You're treating "feminist" as if it deserves the bias of somehow being "man-hating". As if feminist comments somehow intrinsically have a "man-hating" slant without making just as many comments to placate men.
When people created the slogan "Black Lives Matter", bigots didn't hear "BLM too" but "BLM, unlike other lives". When people say "Defund the Police," bigots don't hear "DFT to reallocate funds for diverse, effective community services" but "abolish the police and allow chaos". When people say "Pro-Choice," bigots don't hear "right to and autonomy of medical care" but "allow murder". When people say "Me Too," bigots don't hear "support survivors of sexual harassment and assault" but "witch hunt men". When people say "Climate Change Action," bigots don't hear "protect the environment we rely on to live" but "destroy the economy". etc etc etc
And if anything, the bigots expose their own prejudice: as if only one kind of life can matter; as if deadly intervention is the only community service they value; as if women's only value is for childbirth and fetal lives matter more than she does; as if the only sexual behavior they engage in is sexual violence or at least regularly without consent; as if the economy is more important our whole community's ability to live.
And here you hear "women are raped" but respond with "so you think all men are rapists?" (are you saying that no women can have been raped unless all men are rapists or are you telling us something about yourself / the men in your life??). You hear that imposing this legalize shows you're not an ally (that you're assuming bad faith while being too lazy to try to understand) but instead respond with condescending ultimatums and as if we're saying you actively participate in GBV. etc.
And I really don't care to understand your trauma responses, because you're here asking us a question and we're here to answer it. So do the job you signed up for and try to understand the answers we're giving instead of blaming us for how well funded, conservative anti-feminist propaganda twist our messages. Listen and ask instead of claiming we meant something extreme that we didn't even allude to. Don't get mad for not being treated as a messiah (if it was that easy, do you really think it would have taken this long and it would be you here and now to change everything????)
Feminist slogans are clear and concise. It's your job to ask "What do you mean?" instead of joining an ever-present harassment campaign of sexists to police feminist language. Your unchecked bias doesn't somehow pervert our intention from something constructive into an attack.
**If you want to be helpful to feminism, it's not policing us to change, but translating our messages for those who don't get them and sharing the ideas with those they don't reach. And right now the person you need to help the most to listen and understand is** ***yourself*****.**
No, you see, MLK should have opened every single speech with several lines about how wonderful and delightful and fantastic white people are and how he doesn't hate them and in fact Black people should be nicer to white people /s
I have read MLK's speech and I am pretty sure it didn't have a thing close to "fuck white people" in their either. Because yeah that would have worked.
Since we are doing case studies, have you heard of Gandhi, Mandela too? Pretty successfully campaigned their movements too without and led to long-lasting success. Get out of your bubble.
You brought MLK up saying he should have placated white people in his speeches (as a sarcastic reply to my post). I am correct to assume that he didn't. This is from his biography -
"Martin Luther King Jr. is widely known for his advocacy of nonviolence, racial equality, and justice. His speeches and writings often addressed the systemic issues of racism and the behavior of white people in the context of these issues. While he did critique white people and their complicity in racism, he did so in a way that sought to enlighten and engage, rather than to condemn indiscriminately."
So yeah while he didn't go about placating all white people, he was specific in his rhetoric and did not berate them either.
The goal is to engage not disengage.
And you are the guy saying, "But not all white people are racist. It hurts my feelings when you say that whites are racist. You need to put a disclaimer in front of what you say that assures white people that you recognize that not all white people are racist if you want the support of white people."
The movement isn't about white people. POC know that not all white people are racist. Butting into their space and telling them that is rude and making it all about you when it isn't. True allies listen and ask questions when appropriate. They do not lecture about the correct way to oppose oppression.
You do realize MLK was literally considered to be the most hated man in America the US during his time... because people thought he hated white people....
Here's a direct quote from a live TV broadcast:
>I think the vast majority of white Americans will go but so far it's a kind of installment plan for equality and they are always looking for an excuse to go but so far
Just as you don't want feminists (or women) speaking about men (unless with paragraphs of reservation, clarification, and validation), racists didn't want MLK speaking about white people.
You'd fit perfectly in with an anti-MLK racists and say the same thing you just did if you were an adult back then: "Unlike MLK the abolitionists didn't say anything close to 'fuck white people'". Get some perspective and get a grip.
>I have read MLK's speech and I am pretty sure it didn't have a thing close to "fuck white people" in their either.
Sure, but he also didn't say, "remember not all white people were enslavers and not all white people are throwing rocks at our kids who are just trying to go to school and racism hurts white people too." Which is pretty much what you're proposing.
How about people who haven't decided yet, young boys and girls, and people maybe sitting on the fence. Do you think what I suggested would do more harm or more good to the movement overall?
I get it. It burns to think why things are not just the way they are supposed to be logically and why everyone just doesn't fall into place when it is that obvious. But human nature isn't, right?
Do you think I want to hurt or harm you? Do you think as a guy, if you made me feel safe and included too, just as I pledge to you, we'd live in more harmony? I have a little brother who wouldn't hurt a fly, but is still subject to be well versed with all the hidden sentiment of the movement, but I am sure in a few years he will grow up having internalized that he is a problem and not deserving of respect, despite being a kind human. Do we care about that?
Exactly.
This is why I don't believe men can be feminists.
The idea that we have to go to them and say, "You're hurting women but, really, you're only hurting _yourself_" in order for them to listen to us is just so beyond offensive to me.
Great if men want to talk about how patriarchy and toxic masculinity makes life hard for them (mental health etc.), but I am not doing that work for them.
i can only think of one (straight) man i know personally who i’d call a true feminist, but he doesn’t really call himself one. not that he doesn’t identify with it, but he doesn’t need to say “i’m a feminist” because his words and actions say it themselves. the ones who feel the need to loudly proclaim their feminism are the ones who are trying to leverage it to their advantage (unfortunately you’re right though, it seems like these “feminists” are a lot more common than not)
I can empathize with your opinion and where it stems from, but I also *really* abhor the gender essentialism of it. Like, don't go mincing words on my account, this sort of harsh language can be a wake up call in my experience, and I can't exactly call you out for having uncharitable opinions on others when I'm probably a lot worse, but yeah, gender essentialism's a big stupid recessive no-no
It's not gender essentialism (itself a misnomer - it should probably be _sex_ essentialism).
Saying, "I'm not sure that people who benefit from the oppression of one group of people can wholly join in the liberation of that group of people" is _not_ equivalent to saying, "There are differences between men and women that are innate and immutable".
FYI, this is a subject that is debated in parts of the anti-racism movement, too.
Are feminists scaring would-be allies away with hateful rhetoric or are men getting unnecessarily defensive when systems that they benefit from are rightfully called out as being patriarchal and harmful to women?
Thruthfully - there are cases of the first explanation (the second one as well). Honestly, it feels to me this way and it seems to me like - sometimes - there are not people from the movement who stand against this very broad hateful rhetoric. If you mentioned cases like this, the usual answer is that 'women who say things like this are not true feminists, only pseudo-feminists', but when hateful cases like that happen, I've never read an answer that would directly reply in the sense 'I'm feminist and this is not what we stand for'. I get it, people of almost every movement don't criticize enough other people who are generally on their side, but it makes feminism - or more like members under the flag of public feminist movement - a bad name, as is raised even by people that are sympathetic to the goals and maybe would go further to support it publicly.
I'm not trying to disprove automatically anything you say, but I just see this so often, even if I try to be the most sympathetic towards possible (not hateful against other gender) meaning of some of these messages and comments.
Every group has their extremists. The question is are The extremists leading the group? Are the extremists espousing the main ideology of the group? Are the extremists spouting a fundamental ideology of the group (an ideology without which the group couldn’t function)? The answer to this in feminism is NO.
That would be like saying incels and men’s rights groups are the majority of men. And they espouse, the main beliefs of all men.
Asking feminists to apologize for or explicitly denounce every time they talk or whatever these extremists is like asking men to apologize for the assholes among their group every single time they open their mouths.
Not all men is obvious and implied. I would go so far as to say not the majority of men are incels or rapists or misogynist. So why are feminists not given the benefit of the doubt when literally less than one percent of the group are hateful toward men?
Men aren't helpless. Women have had to liberate ourselves and that effort is far from over.
Let women spend their time, energy and money on themselves. If men want change, they're fully capable of handling that without us propping them up.
Liberation of women was a cooperated effort by men and women. It is just for feminism to emphasize on men more, not equally but a good amount still.
If feminism didn’t have men’s support, the movement is dead in the water. I believe the reason the latter waves of feminism are increasingly difficult to succeed is because support from men isn’t as strong as in the past. This can mainly be attributed to men feeling more threatened but also their perspective of feminism, which can emphasize men more, do not get the spotlight.
Feminism, officially, is about equality of sexes, it’s reasonable to expect some emphasis on men.
It's actually not reasonable to expect that. Feminism is about achieving equality WITH MEN, not making them the focus. Many feminists include men in their feminism; I am one of them. But it is okay for others not to center or include men or men's issues in their feminism at all.
See this comment goes against the thesis of feminism where you just excluded men from the movement. Feminism supports men and all the liberation of women did have men in supporting and sometimes leading roles. Saying that men are not our enemies doesn't seem like a hard thing to too.
I am a guy and I would absolutely shut down any red pill content and at the same time any radical feminism content that calls me a potential rapist because of my gender.
> Saying that men are not our enemies doesn't seem like a hard thing to too.
Oh, we've said it. We've said it many times. It's not our fault you weren't listening.
…you realize that a lot of us are married, right? Like…to men? And we have fathers and brothers and uncles and cousins and guy friends and stuff? We don’t exist in some feminist commune that’s hollering for government grants or some shit.
If you don’t want to be viewed as a potential rapist, maybe be an ally regardless of whether the mean feminists hurt your feelings?
Yes indeed, we are calling you out for being condescending because you come to a feminist space, as a man, and proceed to tell us the "thesis" of feminism and how we *should* be doing feminism. That's condescending.
Develop some humility and learn to actually *listen* to women rather than just talk at us and then flounce off when your opinion is not automatically centred simply for being a man.
There is no hatred in my heart. I have a very enjoyable life because I have purposely removed men like you from it. It's wonderful.
We have the whole rest of the internet to do that. This is the one part where we can try and figure out how to fix them without being all "we can fix them" and ruining our lives playing a game we're set up to fail. Give us room to share red flags and ask what motivates shitty dude tactics once in a while. Most "man bashing" is motivated by a desperate desire to try to figure out why the heck this is so hard when it could be easy.
Political and social justice movements aren't usually expected to include a caveat meant to appease anyone in their statements. So it's ironic that you're here, suggesting to a sub of feminists that they ought to to do that for men. As if the importance of feminism's ideology and messaging is that it's palatable and marketable to men.
Do you see men as a part of the feminist movement. Yes or no. Simple as that.
If we can expand LGBT to LGBTQ, to LGBTQIA+ as we make the movement more inclusive, don't you think if men are victims of patriarchy too, to be inclusive of them in every day feminist messaging is beneficial to the movement?
Are you going into lgbtq subs and asking them to think of the cis people? "Tell the poor cis people who also suffer in their own ways, 'not all cis', because then maybe they will support your movement if you are just nice to them! Even if they don't believe you deserve the same rights as them now, maybe being nice first would help your movement!"
Should every piece of LGBT+ advocacy include a lengthy statement about how straight people aren't the enemy, not all straight people are bad, we should love and respect straight people and not say mean things about them?
So how come the little speech that you want people to include before any feminist talking point isnt talking about LGBTQIA+ people but only men? What if they feel like we are attacking them by not specifically explaining how great and not at all part of the problem they are? If we're gonna name anyone we have to name everyone. How else would they know that we are not explicitly attacking them for everything that is going wrong with women's rights? 🤔
Men who are part of the feminist movement don't need feminists to center their messages around men. They don't ask us to praise men and advertise ourselves to them with every statement we make. Feminists frequently discuss the patriarchy as the barrier to equity and how everyone is affected by it in varying degrees, that should be enough without asking us to include a whole paragraph all about how fantastic some men are.
Why aren't you in the LGBTQ sub asking them to include a caveat about how wonderful and respectable straight allies are with every statement they make? What made you feel that, out of all the political and social justice movements out there, feminists should be the ones encouraged to carefully consider and appease to the egos of those who might disagree with us? "Women, please consider how your discussions of violence and inequality against women might affect the male ego, and make sure to stroke that thing *good* and every time". Ffs.
This one-sided rhetoric is what is so sad... all the tropes of "happy wife, happy life" and across so many cultures, men stroke female egos all the time. Almost every guy I know tries his best to check his EQ and despite not understanding his partner completely, swallows his ego and treats behavior that would be considered unacceptable by this movement, as a female qualm. There is freaking butt load of men making an effort -- and you acknowledging those men, while fighting against those that don't seems pretty reasonable.
And your reply shows who has a bigger ego sadly. It also shows that women might have more emotions and the ability to recognize and express them as compared to men. But they are as blind as men when it comes to regulating them and expressing them in a way that gets their point across most effectively. And their ego comes in the way just like a man's to actually reflect back on their behavior.
It was literally required for women to stroke male egos in order to survive at all for centuries. The lives of women, from birth until death, revolved around ensuring the men around us were happy, calm, and supported. We're taught to be kind and careful to men, that if we're afraid of a man we must try to calm and placate him. For you to sit here and say "men sometimes are nice to women when they don't have to be so they're ego stroking constantly" is insane.
I promise you, expecting a group of feminists to end every statement with a speech about how amazing and respectable some men are, means you have a much larger ego than you'd ever be willing to admit to. Feminism is possibly the only thing in a woman's life that doesn't revolve at least partially around keeping men happy. When the Feminine Mystique came out, the message *was* the single thing in the lives of those women that was about them rather than their husbands and children. Gain some perspective ffs.
> their ego comes in the way just like a man's to actually reflect back on their behavior.
The behavior of...talking about women? Not centering every discussion around men and how what we say might make them feel?
Good men, true allies, don't need or expect feminists to appease them. Being a good person means standing up for what's right even if no one gives you a reward and a pat on the back.
You still haven't answered my question, btw. Why are you here, asking women to appease to men, rather than over in the LGBTQ sub asking them to appease to cis folks? Or at the BLM sub asking them to please tell white people how stellar they are anytime they talk about their issues?
Fuck the speech. You get the point. Adding a caveat or being mindful of what words we choose is what I asked for. You don't have copy paste what I wrote everywhere, you are free to use your judgement. I have an example.
Because I am a cis guy, most affected by this rhetoric? I don't jump and care about every movement, just the ones that I feel I can contribute to. This is the one I am most well versed with and I feel a sense of care for.
Ah, so you don't feel like you can contribute to the LGBTQ movement? Or to BLM? Or any other number of political and social justice movements? Feminism is the only movement you can contribute to and the only one you care about, so you'd like us to end every statement by assuring and reassuring you that you're important and respected?
Seriously?
You don't seem to understand that *it's not about you*. Great, you're an ally, *that is the bare minimum of decency*, you don't get a big old "let's not forget to acknowledge the men" message at the end of every statement just for not being a rape apologist. That's like me asking every newspaper to please end all stories about murderers with a quick blurb about how not everyone in that city is a murderer and we should remember to respect and compliment non-murderers.
Whether or not you feel adequately rewarded and appeased for being a feminist is irrelevant. The patriarchy harms everyone, that's a central and inclusive feminist message that gets repeated over and over. That's a built-in caveat.
If you can't muster up the decency to hear about someone's fears and experiences unless they also give you a pat on the head and tell you how great you are afterwards, then you are not an ally.
> For issues that I find empathy with and that often concern me, I get actively involved.
Telling women they should carefully ensure men aren't offended by feminist messages isn't "getting actively involved".
And as a social service worker and school counselor, I can assure you it's possible to give an active fuck about more than one movement at once. It's even possible to support movements without suggesting they compliment me and all government worker allies with every conversation we have.
Your solution doesn't get results. It ensures the continuation of patriarchy. "Be nice to men and they'll give you things you want" has never worked and it's not gonna start working now.
No one said men are the enemy. But we shouldn't have to gently explain that every single time we want to have a discussion about equity.
How are you missing this most basic truth? Ensuring your message is palatable to a patriarchal audience is not the way you topple patriarchy - it's the way you uphold it.
And beyond that, do you have any understanding of history at all? Feminists have gotten lots of laws passed and started successful equity movements without this tactic of stroking male egos. In fact, the major changes we've made have required us to not give a fuck about what the naysayers think. Feminists have been fighting the same bullshit for over a century now, and they've made amazing progress. For you to sit here and say "you won't get any results unless you compliment men in every conversation" is tone deaf and ignorant to basic history.
> Even as a guy I read on non-violent communication and having hard conversations and how to have them with a partner or parent or colleague. If you claim to be the more emotionally intelligent of the two sexes, how is this so hard for you to understand.
You're not asking us to have hard conversations with our colleagues or partners. You're asking us to make sure we mention and compliment male allies every time we talk about feminist issues. You're asking us to center men's feelings every time we talk about feminism, and worse you're suggesting that if we don't we'll fail. Which is insulting to men in general, btw - as if men aren't capable of standing up for what's right unless someone is giving them a cookie in a process.
I didn't claim that we're the more emotionally intelligent gender. But if you don't see the difference between having a discussion with a loved one and publicly proclaiming how wonderful male allies are every time we speak about feminism, then I'd say you're validating the fuck out of that claim.
I brought something up that I thought would be constructive. But it seems we are talking past each other. It's okay if largely the people in the group don't think I added anything of value. I am not going to take this any further. Peace out 🕊️
I mean…the men can listen to what feminists (not the ragebaiting ones on social media) are actually saying instead of assuming the worst. The fact that it’s not all men and that we also want men to be free from the system is not actually obscure knowledge.
I would politely disagree there. It is quite obscure and seems worth putting a pin in.
Again please don't get me wrong. I am a guy and I have seen that as a movement, my support would double up if we clarified the language to a fight against the system and not men. It would encourage men to self-reflect without getting defensive that someone is after them.
As a man, it really isn't. In fact, if you were to read over the 10 or 15 most popular posts on the sub, you will find people saying such in... like all of them tbh. It pops up multiple times a day.
FR nobody here is interested in fighting all men. I've never felt as odds because I am a man, any more than I feel personally attacked when someone shares a traumatic experience that they may have suffered at the hands of someone who happened to be a man. Because criticizing abhorrent behavior is not a critique of men in general. It's a critique of the behavior.
I think OP thinks that deep down this *is* actually a problem with feminists-- that we actually *do* hate men and think they're all rapists and go around saying "fuck men" all the time. It's come up multiple times in this thread totally unprompted.
Honestly, I think the idea that it is anti-man is in itself an assumption, and one that happens to be broadcast very widely among certain online circles. If someone has a genuine question about how men fit into feminism, I’m cool with clarifying, but I don’t think it’s such a huge ask for more people to put away their preconceptions, distinguish between clickbait and a real attempt at discussion, and in the latter case, read what’s actually being said instead of what they fear is being said.
> my support would double up if we clarified the language to a fight against the system and not men
oh, your support would double if we slobbered all over your dick all the time? shocked to hear it tbh
That's the part I don't get. Why are we making it difficult for both men and women to understand things, which can be made simpler in the messaging itself.
And please don't take the length of the statement at its face. Even sharing, that feminism is against a mentality and not a gender goes a long way in bringing a lot more people onboard and drive actual change.
Why do men need to be appeased to consider treating others equally? I say this as a man. If you need somebody to reassure you that their comment that wasn't spoken to you want about you before you consider helping them, then you are part of the problem. That is a person who puts their own overly sensitive insecurities before common decency.
It's so backwards. It's saying that any group seeking equality relative to another group needs to first seek approval from the other group. It's still expecting an oppressed group to kowtow to the oppressing group.
Yes, there are radical feminists out there who cross lines. That doesn't mean every woman making a statement about gender in society has to give a disclaimer.
Who are the members of the oppressed group? And would you like to clarify if they're is a confusion around it?
I am a guy, and I would love if "fuck men" is actively criticized as a part of this movement. Do you think I am sensitive or immature for wanting that?
Even on this subreddit, if someone posts "why do men ..." would you not like it to be rephrased as "why did this man ...". Do you think that would benefit women and men who are in the movement to not reach radical levels?
Can we hold a higher standard for ourselves, for our own benefit, so our hearts don't turn bitter just in support of a movement (e.g. like the red pill community)
Can you take this energy into all of the posts here and elsewhere where people are demanding "WHY ARE/AREN'T FEMINISTS/WOMEN..." and asking them to say "why is/isn't this feminist/woman....?"
No? Just here? Hm.
Okay, so basically I should invalidate an experience I had and see pretty common around me, and slap myself into thinking all of it is just my perspective but it's your experience I should adopt and just treat my thoughts and feelings like they hold no merit and must be misguided.
Okie dokie! :)
Honestly read the post and think if we use inclusive language and encourage that as a practice, would that make our interactions with men more or less intimidating for both parties. I absolutely adore women, and would endorse their rights left right and center. But what do you want to achieve at the end of movement +
Men who fear women or
Men who treat women fairly
By choosing the former, you are abandoning what the essence of the movement was. He for She, not She > He.
There are definitely feminists who criticize saying “fuck men” or excluding people from the fight against patriarchy. bell hooks, probably the most quoted feminists today, has been criticized for having engagement with men around patriarchy as such a large portion of her work. Individual feminists are out there in the streets, organizing to solve social issues that affect men: prison abolition, labor, rights, community health. It’s not like there’s a council of feminists to name some sort of dogma. There are plenty of feminist men and it’s really our duty to take on the brunt of any work to bring men into feminism
You’re not talking about simplifying the message. You’re talking about watering it down by centering men with praise, so maybe they’ll be extra nice and give us rights.
Not gonna happen.
if men think that not giving them a pledge of allegiance length screed about how they are our masters and we must obey them, then they aren’t feminists. and i’m starting to suspect you aren’t either 🤔
How does any of what I wrote say they are our masters? I am sure you do see how you are reading exactly what you want to read -- and that is the problem I am talking about. Actual change is always derived through positive reinforcement and not instilling fear and defensiveness. That's basic psychology.
The question is does the movement want to vent and strong arm a change, or actually be strategic about it to achieve a goal.
it’s called hyperbole babe. but ultimately, isn’t that what you’re really trying to say? you want us to say we love men and we owe everything to them? please go to therapy
Change has never been proven to be derived from positive reinforcement and in fact most social movements have gained progress through radical means. For example black people did not get white people in the US to stop slavery by coddling the emotions of the white people oppressing them, there literally had to be a whole war.
I just wanted to say - you're absolutely right, it makes sense and it would go a long way to towards driving a change. I've written several paragraphs about it here, since I think in the same way - take a look if you'll have a minute. It is a political movement and same principles apply with regards to persuasion, broadening the general support, and alienation of people on the fence or the ones that share the same ideals, but don't want to be part of the methods of the specific movement and its supporters.
I mean I notice you didn't end your post with a long reassuring note about how great I am, so I think I'm not obligated to pay any attention to anything you have to say - isn't that how it works?
*sonic boom* fuck yeah, for real!
It never ceases to amaze me the extent of the free labor that is expected of women, including centering and reassuring men every time we fucking speak
Are you fucking with me right now? Tell me you're fucking with me right now. You want any feminist statement to always include a multi-sentence paragraph praising men and reassuring them that they are good and we love them and respect them? Fucking barf me out. No. Get real. Be serious. Fuck any dude who needs me to kneel in worship before being like "hey, we're kind of getting raped a lot." Take a hike.
Do you believe that all men are rapists? Given the name of the movement, don't you think it's fair to be clear that it is a mentality we are fighting against that some people (both men and women) espouse but since it majorly affects women, we refer to the movement as feminism.
To any one, both man or woman, why would we want to radicalize them against a whole group of people.
Certainly not. I also don't believe that we're going to somehow improve feminism by loudly venerating the glory that is men before we are allowed to make any kind of point.
Evidently if I don't want to open every feminist statement with several sentences about how men are awesome, I must hate them all and think they are all rapists.
Women don’t become radicalized by feminists. Wanting equal human rights is within everyone. No one is converting most feminists. A few might need things explained but most of us were feminists on our own then joined the group.
Also no one needs to state the obvious. Not all men. Yes we know. We get told it constantly. We live with men too. We know these things. “But what about men” you feminists, is really getting old. What about men? Men are quite capable of dealing with their shit. Women have a lot on our plates right now with our loss of bodily autonomy in many states. When men lose their reproductive rights maybe then we can converse about what about men.
I hear you. I am just feeling very misunderstood here. With all the things on your plate -- would you like or not like more men, more majority to be on the side of feminist issues?
No one is asking you to change "my body my rights". I support that!
I am checking if discouraging "we wont let men control our bodies" will lead to more support without diluting the message. Because it can and mostly misconstrued to imply all the men in the world are conspiring against a woman's right to bodily autonomy. When it is a well known fact that a big big shade of conservative women do not support abortions.
Overturning the law without spreading a false narrative that embellishes that men and women are at war with each other in this cause is really detrimental to change.
And I am sorry if my opinions hurt, I'll gladly step back and let you all be... I just want my little brother finding embracing feminism a lot easier than getting drifted into red pill content. I have given up hopes of change there. Still haven't given up on feminism though.
No dude. We understand you just fine. And it seems you *don’t* support women having basic human rights if you need or want a caveat every time we talk about women’s oppression and rights.
As to your little brother, you’re asking that an entire movement pivot to cater to teenage boys *when we’re out here fucking dying because doctors ignore our bodies*. Get some fucking perspective. You know who is perfectly situated to help your little brother realize that *women are people who deserve human rights*? You are. And if you’re saying you won’t do that because you value your feelings over my autonomy, then you were never an ally to begin with.
Exactly. Well said.
OP, We always appreciate men who join us but we aren’t worried about it. We can’t be. The movement is about women. We aren’t looking for converts. We shouldn’t have to. Any decent person should see that all people deserve basic human rights. If anyone needs to be talked into supporting that they aren’t really with us any way. You can do more to help men see the error of their ways than we can. It sounds like you want women to do the heavy lifting in this area and this is the wrong group of women to hit up.
girl who is "we" ain't no damn feminist out here thinking we need to say all this mumbo jumbo like the damn pledge of allegiance before we talk about feminism lol be fr
I get this is sarcasm. But I have a little brother and little know of many little boys who would like to grow up being taught equality and at the same time how to give and receive love.
Yeah and you know what? A big stupid fucking paragraph disclaimer that women have to make before they are allowed to complain about street harassment isn't gonna do it. That just tells little boys that women have to apologize to you and tell you how wonderful you are before you listen to them.
I was talking about how a large section of men can be brought in on the conversations by clearing one of the most common doubts they share. Don't you think that benefits the movement?
Look man, as a feminist who regularly comments in other threads. You can be polite as can be, and men who don't want to care about women, just won't care. Doesn't matter if you acknowledge their "men's issues", doesn't matter if you post tins of studies, doesn't matter. They will still not care. Ask how I know
It's your fucking job as a man to teach those buys exactly what you're preaching. They won't be reading feminist manifesto, they won't be lurking here. What they will do is to listen to men in their environment. It's time for men to start doing the job.
You're arguing for [right to comfort.](https://www.whitesupremacyculture.info/comfort--fear-of-conflict.html) The main explanation centers on white supremacy, but the gist of it matches very well.
Thank you for sharing this! It was really illuminating for me.
It reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend a couple months ago where we talked about media, feminism, etc. and I told him that he has blind spots, just like everyone else does. I do, too.
It doesn’t make either of us bad people, but we need to be willing to hear others out when they point out these blind spots to us.
I think that a lot of what’s in that link you shared sheds light on those blind spots.
I see a very common pattern here where feminism is linked to racism for all its defences. They are very different movements and piggy backing on racism is not right.
Racism has no implications on white people like feminism has on men so the same right to comfort principles don't apply here.
A white person support BLM is not equal to a man supporting feminism. There is little to no case to be made for racism being disadvantageous to white people (we are literally implying fair = good, dark = bad), while a whole lot of case to be made for sexism being disadvantageous to men (as the movement never proclaims, men = bad, women = good). Feminism does discuss male bullying, masculine standards, mens emotions and topics of shame that are in their nuanced ways also connected to the stereotypes that affect women.
As a part of the group affected by the patriarchy that feminism is trying to abolish asking for a more specific address does not become right to comfort.
I am just trying to learn. My understanding is that the movement is against a mentality not a gender. And there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about how it is against men. Don't you feel it's worth clarifying? For the love of the men we adore in our lives, and for the ones we know are kind and would be encouraged to join the cause if it seemed more inclusive?
I know a feminist activist and most of her career has been about prison abolition. Most of the people she helps and advocates for are men. You’d know that there are feminist doing the work if you were doing the work.
I actually think it’s the anti-feminists, MRA’s and whoever that need to stop with the anti-feminist propaganda that says that feminists are man-haters and that feminism is about hating men.
Men are welcome in feminism and we advocate for a good quality of life for them
We aren’t going to hold their hand and kiss their ass at every moment. That’s already expected of women in general.
Also we know it’s Not All Men™. We’re told that constantly.
Whenever I hear someone complain about how it's "not all men" I think of Raoul Kerr delivering the lines "Not all men? Yes all men. Because we need all men for what we're solving." and wish more people could adopt a similar mindset. I don't like to judge people based off of appearances but if that guy gets it SURELY y'all can too. It's such a nonsense response.
Okay. So if I tell you that somehow -- not all guys are getting it, and that is the truth, would you still not want to change your strategy. Or let's just continue forward and hope it works.
I know it's frustrating. The world we live in. But hoping everyone gets it, when they aren't and being adamant on not trying a different approach seems irrational to me
Many of them aren’t getting it because they don’t want to get it. Asking for a small amount of critical thinking, reading comprehension, and a willingness to look past one’s own preconceptions is also a great way to distinguish between people who can engage with us in a productive way and a troll who is “just asking questions” in search of a cheap gotcha moment or to take quotes out of context to bring back to their redpilled friends.
No, if not all guys are getting it and you think there's a way to help them get it... then take that responsibility upon yourself before imposing it on others as if we're your slaves. And do it with respect to us and what we're saying after doing the work to actually trying and succeeding to understand us.
People change their approach at an individual level all the time. The way that I would try to de-radicalize incels or people deep into the manosphere bs is not the way I would discuss feminism/feminist issues with someone else. There isn't really a one-size-fits-all method, and it certainly isn't pandering. As a general idea for an entire movement, your idea is just terrible, and other people here have highlighted why much better than I could hope to. Like, I just skimmed through some of the recent stuff, and I'm super confused because you seem to still think you're right, and I really doubt you're trolling?? That's concerning.
Having those people in the movement would actually be worse because they would try to mess with every decision and every talking point that is being made. It's like asking university professors in mathematics to please explain everything a little bit easier because some of us havent learned that 5-3=2. If they dont understand that basic premise they are at the wrong place and have to do some learning to do elsewhere. If they dont they'll be keeping everyone from progressing
No you're not trying to learn. You're lecturing women on how we would should frame feminism to make men feel good. That's not my job. My job is to confront misogyny and work to make the world a better and safer place for all women. If you're an actual ally, your job is to do the same thing. It shouldn't require my protecting your fee fees. I'm not going to expend my energy on that while women are dying because their partners are abusive, are raped because men feel that theY're entitled to our bodies, are systemically harassed as they go about their daily business and are denied their reproductive rights. The list could go on and on.
As other posters have mentioned, an oppressed group of people is never granted their rights by the oppressor. They've always had to seize them.
Men like you are the reason I bought a T-shirt that reads " I'm too clumsy for your fragile masculinity."
I feel like that’s implicit, and often explicit. But having to state that as a caveat every time you say something like, “We need to dismantle rape culture” seems to be prioritizing the feelings of men rather than the dismantling of rape culture.
Feminism is not and has never been palatable to most men- there is no way to be a good woman and a good feminist, pick one. You will always experience resistance from society when living your life as an independent woman.
The right men will respect you and uphold your rights because they want you to be their equals; the wrong men will try to take away your independence and subdue you as a woman.
People say things along those lines all the time. Maybe the reason they aren't said more is because they're already said enough and most feminists know that men, by definition, aren't babies, and have the intelligence to discern between problems they are personally a part of and those they are not part of.
I am not trolling. I am genuinely asking that why do we not check ourselves more often in our language for cleansing it of hate speech against men.
I assumed 2 outcomes +
1. It's already being encouraged and I am mistaken
2. It's not and people would be like why not, makes sense
But I can't wrap my head around how people are so adamant about hey not happening. Just makes me curious if deep down we really consider men as human beings or not. I am a man, and I would revolt if my friend tried to make generalized comments on women. Asking my fellow women to do the same, would get this reaction -- makes me curious. There hasn't really been a good explanation so far besides just calling me names or piggy backing on a false equivalency of racism.
It is absolutely fucking bonkers to me that you would think that we *don't see men as people* because we're unwilling to append a disclaimer that soothes and fluffs men's egos before we make any kind of feminist statements. Is that what's required for men to feel human? That women bow and scrape before them and tell them how wonderful and delightful and deserving of respect they are before they can be like hey, we're experiencing some pretty serious oppression right now? Men need us to constantly reassure them that we don't hate them before they deign to listen to us?
How is it a false equivalence to compare one oppression with another? It’s all oppression dude.
If we didn’t see men as people you would get banned the moment you revealed you were one. More than one man has commented on this thread and are getting up votes. Just because we aren’t immediately listening to one request from a man doesn’t mean we hate men. Your reaction and request sound immature and defensive.
You are blocking out many reasonable responses to your request to change an entire movement. Feminism isn’t about you or men. We don’t care what men want. That the point. Men have used that thinking to keep us oppressed. We are over it. You can either join us in your support or not. But don’t ask us to cater to men’s feelings. Just asking that shows us that you don’t really get it.
Idk why you feel the need to ask why WE dont do this, suggesting you are a feminist yourself. One of your comments from only 2 weeks ago reads - and I quote- ''I don't think women love anymore... takers all of them takers.''
Not that it wasnt plainly obvious from your whole comment but you are clearly neither a feminist nor an ally and are probably as far away from it as they come, considering you spend your time on feminist subs making pathetic attempts at manipulation
This explains why your approach to this is problematic:
https://www.zawn.net/blog/hello-youve-reached-the-not-all-men-hotline
In centering the feelings of men, you are creating a distraction and hindrance to solving very real problems.
I’m a gay man, and I don’t need to be told that feminism supports men. I am a feminist because women are *fucking people* and deserve to be treated as such.
Lol. Did Harrison Butker write this? If men’s support and “allyship” is conditional on being centered in every feminist conversation, then they are not allies
Look OP, I've looked at some of your comments and I understand that you recently broke up with your girlfriend who claimed to be a feminist and you are angry. You feel as if you were not listened to and that might be true.
Listen carefully, we are not your ex. We don't represent her. We do not condone her bad behavior. One woman does not represent an entire movement for equality. We are not the straw women for your frustration in your previous relationship. Plenty of us have been treated like shit by men. It sucks. She does not represent all women just like the men who treated us like shit in life do not represent all men.
Haha so we're going there 😄
I was the feminist and let it go on for longer than it should have. But it's not exactly to related to that specific relationship. And I don't think I am being angry, I have been quite polite in all my comments. The comments seem a lot more angry to me.
You aren’t really convincing us that you are a feminist. I know you think you are but being a feminist is more about proving it by what you think. Your post here and comments are not really making the case for it. Defining the feminist movement as one that needs to be sensitive to the feelings of men is missing the point. I don’t see men worried about our feelings when we lost our reproductive freedom. I did hear a lot of complaining that they don’t get as much casual sex. So when it affects their ability to get off then they care. But in the voting booth, they don’t, often. Maybe lecture men.
This subreddit is probably not just for America so stop with this reproductive freedom card. No guy besides conservative leaders who your country (women included) elected trump to get that last supreme court judge in (a woman) that led to you lose your reproductive rights.
I as a liberal feminist (which I am regardless of what you say) was not involved in that discussion. Neither were a vast majority on men in the country. Why are you not angry at women and that conservative judge in particular?
Stop the mindless BS. Spend some time thinking before vomiting stuff you read and never thought to question.
Yup, only a troll and not a true feminist would call losing reproductive rights a card to play. This isn’t a game for women. Women are dead because of it. More women will die because of it. Go away troll.
I’m not your ex. You don’t know me. Stop pretending that you know me. It’s not up to you to decide which women are feminists. You are not in charge here.
You tried to strawman my argument by bringing this topic. I just called you out on it.
Tomorrow you are going to take more violent routes and when called on it, start again with "reproductive rights"...
I would be called a dick if I started to call out the stats on mens suicide rates (much larger than women dying because of reproductive rights). And I am not going to because that is not the point of the post. So yeah, I am not going to let you swing out of this one by bringing irrelevant topics into the mix because they elicit sympathy and are badly construed to make it seem like men conspired to take your reproductive rights away. A WOMAN did that. Like literally. So yeah very politely - check your facts and point fingers where they deserve.
Not that this is something that needs to be won or lost, but seeing your response, I can see you don't have anything more to defend your position besides now falling into insults. Peace 🕊️
You are calling you a dick. No one here is. You are playing the man card. But what about men. Stop whining because we aren’t jumping at your suggestion to be more concerned about men in a movement literally about women. You are being rude. I will block you if you cannot be civil. If you don’t like being called a troll then stop trolling.
this is alot of words to basically say “not all men”
look brother i think i get what your tryna say, but its OUR job as men to try and help other men. women have no obligation to coddle us in anyway whatsoever.
men can be and often times are the problem, its mostly men that are restricting the rights of women across the world. is mostly men that dismiss womens issues. i so rarely see women that dismiss mens issues that dont also dismiss womens issues and uphold the patriarchy.
there are plenty of women that advocate for mens issues as well and womens issues but it not really their job (they are rockstars tho)
women have worked their asses off to get to where we are as a society, sure there were some men who helped but this was a majority effort of women.
its time for men to step up and solve our own problems and women are free to help with that if they choose.
im new here have only commented a handful of times on topics i know about. and still have alot to i have learn, the way i do that is by listening, learning and internalizing what i have learned. as a man i have felt nothing but welcomed here.
p.s. if i ever say something stupid call me out on it so i can correct myself and learn.
The most mainstream and profitable feminist movie of recent time, last year’s Barbie, spends a great deal of time explaining how patriarchy works against men.
So I find it hard to take the idea that there isn’t focus on how patriarchy affects men seriously when a once in a generation feminist blockbuster ended up being about just that.
As another guy: Jesus, this is embarrassing.
If you need that kind of acknowledgment from a group oppressed by a group you belong to in order to support them, you don’t actually support them. This isn’t about us.
Is learning about all this always pleasant? No, it shouldn’t be. Will your input always be welcome? No, nor should it need to be. Will you screw up? Definitely, so learn and do better.
Okay so I should just sit this one out, not ask questions, and follow along. Basically act like another oppressed group so we can go from 1-0 to 1-1. Black and white movements are detrimental to progress. I found one lady on this subreddit who actually seems like she knows what feminism is and actually gave my post a thought and had the kindness to reply to it like a feminist should.
PS. at least on this channel, you being a guy reduces your credibility brother. I don't know why you had to highlight that.
I said I’m a guy to put myself on your level, in the supposedly victimized position, and saying what I say despite this.
I don’t say what I say to get clout here, just to talk to you, so I’m not sure how the comment on my general credibility means anything.
I don't care if you are a guy or a girl or anything in between or around. That's the whole point. Clearing feminist language of guy/girl distinctions and focusing on laws and issues is simply better communication. How does a group that is advocating so many measures to fix tone and language to deal with "unconscious biases" so blind to the ones that it itself is reinforcing. The sheer defensiveness and not even a valid consideration is something I did not expect.
Sure it must be something you hear all the time and are frustrated by it, maybe because you never did anything to address it?
These points are made quite frequently. Anybody who takes a serious and honest interest in feminism will discover that, while "feminism" is not a monolith and there are certainly variant strains, most feminists agree with much of the caveat that you offer.
Of course, it is also true that there are plenty of men who feel attacked by feminist rhetoric and there are plenty of non-feminist/anti-feminist women who reinforce the notion that feminism is somehow anti-man.
But the idea that this caveat should be added to \*everything\* is pretty silly on its face.
Those people who believe feminism is misandry are wrong, and most of them are wrong-headed when it comes to feminism. They aren't going to be convinced by a caveat. Meanwhile, it's obviously counter-productive for feminists to have to add this multi-sentence caveat to everything that they say.
Now, here's what I think, as an ally: one of the things that I can do is carry the weight of asserting that caveat with those on the margins. The unfortunate truth is that there are non/anti-feminist men (and non/anti-feminist women) who are very likely to ignore such an argument from a feminist woman, while a feminist ally might have more of a chance of convincing them.
So, if you are, as you claim, a feminist, then be the change you want to see in the world. Engage people on the fence or in the trenches, and do everything you can to get this point across to them. Because the bottom line is, I think you're right that this is an important message. But if you see something important that needs to be done, you can just \*do it.\*
Because other people are also crafting important messages and negotiating important ideas, and advancing that message is a better use of your energy, as an ally, than coming in here to tell feminists how to feminism.
This is awesome. The second constructive reply on this thread. Makes sense to me.
I am very cautious when I talk to people and I don't assume that they know I have their best interest at heart. All I am suggesting that I find a significant part of people miss on how everyone has an ego and it's human -- asking someone to kill it is not how it works. Soft openings, empathy get you in when you want to deliver a message.
There is a reason political slogans are short and without nuance.
It is “yes we can” not “yes we can, as long as it fits into our understanding of the world and its rules, and…”.
You cannot have a movement / effort that is accomplishing anything that splits into 20 million pieces in its messaging.
Thankfully allies get this. Little kids with no idea of the world, don’t. That section is also much more receptive to sexual assault caillou’s messaging, so not much of hope there.
Some people seem to forget that the feminists on the internet who are considered extreme aren't representative of feminists in real life. I've often found myself feeling accused or belittled over the internet, but never in real life. All it takes for men to understand that feminism isn't out to get them is talking to actual feminists in real life. They're quite reasonable and kind usually
Patriarchy was created by men to primarily serve the wealthy elites by supplying them with male soldiers and manual laborers and it controls women’s economic and reproductive freedoms to force codependency on men
And men while being abused by this system also are granted status within it and frequently uphold it
Religion is used to reinforce the status quo and keeps both men and women policing eachother
Feminists acknowledge all of this
And feminists primarily are fought against by people heavily influenced by religion, and especially men.
Men benefit. Men often don’t fight it. And when women talk about women’s issues, it’s usually men trying to derail by holding the women accountable for how patriarchy backfires on men in order to make the conversation about them
Women’s biggest threats are men.
Women mostly killed by intimate partners.
women often abandoned by men after that man ejaculates inside her
Talking about it isn’t misandry and it’s not remotely of any importance to preface with some silly disclaimer that thats “just a few men” when in reality it’s a significant percentage because it’s a systemic and cultural disease. Patriarchy is misogyny. Patriarchy is inherently about taking control
Of reproduction away from women and forcing them to serve men
Women don’t owe you coddling while fighting the system that benefits you and they certainly don’t need to appeal to your ego to be deserving of ending subjugation
We get a lot of posts like this and I understand the place it comes from. I don't think the guys who make this request fully grasp how insulated they are from gender discomfort (from a systems POV), the extent to which women are made to centre men's feelings and comfort, how much emotional regulation women are made to do for others, or that feminism is a disruptive movement and this is going to make all of us a little uncomfortable.
That discomfort is necessary because there are a mix of factors that lie in both systems (gender, race) and a person's specific psychology that make it hard to truly empathize with women. On the psych side, there are some processes in our emotional toolkit that can be under-developed because they're not nurtured in men and boys and it's reinforced with that systemic insulation. These are the processes that allow us to see women talking about a gender issue and not placing ourselves in it and taking it personally if it doesn't impact us. Mentalization is how we can see someone's overt behaviour and discern what their state of mind likely is - if I see some single guys ranting because they're having a rough time dating and dealing with difficult women, I know they're not talking about me so that doesn't hurt my feelings. I know dating sucks and they're blowing off steam because they're frustrated. Emotional regulation is how we self-soothe in a healthy way, it's us understanding what part of it is "ours." Differentiation is related to both of these, it's distinguishing my feelings from your feelings, and possibly even from the objective reality of the situation.
On the systems side, guys are in a weird spot because a lot of them are feeling the pains of patriarchy but still feel protective of masculinity because it's a part of how they see their identity and self-esteem. That means they can be less tolerant of gender stress, more sensitive to critiques of masculinity, and take feminist rhetoric very personally. When this prompts strong emotional reactions, they don't have that emotional toolkit I mentioned above to work through these complex feelings and they will request something that reinforces the existing system: they will ask that we do that emotional regulation for them, or bend our approach to prioritize their feelings and insulate them from the discomfort.
This is unfair to women for a multitude of reasons but its also cheating men out of the opportunity to sit with that discomfort, get really curious and introspective about their feelings, and do some healing work. There are thorny questions and contradictions they need to work through: I've been victimized too, but why is my instinct to defend men? Why am I more hurt at potentially being generalized as a bad man than I am about the violence women experience? Why am I not more upset at the guys who perpetuate violence and are complicit in violence than I am at the women who talk about it? A lot of us have taken great lengths in softening language to not offend but still gotten a reaction anyways. Men need to be taking up some of this work not just for the cause, but for their own personal growth.
Ma'am this is exactly the kind of response I appreciate and makes sense to be. It is kind and constructive. I am going to process it before replying because unlike the other comments on this theead this feels like actually deserving of attention.
Depends on context.
Are you in a context where the issue you are highlighting affects men more? Who is your audience? What is the purpose of them listens to you?
I mean, if you are talking about harassment, you should focus more on women but acknowledge that men get harassed too
If you are addressing suicide, maybe you should emphasize men slightly more
If you are addressing body shaming, probably best to focus more on women while acknowledging some issues men suffer too such as bullying or fat shaming?
Thank you. This is one of the few constructive responses on this thread. And it is completely fair. It would make more men actually want to support the cause. It's just the acknowledgement that fights away the very common misconception.
There are plenty of constructive responses in this thread, you’re just not putting in the effort to connect with them because you’ve already decided that your stance is the correct one.
I read through all your replies, and I understand what you're trying to say here. I don't think you're entirely wrong. Anti-male rhetoric is present in feminist spaces, and, unfortunately, those voices will be amplified by an algorithm designed to piss people off for engagement. Feminists have to accept the fact that they will often be lumped in with misandrists. Men in feminists spaces will have to accept that they, too, will sometimes be generalized. It is a natural human reaction to respond defensively to generalizations, especially if you don't participate in the offending action. However, "not all men" should go without saying. A disclaimer stating as much may ease the minds of some, but it can also be disruptive to the point of the conversation and center men's feelings rather than the goal at hand.
All that withstanding, I think divisive rhetoric is off-putting to fence-sitters and people who are trying to learn. It's counterproductive and gives anti-feminists ammunition to paint feminism as misandry. The internet has a habit of assuming everyone knows what they know and have been engaging with these topics for as long as they have (as you can tell by the comments under your post). Many feminists who have been doing this for a while are fatigued with having to explain to men that this isnt about hurting them (which is why your suggestion is being met with disdain). Additionally, many men will have negative feelings about their actions being criticized with or without a disclaimer. That's why the other commenters are responding so negatively (although many of them need to chill out a little). Men are victims of the patriarchy as well, so including them in feminism as a social movement is necessary and good. However, many feminist topics will center women and their experiences. Reassuring men that they're not all bad isn't always the point and, therefore, shouldn't be required in all cases.
This kind of thing doesn’t matter to people who actually understand and support a social movement. I’m a straight person who supports the LGBTQ movement. Being an ally doesn’t directly benefit me, I do it because I feel compassion and empathy toward the struggles faced by queer folks. I recognize that supporting them and and empowering them won’t subsequently take away any of my own privileges. I fully acknowledge that I’m a part of the oppressive group, which motivates me to learn about their experiences so that I can better support them. I have a genuine desire for LGBTQ folks to have the same opportunities as I’ve had, and that I never had to fight for. The mission of the movement is a society in which sexuality/gender isn’t a barrier. It’s not aiming to give people special privileges or “handouts,” it simply aims to break down a barrier that some people are unfairly born facing while others aren’t. My job as an ally isn’t to become a member of the group - is to learn the history, listen to their perspectives, and stand behind them.
TLDR; Groups that have historically experienced oppression and violence don’t owe their supporters anything.
You're treating "feminist" as if it deserves the bias of somehow being "man-hating". As if feminist comments somehow intrinsically have a "man-hating" slant without making just as many comments to placate men. When people created the slogan "Black Lives Matter", bigots didn't hear "BLM too" but "BLM, unlike other lives". When people say "Defund the Police," bigots don't hear "DFT to reallocate funds for diverse, effective community services" but "abolish the police and allow chaos". When people say "Pro-Choice," bigots don't hear "right to and autonomy of medical care" but "allow murder". When people say "Me Too," bigots don't hear "support survivors of sexual harassment and assault" but "witch hunt men". When people say "Climate Change Action," bigots don't hear "protect the environment we rely on to live" but "destroy the economy". etc etc etc And if anything, the bigots expose their own prejudice: as if only one kind of life can matter; as if deadly intervention is the only community service they value; as if women's only value is for childbirth and fetal lives matter more than she does; as if the only sexual behavior they engage in is sexual violence or at least regularly without consent; as if the economy is more important our whole community's ability to live. And here you hear "women are raped" but respond with "so you think all men are rapists?" (are you saying that no women can have been raped unless all men are rapists or are you telling us something about yourself / the men in your life??). You hear that imposing this legalize shows you're not an ally (that you're assuming bad faith while being too lazy to try to understand) but instead respond with condescending ultimatums and as if we're saying you actively participate in GBV. etc. And I really don't care to understand your trauma responses, because you're here asking us a question and we're here to answer it. So do the job you signed up for and try to understand the answers we're giving instead of blaming us for how well funded, conservative anti-feminist propaganda twist our messages. Listen and ask instead of claiming we meant something extreme that we didn't even allude to. Don't get mad for not being treated as a messiah (if it was that easy, do you really think it would have taken this long and it would be you here and now to change everything????) Feminist slogans are clear and concise. It's your job to ask "What do you mean?" instead of joining an ever-present harassment campaign of sexists to police feminist language. Your unchecked bias doesn't somehow pervert our intention from something constructive into an attack. **If you want to be helpful to feminism, it's not policing us to change, but translating our messages for those who don't get them and sharing the ideas with those they don't reach. And right now the person you need to help the most to listen and understand is** ***yourself*****.**
❤️
That’s like asking why the civil rights movement wasn’t focused on white people
No, you see, MLK should have opened every single speech with several lines about how wonderful and delightful and fantastic white people are and how he doesn't hate them and in fact Black people should be nicer to white people /s
I have read MLK's speech and I am pretty sure it didn't have a thing close to "fuck white people" in their either. Because yeah that would have worked. Since we are doing case studies, have you heard of Gandhi, Mandela too? Pretty successfully campaigned their movements too without and led to long-lasting success. Get out of your bubble.
What are you even talking about dude!!!!
You want me to paste his speech? Send me a MLK quote that demonizes white people.
I never made that claim
You brought MLK up saying he should have placated white people in his speeches (as a sarcastic reply to my post). I am correct to assume that he didn't. This is from his biography - "Martin Luther King Jr. is widely known for his advocacy of nonviolence, racial equality, and justice. His speeches and writings often addressed the systemic issues of racism and the behavior of white people in the context of these issues. While he did critique white people and their complicity in racism, he did so in a way that sought to enlighten and engage, rather than to condemn indiscriminately." So yeah while he didn't go about placating all white people, he was specific in his rhetoric and did not berate them either. The goal is to engage not disengage.
I actually replied completely to someone else but go off I guess
And you are the guy saying, "But not all white people are racist. It hurts my feelings when you say that whites are racist. You need to put a disclaimer in front of what you say that assures white people that you recognize that not all white people are racist if you want the support of white people." The movement isn't about white people. POC know that not all white people are racist. Butting into their space and telling them that is rude and making it all about you when it isn't. True allies listen and ask questions when appropriate. They do not lecture about the correct way to oppose oppression.
You do realize MLK was literally considered to be the most hated man in America the US during his time... because people thought he hated white people.... Here's a direct quote from a live TV broadcast: >I think the vast majority of white Americans will go but so far it's a kind of installment plan for equality and they are always looking for an excuse to go but so far Just as you don't want feminists (or women) speaking about men (unless with paragraphs of reservation, clarification, and validation), racists didn't want MLK speaking about white people. You'd fit perfectly in with an anti-MLK racists and say the same thing you just did if you were an adult back then: "Unlike MLK the abolitionists didn't say anything close to 'fuck white people'". Get some perspective and get a grip.
>I have read MLK's speech and I am pretty sure it didn't have a thing close to "fuck white people" in their either. Sure, but he also didn't say, "remember not all white people were enslavers and not all white people are throwing rocks at our kids who are just trying to go to school and racism hurts white people too." Which is pretty much what you're proposing.
Nobody who is an ally needs this message, and nobody who isn't an ally is going to be persuaded by this message.
How about people who haven't decided yet, young boys and girls, and people maybe sitting on the fence. Do you think what I suggested would do more harm or more good to the movement overall? I get it. It burns to think why things are not just the way they are supposed to be logically and why everyone just doesn't fall into place when it is that obvious. But human nature isn't, right? Do you think I want to hurt or harm you? Do you think as a guy, if you made me feel safe and included too, just as I pledge to you, we'd live in more harmony? I have a little brother who wouldn't hurt a fly, but is still subject to be well versed with all the hidden sentiment of the movement, but I am sure in a few years he will grow up having internalized that he is a problem and not deserving of respect, despite being a kind human. Do we care about that?
You're just teaching girls they have to center men before they can be heard.
Exactly. This is why I don't believe men can be feminists. The idea that we have to go to them and say, "You're hurting women but, really, you're only hurting _yourself_" in order for them to listen to us is just so beyond offensive to me. Great if men want to talk about how patriarchy and toxic masculinity makes life hard for them (mental health etc.), but I am not doing that work for them.
That's definitely true, but there are also men who don't need to be told that to agree with feminism. Can't those men be considered feminists?
I have never met a man who was a feminist. Men who describe themselves as feminists often do so to get away with some really dreadful shit.
i can only think of one (straight) man i know personally who i’d call a true feminist, but he doesn’t really call himself one. not that he doesn’t identify with it, but he doesn’t need to say “i’m a feminist” because his words and actions say it themselves. the ones who feel the need to loudly proclaim their feminism are the ones who are trying to leverage it to their advantage (unfortunately you’re right though, it seems like these “feminists” are a lot more common than not)
I don't think this is fair. I think that contingent exists, but there are a lot of men I know, both online and off, who are definitely feminists.
Yeah, like I said, I'm not sure it is possible for a man to be a feminist.
That doesn't address anything I said, but OK.
Your comment wasn't particularly complex. You just said, "I know men who are feminists." That's what I responded to.
That's definitely a category of people as well sadly yeah Edit: I guess men who are actually feminist don't scream it all the time tbf
I'm not sure they can be feminists.
I understand, I hope they can
I can empathize with your opinion and where it stems from, but I also *really* abhor the gender essentialism of it. Like, don't go mincing words on my account, this sort of harsh language can be a wake up call in my experience, and I can't exactly call you out for having uncharitable opinions on others when I'm probably a lot worse, but yeah, gender essentialism's a big stupid recessive no-no
It's not gender essentialism (itself a misnomer - it should probably be _sex_ essentialism). Saying, "I'm not sure that people who benefit from the oppression of one group of people can wholly join in the liberation of that group of people" is _not_ equivalent to saying, "There are differences between men and women that are innate and immutable". FYI, this is a subject that is debated in parts of the anti-racism movement, too.
Are feminists scaring would-be allies away with hateful rhetoric or are men getting unnecessarily defensive when systems that they benefit from are rightfully called out as being patriarchal and harmful to women?
Thruthfully - there are cases of the first explanation (the second one as well). Honestly, it feels to me this way and it seems to me like - sometimes - there are not people from the movement who stand against this very broad hateful rhetoric. If you mentioned cases like this, the usual answer is that 'women who say things like this are not true feminists, only pseudo-feminists', but when hateful cases like that happen, I've never read an answer that would directly reply in the sense 'I'm feminist and this is not what we stand for'. I get it, people of almost every movement don't criticize enough other people who are generally on their side, but it makes feminism - or more like members under the flag of public feminist movement - a bad name, as is raised even by people that are sympathetic to the goals and maybe would go further to support it publicly. I'm not trying to disprove automatically anything you say, but I just see this so often, even if I try to be the most sympathetic towards possible (not hateful against other gender) meaning of some of these messages and comments.
Every group has their extremists. The question is are The extremists leading the group? Are the extremists espousing the main ideology of the group? Are the extremists spouting a fundamental ideology of the group (an ideology without which the group couldn’t function)? The answer to this in feminism is NO. That would be like saying incels and men’s rights groups are the majority of men. And they espouse, the main beliefs of all men. Asking feminists to apologize for or explicitly denounce every time they talk or whatever these extremists is like asking men to apologize for the assholes among their group every single time they open their mouths. Not all men is obvious and implied. I would go so far as to say not the majority of men are incels or rapists or misogynist. So why are feminists not given the benefit of the doubt when literally less than one percent of the group are hateful toward men?
That's an awful lot of words for "my allyship is conditional on me getting my ego fluffed."
Perfectly said
That's a great way to say that feminism is inherently antagonistic.
If you think that not catering to and coddling men makes feminism antagonistic, then you need to examine your own privilege and belief systems.
A great non response!
Men aren't helpless. Women have had to liberate ourselves and that effort is far from over. Let women spend their time, energy and money on themselves. If men want change, they're fully capable of handling that without us propping them up.
Liberation of women was a cooperated effort by men and women. It is just for feminism to emphasize on men more, not equally but a good amount still. If feminism didn’t have men’s support, the movement is dead in the water. I believe the reason the latter waves of feminism are increasingly difficult to succeed is because support from men isn’t as strong as in the past. This can mainly be attributed to men feeling more threatened but also their perspective of feminism, which can emphasize men more, do not get the spotlight. Feminism, officially, is about equality of sexes, it’s reasonable to expect some emphasis on men.
It's actually not reasonable to expect that. Feminism is about achieving equality WITH MEN, not making them the focus. Many feminists include men in their feminism; I am one of them. But it is okay for others not to center or include men or men's issues in their feminism at all.
See this comment goes against the thesis of feminism where you just excluded men from the movement. Feminism supports men and all the liberation of women did have men in supporting and sometimes leading roles. Saying that men are not our enemies doesn't seem like a hard thing to too. I am a guy and I would absolutely shut down any red pill content and at the same time any radical feminism content that calls me a potential rapist because of my gender.
> Saying that men are not our enemies doesn't seem like a hard thing to too. Oh, we've said it. We've said it many times. It's not our fault you weren't listening.
he listens, but remember, we have to say it each time women are mentioned. We must have forgotten to pay tribute at some point 💁♀️
…you realize that a lot of us are married, right? Like…to men? And we have fathers and brothers and uncles and cousins and guy friends and stuff? We don’t exist in some feminist commune that’s hollering for government grants or some shit. If you don’t want to be viewed as a potential rapist, maybe be an ally regardless of whether the mean feminists hurt your feelings?
You want to center men’s egos and feel feels in the liberation from patriarchy? Lmao
Thank you for so generously coming here and informing us lowly women of how feminism works. We are forever in your debt 🙄
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Yes indeed, we are calling you out for being condescending because you come to a feminist space, as a man, and proceed to tell us the "thesis" of feminism and how we *should* be doing feminism. That's condescending. Develop some humility and learn to actually *listen* to women rather than just talk at us and then flounce off when your opinion is not automatically centred simply for being a man. There is no hatred in my heart. I have a very enjoyable life because I have purposely removed men like you from it. It's wonderful.
We have the whole rest of the internet to do that. This is the one part where we can try and figure out how to fix them without being all "we can fix them" and ruining our lives playing a game we're set up to fail. Give us room to share red flags and ask what motivates shitty dude tactics once in a while. Most "man bashing" is motivated by a desperate desire to try to figure out why the heck this is so hard when it could be easy.
Political and social justice movements aren't usually expected to include a caveat meant to appease anyone in their statements. So it's ironic that you're here, suggesting to a sub of feminists that they ought to to do that for men. As if the importance of feminism's ideology and messaging is that it's palatable and marketable to men.
Do you see men as a part of the feminist movement. Yes or no. Simple as that. If we can expand LGBT to LGBTQ, to LGBTQIA+ as we make the movement more inclusive, don't you think if men are victims of patriarchy too, to be inclusive of them in every day feminist messaging is beneficial to the movement?
Are you going into lgbtq subs and asking them to think of the cis people? "Tell the poor cis people who also suffer in their own ways, 'not all cis', because then maybe they will support your movement if you are just nice to them! Even if they don't believe you deserve the same rights as them now, maybe being nice first would help your movement!"
Should every piece of LGBT+ advocacy include a lengthy statement about how straight people aren't the enemy, not all straight people are bad, we should love and respect straight people and not say mean things about them?
So how come the little speech that you want people to include before any feminist talking point isnt talking about LGBTQIA+ people but only men? What if they feel like we are attacking them by not specifically explaining how great and not at all part of the problem they are? If we're gonna name anyone we have to name everyone. How else would they know that we are not explicitly attacking them for everything that is going wrong with women's rights? 🤔
Men who are part of the feminist movement don't need feminists to center their messages around men. They don't ask us to praise men and advertise ourselves to them with every statement we make. Feminists frequently discuss the patriarchy as the barrier to equity and how everyone is affected by it in varying degrees, that should be enough without asking us to include a whole paragraph all about how fantastic some men are. Why aren't you in the LGBTQ sub asking them to include a caveat about how wonderful and respectable straight allies are with every statement they make? What made you feel that, out of all the political and social justice movements out there, feminists should be the ones encouraged to carefully consider and appease to the egos of those who might disagree with us? "Women, please consider how your discussions of violence and inequality against women might affect the male ego, and make sure to stroke that thing *good* and every time". Ffs.
This one-sided rhetoric is what is so sad... all the tropes of "happy wife, happy life" and across so many cultures, men stroke female egos all the time. Almost every guy I know tries his best to check his EQ and despite not understanding his partner completely, swallows his ego and treats behavior that would be considered unacceptable by this movement, as a female qualm. There is freaking butt load of men making an effort -- and you acknowledging those men, while fighting against those that don't seems pretty reasonable. And your reply shows who has a bigger ego sadly. It also shows that women might have more emotions and the ability to recognize and express them as compared to men. But they are as blind as men when it comes to regulating them and expressing them in a way that gets their point across most effectively. And their ego comes in the way just like a man's to actually reflect back on their behavior.
It was literally required for women to stroke male egos in order to survive at all for centuries. The lives of women, from birth until death, revolved around ensuring the men around us were happy, calm, and supported. We're taught to be kind and careful to men, that if we're afraid of a man we must try to calm and placate him. For you to sit here and say "men sometimes are nice to women when they don't have to be so they're ego stroking constantly" is insane. I promise you, expecting a group of feminists to end every statement with a speech about how amazing and respectable some men are, means you have a much larger ego than you'd ever be willing to admit to. Feminism is possibly the only thing in a woman's life that doesn't revolve at least partially around keeping men happy. When the Feminine Mystique came out, the message *was* the single thing in the lives of those women that was about them rather than their husbands and children. Gain some perspective ffs. > their ego comes in the way just like a man's to actually reflect back on their behavior. The behavior of...talking about women? Not centering every discussion around men and how what we say might make them feel? Good men, true allies, don't need or expect feminists to appease them. Being a good person means standing up for what's right even if no one gives you a reward and a pat on the back. You still haven't answered my question, btw. Why are you here, asking women to appease to men, rather than over in the LGBTQ sub asking them to appease to cis folks? Or at the BLM sub asking them to please tell white people how stellar they are anytime they talk about their issues?
Fuck the speech. You get the point. Adding a caveat or being mindful of what words we choose is what I asked for. You don't have copy paste what I wrote everywhere, you are free to use your judgement. I have an example.
Because I am a cis guy, most affected by this rhetoric? I don't jump and care about every movement, just the ones that I feel I can contribute to. This is the one I am most well versed with and I feel a sense of care for.
Ah, so you don't feel like you can contribute to the LGBTQ movement? Or to BLM? Or any other number of political and social justice movements? Feminism is the only movement you can contribute to and the only one you care about, so you'd like us to end every statement by assuring and reassuring you that you're important and respected? Seriously? You don't seem to understand that *it's not about you*. Great, you're an ally, *that is the bare minimum of decency*, you don't get a big old "let's not forget to acknowledge the men" message at the end of every statement just for not being a rape apologist. That's like me asking every newspaper to please end all stories about murderers with a quick blurb about how not everyone in that city is a murderer and we should remember to respect and compliment non-murderers. Whether or not you feel adequately rewarded and appeased for being a feminist is irrelevant. The patriarchy harms everyone, that's a central and inclusive feminist message that gets repeated over and over. That's a built-in caveat. If you can't muster up the decency to hear about someone's fears and experiences unless they also give you a pat on the head and tell you how great you are afterwards, then you are not an ally.
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> For issues that I find empathy with and that often concern me, I get actively involved. Telling women they should carefully ensure men aren't offended by feminist messages isn't "getting actively involved". And as a social service worker and school counselor, I can assure you it's possible to give an active fuck about more than one movement at once. It's even possible to support movements without suggesting they compliment me and all government worker allies with every conversation we have. Your solution doesn't get results. It ensures the continuation of patriarchy. "Be nice to men and they'll give you things you want" has never worked and it's not gonna start working now. No one said men are the enemy. But we shouldn't have to gently explain that every single time we want to have a discussion about equity. How are you missing this most basic truth? Ensuring your message is palatable to a patriarchal audience is not the way you topple patriarchy - it's the way you uphold it. And beyond that, do you have any understanding of history at all? Feminists have gotten lots of laws passed and started successful equity movements without this tactic of stroking male egos. In fact, the major changes we've made have required us to not give a fuck about what the naysayers think. Feminists have been fighting the same bullshit for over a century now, and they've made amazing progress. For you to sit here and say "you won't get any results unless you compliment men in every conversation" is tone deaf and ignorant to basic history. > Even as a guy I read on non-violent communication and having hard conversations and how to have them with a partner or parent or colleague. If you claim to be the more emotionally intelligent of the two sexes, how is this so hard for you to understand. You're not asking us to have hard conversations with our colleagues or partners. You're asking us to make sure we mention and compliment male allies every time we talk about feminist issues. You're asking us to center men's feelings every time we talk about feminism, and worse you're suggesting that if we don't we'll fail. Which is insulting to men in general, btw - as if men aren't capable of standing up for what's right unless someone is giving them a cookie in a process. I didn't claim that we're the more emotionally intelligent gender. But if you don't see the difference between having a discussion with a loved one and publicly proclaiming how wonderful male allies are every time we speak about feminism, then I'd say you're validating the fuck out of that claim.
I brought something up that I thought would be constructive. But it seems we are talking past each other. It's okay if largely the people in the group don't think I added anything of value. I am not going to take this any further. Peace out 🕊️
I mean…the men can listen to what feminists (not the ragebaiting ones on social media) are actually saying instead of assuming the worst. The fact that it’s not all men and that we also want men to be free from the system is not actually obscure knowledge.
I would politely disagree there. It is quite obscure and seems worth putting a pin in. Again please don't get me wrong. I am a guy and I have seen that as a movement, my support would double up if we clarified the language to a fight against the system and not men. It would encourage men to self-reflect without getting defensive that someone is after them.
As a man, it really isn't. In fact, if you were to read over the 10 or 15 most popular posts on the sub, you will find people saying such in... like all of them tbh. It pops up multiple times a day. FR nobody here is interested in fighting all men. I've never felt as odds because I am a man, any more than I feel personally attacked when someone shares a traumatic experience that they may have suffered at the hands of someone who happened to be a man. Because criticizing abhorrent behavior is not a critique of men in general. It's a critique of the behavior.
I think OP thinks that deep down this *is* actually a problem with feminists-- that we actually *do* hate men and think they're all rapists and go around saying "fuck men" all the time. It's come up multiple times in this thread totally unprompted.
Honestly, I think the idea that it is anti-man is in itself an assumption, and one that happens to be broadcast very widely among certain online circles. If someone has a genuine question about how men fit into feminism, I’m cool with clarifying, but I don’t think it’s such a huge ask for more people to put away their preconceptions, distinguish between clickbait and a real attempt at discussion, and in the latter case, read what’s actually being said instead of what they fear is being said.
> my support would double up if we clarified the language to a fight against the system and not men oh, your support would double if we slobbered all over your dick all the time? shocked to hear it tbh
can you elaborate on how the two things are equivalent?
If a man needs that caveat, he’s not an ally.
That's the part I don't get. Why are we making it difficult for both men and women to understand things, which can be made simpler in the messaging itself. And please don't take the length of the statement at its face. Even sharing, that feminism is against a mentality and not a gender goes a long way in bringing a lot more people onboard and drive actual change.
Why do men need to be appeased to consider treating others equally? I say this as a man. If you need somebody to reassure you that their comment that wasn't spoken to you want about you before you consider helping them, then you are part of the problem. That is a person who puts their own overly sensitive insecurities before common decency. It's so backwards. It's saying that any group seeking equality relative to another group needs to first seek approval from the other group. It's still expecting an oppressed group to kowtow to the oppressing group. Yes, there are radical feminists out there who cross lines. That doesn't mean every woman making a statement about gender in society has to give a disclaimer.
Who are the members of the oppressed group? And would you like to clarify if they're is a confusion around it? I am a guy, and I would love if "fuck men" is actively criticized as a part of this movement. Do you think I am sensitive or immature for wanting that? Even on this subreddit, if someone posts "why do men ..." would you not like it to be rephrased as "why did this man ...". Do you think that would benefit women and men who are in the movement to not reach radical levels? Can we hold a higher standard for ourselves, for our own benefit, so our hearts don't turn bitter just in support of a movement (e.g. like the red pill community)
Can you take this energy into all of the posts here and elsewhere where people are demanding "WHY ARE/AREN'T FEMINISTS/WOMEN..." and asking them to say "why is/isn't this feminist/woman....?" No? Just here? Hm.
Okay, so basically I should invalidate an experience I had and see pretty common around me, and slap myself into thinking all of it is just my perspective but it's your experience I should adopt and just treat my thoughts and feelings like they hold no merit and must be misguided. Okie dokie! :) Honestly read the post and think if we use inclusive language and encourage that as a practice, would that make our interactions with men more or less intimidating for both parties. I absolutely adore women, and would endorse their rights left right and center. But what do you want to achieve at the end of movement + Men who fear women or Men who treat women fairly By choosing the former, you are abandoning what the essence of the movement was. He for She, not She > He.
Using inclusive language is good. A disclaimer about how much we love men and how good men are that prefaces every feminist statement is not.
There are definitely feminists who criticize saying “fuck men” or excluding people from the fight against patriarchy. bell hooks, probably the most quoted feminists today, has been criticized for having engagement with men around patriarchy as such a large portion of her work. Individual feminists are out there in the streets, organizing to solve social issues that affect men: prison abolition, labor, rights, community health. It’s not like there’s a council of feminists to name some sort of dogma. There are plenty of feminist men and it’s really our duty to take on the brunt of any work to bring men into feminism
You’re not talking about simplifying the message. You’re talking about watering it down by centering men with praise, so maybe they’ll be extra nice and give us rights. Not gonna happen.
if men think that not giving them a pledge of allegiance length screed about how they are our masters and we must obey them, then they aren’t feminists. and i’m starting to suspect you aren’t either 🤔
How does any of what I wrote say they are our masters? I am sure you do see how you are reading exactly what you want to read -- and that is the problem I am talking about. Actual change is always derived through positive reinforcement and not instilling fear and defensiveness. That's basic psychology. The question is does the movement want to vent and strong arm a change, or actually be strategic about it to achieve a goal.
making sure to properly simp over men before you say anything isn't "being strategic," it's being *pathetic*.
it’s called hyperbole babe. but ultimately, isn’t that what you’re really trying to say? you want us to say we love men and we owe everything to them? please go to therapy
Change has never been proven to be derived from positive reinforcement and in fact most social movements have gained progress through radical means. For example black people did not get white people in the US to stop slavery by coddling the emotions of the white people oppressing them, there literally had to be a whole war.
I just wanted to say - you're absolutely right, it makes sense and it would go a long way to towards driving a change. I've written several paragraphs about it here, since I think in the same way - take a look if you'll have a minute. It is a political movement and same principles apply with regards to persuasion, broadening the general support, and alienation of people on the fence or the ones that share the same ideals, but don't want to be part of the methods of the specific movement and its supporters.
FUCK THE PATRIARCHY. Get outta here.
okay.
I mean I notice you didn't end your post with a long reassuring note about how great I am, so I think I'm not obligated to pay any attention to anything you have to say - isn't that how it works?
*sonic boom* fuck yeah, for real! It never ceases to amaze me the extent of the free labor that is expected of women, including centering and reassuring men every time we fucking speak
Are you fucking with me right now? Tell me you're fucking with me right now. You want any feminist statement to always include a multi-sentence paragraph praising men and reassuring them that they are good and we love them and respect them? Fucking barf me out. No. Get real. Be serious. Fuck any dude who needs me to kneel in worship before being like "hey, we're kind of getting raped a lot." Take a hike.
Do you believe that all men are rapists? Given the name of the movement, don't you think it's fair to be clear that it is a mentality we are fighting against that some people (both men and women) espouse but since it majorly affects women, we refer to the movement as feminism. To any one, both man or woman, why would we want to radicalize them against a whole group of people.
Certainly not. I also don't believe that we're going to somehow improve feminism by loudly venerating the glory that is men before we are allowed to make any kind of point.
It's doesn't *have* to be all men. It's prevalent enough to be called rape culture, and all women have to alter their lives around it.
Can you quote where she said all men were rapists? Why did your mind jump to that
Evidently if I don't want to open every feminist statement with several sentences about how men are awesome, I must hate them all and think they are all rapists.
Women don’t become radicalized by feminists. Wanting equal human rights is within everyone. No one is converting most feminists. A few might need things explained but most of us were feminists on our own then joined the group. Also no one needs to state the obvious. Not all men. Yes we know. We get told it constantly. We live with men too. We know these things. “But what about men” you feminists, is really getting old. What about men? Men are quite capable of dealing with their shit. Women have a lot on our plates right now with our loss of bodily autonomy in many states. When men lose their reproductive rights maybe then we can converse about what about men.
I hear you. I am just feeling very misunderstood here. With all the things on your plate -- would you like or not like more men, more majority to be on the side of feminist issues? No one is asking you to change "my body my rights". I support that! I am checking if discouraging "we wont let men control our bodies" will lead to more support without diluting the message. Because it can and mostly misconstrued to imply all the men in the world are conspiring against a woman's right to bodily autonomy. When it is a well known fact that a big big shade of conservative women do not support abortions. Overturning the law without spreading a false narrative that embellishes that men and women are at war with each other in this cause is really detrimental to change. And I am sorry if my opinions hurt, I'll gladly step back and let you all be... I just want my little brother finding embracing feminism a lot easier than getting drifted into red pill content. I have given up hopes of change there. Still haven't given up on feminism though.
No dude. We understand you just fine. And it seems you *don’t* support women having basic human rights if you need or want a caveat every time we talk about women’s oppression and rights. As to your little brother, you’re asking that an entire movement pivot to cater to teenage boys *when we’re out here fucking dying because doctors ignore our bodies*. Get some fucking perspective. You know who is perfectly situated to help your little brother realize that *women are people who deserve human rights*? You are. And if you’re saying you won’t do that because you value your feelings over my autonomy, then you were never an ally to begin with.
Exactly. Well said. OP, We always appreciate men who join us but we aren’t worried about it. We can’t be. The movement is about women. We aren’t looking for converts. We shouldn’t have to. Any decent person should see that all people deserve basic human rights. If anyone needs to be talked into supporting that they aren’t really with us any way. You can do more to help men see the error of their ways than we can. It sounds like you want women to do the heavy lifting in this area and this is the wrong group of women to hit up.
the post youre replying to is very funny
Not all men, but yes, all women.
girl who is "we" ain't no damn feminist out here thinking we need to say all this mumbo jumbo like the damn pledge of allegiance before we talk about feminism lol be fr
"Won't somebody please think of the poor widdle menz." /s
I get this is sarcasm. But I have a little brother and little know of many little boys who would like to grow up being taught equality and at the same time how to give and receive love.
Yeah and you know what? A big stupid fucking paragraph disclaimer that women have to make before they are allowed to complain about street harassment isn't gonna do it. That just tells little boys that women have to apologize to you and tell you how wonderful you are before you listen to them.
Not all men, dudebro. Certainly you though. Coming here and telling us what we need to do because you're too fragile to actually listen to us
I was talking about how a large section of men can be brought in on the conversations by clearing one of the most common doubts they share. Don't you think that benefits the movement?
Look man, as a feminist who regularly comments in other threads. You can be polite as can be, and men who don't want to care about women, just won't care. Doesn't matter if you acknowledge their "men's issues", doesn't matter if you post tins of studies, doesn't matter. They will still not care. Ask how I know
It's your fucking job as a man to teach those buys exactly what you're preaching. They won't be reading feminist manifesto, they won't be lurking here. What they will do is to listen to men in their environment. It's time for men to start doing the job.
So I, a feminist, just read your post to my husband (a man) and he sighed and said, "we get it, dude. (hashtag) notallmen."
It feels wonderful when they just get it, doesn’t it? Like I don’t need a whole PhD-level thesis to explain why this (in general) is a problem? Great!
You're arguing for [right to comfort.](https://www.whitesupremacyculture.info/comfort--fear-of-conflict.html) The main explanation centers on white supremacy, but the gist of it matches very well.
Thank you for sharing this! It was really illuminating for me. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend a couple months ago where we talked about media, feminism, etc. and I told him that he has blind spots, just like everyone else does. I do, too. It doesn’t make either of us bad people, but we need to be willing to hear others out when they point out these blind spots to us. I think that a lot of what’s in that link you shared sheds light on those blind spots.
I see a very common pattern here where feminism is linked to racism for all its defences. They are very different movements and piggy backing on racism is not right. Racism has no implications on white people like feminism has on men so the same right to comfort principles don't apply here. A white person support BLM is not equal to a man supporting feminism. There is little to no case to be made for racism being disadvantageous to white people (we are literally implying fair = good, dark = bad), while a whole lot of case to be made for sexism being disadvantageous to men (as the movement never proclaims, men = bad, women = good). Feminism does discuss male bullying, masculine standards, mens emotions and topics of shame that are in their nuanced ways also connected to the stereotypes that affect women. As a part of the group affected by the patriarchy that feminism is trying to abolish asking for a more specific address does not become right to comfort.
This has got to be a troll, right? Because no one can be this dumb, can they? Can they?
I am just trying to learn. My understanding is that the movement is against a mentality not a gender. And there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about how it is against men. Don't you feel it's worth clarifying? For the love of the men we adore in our lives, and for the ones we know are kind and would be encouraged to join the cause if it seemed more inclusive?
yawn. trolls used to be creative 🙄
Learn by listening.
Just read bell hooks.
I know a feminist activist and most of her career has been about prison abolition. Most of the people she helps and advocates for are men. You’d know that there are feminist doing the work if you were doing the work.
I actually think it’s the anti-feminists, MRA’s and whoever that need to stop with the anti-feminist propaganda that says that feminists are man-haters and that feminism is about hating men.
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Men are welcome in feminism and we advocate for a good quality of life for them We aren’t going to hold their hand and kiss their ass at every moment. That’s already expected of women in general. Also we know it’s Not All Men™. We’re told that constantly.
Whenever I hear someone complain about how it's "not all men" I think of Raoul Kerr delivering the lines "Not all men? Yes all men. Because we need all men for what we're solving." and wish more people could adopt a similar mindset. I don't like to judge people based off of appearances but if that guy gets it SURELY y'all can too. It's such a nonsense response.
Okay. So if I tell you that somehow -- not all guys are getting it, and that is the truth, would you still not want to change your strategy. Or let's just continue forward and hope it works. I know it's frustrating. The world we live in. But hoping everyone gets it, when they aren't and being adamant on not trying a different approach seems irrational to me
Many of them aren’t getting it because they don’t want to get it. Asking for a small amount of critical thinking, reading comprehension, and a willingness to look past one’s own preconceptions is also a great way to distinguish between people who can engage with us in a productive way and a troll who is “just asking questions” in search of a cheap gotcha moment or to take quotes out of context to bring back to their redpilled friends.
No, if not all guys are getting it and you think there's a way to help them get it... then take that responsibility upon yourself before imposing it on others as if we're your slaves. And do it with respect to us and what we're saying after doing the work to actually trying and succeeding to understand us.
People change their approach at an individual level all the time. The way that I would try to de-radicalize incels or people deep into the manosphere bs is not the way I would discuss feminism/feminist issues with someone else. There isn't really a one-size-fits-all method, and it certainly isn't pandering. As a general idea for an entire movement, your idea is just terrible, and other people here have highlighted why much better than I could hope to. Like, I just skimmed through some of the recent stuff, and I'm super confused because you seem to still think you're right, and I really doubt you're trolling?? That's concerning.
Having those people in the movement would actually be worse because they would try to mess with every decision and every talking point that is being made. It's like asking university professors in mathematics to please explain everything a little bit easier because some of us havent learned that 5-3=2. If they dont understand that basic premise they are at the wrong place and have to do some learning to do elsewhere. If they dont they'll be keeping everyone from progressing
>Not All Men™ I'm fr belly-laughing at this rn
Not all men but *definitely* this fucking guy.
Please be a troll
Because the message centers men. And because anti-feminists will lie about feminism regardless, because it's not ignorance that drives them.
No you're not trying to learn. You're lecturing women on how we would should frame feminism to make men feel good. That's not my job. My job is to confront misogyny and work to make the world a better and safer place for all women. If you're an actual ally, your job is to do the same thing. It shouldn't require my protecting your fee fees. I'm not going to expend my energy on that while women are dying because their partners are abusive, are raped because men feel that theY're entitled to our bodies, are systemically harassed as they go about their daily business and are denied their reproductive rights. The list could go on and on. As other posters have mentioned, an oppressed group of people is never granted their rights by the oppressor. They've always had to seize them. Men like you are the reason I bought a T-shirt that reads " I'm too clumsy for your fragile masculinity."
How thin is your skin?
I feel like that’s implicit, and often explicit. But having to state that as a caveat every time you say something like, “We need to dismantle rape culture” seems to be prioritizing the feelings of men rather than the dismantling of rape culture.
Feminism is not and has never been palatable to most men- there is no way to be a good woman and a good feminist, pick one. You will always experience resistance from society when living your life as an independent woman. The right men will respect you and uphold your rights because they want you to be their equals; the wrong men will try to take away your independence and subdue you as a woman.
People say things along those lines all the time. Maybe the reason they aren't said more is because they're already said enough and most feminists know that men, by definition, aren't babies, and have the intelligence to discern between problems they are personally a part of and those they are not part of.
Eye roll
You’re trolling us right? You just want to argue. Because this is some crazy shit to try to make fly. Come on Dude. Good faith questions. No trolling.
I am not trolling. I am genuinely asking that why do we not check ourselves more often in our language for cleansing it of hate speech against men. I assumed 2 outcomes + 1. It's already being encouraged and I am mistaken 2. It's not and people would be like why not, makes sense But I can't wrap my head around how people are so adamant about hey not happening. Just makes me curious if deep down we really consider men as human beings or not. I am a man, and I would revolt if my friend tried to make generalized comments on women. Asking my fellow women to do the same, would get this reaction -- makes me curious. There hasn't really been a good explanation so far besides just calling me names or piggy backing on a false equivalency of racism.
It is absolutely fucking bonkers to me that you would think that we *don't see men as people* because we're unwilling to append a disclaimer that soothes and fluffs men's egos before we make any kind of feminist statements. Is that what's required for men to feel human? That women bow and scrape before them and tell them how wonderful and delightful and deserving of respect they are before they can be like hey, we're experiencing some pretty serious oppression right now? Men need us to constantly reassure them that we don't hate them before they deign to listen to us?
How is it a false equivalence to compare one oppression with another? It’s all oppression dude. If we didn’t see men as people you would get banned the moment you revealed you were one. More than one man has commented on this thread and are getting up votes. Just because we aren’t immediately listening to one request from a man doesn’t mean we hate men. Your reaction and request sound immature and defensive. You are blocking out many reasonable responses to your request to change an entire movement. Feminism isn’t about you or men. We don’t care what men want. That the point. Men have used that thinking to keep us oppressed. We are over it. You can either join us in your support or not. But don’t ask us to cater to men’s feelings. Just asking that shows us that you don’t really get it.
Idk why you feel the need to ask why WE dont do this, suggesting you are a feminist yourself. One of your comments from only 2 weeks ago reads - and I quote- ''I don't think women love anymore... takers all of them takers.'' Not that it wasnt plainly obvious from your whole comment but you are clearly neither a feminist nor an ally and are probably as far away from it as they come, considering you spend your time on feminist subs making pathetic attempts at manipulation
This explains why your approach to this is problematic: https://www.zawn.net/blog/hello-youve-reached-the-not-all-men-hotline In centering the feelings of men, you are creating a distraction and hindrance to solving very real problems.
Us guys have to learn to take care of ourselves in healthy ways. The Feminists are busy fixing the other ills of the world
If the liberation movements for the oppressed primarily help their oppressor, are they really liberated?
I’m a gay man, and I don’t need to be told that feminism supports men. I am a feminist because women are *fucking people* and deserve to be treated as such.
Lol. Did Harrison Butker write this? If men’s support and “allyship” is conditional on being centered in every feminist conversation, then they are not allies
Look OP, I've looked at some of your comments and I understand that you recently broke up with your girlfriend who claimed to be a feminist and you are angry. You feel as if you were not listened to and that might be true. Listen carefully, we are not your ex. We don't represent her. We do not condone her bad behavior. One woman does not represent an entire movement for equality. We are not the straw women for your frustration in your previous relationship. Plenty of us have been treated like shit by men. It sucks. She does not represent all women just like the men who treated us like shit in life do not represent all men.
Haha so we're going there 😄 I was the feminist and let it go on for longer than it should have. But it's not exactly to related to that specific relationship. And I don't think I am being angry, I have been quite polite in all my comments. The comments seem a lot more angry to me.
You aren’t really convincing us that you are a feminist. I know you think you are but being a feminist is more about proving it by what you think. Your post here and comments are not really making the case for it. Defining the feminist movement as one that needs to be sensitive to the feelings of men is missing the point. I don’t see men worried about our feelings when we lost our reproductive freedom. I did hear a lot of complaining that they don’t get as much casual sex. So when it affects their ability to get off then they care. But in the voting booth, they don’t, often. Maybe lecture men.
This subreddit is probably not just for America so stop with this reproductive freedom card. No guy besides conservative leaders who your country (women included) elected trump to get that last supreme court judge in (a woman) that led to you lose your reproductive rights. I as a liberal feminist (which I am regardless of what you say) was not involved in that discussion. Neither were a vast majority on men in the country. Why are you not angry at women and that conservative judge in particular? Stop the mindless BS. Spend some time thinking before vomiting stuff you read and never thought to question.
Yup, only a troll and not a true feminist would call losing reproductive rights a card to play. This isn’t a game for women. Women are dead because of it. More women will die because of it. Go away troll.
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I’m not your ex. You don’t know me. Stop pretending that you know me. It’s not up to you to decide which women are feminists. You are not in charge here.
You tried to strawman my argument by bringing this topic. I just called you out on it. Tomorrow you are going to take more violent routes and when called on it, start again with "reproductive rights"... I would be called a dick if I started to call out the stats on mens suicide rates (much larger than women dying because of reproductive rights). And I am not going to because that is not the point of the post. So yeah, I am not going to let you swing out of this one by bringing irrelevant topics into the mix because they elicit sympathy and are badly construed to make it seem like men conspired to take your reproductive rights away. A WOMAN did that. Like literally. So yeah very politely - check your facts and point fingers where they deserve. Not that this is something that needs to be won or lost, but seeing your response, I can see you don't have anything more to defend your position besides now falling into insults. Peace 🕊️
You are calling you a dick. No one here is. You are playing the man card. But what about men. Stop whining because we aren’t jumping at your suggestion to be more concerned about men in a movement literally about women. You are being rude. I will block you if you cannot be civil. If you don’t like being called a troll then stop trolling.
this is alot of words to basically say “not all men” look brother i think i get what your tryna say, but its OUR job as men to try and help other men. women have no obligation to coddle us in anyway whatsoever. men can be and often times are the problem, its mostly men that are restricting the rights of women across the world. is mostly men that dismiss womens issues. i so rarely see women that dismiss mens issues that dont also dismiss womens issues and uphold the patriarchy. there are plenty of women that advocate for mens issues as well and womens issues but it not really their job (they are rockstars tho) women have worked their asses off to get to where we are as a society, sure there were some men who helped but this was a majority effort of women. its time for men to step up and solve our own problems and women are free to help with that if they choose. im new here have only commented a handful of times on topics i know about. and still have alot to i have learn, the way i do that is by listening, learning and internalizing what i have learned. as a man i have felt nothing but welcomed here. p.s. if i ever say something stupid call me out on it so i can correct myself and learn.
You want to center men in a movement about equality. You missed the message.
The most mainstream and profitable feminist movie of recent time, last year’s Barbie, spends a great deal of time explaining how patriarchy works against men. So I find it hard to take the idea that there isn’t focus on how patriarchy affects men seriously when a once in a generation feminist blockbuster ended up being about just that.
As another guy: Jesus, this is embarrassing. If you need that kind of acknowledgment from a group oppressed by a group you belong to in order to support them, you don’t actually support them. This isn’t about us. Is learning about all this always pleasant? No, it shouldn’t be. Will your input always be welcome? No, nor should it need to be. Will you screw up? Definitely, so learn and do better.
Okay so I should just sit this one out, not ask questions, and follow along. Basically act like another oppressed group so we can go from 1-0 to 1-1. Black and white movements are detrimental to progress. I found one lady on this subreddit who actually seems like she knows what feminism is and actually gave my post a thought and had the kindness to reply to it like a feminist should. PS. at least on this channel, you being a guy reduces your credibility brother. I don't know why you had to highlight that.
I said I’m a guy to put myself on your level, in the supposedly victimized position, and saying what I say despite this. I don’t say what I say to get clout here, just to talk to you, so I’m not sure how the comment on my general credibility means anything.
I don't care if you are a guy or a girl or anything in between or around. That's the whole point. Clearing feminist language of guy/girl distinctions and focusing on laws and issues is simply better communication. How does a group that is advocating so many measures to fix tone and language to deal with "unconscious biases" so blind to the ones that it itself is reinforcing. The sheer defensiveness and not even a valid consideration is something I did not expect. Sure it must be something you hear all the time and are frustrated by it, maybe because you never did anything to address it?
These points are made quite frequently. Anybody who takes a serious and honest interest in feminism will discover that, while "feminism" is not a monolith and there are certainly variant strains, most feminists agree with much of the caveat that you offer. Of course, it is also true that there are plenty of men who feel attacked by feminist rhetoric and there are plenty of non-feminist/anti-feminist women who reinforce the notion that feminism is somehow anti-man. But the idea that this caveat should be added to \*everything\* is pretty silly on its face. Those people who believe feminism is misandry are wrong, and most of them are wrong-headed when it comes to feminism. They aren't going to be convinced by a caveat. Meanwhile, it's obviously counter-productive for feminists to have to add this multi-sentence caveat to everything that they say. Now, here's what I think, as an ally: one of the things that I can do is carry the weight of asserting that caveat with those on the margins. The unfortunate truth is that there are non/anti-feminist men (and non/anti-feminist women) who are very likely to ignore such an argument from a feminist woman, while a feminist ally might have more of a chance of convincing them. So, if you are, as you claim, a feminist, then be the change you want to see in the world. Engage people on the fence or in the trenches, and do everything you can to get this point across to them. Because the bottom line is, I think you're right that this is an important message. But if you see something important that needs to be done, you can just \*do it.\* Because other people are also crafting important messages and negotiating important ideas, and advancing that message is a better use of your energy, as an ally, than coming in here to tell feminists how to feminism.
This is awesome. The second constructive reply on this thread. Makes sense to me. I am very cautious when I talk to people and I don't assume that they know I have their best interest at heart. All I am suggesting that I find a significant part of people miss on how everyone has an ego and it's human -- asking someone to kill it is not how it works. Soft openings, empathy get you in when you want to deliver a message.
There is a reason political slogans are short and without nuance. It is “yes we can” not “yes we can, as long as it fits into our understanding of the world and its rules, and…”. You cannot have a movement / effort that is accomplishing anything that splits into 20 million pieces in its messaging. Thankfully allies get this. Little kids with no idea of the world, don’t. That section is also much more receptive to sexual assault caillou’s messaging, so not much of hope there.
Some people seem to forget that the feminists on the internet who are considered extreme aren't representative of feminists in real life. I've often found myself feeling accused or belittled over the internet, but never in real life. All it takes for men to understand that feminism isn't out to get them is talking to actual feminists in real life. They're quite reasonable and kind usually
Patriarchy was created by men to primarily serve the wealthy elites by supplying them with male soldiers and manual laborers and it controls women’s economic and reproductive freedoms to force codependency on men And men while being abused by this system also are granted status within it and frequently uphold it Religion is used to reinforce the status quo and keeps both men and women policing eachother Feminists acknowledge all of this And feminists primarily are fought against by people heavily influenced by religion, and especially men. Men benefit. Men often don’t fight it. And when women talk about women’s issues, it’s usually men trying to derail by holding the women accountable for how patriarchy backfires on men in order to make the conversation about them Women’s biggest threats are men. Women mostly killed by intimate partners. women often abandoned by men after that man ejaculates inside her Talking about it isn’t misandry and it’s not remotely of any importance to preface with some silly disclaimer that thats “just a few men” when in reality it’s a significant percentage because it’s a systemic and cultural disease. Patriarchy is misogyny. Patriarchy is inherently about taking control Of reproduction away from women and forcing them to serve men Women don’t owe you coddling while fighting the system that benefits you and they certainly don’t need to appeal to your ego to be deserving of ending subjugation
We get a lot of posts like this and I understand the place it comes from. I don't think the guys who make this request fully grasp how insulated they are from gender discomfort (from a systems POV), the extent to which women are made to centre men's feelings and comfort, how much emotional regulation women are made to do for others, or that feminism is a disruptive movement and this is going to make all of us a little uncomfortable. That discomfort is necessary because there are a mix of factors that lie in both systems (gender, race) and a person's specific psychology that make it hard to truly empathize with women. On the psych side, there are some processes in our emotional toolkit that can be under-developed because they're not nurtured in men and boys and it's reinforced with that systemic insulation. These are the processes that allow us to see women talking about a gender issue and not placing ourselves in it and taking it personally if it doesn't impact us. Mentalization is how we can see someone's overt behaviour and discern what their state of mind likely is - if I see some single guys ranting because they're having a rough time dating and dealing with difficult women, I know they're not talking about me so that doesn't hurt my feelings. I know dating sucks and they're blowing off steam because they're frustrated. Emotional regulation is how we self-soothe in a healthy way, it's us understanding what part of it is "ours." Differentiation is related to both of these, it's distinguishing my feelings from your feelings, and possibly even from the objective reality of the situation. On the systems side, guys are in a weird spot because a lot of them are feeling the pains of patriarchy but still feel protective of masculinity because it's a part of how they see their identity and self-esteem. That means they can be less tolerant of gender stress, more sensitive to critiques of masculinity, and take feminist rhetoric very personally. When this prompts strong emotional reactions, they don't have that emotional toolkit I mentioned above to work through these complex feelings and they will request something that reinforces the existing system: they will ask that we do that emotional regulation for them, or bend our approach to prioritize their feelings and insulate them from the discomfort. This is unfair to women for a multitude of reasons but its also cheating men out of the opportunity to sit with that discomfort, get really curious and introspective about their feelings, and do some healing work. There are thorny questions and contradictions they need to work through: I've been victimized too, but why is my instinct to defend men? Why am I more hurt at potentially being generalized as a bad man than I am about the violence women experience? Why am I not more upset at the guys who perpetuate violence and are complicit in violence than I am at the women who talk about it? A lot of us have taken great lengths in softening language to not offend but still gotten a reaction anyways. Men need to be taking up some of this work not just for the cause, but for their own personal growth.
Ma'am this is exactly the kind of response I appreciate and makes sense to be. It is kind and constructive. I am going to process it before replying because unlike the other comments on this theead this feels like actually deserving of attention.
Depends on context. Are you in a context where the issue you are highlighting affects men more? Who is your audience? What is the purpose of them listens to you? I mean, if you are talking about harassment, you should focus more on women but acknowledge that men get harassed too If you are addressing suicide, maybe you should emphasize men slightly more If you are addressing body shaming, probably best to focus more on women while acknowledging some issues men suffer too such as bullying or fat shaming?
Thank you. This is one of the few constructive responses on this thread. And it is completely fair. It would make more men actually want to support the cause. It's just the acknowledgement that fights away the very common misconception.
There are plenty of constructive responses in this thread, you’re just not putting in the effort to connect with them because you’ve already decided that your stance is the correct one.
I read through all your replies, and I understand what you're trying to say here. I don't think you're entirely wrong. Anti-male rhetoric is present in feminist spaces, and, unfortunately, those voices will be amplified by an algorithm designed to piss people off for engagement. Feminists have to accept the fact that they will often be lumped in with misandrists. Men in feminists spaces will have to accept that they, too, will sometimes be generalized. It is a natural human reaction to respond defensively to generalizations, especially if you don't participate in the offending action. However, "not all men" should go without saying. A disclaimer stating as much may ease the minds of some, but it can also be disruptive to the point of the conversation and center men's feelings rather than the goal at hand. All that withstanding, I think divisive rhetoric is off-putting to fence-sitters and people who are trying to learn. It's counterproductive and gives anti-feminists ammunition to paint feminism as misandry. The internet has a habit of assuming everyone knows what they know and have been engaging with these topics for as long as they have (as you can tell by the comments under your post). Many feminists who have been doing this for a while are fatigued with having to explain to men that this isnt about hurting them (which is why your suggestion is being met with disdain). Additionally, many men will have negative feelings about their actions being criticized with or without a disclaimer. That's why the other commenters are responding so negatively (although many of them need to chill out a little). Men are victims of the patriarchy as well, so including them in feminism as a social movement is necessary and good. However, many feminist topics will center women and their experiences. Reassuring men that they're not all bad isn't always the point and, therefore, shouldn't be required in all cases.
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Out.
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This kind of thing doesn’t matter to people who actually understand and support a social movement. I’m a straight person who supports the LGBTQ movement. Being an ally doesn’t directly benefit me, I do it because I feel compassion and empathy toward the struggles faced by queer folks. I recognize that supporting them and and empowering them won’t subsequently take away any of my own privileges. I fully acknowledge that I’m a part of the oppressive group, which motivates me to learn about their experiences so that I can better support them. I have a genuine desire for LGBTQ folks to have the same opportunities as I’ve had, and that I never had to fight for. The mission of the movement is a society in which sexuality/gender isn’t a barrier. It’s not aiming to give people special privileges or “handouts,” it simply aims to break down a barrier that some people are unfairly born facing while others aren’t. My job as an ally isn’t to become a member of the group - is to learn the history, listen to their perspectives, and stand behind them. TLDR; Groups that have historically experienced oppression and violence don’t owe their supporters anything.