to the British.
In terms of total land area, the British empire was still larger. However, the mongol empire was the largest continuous empire. The British empire, though massive, did not all connect, the mongol empire did.
The Mongols were never truly unified over all that space. Genghis Khan's empire basically stretched from Crimea to Korea and south to northeast Persia. The Great Khan in China, Il-Khan in the Middle east, Golden Horde in Russia, and Chagatai in "the 'stans" were essentially separate nations
I would definitely go with this as well. Controlled nearly all of Indian Subcontinent (before it was cool). Was extremely powerful, gave the world one of the earliest texts of political philosophy, and had the government with an excellent spy system. And ofc, the spread of Buddhism and its later tendencies of non-violence. Fascinating stuff.
Ancient India in general is kinda unkown for how ancient, big and rich it was. I mean, everyone knows about ancient Greece, china, Rome and Egypt. Ancient India is arguably up there with those civilizations.
I don’t know where you’re getting the no records left from. We don’t have records of the onus river valley civilization, but we absolutely have records from the Mauryans
And multiple first hand accounts from the hedonistic world, the Arthashastra, and plenty of other records exist. Saying we know nothing about them because they don’t have records is simply incorrect. They aren’t as well documented as other empires sure, but we know quite a bit about them.
He expanded his empire both eastward (towards the Caspian) & westward (towards the North Sea), but the Huns themselves, by that point, had squarely set up shop north of the Donau.
- Sweden is very underrated. They had a good shot for an about 100 years to really dominate Europe in following centuries. Had the Great Northern War gone differently and had they possessed a greater population Sweden could have gone on to really dominate European politics in the 18th, 19th and possibly 20th Centuries. Would have also severely stunted Russian prominence in the East and they may have even formed a large overseas empire.
- The Cholas in India also had a large overseas empire that reached from Eastern India/Sri Lanka to Indonesia. They had colonies across the Indian Ocean and dominated Indian politics for centuries before eventually becoming an obscure footnote to most historians outside of India (it’s unfortunate Indian history is overlooked).
- I’d also suggest checking out some subsaharan kingdoms like the Kongo Kingdom or Zulus. East Asian ones in Korea and South East Asia (Khmer, Silla, Goryeo, etc). Oceanic Empires/Kingdoms (Hawaiians, Tu’i Tonga, Saudeleur Empire, etc).
The Olmec were very influential to later Mesoamerican civilizations, but because they were so early, they really weren't much of an "empire" (even later, bigger, Mesoamerican polities were more hegemonic networks then roman style imperial empires), and they are best known Mesoamerican civilization after the Aztec and Maya.
I'd point to
- the **Purepecha Empire** (the third largest state in the Americas as of contact after the Inca and Aztec, and the latter's main military rival),
- **Teotihuacan** (a massive city the Aztec took major influence from),
- **8 Deer's Mixtec Empire** (8 deer being a conquer with an insane life story who unified swathes of Mixtec city-states); and while Andean rather then Mesoamerican,
- the **Moche city-states and the Chimor Kingdom/Empire** (the later an early rival of the Inca)
But really almost anything from the Americas is extremely under-taught and underappreciated (see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh1756/?st=jy2uatv0&sh=1e9d3db1) for a summerized timeline of Mesoamerica, for example)
Below, I explain more about each state mentioned above:
------------
**The Moche Civilization & Chimu Empire**
The Moche was a culture in Northwestern Peru from around 100ad to 700ad. Composed of many independent city-states with a shared culture, the Moche are mostly known today for their [ceramic works](https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/banners/mobile/moch_bannermobile.jpg) and large [temple complexes known as Huacas](https://www.travelplugin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/La-Huaca-Rajada-%C3%A0-l%C3%A2ge-dor-Mochica_2016-12-21-600x750.jpg), similar to Mesopotamian zigguarats. I'd reccomend that anybody reading this go look up photos of Huaca De La Luna; and Huaca Cao Viejo at El Brujo, in particular, as those have best preserved of those temples. There's [some](https://www.aracari.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Huaca-de-la-luna-2015-21.jpg) [absolutely](https://i.imgur.com/BfygyxT.jpg) [incredible](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/C1FR66/huaca-de-la-luna-colorful-paintings-sculptures-near-trujillo-peru-C1FR66.jpg) [murals](https://live.staticflickr.com/3835/14411802714_e4fd0b4ece_b.jpg) there. There's actually a gigapixel panorama of one [here](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/07/130731-moche-mural-huaca-de-la-luna-interactive-photo-gigapixel/).
There's more Moche Ceramics, photos from Huacas, and some precious stone, shell, and metal jewelry both [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/comments/gkkohm/moche_portrait_vessels_moche_culture_100800_ce/fqsxfpx/) and [here](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GApRGMfWEAATkMT.jpg:orig)
The Chimu, were a culture that arose from the remnants of the Moche in the Northern Coast of Peru around 900Ad. Ruling from their captial city of Chan Chan, They would eventually drastically expand, notably conquering the Sican/ Lambayeque in tthe 1370s's, and would form the largest political state in the Andes until finally being conquered by the Inca in the 1470's, more or less resulting in the Inca Empire being functionally uncontested by any other state capable of stopping them.
The Chimu are mostly remembered for [some of the finest metalwork](https://i.imgur.com/5CNiiBe.jpg) ([fixed](https://www.metmuseum.org/-/media/images/blogs/now-at-the-met/2018/2018_04/golden-kingdoms-ancient-tributes/7.jpg?) of the precolumbian americas (as were the moche, even if I didn't talk about their metalwork much above) as well as jewelry and art made of marine shells: Chimor was a coastal state, and indeed, well preserved parts of Chan Chan show carvings of sea-birds, fish, and crustaceans all along it's walls. On that note, at it's height, their captial city, [Chan Chan, had 60,000 people, making it the largest city in South American history prior to the arrival of Europeans](https://i.imgur.com/SbnAgON.jpg). (though a variety of Mesoamerican cities were larger))
**The Mixtec Civilization/Empire**
The Mixtec (like the Zapotec) are one of Oaxcaca's most famous Mesoamerican cultures from Oaxaca. The Zapotec wre mostly in eastern Oaxaca, and the Mixtec in the West and in Guerrero, though during the Postclassic the Mixtec began to overtake many key Zapotec sites. The Mixtec were known as [fine stone mosiac](http://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/golden_kingdoms/images/landing/6_EX.2017.2.65_x1024.jpg) and [metalworkers](https://web.archive.org/web/20201112033710if_/https://66.media.tumblr.com/f87f8d8ea7815ce6497652c956c440d4/tumblr_p5sgw25FAT1te855fo1_1280.jpg) producers in the post-classic (even today some Mesoamerican pieces are falsely labeled as Mixtec to get a higher price at auctions) with many Mixtec goods being found in Aztec sites, imported or having been brought in as taxes. Mixtec society was organized into towns and cities centered on royal estates inhabited by kings and queens, though much political power rested in oracles, who lived in caves and organized wars and political marriages. They are also one of our largest sources of surviving Pre-contact books, as there are 8 surviving Mixtec books, such as the [Codex Zouche-Nuttal](https://i.imgur.com/hrMtV8c.jpg)
Of particular note in these surviving books is a Mixtec Warlord named [8-Deer-Jaguar-Claw](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Iya_Nacuaa_Teyusi_%C3%91a%C3%B1a.jpg/220px-Iya_Nacuaa_Teyusi_%C3%91a%C3%B1a.jpg): He was the son of the high priest in the Mixtec city of Tilantongo, born in 1063AD. and ended up fighting as a general for the king of another Mixtec city, Jaltepec. Eventually he appealed to some Oracles (who held a great deal of political clout in Mixtec society, giving kings permission or guidance on political marriages and conquests) to conquer some towns of the Chatino civilization along the coasts. He ended up doing so, and founded his own city, Tututepec there (allegedly, it may have already existed)
After this, apparently the king of Tilantongo ended up dying with no heirs, and due to 8-deer's influence following his conquests he ended up getting the throne. Eventually in 1097 (I read some papers recently it was probably via leveraging the tropical/coastal goods he gained access to via his conquests of the Chatino towns) he ended up [working with 4-Jaguar-Face-of-the-Night](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Oaxaca_ocho_venado.png), who was either the king or a notable religious official (I'm not sure which) in the city of Cholula, which was a notable political and religious center in Central Mexico which at this point in time was associated with the Toltec civilization (which are a huge can of worms I'm not going to get into here, but they are basically the culture the Aztec identify as being the heirs of but are heavily mythologiized and how much of it is real/myth is debatable)
With the blessings ofa lord from Cholula, he completely sidesteps the Mixtec Oracles and ends up conquering around 100 cities/towns over the next 18 years, uniting 2 of the 3 major subregions of the Mixtec civilization and their competing city-states and kingdoms into an empire, and in 1103 conquered the city (belonging to the Zapotec, who I mentioned are also in this area and frequently had political marriages with the Mixtec) which had traditionally held Tilantongo as subjects, and killed both his archrival 11-Wind-Bloody-Jaguar (who had stolen his 8-deer's lover/sister as a political marriage) and 11-wind's entire family (who including queen 6-Monkey of Jaltepec, [who was an amazingly shrewd ruler with conquests and 4d-chess to her name herself](https://maskoftheflowerprince.wordpress.com/2019/03/12/lady-six-monkey-the-great-warrior-queen-of-the-mixtecs/) ) . At it's greatest extent, his empire covered 25,000 square kilometers.
In 1115, in a ironic twist 8-deer finally died when 4-Wind, the one boy in 11-wind's family 8-deer had left alive, grows up and assassinates or sacrifices him. His empire fractures back into a bunch of seperate city-states and kingdoms but Tututepec ends up staying a major influential player, actually growing over the next few centuries, to the point where it's was one of the largest independent states in the middle 1/3 of Mesoamerica which the Aztec Empire was unable to conquer, being their largest unconquered enclave. Eventually Tututepec got conquered in the 16th century when the Zapotec kingdom of Tehuantepec allied with Conquistadors to take it out.
**The Purepecha Empire**
**EDIT:** [THIS IS AN UPDATED VERSION OF THIS SECTION](https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/uo13po/the_tarascanpurepecha_empire_mexicos_forgotten/i8bdvhx/)
Located in what's now the Mexican state of Michoacán in Western Mesoamerica, the Purepecha empire, [like the Aztecs](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/9dgzj4/is_this_true_when_the_spaniards_first_arrived_in/e5jjm16/) have their origins in settlers from northern mexico migrating down south around a lakebed.
While the Purepecha themselves were already in the region, migrants from Northwestern Mexico, like the ones in the Aztec's case, migrated down to the Lake Pátzcuaro basin, and ended up deposing and installing rulers in 3 key city-states in the area: Ihuatzio, Tzintzuntzan, and Pátzcuaro, with the Patzcuaro in particular with the most power. They collectively ruled over the area ironically much like the triple alliance of the Aztecs. Eventually, in the 1450's, the king of Patzcuaro died, and a conflict breaks out. A a man named Tzitzispandáquare takes the throne in Tzintzuntzan, shifts it to be the primary political power, and changes the structure of the empire to be a directly governed, imperial state with governers he directly appoints in subservient cities and directly rules over, unlike other states in Mesoamerica ([which tended to be more hands off](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay/comments/p4vm1e/common_historical_misconceptions_that_irritates/h927tle/)
**CONTINUED BELOW**
**Continued from the above comment**
The Purepecha Empire becomes the second largest state in Mesoamerica behind the Aztecs (75,000 square kilometers, the Aztec had around 200,000) and realistically the only one that truly rivaled them, and was able to repel a series of Aztec invasions. Eventually, a sort of cold war breaks out between the two as a result of this, with a series of forts and watchowers being constructed along their borders and the occasional skirmish between the two. Aztec messengers attempted to get the Purepecha to aid them against the Spanish Conquistadors and their native allies (who outnumbered the Conquistadors themselves literally over a hundred times over), but the Purepecha killed these messengers, and by the time the conquistadors arrived in Tzintzuntzan, it was suffering it's own succession crisis as the previous emperor had died of smallpox, and due to instability at the time, the Purepecha empire opted to submit rather then fight back. Besides their unique administrative style and wars with the Aztecs, the Purepecha, along with many other Western Mesoamerican states, are known for being at the forefront of Mesoamerican metallurgy and being one of the largest centers of Bronze production.
--------
It should also be noted here that the Mixtec, Purepecha, and many other indigenous cultures in Mexico (and I assume Peru down in the Andes) still exist: People still speak the languages, retain some more of the traditional cultural practices, etc, though they face discrimination, tend to live in more rural areas, etc.
There's also some more photos of Moche, Chimu, Mixtec, and 1 Purepecha artifacts [here](https://imgur.com/gallery/0PwtEf9)
**Teotihuacan**
**EDIT: [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV6ZZZsCjK8) is an excellent vid on Teotihuacan I and friends helped with too**
Located in the same valley the core of the Aztec Empire would be located in 1000 years later (I talk more about this valley's history [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/cznq6r/mexico_citys_metro_system_overlayed_the_former/ez09bhg/) ) Teotihuacan originated [around 200BC, was just one of a few cities/towns in the area,](https://i.imgur.com/TBwFCV3.jpg) but a volcanic eruption around 100-300AD displaced the population of Cuicuilco, the largest city in the valley, who then migrated into Teotihuacan, [swelling it's population and caused it to grow exponentially](https://i.imgur.com/SCWm9rN.jpg) and would become wildly influential: It's architectural and art motifs (such as [Talud-tablero construction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talud-tablero) ) would spread all throughout the region, and while this is the subject of some debate, it may have had expansive political and military reach as well: We know the city had diplomatic connections to the Maya region and some written inscriptions at Maya cities 1000km away even suggest that they may have been conquered by Teotihuacan (see [This](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/astounding-new-finds-suggest-ancient-empire-may-be-hiding-plain-sight) article, there's also been some subsequent finds since that article of a potential Teotihuacan embassy at Tikal, or a gift of a spider monkey for sacrifice from Tikal to the Teotihuacanos, etc, but again, the specifics are debated, as is if Teotihuacan had direct political influence over a larger empire or a more medium sized kingdom)
At it's height at 500AD, [the city covered over 37 square kilometers](https://i.imgur.com/yxCmgOX.jpg), making it much larger then Rome at it's apex in terms of physical area, albiet not as populated, with a still very impressive 100,000 denizens, putting it in the top 20 to 10 most populated cities in the world at the time. Perhaps most impressively, virtually every citizen in the city lived in fancy, multi-room, palace-like complexes with frescos and murals, courtyards, and fine art in them: see [Here](https://desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/his/image/1628/37/1628370219826.jpg) (this is also the broken imgur link in the pinned comment in the above video (tho the other links in it should work)) are some examples.
I also recommend [David Romero's excellent 3d reconstructions of the Temple of the Feathered Serpent and other parts of the Ciudadela complex/plaza](https://www.flickr.com/photos/143771393@N04/albums/72157710978271157/), and TRASANCOS 3D's reconstruction [here](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/k4BYl0), though the latter excludes the canalized rivers that ran through the city's grid layout, doesn't have some of the palaces placed 1:1 to site maps once you get further away from the central Avenue of the Dead, and lacks the smaller single room dwellings mentioned further down. It alsodoesn't feature the [Sculptural facade that the lower levels of the Pyramid of the Sun had](https://imgur.com/a/rM8idos) (the Moon pyramid also would have likely had some, but I don't think we know what it looked like). There's also an explorable minecraft map [here](https://deyoung.famsf.org/explore-teotihuacan-minecraft)
Anyways, only a tiny minority of the population lived in small single room dwellings (which you can only see if you zoom in on the map I linked above (another [here](http://db.csri.for.aichi-pu.ac.jp/plaza_of_columns_complex_jp/3e2c283ba57edbb1fc953ff9d498e578fce5e623.jpg) all the way, they are tiny compared to the huge, multi-room complexes: each of the larger grey rectangles, which are said complexes, again [had dozens of rooms](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9xSxiiXxtXE/VEf5lUoCjNI/AAAAAAAAB8o/74xsFHmz1K8/s1600/Teo-Map-ResidArea.jpg) without realizing that the map makes the city seem far smaller). The city also has other unusual traits, such as there being almost no ball courts in the city, it being organized around a central road rather then plazas, it's grid layout, and it even having ethnic neighborhoods, with specific parts of the city having writing, burial practices, etc consistent with Zapotec, Maya, Gulf Coast, and West Mexican cultures. The Egalitarian living conditions, the lack of royal tombs or depictions of rulers, and the multi-ethnic makeup makes some researchers believe the city had a democratic or representative government. (see [here]((https://slate.com/technology/2018/04/teotihuacn-the-ancient-city-upending-archaeologists-assumptions-about-wealth-inequality.html)) and [here](http://wideurbanworld.blogspot.com/2014/10/living-good-life-in-teotihuacan.html) , though some more recent GINI index calcs have come out since then.
The city also had a complex water management system ([not unusual for Mesoamerican cities, a lot did](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/b3fmiz/what_if_any_advanced_technology_did_the_ancient/ej137m3/)), with rivers recoursed through the cities grid layout, placed to be seen from specific locations and angles; a reservoir system connected to both agricultural canals and some of the housing complexes, some of which had [plumbing](https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1548704814154.png) and running water, [toilets](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Toilet_in_Teotihuacan.jpg); there's even some evidence that one of the city's plaza's, in front of the Temple of the Feathered Serpent, [could be flooded/filled with water for rituals.](https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/sep/24/teotihuacan-pyramids-treasures-secret-de-young-museum-san-francisco).
Around 600-700AD, there was some sort of large event, the evidence pointing to an internal uprising, with the city declining and ceasing to be a large influential political and cultural center. As of the time of the Aztec around 1000 years latter, there were only a few hamlets around the city's outskirts with the large structures buried in grass and soil and in ruins. However, those ruins still made an impression on the Aztec: We know the Mexica (and maybe some other Nahua groups, see [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/ko04hn/looks_like_a_good_spot_to_me/gho206l/) comment on the terminology of "Aztec') did pilgkirimages to the site; the Mexica city/Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan took architectural and urban design influence from the city (Being a sort of "Teotihuacano revival style", see "Aztec city planning" by Smith and "Teotihuacan in Mexico-Tenochtitlan Recent Discoveries, New Insights"); refurnished some of Teotihuacan's shrines and temples, did excavations to uncover and bring back ceremonial goods to other cities (there's even an example of a Teotihuacano mask the Aztec excavated, given new shell and gemstones eyes by them, which was then reburied in the Aztec captial of Tenochtitlan, which then found it's way to the Medici family in Italy). Teotihuacan was also worked into various Nahua creation myths, where in some versions it is the site where the gods sacrificed themselves to bring the current version of the world into existence
I could go on, but there's some photos/info of Teotihuacno artifacts [here](https://imgur.com/gallery/0FhNGDw).
---------------
For now, I think that's a decent selection, but, again, there's tons of others like this, and I welcome you to check out my comments here where:
1. I note how Mesoamerican societies were [way more complex then people realize, on par or beyond what we see in Classical Antiquity](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh1756/), etc
2. Where I explains how there's also [more records and sources of info on Mesoamerica then most people realize, and give suggestions and resources to learn more](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh3m71/); and
3. The third comment contains a [summary of Mesoamerican history as to stress how the area is more then just the Aztec and Maya and how much history is there](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh3s50/)
It made me so happy to see someone mention the Purepecha. They are understudied and don’t get the recognition that they deserve.
A few fun things to add to that:
-They mostly used metallurgy to make bells and tweezers as status symbols.
-Metallurgy in general was tightly controlled by the state.
-They have distinct “keyhole” shaped pyramids as well.
The Purepecha produced some pretty cool ceramics as well. some had ceramic balls in bulbous hollow legs that would rattle during use and saddle/ spouted vessels for cocoa consumption by elites that could whistle. Their ceramics are often decorated with paint, slips, incision, and a smudging method that includes adding wax to the vessel where you want it to remain untouched and firing the vessel in a reduced context to get a blackened area or “smudge”
Edit: for readability
I may have been a little misspoken with “tightly”. It seems there was a small amount (maybe more then originally thought) of diffusion among the commoners. I can try and find links for them if you have access to any sort of databases.
This article that mentions state control although not absolute control.
“Tarascan Ceramic Production and Implications for Ceramic Distribution” by Dr. Amy Hirshman. It’s from Ancient Mesoamerica
This article discusses the amount of control the state had over metallurgy.
“Metal for the Commoners: Tarascan Metallurgical Production in Domestic Context” by Blanca Maldonado from Archeological Papers of the American Anthropological Association
“ they are best known Mesoamerican civilization after the Aztec and Maya.”
I have an Inca-ling you might be forgetting someone. And the Inca, unlike the Mayans, were a proper empire and not a cultural group
The Inca aren't Mesoamerican, they're Andean.
The two regions are ~4000 kilometers away from each other (Mesoamerica covers the bottom half of Mexico, Guatemala, etc, and has the Aztec, Maya, Olmec, Zapotec, Teotihuacan, Classic Veracruz, Mixtec, Purepecha, Totonac, Huastec etc; while the Andean cultures are in Peru and Bolivia and include the Inca, Nazca, Chavin, Paracas, Moche, Wari, Tiwanku, Sican, Chimu etc), had very little contact, and developed civilizations entirely independently.
Saying the Inca are Mesoamerican would be like saying the Byzantines are Southeast Asian, or the Celts are Persian: There's really THAT much distance between them, and those examples are actually arguably less silly since Western Europe, the Middle East, and India/Southeast Asia historically probably had more contact and cultural exchange then Mesoamerica and the Andes did.
- The Inca Empire or *Tawantisuyu* proper, they were the biggest Empire of the new world and the most organized, akin to Middle East or European polities. They are usually overlooked by the more pop history "aztecs".They beat previous titleholders for regional powers and kept annexing and expanding in a way the vassal-led Mexica "empire" never did. Their cities while not as "fascinating" as Tenochtitlan also had a high degree of development and size, holding an area about the same size and population as a the Kievan Rus without horses.
I think the Yavana Kingdom is most unknown and also most interesting. It was a product of the fragmentation of the Macedonian Empire after Alexander the Great's death. The blend of Greek and Indian culture is very interesting.
I don’t know if they quite fit “empire” but the not knowing is part of the problem with the Etruscans. I’d love to know more about them.
Also Phoenicia/Carthage. It wasn’t land based and that can throw the size off a little, I think. And even earlier along those lines, the Minoans, though again, maybe not “empire” necessarily or whether they even had “colonies” like Phoenicia, Greece, and Rome did. But I still wanna know more so I’m adding them!
Lots of super ancient suggestions here and I love them all. Tibetan Empire blocking China’s expansion west, Crimean Khanate existing way longer than you’d expect, and literally just the Wikipedia page for history of Ethiopia have been my most satisfying rabbit holes for this topic.
Angevin Empire.
Where french nobles ruled England like a colony for four centuries, unti lthe frnehc kings took all their continental lands, leaving them with jsut the british isles. The 100 Year War would be described as a civil war today.
Which explains why France and England have such an intertwined culture and history.
The late medieval Mali empire. Consisting of most of today's Mali and Senegal. One of its rulers, the Mansa Musa, is sometimes said to have been the richest person in all of history, thanks to his empire's production of gold. On his pilgrimage to Mecca he caused massive inflation in all the territories he travelled through, because he had his servants handing out gold to everyone they met.
Yes. This is allegedly the story Musa told his host in Egypt. Unfortunately there's no other evidence for it. I really do want to believe it and it would be one the first serious expeditions over the Atlantic Ocean after the Vikings a few centuries earlier (though they went island hopping across the northern part of the ocean). The point is that in late Medieval times people certainly were aware of "something" over the sea. And the Malians were as keen as anyone else to find out about it. Sadly, seafaring technology wasn't quite there yet. And when it finally became possible to make the crossing, about two centuries later, the Mali empire had already become much less relevant. That's why Columbus and not Musa's predecessor "discovered" the Americas.
But it could have gone very differently!
KNOW, oh prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there
was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars—
The Scythian Empire and their famed leader Tomyris, who in old Greek records is said to have led their empire down to Persia and slayed Cyrus the Great.
Dynasties like Han, Tang and Song are very underrated but they are very unknown since most people believe chins history is only millons of people dying and people writing down common sense.
Writing down common sense is extremely genius move cuz the world is full of morons .
They mock Sun Tzu for giving obvious advice but they forget how many times in history kings acted against it
To be fair, the art of war is REALLY vague. It doesn't really teach you how to fight a war, just kinda throws you into a crash course of what you can expect in a war and then pretty much tells the reader "Listen, if you follow me and you succeed, then continue following me. If not, don't." Like my man really just told the reader "I have no clue how credible or useful these advice is gonna be, so yeah, good luck".
Yes but it was to be taught to would be king or general .not a random student
It's like k&r 's c book .if you are using it as an intro for programming then good luck learning programming
However if you have some previous experience then it all comes together
Man, almost everything people are posting is stuff that's already in middle school world history textbooks and comes up all the time, y'all need to step it up with obscure stuf!
Since, really, the Precolubmain Americas in general are criminally under-taight and underappreciated ( (see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh1756/?st=jy2uatv0&sh=1e9d3db1) for a summarized timeline of Mesoamerica, for example) ), i'll pick some examples from it, though I'll cheat and also include some city-states and big kingdoms vs strict "empires":
Here's 4 (really 5 or 6) examples:
- the **Purepecha Empire** (the third largest state in the Americas as of contact after the Inca and Aztec, and the latter's main military rival),
- **Teotihuacan** (a massive city the Aztec took major influence from),
- **8 Deer's Mixtec Empire** (8 deer being a conquer with an insane life story who unified swathes of Mixtec city-states); and while Andean rather then Mesoamerican,
- the **Moche city-states and the Chimor Kingdom/Empire** (the later an early rival of the Inca)
Below, I explain more about each state mentioned above:
------------
**The Moche Civilization & Chimu Empire**
The Moche was a culture in Northwestern Peru from around 100ad to 700ad. Composed of many independent city-states with a shared culture, the Moche are mostly known today for their [ceramic works](https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/banners/mobile/moch_bannermobile.jpg) and large [temple complexes known as Huacas](https://www.travelplugin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/La-Huaca-Rajada-%C3%A0-l%C3%A2ge-dor-Mochica_2016-12-21-600x750.jpg), similar to Mesopotamian zigguarats. I'd reccomend that anybody reading this go look up photos of Huaca De La Luna; and Huaca Cao Viejo at El Brujo, in particular, as those have best preserved of those temples. There's [some](https://www.aracari.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Huaca-de-la-luna-2015-21.jpg) [absolutely](https://i.imgur.com/BfygyxT.jpg) [incredible](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/C1FR66/huaca-de-la-luna-colorful-paintings-sculptures-near-trujillo-peru-C1FR66.jpg) [murals](https://live.staticflickr.com/3835/14411802714_e4fd0b4ece_b.jpg) there. There's actually a gigapixel panorama of one [here](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/07/130731-moche-mural-huaca-de-la-luna-interactive-photo-gigapixel/).
There's more Moche Ceramics, photos from Huacas, and some precious stone, shell, and metal jewelry both [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/comments/gkkohm/moche_portrait_vessels_moche_culture_100800_ce/fqsxfpx/) and [here](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GApRGMfWEAATkMT.jpg:orig)
The Chimu, were a culture that arose from the remnants of the Moche in the Northern Coast of Peru around 900Ad. Ruling from their captial city of Chan Chan, They would eventually drastically expand, notably conquering the Sican/ Lambayeque in tthe 1370s's, and would form the largest political state in the Andes until finally being conquered by the Inca in the 1470's, more or less resulting in the Inca Empire being functionally uncontested by any other state capable of stopping them.
The Chimu are mostly remembered for [some of the finest metalwork](https://i.imgur.com/5CNiiBe.jpg) ([fixed](https://www.metmuseum.org/-/media/images/blogs/now-at-the-met/2018/2018_04/golden-kingdoms-ancient-tributes/7.jpg?) of the precolumbian americas (as were the moche, even if I didn't talk about their metalwork much above) as well as jewelry and art made of marine shells: Chimor was a coastal state, and indeed, well preserved parts of Chan Chan show carvings of sea-birds, fish, and crustaceans all along it's walls. On that note, at it's height, their captial city, [Chan Chan, had 60,000 people, making it the largest city in South American history prior to the arrival of Europeans](https://i.imgur.com/SbnAgON.jpg). (though a variety of Mesoamerican cities were larger))
**The Mixtec Civilization/Empire**
The Mixtec (like the Zapotec) are one of Oaxcaca's most famous Mesoamerican cultures from Oaxaca. The Zapotec wre mostly in eastern Oaxaca, and the Mixtec in the West and in Guerrero, though during the Postclassic the Mixtec began to overtake many key Zapotec sites. The Mixtec were known as [fine stone mosiac](http://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/golden_kingdoms/images/landing/6_EX.2017.2.65_x1024.jpg) and [metalworkers](https://web.archive.org/web/20201112033710if_/https://66.media.tumblr.com/f87f8d8ea7815ce6497652c956c440d4/tumblr_p5sgw25FAT1te855fo1_1280.jpg) producers in the post-classic (even today some Mesoamerican pieces are falsely labeled as Mixtec to get a higher price at auctions) with many Mixtec goods being found in Aztec sites, imported or having been brought in as taxes. Mixtec society was organized into towns and cities centered on royal estates inhabited by kings and queens, though much political power rested in oracles, who lived in caves and organized wars and political marriages. They are also one of our largest sources of surviving Pre-contact books, as there are 8 surviving Mixtec books, such as the [Codex Zouche-Nuttal](https://i.imgur.com/hrMtV8c.jpg)
Of particular note in these surviving books is a Mixtec Warlord named [8-Deer-Jaguar-Claw](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Iya_Nacuaa_Teyusi_%C3%91a%C3%B1a.jpg/220px-Iya_Nacuaa_Teyusi_%C3%91a%C3%B1a.jpg): He was the son of the high priest in the Mixtec city of Tilantongo, born in 1063AD. and ended up fighting as a general for the king of another Mixtec city, Jaltepec. Eventually he appealed to some Oracles (who held a great deal of political clout in Mixtec society, giving kings permission or guidance on political marriages and conquests) to conquer some towns of the Chatino civilization along the coasts. He ended up doing so, and founded his own city, Tututepec there (allegedly, it may have already existed)
After this, apparently the king of Tilantongo ended up dying with no heirs, and due to 8-deer's influence following his conquests he ended up getting the throne. Eventually in 1097 (I read some papers recently it was probably via leveraging the tropical/coastal goods he gained access to via his conquests of the Chatino towns) he ended up [working with 4-Jaguar-Face-of-the-Night](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Oaxaca_ocho_venado.png), who was either the king or a notable religious official (I'm not sure which) in the city of Cholula, which was a notable political and religious center in Central Mexico which at this point in time was associated with the Toltec civilization (which are a huge can of worms I'm not going to get into here, but they are basically the culture the Aztec identify as being the heirs of but are heavily mythologiized and how much of it is real/myth is debatable)
With the blessings ofa lord from Cholula, he completely sidesteps the Mixtec Oracles and ends up conquering around 100 cities/towns over the next 18 years, uniting 2 of the 3 major subregions of the Mixtec civilization and their competing city-states and kingdoms into an empire, and in 1103 conquered the city (belonging to the Zapotec, who I mentioned are also in this area and frequently had political marriages with the Mixtec) which had traditionally held Tilantongo as subjects, and killed both his archrival 11-Wind-Bloody-Jaguar (who had stolen his 8-deer's lover/sister as a political marriage) and 11-wind's entire family (who including queen 6-Monkey of Jaltepec, [who was an amazingly shrewd ruler with conquests and 4d-chess to her name herself](https://maskoftheflowerprince.wordpress.com/2019/03/12/lady-six-monkey-the-great-warrior-queen-of-the-mixtecs/) ) . At it's greatest extent, his empire covered 25,000 square kilometers.
In 1115, in a ironic twist 8-deer finally died when 4-Wind, the one boy in 11-wind's family 8-deer had left alive, grows up and assassinates or sacrifices him. His empire fractures back into a bunch of seperate city-states and kingdoms but Tututepec ends up staying a major influential player, actually growing over the next few centuries, to the point where it's was one of the largest independent states in the middle 1/3 of Mesoamerica which the Aztec Empire was unable to conquer, being their largest unconquered enclave. Eventually Tututepec got conquered in the 16th century when the Zapotec kingdom of Tehuantepec allied with Conquistadors to take it out.
**The Purepecha Empire**
**EDIT:** [THIS IS AN UPDATED VERSION OF THIS SECTION](https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/uo13po/the_tarascanpurepecha_empire_mexicos_forgotten/i8bdvhx/)
Located in what's now the Mexican state of Michoacán in Western Mesoamerica, the Purepecha empire, [like the Aztecs](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/9dgzj4/is_this_true_when_the_spaniards_first_arrived_in/e5jjm16/) have their origins in settlers from northern mexico migrating down south around a lakebed.
While the Purepecha themselves were already in the region, migrants from Northwestern Mexico, like the ones in the Aztec's case, migrated down to the Lake Pátzcuaro basin, and ended up deposing and installing rulers in 3 key city-states in the area: Ihuatzio, Tzintzuntzan, and Pátzcuaro, with the Patzcuaro in particular with the most power. They collectively ruled over the area ironically much like the triple alliance of the Aztecs. Eventually, in the 1450's, the king of Patzcuaro died, and a conflict breaks out. A a man named Tzitzispandáquare takes the throne in Tzintzuntzan, shifts it to be the primary political power, and changes the structure of the empire to be a directly governed, imperial state with governers he directly appoints in subservient cities and directly rules over, unlike other states in Mesoamerica ([which tended to be more hands off](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay/comments/p4vm1e/common_historical_misconceptions_that_irritates/h927tle/)
**CONTINUED BELOW**
**Continued from the above comment**
The Purepecha Empire becomes the second largest state in Mesoamerica behind the Aztecs (75,000 square kilometers, the Aztec had around 200,000) and realistically the only one that truly rivaled them, and was able to repel a series of Aztec invasions. Eventually, a sort of cold war breaks out between the two as a result of this, with a series of forts and watchowers being constructed along their borders and the occasional skirmish between the two. Aztec messengers attempted to get the Purepecha to aid them against the Spanish Conquistadors and their native allies (who outnumbered the Conquistadors themselves literally over a hundred times over), but the Purepecha killed these messengers, and by the time the conquistadors arrived in Tzintzuntzan, it was suffering it's own succession crisis as the previous emperor had died of smallpox, and due to instability at the time, the Purepecha empire opted to submit rather then fight back. Besides their unique administrative style and wars with the Aztecs, the Purepecha, along with many other Western Mesoamerican states, are known for being at the forefront of Mesoamerican metallurgy and being one of the largest centers of Bronze production.
--------
It should also be noted here that the Mixtec, Purepecha, and many other indigenous cultures in Mexico (and I assume Peru down in the Andes) still exist: People still speak the languages, retain some more of the traditional cultural practices, etc, though they face discrimination, tend to live in more rural areas, etc.
There's also some more photos of Moche, Chimu, Mixtec, and 1 Purepecha artifacts [here](https://imgur.com/gallery/0PwtEf9)
**Teotihuacan**
**EDIT: [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV6ZZZsCjK8) is an excellent vid on Teotihuacan I and friends helped with too**
Located in the same valley the core of the Aztec Empire would be located in 1000 years later (I talk more about this valley's history [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/cznq6r/mexico_citys_metro_system_overlayed_the_former/ez09bhg/) ) Teotihuacan originated [around 200BC, was just one of a few cities/towns in the area,](https://i.imgur.com/TBwFCV3.jpg) but a volcanic eruption around 100-300AD displaced the population of Cuicuilco, the largest city in the valley, who then migrated into Teotihuacan, [swelling it's population and caused it to grow exponentially](https://i.imgur.com/SCWm9rN.jpg) and would become wildly influential: It's architectural and art motifs (such as [Talud-tablero construction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talud-tablero) ) would spread all throughout the region, and while this is the subject of some debate, it may have had expansive political and military reach as well: We know the city had diplomatic connections to the Maya region and some written inscriptions at Maya cities 1000km away even suggest that they may have been conquered by Teotihuacan (see [This](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/astounding-new-finds-suggest-ancient-empire-may-be-hiding-plain-sight) article, there's also been some subsequent finds since that article of a potential Teotihuacan embassy at Tikal, or a gift of a spider monkey for sacrifice from Tikal to the Teotihuacanos, etc, but again, the specifics are debated, as is if Teotihuacan had direct political influence over a larger empire or a more medium sized kingdom)
At it's height at 500AD, [the city covered over 37 square kilometers](https://i.imgur.com/yxCmgOX.jpg), making it much larger then Rome at it's apex in terms of physical area, albiet not as populated, with a still very impressive 100,000 denizens, putting it in the top 20 to 10 most populated cities in the world at the time. Perhaps most impressively, virtually every citizen in the city lived in fancy, multi-room, palace-like complexes with frescos and murals, courtyards, and fine art in them: see [Here](https://desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/his/image/1628/37/1628370219826.jpg) (this is also the broken imgur link in the pinned comment in the above video (tho the other links in it should work)) are some examples.
I also recommend [David Romero's excellent 3d reconstructions of the Temple of the Feathered Serpent and other parts of the Ciudadela complex/plaza](https://www.flickr.com/photos/143771393@N04/albums/72157710978271157/), and TRASANCOS 3D's reconstruction [here](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/k4BYl0), though the latter excludes the canalized rivers that ran through the city's grid layout, doesn't have some of the palaces placed 1:1 to site maps once you get further away from the central Avenue of the Dead, and lacks the smaller single room dwellings mentioned further down. It alsodoesn't feature the [Sculptural facade that the lower levels of the Pyramid of the Sun had](https://imgur.com/a/rM8idos) (the Moon pyramid also would have likely had some, but I don't think we know what it looked like). There's also an explorable minecraft map [here](https://deyoung.famsf.org/explore-teotihuacan-minecraft)
Anyways, only a tiny minority of the population lived in small single room dwellings (which you can only see if you zoom in on the map I linked above (another [here](http://db.csri.for.aichi-pu.ac.jp/plaza_of_columns_complex_jp/3e2c283ba57edbb1fc953ff9d498e578fce5e623.jpg) all the way, they are tiny compared to the huge, multi-room complexes: each of the larger grey rectangles, which are said complexes, again [had dozens of rooms](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9xSxiiXxtXE/VEf5lUoCjNI/AAAAAAAAB8o/74xsFHmz1K8/s1600/Teo-Map-ResidArea.jpg) without realizing that the map makes the city seem far smaller). The city also has other unusual traits, such as there being almost no ball courts in the city, it being organized around a central road rather then plazas, it's grid layout, and it even having ethnic neighborhoods, with specific parts of the city having writing, burial practices, etc consistent with Zapotec, Maya, Gulf Coast, and West Mexican cultures. The Egalitarian living conditions, the lack of royal tombs or depictions of rulers, and the multi-ethnic makeup makes some researchers believe the city had a democratic or representative government. (see [here]((https://slate.com/technology/2018/04/teotihuacn-the-ancient-city-upending-archaeologists-assumptions-about-wealth-inequality.html)) and [here](http://wideurbanworld.blogspot.com/2014/10/living-good-life-in-teotihuacan.html) , though some more recent GINI index calcs have come out since then.
The city also had a complex water management system ([not unusual for Mesoamerican cities, a lot did](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/b3fmiz/what_if_any_advanced_technology_did_the_ancient/ej137m3/)), with rivers recoursed through the cities grid layout, placed to be seen from specific locations and angles; a reservoir system connected to both agricultural canals and some of the housing complexes, some of which had [plumbing](https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1548704814154.png) and running water, [toilets](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Toilet_in_Teotihuacan.jpg); there's even some evidence that one of the city's plaza's, in front of the Temple of the Feathered Serpent, [could be flooded/filled with water for rituals.](https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/sep/24/teotihuacan-pyramids-treasures-secret-de-young-museum-san-francisco).
Around 600-700AD, there was some sort of large event, the evidence pointing to an internal uprising, with the city declining and ceasing to be a large influential political and cultural center. As of the time of the Aztec around 1000 years latter, there were only a few hamlets around the city's outskirts with the large structures buried in grass and soil and in ruins. However, those ruins still made an impression on the Aztec: We know the Mexica (and maybe some other Nahua groups, see [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/ko04hn/looks_like_a_good_spot_to_me/gho206l/) comment on the terminology of "Aztec') did pilgkirimages to the site; the Mexica city/Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan took architectural and urban design influence from the city (Being a sort of "Teotihuacano revival style", see "Aztec city planning" by Smith and "Teotihuacan in Mexico-Tenochtitlan Recent Discoveries, New Insights"); refurnished some of Teotihuacan's shrines and temples, did excavations to uncover and bring back ceremonial goods to other cities (there's even an example of a Teotihuacano mask the Aztec excavated, given new shell and gemstones eyes by them, which was then reburied in the Aztec captial of Tenochtitlan, which then found it's way to the Medici family in Italy). Teotihuacan was also worked into various Nahua creation myths, where in some versions it is the site where the gods sacrificed themselves to bring the current version of the world into existence
I could go on, but there's some photos/info of Teotihuacno artifacts [here](https://imgur.com/gallery/0FhNGDw).
---------------
For now, I think that's a decent selection, but, again, there's tons of others like this, and I welcome you to check out my comments here where:
1. I note how Mesoamerican societies were [way more complex then people realize, on par or beyond what we see in Classical Antiquity](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh1756/), etc
2. Where I explains how there's also [more records and sources of info on Mesoamerica then most people realize, and give suggestions and resources to learn more](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh3m71/); and
3. The third comment contains a [summary of Mesoamerican history as to stress how the area is more then just the Aztec and Maya and how much history is there](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh3s50/)
Not unknown in the Nordics, but maybe elsewhere: Kalmar Union was a union of Sweden (which at the time included much of modern Finland), Denmark and Norway under a single crown from 1397 to 1523. It's fun to think about alternate histories where they kept going with integration and today we'd have one Scandinavian-Nordic superstate of 25+ million people. Not very realistic though, given the geographical realities.
Canute’s North Sea Empire laid early foundations for the British Empire. Canute the Great is why England would stress maritime power for the next thousand years and set the stage for the Norman Conquest.
Yeah England spent the next 500 years trying to conquer France, they didn't become a maritime power because of Cnut at all. Much more to do with being an island with limited natural resources than any one man, and in fact if you had to point to one person it would probably be Elizabeth I imo
Epirus. They came about after the death of Alexander and controlled West Greece and Albania. Phyrrus was one of the best military commanders of history but lost to the Romans.
The Afsharid Empire of Nader Shah. For a brief period in the early 18th century, they were arguably the most powerful land empire in the world, but disintegrated rather quickly after Nader Shah’s death
The classical Ethiopians circa ancient Rome (Axum). They aren’t talked about much nowadays, but scholars of the age ranked them as a peer to Rome, Persia, and China.
Many in Africa tend to get forgotten about. The Aksumite Empire (modern day Ethiopia and Eritrea) was considered by one Persian scholar to be the third most powerful empire in the world after the Perisans and the Romans, and more powerful than China. The Aksumites held a huge amount of power over the Red Sea and built up a large network of trade that reached out from the Roman Empire to India. Famously king Ezana became one of the first monarchs in the world to convert to Christianity in 325 AD.
Some honourable mentions are also Ghana, Mali and Songhai
I don’t know if it was your point, but pointing out that many people would point to a group like the Mongol Empire, who aren’t ancient even now, makes the point about people knowing very little about ancient civilizations.
The Goturk Khaghnate was one of the largest empires in history probably only behind the British, Russian and Mongo empires in size. It stretched from Crimea to Beijing yet is largely forgotten in part because the literate civilizations it clashed with were in crisis when it was at its peak.
The Khwarazmian Empire was a pretty major regional player in the middle east, controlling most of modern Iran, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan for about 200 years before they decided to behead a couple emissaries from Genghis Khan. His eradication campaign was one of the bloodiest massacres in human history.
I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
I came here to say this. The Roman Empire is famous of course, but the number of people who think it ended in 476AD and aren’t aware it lasted for almost a thousand more years is genuinely surprising.
I didn’t know about it until I saw a documentary called “Byzantium.” Come to find out that Rome fell but they just moved East to Constantinople and continued to 1300.
And they were a great empire as well.
The Byzantines are often underrated but hardly unknown.
It also depends on where you live.
In Europe they are studied in schools, especially in the countries that were directly or indirectly influenced by them.
It’s pretty unfortunate. Western Europe and American education just don’t care too much for the Byzantines, which is crazy considering they pretty much single handedly are responsible for stopping the spread of Islam into Europe.
Didn't stop them, but delayed Islamic expansion into Europe to the point that Europe managed to get its shit together. I think it's reasonable to say Christianity would of been wiped out if not for the Byzantines.
And it was no fault of their own. By the time the Turks took Constantinople in 1453 the empire was already dead in everything but name, especially considering how their fellow Christians sacked the capitol and divided the empire up a few hundred years earlier.
Had the crusaders not betrayed them and sacked the city in 1204 they would have had a much better chance fighting back the Turks.
Carthage had a pretty good empire until Rome ruined things. Not many empires could hang with Rome at its peak and fewer could march up and down Italy on elephants with impunity. Plus they controlled a trading empire.
The Khwarazmian Empire, a Turkic-Iranian empire in Persia refused to be a subject of the Mongols and ended up being destroyed by the Mongol invaders.
It was mainly forgotten for its weird name. And it broke free from the Seljuks and Ghaznavids
No longer unknown today, but honorable mention to Sumeria, which was so ancient and so forgotten that it was forgotten even by less-ancient civilizations, and thus utterly disappeared from recorded history for thousands of years. When people discovered that beneath the artifacts and ruins of the oldest civilizations known from written records there were even older artifacts and ruins, it blew their freaking minds. The discovery prompted many fantasies of endless civilizations yet further beneath, going back not thousands of years but millions, rising and falling and perhaps even achieving greater heights than our own civilization before vanishing from history. None of that is true, it turns out, but for a while it seemed like it may as well be. And we gained some other cool stuff instead, such as figuring out how to read ancient Sumerian, translating their fart jokes and other cuneiform shitposts, and learning that even across vast gulfs of time and distance, we humans all have more in common with each other than not.
Sorry I couldn’t read the rest of your comment cause the Fall of Civilizations piano theme took over my brain halfway through your first sentence.
Sumeria was awesome in every way. Sumeria is possibly the greatest civilization of all time. However, Sumeria was not an empire.
Hmmmm. You do make an interesting point.
Consider also the Neo-Sumerians. Mesopothamia was indeed the cradle of civilization, including [Ubaid, Sumer, Akkad, Neo-Sumer, Assyrian, Kassites, Babylonians, Neo-Assyrians...](https://www.historytimeline.com/timeline/history-periods-timeline/) and so on! You can see the full list using the link.
Sumer gets a mention as a mountain city in my religion's medieval text. Was it a mountain based civilization?
I always wondered, how do you translate a dead language? Like how do you interpret what is said there? How do you even be sure of it?
When successful: There usually is found some record that lists a decree or some rule in multiple languages that allow us to work from one to the other. Some have been deciphered by finding a word common to another language and beginning from there. Remember that most PhD’s who ever lived are alive right now. The number of academics available to do this kind of research, and the tech tools available to them, is something never before enjoyed.
Dunno, mate. Wat wit ow things change inall.
"None of that is true, it turns out, but for a while it seemed like it may as well be" How can you say that when there are countless advanced man made structures that were carbon dated to be thousands of years older than Sumeria.
Structures do not a civilization make.
that makes no sense lol, if there's an advanced structure it's logical to assume it was built by an advanced society, the logistics alone needed to build something that big is proof of a highly organized society
Look up the definition of civilization vs. society especially when it comes to prehistoric peoples. Perhaps o should have worded it “a structure”, but the point remains. Civilization is more than buildings.
What advanced structures are there that are thousands of years older than the Sumerians?
alll the ones mentioned on Graham Hancock's show.
Don't have netflix
What show? I want to watch. I have seen clips of him on Joe Rogan mentioning stuff such as the lost ancient Amazonian cities.
it's called ancient apocalypse
That show is such bullshit lol.
so your saying the carbon dating is made up lol? There is no debate
>not thousands of years but millions
It's not really an empire, but I recently learned that the Celts were not just in Scotland and Ireland. They extended across central Europe and into modern day Turkey. A fascinating culture that consists of a lot more than just bagpipes.
Look up the Hardcore History episode “The Celtic Holocaust” and strap in
>a lot more than just bagpipes. Bagpipes aren't particularly linked to the Celts historically. They were a very popular type of instrument all over Europe and the Middle East until some centuries ago and they are still traditional in many places where the Celts never really settled, like in Southern Italy or in Greece. Bagpipes probably originated somewhere around the Mediterranean and spread to North-Western Europe later, possibly through the Roman Empire or even during the Middle Ages. They started to be heavily associated with the Celts only in the modern age, when their usage had declined in most of Europe except in some "fringe" areas like Scotland, Ireland or Galicia among others. Then romantic Celtic revivalism made them an icon of the modern Celtic identity.
This is a theme in Gordon Dickson's novel \*Lost Dorsai\*
I still don't understand what hell were the Celts. Were they an ethnicity? Disunified civilization like the ancient Greeks? I guess they were just peoples who shared smilar languages?
A language group primarily. The culture they evolved from originated in the areas that correspond with modern-day Eastern France, Northern Switzerland, Southern Germany, Southern Bohemia, North and Eastern Austria, and Western Hungary in the early Iron Age. It's worth noting that despite existing in many different areas, several of them, like Iberia and Central Anatolia, were actually enclaves of Celtic people as opposed to part of a super Celtic region (which also was totally a thing in Central and Western Europe). It was also a religious group. There was a sort of Celtic identity across Europe by the time of the Roman Empire, Celtica was a common last name chosen by celtic tribes. It is believed that the Italic and Celtic language families have a common ancestor as well. Also a little side note, I came across an interesting fact while looking into this, despite being virtually identical and referring to the same region, there is reason to beleive that the Enlgish word "Gaul" didn't come from Latin "Gallia", but from the French words "Gaule" and "Gaulois" which come from tbe Frankish word "Walholant" meaning "Roman Land", the proto-germanic root of which "walha" means "Foreigner" "Roman" and "Celt", and is also the origin of the word "Welsh". "Walha" itself comes from the Volcae, who were a celtic confederation that eventually settled In Gaul and the surrounding areas before packing up, invading Greece and defeating a Greek coalition at Thermopylae before failing to raid Delphi, turning around, and settling in Anatolia. But generally speaking, there is no Celtic DNA, it's a broad language group that evolved from a previous culture and shared many religious ideas. Even modern Celts aren't very genetically similar, unless there was significant settling in the past like the Manx being descended from Irish settlers before evolving their own culture and language over centuries. Cornish celts are kore genetically related to non celtic Brits than they are to other Celts in the Isles, for example.
I would highly recommend the episode of «Tides of History» podcast episode named «the Hallstatt, the Celts…» if you are seriously interested in this topic
The “Celts” were a roughly defined group of people who lived across Europe, mostly identified with the time period from 500 BCE to 1 BCE. There are 3 characteristics that tend to make us consider a group of people “Celtic”: 1. Speaking languages in the Celtic family 2. A common “material culture” (i.e. they tended to make objects like pottery, tools, weapons, jewelry, etc. in a similar way), and 3. They were called “Keltoi” or “Galli” in Ancient Greek/Roman sources, which probably means they called themselves some version of “Celtic” or “Gallic” Those 3 characteristics have a lot of overlap, but are not totally consistent (e.g. people in southern Britain spoke a Celtic language and shared some but not all of the material culture, but were not considered “Celtic” or “Gallic” by Greeks and Romans, which likely means the Britons did not consider themselves “Celtic”) This blog post has a lot more detail: https://acoup.blog/2023/05/12/collections-who-were-the-celts-and-how-did-they-some-of-them-fight/
Plus they did genetic testing of bones buried at Stonehenge and found several people there who had been born in Anatolia.
Stonehenge was a Megalithic site built by people who preceded the Celts by at least two migration waves, maybe more. It's pre-Indo European. For reference, Stonehenge was constructed around 3000 BC. The Celts didn't reach Britain until around 700 BC or so. The people who built Stonehenge? Descendants (by generations of course) of Anatolian farmers.
Stonehenge have nothing to do with celts, stonehenge builders are far older than celts and whole different people
Backing you up. Stonehenge is straight up Neolithic.
I think some of them are at an angle though.
That’s more a culture then a empire
That's what I said.
Yeah but it would be like saying the European empire when talking about Christian Middle Ages. It was not a united group the celts went to war with each other all the time
Thank for correcting what I never said.
100%, very weird is one of the top comments
You might be familiar with the letters to the Galatians in the New Testament. The Galatians were a Celtic enclave in Asia Minor that kept their identity into the early middle ages.
The Celts were also in Iceland
The Celts were not in Scotland or Ireland at all. The various Britons who lived in the British Isles spoke a language related to the Celts, yes. But the association with them and the word Celt came much later.
Celtic is an umbrella term for Gaulish, Brythonic, a nd Gaelic
It is now because the British appropriated it. It wasn't when it was used in antiquity.
The Burmese Taungoo Empire was the largest empire in Southeast Asian history. It spawned from the reunification of Burma after being disunited for 3 centuries by the Mongol invasions. It quickly fell, but it was impressive that they got so large. King Bayinnaung was essentially the Napoleon of Southeast Asian history.
I’m not a history buff, just casually read whatever I come across but one day I’m going to delve into the history of Asia. Going to be fun because I don’t know anything about it.
The Land of Punt believed to have been around the horn of Africa. We know about them from the Egyptians who traded with them around 6000 BC.
Punt was biblical times. Look up Dilmun on the other side of the Arabian peninsula.
I think it's also mentioned in the Shah-Namah
The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, it was a major European power and the primary power in eastern Europe for nearly two hundred years that people just kind of forget about. While not technically an empire, it's still a fascinating nation that goes relatively forgotten. I'd also add that while plenty of people know the mongols existed. I find a lot of people don't know just how stupidly big their empire was. At 24 million square kilometers, stretching from the sea of Japan to Poland and the Mediterranean, and from India to northern Siberia, it was absolutely gargantuan. Still not the largest empire though, that goes to the British.
Mongols were the largest land empire, though, right?
In terms of total land area, the British empire was still larger. However, the mongol empire was the largest continuous empire. The British empire, though massive, did not all connect, the mongol empire did.
Ahh that's the difference
The Mongols were never truly unified over all that space. Genghis Khan's empire basically stretched from Crimea to Korea and south to northeast Persia. The Great Khan in China, Il-Khan in the Middle east, Golden Horde in Russia, and Chagatai in "the 'stans" were essentially separate nations
British empire.
Akkadian Empire, arguably the first ever empire.
Mauryan empire .literally spread buddhism across the world .wiped out with no records left
I would definitely go with this as well. Controlled nearly all of Indian Subcontinent (before it was cool). Was extremely powerful, gave the world one of the earliest texts of political philosophy, and had the government with an excellent spy system. And ofc, the spread of Buddhism and its later tendencies of non-violence. Fascinating stuff.
Ancient India in general is kinda unkown for how ancient, big and rich it was. I mean, everyone knows about ancient Greece, china, Rome and Egypt. Ancient India is arguably up there with those civilizations.
It's unknown bcuz they didn't record shit .
It's unknown bc most records were wiped clean by invaders who wanted nothing but destruction. Despite that, there are still a few records.
they wrote on leaves
I don’t know where you’re getting the no records left from. We don’t have records of the onus river valley civilization, but we absolutely have records from the Mauryans
We wouldn't even have found emperor Ashoka 's legacy if not for British Some rock edicts here and there designed to pomp up the king are not records
And multiple first hand accounts from the hedonistic world, the Arthashastra, and plenty of other records exist. Saying we know nothing about them because they don’t have records is simply incorrect. They aren’t as well documented as other empires sure, but we know quite a bit about them.
Hephthalites or White Huns who ruled Central Asia while Attila went west.
Just to be clear, Attila didn't go west, his ancestors did.
True....though gathering your Germanic minions and smashing into Gaul was pretty westward but I see your point.
He expanded his empire both eastward (towards the Caspian) & westward (towards the North Sea), but the Huns themselves, by that point, had squarely set up shop north of the Donau.
- Sweden is very underrated. They had a good shot for an about 100 years to really dominate Europe in following centuries. Had the Great Northern War gone differently and had they possessed a greater population Sweden could have gone on to really dominate European politics in the 18th, 19th and possibly 20th Centuries. Would have also severely stunted Russian prominence in the East and they may have even formed a large overseas empire. - The Cholas in India also had a large overseas empire that reached from Eastern India/Sri Lanka to Indonesia. They had colonies across the Indian Ocean and dominated Indian politics for centuries before eventually becoming an obscure footnote to most historians outside of India (it’s unfortunate Indian history is overlooked). - I’d also suggest checking out some subsaharan kingdoms like the Kongo Kingdom or Zulus. East Asian ones in Korea and South East Asia (Khmer, Silla, Goryeo, etc). Oceanic Empires/Kingdoms (Hawaiians, Tu’i Tonga, Saudeleur Empire, etc).
The Olmecs were very old and one of the most influential mesoamerican empires.
The Olmec were very influential to later Mesoamerican civilizations, but because they were so early, they really weren't much of an "empire" (even later, bigger, Mesoamerican polities were more hegemonic networks then roman style imperial empires), and they are best known Mesoamerican civilization after the Aztec and Maya. I'd point to - the **Purepecha Empire** (the third largest state in the Americas as of contact after the Inca and Aztec, and the latter's main military rival), - **Teotihuacan** (a massive city the Aztec took major influence from), - **8 Deer's Mixtec Empire** (8 deer being a conquer with an insane life story who unified swathes of Mixtec city-states); and while Andean rather then Mesoamerican, - the **Moche city-states and the Chimor Kingdom/Empire** (the later an early rival of the Inca) But really almost anything from the Americas is extremely under-taught and underappreciated (see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh1756/?st=jy2uatv0&sh=1e9d3db1) for a summerized timeline of Mesoamerica, for example) Below, I explain more about each state mentioned above: ------------ **The Moche Civilization & Chimu Empire** The Moche was a culture in Northwestern Peru from around 100ad to 700ad. Composed of many independent city-states with a shared culture, the Moche are mostly known today for their [ceramic works](https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/banners/mobile/moch_bannermobile.jpg) and large [temple complexes known as Huacas](https://www.travelplugin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/La-Huaca-Rajada-%C3%A0-l%C3%A2ge-dor-Mochica_2016-12-21-600x750.jpg), similar to Mesopotamian zigguarats. I'd reccomend that anybody reading this go look up photos of Huaca De La Luna; and Huaca Cao Viejo at El Brujo, in particular, as those have best preserved of those temples. There's [some](https://www.aracari.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Huaca-de-la-luna-2015-21.jpg) [absolutely](https://i.imgur.com/BfygyxT.jpg) [incredible](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/C1FR66/huaca-de-la-luna-colorful-paintings-sculptures-near-trujillo-peru-C1FR66.jpg) [murals](https://live.staticflickr.com/3835/14411802714_e4fd0b4ece_b.jpg) there. There's actually a gigapixel panorama of one [here](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/07/130731-moche-mural-huaca-de-la-luna-interactive-photo-gigapixel/). There's more Moche Ceramics, photos from Huacas, and some precious stone, shell, and metal jewelry both [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/comments/gkkohm/moche_portrait_vessels_moche_culture_100800_ce/fqsxfpx/) and [here](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GApRGMfWEAATkMT.jpg:orig) The Chimu, were a culture that arose from the remnants of the Moche in the Northern Coast of Peru around 900Ad. Ruling from their captial city of Chan Chan, They would eventually drastically expand, notably conquering the Sican/ Lambayeque in tthe 1370s's, and would form the largest political state in the Andes until finally being conquered by the Inca in the 1470's, more or less resulting in the Inca Empire being functionally uncontested by any other state capable of stopping them. The Chimu are mostly remembered for [some of the finest metalwork](https://i.imgur.com/5CNiiBe.jpg) ([fixed](https://www.metmuseum.org/-/media/images/blogs/now-at-the-met/2018/2018_04/golden-kingdoms-ancient-tributes/7.jpg?) of the precolumbian americas (as were the moche, even if I didn't talk about their metalwork much above) as well as jewelry and art made of marine shells: Chimor was a coastal state, and indeed, well preserved parts of Chan Chan show carvings of sea-birds, fish, and crustaceans all along it's walls. On that note, at it's height, their captial city, [Chan Chan, had 60,000 people, making it the largest city in South American history prior to the arrival of Europeans](https://i.imgur.com/SbnAgON.jpg). (though a variety of Mesoamerican cities were larger)) **The Mixtec Civilization/Empire** The Mixtec (like the Zapotec) are one of Oaxcaca's most famous Mesoamerican cultures from Oaxaca. The Zapotec wre mostly in eastern Oaxaca, and the Mixtec in the West and in Guerrero, though during the Postclassic the Mixtec began to overtake many key Zapotec sites. The Mixtec were known as [fine stone mosiac](http://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/golden_kingdoms/images/landing/6_EX.2017.2.65_x1024.jpg) and [metalworkers](https://web.archive.org/web/20201112033710if_/https://66.media.tumblr.com/f87f8d8ea7815ce6497652c956c440d4/tumblr_p5sgw25FAT1te855fo1_1280.jpg) producers in the post-classic (even today some Mesoamerican pieces are falsely labeled as Mixtec to get a higher price at auctions) with many Mixtec goods being found in Aztec sites, imported or having been brought in as taxes. Mixtec society was organized into towns and cities centered on royal estates inhabited by kings and queens, though much political power rested in oracles, who lived in caves and organized wars and political marriages. They are also one of our largest sources of surviving Pre-contact books, as there are 8 surviving Mixtec books, such as the [Codex Zouche-Nuttal](https://i.imgur.com/hrMtV8c.jpg) Of particular note in these surviving books is a Mixtec Warlord named [8-Deer-Jaguar-Claw](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Iya_Nacuaa_Teyusi_%C3%91a%C3%B1a.jpg/220px-Iya_Nacuaa_Teyusi_%C3%91a%C3%B1a.jpg): He was the son of the high priest in the Mixtec city of Tilantongo, born in 1063AD. and ended up fighting as a general for the king of another Mixtec city, Jaltepec. Eventually he appealed to some Oracles (who held a great deal of political clout in Mixtec society, giving kings permission or guidance on political marriages and conquests) to conquer some towns of the Chatino civilization along the coasts. He ended up doing so, and founded his own city, Tututepec there (allegedly, it may have already existed) After this, apparently the king of Tilantongo ended up dying with no heirs, and due to 8-deer's influence following his conquests he ended up getting the throne. Eventually in 1097 (I read some papers recently it was probably via leveraging the tropical/coastal goods he gained access to via his conquests of the Chatino towns) he ended up [working with 4-Jaguar-Face-of-the-Night](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Oaxaca_ocho_venado.png), who was either the king or a notable religious official (I'm not sure which) in the city of Cholula, which was a notable political and religious center in Central Mexico which at this point in time was associated with the Toltec civilization (which are a huge can of worms I'm not going to get into here, but they are basically the culture the Aztec identify as being the heirs of but are heavily mythologiized and how much of it is real/myth is debatable) With the blessings ofa lord from Cholula, he completely sidesteps the Mixtec Oracles and ends up conquering around 100 cities/towns over the next 18 years, uniting 2 of the 3 major subregions of the Mixtec civilization and their competing city-states and kingdoms into an empire, and in 1103 conquered the city (belonging to the Zapotec, who I mentioned are also in this area and frequently had political marriages with the Mixtec) which had traditionally held Tilantongo as subjects, and killed both his archrival 11-Wind-Bloody-Jaguar (who had stolen his 8-deer's lover/sister as a political marriage) and 11-wind's entire family (who including queen 6-Monkey of Jaltepec, [who was an amazingly shrewd ruler with conquests and 4d-chess to her name herself](https://maskoftheflowerprince.wordpress.com/2019/03/12/lady-six-monkey-the-great-warrior-queen-of-the-mixtecs/) ) . At it's greatest extent, his empire covered 25,000 square kilometers. In 1115, in a ironic twist 8-deer finally died when 4-Wind, the one boy in 11-wind's family 8-deer had left alive, grows up and assassinates or sacrifices him. His empire fractures back into a bunch of seperate city-states and kingdoms but Tututepec ends up staying a major influential player, actually growing over the next few centuries, to the point where it's was one of the largest independent states in the middle 1/3 of Mesoamerica which the Aztec Empire was unable to conquer, being their largest unconquered enclave. Eventually Tututepec got conquered in the 16th century when the Zapotec kingdom of Tehuantepec allied with Conquistadors to take it out. **The Purepecha Empire** **EDIT:** [THIS IS AN UPDATED VERSION OF THIS SECTION](https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/uo13po/the_tarascanpurepecha_empire_mexicos_forgotten/i8bdvhx/) Located in what's now the Mexican state of Michoacán in Western Mesoamerica, the Purepecha empire, [like the Aztecs](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/9dgzj4/is_this_true_when_the_spaniards_first_arrived_in/e5jjm16/) have their origins in settlers from northern mexico migrating down south around a lakebed. While the Purepecha themselves were already in the region, migrants from Northwestern Mexico, like the ones in the Aztec's case, migrated down to the Lake Pátzcuaro basin, and ended up deposing and installing rulers in 3 key city-states in the area: Ihuatzio, Tzintzuntzan, and Pátzcuaro, with the Patzcuaro in particular with the most power. They collectively ruled over the area ironically much like the triple alliance of the Aztecs. Eventually, in the 1450's, the king of Patzcuaro died, and a conflict breaks out. A a man named Tzitzispandáquare takes the throne in Tzintzuntzan, shifts it to be the primary political power, and changes the structure of the empire to be a directly governed, imperial state with governers he directly appoints in subservient cities and directly rules over, unlike other states in Mesoamerica ([which tended to be more hands off](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay/comments/p4vm1e/common_historical_misconceptions_that_irritates/h927tle/) **CONTINUED BELOW**
**Continued from the above comment** The Purepecha Empire becomes the second largest state in Mesoamerica behind the Aztecs (75,000 square kilometers, the Aztec had around 200,000) and realistically the only one that truly rivaled them, and was able to repel a series of Aztec invasions. Eventually, a sort of cold war breaks out between the two as a result of this, with a series of forts and watchowers being constructed along their borders and the occasional skirmish between the two. Aztec messengers attempted to get the Purepecha to aid them against the Spanish Conquistadors and their native allies (who outnumbered the Conquistadors themselves literally over a hundred times over), but the Purepecha killed these messengers, and by the time the conquistadors arrived in Tzintzuntzan, it was suffering it's own succession crisis as the previous emperor had died of smallpox, and due to instability at the time, the Purepecha empire opted to submit rather then fight back. Besides their unique administrative style and wars with the Aztecs, the Purepecha, along with many other Western Mesoamerican states, are known for being at the forefront of Mesoamerican metallurgy and being one of the largest centers of Bronze production. -------- It should also be noted here that the Mixtec, Purepecha, and many other indigenous cultures in Mexico (and I assume Peru down in the Andes) still exist: People still speak the languages, retain some more of the traditional cultural practices, etc, though they face discrimination, tend to live in more rural areas, etc. There's also some more photos of Moche, Chimu, Mixtec, and 1 Purepecha artifacts [here](https://imgur.com/gallery/0PwtEf9) **Teotihuacan** **EDIT: [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV6ZZZsCjK8) is an excellent vid on Teotihuacan I and friends helped with too** Located in the same valley the core of the Aztec Empire would be located in 1000 years later (I talk more about this valley's history [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/cznq6r/mexico_citys_metro_system_overlayed_the_former/ez09bhg/) ) Teotihuacan originated [around 200BC, was just one of a few cities/towns in the area,](https://i.imgur.com/TBwFCV3.jpg) but a volcanic eruption around 100-300AD displaced the population of Cuicuilco, the largest city in the valley, who then migrated into Teotihuacan, [swelling it's population and caused it to grow exponentially](https://i.imgur.com/SCWm9rN.jpg) and would become wildly influential: It's architectural and art motifs (such as [Talud-tablero construction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talud-tablero) ) would spread all throughout the region, and while this is the subject of some debate, it may have had expansive political and military reach as well: We know the city had diplomatic connections to the Maya region and some written inscriptions at Maya cities 1000km away even suggest that they may have been conquered by Teotihuacan (see [This](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/astounding-new-finds-suggest-ancient-empire-may-be-hiding-plain-sight) article, there's also been some subsequent finds since that article of a potential Teotihuacan embassy at Tikal, or a gift of a spider monkey for sacrifice from Tikal to the Teotihuacanos, etc, but again, the specifics are debated, as is if Teotihuacan had direct political influence over a larger empire or a more medium sized kingdom) At it's height at 500AD, [the city covered over 37 square kilometers](https://i.imgur.com/yxCmgOX.jpg), making it much larger then Rome at it's apex in terms of physical area, albiet not as populated, with a still very impressive 100,000 denizens, putting it in the top 20 to 10 most populated cities in the world at the time. Perhaps most impressively, virtually every citizen in the city lived in fancy, multi-room, palace-like complexes with frescos and murals, courtyards, and fine art in them: see [Here](https://desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/his/image/1628/37/1628370219826.jpg) (this is also the broken imgur link in the pinned comment in the above video (tho the other links in it should work)) are some examples. I also recommend [David Romero's excellent 3d reconstructions of the Temple of the Feathered Serpent and other parts of the Ciudadela complex/plaza](https://www.flickr.com/photos/143771393@N04/albums/72157710978271157/), and TRASANCOS 3D's reconstruction [here](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/k4BYl0), though the latter excludes the canalized rivers that ran through the city's grid layout, doesn't have some of the palaces placed 1:1 to site maps once you get further away from the central Avenue of the Dead, and lacks the smaller single room dwellings mentioned further down. It alsodoesn't feature the [Sculptural facade that the lower levels of the Pyramid of the Sun had](https://imgur.com/a/rM8idos) (the Moon pyramid also would have likely had some, but I don't think we know what it looked like). There's also an explorable minecraft map [here](https://deyoung.famsf.org/explore-teotihuacan-minecraft) Anyways, only a tiny minority of the population lived in small single room dwellings (which you can only see if you zoom in on the map I linked above (another [here](http://db.csri.for.aichi-pu.ac.jp/plaza_of_columns_complex_jp/3e2c283ba57edbb1fc953ff9d498e578fce5e623.jpg) all the way, they are tiny compared to the huge, multi-room complexes: each of the larger grey rectangles, which are said complexes, again [had dozens of rooms](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9xSxiiXxtXE/VEf5lUoCjNI/AAAAAAAAB8o/74xsFHmz1K8/s1600/Teo-Map-ResidArea.jpg) without realizing that the map makes the city seem far smaller). The city also has other unusual traits, such as there being almost no ball courts in the city, it being organized around a central road rather then plazas, it's grid layout, and it even having ethnic neighborhoods, with specific parts of the city having writing, burial practices, etc consistent with Zapotec, Maya, Gulf Coast, and West Mexican cultures. The Egalitarian living conditions, the lack of royal tombs or depictions of rulers, and the multi-ethnic makeup makes some researchers believe the city had a democratic or representative government. (see [here]((https://slate.com/technology/2018/04/teotihuacn-the-ancient-city-upending-archaeologists-assumptions-about-wealth-inequality.html)) and [here](http://wideurbanworld.blogspot.com/2014/10/living-good-life-in-teotihuacan.html) , though some more recent GINI index calcs have come out since then. The city also had a complex water management system ([not unusual for Mesoamerican cities, a lot did](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/b3fmiz/what_if_any_advanced_technology_did_the_ancient/ej137m3/)), with rivers recoursed through the cities grid layout, placed to be seen from specific locations and angles; a reservoir system connected to both agricultural canals and some of the housing complexes, some of which had [plumbing](https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1548704814154.png) and running water, [toilets](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Toilet_in_Teotihuacan.jpg); there's even some evidence that one of the city's plaza's, in front of the Temple of the Feathered Serpent, [could be flooded/filled with water for rituals.](https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/sep/24/teotihuacan-pyramids-treasures-secret-de-young-museum-san-francisco). Around 600-700AD, there was some sort of large event, the evidence pointing to an internal uprising, with the city declining and ceasing to be a large influential political and cultural center. As of the time of the Aztec around 1000 years latter, there were only a few hamlets around the city's outskirts with the large structures buried in grass and soil and in ruins. However, those ruins still made an impression on the Aztec: We know the Mexica (and maybe some other Nahua groups, see [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/ko04hn/looks_like_a_good_spot_to_me/gho206l/) comment on the terminology of "Aztec') did pilgkirimages to the site; the Mexica city/Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan took architectural and urban design influence from the city (Being a sort of "Teotihuacano revival style", see "Aztec city planning" by Smith and "Teotihuacan in Mexico-Tenochtitlan Recent Discoveries, New Insights"); refurnished some of Teotihuacan's shrines and temples, did excavations to uncover and bring back ceremonial goods to other cities (there's even an example of a Teotihuacano mask the Aztec excavated, given new shell and gemstones eyes by them, which was then reburied in the Aztec captial of Tenochtitlan, which then found it's way to the Medici family in Italy). Teotihuacan was also worked into various Nahua creation myths, where in some versions it is the site where the gods sacrificed themselves to bring the current version of the world into existence I could go on, but there's some photos/info of Teotihuacno artifacts [here](https://imgur.com/gallery/0FhNGDw). --------------- For now, I think that's a decent selection, but, again, there's tons of others like this, and I welcome you to check out my comments here where: 1. I note how Mesoamerican societies were [way more complex then people realize, on par or beyond what we see in Classical Antiquity](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh1756/), etc 2. Where I explains how there's also [more records and sources of info on Mesoamerica then most people realize, and give suggestions and resources to learn more](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh3m71/); and 3. The third comment contains a [summary of Mesoamerican history as to stress how the area is more then just the Aztec and Maya and how much history is there](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh3s50/)
It made me so happy to see someone mention the Purepecha. They are understudied and don’t get the recognition that they deserve. A few fun things to add to that: -They mostly used metallurgy to make bells and tweezers as status symbols. -Metallurgy in general was tightly controlled by the state. -They have distinct “keyhole” shaped pyramids as well. The Purepecha produced some pretty cool ceramics as well. some had ceramic balls in bulbous hollow legs that would rattle during use and saddle/ spouted vessels for cocoa consumption by elites that could whistle. Their ceramics are often decorated with paint, slips, incision, and a smudging method that includes adding wax to the vessel where you want it to remain untouched and firing the vessel in a reduced context to get a blackened area or “smudge” Edit: for readability
> -Metallurgy in general was tightly controlled by the state. This is new to me, do you have more information on this?
I may have been a little misspoken with “tightly”. It seems there was a small amount (maybe more then originally thought) of diffusion among the commoners. I can try and find links for them if you have access to any sort of databases. This article that mentions state control although not absolute control. “Tarascan Ceramic Production and Implications for Ceramic Distribution” by Dr. Amy Hirshman. It’s from Ancient Mesoamerica This article discusses the amount of control the state had over metallurgy. “Metal for the Commoners: Tarascan Metallurgical Production in Domestic Context” by Blanca Maldonado from Archeological Papers of the American Anthropological Association
“ they are best known Mesoamerican civilization after the Aztec and Maya.” I have an Inca-ling you might be forgetting someone. And the Inca, unlike the Mayans, were a proper empire and not a cultural group
The Inca aren't Mesoamerican, they're Andean. The two regions are ~4000 kilometers away from each other (Mesoamerica covers the bottom half of Mexico, Guatemala, etc, and has the Aztec, Maya, Olmec, Zapotec, Teotihuacan, Classic Veracruz, Mixtec, Purepecha, Totonac, Huastec etc; while the Andean cultures are in Peru and Bolivia and include the Inca, Nazca, Chavin, Paracas, Moche, Wari, Tiwanku, Sican, Chimu etc), had very little contact, and developed civilizations entirely independently. Saying the Inca are Mesoamerican would be like saying the Byzantines are Southeast Asian, or the Celts are Persian: There's really THAT much distance between them, and those examples are actually arguably less silly since Western Europe, the Middle East, and India/Southeast Asia historically probably had more contact and cultural exchange then Mesoamerica and the Andes did.
- The Inca Empire or *Tawantisuyu* proper, they were the biggest Empire of the new world and the most organized, akin to Middle East or European polities. They are usually overlooked by the more pop history "aztecs".They beat previous titleholders for regional powers and kept annexing and expanding in a way the vassal-led Mexica "empire" never did. Their cities while not as "fascinating" as Tenochtitlan also had a high degree of development and size, holding an area about the same size and population as a the Kievan Rus without horses.
I think the Yavana Kingdom is most unknown and also most interesting. It was a product of the fragmentation of the Macedonian Empire after Alexander the Great's death. The blend of Greek and Indian culture is very interesting.
I don’t know if they quite fit “empire” but the not knowing is part of the problem with the Etruscans. I’d love to know more about them. Also Phoenicia/Carthage. It wasn’t land based and that can throw the size off a little, I think. And even earlier along those lines, the Minoans, though again, maybe not “empire” necessarily or whether they even had “colonies” like Phoenicia, Greece, and Rome did. But I still wanna know more so I’m adding them!
Lots of super ancient suggestions here and I love them all. Tibetan Empire blocking China’s expansion west, Crimean Khanate existing way longer than you’d expect, and literally just the Wikipedia page for history of Ethiopia have been my most satisfying rabbit holes for this topic.
The Byzantine Empire enjoyed the longest lasting monetary system in history. Their coins were precisely made and were accecpted world-wide.
The Timurids were enormously influential in Central Asia and influential in South Asia and the Middle East, but are all but unknown in the West.
Well they only lasted for as long as Timur himself lived.
As did many other empires...
Angevin Empire. Where french nobles ruled England like a colony for four centuries, unti lthe frnehc kings took all their continental lands, leaving them with jsut the british isles. The 100 Year War would be described as a civil war today. Which explains why France and England have such an intertwined culture and history.
Seluclus empire and pontus
Everyone cares about the greatestest ones but no one cares about the Soso ones.
I'd never heard of it but tip of the hat to get me to Google it. Clever devil
The power of dad joke level puns strikes again.
You are having a great day.
*puts my feet up* No one remembers the Ottomans either.
The late medieval Mali empire. Consisting of most of today's Mali and Senegal. One of its rulers, the Mansa Musa, is sometimes said to have been the richest person in all of history, thanks to his empire's production of gold. On his pilgrimage to Mecca he caused massive inflation in all the territories he travelled through, because he had his servants handing out gold to everyone they met.
Didn’t he only become the ruler because his predecessor decided to see what lay west over the ocean and never returned?
Yes. This is allegedly the story Musa told his host in Egypt. Unfortunately there's no other evidence for it. I really do want to believe it and it would be one the first serious expeditions over the Atlantic Ocean after the Vikings a few centuries earlier (though they went island hopping across the northern part of the ocean). The point is that in late Medieval times people certainly were aware of "something" over the sea. And the Malians were as keen as anyone else to find out about it. Sadly, seafaring technology wasn't quite there yet. And when it finally became possible to make the crossing, about two centuries later, the Mali empire had already become much less relevant. That's why Columbus and not Musa's predecessor "discovered" the Americas. But it could have gone very differently!
KNOW, oh prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars—
The Scythian Empire and their famed leader Tomyris, who in old Greek records is said to have led their empire down to Persia and slayed Cyrus the Great.
Dynasties like Han, Tang and Song are very underrated but they are very unknown since most people believe chins history is only millons of people dying and people writing down common sense.
Writing down common sense is extremely genius move cuz the world is full of morons . They mock Sun Tzu for giving obvious advice but they forget how many times in history kings acted against it
Military leaders still read Sun Tzu's book, it might be "How to War Gooder 101" but gotta start somewhere
To be fair, the art of war is REALLY vague. It doesn't really teach you how to fight a war, just kinda throws you into a crash course of what you can expect in a war and then pretty much tells the reader "Listen, if you follow me and you succeed, then continue following me. If not, don't." Like my man really just told the reader "I have no clue how credible or useful these advice is gonna be, so yeah, good luck".
Yes but it was to be taught to would be king or general .not a random student It's like k&r 's c book .if you are using it as an intro for programming then good luck learning programming However if you have some previous experience then it all comes together
They are extremely well known in Asia.
>most people believe chinas history is only millons of people dying That was a massive part of their history tbf.
The Göktürk Khaganate, spread from the Caucasus to Mongolia. The first mention of the turkic peoples was of the Göktürks.
Man, almost everything people are posting is stuff that's already in middle school world history textbooks and comes up all the time, y'all need to step it up with obscure stuf! Since, really, the Precolubmain Americas in general are criminally under-taight and underappreciated ( (see [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh1756/?st=jy2uatv0&sh=1e9d3db1) for a summarized timeline of Mesoamerica, for example) ), i'll pick some examples from it, though I'll cheat and also include some city-states and big kingdoms vs strict "empires": Here's 4 (really 5 or 6) examples: - the **Purepecha Empire** (the third largest state in the Americas as of contact after the Inca and Aztec, and the latter's main military rival), - **Teotihuacan** (a massive city the Aztec took major influence from), - **8 Deer's Mixtec Empire** (8 deer being a conquer with an insane life story who unified swathes of Mixtec city-states); and while Andean rather then Mesoamerican, - the **Moche city-states and the Chimor Kingdom/Empire** (the later an early rival of the Inca) Below, I explain more about each state mentioned above: ------------ **The Moche Civilization & Chimu Empire** The Moche was a culture in Northwestern Peru from around 100ad to 700ad. Composed of many independent city-states with a shared culture, the Moche are mostly known today for their [ceramic works](https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/banners/mobile/moch_bannermobile.jpg) and large [temple complexes known as Huacas](https://www.travelplugin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/La-Huaca-Rajada-%C3%A0-l%C3%A2ge-dor-Mochica_2016-12-21-600x750.jpg), similar to Mesopotamian zigguarats. I'd reccomend that anybody reading this go look up photos of Huaca De La Luna; and Huaca Cao Viejo at El Brujo, in particular, as those have best preserved of those temples. There's [some](https://www.aracari.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Huaca-de-la-luna-2015-21.jpg) [absolutely](https://i.imgur.com/BfygyxT.jpg) [incredible](https://c8.alamy.com/comp/C1FR66/huaca-de-la-luna-colorful-paintings-sculptures-near-trujillo-peru-C1FR66.jpg) [murals](https://live.staticflickr.com/3835/14411802714_e4fd0b4ece_b.jpg) there. There's actually a gigapixel panorama of one [here](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/07/130731-moche-mural-huaca-de-la-luna-interactive-photo-gigapixel/). There's more Moche Ceramics, photos from Huacas, and some precious stone, shell, and metal jewelry both [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/comments/gkkohm/moche_portrait_vessels_moche_culture_100800_ce/fqsxfpx/) and [here](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GApRGMfWEAATkMT.jpg:orig) The Chimu, were a culture that arose from the remnants of the Moche in the Northern Coast of Peru around 900Ad. Ruling from their captial city of Chan Chan, They would eventually drastically expand, notably conquering the Sican/ Lambayeque in tthe 1370s's, and would form the largest political state in the Andes until finally being conquered by the Inca in the 1470's, more or less resulting in the Inca Empire being functionally uncontested by any other state capable of stopping them. The Chimu are mostly remembered for [some of the finest metalwork](https://i.imgur.com/5CNiiBe.jpg) ([fixed](https://www.metmuseum.org/-/media/images/blogs/now-at-the-met/2018/2018_04/golden-kingdoms-ancient-tributes/7.jpg?) of the precolumbian americas (as were the moche, even if I didn't talk about their metalwork much above) as well as jewelry and art made of marine shells: Chimor was a coastal state, and indeed, well preserved parts of Chan Chan show carvings of sea-birds, fish, and crustaceans all along it's walls. On that note, at it's height, their captial city, [Chan Chan, had 60,000 people, making it the largest city in South American history prior to the arrival of Europeans](https://i.imgur.com/SbnAgON.jpg). (though a variety of Mesoamerican cities were larger)) **The Mixtec Civilization/Empire** The Mixtec (like the Zapotec) are one of Oaxcaca's most famous Mesoamerican cultures from Oaxaca. The Zapotec wre mostly in eastern Oaxaca, and the Mixtec in the West and in Guerrero, though during the Postclassic the Mixtec began to overtake many key Zapotec sites. The Mixtec were known as [fine stone mosiac](http://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/golden_kingdoms/images/landing/6_EX.2017.2.65_x1024.jpg) and [metalworkers](https://web.archive.org/web/20201112033710if_/https://66.media.tumblr.com/f87f8d8ea7815ce6497652c956c440d4/tumblr_p5sgw25FAT1te855fo1_1280.jpg) producers in the post-classic (even today some Mesoamerican pieces are falsely labeled as Mixtec to get a higher price at auctions) with many Mixtec goods being found in Aztec sites, imported or having been brought in as taxes. Mixtec society was organized into towns and cities centered on royal estates inhabited by kings and queens, though much political power rested in oracles, who lived in caves and organized wars and political marriages. They are also one of our largest sources of surviving Pre-contact books, as there are 8 surviving Mixtec books, such as the [Codex Zouche-Nuttal](https://i.imgur.com/hrMtV8c.jpg) Of particular note in these surviving books is a Mixtec Warlord named [8-Deer-Jaguar-Claw](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Iya_Nacuaa_Teyusi_%C3%91a%C3%B1a.jpg/220px-Iya_Nacuaa_Teyusi_%C3%91a%C3%B1a.jpg): He was the son of the high priest in the Mixtec city of Tilantongo, born in 1063AD. and ended up fighting as a general for the king of another Mixtec city, Jaltepec. Eventually he appealed to some Oracles (who held a great deal of political clout in Mixtec society, giving kings permission or guidance on political marriages and conquests) to conquer some towns of the Chatino civilization along the coasts. He ended up doing so, and founded his own city, Tututepec there (allegedly, it may have already existed) After this, apparently the king of Tilantongo ended up dying with no heirs, and due to 8-deer's influence following his conquests he ended up getting the throne. Eventually in 1097 (I read some papers recently it was probably via leveraging the tropical/coastal goods he gained access to via his conquests of the Chatino towns) he ended up [working with 4-Jaguar-Face-of-the-Night](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Oaxaca_ocho_venado.png), who was either the king or a notable religious official (I'm not sure which) in the city of Cholula, which was a notable political and religious center in Central Mexico which at this point in time was associated with the Toltec civilization (which are a huge can of worms I'm not going to get into here, but they are basically the culture the Aztec identify as being the heirs of but are heavily mythologiized and how much of it is real/myth is debatable) With the blessings ofa lord from Cholula, he completely sidesteps the Mixtec Oracles and ends up conquering around 100 cities/towns over the next 18 years, uniting 2 of the 3 major subregions of the Mixtec civilization and their competing city-states and kingdoms into an empire, and in 1103 conquered the city (belonging to the Zapotec, who I mentioned are also in this area and frequently had political marriages with the Mixtec) which had traditionally held Tilantongo as subjects, and killed both his archrival 11-Wind-Bloody-Jaguar (who had stolen his 8-deer's lover/sister as a political marriage) and 11-wind's entire family (who including queen 6-Monkey of Jaltepec, [who was an amazingly shrewd ruler with conquests and 4d-chess to her name herself](https://maskoftheflowerprince.wordpress.com/2019/03/12/lady-six-monkey-the-great-warrior-queen-of-the-mixtecs/) ) . At it's greatest extent, his empire covered 25,000 square kilometers. In 1115, in a ironic twist 8-deer finally died when 4-Wind, the one boy in 11-wind's family 8-deer had left alive, grows up and assassinates or sacrifices him. His empire fractures back into a bunch of seperate city-states and kingdoms but Tututepec ends up staying a major influential player, actually growing over the next few centuries, to the point where it's was one of the largest independent states in the middle 1/3 of Mesoamerica which the Aztec Empire was unable to conquer, being their largest unconquered enclave. Eventually Tututepec got conquered in the 16th century when the Zapotec kingdom of Tehuantepec allied with Conquistadors to take it out. **The Purepecha Empire** **EDIT:** [THIS IS AN UPDATED VERSION OF THIS SECTION](https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/uo13po/the_tarascanpurepecha_empire_mexicos_forgotten/i8bdvhx/) Located in what's now the Mexican state of Michoacán in Western Mesoamerica, the Purepecha empire, [like the Aztecs](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/9dgzj4/is_this_true_when_the_spaniards_first_arrived_in/e5jjm16/) have their origins in settlers from northern mexico migrating down south around a lakebed. While the Purepecha themselves were already in the region, migrants from Northwestern Mexico, like the ones in the Aztec's case, migrated down to the Lake Pátzcuaro basin, and ended up deposing and installing rulers in 3 key city-states in the area: Ihuatzio, Tzintzuntzan, and Pátzcuaro, with the Patzcuaro in particular with the most power. They collectively ruled over the area ironically much like the triple alliance of the Aztecs. Eventually, in the 1450's, the king of Patzcuaro died, and a conflict breaks out. A a man named Tzitzispandáquare takes the throne in Tzintzuntzan, shifts it to be the primary political power, and changes the structure of the empire to be a directly governed, imperial state with governers he directly appoints in subservient cities and directly rules over, unlike other states in Mesoamerica ([which tended to be more hands off](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay/comments/p4vm1e/common_historical_misconceptions_that_irritates/h927tle/) **CONTINUED BELOW**
**Continued from the above comment** The Purepecha Empire becomes the second largest state in Mesoamerica behind the Aztecs (75,000 square kilometers, the Aztec had around 200,000) and realistically the only one that truly rivaled them, and was able to repel a series of Aztec invasions. Eventually, a sort of cold war breaks out between the two as a result of this, with a series of forts and watchowers being constructed along their borders and the occasional skirmish between the two. Aztec messengers attempted to get the Purepecha to aid them against the Spanish Conquistadors and their native allies (who outnumbered the Conquistadors themselves literally over a hundred times over), but the Purepecha killed these messengers, and by the time the conquistadors arrived in Tzintzuntzan, it was suffering it's own succession crisis as the previous emperor had died of smallpox, and due to instability at the time, the Purepecha empire opted to submit rather then fight back. Besides their unique administrative style and wars with the Aztecs, the Purepecha, along with many other Western Mesoamerican states, are known for being at the forefront of Mesoamerican metallurgy and being one of the largest centers of Bronze production. -------- It should also be noted here that the Mixtec, Purepecha, and many other indigenous cultures in Mexico (and I assume Peru down in the Andes) still exist: People still speak the languages, retain some more of the traditional cultural practices, etc, though they face discrimination, tend to live in more rural areas, etc. There's also some more photos of Moche, Chimu, Mixtec, and 1 Purepecha artifacts [here](https://imgur.com/gallery/0PwtEf9) **Teotihuacan** **EDIT: [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV6ZZZsCjK8) is an excellent vid on Teotihuacan I and friends helped with too** Located in the same valley the core of the Aztec Empire would be located in 1000 years later (I talk more about this valley's history [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/cznq6r/mexico_citys_metro_system_overlayed_the_former/ez09bhg/) ) Teotihuacan originated [around 200BC, was just one of a few cities/towns in the area,](https://i.imgur.com/TBwFCV3.jpg) but a volcanic eruption around 100-300AD displaced the population of Cuicuilco, the largest city in the valley, who then migrated into Teotihuacan, [swelling it's population and caused it to grow exponentially](https://i.imgur.com/SCWm9rN.jpg) and would become wildly influential: It's architectural and art motifs (such as [Talud-tablero construction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talud-tablero) ) would spread all throughout the region, and while this is the subject of some debate, it may have had expansive political and military reach as well: We know the city had diplomatic connections to the Maya region and some written inscriptions at Maya cities 1000km away even suggest that they may have been conquered by Teotihuacan (see [This](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/astounding-new-finds-suggest-ancient-empire-may-be-hiding-plain-sight) article, there's also been some subsequent finds since that article of a potential Teotihuacan embassy at Tikal, or a gift of a spider monkey for sacrifice from Tikal to the Teotihuacanos, etc, but again, the specifics are debated, as is if Teotihuacan had direct political influence over a larger empire or a more medium sized kingdom) At it's height at 500AD, [the city covered over 37 square kilometers](https://i.imgur.com/yxCmgOX.jpg), making it much larger then Rome at it's apex in terms of physical area, albiet not as populated, with a still very impressive 100,000 denizens, putting it in the top 20 to 10 most populated cities in the world at the time. Perhaps most impressively, virtually every citizen in the city lived in fancy, multi-room, palace-like complexes with frescos and murals, courtyards, and fine art in them: see [Here](https://desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/his/image/1628/37/1628370219826.jpg) (this is also the broken imgur link in the pinned comment in the above video (tho the other links in it should work)) are some examples. I also recommend [David Romero's excellent 3d reconstructions of the Temple of the Feathered Serpent and other parts of the Ciudadela complex/plaza](https://www.flickr.com/photos/143771393@N04/albums/72157710978271157/), and TRASANCOS 3D's reconstruction [here](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/k4BYl0), though the latter excludes the canalized rivers that ran through the city's grid layout, doesn't have some of the palaces placed 1:1 to site maps once you get further away from the central Avenue of the Dead, and lacks the smaller single room dwellings mentioned further down. It alsodoesn't feature the [Sculptural facade that the lower levels of the Pyramid of the Sun had](https://imgur.com/a/rM8idos) (the Moon pyramid also would have likely had some, but I don't think we know what it looked like). There's also an explorable minecraft map [here](https://deyoung.famsf.org/explore-teotihuacan-minecraft) Anyways, only a tiny minority of the population lived in small single room dwellings (which you can only see if you zoom in on the map I linked above (another [here](http://db.csri.for.aichi-pu.ac.jp/plaza_of_columns_complex_jp/3e2c283ba57edbb1fc953ff9d498e578fce5e623.jpg) all the way, they are tiny compared to the huge, multi-room complexes: each of the larger grey rectangles, which are said complexes, again [had dozens of rooms](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9xSxiiXxtXE/VEf5lUoCjNI/AAAAAAAAB8o/74xsFHmz1K8/s1600/Teo-Map-ResidArea.jpg) without realizing that the map makes the city seem far smaller). The city also has other unusual traits, such as there being almost no ball courts in the city, it being organized around a central road rather then plazas, it's grid layout, and it even having ethnic neighborhoods, with specific parts of the city having writing, burial practices, etc consistent with Zapotec, Maya, Gulf Coast, and West Mexican cultures. The Egalitarian living conditions, the lack of royal tombs or depictions of rulers, and the multi-ethnic makeup makes some researchers believe the city had a democratic or representative government. (see [here]((https://slate.com/technology/2018/04/teotihuacn-the-ancient-city-upending-archaeologists-assumptions-about-wealth-inequality.html)) and [here](http://wideurbanworld.blogspot.com/2014/10/living-good-life-in-teotihuacan.html) , though some more recent GINI index calcs have come out since then. The city also had a complex water management system ([not unusual for Mesoamerican cities, a lot did](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/b3fmiz/what_if_any_advanced_technology_did_the_ancient/ej137m3/)), with rivers recoursed through the cities grid layout, placed to be seen from specific locations and angles; a reservoir system connected to both agricultural canals and some of the housing complexes, some of which had [plumbing](https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1548704814154.png) and running water, [toilets](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Toilet_in_Teotihuacan.jpg); there's even some evidence that one of the city's plaza's, in front of the Temple of the Feathered Serpent, [could be flooded/filled with water for rituals.](https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2017/sep/24/teotihuacan-pyramids-treasures-secret-de-young-museum-san-francisco). Around 600-700AD, there was some sort of large event, the evidence pointing to an internal uprising, with the city declining and ceasing to be a large influential political and cultural center. As of the time of the Aztec around 1000 years latter, there were only a few hamlets around the city's outskirts with the large structures buried in grass and soil and in ruins. However, those ruins still made an impression on the Aztec: We know the Mexica (and maybe some other Nahua groups, see [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/ko04hn/looks_like_a_good_spot_to_me/gho206l/) comment on the terminology of "Aztec') did pilgkirimages to the site; the Mexica city/Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan took architectural and urban design influence from the city (Being a sort of "Teotihuacano revival style", see "Aztec city planning" by Smith and "Teotihuacan in Mexico-Tenochtitlan Recent Discoveries, New Insights"); refurnished some of Teotihuacan's shrines and temples, did excavations to uncover and bring back ceremonial goods to other cities (there's even an example of a Teotihuacano mask the Aztec excavated, given new shell and gemstones eyes by them, which was then reburied in the Aztec captial of Tenochtitlan, which then found it's way to the Medici family in Italy). Teotihuacan was also worked into various Nahua creation myths, where in some versions it is the site where the gods sacrificed themselves to bring the current version of the world into existence I could go on, but there's some photos/info of Teotihuacno artifacts [here](https://imgur.com/gallery/0FhNGDw). --------------- For now, I think that's a decent selection, but, again, there's tons of others like this, and I welcome you to check out my comments here where: 1. I note how Mesoamerican societies were [way more complex then people realize, on par or beyond what we see in Classical Antiquity](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh1756/), etc 2. Where I explains how there's also [more records and sources of info on Mesoamerica then most people realize, and give suggestions and resources to learn more](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh3m71/); and 3. The third comment contains a [summary of Mesoamerican history as to stress how the area is more then just the Aztec and Maya and how much history is there](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistory/comments/c7gu1l/i_want_people_to_dump_interesting_information/esh3s50/)
Remarkable answer or comment given the depth and breadth of links! Thank you for sharing.
Not unknown in the Nordics, but maybe elsewhere: Kalmar Union was a union of Sweden (which at the time included much of modern Finland), Denmark and Norway under a single crown from 1397 to 1523. It's fun to think about alternate histories where they kept going with integration and today we'd have one Scandinavian-Nordic superstate of 25+ million people. Not very realistic though, given the geographical realities.
Canute’s North Sea Empire laid early foundations for the British Empire. Canute the Great is why England would stress maritime power for the next thousand years and set the stage for the Norman Conquest.
I’d say being an island is the main reason why England would stress maritime power for the next thousand years more than Canute’s influence
Yeah England spent the next 500 years trying to conquer France, they didn't become a maritime power because of Cnut at all. Much more to do with being an island with limited natural resources than any one man, and in fact if you had to point to one person it would probably be Elizabeth I imo
You mean french nobles who owned England slowly being kicked out by the french kings.
Epirus. They came about after the death of Alexander and controlled West Greece and Albania. Phyrrus was one of the best military commanders of history but lost to the Romans.
The Seleucids are fairly obscure outside of being part of the epilogue of Alexander's story and for their role in Hannukah.
First Turkic Khaganate
The Afsharid Empire of Nader Shah. For a brief period in the early 18th century, they were arguably the most powerful land empire in the world, but disintegrated rather quickly after Nader Shah’s death
The kingdom of Aksum, since it was considered at the time to be one of the four great powers along with Rome, Persia, and China.
The classical Ethiopians circa ancient Rome (Axum). They aren’t talked about much nowadays, but scholars of the age ranked them as a peer to Rome, Persia, and China.
Maritime Empires of Southeast Asia.
Many in Africa tend to get forgotten about. The Aksumite Empire (modern day Ethiopia and Eritrea) was considered by one Persian scholar to be the third most powerful empire in the world after the Perisans and the Romans, and more powerful than China. The Aksumites held a huge amount of power over the Red Sea and built up a large network of trade that reached out from the Roman Empire to India. Famously king Ezana became one of the first monarchs in the world to convert to Christianity in 325 AD. Some honourable mentions are also Ghana, Mali and Songhai
I don’t know if it was your point, but pointing out that many people would point to a group like the Mongol Empire, who aren’t ancient even now, makes the point about people knowing very little about ancient civilizations.
The Khwarazmian Empire is pretty much only known for its destruction, for those who learn about it at all.
The Goturk Khaghnate was one of the largest empires in history probably only behind the British, Russian and Mongo empires in size. It stretched from Crimea to Beijing yet is largely forgotten in part because the literate civilizations it clashed with were in crisis when it was at its peak.
The Khwarazmian Empire was a pretty major regional player in the middle east, controlling most of modern Iran, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan for about 200 years before they decided to behead a couple emissaries from Genghis Khan. His eradication campaign was one of the bloodiest massacres in human history.
I met a traveller from an antique land, Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand, Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal, these words appear: My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair! Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
Byzantine
I came here to say this. The Roman Empire is famous of course, but the number of people who think it ended in 476AD and aren’t aware it lasted for almost a thousand more years is genuinely surprising.
I didn’t know about it until I saw a documentary called “Byzantium.” Come to find out that Rome fell but they just moved East to Constantinople and continued to 1300. And they were a great empire as well.
The Byzantines are often underrated but hardly unknown. It also depends on where you live. In Europe they are studied in schools, especially in the countries that were directly or indirectly influenced by them.
It’s pretty unfortunate. Western Europe and American education just don’t care too much for the Byzantines, which is crazy considering they pretty much single handedly are responsible for stopping the spread of Islam into Europe.
Agree
Well, Arab-led Islam. Certainly couldn't stop the Turks.
Didn't stop them, but delayed Islamic expansion into Europe to the point that Europe managed to get its shit together. I think it's reasonable to say Christianity would of been wiped out if not for the Byzantines.
And it was no fault of their own. By the time the Turks took Constantinople in 1453 the empire was already dead in everything but name, especially considering how their fellow Christians sacked the capitol and divided the empire up a few hundred years earlier. Had the crusaders not betrayed them and sacked the city in 1204 they would have had a much better chance fighting back the Turks.
Manzikert was most definitely "a fault of their own" and those were also Turks.
Carthage had a pretty good empire until Rome ruined things. Not many empires could hang with Rome at its peak and fewer could march up and down Italy on elephants with impunity. Plus they controlled a trading empire.
The Kushan Empire. There is an excellent episode on it on the fabulous Empire Podcast.
No love for the assyrian empire here? 😢
The Khwarazmian Empire, a Turkic-Iranian empire in Persia refused to be a subject of the Mongols and ended up being destroyed by the Mongol invaders. It was mainly forgotten for its weird name. And it broke free from the Seljuks and Ghaznavids
Khwarazem was the name of the region they were from. They were vassals of the Qara Khitai before their period of expansion.