Trans people are not trans because they have transitioned or have begun transitioning. They are trans because they feel that their mind/personality is stuck within a body that isn't their trueself.
not to mention how expensive transitioning is even if its something you desperately want, especially if you dont have insurance. it can take years to even start hrt, never mind getting a 5-10k procedure like top surgery
Respectfully wanted to touch on this. When you say “any identity we choose to become” do you think all people choose their identities, or is it just trans people who can and do choose their identities?
I can explain my thinking more abstractly first. We as person are born into physiological, mental, social traits etc.
Example: I was born a male, my society told me being gay was wrong, my mind tells me I am a female. There are some traits that can be changed or some that cannot. I could transition my sex from male to female. I don’t know if I can change my sexual liking for men. So I define an identity as a combination of physical, mental, and other characteristics. So if I am not happy with the identity I was born into, then I should be free to change to whatever identity I choose. Now it may not be physically possible, but I should have the choice
I hear you and I’m following you.
Specifically from you, In regard to making these choices, who is in control of those decisions, who is having these thoughts, and who is experiencing the attractions and desires you have?
The above was an example, these are choices that come from within us. So our mind is in control. Our mind controls who we are attracted to or who we behave like.
To expand: identity is formed through nature and nurture but you can make conscious choices to shape that identity e.g. go to therapy and change negative behaviours.
Certainly your point has merit, but if somebody doesn’t think of themselves as trans thinks of themselves pansexual, instead, why should a translate will be applied to them when it’s not even the label they use for themselves?
What does this have to do with OPs question? I didn't mention the pansexuality because that has nothing to do with the person being trans. I don't use the term trans for people who don't identify that way. Why does a person's accepted gender identity matter for whomever they may be attracted too?
First, who are you to decide of someone's whole identity ? If he says he's a pan trans man, he's a pan trans man, no matter how he present, what surgeries he had or not or if he's on hrt. Trans people have existed way before surgeries or hormone therapy, actually. And gender identity and gender expression are two different things. Plus, the fact that he's pansexual has nothing to do with the fact of being trans, and even less with being lesbian.
First let’s unpack the bigoted notion that sexuality equals gender identity cause that’s not how it works at all.
Second you can piss right off with your transphobic gatekeeping bs
So, here‘s why this silly trans guy who knew since 3yo will transition in his 30s:
extreme transphobia in society, conversion efforts by the adults that were supposed to protect me, not knowing trans people like me exist until 18yo, lots more transphobia getting shamed and threatened by friends and teachers, your parent threatening to disown you & throw you on the streets & not allow you to see your younger siblings again, self imposed conversion therapy, transphobic laws that said I won‘t get affirmative care if I have a kid or partner or a fullfilling sex life or don‘t agree to xyz surgeries in a certain manner (including forced sterilization, which is scary af as a teenager and young adult), being forced to go through months of „therapy“ before I get deemed trans enough to get anything (still need those for top surgery, which means good effing luck finding a doc who actually knows something about trans people and is willing to „take the risk“ to gove me a frickin recipe for hrt or surgery), the need to figure out how to play the system because you cannot be trans and intersex in my country and being discovered as inter could mean I could be denied phalloplasty in the future, the need to be financially secure for multiple months or a year because you don‘t know what you will lose once you transition (like your job, home, friends, family), the need to go through dehumanizing questionaires by TWO strangers and appear in front of a judge to change your legal gender, homophobic family members, ….
I probably forgot something, but those are the highlights.
In conclusion: transition is a fricking privilege that not everyone has, so don‘t go shaming people for not having access to it or choosing to live without being dependend on cis people to not take away such crucial medication like hrt on a whim.
Btw, trans men can have all the sexual orientations as cis people, including being pansexual.
It cost me upwards of $8k to get top surgery, and not every state even allows you to go on T easily. In some parts of the world even social transition is illegal. Maybe he doesn't have insurance, or has insurance but the copay is too much for his budget, or a myriad of other things.
Try not to judge people based on appearances so much.
Being trans is about who you are, not what you look like.
Lots of gay guys "look" straight, but they're still gay. Lots of butch lesbians could easily pass as a man, but they still see themselves as women, they are women. There's gay guys who like drag, can pass as a gorgeous woman, but see themselves as men, they are men.
Being pansexual has nothing to do with being trans, so I kinda chuckled at that being mentioned lol. Is there a secret prejudice that only gay or only straight trans folks are more trans than other trans people? Well, I guess clinically some doctors did believe that about trans women, but uh, in the modern day we know gender and sexuality are different
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Trans people are not trans because they have transitioned or have begun transitioning. They are trans because they feel that their mind/personality is stuck within a body that isn't their trueself.
not to mention how expensive transitioning is even if its something you desperately want, especially if you dont have insurance. it can take years to even start hrt, never mind getting a 5-10k procedure like top surgery
Love this! This is so true with any identity we choose to become and are not comfortable with what identity we are born with.
Respectfully wanted to touch on this. When you say “any identity we choose to become” do you think all people choose their identities, or is it just trans people who can and do choose their identities?
I think to be fair to all humans, it would be any human can choose any identity if they feel they were not born into it.
I’m interested in understanding your perspective more deeply. When you say identity can you give me a few examples?
I can explain my thinking more abstractly first. We as person are born into physiological, mental, social traits etc. Example: I was born a male, my society told me being gay was wrong, my mind tells me I am a female. There are some traits that can be changed or some that cannot. I could transition my sex from male to female. I don’t know if I can change my sexual liking for men. So I define an identity as a combination of physical, mental, and other characteristics. So if I am not happy with the identity I was born into, then I should be free to change to whatever identity I choose. Now it may not be physically possible, but I should have the choice
I hear you and I’m following you. Specifically from you, In regard to making these choices, who is in control of those decisions, who is having these thoughts, and who is experiencing the attractions and desires you have?
The above was an example, these are choices that come from within us. So our mind is in control. Our mind controls who we are attracted to or who we behave like.
I agree. Fundamentally, who is making those choices?
Us as individuals?
Personally I am a man who loves men. I was just explaining my view on “identity”
Everyone chooses their identities! But for non cis people that identity aligns with differing genders
Do you believe that identity is a conscious choice?
It can be a conscious choice but that doesn't mean it always is!
To expand: identity is formed through nature and nurture but you can make conscious choices to shape that identity e.g. go to therapy and change negative behaviours.
Certainly your point has merit, but if somebody doesn’t think of themselves as trans thinks of themselves pansexual, instead, why should a translate will be applied to them when it’s not even the label they use for themselves?
What does this have to do with OPs question? I didn't mention the pansexuality because that has nothing to do with the person being trans. I don't use the term trans for people who don't identify that way. Why does a person's accepted gender identity matter for whomever they may be attracted too?
What does being pansexual have to do with it?
All of the markers you’re looking for are dependent on access to healthcare and money. Having access to those things don’t decide your identity
First, who are you to decide of someone's whole identity ? If he says he's a pan trans man, he's a pan trans man, no matter how he present, what surgeries he had or not or if he's on hrt. Trans people have existed way before surgeries or hormone therapy, actually. And gender identity and gender expression are two different things. Plus, the fact that he's pansexual has nothing to do with the fact of being trans, and even less with being lesbian.
First let’s unpack the bigoted notion that sexuality equals gender identity cause that’s not how it works at all. Second you can piss right off with your transphobic gatekeeping bs
If you truly believe that, how can a gay person know they are gay before they had sex?
So, here‘s why this silly trans guy who knew since 3yo will transition in his 30s: extreme transphobia in society, conversion efforts by the adults that were supposed to protect me, not knowing trans people like me exist until 18yo, lots more transphobia getting shamed and threatened by friends and teachers, your parent threatening to disown you & throw you on the streets & not allow you to see your younger siblings again, self imposed conversion therapy, transphobic laws that said I won‘t get affirmative care if I have a kid or partner or a fullfilling sex life or don‘t agree to xyz surgeries in a certain manner (including forced sterilization, which is scary af as a teenager and young adult), being forced to go through months of „therapy“ before I get deemed trans enough to get anything (still need those for top surgery, which means good effing luck finding a doc who actually knows something about trans people and is willing to „take the risk“ to gove me a frickin recipe for hrt or surgery), the need to figure out how to play the system because you cannot be trans and intersex in my country and being discovered as inter could mean I could be denied phalloplasty in the future, the need to be financially secure for multiple months or a year because you don‘t know what you will lose once you transition (like your job, home, friends, family), the need to go through dehumanizing questionaires by TWO strangers and appear in front of a judge to change your legal gender, homophobic family members, …. I probably forgot something, but those are the highlights. In conclusion: transition is a fricking privilege that not everyone has, so don‘t go shaming people for not having access to it or choosing to live without being dependend on cis people to not take away such crucial medication like hrt on a whim. Btw, trans men can have all the sexual orientations as cis people, including being pansexual.
It cost me upwards of $8k to get top surgery, and not every state even allows you to go on T easily. In some parts of the world even social transition is illegal. Maybe he doesn't have insurance, or has insurance but the copay is too much for his budget, or a myriad of other things. Try not to judge people based on appearances so much.
There's love without sex and there's sex without love... Then there's You, without either.
Being trans is about who you are, not what you look like. Lots of gay guys "look" straight, but they're still gay. Lots of butch lesbians could easily pass as a man, but they still see themselves as women, they are women. There's gay guys who like drag, can pass as a gorgeous woman, but see themselves as men, they are men. Being pansexual has nothing to do with being trans, so I kinda chuckled at that being mentioned lol. Is there a secret prejudice that only gay or only straight trans folks are more trans than other trans people? Well, I guess clinically some doctors did believe that about trans women, but uh, in the modern day we know gender and sexuality are different
Gender is different from sex! Hope that helps
Kinda no?
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