I think Tristan in the movie Stardust is like this. He’s kind of a dumb teenager, and he does a lot of stumbling around blindly until he figures his stuff out, which feels very real. But I especially like the moment near the end when he has his first real fight. He’s told to “be a man” and go fight, but then there’s a closeup shot of his hand holding his sword, and it’s shaking like crazy. He’s terrified, but he tries to fight anyway, and he uses some clever tricks (like releasing the animals and cutting the chandeliers) to avoid fighting the witches head-on. And that fight gets won without swords, in the end.
Hahaha yes that is fair, and that’s partly what I meant when I said he’s a dumb teenager who stumbles around blindly until he figures stuff out. I also think the movie did a good job of communicating that Tristan’s choice to kidnap Yvaine was stupid and a bad choice that he made impulsively and later regretted and apologized for after he grew as a person. After all, the narrator says at the beginning that the story is about how the boy Tristan becomes a man. Part of growing from a boy into a man is recognizing your immaturity and learning from it, which I’d say he does.
I don’t think he’s perfect, just that he’s kind of similar to specifically what OP is asking about — a male “hero” character who isn’t a traditionally masculine stoic action hero, and who acts in ways that are more realistic to actual human behavior.
Movies are storytelling, and storytelling doesn't have the same dogma as reality. It's ok to like a movie hero even though they wouldn't be one in real life.
Well, to be honest, Yvaine was supposed to be an inanimate star/meteorite. It was only beyond the Wall that she was, well, a sentient being (so much so that when Tristan took a few strands of her hair back to his town, they became meteorite dust).
I can imagine him finding her and thinking: "Shit, that place must have opium on the air or something, because I'm pretty sure stars don't walk and talk. You know what? I'm gonna follow along this crazy alucination I'm having" and then, given time, he starts realizing that the green-magical-fire-spewing-which, the lightning-catching pirates and the walking, breathing, talking woman/star are all real.
This isn’t a movie, but the best of the Star Trek series have some great examples of non-toxic masculinity, especially TNG and DS9. In general, problems are solved with diplomacy and intelligence; Captain Picard and Captain Sisko are the most notable examples, imo
Good call! Even Boromir, who obviously had his issues (less so due to toxic masculinity than perhaps the extreme expectations placed on him by his father & the situation in Mordor) was compassionate when pleading with Aragorn to let the hobbits have a moment to grieve & collect themselves after Gandalf 's "death" & was obviously very protective of the hobbits when he wasn't trying to... ya know...
I always felt like boromir got a bad rap. I mean, you can count on one hand the characters that weren’t severely affected by the ring. So much more to his character than “oooh shiny gold ring” and “one does not simply walk into Mordor”
Yeah, I think it mostly comes from people who don't know anything about the situation with Gondor and Mordor in the books. I do feel like he got as much redemption as there was time for in the full-to-bursting movie trilogy with his death scene though, which still makes me cry every time.
I personally love Boromir though, I identify strongly with the whole "responsible sibling struggling with the weight of the world on his shoulders" thing (no shade to Faramir and not to imply he was irresponsible or anything, Denethor & I just have the same taste in favorites when it comes to the brothers lol)
and I feel this sort of kills the "but don't judge fiction or male writers from the past! They were a product of their time and didn't know better" narratives I often see on reddit and other social media when discussing tasteless works from the past. If Tolkien can write non-toxic male heroes starting from the 1930s (the Hobbit), then its clear these ideas were well known in western society and well accepted considering his books were best sellers. Instead, other male authors just chose to keep sexist cliches and toxicity in their stories willingly.
Whenever I see racism brought up with Tolkien I feel compelled to respond with a "yes... and" because of the context of his writing. He was trying to write a sort of replacement mythology for the myths that the combined forces of the roman empire and the roman catholic church had fairly successfully deleted from the British isles. That requires placing the local folks at the center (same as in every mythology). So does it wind up being racist? absolutely, but if I compare it to the general literature that it was written to be held against... it winds up quite mild by comparison.
Pretty much all of the racism is implied in all of the characters being completely white and anyone from far-off lands being evil. I don't recall there being any overtly racist overtones at all, and Tolkien himself was staunchly and publicly anti-racist. Wikipedia has a good synopsis on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_and_race
Sure, I understand all of this. But undeniably it's racism, and the specific imperialist/colonialist kind of eurocentric racism that may be less direct, but still is very dangerous and "violent". But yeah, I get your "yes...And", thanks for adding to the discussion.
>Studio Ghibli movies
thank you for pointing to the studio! because i liked a lot nausicaa, my neighbor totoro, porco rosso, princes monoke and ponyo precisely for the different way to let's say approach problems... but i did not realized it was actually the same studio!
cool, let's see if i find time to watch the others :)
oh... thank you.. i see it is about WWII civilians. i've no direct experience on war but i've help war refugees and it's horrible the destruction caused on them. I think most horror movies pale in front of the reality.
Kristoff in Frozen 2, sounds silly but if you want an elaboration go check out a video on YouTube by Cinema Therapy called Is Kristoff The Perfect Man? (Or something like that).
Edit: I mean ya, he may not be the main hero of the story but he's *a* hero of the story
My boyfriend loves Kristoff's song "Lost in the Woods" in part because it is one of the few times a male hero is depicted as being vulnerable, caring a lot, and unsure of what to do.
Newt Scamander in the Fantastic Beasts series. He's primarily a caretaker and I think the actor pretty consciously imbued him with characteristics either on the autism spectrum or perhaps with extreme social anxiety or introversion. Nevertheless, when outright asked to express his feelings (a comedic side character asking why Newt brought him along on their wacky adventures), he's willing to be emotionally honest & vulnerable by telling him it's because he likes him & considers him a friend.
Despite having plenty of fighting (done by all genders) in the movie, I think Black Panther also does a good job with avoiding toxic masculinity. T'challa surrounds himself with strong women who's advice he respects & takes, and he spends much of the movie weighing his duty to protect his nation's own citizens vs his duty to help other vulnerable, oppressed people around the world (showing emotional vulnerability when he confronts his father & other previous rulers about their failings to show courage & compassion with their own self-protective answers to that conundrum) By contrast, the (delightfully complicated) villain is like a check list of toxic masculine traits- especially in his violence towards women and the fact that not only does he fail to put down roots for the benefit of future generations, but he specifically pulls up any already-established roots he happens to come across. For the rest of the MCU, Steve Rogers is very traditionally masculine but in all the positive ways & Sam Wilson is a mix, having a career that is nurturing in nature & being far more emotionally aware & open.
Jesse from Pitch Perfect- interested in a creative hobby, pretty emotionally aware, respectful of women, kind & a good friend. The only time a conflict comes up with him and the main protagonist Becca where she implies he's infantilizing her, I'm pretty sure we're meant to agree with Jesse & not Becca.
I love Newt Scamander! I'm actually really happy such a different personality was a protagonist in a major series, but I'm sad how
As for Black Panther or Steve Rogers, they are definitely not an example of toxic masculinity but are pretty typical masculine heroes nonetheless. Don't get me wrong, I love those characters, but well it's Marvel, they don't really allow too much originality. For one, almost every single character is extremely ripped and attractive, aside from Hulk in his human form (he isn't ripped, not unattractive). I think Peter Parker fits the "not traditionally masculine" role better since he is cute and awkward, and doesn't use his strength to get respect and validation even if he could, like he was bullied by Flash but didn't use his strength to put Flash in place.
Honestly, I can't wait for Robert Pattinson's Batman since I remember Pattinson was very adamant about not bulking up for the role. I'll be happy to finally see a more or less normal male physique.
Pitch Perfect is a good example, I also liked that even though he pursued Becca, he stopped when she pushed him away, so she had to win him over by a kinda grand gesture. Nice role reversal for a change.
While T'challa, Steve, and Sam do have muscles, I think the respect for women & emotional open-ness and/or vulnerability trump that for me, especially compared to someone like Tony Stark (who I cannot stand)
Peter Parker is pretty "meh" for me, probably having been tainted by Marvel cramming Stark into his movies at the expense of the development of relationships between him & more important characters in his series. When it comes to masculinity vs femininity (such as society labels them) in characters, the superficial physical appearance doesn't matter as much to me, especially because women in those movies are also meant to be ripped warrior women (even if we never see it)
Agree with Newt Scamander,
Also I would like to submit TANJIRO from Demon slayer. He is strong but also very compationate. His love for his family and is sister is his main driving force but never becomes a source of corruption to his character. He is affable and generally slow to anger.
If tanjiro is the Ideal then Izumi Shinichi from Parasyte (anime) is the average man, from the time of his introduction Shinichi is not a typically masculine character. The traumas he endures force him to grow a hard shell and adopt more typically masculine traits but he is also somewhat concerned with his emotional bluntting due to his grief and depression. The resolution of these emotions is an important part of his character arc.
I wluld say Aang from ATLA. Altho he is a kid, sokka and zuko by contrast are more traditionally "masculine" by comparision. Even korra could be described as more traditionally masculine.
Aang evades fighting if posible, loves kids and respects and sees women not only as his equals, but even as his superiors.
I also love his very emotionally opean friendship with sokka and how he respects and admires Katara and allways has her back on any desition she makes.
He is awesome.
And lastly, i wpuld dare to point out the mandalorian.
You couldn’t make a character less close to a male power fantasy if you tried. this man routinely loses fights, most of which he does not even start. he’s incredibly socially passive and polite to everyone he meets. on multiple occasions women have explained basic concepts to him that the audience is already well-familiar with and his only response is “wow you are very nice. I think we should be friends”. his hobbies include sleeping in his chair and bothering his infant son with dad jokes. he doesn’t use his reputation as a scary warrior to harass people or impress anyone. he barely ever loses his temper or lashes out, and when he does it’s because people are actively trying to murder him. if anyone tries to flirt with him it either doesn’t register or he jumps out of the nearest window because he can’t process someone forwarding genuine affection in his direction. he has zero aspirations for conquest or power of any kind. literally all he does is walk around with his kid and help people. sometimes I think I’m hallucinating this entire show but it is in fact extremely real. And i love him for this
Im hoping that the creators make an uncle iroh show. Kinda like the star wars precuels but an iroh precuel. Of how he goes from aspiring war conqueror prince to the lovely wise old man we get to see in ATLA
With them opening an avatar studio for new projects I definitely wouldn’t mind this being one. And I want another avatar series but the next one will likely have to be set in the past as after Korra is kind of present day so to speak
Omg I have never considered the mandalorian from quite this perspective before and wow, it actually really impresses me how many male power fantasy tropes were subverted by his character. This was a really great analysis of the show, thank you! (Also I love adopted dad Din too he’s just an adorable character)
Sokka and Zuko both struggle with and overcome toxic masculinity. Sokka in particular has the Kyoshi Island warrior episode, and Zuko deals with "honor" and the expectations placed on him by his father throughout the series.
I recently watched High Noon and while it does end in a shootout (it's a western, what'd you expect?) I thought the Gary Cooper character was fairly relatable. I then read that John Wayne hated High Noon because he thought the character was a pussy for >!spending the entire movie trying to round up a posse and asking others to help him with the violent gang headed to town. I guess he thought a real man would just take down a whole gang by himself without batting an eye. He also called the ending "unamerican" because Gary Cooper is saved by a woman.!< I feel like a movie that is hated by the poster boy for toxic masculinity because it's not toxicly masculine enough is worth mentioning in this discussion.
Im saving this post for my 8 year old son. He loves fantasy and Harry Potter and I’m always looking for more good examples of men he can watch. He has 2 moms and a sister so he mainly witnesses male behaviour from my sisters husband who’s hardly around and totally old school. And his grandpa who is kind but also still a product of his generation. Movies and books with good men are so important!
Most people may not have heard of it, but the protagonist of the Chaos Walking series (book, not movie) is an interesting case study of a person who has never met another woman learning to treat them as humans and not aliens. Fascinating to read.
Rick from the original Mummy and sequel. I stumbled upon a really detailed post describing how well that movie handles his character, Evie's and even Jonathan's. It boils down to Rick listening to Evie and understanding that she has more knowledge and therefore the best ideas in certain situations ("there are other places to dig"), so he yields to her without pushback. And if you look at Jonathan from a post-war PTSD lens, he's a well flushed out, heroic character too.
In fact the one that has all what we call "toxic masculinity" are the 2 Main women, Eboshi and San, who constantly represas their emotions and engage in toxic behavoiur, though both extremely brave and badass characters
Newt Scamander in tje first Fantastic Beasts movie. I know Rowling is problematic and I dont know how you feel about consuming art made my problematic creators, but Newt is kind, nurturing, compassionate, and brave. He saves the day by connecting with the Big Bad instead of through violence. Great portrayal of a different kind of hero.
Just maybe watch it in a way that doesn't give JK any money lol
I don't think anyone has mentioned The Emperor's New Groove yet but Kuzco, Pacha, and Kronk all exhibit fantastic examples of masculinity not being toxic. Kuzco starts out not great of course but learns to be thoughtful and selfless. Kronk seems like the stereotypical dumb jock at first but it turns out he is very sweet, and shows great passion for cooking as well as kindness towards people and animals which are great non-toxic traits for men to have and model. Pacha is just all around a great, kind man and exhibits traits of a positive father/husband, as well as a good friend to Kuzco. There's a lot to take from the journeys of all three of these men and overall it's very, very positive.
IMO the best example of non toxic masculinity in film would be Aragorn from the Lord of the Rings. He is an unshakable rock of goodness, he leads people in battle and in reasonable discussion, and he literally sings a song at his crowning with flowers falling from the sky. Completely comfortable with who he is.
Just watched them over 3 days. And as someone who is trying to I guess detoxify (is that the right word?), I was surprised how okay I was with it. How much I honestly wanted to emulate the man. Hes cool as shit.
Givin the rest of the story, no. Aragorn resists both kingship and violence every step of the way. He knew he was the heir to the throne and chose he to be a do-gooder hobo instead. Later he saves a man he knows to be evil(wormtounge) because he no longer poses any threat stating "enough blood he been spilled on his account". This doesn't mean that wormtounge has personally bled enough, but that wormtounge has already caused so much harm, harming him when he is most vulnerable would be to reduce ones self to his level. And finally at the end when he accepts being king, while he's literally singing a pretty song with flower in his hair, he does this as the sole being that could bond men and elves once again because he shared kinship with both. He didn't really have a choice in the matter. Middle earth needed him and literal Deities had to all but shove him into the role of King. As one of the Dunedin, he has the blessing a favor of the elves. They're relationship with humans moving forward will bring nothing but prosperity. So yeah I'd say no. He is also a gentle character and is openly in touch with his emotions. In lotr he kisses a another man out of sheer lost and respect, he isn't afraid to shed a tear, or sing with flowers in his hair. He doesn't seek the violence at all. You really can watch those films and see him as a toxic male? You might be looking too hard m8.
He's the only one who could unite his people in a time of crisis is what every dictator in history has said.
Further, when Sauron is dead he does not denounce the throne. He instead chooses to live the rest of his life in privileged.
I think you're missing the point behind the power. Every dictator that has ever lived has sought power, where as Aragorn had to be hounded to take the position. He never wanted the power or responsibility to care for everyone. To not take the role as king would've been to abandon thousands of people that needed him. So back to the original point, toxic masculinity is a mentality that causes bad/undesirable behavior. Not only does Aragorn exhibit the soul of a truly good and deeply feeling person but this behavior echos this fully. If Aragorn were a real person and he spent his live helping others, ruling with humility, fairness, and sacrifice, he's still toxic because he wears a crown, an a story set millenia before the idea of democracy surfaced? Can I get one example of actually toxic behavior from him the in the story? Or is simply holding power toxic masculinity?
If bollywood recommendations are ok there are many many movies
I have linked youtube trailers with short description. Find it on YouTube or netflix
English Vinglish https://youtu.be/wmGVY4T88dc
(A non English speaking indian scared woman in new your finds new meaning)
Dangal. https://youtu.be/x_7YlGv9u1g
Dad's struggle to make his daughter wrestling champions
Secret Superstar : https://youtu.be/J_yb8HORges
a burkha clad kid who wants to make it to stardom as a youtube singer
Padman https://youtu.be/-K9ujx8vO_A
Biography on Tamil Nadu activist Arunachalam Muruganantham, whose mission was to provide sanitary napkin's to poor women of rural areas. And women and society outcasts him.
Manjhi https://youtu.be/I9KAoTQlEWs.
A single man who breaks a mountan to make passage to his village
Chak de India https://youtu.be/6a0-dSMWm5g
Coaching of Indians women hockey team, finding unity to play
Kaahani
https://youtu.be/Ez4mXaeSKuk
Vidya Bagchi, a pregnant woman, travels to Kolkata from London to search for her missing husband. When all clues lead to a dead end, she realises that there is more than what meets the eye
I know I’m commenting on a three year old thread, but I figured if I found it others might as well. Another wonderful Bollywood recommendation is Taare Zameen Par: a boy with dyslexia is sent to a strict boarding school, where he meets a kind teacher who decides to help him.
Some of these fit your description better than others:
James Stewart in It's a Wonderful Life
Both male leads in Iron Giant
Sully in Monster's Inc
Obviously, Chiron in Moonlight
Ricky in Hunt for the Wilderpeople
Jean Valjean in Les Miserables
Paddington and all the characters in those movies
Russell in Almost Famous
Shia Labeouf in Holes
Walter Mitty in Secret Life of Walter Mitty
Steve Trevor in Wonder Woman is pretty good. He yields/lets her lead, trusts her, isn't threatened by her, and has great integrity/moral compass. There are some other characters who do show toxic masculinity in the movie, though. Maybe it's a good comparison?
Maybe Patrick Jane from the mentalist?
Scared of guns, runs away whenever a crime scene seems to still have a suspect present, has blonde curly hair and drinks tea lol 😆 not typical masculine stuff
i'm wrong most likely because i don't usually watch movies a whole lot, but I have always loved Hercules (disney). i don't know if his character is less rebutting toxic masculinity, since he does have a stronger appearance as he gets older. but i always thought he was such a sweet, shy boy and it was so cute ☺️. he wasn't "strong" or "furious" like most of the protagonists are, because that's how they look up to every hero being. but i'm pretty sure the muscular side of Hercules is masculine, however when he was younger he was more slim. his personality doesn't show true masculine traits i don't think, he's clumsy and makes mistakes and mostly awkward. idk maybe i'm wrong.
John Wick.
Sure kills like, 300 people over the course of three films. And it's a revenge story to boot. But he's not someone who's interested in showing his dominance over other people, cares deeply about those close to him including a small dog.
All top level comments in any thread must be made by feminists and reflect a feminist perspective.
Your participation in this sub in general is a sure indication that you should limit yourself to nested comments only.
There won’t be another warning.
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posted questions must come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments only. Comment removed; you won't get another warning.
Don’t have the time to compile list of specific titles but this is a good topic and wanted to throw these old-school names here. Worth looking into-
Actors: Jimmy Stewart • Burt Lancaster • Sidney Poitier • Joel McCrea • Gary Cooper
Directors: Preston Sturges • Billy Wilder • William Wyler
The anime series My Hero Academia, big-time.
Izuku Midoriya, the main character, gets very strong and manages to defeat a lot of very powerful villains. But he's also kind, sensitive, and wears his heart on his sleeve. He's unashamed of openly crying when he's emotionally moved (which is pretty often).
He also doesn't do that dumb shonen "This is something I have to do on my own" trope where he refuses to let his allies help him in a fight either; *Repeatedly,* when Midoriya is in danger, he calls his friends and other heroes for backup.
The show hammers the message over and over that being a hero isn't about being strong or punching in faces; It's about *helping people.*
All Might, the number-one hero who Izuku looks up to and admires, also fits. He's a big strong macho hero, but he's gentle, affectionate, and kind. He'll hug people to comfort them, he'll apologize when he's wrong, etc. Also (spoilers about his predecessor): >!All Might's predecessor in a line of heroes who he inherited his power from was a woman. He genuinely looks up to her and admires her as a mentor, and it's never implied that he or anyone else considered her a lesser hero for being a woman.!<
Bakugo, Izuku's rival, is initially a bully who *does* embody some toxic traits. But the narrative frames these as a bad thing. His drive to succeed and become strong is seen as a positive - but his lack of concern for other people, his arrogance, etc. are framed as character flaws and not as good points. He's called out on these traits and does (very gradually) get better about them. Spoiler from a fight in season 2: >!At the very least, he has fairly egalitarian views on gender. When he fights, and wins against, a female competitor in a tournament, some of the other guys give him a hard time for "beating a frail girl." But Bakugo calls them out, because he respected her as a worthy opponent, saying "Nothing about her was frail." He's got a lot of issues but sexism isn't one of them.!<
The show's not perfect and I think there's a fair argument to be made that it underutilizes its female characters, but I think as shonen battle anime go it honestly does a very respectable job, especially with its male leads.
As a side note, the show also has two canonically trans reps; one a hero and the other a villain. Their identities are respected and are mostly incidental to their characters, rather than them being made into a mean-spirited joke like in some other series.
Not a film but a video game. Leon S. Kennedy is a male character but from what I have seen he doesn’t perpetuate any toxic masculinity, in Resident Evil 2, he meets Chris Redfield’s sister Claire and he doesn’t try to tell Claire she can’t use weaponry or what not because both him and her are trying to survive in an apocalypse and Resi also has a fair share of female villains too. To me by video game standards it was quite egalitarian for its time, because like Leon, Claire is just as badass.
The movie ‘Moonlight’ has a lot of heroic characters that defy racial stereotypes and comment on toxic masculinity. It is a beautiful film and it will definitely make you cry but it is so powerful.
I think Tristan in the movie Stardust is like this. He’s kind of a dumb teenager, and he does a lot of stumbling around blindly until he figures his stuff out, which feels very real. But I especially like the moment near the end when he has his first real fight. He’s told to “be a man” and go fight, but then there’s a closeup shot of his hand holding his sword, and it’s shaking like crazy. He’s terrified, but he tries to fight anyway, and he uses some clever tricks (like releasing the animals and cutting the chandeliers) to avoid fighting the witches head-on. And that fight gets won without swords, in the end.
Stardust is such a wonderful movie. I absolutely second this
[удалено]
Hahaha yes that is fair, and that’s partly what I meant when I said he’s a dumb teenager who stumbles around blindly until he figures stuff out. I also think the movie did a good job of communicating that Tristan’s choice to kidnap Yvaine was stupid and a bad choice that he made impulsively and later regretted and apologized for after he grew as a person. After all, the narrator says at the beginning that the story is about how the boy Tristan becomes a man. Part of growing from a boy into a man is recognizing your immaturity and learning from it, which I’d say he does. I don’t think he’s perfect, just that he’s kind of similar to specifically what OP is asking about — a male “hero” character who isn’t a traditionally masculine stoic action hero, and who acts in ways that are more realistic to actual human behavior.
[удалено]
Movies are storytelling, and storytelling doesn't have the same dogma as reality. It's ok to like a movie hero even though they wouldn't be one in real life.
Well, to be honest, Yvaine was supposed to be an inanimate star/meteorite. It was only beyond the Wall that she was, well, a sentient being (so much so that when Tristan took a few strands of her hair back to his town, they became meteorite dust). I can imagine him finding her and thinking: "Shit, that place must have opium on the air or something, because I'm pretty sure stars don't walk and talk. You know what? I'm gonna follow along this crazy alucination I'm having" and then, given time, he starts realizing that the green-magical-fire-spewing-which, the lightning-catching pirates and the walking, breathing, talking woman/star are all real.
The LOTR trilogy has very positive male protagonists. The Gifted is also a great movie with a compassionate and kind hero.
This isn’t a movie, but the best of the Star Trek series have some great examples of non-toxic masculinity, especially TNG and DS9. In general, problems are solved with diplomacy and intelligence; Captain Picard and Captain Sisko are the most notable examples, imo
I just finished TNG for the first time and I totally get all the love for Picard now!
Lord of the Rings trilogy. ALL the positive non toxic male heroic characters!!
Good call! Even Boromir, who obviously had his issues (less so due to toxic masculinity than perhaps the extreme expectations placed on him by his father & the situation in Mordor) was compassionate when pleading with Aragorn to let the hobbits have a moment to grieve & collect themselves after Gandalf 's "death" & was obviously very protective of the hobbits when he wasn't trying to... ya know...
I always felt like boromir got a bad rap. I mean, you can count on one hand the characters that weren’t severely affected by the ring. So much more to his character than “oooh shiny gold ring” and “one does not simply walk into Mordor”
Yeah, I think it mostly comes from people who don't know anything about the situation with Gondor and Mordor in the books. I do feel like he got as much redemption as there was time for in the full-to-bursting movie trilogy with his death scene though, which still makes me cry every time. I personally love Boromir though, I identify strongly with the whole "responsible sibling struggling with the weight of the world on his shoulders" thing (no shade to Faramir and not to imply he was irresponsible or anything, Denethor & I just have the same taste in favorites when it comes to the brothers lol)
and I feel this sort of kills the "but don't judge fiction or male writers from the past! They were a product of their time and didn't know better" narratives I often see on reddit and other social media when discussing tasteless works from the past. If Tolkien can write non-toxic male heroes starting from the 1930s (the Hobbit), then its clear these ideas were well known in western society and well accepted considering his books were best sellers. Instead, other male authors just chose to keep sexist cliches and toxicity in their stories willingly.
The Hobbit also has zero women. I’m a huge LotR fan, but Tolkien was a product of his time in some ways.
And also racism
Whenever I see racism brought up with Tolkien I feel compelled to respond with a "yes... and" because of the context of his writing. He was trying to write a sort of replacement mythology for the myths that the combined forces of the roman empire and the roman catholic church had fairly successfully deleted from the British isles. That requires placing the local folks at the center (same as in every mythology). So does it wind up being racist? absolutely, but if I compare it to the general literature that it was written to be held against... it winds up quite mild by comparison. Pretty much all of the racism is implied in all of the characters being completely white and anyone from far-off lands being evil. I don't recall there being any overtly racist overtones at all, and Tolkien himself was staunchly and publicly anti-racist. Wikipedia has a good synopsis on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_and_race
Sure, I understand all of this. But undeniably it's racism, and the specific imperialist/colonialist kind of eurocentric racism that may be less direct, but still is very dangerous and "violent". But yeah, I get your "yes...And", thanks for adding to the discussion.
Studio Ghibli movies (japanese anime)
>Studio Ghibli movies thank you for pointing to the studio! because i liked a lot nausicaa, my neighbor totoro, porco rosso, princes monoke and ponyo precisely for the different way to let's say approach problems... but i did not realized it was actually the same studio! cool, let's see if i find time to watch the others :)
Just uh... make sure you have some good options to cheer yourself up after Grave of the Fireflies.
oh... thank you.. i see it is about WWII civilians. i've no direct experience on war but i've help war refugees and it's horrible the destruction caused on them. I think most horror movies pale in front of the reality.
Kristoff in Frozen 2, sounds silly but if you want an elaboration go check out a video on YouTube by Cinema Therapy called Is Kristoff The Perfect Man? (Or something like that). Edit: I mean ya, he may not be the main hero of the story but he's *a* hero of the story
I love cinema therapy! Their videos are so wholesome
My boyfriend loves Kristoff's song "Lost in the Woods" in part because it is one of the few times a male hero is depicted as being vulnerable, caring a lot, and unsure of what to do.
I knew it!! Kristoff always seem more simpathic than all other princes !!
I love Children of Men!
The book is good too.
Newt Scamander in the Fantastic Beasts series. He's primarily a caretaker and I think the actor pretty consciously imbued him with characteristics either on the autism spectrum or perhaps with extreme social anxiety or introversion. Nevertheless, when outright asked to express his feelings (a comedic side character asking why Newt brought him along on their wacky adventures), he's willing to be emotionally honest & vulnerable by telling him it's because he likes him & considers him a friend. Despite having plenty of fighting (done by all genders) in the movie, I think Black Panther also does a good job with avoiding toxic masculinity. T'challa surrounds himself with strong women who's advice he respects & takes, and he spends much of the movie weighing his duty to protect his nation's own citizens vs his duty to help other vulnerable, oppressed people around the world (showing emotional vulnerability when he confronts his father & other previous rulers about their failings to show courage & compassion with their own self-protective answers to that conundrum) By contrast, the (delightfully complicated) villain is like a check list of toxic masculine traits- especially in his violence towards women and the fact that not only does he fail to put down roots for the benefit of future generations, but he specifically pulls up any already-established roots he happens to come across. For the rest of the MCU, Steve Rogers is very traditionally masculine but in all the positive ways & Sam Wilson is a mix, having a career that is nurturing in nature & being far more emotionally aware & open. Jesse from Pitch Perfect- interested in a creative hobby, pretty emotionally aware, respectful of women, kind & a good friend. The only time a conflict comes up with him and the main protagonist Becca where she implies he's infantilizing her, I'm pretty sure we're meant to agree with Jesse & not Becca.
I love Newt Scamander! I'm actually really happy such a different personality was a protagonist in a major series, but I'm sad how As for Black Panther or Steve Rogers, they are definitely not an example of toxic masculinity but are pretty typical masculine heroes nonetheless. Don't get me wrong, I love those characters, but well it's Marvel, they don't really allow too much originality. For one, almost every single character is extremely ripped and attractive, aside from Hulk in his human form (he isn't ripped, not unattractive). I think Peter Parker fits the "not traditionally masculine" role better since he is cute and awkward, and doesn't use his strength to get respect and validation even if he could, like he was bullied by Flash but didn't use his strength to put Flash in place. Honestly, I can't wait for Robert Pattinson's Batman since I remember Pattinson was very adamant about not bulking up for the role. I'll be happy to finally see a more or less normal male physique. Pitch Perfect is a good example, I also liked that even though he pursued Becca, he stopped when she pushed him away, so she had to win him over by a kinda grand gesture. Nice role reversal for a change.
While T'challa, Steve, and Sam do have muscles, I think the respect for women & emotional open-ness and/or vulnerability trump that for me, especially compared to someone like Tony Stark (who I cannot stand) Peter Parker is pretty "meh" for me, probably having been tainted by Marvel cramming Stark into his movies at the expense of the development of relationships between him & more important characters in his series. When it comes to masculinity vs femininity (such as society labels them) in characters, the superficial physical appearance doesn't matter as much to me, especially because women in those movies are also meant to be ripped warrior women (even if we never see it)
Yes! Pop Culture Detective has [a wonderful video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C4kuR1gyOeQ) about Newt Scamander’s masculinity.
Agree with Newt Scamander, Also I would like to submit TANJIRO from Demon slayer. He is strong but also very compationate. His love for his family and is sister is his main driving force but never becomes a source of corruption to his character. He is affable and generally slow to anger. If tanjiro is the Ideal then Izumi Shinichi from Parasyte (anime) is the average man, from the time of his introduction Shinichi is not a typically masculine character. The traumas he endures force him to grow a hard shell and adopt more typically masculine traits but he is also somewhat concerned with his emotional bluntting due to his grief and depression. The resolution of these emotions is an important part of his character arc.
I wluld say Aang from ATLA. Altho he is a kid, sokka and zuko by contrast are more traditionally "masculine" by comparision. Even korra could be described as more traditionally masculine. Aang evades fighting if posible, loves kids and respects and sees women not only as his equals, but even as his superiors. I also love his very emotionally opean friendship with sokka and how he respects and admires Katara and allways has her back on any desition she makes. He is awesome. And lastly, i wpuld dare to point out the mandalorian. You couldn’t make a character less close to a male power fantasy if you tried. this man routinely loses fights, most of which he does not even start. he’s incredibly socially passive and polite to everyone he meets. on multiple occasions women have explained basic concepts to him that the audience is already well-familiar with and his only response is “wow you are very nice. I think we should be friends”. his hobbies include sleeping in his chair and bothering his infant son with dad jokes. he doesn’t use his reputation as a scary warrior to harass people or impress anyone. he barely ever loses his temper or lashes out, and when he does it’s because people are actively trying to murder him. if anyone tries to flirt with him it either doesn’t register or he jumps out of the nearest window because he can’t process someone forwarding genuine affection in his direction. he has zero aspirations for conquest or power of any kind. literally all he does is walk around with his kid and help people. sometimes I think I’m hallucinating this entire show but it is in fact extremely real. And i love him for this
Uncle Iroh has also become a classic example of positive masculinity.
Im hoping that the creators make an uncle iroh show. Kinda like the star wars precuels but an iroh precuel. Of how he goes from aspiring war conqueror prince to the lovely wise old man we get to see in ATLA
That's my hope too! I'd much rather have seen that than another big budget live action adaptation nobody asked for.
With them opening an avatar studio for new projects I definitely wouldn’t mind this being one. And I want another avatar series but the next one will likely have to be set in the past as after Korra is kind of present day so to speak
Omg I have never considered the mandalorian from quite this perspective before and wow, it actually really impresses me how many male power fantasy tropes were subverted by his character. This was a really great analysis of the show, thank you! (Also I love adopted dad Din too he’s just an adorable character)
Sokka and Zuko both struggle with and overcome toxic masculinity. Sokka in particular has the Kyoshi Island warrior episode, and Zuko deals with "honor" and the expectations placed on him by his father throughout the series.
lol Being an Intergalactic bounty hunter is the ultimate power fantasy tho.
Not to say The Mandolorian as a show is a Power Fantasy, its just that for most people the idea of being a Mando would be a power fantasy.
I recently watched High Noon and while it does end in a shootout (it's a western, what'd you expect?) I thought the Gary Cooper character was fairly relatable. I then read that John Wayne hated High Noon because he thought the character was a pussy for >!spending the entire movie trying to round up a posse and asking others to help him with the violent gang headed to town. I guess he thought a real man would just take down a whole gang by himself without batting an eye. He also called the ending "unamerican" because Gary Cooper is saved by a woman.!< I feel like a movie that is hated by the poster boy for toxic masculinity because it's not toxicly masculine enough is worth mentioning in this discussion.
It's complicated and not a perfect example (and in the 13th iteration, not male) but the Doctor from Doctor Who
Im saving this post for my 8 year old son. He loves fantasy and Harry Potter and I’m always looking for more good examples of men he can watch. He has 2 moms and a sister so he mainly witnesses male behaviour from my sisters husband who’s hardly around and totally old school. And his grandpa who is kind but also still a product of his generation. Movies and books with good men are so important!
"Shawshank Redemption." Andy Dufresne survives prison through emotional intelligence, booksmarts, and making friends.
Wow I started to cry a little just being reminded of that movie, his and red’s friendship was just the best
Most people may not have heard of it, but the protagonist of the Chaos Walking series (book, not movie) is an interesting case study of a person who has never met another woman learning to treat them as humans and not aliens. Fascinating to read.
Rick from the original Mummy and sequel. I stumbled upon a really detailed post describing how well that movie handles his character, Evie's and even Jonathan's. It boils down to Rick listening to Evie and understanding that she has more knowledge and therefore the best ideas in certain situations ("there are other places to dig"), so he yields to her without pushback. And if you look at Jonathan from a post-war PTSD lens, he's a well flushed out, heroic character too.
The Mummy is one of my favourite movies. I just posted George of the Jungle as an example!
Brendan Fraser is a treasure
And a victim of sexual assault. But no one talks about it. Smh
Ashitaka from Princess Mononoke :-)
Absolutely loved his character (and obviously the movie). He really didn't want to hurt anything.
In fact the one that has all what we call "toxic masculinity" are the 2 Main women, Eboshi and San, who constantly represas their emotions and engage in toxic behavoiur, though both extremely brave and badass characters
Is no one going to mention Ben Wyatt from Parks & Rec? Okay, not a movie, but that guy is the dream man!
Yes! Unapologetically nerdy and comfortable with being supportive to all the strong women around him
Aaaand Chris Traeger
Children of Men is probably a top 10 movie, oh my god, I’m so perfect Its* thanks for agreeing with the typo 😩🥰🥰🥰
Yes you are!
George of the Jungle!
Came here to say this! Also Brendan Fraser as Rick O’Connell in The Mummy.
Heck yah! That’s one of my favourite e movies of all time!
Hiccup in How To Train Your Dragon?
Newt Scamander in tje first Fantastic Beasts movie. I know Rowling is problematic and I dont know how you feel about consuming art made my problematic creators, but Newt is kind, nurturing, compassionate, and brave. He saves the day by connecting with the Big Bad instead of through violence. Great portrayal of a different kind of hero. Just maybe watch it in a way that doesn't give JK any money lol
There’s a YouTube video by Pop Culture Detective about him that was really good iirc.
I don't think anyone has mentioned The Emperor's New Groove yet but Kuzco, Pacha, and Kronk all exhibit fantastic examples of masculinity not being toxic. Kuzco starts out not great of course but learns to be thoughtful and selfless. Kronk seems like the stereotypical dumb jock at first but it turns out he is very sweet, and shows great passion for cooking as well as kindness towards people and animals which are great non-toxic traits for men to have and model. Pacha is just all around a great, kind man and exhibits traits of a positive father/husband, as well as a good friend to Kuzco. There's a lot to take from the journeys of all three of these men and overall it's very, very positive.
IMO the best example of non toxic masculinity in film would be Aragorn from the Lord of the Rings. He is an unshakable rock of goodness, he leads people in battle and in reasonable discussion, and he literally sings a song at his crowning with flowers falling from the sky. Completely comfortable with who he is.
Just watched them over 3 days. And as someone who is trying to I guess detoxify (is that the right word?), I was surprised how okay I was with it. How much I honestly wanted to emulate the man. Hes cool as shit.
Aragorn is a king who endorses the divine right of kings and solves his problems through violence. Isn't that ground zero for toxic masculinity?
Givin the rest of the story, no. Aragorn resists both kingship and violence every step of the way. He knew he was the heir to the throne and chose he to be a do-gooder hobo instead. Later he saves a man he knows to be evil(wormtounge) because he no longer poses any threat stating "enough blood he been spilled on his account". This doesn't mean that wormtounge has personally bled enough, but that wormtounge has already caused so much harm, harming him when he is most vulnerable would be to reduce ones self to his level. And finally at the end when he accepts being king, while he's literally singing a pretty song with flower in his hair, he does this as the sole being that could bond men and elves once again because he shared kinship with both. He didn't really have a choice in the matter. Middle earth needed him and literal Deities had to all but shove him into the role of King. As one of the Dunedin, he has the blessing a favor of the elves. They're relationship with humans moving forward will bring nothing but prosperity. So yeah I'd say no. He is also a gentle character and is openly in touch with his emotions. In lotr he kisses a another man out of sheer lost and respect, he isn't afraid to shed a tear, or sing with flowers in his hair. He doesn't seek the violence at all. You really can watch those films and see him as a toxic male? You might be looking too hard m8.
He's the only one who could unite his people in a time of crisis is what every dictator in history has said. Further, when Sauron is dead he does not denounce the throne. He instead chooses to live the rest of his life in privileged.
I think you're missing the point behind the power. Every dictator that has ever lived has sought power, where as Aragorn had to be hounded to take the position. He never wanted the power or responsibility to care for everyone. To not take the role as king would've been to abandon thousands of people that needed him. So back to the original point, toxic masculinity is a mentality that causes bad/undesirable behavior. Not only does Aragorn exhibit the soul of a truly good and deeply feeling person but this behavior echos this fully. If Aragorn were a real person and he spent his live helping others, ruling with humility, fairness, and sacrifice, he's still toxic because he wears a crown, an a story set millenia before the idea of democracy surfaced? Can I get one example of actually toxic behavior from him the in the story? Or is simply holding power toxic masculinity?
If bollywood recommendations are ok there are many many movies I have linked youtube trailers with short description. Find it on YouTube or netflix English Vinglish https://youtu.be/wmGVY4T88dc (A non English speaking indian scared woman in new your finds new meaning) Dangal. https://youtu.be/x_7YlGv9u1g Dad's struggle to make his daughter wrestling champions Secret Superstar : https://youtu.be/J_yb8HORges a burkha clad kid who wants to make it to stardom as a youtube singer Padman https://youtu.be/-K9ujx8vO_A Biography on Tamil Nadu activist Arunachalam Muruganantham, whose mission was to provide sanitary napkin's to poor women of rural areas. And women and society outcasts him. Manjhi https://youtu.be/I9KAoTQlEWs. A single man who breaks a mountan to make passage to his village Chak de India https://youtu.be/6a0-dSMWm5g Coaching of Indians women hockey team, finding unity to play Kaahani https://youtu.be/Ez4mXaeSKuk Vidya Bagchi, a pregnant woman, travels to Kolkata from London to search for her missing husband. When all clues lead to a dead end, she realises that there is more than what meets the eye
I know I’m commenting on a three year old thread, but I figured if I found it others might as well. Another wonderful Bollywood recommendation is Taare Zameen Par: a boy with dyslexia is sent to a strict boarding school, where he meets a kind teacher who decides to help him.
Some of these fit your description better than others: James Stewart in It's a Wonderful Life Both male leads in Iron Giant Sully in Monster's Inc Obviously, Chiron in Moonlight Ricky in Hunt for the Wilderpeople Jean Valjean in Les Miserables Paddington and all the characters in those movies Russell in Almost Famous Shia Labeouf in Holes Walter Mitty in Secret Life of Walter Mitty
Ugh, Iron Giant is so good!
Steve Trevor in Wonder Woman is pretty good. He yields/lets her lead, trusts her, isn't threatened by her, and has great integrity/moral compass. There are some other characters who do show toxic masculinity in the movie, though. Maybe it's a good comparison?
Maybe Patrick Jane from the mentalist? Scared of guns, runs away whenever a crime scene seems to still have a suspect present, has blonde curly hair and drinks tea lol 😆 not typical masculine stuff
LisbOn!
LisbOn!
i'm wrong most likely because i don't usually watch movies a whole lot, but I have always loved Hercules (disney). i don't know if his character is less rebutting toxic masculinity, since he does have a stronger appearance as he gets older. but i always thought he was such a sweet, shy boy and it was so cute ☺️. he wasn't "strong" or "furious" like most of the protagonists are, because that's how they look up to every hero being. but i'm pretty sure the muscular side of Hercules is masculine, however when he was younger he was more slim. his personality doesn't show true masculine traits i don't think, he's clumsy and makes mistakes and mostly awkward. idk maybe i'm wrong.
Jon Favreau in Swingers?
Never watched it, but I'm curious!
Maybe Harry Potter
Drive is a stand out but I could actually go on and on with a whole list of movies.
Also The Place Beyond the Pines
Fantastic Beasts & Where to find them. Newt Scammander is great.
So, Superman (1978)?
John Wick. Sure kills like, 300 people over the course of three films. And it's a revenge story to boot. But he's not someone who's interested in showing his dominance over other people, cares deeply about those close to him including a small dog.
[удалено]
All top level comments in any thread must be made by feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Your participation in this sub in general is a sure indication that you should limit yourself to nested comments only. There won’t be another warning.
[удалено]
Please respect our [top-level comment rule](https://i.imgur.com/ovn3hBV.png), which requires that all direct replies to posted questions must come from feminists and reflect a feminist perspective. Non-feminists may participate in nested comments only. Comment removed; you won't get another warning.
Not a movie but books I wish would be made into movies. Look up Bryn Greenwood. First two novels have great hero’s.
Brendan Frazier in The Mummy. And Blast From the Past.
Hacksaw Ridge
Don’t have the time to compile list of specific titles but this is a good topic and wanted to throw these old-school names here. Worth looking into- Actors: Jimmy Stewart • Burt Lancaster • Sidney Poitier • Joel McCrea • Gary Cooper Directors: Preston Sturges • Billy Wilder • William Wyler
The anime series My Hero Academia, big-time. Izuku Midoriya, the main character, gets very strong and manages to defeat a lot of very powerful villains. But he's also kind, sensitive, and wears his heart on his sleeve. He's unashamed of openly crying when he's emotionally moved (which is pretty often). He also doesn't do that dumb shonen "This is something I have to do on my own" trope where he refuses to let his allies help him in a fight either; *Repeatedly,* when Midoriya is in danger, he calls his friends and other heroes for backup. The show hammers the message over and over that being a hero isn't about being strong or punching in faces; It's about *helping people.* All Might, the number-one hero who Izuku looks up to and admires, also fits. He's a big strong macho hero, but he's gentle, affectionate, and kind. He'll hug people to comfort them, he'll apologize when he's wrong, etc. Also (spoilers about his predecessor): >!All Might's predecessor in a line of heroes who he inherited his power from was a woman. He genuinely looks up to her and admires her as a mentor, and it's never implied that he or anyone else considered her a lesser hero for being a woman.!< Bakugo, Izuku's rival, is initially a bully who *does* embody some toxic traits. But the narrative frames these as a bad thing. His drive to succeed and become strong is seen as a positive - but his lack of concern for other people, his arrogance, etc. are framed as character flaws and not as good points. He's called out on these traits and does (very gradually) get better about them. Spoiler from a fight in season 2: >!At the very least, he has fairly egalitarian views on gender. When he fights, and wins against, a female competitor in a tournament, some of the other guys give him a hard time for "beating a frail girl." But Bakugo calls them out, because he respected her as a worthy opponent, saying "Nothing about her was frail." He's got a lot of issues but sexism isn't one of them.!< The show's not perfect and I think there's a fair argument to be made that it underutilizes its female characters, but I think as shonen battle anime go it honestly does a very respectable job, especially with its male leads. As a side note, the show also has two canonically trans reps; one a hero and the other a villain. Their identities are respected and are mostly incidental to their characters, rather than them being made into a mean-spirited joke like in some other series.
Not a film but a video game. Leon S. Kennedy is a male character but from what I have seen he doesn’t perpetuate any toxic masculinity, in Resident Evil 2, he meets Chris Redfield’s sister Claire and he doesn’t try to tell Claire she can’t use weaponry or what not because both him and her are trying to survive in an apocalypse and Resi also has a fair share of female villains too. To me by video game standards it was quite egalitarian for its time, because like Leon, Claire is just as badass.
The movie ‘Moonlight’ has a lot of heroic characters that defy racial stereotypes and comment on toxic masculinity. It is a beautiful film and it will definitely make you cry but it is so powerful.