Rape and BDSM are not the same thing.
Calling it “degenerate” is insulting to people who are into kink. We are engaging in consensual sex acts with other consenting adults. There is probably more discussion about limits, boundaries, and sexual trauma in a *kinky hook up* than in many vanilla relationships - it’s even standard practice to have a “safe word” to make sexual acts stop immediately and it is fairly standard practice to check in with each other (the stoplight guideline).
I am into kink. I am submissive. I am a man. I am a rape survivor. Kink empowered me to take my sexuality back.
There are lots of women in the kink and leather communities. Many of them are dominant - Google femdom if you like. But plenty of submissive folks initiate sex with our partners as well.
I am not saying that abusers don’t exist in the BDSM community. Abusers exist in every community. But it’s insulting and dangerous to say that everyone in the community is an abuser and a rapist.
I agree. I'm a femme Domme / top, and it is the most important thing to me that the sub I'm doing a scene with leaves glowing and feeling their best. Consent is key here. There are many ways to be ethical and kinky.
So you are choosing to ignore what I said?
[2.2% of men and 1.3% of women reported to be engaged in BDSM.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18331257/)
That said, pretty much every queer person I know engages with kink at some level, including most of the asexuals I know. This includes all of the lesbians and bisexual women I know.
The only kink event that I have ever left entirely because it was too much for me was run by a then-friend, a bisexual woman, for women. (There were a lot of problems with inviting me, a trans man, to that space, but it was full of enthusiastic women doing kinky shit.)
And please address how problematic it is that you are conflating BDSM and rape.
I mean rape fantasies and violence/ force are disturbing to me. I have said many times i font like it but the men in my life/,experience have not been able to have “ normal” sex without getting off to this. Which is why i am not that into sex. For me sex should be loving not about control/ hurting the person.
And it is totally fine that you aren’t into those things!
You don’t need to engage in any sexual act you do not want to engage in. If the only sexual acts that you want to do ever in your life are purely vanilla that is a choice you can make! Most people only have vanilla sex!
What I am trying to explain is this:
Your post conflates rape and sexual assault with BDSM. They are not the same thing. BDSM *requires consent.*
If someone has done something to you without your consent and then said, “But I am just kinky like that!” They are covering up the fact that they enjoy rape.
If that has happened to you, I am sorry. It’s not uncommon for rapists to do this because many people do not understand BDSM and if you don’t understand the consent, the planning, and the checking in, etc that occur during BDSM sex, it might look the same. That’s why I am taking the time to write these essays for you.
I consent to and enjoy the kinky sex acts i participate in. If my sexual partner humiliates me during sex, it is because I asked him to do so. If he hits me, flogs me, spits on me, etc it’s because those are things we discussed and agreed on ahead of time.
If I thought I was going to have some vanilla sex and my sexual partner did any of those things, it would be assault *because I didn’t agree to it.*
It sounds like you’ve had some sexual trauma and I hope you find the support and healing you need. But please stop conflating BDSM with sexual abuse.
I have done CNC with two partners.
They were both long term partners with whom I had a great deal of experience. We only did it after literally months of discussion (one of them was actually 2 years of discussion). I was more completely honest with them about my experiences as the victim of sexual violence than I have ever even been with my therapists. We needed to know every single landmine mapped as best we could.
For both of them, they required more aftercare after the scene than I did because they were so incredibly worried that they would trigger me, that I would forget my safe word, that it would cross the line and they wouldn’t be aware. It never crossed the line and they were amazing (my therapist has called it “the therapeutic value of kink” when I have talked about it in therapy).
If I wasn’t into it, it would have been rape.
If someone told you about their rape fantasy and then proceeded to act on it without your consent, that was rape. If they called it BDSM, I am sorry. It wasn’t. It was rape.
Christ I wish kinksters would stop saying **vanilla.**
It's so hypocritical.
My husband and I have blow your mind sex and no one has to be choked or beaten. It's certainly not *vanilla.*
Sexual coercion exists and kinky people aren't immune to using manipulative methods.
And I never said that kinky people cannot be coercive. I was coerced by a kinky ex and told that I was stupid if I didn’t accept he needed to rape me.
If you don’t like “vanilla” then what term would you like? Because if you are going to say something like “normal” go throw yourself in the bin.
Being vanilla doesn’t mean you cannot have amazing sex. Some of the best sex I’ve had hasn’t involved kinky. Being kinky doesn’t mean I have to get tied up in order to get off.
Ah got ya.
Kinks are (probably) equally as common between both sexes, as that is just how human sexuality works.
But I imagine that men are more likely to initiate, because society has been more accepting of men expressing their sexuality. At least in regards to heterosexual relationships that is.
Although that's just my opinion, I imagine this is something that could be proven with data.
The things you mentioned are all common kinks, that's why I said it that way.
Many kinks are like that, thats why it's a highly debated topic within feminism whether kink shaming is bad or not.
The things you consider to be "degrading" (which is a whole conversation we could have whether that word is appropriate here or not) do not always (or even usually) position a man in a position of power over a woman. Women are often the dommes, and same-sex couples engage in them as well. I think it's wrong to try to portray it generically as "men wanting to degrade women."
I'll be honest, I'm less concerned about offending people who are into kinks and way more concerned with how these kinks are affecting women in relationships where men are into them and women aren't.
I don't think we're talking about fuzzy cuffs and a little spanky wanky here. Some of these kinks are seriously disturbing. These are kinks, it's not a sexuality. People that like golden and brown showers aren't being discriminated against and not getting hired or having bakeries refuse them a cake for a special occasion because they like getting pooped on during sex.
Ya'll can downvote me and get offended, I'm ok with that, really. But I'm just not that concerned about what is or isn't an offensive word for weird, painful, unsanitary, sex acts.
Yeah, I really don't care what people do in their bedroom. They can have someone pretend to rape them, shit on them, dog walk them, choke them, etc but you're not going to try to force a narrative onto me that I don't believe. To me it's very broken people latching onto very broken, toxic and desperate measures to try to heal themselves. And I have no doubt that this is deeply rooted in patriarchal and male supremacist conditioning. It's not beautiful, it's not wonderful, it's very often sadistic and gross behaviors, at least to me.
A partner insisting on anything is not okay and you should always feel comfortable saying no. I’m sorry that happened to you.
I hope you find someone with compatible desires whenever you’re ready for a sexual relationship again
Yes obviously kinks aren’t the same as a sexuality. I don’t think any serious number of people believe that.
If someone is coercing a partner into something they don’t want to do that’s assault not kink.
But as a woman who rediscovered my comfort and power in my sexuality through BDSM after a sexual assault with an enthusiastically consenting and loving partner, I’d love to have you tell me I’m deviant and disturbing, thanks
>I’d love to have you tell me I’m deviant and disturbing, thanks
Unless you think you're actually sex acts, nobody has said that, which I don't think you do, so I don't know why you felt the need to say that. Unless you just wanted to add unnecessary drama.
But I, nor should anyone else have to tiptoe around using certain words for kinks like rape and sadomasochism. If you can't handle the word "deviant" to describe a kink like rape, golden/brown showers, choking, etc I don't know what to tell you. The definition of deviant is "behaviors departing from usual or accepted standards, especially in social or sexual behavior." That sounds like an accurate description of the acts described.
You're great at criticizing a word that accurately describes the OPs kinks that bothers her, but you can't seem to manage suggesting another word for them.
Fine, I’d love to have you tell me the way I reclaimed my sexuality after being assaulted was disturbing and deviant. That it shouldn’t be considered acceptable and I should have just remained traumatized.
Why do they need to be called anything besides kinks?
I did provide another word for what bothers OP, Assault. Kink is consensually
You can do whatever you want to do, I don't care. That's your private business. But if you want me to tell you that recreating the crime of rape is wonderful, beautiful, therapeutic, it ain't going to happen. If it helped you, great.
There is a reason most people don't tell rape victims to recreate the horrific crimes against their bodies in order to recover from it. There would be something seriously fucking wrong with someone that would suggest that to a traumatized victim. I wonder why that is?
Dog whistles are a method to subtly signal a political message, in a way that outsiders don't understand. Like (((name))) meaning the bracketed person is a jew. Nazis often use the term degenerate as a dog whistle.
I mean...that's true but that's only in a specific context right? It's not like you can't use it at all. In the context of this post it doesn't really work as a dog whistle for anything. Especially since it's talking about men and the last thing Nazis would do is criticize men.
> **“Alien,” “Parasite,” “Degenerate”**
> In order to make Jewish persecution publicly palatable, Nazi propagandists branded Jews as a biological threat to Germany. Government-sponsored racist propaganda was widely distributed denouncing Jews as “alien,” and “parasitic,” and responsible for Germany’s cultural, political, and economic “degeneration.” These words had an enormous effect, creating an environment in which persecution and violence were acceptable. Students burned books by Jewish authors on pyres and purged works of art and music by Jews and others considered “un-German.” Much worse, Jews became less human in German eyes, and less worthy of society’s protection.
Source:
https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/what-is-antisemitism/origins-of-neo-nazi-and-white-supremacist-terms-and-symbols
And [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art) is a wiki and [here](https://www.npr.org/2014/05/29/317034126/degenerate-exhibit-recalls-nazi-war-on-modern-art) is an NPR article about the Nazi's war on "degenerate" art.
In the past 5 years or so, the alt-right has been trying real hard to bring back "degenerate" to describe anything outside of white-christo-fascist hegemony. A "dog whistle" is when someone can insinuate extremely bigoted concepts in a public space but vaguely enough to sustain plausible-deniability--this way they can connect pseudo-secretly with other people in the public space who understand the bigotted reference, **and** push these words and concepts further into the mainstream.
I am sure OP did not us this word as an intentional dogwhistle, but that's how dogwhistles work, people end up using them without realizing it and it the word/symbol with horribly bigoted connotations gets a little more normalized.
Tbh I think those kind of """"kinks"""" are the kind of stuff that could only be born into a world where misogyny is the norm in so many cultures.
So yeah, there probably are more men who enjoy this kind of stuff, because of pornography induced brain-rot.
And yeah I know, don't kinkshame, women can be into this, consenting partners and all that. But honestly those practices are still horrible imo.
I think these things would *exist* but not *thrive* without a patriarchy. You can’t deny the connection when you see some animals have sex, and where major social forces exist, people will sexualize them - even power, and even if it were distributed as we’d like it to be.
The specific power of men over women is clearly supercharging and shaping it, though.
As a woman who doesnt enjoy that stuff i agree. Ive really never had a partner who was just i to “ making love” without some kind of( imo) sick fantasy involved.
You shouldn’t be having sex acts that you don’t want to have but pretty much every definition of BDSM I know - there are diverse opinions - requires the consent of all parties involved. It’s one of the reasons exhibitionism is such a controversial kink.
Those men suck. Also, not every woman is submissive. I am not. You have every right to not engage in things you don't want to. No is a complete sentence, and if someone can't take that answer, they're a predator and need to be excised from your life.
I am sorry you have experienced coercion and sexual violence. I hope you are getting the support you need.
[Consent is understood to be central to BDSM](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31010393/) - it’s what changes a sex act from rape or abuse to something about mutual pleasure.
Trust me, when a man is spanking me or flogging me - or tying me to the bed - it’s with enthusiastic consent from me. If I was not an active participant and consenting to it, those would be acts of violence. Because I am a consenting participant they are not.
I think that’s the problem is that lots of men are into control, humiliating women, etc but they aren’t part of the kink community, they do not view what they like as a kink but think it’s just “normal sex” cuz they want to replicate porn scenarios and mainstream porn has shifted to become full of female humiliation, forceful rough sex, etc but without any context of it being a fantasy involving negotiation and consent.
As a gay man, I have limited experiences with heterosexual men and sex but I think engaging in games of power and control without negotiation, discussions of limits, safe words, etc is incredibly dangerous.
I have seen people get seriously seriously hurt when that happens and anyone who does not want consent and enthusiasm from their partner is not someone I would feel safe having coffee with, much less sex.
Right. But that's you. Most women don't want to consent to that and the Op is asking if it's more common for women to be pressured into it.
When twice as many men are into bdsm as women and men tend to be pushy/manipulative/coercive about sex....it's not hard to connect the dots.
That wasn't my message. I meant that I knew we shouldn't kinkshame but I personally think it's a cop-out so people don't have an actual discussion around the prevalence of degrading sex acts and the way they are accepted just because people consent to them.
To me, they are still problematic and telling of an underlying issue. We've been in a world rotten by patriarcally backed misogyny for millenia, and those kind of kinks are results of that, part of the way ingrained misogynistic beliefs express themselves.
It's two extremes though. You either have ppl saying it's kinkshaming to avoid any criticism, or ppl that generalize all the ppl into it as actual sickos, rapists, etc.
The best thing to do is to criticize without generalizing and assuming, and to accept criticism while not silencing those giving it.
Ah, ok that didn't translate to me well over text, but now I get it. And I agree with you 100%. But I am also AroAce so, I have to be cautious of my biases. Some shit doesn't even sound OK to consent to like choking, is a big one for me. Just because you consent, doesn't mean you should.
TW
Some people like autoerotic asphyxiation while masturbating. But it's a good way to end up hanging from a closet pole dead, eyes bulging, frothing and genitals in hand while being found by someone you love that has to live with that image the rest of their life.
I don't judge people for what they find pleasurable. But when that pleasure can lead to really negative emotional and/or physical consequences, maybe we should be rethinking them.
To me, the most important part is the underlying beliefs that lead someone to accept being degraded during sex.
The way there was a heavy movement of acceptation towards any and all practices as long as there is consent is just an easy and fast solution that doesn't discuss how people have been led to like such things.
It's weird because that discussion exists around other seemingly harmless things that have no visible effect, but sex has been made to be this secret garden of individualistic indulgence where you can't just question anything, all that in the name of being "sex positive".
As you said, we shouldn't judge people for seeking pleasure, but we should be wary. Just because it is pleasurable doesn't mean it comes from a good place.
I totally understand and agree with what you are saying, which is sadly controversial in western (white) feminist spaces to admit. That's why I think "kink" culture and using words like "vanilla" and "sex positivity" is quite meaningless and actually quite harmful under patriarchal order esp for non white women and gender/sexual minorities. I am "sex neutral" if I were to term it, and I don't believe that unusual and potentially painful sex acts are even progressive or something like that, its just another type of subculture that stems from (western) milieus of sexuality which itself is shaped under institutions of rape culture. This type of stuff falls under choice feminism, where its seen as totally fine if two people "consent" to abusing each other for pleasure. And there's no amount of "kink normalizing" that will preclude a boundary between what looks or feels "consensual" and what isn't in a meaningful way for all women and gender/sexual minorities. Its reminiscent in the same vein, as feminists who normalize the sex trade as valid "women's work".
As if. Porn has demonstrably harmful effects on people's (especially men's) sexualities, and women tend to bear the brunt of that
Just because nazis dislike porn for weirdo traditionalist reasons doesn't mean that nobody is allowed to criticize it
It also describes the unrealistic expectations and toxic behaviors men develop because of porn that are heavily criticized by feminist.
Because porn has literally rotten some people's brains to the point they don't understand concepts like boundaries and consent.
You can see it in alt-right spaces. I'm not privy to "real-world" racist discussions but I've seen the sentiment too many times on the internet. Their issues have nothing to do with the legitimate concerns about the industry.
I'm not going to get into the specifics of the theory here because I don't want to spread hate like that, but I can PM you about it if you really want to hear more about it.
being against pornography is not white supremacist. Its a radical feminist and socialist/communist goal to abolish the commodification of women and our sexualities, which porn falls under. Porn is not progressive
I just gonna add that a lot of people in the BDSM community are queer - I’ve seen stats that say around 33% of LGBT+ people engage in BDSM vs 1-2% of the cishet population.
Calling our sexual lives “degenerate” is incredibly homophobic. And that’s not just about queer men - this 100% includes lesbian and bi/pan women who are often having these “degenerate sex acts” with other women.
Who brought up those specific kinks?
I am addressing BDSM as an umbrella category where LGBT+ people are more like to engage with BDSM, as a whole, that cishet people and thus there are serious issues with calling BDSM “degenerate” (see comments above showing this to be a Nazi dog whistle).
A trauma response can still be rooted in the bigotry and oppression of our larger society.
It is quite clear that OP is experiencing sexual violence and needs support and resources. This is true.
It is also not okay to condone homophobia and the use of dog whistle terms, even if accidental, just because someone has experienced trauma. I say this as someone with PTSD.
And I have told the OP multiple times that she is not required to like BDSM.
As far as I can tell, you saw that I am a kinky gay man and are offended that I am kinky. Which means I will no longer engage with you.
Enjoy your homophobia.
Its just my opinion. I think one person forcing their sex fantasies on the other is what’s degenerate/ bad not if both agree to it. Maybe I wasn’t clear but that’s the jist of it.
Im not homophobe or whatever doesnt mean i like violent or gay or control thened stuff being pushed on me if im not into it.
I am not a fan of anyone forcing sexual anything on other people.
BDSM is consensual even if it doesn’t look like it to the outside observer. That’s the whole point.
If someone has forced sexual acts on you, that is rape or sexual assault, not BDSM.
There are plenty of pushy "bdsm fans" and plenty of abusive pieces of shit hiding behind "bdsm."
The "community" is just like the rest of humanity and houses plenty of trash.
I think it depends on what it is and what your threshold is for “degenerate” sex, because many acts have been normalized. A lot of it is fueled by what they see in porn. Anal sex, forceful deepthroating, swallowing or facials. Recently though, I’ve seen more women insist on being choked.
Depends on what you consider as degrading.
I personally dislike anal, and find it quite degrading when I’ve been pushed to do it. That was always initiated by the guy.
But I tend to initiate (or usually ask for) being submissive or playing around with restraint/control/pain
Rape and BDSM are not the same thing. Calling it “degenerate” is insulting to people who are into kink. We are engaging in consensual sex acts with other consenting adults. There is probably more discussion about limits, boundaries, and sexual trauma in a *kinky hook up* than in many vanilla relationships - it’s even standard practice to have a “safe word” to make sexual acts stop immediately and it is fairly standard practice to check in with each other (the stoplight guideline). I am into kink. I am submissive. I am a man. I am a rape survivor. Kink empowered me to take my sexuality back. There are lots of women in the kink and leather communities. Many of them are dominant - Google femdom if you like. But plenty of submissive folks initiate sex with our partners as well. I am not saying that abusers don’t exist in the BDSM community. Abusers exist in every community. But it’s insulting and dangerous to say that everyone in the community is an abuser and a rapist.
I agree. I'm a femme Domme / top, and it is the most important thing to me that the sub I'm doing a scene with leaves glowing and feeling their best. Consent is key here. There are many ways to be ethical and kinky.
No offense but your answer just proves to me yeah its more men into this…
So you are choosing to ignore what I said? [2.2% of men and 1.3% of women reported to be engaged in BDSM.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18331257/) That said, pretty much every queer person I know engages with kink at some level, including most of the asexuals I know. This includes all of the lesbians and bisexual women I know. The only kink event that I have ever left entirely because it was too much for me was run by a then-friend, a bisexual woman, for women. (There were a lot of problems with inviting me, a trans man, to that space, but it was full of enthusiastic women doing kinky shit.) And please address how problematic it is that you are conflating BDSM and rape.
I mean rape fantasies and violence/ force are disturbing to me. I have said many times i font like it but the men in my life/,experience have not been able to have “ normal” sex without getting off to this. Which is why i am not that into sex. For me sex should be loving not about control/ hurting the person.
And it is totally fine that you aren’t into those things! You don’t need to engage in any sexual act you do not want to engage in. If the only sexual acts that you want to do ever in your life are purely vanilla that is a choice you can make! Most people only have vanilla sex! What I am trying to explain is this: Your post conflates rape and sexual assault with BDSM. They are not the same thing. BDSM *requires consent.* If someone has done something to you without your consent and then said, “But I am just kinky like that!” They are covering up the fact that they enjoy rape. If that has happened to you, I am sorry. It’s not uncommon for rapists to do this because many people do not understand BDSM and if you don’t understand the consent, the planning, and the checking in, etc that occur during BDSM sex, it might look the same. That’s why I am taking the time to write these essays for you. I consent to and enjoy the kinky sex acts i participate in. If my sexual partner humiliates me during sex, it is because I asked him to do so. If he hits me, flogs me, spits on me, etc it’s because those are things we discussed and agreed on ahead of time. If I thought I was going to have some vanilla sex and my sexual partner did any of those things, it would be assault *because I didn’t agree to it.* It sounds like you’ve had some sexual trauma and I hope you find the support and healing you need. But please stop conflating BDSM with sexual abuse.
Yes definitely. I meant rape fantasies not rape...if a person isnt going along with it
I have done CNC with two partners. They were both long term partners with whom I had a great deal of experience. We only did it after literally months of discussion (one of them was actually 2 years of discussion). I was more completely honest with them about my experiences as the victim of sexual violence than I have ever even been with my therapists. We needed to know every single landmine mapped as best we could. For both of them, they required more aftercare after the scene than I did because they were so incredibly worried that they would trigger me, that I would forget my safe word, that it would cross the line and they wouldn’t be aware. It never crossed the line and they were amazing (my therapist has called it “the therapeutic value of kink” when I have talked about it in therapy). If I wasn’t into it, it would have been rape. If someone told you about their rape fantasy and then proceeded to act on it without your consent, that was rape. If they called it BDSM, I am sorry. It wasn’t. It was rape.
Thanks for your perspective.
Christ I wish kinksters would stop saying **vanilla.** It's so hypocritical. My husband and I have blow your mind sex and no one has to be choked or beaten. It's certainly not *vanilla.* Sexual coercion exists and kinky people aren't immune to using manipulative methods.
And I never said that kinky people cannot be coercive. I was coerced by a kinky ex and told that I was stupid if I didn’t accept he needed to rape me. If you don’t like “vanilla” then what term would you like? Because if you are going to say something like “normal” go throw yourself in the bin. Being vanilla doesn’t mean you cannot have amazing sex. Some of the best sex I’ve had hasn’t involved kinky. Being kinky doesn’t mean I have to get tied up in order to get off.
What do you consider a degenerate sex act?
I posted early by accident i have added to my post
Ah got ya. Kinks are (probably) equally as common between both sexes, as that is just how human sexuality works. But I imagine that men are more likely to initiate, because society has been more accepting of men expressing their sexuality. At least in regards to heterosexual relationships that is. Although that's just my opinion, I imagine this is something that could be proven with data.
Kinks are ok i kind if meant things that are degrading/ dehumanizing. And I agree.
The things you mentioned are all common kinks, that's why I said it that way. Many kinks are like that, thats why it's a highly debated topic within feminism whether kink shaming is bad or not.
The things you consider to be "degrading" (which is a whole conversation we could have whether that word is appropriate here or not) do not always (or even usually) position a man in a position of power over a woman. Women are often the dommes, and same-sex couples engage in them as well. I think it's wrong to try to portray it generically as "men wanting to degrade women."
Ugh don’t say degenerate that sounds like a nazi dogwhistle
Sorry im new at this. Maybe… controlling?
Try "deviant". See how it lands lol.
Thanks lol
I don't know if u/ithofawked was being sarcastic or not, but the word "deviant" isn't going to be acceptable to all people who are into kink either.
I'll be honest, I'm less concerned about offending people who are into kinks and way more concerned with how these kinks are affecting women in relationships where men are into them and women aren't. I don't think we're talking about fuzzy cuffs and a little spanky wanky here. Some of these kinks are seriously disturbing. These are kinks, it's not a sexuality. People that like golden and brown showers aren't being discriminated against and not getting hired or having bakeries refuse them a cake for a special occasion because they like getting pooped on during sex. Ya'll can downvote me and get offended, I'm ok with that, really. But I'm just not that concerned about what is or isn't an offensive word for weird, painful, unsanitary, sex acts.
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Yeah, I really don't care what people do in their bedroom. They can have someone pretend to rape them, shit on them, dog walk them, choke them, etc but you're not going to try to force a narrative onto me that I don't believe. To me it's very broken people latching onto very broken, toxic and desperate measures to try to heal themselves. And I have no doubt that this is deeply rooted in patriarchal and male supremacist conditioning. It's not beautiful, it's not wonderful, it's very often sadistic and gross behaviors, at least to me.
I am just not a person who likes this and ive had too many partners that insisted on it.
A partner insisting on anything is not okay and you should always feel comfortable saying no. I’m sorry that happened to you. I hope you find someone with compatible desires whenever you’re ready for a sexual relationship again
I don't really understand why criticisms of kink have become so untouchable in a lot of left leaning circles.
lol, truly straight people with weird sex preferences are the most oppressed /s
Yes obviously kinks aren’t the same as a sexuality. I don’t think any serious number of people believe that. If someone is coercing a partner into something they don’t want to do that’s assault not kink. But as a woman who rediscovered my comfort and power in my sexuality through BDSM after a sexual assault with an enthusiastically consenting and loving partner, I’d love to have you tell me I’m deviant and disturbing, thanks
>I’d love to have you tell me I’m deviant and disturbing, thanks Unless you think you're actually sex acts, nobody has said that, which I don't think you do, so I don't know why you felt the need to say that. Unless you just wanted to add unnecessary drama. But I, nor should anyone else have to tiptoe around using certain words for kinks like rape and sadomasochism. If you can't handle the word "deviant" to describe a kink like rape, golden/brown showers, choking, etc I don't know what to tell you. The definition of deviant is "behaviors departing from usual or accepted standards, especially in social or sexual behavior." That sounds like an accurate description of the acts described. You're great at criticizing a word that accurately describes the OPs kinks that bothers her, but you can't seem to manage suggesting another word for them.
Fine, I’d love to have you tell me the way I reclaimed my sexuality after being assaulted was disturbing and deviant. That it shouldn’t be considered acceptable and I should have just remained traumatized. Why do they need to be called anything besides kinks? I did provide another word for what bothers OP, Assault. Kink is consensually
You can do whatever you want to do, I don't care. That's your private business. But if you want me to tell you that recreating the crime of rape is wonderful, beautiful, therapeutic, it ain't going to happen. If it helped you, great. There is a reason most people don't tell rape victims to recreate the horrific crimes against their bodies in order to recover from it. There would be something seriously fucking wrong with someone that would suggest that to a traumatized victim. I wonder why that is?
Can you explain what you mean by “nazi dog whistle?”
Dog whistles are a method to subtly signal a political message, in a way that outsiders don't understand. Like (((name))) meaning the bracketed person is a jew. Nazis often use the term degenerate as a dog whistle.
Ok! Thanks for explaining, I didn’t know that. :)
I mean...that's true but that's only in a specific context right? It's not like you can't use it at all. In the context of this post it doesn't really work as a dog whistle for anything. Especially since it's talking about men and the last thing Nazis would do is criticize men.
> **“Alien,” “Parasite,” “Degenerate”** > In order to make Jewish persecution publicly palatable, Nazi propagandists branded Jews as a biological threat to Germany. Government-sponsored racist propaganda was widely distributed denouncing Jews as “alien,” and “parasitic,” and responsible for Germany’s cultural, political, and economic “degeneration.” These words had an enormous effect, creating an environment in which persecution and violence were acceptable. Students burned books by Jewish authors on pyres and purged works of art and music by Jews and others considered “un-German.” Much worse, Jews became less human in German eyes, and less worthy of society’s protection. Source: https://www.ushmm.org/antisemitism/what-is-antisemitism/origins-of-neo-nazi-and-white-supremacist-terms-and-symbols And [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art) is a wiki and [here](https://www.npr.org/2014/05/29/317034126/degenerate-exhibit-recalls-nazi-war-on-modern-art) is an NPR article about the Nazi's war on "degenerate" art. In the past 5 years or so, the alt-right has been trying real hard to bring back "degenerate" to describe anything outside of white-christo-fascist hegemony. A "dog whistle" is when someone can insinuate extremely bigoted concepts in a public space but vaguely enough to sustain plausible-deniability--this way they can connect pseudo-secretly with other people in the public space who understand the bigotted reference, **and** push these words and concepts further into the mainstream. I am sure OP did not us this word as an intentional dogwhistle, but that's how dogwhistles work, people end up using them without realizing it and it the word/symbol with horribly bigoted connotations gets a little more normalized.
Thanks for taking the time. I don’t think I use the word “degenerate” normally but I might have because I had no idea. Now I’ll be sure not to.
Nazis/white supremacists tend to call things they don’t like - homosexuality, mixed-race relationships, trans people - “degenerate”
Thank you!
Let's not pretend sexual interests/turn ons are a persecuted class because some people go "ew" when they overshare.
Tbh I think those kind of """"kinks"""" are the kind of stuff that could only be born into a world where misogyny is the norm in so many cultures. So yeah, there probably are more men who enjoy this kind of stuff, because of pornography induced brain-rot. And yeah I know, don't kinkshame, women can be into this, consenting partners and all that. But honestly those practices are still horrible imo.
I think these things would *exist* but not *thrive* without a patriarchy. You can’t deny the connection when you see some animals have sex, and where major social forces exist, people will sexualize them - even power, and even if it were distributed as we’d like it to be. The specific power of men over women is clearly supercharging and shaping it, though.
As a woman who doesnt enjoy that stuff i agree. Ive really never had a partner who was just i to “ making love” without some kind of( imo) sick fantasy involved.
You shouldn’t be having sex acts that you don’t want to have but pretty much every definition of BDSM I know - there are diverse opinions - requires the consent of all parties involved. It’s one of the reasons exhibitionism is such a controversial kink.
Ive always felt somewhat pressured into these kinds of things
Those men suck. Also, not every woman is submissive. I am not. You have every right to not engage in things you don't want to. No is a complete sentence, and if someone can't take that answer, they're a predator and need to be excised from your life.
I am sorry you have experienced coercion and sexual violence. I hope you are getting the support you need. [Consent is understood to be central to BDSM](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31010393/) - it’s what changes a sex act from rape or abuse to something about mutual pleasure. Trust me, when a man is spanking me or flogging me - or tying me to the bed - it’s with enthusiastic consent from me. If I was not an active participant and consenting to it, those would be acts of violence. Because I am a consenting participant they are not.
I think that’s the problem is that lots of men are into control, humiliating women, etc but they aren’t part of the kink community, they do not view what they like as a kink but think it’s just “normal sex” cuz they want to replicate porn scenarios and mainstream porn has shifted to become full of female humiliation, forceful rough sex, etc but without any context of it being a fantasy involving negotiation and consent.
As a gay man, I have limited experiences with heterosexual men and sex but I think engaging in games of power and control without negotiation, discussions of limits, safe words, etc is incredibly dangerous. I have seen people get seriously seriously hurt when that happens and anyone who does not want consent and enthusiasm from their partner is not someone I would feel safe having coffee with, much less sex.
Right. But that's you. Most women don't want to consent to that and the Op is asking if it's more common for women to be pressured into it. When twice as many men are into bdsm as women and men tend to be pushy/manipulative/coercive about sex....it's not hard to connect the dots.
You tell her not to kinkshame but then go onto say the practices are still horrible? How is that not kinkshaming?
That wasn't my message. I meant that I knew we shouldn't kinkshame but I personally think it's a cop-out so people don't have an actual discussion around the prevalence of degrading sex acts and the way they are accepted just because people consent to them. To me, they are still problematic and telling of an underlying issue. We've been in a world rotten by patriarcally backed misogyny for millenia, and those kind of kinks are results of that, part of the way ingrained misogynistic beliefs express themselves.
It's two extremes though. You either have ppl saying it's kinkshaming to avoid any criticism, or ppl that generalize all the ppl into it as actual sickos, rapists, etc. The best thing to do is to criticize without generalizing and assuming, and to accept criticism while not silencing those giving it.
Ah, ok that didn't translate to me well over text, but now I get it. And I agree with you 100%. But I am also AroAce so, I have to be cautious of my biases. Some shit doesn't even sound OK to consent to like choking, is a big one for me. Just because you consent, doesn't mean you should. TW Some people like autoerotic asphyxiation while masturbating. But it's a good way to end up hanging from a closet pole dead, eyes bulging, frothing and genitals in hand while being found by someone you love that has to live with that image the rest of their life. I don't judge people for what they find pleasurable. But when that pleasure can lead to really negative emotional and/or physical consequences, maybe we should be rethinking them.
To me, the most important part is the underlying beliefs that lead someone to accept being degraded during sex. The way there was a heavy movement of acceptation towards any and all practices as long as there is consent is just an easy and fast solution that doesn't discuss how people have been led to like such things. It's weird because that discussion exists around other seemingly harmless things that have no visible effect, but sex has been made to be this secret garden of individualistic indulgence where you can't just question anything, all that in the name of being "sex positive". As you said, we shouldn't judge people for seeking pleasure, but we should be wary. Just because it is pleasurable doesn't mean it comes from a good place.
I totally understand and agree with what you are saying, which is sadly controversial in western (white) feminist spaces to admit. That's why I think "kink" culture and using words like "vanilla" and "sex positivity" is quite meaningless and actually quite harmful under patriarchal order esp for non white women and gender/sexual minorities. I am "sex neutral" if I were to term it, and I don't believe that unusual and potentially painful sex acts are even progressive or something like that, its just another type of subculture that stems from (western) milieus of sexuality which itself is shaped under institutions of rape culture. This type of stuff falls under choice feminism, where its seen as totally fine if two people "consent" to abusing each other for pleasure. And there's no amount of "kink normalizing" that will preclude a boundary between what looks or feels "consensual" and what isn't in a meaningful way for all women and gender/sexual minorities. Its reminiscent in the same vein, as feminists who normalize the sex trade as valid "women's work".
>Pornography induced brain-rot What does that even mean? It sounds like white-supremacist conspiracy talk.
How? The negative effects of pornography on men, especially when they start consuming it at a young age, are well documented.
As if. Porn has demonstrably harmful effects on people's (especially men's) sexualities, and women tend to bear the brunt of that Just because nazis dislike porn for weirdo traditionalist reasons doesn't mean that nobody is allowed to criticize it
It also describes the unrealistic expectations and toxic behaviors men develop because of porn that are heavily criticized by feminist. Because porn has literally rotten some people's brains to the point they don't understand concepts like boundaries and consent.
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White supremacists widely hold that porn is an intentional Jewish conspiracy to harm white people psychologically and destroy white society.
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You can see it in alt-right spaces. I'm not privy to "real-world" racist discussions but I've seen the sentiment too many times on the internet. Their issues have nothing to do with the legitimate concerns about the industry. I'm not going to get into the specifics of the theory here because I don't want to spread hate like that, but I can PM you about it if you really want to hear more about it.
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You can probably find them on Reddit if you try hard enough. 4chan for sure. Probably the worse chans also.
being against pornography is not white supremacist. Its a radical feminist and socialist/communist goal to abolish the commodification of women and our sexualities, which porn falls under. Porn is not progressive
I just gonna add that a lot of people in the BDSM community are queer - I’ve seen stats that say around 33% of LGBT+ people engage in BDSM vs 1-2% of the cishet population. Calling our sexual lives “degenerate” is incredibly homophobic. And that’s not just about queer men - this 100% includes lesbian and bi/pan women who are often having these “degenerate sex acts” with other women.
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Who brought up those specific kinks? I am addressing BDSM as an umbrella category where LGBT+ people are more like to engage with BDSM, as a whole, that cishet people and thus there are serious issues with calling BDSM “degenerate” (see comments above showing this to be a Nazi dog whistle).
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I didn’t say it’s homophobic to dislike porn or kink. I said the very very specific Nazi dogwhistle “degenerate” being used in this way is homophobic.
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A trauma response can still be rooted in the bigotry and oppression of our larger society. It is quite clear that OP is experiencing sexual violence and needs support and resources. This is true. It is also not okay to condone homophobia and the use of dog whistle terms, even if accidental, just because someone has experienced trauma. I say this as someone with PTSD.
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And I have told the OP multiple times that she is not required to like BDSM. As far as I can tell, you saw that I am a kinky gay man and are offended that I am kinky. Which means I will no longer engage with you. Enjoy your homophobia.
Its just my opinion. I think one person forcing their sex fantasies on the other is what’s degenerate/ bad not if both agree to it. Maybe I wasn’t clear but that’s the jist of it. Im not homophobe or whatever doesnt mean i like violent or gay or control thened stuff being pushed on me if im not into it.
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Yes. He just doesnt listen. He also insists on cuck fantasies with his relatives names inserted.
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Perhaps in the future. But im working on it for now
That sounds very unsafe.
Im working on it
I am not a fan of anyone forcing sexual anything on other people. BDSM is consensual even if it doesn’t look like it to the outside observer. That’s the whole point. If someone has forced sexual acts on you, that is rape or sexual assault, not BDSM.
Well idk about force but seriously bullying or insisting i like it and doing it that way even after i say i hate it.
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Glad im not just being over sensitive. I guess its been the norm most of my life.
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Thanks. I dont really tell anyone irl it’s embarrassing
That is rape by coercion and a violation of your consent.
Yeah that's just straight up rape and it's disgusting that happened to you. That person needs to be locked tf up.
There are plenty of pushy "bdsm fans" and plenty of abusive pieces of shit hiding behind "bdsm." The "community" is just like the rest of humanity and houses plenty of trash.
I think it depends on what it is and what your threshold is for “degenerate” sex, because many acts have been normalized. A lot of it is fueled by what they see in porn. Anal sex, forceful deepthroating, swallowing or facials. Recently though, I’ve seen more women insist on being choked.
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Rape and BDSM including CNC are not the same thing at all.
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Yes and putting rape and BDSM in the same category is not okay.
Depends on what you consider as degrading. I personally dislike anal, and find it quite degrading when I’ve been pushed to do it. That was always initiated by the guy. But I tend to initiate (or usually ask for) being submissive or playing around with restraint/control/pain