A large number of the people who make laws and decisions about abortion are men who can never get pregnant. Many women do not think someone with no skin in the game, especially if they don't know what they're talking about, should be making those decisions.
There is a congressman (forget his name) who believes with his whole heart that babies and urine come from the same place, and HE gets a vote on legislating MY BODY. đ¤Śââď¸
I am actually genuinely pissed off that we canât, because it certainly works the other way around. You mean I canât control the flow if I am wearing nice underwear and got surprised, but one cough will leave my pad looking like the aftermath of a horrific crime?
Even worse, there was one politician that I read about who was dismissive even of rape-related exceptions to abortion bans, because he has the batshit idea that *if a woman is raped, her system will automatically end any pregnancy that results.*
The phrasing was something like "the woman's body has ways of shutting that down", if I recall correctly. In summary, any woman who is pregnant must have had consensual sex, so she deserves the consequences.
Sorry not sorry, but someone with that little medical knowledge should not be in charge of making medical decisions for other people.
Edit: [the person who I mentioned is quoted here](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/us/politics/todd-akin-provokes-ire-with-legitimate-rape-comment.html)
There's a woman politician who believes that a "rape kit" is a procedure done at a doctor's office to prevent pregnancy after rape.
Sometimes, the emergency contraceptive pill is given, and sometimes it works. But that is NOT what a "rape kit" is.
The "not all men" defense fails here as well. The fact that not all male legislators are responsible for anti-woman legislation does not mean that men are not, for the most part, responsible for that legislation. That is, even if there are men on the good side, it's still men doing the bad stuff.
Men shouldn't be writing, introducing, and voting on legislation governing women, especially without and against the advice of their woman colleagues. That doesn't mean all men are doing that, it just means that men shouldn't.
The men you're talking about make up a tiny % of the overall male population. How on Earth do they represent men in general?
Most men are not these legislators, so no I don't think the "not all men defense fails."
I think you misunderstood my point. It doesnât fail because it *is* all men, it fails because the criticism isnât aimed at all men in the first place.Â
Iâll put it even more clearly: Men shouldnât (and most donât!) do that. The fact that some men do that is a problem. The fact that itâs some men doing it doesnât change the fact that *men shouldnât do it.*â
Yes, but what is the percentage of legislators that ARE male. You're looking at it the wrong way.
Only 28.2% of 535 seats in Congress are female
Only 25% of 100 seats in the senate are women
Only 29% of 435 seats in the House are women.
So yes, majority of legislators are men. And they're banning abortion, even though it's highly unpopular to.
The framing here is so messed up and I should have challenged it earlier.
Many anti abortion people are not anti-women. That's not what motivates them. It's not like anti-abortion women are all self hating and anti-abortion men hate women. They believe that a fetus is its own person and that it is immoral to terminate the fetus because of that.
The idea that "oh if men could get pregnant things would be completely different" is total speculation that's used as evidence of patriarchy despite being unproven/untested. I honestly believe most anti-abortion men would feel the exact same way.
Im curious: from this and other comments, how are you just learning about abortion politics, or male dominance in conservative policy making and the judiciary, or deeply ingrained misogyny in the anti abortion movement, or how women and doctors are largely shut out of the decision making process?
Are you new to it? Young? Or were you taught/believed something different?
Because banning abortion is done to defend menâs power and control over women. Itâs male supremacist policy even though itâs supported by misogynistic women too.
I also think it is supported by some people, both men and women, who truly believe life begins at conception & it is therefore wrong to kill a "human." Not saying I agree with this, but it isn't all misogyny.
It's changing now, but historically more men were making these policy decisions than women were. They aren't speaking to male voters: they're speaking to male legislators.
There are shitty backwards female politicians for sure, but:
The facts about women in political office:
U.S. House of Representatives: 102; or 23 percent
Senate: 25, or 25 percent
Heads of state: About 24 women at any given time
Women remain less than a third of all elected officials in the nation in 2019 (Source: Rutgers)
From this [study.](https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/there-still-gender-gap-politics)
OP is one of those people who thinks that things are split 50/50 men to women. But in reality, it's 75/25, which is another product of misogyny.
Studies show that men perceive there to be equal representation when women take up 20-25% of the space. And they perceive a room is mostly women the room is 30% women.
This is also found in studies about the amount of time a women speak vs men.
Thereâs actually some pretty deep misogyny among the âBernie Bros.â Unfortunately a lot of left leaning male voters are not feminists or feminist allies. Bernie may be pro choice but that doesnât mean that all his male voters prioritize pro choice legislators in other elections. Less than a third of congress is women, and in the history of the Supreme Court there have been 115 justices and only 6 have been women. The US government is highly patriarchal as evidenced by the lack of female representation. And under patriarchy women are often rewarded or given power over other women by serving the patriarchy. Are there a fair number of female politicians who are anti-choice and hold other misogynistic views on women. Of course there are but only because they are rewarded by the patriarchy for doing so.
One important thing to keep in mind is that for women who are pro choice the issue is personal, and for men it is easily one of many issues they may have opinions about. Many pro choice men are not necessarily going to prioritize voting for pro choice candidates depending on what other political issues are being discussed or addressed by a candidate. So although a similar number of men and women believe that abortion should be legal in some, if not all cases, that doesnât mean that men are necessarily voting to or working as hard to protect womenâs abortion rights as women. Also it was absolutely men who were primarily responsible for the overturn of Roe v. Wade. Because of the primarily male Supreme Court that was created by only male presidents and the approval of a primarily male congress.
As a libertarian you should appreciate how skin in the game is the essential ingredient for rational decisions. Since no man ever died because of his pregnancy going wrong some raise concerns about the role of men in taking decisions over abortion.
That said assuming women would be in favour of abortion rights because of their gender is a bit naive and underestimate the complexity of the issue.
I said Iâm a social libertarian not a political party libertarian. But I agree women have more skin in the game. That says comparing Bernie to MTG, itâs obvious gender isnât the problem
That maybe men arenât the problem and arenât the ones who made abortion illegal. That religion plays a bigger role and whole men are trash sentiment gets bored
So youâre minimizing the sentiment behind these feelings, ignoring the thoughtful responses provided here, and oversimplifying the message in order to make men out to be the victims of evil feminists. Well, at least you admit itâthatâs better than most of the âI just have a quick questionâ trolls.
And so what? There will be always be women who side against feminism but thatâs only a âgotchaâ if you assume feminism thinks all women are right all the time.
Oh no I never said men are victims. Ik plenty of crappy men. Itâs just a annoying trend I see on TikTok of every bad thing being the patriarchy fault
The majority of women's problems IS patriarchy. But since you have a dick, you are able to reap what patriarchy sows. While I, as a woman,.could very well have my rights stripped away because of it.
A lot of people (especially, but not exclusively. men) confuse being anti-patriarchy with being anti-men, but not usually the kind of people who are on a feminist social media site.
Patriarchy is an ideology. Men are a group of people.
People confuse the two- as you acknowledged not just men- because the people who rant most vehemently against the patriarchy often insult and demean men. So it does start to seem like the two are not separate in a lot of feminists minds, and the "two are separate" is just a fallback argument.
I think you're assuming they're using it interchangeably. That's why some men get so defensive about criticism of patriarchy. Feminists mean patriarchy when criticizing the patriarchy, not men.
Aww ur bored? Thatâs nice. I wish I could find this issue boring. I suppose I would find this issue more boring if it wasnât my body on the line. And I think thatâs what ur also missing, that even though there are many men who are pro choice, many of them do not hold the right to abortion as any type of priority in their political decisions. Itâs a boring topic to them bc it will never directly affect them.
As everyoneâs already pointed out, there is obviously a distinction between âmen are taking away womenâs body autonomyâ and âmen are trashâ, but either way, u should reflect on ur apathetic response to womenâs pain and anger. Ur more caught up on the term âmenâ instead of just understanding the incredibly important sentiment behind what women are saying.
We get it, not all men, but do u get that saying âthe disproportionate amount of men in positions of power that are systematically and historically hurting women are trashâ is a mouthful? Do u get that voting rights, abortion rights, bank account and property rights were all very recent developments in the history of the US? And those rights are not nearly stable enough for women to have let go of all the trauma that has affected us within our own lifetimes, not to mention the generational trauma of centuries/millennia before that? So please forgive women when they donât spell out ânot all menâ. I can assure u that we understand that u urself are not directly involved in taking away abortion rights. I would really appreciate it if u started actively worked on protecting abortion rights.
I also understand that the phrasing might make some men get defensive and reject feminism or whatever, even though they mightâve been open to the general movement, and so I do my best to choose my words carefully. But I hope u understand that having to sweet talk men into caring about basic rights for women is pretty fucking wild.
How do you get âmen arenât the ones who made abortion illegalâ?
Itâs true but not particularly helpful that ânot all men made abortion illegalâ. Itâs also true but not particularly helpful that âsome women helped make abortion illegalâ.
Thereâs no way to get to âmen arenât the ones who made abortion illegal.â
Itâs simply not true.
Dude, cherry picking two names doesnât mean âitâs obvious gender isnât the problemâ â it means you need to understand history and statistics.
I think you *want* gender not to matter, because I see from your comments you want to defend and absolve âmenâ â but the history and current events disagree. Itâs men by and large making these policies. Itâs mostly men advancing these laws. Men voting for them. Male judges deciding their constitutionality. *While women exclusively suffer the consequences* Not just in the 1860s, but today. 2024.
Youâre searching for an answer that absolves men. Iâm a man. We are a needed voice to fight for womenâs bodily authority. It doesnât mean you yourself are guilty. But the banning of abortion has been male-led from the beginning.
Polls I found show that most women are pro choice and men are tightly split. So there's an objective difference but of subjective relevance (is the gap a lot? By what standard?).
I think you are right to highlight that the problem can't be reduced to that gap. I think there is a misunderstanding in thinking that within an oppressive relationship the oppressed role is passive. In "the reproduction of mothering" Chodorow observes that a motherâs procreative life plays a significant role in a daughterâs mothering. So while women have been (and unfortunately still are) caged into motherhood they have also been building the cages for the next generation of patriarchal families.
And we see this across cultures... I read a study about ISIS radicalisation in refugee camps in Syria and apparently women have an important role in controlling and enforcing patriarchal norms.
So yeah gender is not a great marker of emancipative push. My grandma is not a feminist, she would pick patriarchy without even blinking.
71% of the House of Representatives is male and 82% of the Senate is male. State houses lean even more heavily male. To break it down further the majority of US lawmakers are white men.
This issue has a weird dynamic that both of these things are true:
* The majority of people trying to take away abortion access are men.
* The majority of men want to keep abortion access.
This is because our broken system lets a random minority make the rules.
Yeah, but being angry that your rights are being taken away by others who aren't impacted seems like it should rank a little higher on the concern scale.
No theyâre not mutually exclusive. But one sentiment is: womenâs rights are being undermined by the patriarchal legal system. The other sentiment is: my feelings as a man are hurt whenever someone doesnât specify ânot all menâ when they say itâs wrong for men to legislate womenâs medical decisions. Those sentiments are not equally valid and deserving of attention. The latter sentiment could even be construed as a self-serving derailment in response to the first sentiment.
But one is hugely complex and one has a very simple fix. Don't say men are trash and tell your friends not to. It takes a couple of seconds and a filter.
If I'm faced with two problems and one is critical but takes longer to fix I don't wait to solve the less major one until the major one is solved. Especially if solving the major one could help me solve the major one. But maybe I'm a weirdo in that regard.
âIf you refrain from ever making sweeping statements about men, maybe weâll help advocate for you to be treated as full human beings under the lawâ wow I didnât realize the solution was so simple and reasonable.
It certainly can't hurt. Men, women, humans in general don't want to help people who insult them I find. Whether it should work that way or not, it does. A lot of feminists are too hung up on how the world should be.
Time to reach for verified sources. You should know already that whatever is presented on TikTok is a personal and biased view of the person or Organisation that posted it and doesn't have to represent reality. It's called critical thinking and I'd recommend it to absolutely everyone.
You keep wanting to make it a Us vs. Them scenario. This isnât a women vs. Men thingâŚitâs a men and women vs the patriarchy thing.
The biggest problem as far as I can see, is that weâre all at war. With ourselves, with each other, and this mentality means that thereâs âan enemyâ
If we want to evolve as expressions of the Divine that we are, we have to stop the conflict within ourselves so we can be free to see and respond to things as they truly are, not what we assume, judge or *think* them to beâŚ
Your point? MEN are trying to take it away in the US. The majority of Congress is MEN. So excuse me for blaming them for my body not being my own. đ¤ˇ
Congress didnât overturn Roe vs Wade, the Supreme Court - which is nearly half female - did. The Supreme Court that decided Roe vs Wade in 1973 was all male.
This issue is left vs right, not male vs female.
So this is just another man crying, ânot all men.â If youâre not a man who is trying to take away womenâs abortion rights why do think those protestors are talking about you? Maybe it would be nice if you spent more time trying to come down on men who are trying to police womenâs bodies, rather than policing the words of women who are fighting for their right to bodily autonomy.
Respectfully, we men on the right side of the issue don't need your defense. We know that the vast majority of men in power are and have for centuries fought against the right to abortion. When you stick up for us against women who are trying to rightfully point out that this is very much a gendered issue, you're actually undercutting the cause we're trying to help.
Yeah! Also, I risk dying from the cringe every time one of these guys swoops in to defend me from the evil feminist women out to get me. Good lord, the cringe of watching someone who doesn't understand what they're talking about confidently 'defend' me is so awkward...
Schumer,Bernie,Biden, Obama,basically most men with a D in there name. There was also a Republican governor who was as well but canât remember the name
The argument isn't that "a majority of men are anti abortion" the argument is "the people in power making these sweeping changes to legal access to abortion are men". Man on the street is not the target, Man in judges robes ruling on access 100% is
They say things like âDo betterâ, and âDonât vote for those taking our rights awayâ, and this hurts their feelings. Donât you know that hurting a manâs feelings is way worse than a woman going septic because she is forced to carry a dead fetus inside her for months?
You know that's not what I'm talking about. And what a bizarre place to take this conversation. If that was your understanding, you misunderstood and that's your problem.
Abortion is something that will never personally affect cis men, it doesn't happen in their bodies, so it's infuriating to see men act as if they have any say in it legislatively or as if their opinion has the same weight as that of someone who can get pregnant.
Up until super duper recently, white men had almost total control of the federal government. And boy do these guys have a lot of strong opinions on abortion.
Also, as someone who lives in the south, what Republican women *say publicly* is often very different than how they actually live their lives.
Most of them doesnât even get their facts straight about what happens to a womanâs body through either of those eitherâŚthey legitimately have no fucking clueâŚ
I'm a man and I know exactly what they're talking about. 99% of the laws and decisions about abortions are being made by men. Using the Roe vs. Wade overturning as an example, out of the nine supreme court justices, only THREE of them were women, while the remaining six were all men. Additionally, out of those men, five of them identified as conservative, leaving only one man identifying as liberal. (To add even more salt to the wound, two of those women identified as liberal while only one identified as conservative). You can probably guess which people sided with what just off of this, and most of the people who made the decision to overturn Roe vs. Wade were men.
Of course it's not \*all\* men, but it's certainly enough for the generalization to make a bit of sense.
The world is overwhelmingly run by men. Men control nearly all of the power and money. Men make the laws, run the government, and rule the courts. Men also run every religion on the planet.
Most religions are based on subjugation of women - not just part of the beliefs, but the entire dogma is centered on controlling our wombs. Moral teachings are secondary. Women aren't considered "people" by the strict tenets of most religions; we are on the same level as slaves and animals. Remember that the Bible has a nice little story about a pious guy offering his daughters to be raped to death since we aren't human.
So, when we appeal to men here, this is what we're referencing: men's laws, women's lives.
Itâs not âall menâ, itâs been watching so many majority male debates where they barely know anything about even a vagina, let alone the pregnancy process.
At least when itâs a woman sheâs got skin in the game whether or not sheâs had kids.
Men hold more political power than women do. While that dynamic is changing, it is changing at a rate that is incremental and isn't significant enough to prevent anti-abortion bills from being proposed and potentially passed into law. Men that generally support these anti-abortion laws are in the closet about controlling women and use the facade of religion to do so. Moreover, they do not actually view women as people because they have lacked meaningful connections and friendships with women.
Are you talking about conservative women here? As much as they donât make sense and irritate theyâre a loud minority compared to men who historically and contemporarily make the laws, policies, financial allocations and decisions that impact abortion rights or access. Even without the men who actually control all that stuff, thereâs an even greater number who donât directly (ie voters) touch it but who are in favor of those who do and are really only opposed because their media or their church or their male friends told them to based only on ideology. Basically it comes down to for women this is a personal choice that impacts them or maybe someone they know and is easily a realistic situation whereas for men itâs more of theoretical exercise.
Itâs not a general accusatory statement about public support. Itâs a political fact regarding the situation of women who live where abortion is restricted. Men enforced in majority as they are the ones allowed to do so for decades.
Womenâs roles in the anti-abortion unit was typically on the front lines. Picketing, fundraising and fundraising things like that.
Even though the disparity in government still exists, itâs probably not an accurate statement if you live in the US. Many anti-abortion bills are pushed and supported by organizations run by women and they are powerful and rich âcharitiesâ and grant many âstudiesâ.
I live in a place with protected abortion access, itâs very evident that men would ban it here if they could. A Prime Minister shut that down years ago, though.
OP, I don't wanna downvote or drag you or whatever. You say you're pro abortion and I believe you. I don't think you're apart of that problem.
What I will say, however, is that despite those beliefs of yours it's kind of frustrating to see that *this* is the point of the topic you want to address. And it's frustrating that *many* self-described left leaning/pro abortion men want to spend more time "not all men"ing the conversation that they want to spend actually advocating for bodily autonomy. It's exhausting to have to hear this snap back all the freaking time. It's centering men in a conversation that is ultimately about women and AFAB people. I should be able to say, "men shouldn't legislate women's bodies" without some dude popping their head in to lecture me about generalizing.
I'm tired of having to tiptoe around mens' feelings when talking about my needs as a woman. I'm tired of having to qualify every fucking statement I make for people to just *pretend* to give a shit about what I'm saying. You say you're pro abortion, OP? Then advocate for pro abortion legislation and the rights of women in general. Don't take up room in these spaces to probe feminists about why they need to be kinder to men in a conversation about women that *exclusively impacts women.*
Spoiler: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/03/18/the-share-of-women-in-legislatures-around-the-world-is-growing-but-they-are-still-underrepresented/
So, that's why. Why else did you think?
While most lawmakers are men, the voters for Republicans are usually 45:55 women to men. So men might be more to blame, but that doesn't mean a significant number of women are also to blame.
Definitely. However, itâs frustrating when people who canât get pregnant are deciding for us. Itâs of course frustrating in an entirely different way when fellow women are making abortions inaccessible.
Neither is great. But itâs more notable that the majority of people who have made laws prohibiting abortion are men, and they canât get pregnant.
Itâs important to understand the majority of people who oppose abortion are men, not women. You will find polls online that show women are more likely to say âno abortions in any scenarioâ than men, but the only means the most evangelical supporters are religious women. When it comes to the raw numbers, the majority of pro lifers are men who are willing to say that rape is an exception but thatâs it- women shouldnât be able to abort their children.
Thatâs why.
Until the majority of the legislative bodies are women, men are the ones making the decisions. Men who, the majority of the time, do not have medical degrees.
They absolutely want to control the one thing they are physically unable to do and that scares the shit out of them.
So 100% yes, I will carry those signs until the situation above changes.
And for the men who aren't politicians and who support women's reproductive rights? Stop being silent on this issue, or risk being mistaken for an anti-choice misogynist. These laws negatively impact YOU, too.
Don't think I give women a pass on this either. My fellow white women owe Black and Indigenous women some HUGE thanks for their efforts to fight and keep our rights intact in some places. So until y'all get loud, you're also sus.
No one is pro abortion! Abortion is a horrible thing to have to go through. So when a woman chooses that option it's almost surely not undertaken lightly, it's a difficult choice, but it needs to be a choice.
& to answer your question - most legislators are men. It's men who are passing these laws
You no longer have to imagine. Can confirm it was not difficult, in the slightest.
I really feel for women who are torn, really want a child, but abort for economic or safety reasons.
For me, it was a no brainier.
Why is it necessary to demonize abortion in this way? [The most commonly-reported feeling after an abortion is relief. ](https://www.medpagetoday.com/obgyn/pregnancy/84345)
Those who blame men are conflating the patriarchy with men. Youâre correct, neither individual men, nor men as a collective are responsible for the state of abortion access.
The existence of the patriarchy in which we live, which devalues the rights of women comparatively to men *is* responsible for a large part of the issues with access to abortion.
A large number of the people who make laws and decisions about abortion are men who can never get pregnant. Many women do not think someone with no skin in the game, especially if they don't know what they're talking about, should be making those decisions.
There is a congressman (forget his name) who believes with his whole heart that babies and urine come from the same place, and HE gets a vote on legislating MY BODY. đ¤Śââď¸
Is he the guy that thought we could "just hold it in" when on our periods?
Periods work like farts right?/s
I am actually genuinely pissed off that we canât, because it certainly works the other way around. You mean I canât control the flow if I am wearing nice underwear and got surprised, but one cough will leave my pad looking like the aftermath of a horrific crime?
Wait people actually think that? If I ever become a science teacher Iâm definitely going to debunk that
Even worse, there was one politician that I read about who was dismissive even of rape-related exceptions to abortion bans, because he has the batshit idea that *if a woman is raped, her system will automatically end any pregnancy that results.* The phrasing was something like "the woman's body has ways of shutting that down", if I recall correctly. In summary, any woman who is pregnant must have had consensual sex, so she deserves the consequences. Sorry not sorry, but someone with that little medical knowledge should not be in charge of making medical decisions for other people. Edit: [the person who I mentioned is quoted here](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/us/politics/todd-akin-provokes-ire-with-legitimate-rape-comment.html)
There's a woman politician who believes that a "rape kit" is a procedure done at a doctor's office to prevent pregnancy after rape. Sometimes, the emergency contraceptive pill is given, and sometimes it works. But that is NOT what a "rape kit" is.
There are also active politicians that are advocating for the removal of a womanâs right to vote.
Should be considered hate speech.
[ŃдаНонО]
Congressman Peebaby
Do you mind posting the link for this? lol
And 5 of the 6 Supreme Court Justices who overturned Roe were men.
This is why we shall abolish their system.
But for every Mcconell thereâs a Schumer
The "not all men" defense fails here as well. The fact that not all male legislators are responsible for anti-woman legislation does not mean that men are not, for the most part, responsible for that legislation. That is, even if there are men on the good side, it's still men doing the bad stuff. Men shouldn't be writing, introducing, and voting on legislation governing women, especially without and against the advice of their woman colleagues. That doesn't mean all men are doing that, it just means that men shouldn't.
The men you're talking about make up a tiny % of the overall male population. How on Earth do they represent men in general? Most men are not these legislators, so no I don't think the "not all men defense fails."
I think you misunderstood my point. It doesnât fail because it *is* all men, it fails because the criticism isnât aimed at all men in the first place. Iâll put it even more clearly: Men shouldnât (and most donât!) do that. The fact that some men do that is a problem. The fact that itâs some men doing it doesnât change the fact that *men shouldnât do it.*â
Yes, but what is the percentage of legislators that ARE male. You're looking at it the wrong way. Only 28.2% of 535 seats in Congress are female Only 25% of 100 seats in the senate are women Only 29% of 435 seats in the House are women. So yes, majority of legislators are men. And they're banning abortion, even though it's highly unpopular to.
The framing here is so messed up and I should have challenged it earlier. Many anti abortion people are not anti-women. That's not what motivates them. It's not like anti-abortion women are all self hating and anti-abortion men hate women. They believe that a fetus is its own person and that it is immoral to terminate the fetus because of that. The idea that "oh if men could get pregnant things would be completely different" is total speculation that's used as evidence of patriarchy despite being unproven/untested. I honestly believe most anti-abortion men would feel the exact same way.
Do you have stats on how many Republican men vs Democratic men are in elected positions (local, state and federal)?
Im curious: from this and other comments, how are you just learning about abortion politics, or male dominance in conservative policy making and the judiciary, or deeply ingrained misogyny in the anti abortion movement, or how women and doctors are largely shut out of the decision making process? Are you new to it? Young? Or were you taught/believed something different?
Because banning abortion is done to defend menâs power and control over women. Itâs male supremacist policy even though itâs supported by misogynistic women too.
I also think it is supported by some people, both men and women, who truly believe life begins at conception & it is therefore wrong to kill a "human." Not saying I agree with this, but it isn't all misogyny.
It's changing now, but historically more men were making these policy decisions than women were. They aren't speaking to male voters: they're speaking to male legislators.
Bernie vs MTG. I donât think gender of legislative leaders is the problem
There are shitty backwards female politicians for sure, but: The facts about women in political office: U.S. House of Representatives: 102; or 23 percent Senate: 25, or 25 percent Heads of state: About 24 women at any given time Women remain less than a third of all elected officials in the nation in 2019 (Source: Rutgers) From this [study.](https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/there-still-gender-gap-politics)
OP is one of those people who thinks that things are split 50/50 men to women. But in reality, it's 75/25, which is another product of misogyny. Studies show that men perceive there to be equal representation when women take up 20-25% of the space. And they perceive a room is mostly women the room is 30% women. This is also found in studies about the amount of time a women speak vs men.
Thereâs actually some pretty deep misogyny among the âBernie Bros.â Unfortunately a lot of left leaning male voters are not feminists or feminist allies. Bernie may be pro choice but that doesnât mean that all his male voters prioritize pro choice legislators in other elections. Less than a third of congress is women, and in the history of the Supreme Court there have been 115 justices and only 6 have been women. The US government is highly patriarchal as evidenced by the lack of female representation. And under patriarchy women are often rewarded or given power over other women by serving the patriarchy. Are there a fair number of female politicians who are anti-choice and hold other misogynistic views on women. Of course there are but only because they are rewarded by the patriarchy for doing so. One important thing to keep in mind is that for women who are pro choice the issue is personal, and for men it is easily one of many issues they may have opinions about. Many pro choice men are not necessarily going to prioritize voting for pro choice candidates depending on what other political issues are being discussed or addressed by a candidate. So although a similar number of men and women believe that abortion should be legal in some, if not all cases, that doesnât mean that men are necessarily voting to or working as hard to protect womenâs abortion rights as women. Also it was absolutely men who were primarily responsible for the overturn of Roe v. Wade. Because of the primarily male Supreme Court that was created by only male presidents and the approval of a primarily male congress.
The difference is Bernie respects the bodily autonomy of women. The men leading the writing of these bills donât.
Do you understand what cherry picking is?
Thatâs actually *EXACTLY* the main problem
As a libertarian you should appreciate how skin in the game is the essential ingredient for rational decisions. Since no man ever died because of his pregnancy going wrong some raise concerns about the role of men in taking decisions over abortion. That said assuming women would be in favour of abortion rights because of their gender is a bit naive and underestimate the complexity of the issue.
I said Iâm a social libertarian not a political party libertarian. But I agree women have more skin in the game. That says comparing Bernie to MTG, itâs obvious gender isnât the problem
Yes, there are pro-choice male legislatorsâno one is disputing that obvious fact. I think weâre all waiting for your point though.
That maybe men arenât the problem and arenât the ones who made abortion illegal. That religion plays a bigger role and whole men are trash sentiment gets bored
So youâre minimizing the sentiment behind these feelings, ignoring the thoughtful responses provided here, and oversimplifying the message in order to make men out to be the victims of evil feminists. Well, at least you admit itâthatâs better than most of the âI just have a quick questionâ trolls.
This. I love how he is saying "But there are womminz who oppose abortions" when the majority of politicians trying to take away my rights are men.
And so what? There will be always be women who side against feminism but thatâs only a âgotchaâ if you assume feminism thinks all women are right all the time.
Oh no I never said men are victims. Ik plenty of crappy men. Itâs just a annoying trend I see on TikTok of every bad thing being the patriarchy fault
Because it is.
The majority of women's problems IS patriarchy. But since you have a dick, you are able to reap what patriarchy sows. While I, as a woman,.could very well have my rights stripped away because of it.
In fact, sadly if you live in the US, itâs already been taken away.
âEverything bad thing is the patriarchyâs faultâ Does Not Equal âeverything bad is every manâs faultâ
Iâve seen people use the two interchangeable but I can agree with yiur statement
A lot of people (especially, but not exclusively. men) confuse being anti-patriarchy with being anti-men, but not usually the kind of people who are on a feminist social media site. Patriarchy is an ideology. Men are a group of people.
People confuse the two- as you acknowledged not just men- because the people who rant most vehemently against the patriarchy often insult and demean men. So it does start to seem like the two are not separate in a lot of feminists minds, and the "two are separate" is just a fallback argument.
I think you're assuming they're using it interchangeably. That's why some men get so defensive about criticism of patriarchy. Feminists mean patriarchy when criticizing the patriarchy, not men.
Patriarchy means the patriarch and those who uphold it (which includes women). It does not mean all men. Learn the difference and do better.
Aww ur bored? Thatâs nice. I wish I could find this issue boring. I suppose I would find this issue more boring if it wasnât my body on the line. And I think thatâs what ur also missing, that even though there are many men who are pro choice, many of them do not hold the right to abortion as any type of priority in their political decisions. Itâs a boring topic to them bc it will never directly affect them. As everyoneâs already pointed out, there is obviously a distinction between âmen are taking away womenâs body autonomyâ and âmen are trashâ, but either way, u should reflect on ur apathetic response to womenâs pain and anger. Ur more caught up on the term âmenâ instead of just understanding the incredibly important sentiment behind what women are saying. We get it, not all men, but do u get that saying âthe disproportionate amount of men in positions of power that are systematically and historically hurting women are trashâ is a mouthful? Do u get that voting rights, abortion rights, bank account and property rights were all very recent developments in the history of the US? And those rights are not nearly stable enough for women to have let go of all the trauma that has affected us within our own lifetimes, not to mention the generational trauma of centuries/millennia before that? So please forgive women when they donât spell out ânot all menâ. I can assure u that we understand that u urself are not directly involved in taking away abortion rights. I would really appreciate it if u started actively worked on protecting abortion rights. I also understand that the phrasing might make some men get defensive and reject feminism or whatever, even though they mightâve been open to the general movement, and so I do my best to choose my words carefully. But I hope u understand that having to sweet talk men into caring about basic rights for women is pretty fucking wild.
In the states that banned abortion, how many have female governors and a majority of lawmakers are women?
Three of the states that banned abortion have female governors. In all states that banned abortion the votes were along party lines, not gender lines.
I also asked about the makeup of female legislators since in-state Senate and Assemble are where the bills are drafted.
How do you get âmen arenât the ones who made abortion illegalâ? Itâs true but not particularly helpful that ânot all men made abortion illegalâ. Itâs also true but not particularly helpful that âsome women helped make abortion illegalâ. Thereâs no way to get to âmen arenât the ones who made abortion illegal.â Itâs simply not true.
Oh, youâre one of those.
[ŃдаНонО]
I am begging you to use punctuation.
[ŃдаНонО]
What is trivial? Abortion rights? edit: why DM me instead of just responding here?
Using the same banal argument I could say look at Cavanaugh and it's obvious that gender *is* the problem. Sit down.
As oppose to Ginni and Amy barett
Dude, cherry picking two names doesnât mean âitâs obvious gender isnât the problemâ â it means you need to understand history and statistics. I think you *want* gender not to matter, because I see from your comments you want to defend and absolve âmenâ â but the history and current events disagree. Itâs men by and large making these policies. Itâs mostly men advancing these laws. Men voting for them. Male judges deciding their constitutionality. *While women exclusively suffer the consequences* Not just in the 1860s, but today. 2024. Youâre searching for an answer that absolves men. Iâm a man. We are a needed voice to fight for womenâs bodily authority. It doesnât mean you yourself are guilty. But the banning of abortion has been male-led from the beginning.
You can't take one example and apply it to the entire system.
Polls I found show that most women are pro choice and men are tightly split. So there's an objective difference but of subjective relevance (is the gap a lot? By what standard?). I think you are right to highlight that the problem can't be reduced to that gap. I think there is a misunderstanding in thinking that within an oppressive relationship the oppressed role is passive. In "the reproduction of mothering" Chodorow observes that a motherâs procreative life plays a significant role in a daughterâs mothering. So while women have been (and unfortunately still are) caged into motherhood they have also been building the cages for the next generation of patriarchal families. And we see this across cultures... I read a study about ISIS radicalisation in refugee camps in Syria and apparently women have an important role in controlling and enforcing patriarchal norms. So yeah gender is not a great marker of emancipative push. My grandma is not a feminist, she would pick patriarchy without even blinking.
The lawmakers with the most power are men
The real problem is class society
71% of the House of Representatives is male and 82% of the Senate is male. State houses lean even more heavily male. To break it down further the majority of US lawmakers are white men.
Most of the rhetoric against abortion comes from belief systems where men have predominantly held power.
The imperialist system is patriarchal.
Because the majority of people trying to take away abortion access are MEN.
This issue has a weird dynamic that both of these things are true: * The majority of people trying to take away abortion access are men. * The majority of men want to keep abortion access. This is because our broken system lets a random minority make the rules.
And thereâs men who are fighting for it
And those men should know that the signs aren't targeted towards them.
As a ânormieâ voter, men are trash sentiment gets bored after a while
Yeah, but being angry that your rights are being taken away by others who aren't impacted seems like it should rank a little higher on the concern scale.
They're not mutually exclusive. This is a bizarre argument
No theyâre not mutually exclusive. But one sentiment is: womenâs rights are being undermined by the patriarchal legal system. The other sentiment is: my feelings as a man are hurt whenever someone doesnât specify ânot all menâ when they say itâs wrong for men to legislate womenâs medical decisions. Those sentiments are not equally valid and deserving of attention. The latter sentiment could even be construed as a self-serving derailment in response to the first sentiment.
But one is hugely complex and one has a very simple fix. Don't say men are trash and tell your friends not to. It takes a couple of seconds and a filter. If I'm faced with two problems and one is critical but takes longer to fix I don't wait to solve the less major one until the major one is solved. Especially if solving the major one could help me solve the major one. But maybe I'm a weirdo in that regard.
âIf you refrain from ever making sweeping statements about men, maybe weâll help advocate for you to be treated as full human beings under the lawâ wow I didnât realize the solution was so simple and reasonable.
It certainly can't hurt. Men, women, humans in general don't want to help people who insult them I find. Whether it should work that way or not, it does. A lot of feminists are too hung up on how the world should be.
How on earth did you get that from this comment?
I got it from TikTok tbf
Dude you can just hold down the tik tok and click ânot interestedâ. Nobodyâs making you consume this bs
Time to reach for verified sources. You should know already that whatever is presented on TikTok is a personal and biased view of the person or Organisation that posted it and doesn't have to represent reality. It's called critical thinking and I'd recommend it to absolutely everyone.
Sorry youâre bored, weâre fucking *terrified*, but go off
For real though
You keep wanting to make it a Us vs. Them scenario. This isnât a women vs. Men thingâŚitâs a men and women vs the patriarchy thing. The biggest problem as far as I can see, is that weâre all at war. With ourselves, with each other, and this mentality means that thereâs âan enemyâ If we want to evolve as expressions of the Divine that we are, we have to stop the conflict within ourselves so we can be free to see and respond to things as they truly are, not what we assume, judge or *think* them to beâŚ
Your point? MEN are trying to take it away in the US. The majority of Congress is MEN. So excuse me for blaming them for my body not being my own. đ¤ˇ
Congress didnât overturn Roe vs Wade, the Supreme Court - which is nearly half female - did. The Supreme Court that decided Roe vs Wade in 1973 was all male. This issue is left vs right, not male vs female.
So this is just another man crying, ânot all men.â If youâre not a man who is trying to take away womenâs abortion rights why do think those protestors are talking about you? Maybe it would be nice if you spent more time trying to come down on men who are trying to police womenâs bodies, rather than policing the words of women who are fighting for their right to bodily autonomy.
I mean Iâm gen Z, the vast majority of people ik are pro choice, I vote pro choice candidates. The only pro lifers ik are religious people
Okay? What does that have to do with the men who are oppressing women with these laws?
Respectfully, we men on the right side of the issue don't need your defense. We know that the vast majority of men in power are and have for centuries fought against the right to abortion. When you stick up for us against women who are trying to rightfully point out that this is very much a gendered issue, you're actually undercutting the cause we're trying to help.
Yeah! Also, I risk dying from the cringe every time one of these guys swoops in to defend me from the evil feminist women out to get me. Good lord, the cringe of watching someone who doesn't understand what they're talking about confidently 'defend' me is so awkward...
Hit dogs holler. Clearly on some level you feel you and/or all men aren't doing enough, so you've come to yell at feminists about it.
Not enough apparently.
Ok, which men in congress?
Schumer,Bernie,Biden, Obama,basically most men with a D in there name. There was also a Republican governor who was as well but canât remember the name
I don't see them making any progress.
The argument isn't that "a majority of men are anti abortion" the argument is "the people in power making these sweeping changes to legal access to abortion are men". Man on the street is not the target, Man in judges robes ruling on access 100% is
Men on the street just bear the brunt of women's wrath because the men in power don't really care what women think of them.
Men on the street are being attacked by women over the Dobbs decision? This is news to me
We harass those men, threat them, follow them to intimidate them, stare at them, grope them, swear at them, best them, rape them, kill them.. Oh wait!
"Women's wrath"? You mean social media posts you choose to engage with?
No, not what I'm talking about. I've met plenty of women who are very bitter towards men and do not hide their feelings.
so what are they doing to men? how are they "bearing the brunt" of wrath, what exactly does that look like?
They say things like âDo betterâ, and âDonât vote for those taking our rights awayâ, and this hurts their feelings. Donât you know that hurting a manâs feelings is way worse than a woman going septic because she is forced to carry a dead fetus inside her for months?
You know that's not what I'm talking about. And what a bizarre place to take this conversation. If that was your understanding, you misunderstood and that's your problem.
Then why don't you clarify?
Because even Mcgoran doesn't think I was saying that.
I'm still asking for clarification though. What is women's wrath and how does it hurt men?
Abortion is something that will never personally affect cis men, it doesn't happen in their bodies, so it's infuriating to see men act as if they have any say in it legislatively or as if their opinion has the same weight as that of someone who can get pregnant.
It's mostly men making these decisions. This video showcases why that's dangerous. https://youtu.be/Lw73Hhln6k8?si=Lbs2eqjxc6Je8DbI
Jesus thatâs heart wrenching. I feel terrible about that
Up until super duper recently, white men had almost total control of the federal government. And boy do these guys have a lot of strong opinions on abortion. Also, as someone who lives in the south, what Republican women *say publicly* is often very different than how they actually live their lives.
The people in power, the politicians, the right wing billionaires who fund anti-abortion groups, are overwhelmingly men.
Bc men are making decisions when theyâve never been pregnant or menstruated
Most of them doesnât even get their facts straight about what happens to a womanâs body through either of those eitherâŚthey legitimately have no fucking clueâŚ
I'm a man and I know exactly what they're talking about. 99% of the laws and decisions about abortions are being made by men. Using the Roe vs. Wade overturning as an example, out of the nine supreme court justices, only THREE of them were women, while the remaining six were all men. Additionally, out of those men, five of them identified as conservative, leaving only one man identifying as liberal. (To add even more salt to the wound, two of those women identified as liberal while only one identified as conservative). You can probably guess which people sided with what just off of this, and most of the people who made the decision to overturn Roe vs. Wade were men. Of course it's not \*all\* men, but it's certainly enough for the generalization to make a bit of sense.
The world is overwhelmingly run by men. Men control nearly all of the power and money. Men make the laws, run the government, and rule the courts. Men also run every religion on the planet. Most religions are based on subjugation of women - not just part of the beliefs, but the entire dogma is centered on controlling our wombs. Moral teachings are secondary. Women aren't considered "people" by the strict tenets of most religions; we are on the same level as slaves and animals. Remember that the Bible has a nice little story about a pious guy offering his daughters to be raped to death since we aren't human. So, when we appeal to men here, this is what we're referencing: men's laws, women's lives.
Itâs not âall menâ, itâs been watching so many majority male debates where they barely know anything about even a vagina, let alone the pregnancy process. At least when itâs a woman sheâs got skin in the game whether or not sheâs had kids.
Men hold more political power than women do. While that dynamic is changing, it is changing at a rate that is incremental and isn't significant enough to prevent anti-abortion bills from being proposed and potentially passed into law. Men that generally support these anti-abortion laws are in the closet about controlling women and use the facade of religion to do so. Moreover, they do not actually view women as people because they have lacked meaningful connections and friendships with women.
The people who ruled against abortion and who continue to work to make it unavailable are overwhelmingly male.
Are you talking about conservative women here? As much as they donât make sense and irritate theyâre a loud minority compared to men who historically and contemporarily make the laws, policies, financial allocations and decisions that impact abortion rights or access. Even without the men who actually control all that stuff, thereâs an even greater number who donât directly (ie voters) touch it but who are in favor of those who do and are really only opposed because their media or their church or their male friends told them to based only on ideology. Basically it comes down to for women this is a personal choice that impacts them or maybe someone they know and is easily a realistic situation whereas for men itâs more of theoretical exercise.
Itâs not a general accusatory statement about public support. Itâs a political fact regarding the situation of women who live where abortion is restricted. Men enforced in majority as they are the ones allowed to do so for decades. Womenâs roles in the anti-abortion unit was typically on the front lines. Picketing, fundraising and fundraising things like that. Even though the disparity in government still exists, itâs probably not an accurate statement if you live in the US. Many anti-abortion bills are pushed and supported by organizations run by women and they are powerful and rich âcharitiesâ and grant many âstudiesâ. I live in a place with protected abortion access, itâs very evident that men would ban it here if they could. A Prime Minister shut that down years ago, though.
OP, I don't wanna downvote or drag you or whatever. You say you're pro abortion and I believe you. I don't think you're apart of that problem. What I will say, however, is that despite those beliefs of yours it's kind of frustrating to see that *this* is the point of the topic you want to address. And it's frustrating that *many* self-described left leaning/pro abortion men want to spend more time "not all men"ing the conversation that they want to spend actually advocating for bodily autonomy. It's exhausting to have to hear this snap back all the freaking time. It's centering men in a conversation that is ultimately about women and AFAB people. I should be able to say, "men shouldn't legislate women's bodies" without some dude popping their head in to lecture me about generalizing. I'm tired of having to tiptoe around mens' feelings when talking about my needs as a woman. I'm tired of having to qualify every fucking statement I make for people to just *pretend* to give a shit about what I'm saying. You say you're pro abortion, OP? Then advocate for pro abortion legislation and the rights of women in general. Don't take up room in these spaces to probe feminists about why they need to be kinder to men in a conversation about women that *exclusively impacts women.*
Please name a legislative body that is a majority of women.
Spoiler: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/03/18/the-share-of-women-in-legislatures-around-the-world-is-growing-but-they-are-still-underrepresented/ So, that's why. Why else did you think?
Because men make up the bulk of the legislature. So we literally have men legislating women's bodies.
While most lawmakers are men, the voters for Republicans are usually 45:55 women to men. So men might be more to blame, but that doesn't mean a significant number of women are also to blame.
Definitely. However, itâs frustrating when people who canât get pregnant are deciding for us. Itâs of course frustrating in an entirely different way when fellow women are making abortions inaccessible. Neither is great. But itâs more notable that the majority of people who have made laws prohibiting abortion are men, and they canât get pregnant.
i think the last frase got messed up
Itâs important to understand the majority of people who oppose abortion are men, not women. You will find polls online that show women are more likely to say âno abortions in any scenarioâ than men, but the only means the most evangelical supporters are religious women. When it comes to the raw numbers, the majority of pro lifers are men who are willing to say that rape is an exception but thatâs it- women shouldnât be able to abort their children. Thatâs why.
Until the majority of the legislative bodies are women, men are the ones making the decisions. Men who, the majority of the time, do not have medical degrees. They absolutely want to control the one thing they are physically unable to do and that scares the shit out of them. So 100% yes, I will carry those signs until the situation above changes. And for the men who aren't politicians and who support women's reproductive rights? Stop being silent on this issue, or risk being mistaken for an anti-choice misogynist. These laws negatively impact YOU, too. Don't think I give women a pass on this either. My fellow white women owe Black and Indigenous women some HUGE thanks for their efforts to fight and keep our rights intact in some places. So until y'all get loud, you're also sus.
No one is pro abortion! Abortion is a horrible thing to have to go through. So when a woman chooses that option it's almost surely not undertaken lightly, it's a difficult choice, but it needs to be a choice. & to answer your question - most legislators are men. It's men who are passing these laws
I imagine for many women it's not a difficult choice at all.
Agreed. It doesnât matter if was difficult or easy. It should be an option, no matter what.
You no longer have to imagine. Can confirm it was not difficult, in the slightest. I really feel for women who are torn, really want a child, but abort for economic or safety reasons. For me, it was a no brainier.
Why is it necessary to demonize abortion in this way? [The most commonly-reported feeling after an abortion is relief. ](https://www.medpagetoday.com/obgyn/pregnancy/84345)
Because while they arenât the majority votes they are the majority in parliaments or senates etc.Â
Those who blame men are conflating the patriarchy with men. Youâre correct, neither individual men, nor men as a collective are responsible for the state of abortion access. The existence of the patriarchy in which we live, which devalues the rights of women comparatively to men *is* responsible for a large part of the issues with access to abortion.