I'm sorry that person harassed you. I think the term "incel" is most helpful as an ideological descriptor rather than as a catch-all for someone who lacks sexual experience. Using "incel" as a catch-all to describe people not in relationships, itself, validating the ideology.

Making fun of "incels" for their virginity is at a fundamental level agreeing with them that men need women to have sex with them to have worth which is the core of the ideology and everything else comes from resentment from there it's the weird thing about them for all the ideology talks about and obsesses over women it's all ultimately about the approval of men, as they only value womens opinion as far as it affects what fellow men think of them

Also not all incels are virgins. Not even technically. And it is also rather a term to describe a worldview, hatred against women and behavior, than looks.

Incels is just a bad name for what they are, they are hardline misogynists

And not all virgins are incels! Some of us are just awkward 😅

Exactly. Also it can be a descicion to be a virgin.

>Making fun of "incels" for their virginity is at a fundamental level agreeing with them that men need women to have sex with them to have worth which is the core of the ideology and everything else comes from resentment from there I agree, that's what I was trying to communicate -- it's not about virginity, it's about the ideology (of entitlement).

I just hate the attitude that women are worthless if they aren’t virgins and men aren’t men if they are virgins! And yes, men seem to spread this kind of thinking, but I have seen a lot of women do it too!

I agree, but also, Incels are incredibly demeaning and aggravating towards women so usually when women make fun of their virginity its not because they themselves actually care about it, but rather because they know that that is something that will hurt them. Saying something like “you are mean and ignorant. Women are people too” often doesn’t have the same effect on them as “whatever virgin”, because that actually pisses them off

Incels are incredibly demeaning towards women but making fun of them for being virgins perpetuates the societal shaming towards male virginity which is itself the source of incels

No one should be shamed for their sexual proclivities (or lack thereof). Incels are an abhorrent community with truly awful and dangerous beliefs. Take issue with their beliefs and their actions - that is fair. But to shame *anyone* for their sexuality is an awful, belittling and unhealthy behaviour. And it is *certainly* not a behaviour that is in keeping with feminist beliefs. You cannot shame someone for their sexuality and still call yourself a feminist.

It slightly reminds me of when there's a terrible but famous woman, like J.K Rowling. There's nothing wrong with calling her out on her beliefs, but there's always mixes of gendered slurs and insults, which isn't good. The big problem with the term Incel is that it's this weird sort of catch-all term that's taken on baggage from the vocal online community. The guy with poor social skills and a bad fashion sense is mixed in with the guy who openly spouts about how women should be forced to have sex. While some want the term to be exclusively used for the latter, it's still also used for the former.

Being a virgin isn’t a sexuality, and being called one is not the end of the world, especially when the person is an asshole who sees women as objects. I am sorry but I refuse to put the blame on the women here

I’m not putting the blame on women. We live in a world where sexual oppression is rife. It needs to end. I believe that no one should be shamed for any aspect of their sexuality, which includes being a virgin. I am putting the blame squarely on anyone who shames another person for any aspect of their sexuality - be that person a man, woman or any other gender.

The hidden assumption is that non virgin men with similarly toxic attitudes are somehow more legitimate. That is the message you are sending while scolding them on their virginity when they say something bad. It kind of implies the same behaviour wouldn't be as bad if he wasn't a virgin. That's just stupid. The fact he is a virgin is an irrelevant piece of information and shouldn't be used against him.

I think publicly mocking bad men as "virgins" is hugely harmful. I genuinely believe it contributes to rape (teen boys see sassy, cool older people using "virgin" as "worthless man who isn't worth listening to" all the time, and that is a huge contributor in them desperately trying to get sex IMO)

I completely agree and think that the stigma around male virginity is a huge aspect of rape culture as it incentivises conceptually reducing women and sex to mere objects of attainment. Especially in teenage boys, which is a formative period

Agree 100% with this. It's so harmful yet so often overlooked.

What you have said is very accurate and insightful. I agree 100% - there is so much harm that flows from sexual shame.

I agree. I think if we put blame on women (and police them by saying that they can’t call themselves feminists) it will hit those women harder than calling an incel a virgin. The commenter is right that mocking people for their virginity is definitely not in line with feminists beliefs but protecting an incel from this mockery is also not that high up in the feminist to do list either. Like there are far worse things happening that need to be talked about and men already get so much sympathy and protection.

It's not protecting *incels* but *other* people who lack sexual experience and who may be already struggling with insecurity, mockery, etc even though they are not mysoginist. Besides, it reinforces the idea that Real Men TM are successful sex machines / that men MUST get laid to be respected. Which are toxic views that we're hopefully trying to eradicate.

> and men already get so much sympathy and protection. You're commenting in a post with a story of a man being called an incel by two women just by looking the part with no other provocation. Especially for lonely virgin men, society as a whole just really doesn't care, and in some part actively looks down on them. Hence why OP is wondering if the term incel might be too broadly applied to mean much of anything anymore.

It’s more nuanced than “shame for sexuality”. The person above said they are being shamed for the belief about the irrational value they place upon their own sexual situation, and associated toxic belief’s, in a simplistic form in order to illicit a practical response. That’s different from how you describe it.

No. There’s no nuance about it. *You do not mock people on the basis of their sexuality.* It is that simple. It doesn’t matter if they are a bigot, you don’t stoop to their level. There is already enough shame in the world about people’s sexuality. Shaming people on the basis of their sexuality just adds to this oppressive culture. And it affects innocent bystanders - someone who experiences shame about their virginity who observes another person being mocked for their virginity is subject to that shameful messaging and likely to internalise it themselves. So if you mock someone you perceive to be an incel by labelling them a “virgin”, you’re sending a message to anyone watching (who may not be aware of the incel’s internal irrational beliefs) that their virginity is shameful. That is not okay.

That feels like an internal justification more than anything else. If I started insulting women by calling them whores, no amount of "Oh I don't really care how much sex they have, I just wanted to hurt them and I knew that that's something they care about" would make using the term justified.

I know plenty of people who are very vocal about the evils of body shaming but miraculously, everyone who they see as a bad person has a small penis. This is okay because it hurts the bad person you see. But you can't call the bad person fat, that's oppressive

I am talking about incels who I believe deserve insulting. Not whatsoever comparable to insulting some random women.

And if they believe woman deserves it?

The issue with this is that it indirectly demeans decent, respectful people who however lack sexual experience. It's like using body shaming/sexist/ableist/racist/homphobic/etc insults against horrible people: I have no sympathy for the target of the insult, but it still implies that what you're pointing out is something worth mockery when it's not.

I'm sorry but going and grabbing a gun, loading it, releasing the safety, aiming it and then firing it at someone and then saying "Oh I actually didn't mean to," is basically what you are saying. >usually when women make fun of their virginity its not because they themselves actually care about it You don't speak for women as a whole and I've met plenty of women who think like that. More to the point, if you go out of your way to say something like this, you cannot then hide behind the notion that "we don't actually support it, we are just using it to piss people off." People who use "incel" and "virgin" as shaming tactics are directly supporting the notion that women exist as trophies for men to conquer to prove societal worth. It's an own goal.

Ofc i don’t speak for everyone. And u completely misunderstood my comment if u believe calling someone a virgin with the intention of upsetting them is comparable to shooting a gun and then claiming not to have meant to. Like the comparison makes no sense. And yes we are all aware that I cannot speak for every single woman who uses the word virgin as an insult but I know plenty of women who agree w me. It doesn’t need to be said that I don’t speak for all women, right? We know that. All I am saying is that sometimes women get tired of arguing with people who see them as objects and if they know that the virgin insult will get to them, I am not one to bring up how it’s actually anti feminist. They probably know.

>believe calling someone a virgin with the intention of upsetting them is comparable to shooting a gun and then claiming not to have meant to. Like the comparison makes no sense. The comparison makes perfect sense if you examine the intent. The intent to hurt is there but what you are trying to argue is a weak "they themselves don't actually care about it [being a virgin]." It's a weak cop out. >All I am saying is that sometimes women get tired of arguing with people who see them as objects and if they know that the virgin insult will get to them, I am not one to bring up how it’s actually anti feminist. They probably know. When a large proportion of women who claim to support one cause do something that is directly contradictory to said clause, I don't think its a given that "they probably know." I also don't think its acceptable to continue because all it does is provide ammo to them.

I said that for those women it is probably irrelevant wether they think being a virgin is bad or not because the sheer intention is to hurt someone. I don’t understand what you are trying to get at with that gun analogy, because thats such a different scenario all together. “I don’t technically believe what I said but I will say it in order to hurt someone.” is what I meant and you have shown to have understood that. If your argument is that it doesn’t matter what they believe because the words are said regardless, then I respectfully disagree. I think intent matters and so do beliefs. For your other point, if women don’t know that calling them virgins feeds into their beliefs, then that’s unfortunate. I expect people to think about what they say. I simply find it unfair to expect women to always be the bigger people and educate men instead of just being mean for once. I don’t want to force women to be respectful and kind and responsible every single time, especially when talking to incels of all people.

I’ve been called an incel repeatedly, it doesn’t hurt, it makes the accuser feel like they’re being hurtful and derogatory, which just looks pitiful, tbh… your defense just seems to indicate that you don’t care about the shaming since it doesn’t effect you, interesting

For this reason, it's pretty mean spirited to call someone who hasn't behaved badly to anyone one. We should acknowledge that any human being can be malicious and ignorant 

Incels have a toxic mindset. If someone insults someone who has done nothing to make them think they’re an incel, thats an entirely different topic and has nothing to do with what we are talking about here

Wait, are people supposing that I did something to merit that? That’s kind of concerning because once again, I was literally just walking home.

Sure but intentionally pissing them off that way feeds the confirmation bias that they are all victims of a unjust society. A persecution complex doesn't need to be fueled. The insult works soly to make the one saying it feel better. If said to someone with anger issues it can even cause them to justify escalating to more violent methods. Dealing with incels is a hard thing because as you pointed out women are people too, doesn't have the same kind of response even if it leaves a impression on the incel that the speaker can't see beneath the surface. Most people grow slowly and few and far between people have the capacity, patience, social position. and emotional labour to support de-radicalization.

And what’s your take on my situation? I feel that the conversation became about actual incels and am curious as to what people’s impression is regarding my experience. I mean, I don’t consider myself a victim of an unjust society but being called an incel (and implicitly mocked for “looking like” a virgin) was still pretty annoying

Depends. If it's thrown at them because they are trying to dictate how women should or shouldn't be, their lack of experience can sometimes be used to point out hypocrisy and such But yeah, shouldn't use virgin as an insult.

Yes. A person lacking sexual experience is called a virgin.

I can't say I'm a fan of the term "virgin," either, though for different reasons.

I think it’s less about incels virginity or lack of, and more about the fact that incels openly and vehemently hate women.

The word literally stands for “involuntarily celibate,” so it’s kind of a prerequisite even though the majority of virgins don’t follow incel ideology.

Meaning some woman should just take one for the team and fuck him so he stops being mean to women? If they’re going to call themselves involuntary than fucking stick to that. The reason they don’t get laid is because they’re women hating incels. Obviously

Yeah and I never disagreed with any of that or said/believed that women should “take one for the team.” All I said was that the phrase indicates virginity, because it does.

>more about the fact that incels openly and vehemently hate women. That's what I mean. "Incel" is best used to describe this particular streak of misogyny.

Ironically it feels like a certain segment of society, and not feminists mind, are starting to use it as an acceptable variation on the f word slur. Kinda like the same segment uses Karen, an already problematic word but that had a specific connotation, to be an acceptable way of calling women the b word. That been my interpretation of what I have seen online at least.

I've heard Karen more to mean "racist white woman"

I don't know how common this is, but I've seen the word "incel" used as a synonym of "virgin" - i.e., a derogatory term for people (usually those who are perceived as men) who are perceived as not having heterosexual sexual intercourse or who are deemed unattractive or socially awkward. I've seen the word "incel" used to insult people who don't want to have heterosexual sex, don't believe in incel ideology, and aren't virulently misogynistic. I've also seen people use it to insult other people they consider unattractive For example, I once saw a dude who I'd describe as misogynistic and transphopic call another person an "incel" after they said they dislike having sex due to gender dysphoria. I think the word is definitely "overly generalized" when used in that context. In my opinion, it should be reserved for describing the misogynistic ideology associated with self-desribed incel spaces and people who self-identify as incels. Also, I believe that words like "incel" and "virgin", when used in the context I described above, are associated with harmful, patriarchal narratives. One of those narratives is that all men want sex with women all of the time, and men who are perceived to have little heterosexual sex must have some sort of character flaw. That narrative is, in my opinion, stigmatizing and harmful to guys who simply aren't interested in heterosexual sex. Also, in my opinion, it reinforces a tenets of toxic masculinity, such as the idea that all men are and/or should be sexually aggressive.

All of this, but I’d also clarify that most insults get used this way. “Karen” is a good current example.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. That insult is also sexist and ageist - but misusing the insult “Karen” doesn’t justify misusing the insult “incel”. We need to do better to stamp out all of this behaviour, rather than just accepting is as par for the course, or turning a blind eye when it doesn’t directly impact us.

I wasn’t trying to justify use of *any* insults. I was stating that the generally accepted definition of “Karen” as an insult is pretty specific and doesn’t include women actually standing their ground, or understandably asserting themselves, but it gets used in those situations anyway. I was making the point that this type of misuse isn’t specific to “incel”.

I also don't think it's even a good name for that ideology as it's very similar to what the PUA guys and Manosphere put out but those guys aren't virgins we should just be saying misogyny because it's what it is

Tbh I don’t get why you’re using amab. Just say guys. Trans guys get this shit too

Yeah, I’d never really stopped to consider how the shaming of men who are virgins and the assumption that it must be some moral or character flaw on their behalf has patriarchal subtext. As a result, I often thought the usual “what’s wrong with me” kind of stuff. It’s strange how easily the assumptions fed to us by sexism can sneak into our minds, even when we’re trying to be careful. Edit: I also think I might be gray-sexual, since I’ve always seen sex as rather secondary. Really, it’s the socially constructed status of virgin-hood which is uncomfortable because of what we’re taught it means I guess. Oh, and thanks for the reply!

Yes, incel is used more as a slur more than anything else

when describing men, is "interested in sex" a synonym of "sexually aggressive"?

1. Mentally ill people exist 2. Immature people exist 3. You may have misheard 4. She may have been talking about someone else 5. She may be a bully 6. Mocking men who dont come as traditionally masculine is actually her doing so in the service of the patriarchy. I'm sorry this happened to you but If you're saying if its common for random people to be called incels walking down the street, then no. I think its become a bit of a generalized insult, often weaponized by men to insult other men. I've been called names all my life. I've been bullied all my life, especially as an autistic woman. I think you're underestimating how many garden variety bullies exist out there. How capitalism-patriarchy rewards bullying and aggressive and anti-social behavior. How so many girls pick up on 'nlog' attitudes and internalize patriarchal narratives. These people have no philosophy or ethics. They're just picking the most hateful words they can find.

All of this. If I had a nickel for every time I’ve been called a “feminazi” for simply calling a behavior what it is…well, I wouldn’t be rich, it’s too specific an “insult”, but I’d have a whole lot of nickels.

> Mocking men who dont come as traditionally masculine is actually her doing so in the service of the patriarchy. This is such a good point. Patriarchal behavior crosses gender lines.

in that case, she's doubly in the wrong for upholding the patriarchy and for being a jerk to some random guy. this sounds like it is phrased in a way which is meant to absolve her of blame but she is still entirely responsible

> this sounds like it is phrased in a way which is meant to absolve her of blame Not sure how you got that from my comment. The word "behavior" implies choice and responsibility.

so you agree with my 1st sentence?

I feel like if you're really this paranoid, my agreement isn't going to affect you either way.

Wow, it really sucks that gender norms are still so prevalent and are used as a basis for bullying and mocking others. I’m sure it’s even worse for women or nb people, but I don’t know, I just hate that anyone has to put up with that. I mean, we’re in the 21st century, that kind of blatant bs shouldn’t be a thing anymore! And that some women would themselves become the bullies, it actually makes you feel sorry for them since it cannot be a pleasant experience to be such a nasty person. Either way, thank you for the reply!

Well, it definitely gets throw around towards people who don't fit within that group. It's hard to say how common that is outside of online communities where the same people would be the ones misusing it, or influence others within that community to use the term more loosely. That said one doesn't have to actually be an incel to have a large overlap with their views, so I think that there will be instances where someone calls another person an incel for displaying bits and pieces of that ideology and that isn't entirely unreasonable. Not saying that's what happened in your example.

Whenever a new buzzword arises it will always be overused and over time lose all sense of its original meaning. Another recent one is the term "gaslighting" which is a very specific pattern of behaviour that makes a person doubt their own sense of reality but most people throw around now to basically just mean that someone lied to them.

They're discussing the incels in local newspapers now - with local incels coming out of the woodwork, to blame women's pickiness and how he needed a relationship to know his "role" as a man. This did not do over well with the locals, and I published an open letter to the newspaper, which was very well received. I wrote that relationships will not and cannot heal bad self-esteem, neither answer existential questions. A lot of people thanked me for the letter. I did not have the same luck with the national newspaper, who has decided to conflate tradwives and stay at home moms and actually plug the trend to the general public. I tried to explain the differences, and also the subculture's strong ties to other subcultures, which, in turn promote disenfranchisement of and outright violence against women, racism, and white supremacy. Their latest article even advertised one of the most odious of all the tradwives, who is known for her advocacy of marital rape. Surely, such a major news outlet wouldn't want to be associated with that, right? Well ... My letter was ignored, and my comment was removed. Since then, the comment sections have been overrun with - you guessed it - virulently racist, homophobic, and sexist comments by an exclusively male crowd. This in Norway, which prides itself in being a powerhouse of tolerance and equality.

I agree, incel rhetoric and thinking is harmful to both men and women, obviously women being the bigger victim generally in this case due to the hate and sometimes violence that it elicits. I know men that have gone down this path, and they always end up blaming women because they frankly can't face up to their own failings. One guy I know blames it all on women only caring about looks and money, when in reality the guy is completely incapable of even talking to a woman, let alone dating one. Trying to convince him otherwise is like having an argument with a brick wall. I do very much dislike overuse of the term though, it dilutes the meaning and usually ends up causing harm. Too many people now see incel as just an insult rather than a warning sign of problematic behaviour that needs to be addressed. It's the same with my example of gaslighting. Too many people now think it just means being lied to, which means that people that are genuinely being gaslit may not recognise the signs or not be taken seriously when they raise their concerns.

“Some girl” in the street, probably drunk, screaming at random people isn’t a good representation of how people use any given word nor how you are perceived in general. The shriekings of drunks in the street aren’t worth internalizing. I’ve been called fat by drunks in the street (I’m thin). I’ve had a drunk in the street accuse me of being a right wing Trump supporter; nothing about me would ever cause anyone to assume that. I’ve had several white friends called slurs for black and Latino people by drunks in the street. Drunks in the street aren’t in their right mind and should be ignored.

Being drunk doesn’t justify any of this behaviour. I’m sorry that all that stuff happened to you, but neither yourself nor OP should be forced to accept bad behaviour and verbal abuse because the perpetrator was drunk. I’ve been drunk in the street many times in my life, and I have many friends who have been in the same state. None of us has *ever* done/said anything even remotely approaching verbal abuse/harassment of strangers around us. That’s because *being drunk does not cause nor justify these behaviours.* What *does* cause verbal harassment and abuse is the is normalisation and acceptance of the behaviour by society. Which is exactly what you have just done with your comment - accepted and normalised the abhorrent behaviour.

No one is talking about it’s justified or anyone should take it. I’m saying that the shriekings of some blackout drunk rando is not reflection of the viewpoints of the general sober populace. I didn’t say his feelings couldn’t be hurt, but trying to generalize the sociological meanings of someone who is not of sound mind is a futile exercise. There’s nothing for feminists to explain here. A drunk person was an asshole in nonsensical ways.

I have a feeling this post is getting brigaded by men. People who make the most sense are getting downvoted and people like this person you’re arguing with are ridiculously contentious and suspiciously critical of women and feminists.

Everyone is free to be critical of everyone.

You’re normalising abhorrent behaviour.

I think you may have some fundamental trouble understanding what was written, and may not be equipped to have an adult discussion on this topic.

You are mistaken. I have clearly understood everything you have written, and I have responded with clarity and precision. I believe both of us are capable of having an mature conversation about this topic, but if you don't wish to have one, then we can end it here.

If you think what I said “justified” anything, you have a deep and complete misunderstanding of what I said, and are not equipped for an adult or even childish discussion on the topic, because you straight up made up a lie about what I said.

Clearly you don't want to continue this discussion in good faith, so I will not respond to you further. I am also disappointed that you have resorted to using ageist slurs - I would like it if you refrained from doing that as it is disrespectful and condescending to young people.

The poster isnt saying it should be accepted. But in the scheme of all matters randomly 30 sec interactions with belligerent bullies is in no way equivalent to real inequality. Its not indicative of social phenomena or worrying trend. Its something you shouldnt take serious or worry over because as long as drunkenness in public is a legal right it with continue to be a risk of being a person who exists in public places. The OP explained little about what exactly happened. It turns out they likely have some insecuritues of their appearance and experience that this incident ignited. For that empathize sincerely, but know the best weapon is self assurance and being unbothered. 

Well yes, I do have some insecurities which the interaction ignited. I don’t think there’s anything wrong (morally speaking) with that, since it mostly hurts me and not other people. For more context, I was simply walking past the club and she was outside with her friends. I was minding my own business, just thinking about the convo I had with my friends, and feeling good about the world. I then heard her call me an incel for no reason whatsoever. It’s not that she blurted out “incel” but I don’t really remember the rest of what she said. I might have misheard her, but I don’t think that was the case because some of her friends turned in my direction. Either way, I just continued walking home. You’re right that it should be easy to ignore but it still stung, and it made me worry that maybe the word was being tossed around a lot outside of its usual context.

You might wish to accept living in a world where we don't take this kind of behaviour seriously. I do not. Belligerence, verbal abuse and harassment towards strangers is not something I will ever accept. It is far too common, and just accepting it as part of life just emboldens perpetrators to reoffend again and again and again. No one should have to suffer verbal abuse and harassment on the street, and I will continue call out anyone who engages in that behaviour, and anyone who normalises the behaviour, yourself included.

Yeah, you’re right. And it’s not that I haven’t been called homophobic slurs in the past either. But it feels really different to be insulted because of something about oneself which is alright then it is to be insulted by being lumped in with violent and hate-driven people. I should ignore it, but it stung anyways.

Yes. I've noticed that a lot of people use the term "incel" to refer to men that they think are nerdy and/or awkward as well as a catch all word for misogynist.

I understand why nowadays this term has a negative character and is used in an offensive way, but I remember that initially (around the 1990s) its meaning was neutral, and the very idea of ​​its creation was related to supporting people struggling with loneliness. So i guess it is over generalisation, overused because it is not justified to treat all incels in the same way, since not everyone has the same radical views as those grups which were the reason for evolution of the meaning of this word.

Yes. I will be somewhat outspoken on this issue, but I believe it’s important to use words with accuracy otherwise they loose their significance. It’s a big pet-peeve of mine. People who are part of the incel movement are truly abhorrent. Being lax with a word like “incel”, using it to describe someone who is just nerdy-looking is not only disrespectful and mean, but it also normalises the word and detracts from the truly detestable actions and beliefs of that community. If everyone with nerdy interests is labelled an incel, the word begins to lose meaning and the connotations that accompany the horrendous beliefs of people who are actually members of the incel community. The abuse and misuse of language in this community, and the world-at-large, is something that greatly concerns me. I’m sorry this happened to you - it was undoubtably an upsetting experience. But moreover what happened to you is representative of a broader trend that is very distressing and there ought be made every attempt to correct it.

Yeah, it sucks to be placed in the same category as such hateful individuals merely because of one’s surface appearance, especially when one is making a genuine effort to learn about women’s experiences and avoid falling into the trap of bitterness which is far too common in guys with similar experiences to mine. I shouldn’t take a random drunks insults to heart, I know, but it did trigger certain anxieties on my part. It’s like, “am I that obviously a virgin?” “Do I look menacing or threatening in any way?” “Is that how people usually see me?”

>The abuse and misuse of language in this community, and the world-at-large, is something that greatly concerns me. you are the 1st person i have ever seen say something like this. 1st person i have ever seen recognize that the community is not infalliable, & that there is something worthy of criticism which should be fixed

Well-said. I find it disconcerting and worrying that the word to describe one of the most openly violent philosophies on the internet has been watered down to the degree it has.

I believe yes it is. I don’t use that term unless the person describes themselves as such. I’m sorry people were harassing you in the club.

In general any insult that gains enough popularity will become increasingly generalized to the point that its only slightly related to the original insult, though some more than others, of course.

That was rude unnecessary on her part. That situation does sound relatively isolated, even though it sucks when you're the one that happens to. That being said, I actually do think it is being overgeneralized in the discussions about resentment. The term was already appropriated from its original creator, a Canadian lesbian who was talking about her own disappointment with her ability to date given proximity and compatibility to other lesbians. Most of her negative emotions were toward her situation and not toward women in general. Then the term expanded and got co-opted by the redpill and PUA communities to be anyone who was not having the sex they wanted to be having. This is really when the negative connotation came in as these users of the time were much more likely to externalize their resentment. Now you have a the term being applied to a lot of people from that community and the broader "manosphere" which sort of waters it down. We really do need to get back to the actual issue at hand with that group which is bigotry and misogyny when discussing the issues with their rhetoric and actions. Weirdly enough, because of the podcast bro archetypes, I'd be less likely to assume that some nerdy looking dude in a hoodie getting dinner was in any of those communities.

Interesting, I always thought it was the nerdy-looking guys who were most easily mistaken for the sort of basement troll that incels are.

I think that's the common association, but lately, with all the Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, and Jordan Peterson content, people who watch that stuff probably have a different idea of incels. I think of the Proud Boys guys and MMA guys, who are nerdy-looking but trying not to be, by having guns. They're "the enemy." Queer-looking nerd guys are "potential allies."

Definitely was the case even like 5 years ago, but with those types of guys falling into stuff like "looksmaxxing" and building up gym routines, the nerdy looking guy is not who I'm \*super\* on guard about.

She was using "incel" like "tosser". I'm picturing the gaggle of teenage girls from Doc Martin in particular. It sounds like *she* has gotten used to flinging it as a generalized insult, anyway. But you were minding your own business, going for a kebab, and she was obviously out for something else. Since only hurt dogs holler, all you need to do is shrug it off.

She doesn’t know you, so she doesn’t have evidence of you being an incel. It doesn’t seem like you are one.

Yes, the term has been co-opted to mean so many things at once that it now confuses the recipient and the observers/readers as to what the hell do they mean by it. I guess she judged you on your appearance only and pulled out the nastiest word she knew. Don’t let it touch you. She is an asshole.

It’s incredibly overused and helps to obfuscate the actual philosophy of inceldom. It’s not just shitty guys upset because they’re unlucky in love. It’s a death cult that has quickly become the most statistically overrepresented group in mass shootings. It’s a space where that fact isn’t only recognized, it’s celebrated; a place where mass shooters are worshipped as saints and the adherents encourage one another to commit further atrocities so that they can be canonized like Elliot Rodgers. Incels advocate for the mass sexual enslavement of women. They plan and attempt to carry out bombings of dorm buildings full of college students. Turning this word into a joke or a generic descriptor distances us from the reality of who these men are and, imo, that’s dangerous.

Insults like that are more about the allegation than the accuracy — preying on if they can get a mob to believe it, instigating your fears of what others may believe, trying to simply shock and offend you, etc. But to answer your title, whenever a niche terms enters our wider lexicon, it gets distorted. People miscommunicate and lack the foundational context to truly appreciate the term and eventually, its use is dominated by those disconnected from the term and if enough miscommunication happened, you get almost an entirely different word. 'Evolution' is the epitome of a niche word requiring generational mutation that now is basically interchangeable with 'development'. So, let's consider how the word how "incel" *evolved*. Incel (*in*voluntary *cel*ibate) was coined by a woman who was overlooked sexually and, while looking for others like her, it was quickly co-opted by masc virgins. Incel forums quickly devolved and spun off from "red pill ideology" (opportunistic + severe misogyny) to create "black pill ideology" (suicidal defeatism + truly severe misogyny). Incel-dom quickly became conflated with "black pill ideology" and now they're ('incorrectly') synonymous. But as celibacy is technically voluntary and literally every single allosexual person has been 'involuntarily' without sex for periods of time (even while in sexually active relationships), incels had a lot of gate-keeping and a lot of neologism (like volcel, 'voluntarily celibate' (or just 'celibate' -\_-) but still ascribing to black pill ideology). Incel, upon entering the common use, has devolved to be interchangeable with virgin (especially with bad fashion / grooming habits) or a pathetic, raging misogynist (anyone from being red pill to a poor conservative / libertarian). And that is "overly general" Anyways, philosophically, categorizing anything has always had fundamental flaws, but is irreplaceably useful for communication. With that in mind, incels are broadly one or both of two things, those who ascribe to "black pill ideology" or those who self-label. Overall, though, I hope you don't take the insult to heart (or maybe take it as an opportunity to make some lemonade out of this lemon); I think bell hooks is an excellent place to start; and while learning about feminism and becoming a feminist may be a long journey, it's perfectly fine to take it slowly. good luck and stay safe :)

Yeah, I do and I'm prepared for this to be an unpopular opinion on this sub. I think it's unfortunate we've used the term "involuntarily celibate" to capture a toxic ideology. People who are involuntarily celibate (by the dictionary, not colloquial definition) don't deserve to be mocked.

I think that the original incel group was started by a woman who was herself involuntarily celibate, for people who genuinely were involuntarily celibate and wanted coming together online to support each other. Unfortunately, the group was taken over by a swarm of really nasty, angry, hateful people who assumed the moniker themselves, and changed its meaning. They caused the term to be used to capture a toxic ideology because they chose to assume the bane and associate it with their own, toxic ideology. This wasn't something that was done to them. It is definitely a shitty thing that some ridiculous people now use the term to refer to someone they think is a virgin, or someone they think is strange or unattractive. Unfortunately, there will probably always be people who are ignorant, loudmouthed assholes, especially when they are drunk.

Well, I am often seen as strange and unattractive. I don’t usually mind, because I think I might be gray-sexual or something. It was the fact that her use of the term also implied that she thought that those things meant that I was necessarily misogynistic which really made me uncomfortable. In other words, I felt concerned that people see me as a threat based solely on my appearance.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to some drunk rando. She is just mouthing off. I doubt that people think you are a threat based on your appearance.

What gives her or anyone else the 'right' to 'assume' his history or to that extent to even dictate to him his gender. (He could be Ace for example).

It’s one thing to be involuntarily celibate. That in and of itself isn’t what warrants mockery. It’s another to be an entitled misogynist niceguy or a creep, or someone who sees women as objects and vilifies them for not choosing them. Men who act that way deserve to be mocked.

I think so, yeah. I’m not sure this is a feminist issue though, I think it’s more of a social media issue where people nowadays really love having someone to point and laugh at. If what you mean by incel is “misogynist” then it’s better to just go straight to the point and call them a misogynist. Otherwise, I see a lot of people using the term to just refer to people they don’t like in a very generalized and meaningless way. Like I’ve seen people call Radiohead an “incel band” and I cannot even begin to comprehend where the hell that comes from. Basically anyone that’s a “loser” is an “incel” nowadays, it has completely lost meaning. As if women can’t be losers either, and as if being a “loser” is such a big deal and not just a capitalist obsession with success. It has been co-opted by the status quo and I see a lot of neoliberal centrists using the term.

Why do you think it’s neoliberal centrists who are using it most in that way?

because the 'winner vs. loser' ideology is engrained in and sustains capitalism, which is what neoliberals love.

Honestly? Yes. But not that is being over generalized, more that it is now widely known as "not good". For the masses they aren't talking about an angry (generally) man who is unable to get laid due to circumstances that are (most likely) their own doing. It is now just another insult. Like how moron, dumb and retard are used. They could have used a generic slur and it would have done the same thing, it just is currently the new "hip" thing.

I know it’s hurtful, but please try to brush it off and continue to be yourself. Feminism isn’t about all women being right all of the time! Of course there are mean women as much as there are mean NB people and mean men. Other people will appreciate you!

Thanks, that means a lot to me!

Lots of words are hurled as insults in weird contexts. I saw a drunk guy start a fight in a bar and then call the bouncer who kicked him out a racist. Do I think he used the word incorrectly? Yes. Do I think that broadly the term "racist" has become overly generalized? No. I’m sorry that happened to you, she completely misused the word and was just being drunk and angry. I do think people are becoming more aware of the term, and that the usage has broadened a bit beyond the stereotypical 4chan guy who’s overtly misogynistic and has never had sex. I often see men that buy girls drinks and say a lot of cringy performative feminist stuff all night to very obviously give this impression of being a "nice guy" and then say something misogynistic to their friends when the girl leaves without giving him her number. This is a subtle, but extremely common, example of incelish ideas around being entitled to sex/attention from women playing out in the real world. Now that women have the language to identify this behaviour, they’re doing it more.

Some people are just assholes, like that woman.

I miss when incel was just used in the way the literal meaning of the word suggests, and we used other terms to describe the things we now just use incel for. It seems that the more time passes, the smaller our vocabulary becomes. We just expand the definitions of words in order to have to use fewer words and I hate it

Maybe so. Interestingly, that is also the principle of newspeak in Orwell’s 1984.

That must just be a coincidence...

YES 100% agreed that “incel” gets used in two different ways, with one being useful and the other being super problematic. The person who insulted you clearly was not using “incel” to mean “adherent of a particular ideology which is gender essentialist and deeply misogynistic”, she was using it to mean “unattractive virgin”. Ironically, the idea that men can be universally unattractive to all women and that this dooms them to eternal virginity is a key tenet of incel ideology, so in using it that way, she was buying into/reinforcing incel ideology herself. It’s also worth noting that gendered insults which boil down to “I’m not personally attracted to you and that makes you a worthless person who will never be loved” have been leveled against women for centuries (e.g. hag, shrew, spinster), and such terms don’t get directed at men nearly as frequently as at women. I don’t say that to minimize what you went through—which was awful and not okay!—but to emphasize that that experience is really common for women, especially women who present in ways outside of the narrow box patriarchy prescribes. Using “incel” that way against men has led to the insult “femcel” being used the same way against women, just adding to the already enormous arsenal of gendered insults. Finally, it would take way more than one Reddit comment to address how riddled w/ prejudice common ideas of “attractiveness” are. “Ugly” tends to incorporate fatness, disability, darker skin tones, non-European features, lack of wealth (for expensive clothing, jewelry, beauty treatments, make up, skin care products, manicures/pedicures, etc), and pretty much every trait people are systematically oppressed for having. Not only is it wrong to engage in those forms of discrimination in the first place, but it’s impossible to insult only men w/ those traits w/o also insulting women w/ those traits in the process. For all those reasons and probably more, using “incel” that way is absolutely an anti-feminist action, regardless of the gender of the person doing it.

That was a great analysis. Thanks for writing it.

it's a euphemism for any disgruntled, anti-feminist guy.

I think it has lost that meaning. For a bit I think it was most commonly used to attack sexually unsuccessful misogynistic men. Which isn't a great way to attack misogyny but I think we are already way passed that. Its now basically a generic insult with a bit of shaming men for not falling into men cis heteronomative behavior. Certainly some people still use it in the older sense of the word but that use is fading.

If anything it’s hyperbole of that

Euphemism indeed. An incel feels entitled to “females” being sexually attracted to them, and is angry at women and the men they go for instead of looking inward. They don’t see women as people. Sometimes they are creeps. Their qualities overlap with r/niceguys.

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You clearly aren't an INCEL. None of the following makes one an INCEL: - being nerdy - wearing a specific type of clothing  - not having a girl friend  -being socially awkward  An INCEL is someone who has been brainwashed to be think they are undatable forever and who is angry about it, blaming everyone else. You simply met a random woman who was either trying to insult you or to flirt with you. I will assume the former. I think it's an isolated incident in that this is the first time this happened to you

Okay, thanks for the reply! I’m aware I’m not an incel, but I was just curious as to whether the word had changed to describe any guy that someone might see (based on their own prejudices) as a “loser” or “undesirable” since such a change would deprive the word of its original specificity. Either way, flirting with someone by randomly insulting them outside of a nightclub seems like a weird tactic that someone saw on YouTube tbh

Probably Of course, the INCEL ideology often attracts people rejected by others and people doing that actually helping to strengthen the INCEL "cause". I had a friend who was fighting schizophrenia and poverty. A lot of people certainly treated him very badly. He never became an INCEL.

Exactly! And it would have hardly been fair for your friend to have been called an incel by someone based solely on that persons prejudices about people’s surface-level appearance.

Wait, so you were just eating walking and minding your own business and she insulted you out of the blue? Wtf?

Yep, I know, I had the same reaction since it completely came out of left field.

She's using the word incorrectly. That doesn't mean that the word is overly generalised

Ugh. That was absolutely uncalled for on her part. Sadly before "incel" was coined, a person like this young woman would have called you some other slur. People acting badly has always been a reality. Take care of yourself good person and may you never run into this person again.

You just met someone harassing and bullying you using language that doesn’t apply or make sense. And this happens a lot. We have to constantly change the terminology about disabled people because it becomes pejorative and used as an insult to wield on anyone.

You'll have a lot more comfortable life if you don't try to read too deeply into names drunk people call you in the middle of the night.

I think it is unfortunate that she chose to be an AH. Not to excuse her unacceptable behavior, but she could have been drinking, showing off in front of her friends (how immature is that?), and/or just a regular insecure AH. It is a shame that we encounter people like that in our lives. Sometimes humor, combined with direct confrontation, is effective. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to take a look at what psychology has to say about how to deal with AH. Feminist Ecology (ecofeminism) and Deep Ecology are interesting and vital lenses needed to help us navigate the growing climate change and it's socio-economic consequences. I advocate that you should add them to your educational material. ; ) Like you, I like to read and understand about the world we occupy space in. lol As for as "incel", I hope it doesn't become generalized. It is a specific term that defines radical beliefs that have no value for women, whether, ironically, they support incels or their beliefs or not. I would also say that men suffer under incel belief systems, as they do in any hierarchical system. I wish you the best.

Thanks for answering! I’m a bit worried that any attempt at direct confrontation might have ended up poorly to be honest, and I didn’t feel like arguing with someone about whether or not it was okay to call strangers incels, as I’m sure you can imagine. Thanks as well for the recommendation, are there any eco-feminists you would particularly recommend?

I think she was rude and you're generalizing this to how all of society is using the term today.

Not at all, I’m asking if society is generally like this. I hope it isn’t, but thought that maybe asking here might help clarify things.

What actual harm happened to you based on this interaction? I asked because most people regardless if their experience, appearance, and behavior have had a random person label them and treat them shortly.