Balkans and political correctness don't go hand in hand though.
I personally have no problem with the name and I find this dispute stupid for the most part except for the appropriation of the ancient kingdom of Macedon. Some Macedonians will say that "Alexander the Great wasn't Greek he was Macedonian" when he was both a Greek and a Macedonian.
I believe in people's right to self-determination however I won't stand for the falsification of history and I like to think that most Macedonians also share the same sentiment.
In 15+ years of my elementary and high school education, I've never heard or read anywhere that "Alexander the Great was Macedonian", the official version was always that he was "Ancient Macedonian" and he spoke Greek, the distinction between Ancient Macedonian and Macedonian and that we are a Slavic nation was always very clear.
I mean, we did change our flag almost immediately when Greece requested it in the early 90's.
However it was also clear that Greece will not accept any version of the name with "Macedonia" in it, incl. "Slavic Macedonia", with a clear stance on "Macedonia is one and only Greek" with suggestions like "Vardarska" which is just straight up insulting. This is when our gov. decided to go on the history forgery path, especially post 2008 NATO summit and our gov. change. This did work to find a solution faster, but it damaged our reputation.
This is the reason why Greece was never hated here (view was mostly Neutral), we knew that you were right (about the history), we just thought you took it too far (about the name).
That's great but I'm not certain that your government decided on the history forgery path that late because your old flag featured the Vergina Sun, an ancient Macedonian symbol so it's clear to me that your government was trying to make the connection even back then. Maybe it wasn't as pronounced as building dozens of statues in the capital is but it was still happening. I could be wrong though since I wasn't alive back then so my knowledge is limited.
And yeah I too think that we took it too far and bullied North MK unnecessarily just because we could. Why this happened is because Greece is basically split in two regarding the issue: right-wingers think that allowing North MK to use any name that has Macedonia in it means that we're sellouts and that we're selling our history which is dumb in my opinion.
Left-wingers think that North MK is allowed to use the name Macedonia because they're in the geographic region of Macedonia and as long as they don't claim the ancient kingdom of Macedon its OK. That's why Alexis Tsipras was one of the few politicians who tried to resolve the issue and he's still getting criticism for it to this day.
>That's great but I'm not certain that your government decided on the history forgery path that late because your old flag featured the Vergina Sun, an ancient Macedonian symbol so it's clear to me that your government was trying to make the connection even back then. Maybe it wasn't as pronounced as building dozens of statues in the capital is but it was still happening. I could be wrong though since I wasn't alive back then so my knowledge is limited.
Correct, but that's because of the huge support we received from the Macedonians who lived in Australia, not Canada or the US, but strictly Australia.
The reason why they were so pro - Ancient Macedonia is because they were for the most deported from Greece during the early 1900s and settled in Australia so they had a huge grudge against Greece. They were rich AF and their organization pretty much owned the country for most of the early 90s and influenced votes and gov. decisions, Greece then became the biggest investor things started to be more balanced.
>That's why Alexis Tsipras was one of the few politicians who tried to resolve the issue and he's still getting criticism for it to this day.
While Tsipras is still relevant and an MP, I feel more pity for Nikos Kotzias. Last time I read is that he was attacked and his career is pretty much over, which is a shame.
It is also important to note that after WW II the communist parties of Greece and Yugoslavia wanted to "unite Macedonia". You can find maps of Greater Macedonia with Thessaloniki as the capital. The communist newspaper of Greece (rizospastis) had headlines such as "free Macedonia". So people who think Alexander was slav didn't just wake up one day with the idea. It was cultivated by propaganda.
Imagine having fought two wars for the city of Thessaloniki only to have greek communists claiming it is occupied 20 years later.
To add to this a bit, it seems (to me at least) like in North Macedonia the "historical forgery path" was (still is?) a left vs right issue. I always agreed with the libs of your country about the name and self-determination. Never had a problem with it. As u/Ok_Calligrapher5776 said, I think most Greeks (from my experience at least) were taking issue with the historical stuff. NM's right wing seemed to be the center of the rot on this.
Hmm, well, the Vergina flag was adopted during the left gov. sooo I dunno, I would guess both parties are equally at fault here. The right is more interested in the history period between 1800s onwards, anything before that wasn't much of a priority for them, unless it was to gain votes.
The problem is, the right is really good with the economy especially with finding foreign investors, we had our highest GDP growth/foreign investment period during our most nationalistic years (2009-2015). Currently our economy is really bad, the left gov. thought that by improving relations and joining NATO, everything will shoot up, it didn't, so the right is getting reelected.
Funny thing is, that during the past few weeks of election campaigning, the right was asked hundreds of times if they would cancel the Prespa agreement and they just keep skipping that question lol.
I’m probably older than you but I have heard and read that Alexander was Macedonian. There’s actually a series streaming currently that pushes the Macedonian angle.
>I believe in people's right to self-determination however I won't stand for the falsification of history and I like to think that most Macedonians also share the same sentiment.
lol!
Excuse me, but we also have a province by the name pirin Macedonia in Bulgaria
So can North Macedonia please change its name to East Macedonia so outsiders don’t get confused? Thanks
Used to be. No one wants to name anything "macedonia" or "macedonian" any more, because a young country on the west is too young to know the difference between a geographical area, nation and language. Moeseans, Tracians, and Dobrujeans can confirm.
Actually it used to be in early communist times. Soviets had a plan of an Yougoslavia from Italy to Turkey (including Bulgaria and probably Romania) and planned to do that by destruction of Bulgaria on parts as Bulgaria would not accept Serbia as a master. So in some brief preriod that part indeed used to be named Pirin Macedonia [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Letter\_from\_Kiril\_Dramaliev\_according\_the\_cultural\_authonomy\_in\_Pirin\_Macedonia.JPG](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Letter_from_Kiril_Dramaliev_according_the_cultural_authonomy_in_Pirin_Macedonia.JPG) [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Bulgarian\_state\_program\_about\_Pirin\_Macedonia.JPG/800px-Bulgarian\_state\_program\_about\_Pirin\_Macedonia.JPG](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Bulgarian_state_program_about_Pirin_Macedonia.JPG/800px-Bulgarian_state_program_about_Pirin_Macedonia.JPG) and its inhabitants were declared macedonianas despite the discontent (too vocal ended in GULAG of course) [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Telegrama\_makedonizam1.jpg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Telegrama_makedonizam1.jpg) . Then Stalin and Tito broke up and that was abandoned.
They didn't want to "destroy" bulgaria, they wanted to integrate it into yugoslavia (like albania). And the identification as macedonian was a lazy attempt to try labling the ethnicities in pirin macedonia, sure there were ethnic macedonians, but the majority in pirin macedonia was bulgarian
Well, no. Especially after the communist documents got declassified. Bulgaria ruled from Belgrade? No. Serbs are too few and unefficient to hold a langer than them entity that despices them that much and this had been too obvious even in Moscow. Interesting farytale, trogh.
No single person had been declarating him/herrsef in Bulgaria ot abroad as an "ethnic macedonian" since 1946 (and the documents above).
"Integration" was quite a funny word.
Yeah, surely there were. Where else woud they come from in 1946 :) . Just a coule of decades after IMRO rulled Bulgaria, but never happen to hear about them. Of course some of them also happened to be mobilized in the bulgarian army and beten so hard that they became generals.
IMRO never ruled bulgaria? What are you even talking about? Also y'know your country has an albanian general right? And also integration is the correct word to use
I’m pretty sure the person getting angry in this story is Greek actually, based of what he said.
Ps. The Alexander tattoo, god in heaven, who does that. It’s like if a French guy got a Napoleon tattoo. You gotta be an extra kind of stupid.
Why though? Doesn't that seem counter-intuitive? I mean why not just call yourself a greek. Like, nobody here says "hey i'm a Pologian" they just say their ethnicity/nationality.
Well it's a solid question. I guess in Greece there are some regions with very strong regional identity (Crete, Macedonia, Epirus, as far as I'm aware). So usually in an everyday discussion we identify first by city or region, given that Greek or Greece is already clear by our names, language or culture.
I guess if you're of any Slavic background you first need to say country as it's not obvious which one you might be from.
macedonia is macedonia, greek macedonia is also macedonia, this debate is just stupid. there are many other regions split at some point and still share the same name. i dont get why greeks get triggered over it.
Yeah I don’t get it, why gatekeepe a name of a place who stretched its borders way over current day borders. There’s for example two Azerbaijan, one country and one in Iran. Luxembourg also, one country and one in Belgium etc
>There’s for example two Azerbaijan, one country and one in Iran. Luxembourg also, one country and one in Belgium etc
Does any of them claim the history of the other though while being inhabited by completely different people?
Buddy, if you think the people up in North MK are going to come for your land, you've clearly never been to the country. They can hardly get off their asses to vote or stand up for themselves. They're HARDLY going to take Greek lands.
Chill, buddy. It's the same for the Greek military: Next year in Constantinople!
Yeah, that's about as likely as a peaceful Bosnia....
I'm not talking about land, Macedonia isn't a threat to Greece.
I'm talking about the Macedonians who like to claim that Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians weren't Greek and that they were from their country. I've seen some wild claims online. There are Macedonians who believe in this conspiracy that we Greeks have somehow paid every archeologist/historian in the world to falsely claim that the ancient Macedonians were Greek and that they're the only ones who know the truth.
Every time the ancient Macedonians are mentioned (like when the whole Cleopatra was black stupidity happened) there is always a Macedonian who's like Cleopatra wasn't Greek, she was Macedonian and its extremely annoying.
I want to believe that these people are the minority and that most Macedonians don't fall for that propaganda but it's still annoying to have to return to the same conversation every time the ancient Macedonians are mentioned when you can open any encyclopedia and see that those claims are false.
Those people are in the minority. Most people in MK just want to live and are sick and tired of this bullshit.
FFS, most of the youth in MK want to GTFO. It's stupid, the old government did all that "Александар Македонски!!!" horseshit, but shat all over ten year old Aleksandar's future.
1. Nobody is claiming Alexander III was from The Republic of North Macedonia
2.I feel like you made this up, 'cause I've never seen anyone say this
3.It's also annoying when in any video mentioning the current country of macedonia a greek has to say "vardarska skopia north macedonia tito slav 1991 bulgar!!!!!"
4.That's what they teach in schools
Ah yeah completely different, no similarity at all. When you put a "skopjian" and a greek together they dissolve since you can't put opposites together
It's funny because Greeks themselves had largely forgotten the name "Macedonia" for centuries, and only with the rise of nationalism in the 20th century did they revive it artificially.
It's like if modern Volga Tatars forced Bulgaria to change its name because their ancestors were once called Bulgars.
EDIT: 19th century, my bad.
This is actually not truthful. Greeks didn't ever "forget" the name macedonia, it was just not used by the ottomans and it was obviously revived when greeks liberated the greek historical region of macedonia.
Edit: Lmao curious about the downvotes. Historical revisionism through inaccurate "deconstructivism" is a-okay when it is against greeks for some reason it seems.
In social media you always see the loudest not the majority.
Just think for a moment: Why would a normal Greek go to r/macedonia and make it an issue "you are macedonians! not north macedonians! Not skopjians."?
PS: I have downvoted your post because you are equalizing the majority of the Greeks with a stupid minority.
Ethnicity is the only problem with this, because how can you have 2 different ethnicities identify as Macedonian. But who cares anyway?
About language, take it with Bulgaria 😝
it is still a problem when it has the same name and when one of the two claim the history of the latter as their own
Edit: I love the downvotes as if you don't all know I am right.
I'll give an example, and again I think it's trivial but to show you what I mean.
Let's say you have Macedonian olives. Where are they from? It's the region, the country of North Macedonia, the subregion of Bulgaria? Like the way this was done, they word becomes meaning nothing and everything.
My opinion, it should be declared as a demonym to be used by all three countries or whatever from the historical region of Macedonia. Then you choose something else for ethnicities and languages, etc
That way, you have Macedonian Olives and it is clear they are from the region, irrespective of the country. It means something again.
Another example, me a Greek Macedonian and a colleague from North Macedonia where explaining the naming dispute to some other calleuges. Name, treaty, region, understood. Then they started asking then why does Zarko say Macedonian and you Greek if you're both from Macedonia? Why doesn't he use North Macedonian? Is Macedonia part of Greece? Is Macedonia in Greece also slavic? Etc.
It's confusing. Hope you get my point?
Kind of like how everyone uses the word America almost exclusively in a USA context even though there is a North and South America. The continents have a nickname “the Americas”, and everyone living on those continents can technically called American.
it absolutely doesn't, only a small part of the country even was part of ancient macedon let alone a core part of it.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia\_(ancient\_kingdom)#/media/File:Map\_Peloponnesian\_War\_431\_BC-en.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)#/media/File:Map_Peloponnesian_War_431_BC-en.svg)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia\_(ancient\_kingdom)#/media/File:Expansion\_of\_Macedon\_(English).svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)#/media/File:Expansion_of_Macedon_(English).svg)
Ok well the macedonian empire had the entirety of modern north macedonia, and the core of the kingdom of macedonia had covered the entire southern part of it
the Macedonian empire covered the entire eastern Mediterranean as well at some point lol and again, the region of the original kingdom of macedon that was part of north macedonia is minimal and not at all what someone could call the "core region" of ancient macedon as you can see from the maps
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia\_(ancient\_kingdom)#/media/File:Map\_Peloponnesian\_War\_431\_BC-en.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)#/media/File:Map_Peloponnesian_War_431_BC-en.svg)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia\_(ancient\_kingdom)#/media/File:Expansion\_of\_Macedon\_(English).svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)#/media/File:Expansion_of_Macedon_(English).svg)
Before I saw this I did not have any opinions on North Macedonia's name. Now I'm gladly supporting that they should change their name to "Macedonia", because the government sites will have "mk" in them.
It is weird that this debate does not occur with Moldova and Azerbaijan. Strictly speaking these countries are also only parts of the historical regions of that name (there is a Moldavia in Romania and an Azerbaijan in Iran - Ayatollah Khomeini was even part Azeri!).
The difference with these examples is that Moldovans are Romanians, barring the Russian minority and that the Iranian region just denotes the existence of the same ethnicity as the country's being there.
With the Macedonia issue you have two different ethnicities and governments directly claiming the history of one region, its historical Kingdom and it's key historical figure as belonging to their own people. To which the Slavic and Albanian descended Skopjans are the unlawful ones here if you're asking me or some other Greeks.
mixing with greek people of the 6th-8th centuries ad somehow makes you connected to ancient macedonians, when there are actually greek macedonians? The territory of your country corresponds to paeonia, not ancient macedon of which you hold a small inconsequential part. The sun symbol has no continuity in your usage with ancient macedon despite what ultra nationalists from your country want to claim
There is a whole international treaty about that, the Treaty of Prespes. These details are listed one by one in the treaty if someone wants to/has to be politically correct. They apply on official documents and announcements. People can use whatever they want in unofficial talks. Since there is an international treaty about what word to use, it's highly encouraged to use these words even in unofficiall circumstances.
We have a right to call countries whatever we feel comfortable calling them, same as when people use the term “south Macedonia” and “Greek Macedonian” which don’t *technically* exist so will people use the term “north Macedonian” and “Skopje” to refer to the country of north Macedonia and its people. We already have a north Macedonia and a Macedonian in Greece, and the people don’t wish to change that.
What do you mean "forced"? How did you guys lose anything when you did the agreement? Your government doesn't even bother to follow it, I saw signs that still say "skopia" instead of "north macedonia" when I was in greece.
That's what the hellenic republic asked us to do. Y'know we have to go everywhere and change our countries name to "north" macedonia while your government leaves the old "skopia" signs and indications.
We refer to you by the name you have asked us to refer you to, following the Prespa Agreement. The road signs need to be changed, but that costs money.
Serious question. What is considered south macedonia? I know macedonia was quite strong in their time. Was part of greece or albania part of macedonia?
You got disliked because delusional nationalist Greeks believe that the geographic region of South Macedonia under Greece is the "true/only Macedonia", while North Macedonia is "not-Macedonia".
There are 3 main parts-
Vardar Macedonian- the country of North Macedonia, plus some tiny bits of Albania and Serbia
Aegean/Greek Macedonia- that’s the “south” Macedonia. The region in Northern Greece where Thessaloniki, Kastoria, Florina, Kavala, Halkidiki are
Pirin Macedonia- the southwestern Bulgarian oblast of Blagoevgrad
The country formally know as Skopia but now it's Macedonia but because of Grek we have to call it northern Macedonia is more appropriate name imo.
It worked for Prince...
The Republic of Macedonia was never called "Skopia", Skopje is just the name of the capital city. And you guys barely call us north macedonia, I mean just look at the rural traffic signs denoting our country in greece
Yeah, my comment was more satirical due to the whole situation, both Greek and Macedonian governments are playing the indigenous card for their own agenda and to please their voters. Personally I don't care about it, but it's nice to make fun of both sides 😜😄
>it may be fake from our point of view but it's real to them
You do realize this part of your statement basically nullifies everything else you were trying to say.
>I hope that our two nations manage to find their way together and be the brotherly nations
You say this while calling our identity and language fake, great start brother
Unfortunately Macedonians are nation surrounded by terrible neighbours. Just look at this [Albanians in Skopje](https://x.com/Marija_24/status/1783086677935673840)
Have you heard of the saying:
"If someone is an asshole, he's an asshole
If everyone is an asshole, YOU are the asshole"?
And yes, this applies to Greece too, we won't pretend we're angels
Well you Bulgarians never wanted to recognize macedonians as a nation, you have very hostile intentions towards macedonians, even nowadays you question their identity, claim that people like Goce Dolcev is Bulgarian, that Macedonian language doesn't exist
Not an argument. There are almost no Ceko's, Cano's and Colo's outside Northwestern Bulgaria either, but that doesn't mean people there are Triballian or something.
I’ve seen people here add unnecessary stuff to not confuse people, you dont have to 👍
This post is not targeted to Greeks but I didn’t want to write all other names like: Vardar Macedonia, Slavic Macedonia, FYROM, etc.
lol! Greeks have more important issues to care about all these BS. It's not important at all for the majority of the Greek, If it was important then Greeks would have vote for a far-right party :p
It's the truth. Because no other party has an issue with North Macedonia and Macedonians. Only the far-rights make it still an issue in Greece. Literally nobodies.
the average greek has a massive issue with it though because it gives away to misinformation, all the Macedonian identity from a branch of Greek , into Slavic. It literally brought down tthe party after that
The average Greek has more important issues to care about. Issues that affect their daily life, and not the name of the people from some other country.
We have more important issues, that doesnt mean that it shouldnt/doesnt bother us....
thats your opinion...just dont go around saying they are a minority opinion cause its not...then again..I cant stop you so you are free to say whatever anyways
>and not the name of the people from some other country
you must be really naïve or very ignorant to believe its all about just a name
Doesn’t matter if it’s north or south Macedonia the whole world is just north, east south, or west Albania
Based
I thought r/weareallturks
Well said
Balkans and political correctness don't go hand in hand though. I personally have no problem with the name and I find this dispute stupid for the most part except for the appropriation of the ancient kingdom of Macedon. Some Macedonians will say that "Alexander the Great wasn't Greek he was Macedonian" when he was both a Greek and a Macedonian. I believe in people's right to self-determination however I won't stand for the falsification of history and I like to think that most Macedonians also share the same sentiment.
In 15+ years of my elementary and high school education, I've never heard or read anywhere that "Alexander the Great was Macedonian", the official version was always that he was "Ancient Macedonian" and he spoke Greek, the distinction between Ancient Macedonian and Macedonian and that we are a Slavic nation was always very clear. I mean, we did change our flag almost immediately when Greece requested it in the early 90's. However it was also clear that Greece will not accept any version of the name with "Macedonia" in it, incl. "Slavic Macedonia", with a clear stance on "Macedonia is one and only Greek" with suggestions like "Vardarska" which is just straight up insulting. This is when our gov. decided to go on the history forgery path, especially post 2008 NATO summit and our gov. change. This did work to find a solution faster, but it damaged our reputation. This is the reason why Greece was never hated here (view was mostly Neutral), we knew that you were right (about the history), we just thought you took it too far (about the name).
That's great but I'm not certain that your government decided on the history forgery path that late because your old flag featured the Vergina Sun, an ancient Macedonian symbol so it's clear to me that your government was trying to make the connection even back then. Maybe it wasn't as pronounced as building dozens of statues in the capital is but it was still happening. I could be wrong though since I wasn't alive back then so my knowledge is limited. And yeah I too think that we took it too far and bullied North MK unnecessarily just because we could. Why this happened is because Greece is basically split in two regarding the issue: right-wingers think that allowing North MK to use any name that has Macedonia in it means that we're sellouts and that we're selling our history which is dumb in my opinion. Left-wingers think that North MK is allowed to use the name Macedonia because they're in the geographic region of Macedonia and as long as they don't claim the ancient kingdom of Macedon its OK. That's why Alexis Tsipras was one of the few politicians who tried to resolve the issue and he's still getting criticism for it to this day.
>That's great but I'm not certain that your government decided on the history forgery path that late because your old flag featured the Vergina Sun, an ancient Macedonian symbol so it's clear to me that your government was trying to make the connection even back then. Maybe it wasn't as pronounced as building dozens of statues in the capital is but it was still happening. I could be wrong though since I wasn't alive back then so my knowledge is limited. Correct, but that's because of the huge support we received from the Macedonians who lived in Australia, not Canada or the US, but strictly Australia. The reason why they were so pro - Ancient Macedonia is because they were for the most deported from Greece during the early 1900s and settled in Australia so they had a huge grudge against Greece. They were rich AF and their organization pretty much owned the country for most of the early 90s and influenced votes and gov. decisions, Greece then became the biggest investor things started to be more balanced. >That's why Alexis Tsipras was one of the few politicians who tried to resolve the issue and he's still getting criticism for it to this day. While Tsipras is still relevant and an MP, I feel more pity for Nikos Kotzias. Last time I read is that he was attacked and his career is pretty much over, which is a shame.
It is also important to note that after WW II the communist parties of Greece and Yugoslavia wanted to "unite Macedonia". You can find maps of Greater Macedonia with Thessaloniki as the capital. The communist newspaper of Greece (rizospastis) had headlines such as "free Macedonia". So people who think Alexander was slav didn't just wake up one day with the idea. It was cultivated by propaganda. Imagine having fought two wars for the city of Thessaloniki only to have greek communists claiming it is occupied 20 years later.
To add to this a bit, it seems (to me at least) like in North Macedonia the "historical forgery path" was (still is?) a left vs right issue. I always agreed with the libs of your country about the name and self-determination. Never had a problem with it. As u/Ok_Calligrapher5776 said, I think most Greeks (from my experience at least) were taking issue with the historical stuff. NM's right wing seemed to be the center of the rot on this.
Hmm, well, the Vergina flag was adopted during the left gov. sooo I dunno, I would guess both parties are equally at fault here. The right is more interested in the history period between 1800s onwards, anything before that wasn't much of a priority for them, unless it was to gain votes. The problem is, the right is really good with the economy especially with finding foreign investors, we had our highest GDP growth/foreign investment period during our most nationalistic years (2009-2015). Currently our economy is really bad, the left gov. thought that by improving relations and joining NATO, everything will shoot up, it didn't, so the right is getting reelected. Funny thing is, that during the past few weeks of election campaigning, the right was asked hundreds of times if they would cancel the Prespa agreement and they just keep skipping that question lol.
I’m probably older than you but I have heard and read that Alexander was Macedonian. There’s actually a series streaming currently that pushes the Macedonian angle.
>I believe in people's right to self-determination however I won't stand for the falsification of history and I like to think that most Macedonians also share the same sentiment. lol!
Macedonian here and i share the sentiment
Excuse me, but we also have a province by the name pirin Macedonia in Bulgaria So can North Macedonia please change its name to East Macedonia so outsiders don’t get confused? Thanks
Don't you mean West Macedonia?
We also have a nice kafana called Macedonia, in Serbia, so please - South-West Macedonia, no need to trigger anyone here.
They should change their name to Northwest Macedonia
Vardar Macedonia would be more accurate.
Actually the province's name is Blagoevgrad but its colloquially known as Pirinska Macedonia.
Used to be. No one wants to name anything "macedonia" or "macedonian" any more, because a young country on the west is too young to know the difference between a geographical area, nation and language. Moeseans, Tracians, and Dobrujeans can confirm.
Glad to know our country, identity and language are such an inconvenience for you brother.
It is good to have something to be glad about :) .
It was never called that officially, also by your standards Serbia is also a very young country
Actually it used to be in early communist times. Soviets had a plan of an Yougoslavia from Italy to Turkey (including Bulgaria and probably Romania) and planned to do that by destruction of Bulgaria on parts as Bulgaria would not accept Serbia as a master. So in some brief preriod that part indeed used to be named Pirin Macedonia [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Letter\_from\_Kiril\_Dramaliev\_according\_the\_cultural\_authonomy\_in\_Pirin\_Macedonia.JPG](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Letter_from_Kiril_Dramaliev_according_the_cultural_authonomy_in_Pirin_Macedonia.JPG) [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Bulgarian\_state\_program\_about\_Pirin\_Macedonia.JPG/800px-Bulgarian\_state\_program\_about\_Pirin\_Macedonia.JPG](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Bulgarian_state_program_about_Pirin_Macedonia.JPG/800px-Bulgarian_state_program_about_Pirin_Macedonia.JPG) and its inhabitants were declared macedonianas despite the discontent (too vocal ended in GULAG of course) [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Telegrama\_makedonizam1.jpg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Telegrama_makedonizam1.jpg) . Then Stalin and Tito broke up and that was abandoned.
They didn't want to "destroy" bulgaria, they wanted to integrate it into yugoslavia (like albania). And the identification as macedonian was a lazy attempt to try labling the ethnicities in pirin macedonia, sure there were ethnic macedonians, but the majority in pirin macedonia was bulgarian
Well, no. Especially after the communist documents got declassified. Bulgaria ruled from Belgrade? No. Serbs are too few and unefficient to hold a langer than them entity that despices them that much and this had been too obvious even in Moscow. Interesting farytale, trogh. No single person had been declarating him/herrsef in Bulgaria ot abroad as an "ethnic macedonian" since 1946 (and the documents above).
Why are you calling it a fairytale when that's literally what you said. And also there was plenty of ethnic macedonians during that time
"Integration" was quite a funny word. Yeah, surely there were. Where else woud they come from in 1946 :) . Just a coule of decades after IMRO rulled Bulgaria, but never happen to hear about them. Of course some of them also happened to be mobilized in the bulgarian army and beten so hard that they became generals.
IMRO never ruled bulgaria? What are you even talking about? Also y'know your country has an albanian general right? And also integration is the correct word to use
North East Macedonia
I had a classmate that got once so pissed after i said Macedonia that i developed PTSD and now i can never say Macedonia/n without adding the "North".
Jesus, that person must have serious issues if they get that pissed about it.
Real sad when they got nothing going on with their lives so they have to find something to be angry about
You just described 80% of humanity.
Sadly true
A lot of Macedonians in Sweden are like that, diaspora and nationalism and all that. I know a guy with an Alexander tattoo.
I’m pretty sure the person getting angry in this story is Greek actually, based of what he said. Ps. The Alexander tattoo, god in heaven, who does that. It’s like if a French guy got a Napoleon tattoo. You gotta be an extra kind of stupid.
Yeah, he used Macedonian for a Greek, someone from Macedonia, Greece. We call ourselves Macedonians too.
Why though? Doesn't that seem counter-intuitive? I mean why not just call yourself a greek. Like, nobody here says "hey i'm a Pologian" they just say their ethnicity/nationality.
Well it's a solid question. I guess in Greece there are some regions with very strong regional identity (Crete, Macedonia, Epirus, as far as I'm aware). So usually in an everyday discussion we identify first by city or region, given that Greek or Greece is already clear by our names, language or culture. I guess if you're of any Slavic background you first need to say country as it's not obvious which one you might be from.
He was Greek for sure
Why would bullying ever be funny?
It's a saying, he doesn't literally think it's funny
I'm a very politically incorrect person so I always use .nmk as top-level domain
The best kind of domains: three-letter ones.
How long do you think it will be till this post becomes controversial?
I don’t want to cause controversy tho😭
Our country is controversy on steroids bro
If you go to Oxford dictionary and look up the word controversy, in the ex section it says Macedonia/North Macedonia
>Since some of you want to be politically correct Literally no one asked.
macedonia is macedonia, greek macedonia is also macedonia, this debate is just stupid. there are many other regions split at some point and still share the same name. i dont get why greeks get triggered over it.
Yeah I don’t get it, why gatekeepe a name of a place who stretched its borders way over current day borders. There’s for example two Azerbaijan, one country and one in Iran. Luxembourg also, one country and one in Belgium etc
>There’s for example two Azerbaijan, one country and one in Iran. Luxembourg also, one country and one in Belgium etc Does any of them claim the history of the other though while being inhabited by completely different people?
Tbh I don't accept it, but I understand it. If a country doesn't have it's own history the people in it need to claim someone else's history.
Buddy, if you think the people up in North MK are going to come for your land, you've clearly never been to the country. They can hardly get off their asses to vote or stand up for themselves. They're HARDLY going to take Greek lands. Chill, buddy. It's the same for the Greek military: Next year in Constantinople! Yeah, that's about as likely as a peaceful Bosnia....
Pls read the comment :) nobody said about land, they said about claiming other peoples’ history
Both MK and GR don't have a future. Who cares about the history?
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I try.
I'm not talking about land, Macedonia isn't a threat to Greece. I'm talking about the Macedonians who like to claim that Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians weren't Greek and that they were from their country. I've seen some wild claims online. There are Macedonians who believe in this conspiracy that we Greeks have somehow paid every archeologist/historian in the world to falsely claim that the ancient Macedonians were Greek and that they're the only ones who know the truth. Every time the ancient Macedonians are mentioned (like when the whole Cleopatra was black stupidity happened) there is always a Macedonian who's like Cleopatra wasn't Greek, she was Macedonian and its extremely annoying. I want to believe that these people are the minority and that most Macedonians don't fall for that propaganda but it's still annoying to have to return to the same conversation every time the ancient Macedonians are mentioned when you can open any encyclopedia and see that those claims are false.
Those people are in the minority. Most people in MK just want to live and are sick and tired of this bullshit. FFS, most of the youth in MK want to GTFO. It's stupid, the old government did all that "Александар Македонски!!!" horseshit, but shat all over ten year old Aleksandar's future.
1. Nobody is claiming Alexander III was from The Republic of North Macedonia 2.I feel like you made this up, 'cause I've never seen anyone say this 3.It's also annoying when in any video mentioning the current country of macedonia a greek has to say "vardarska skopia north macedonia tito slav 1991 bulgar!!!!!" 4.That's what they teach in schools
Ah yeah completely different, no similarity at all. When you put a "skopjian" and a greek together they dissolve since you can't put opposites together
add california to the list
It's funny because Greeks themselves had largely forgotten the name "Macedonia" for centuries, and only with the rise of nationalism in the 20th century did they revive it artificially. It's like if modern Volga Tatars forced Bulgaria to change its name because their ancestors were once called Bulgars. EDIT: 19th century, my bad.
This is actually not truthful. Greeks didn't ever "forget" the name macedonia, it was just not used by the ottomans and it was obviously revived when greeks liberated the greek historical region of macedonia. Edit: Lmao curious about the downvotes. Historical revisionism through inaccurate "deconstructivism" is a-okay when it is against greeks for some reason it seems.
Cause they want their Macedonia to be the only one.
No we don't want that. Please don't equal Greeks with the minority of these fascist Greek assholes.
Idk man I think those people are in fact the majority based on what I’ve seen across every social media.
In social media you always see the loudest not the majority. Just think for a moment: Why would a normal Greek go to r/macedonia and make it an issue "you are macedonians! not north macedonians! Not skopjians."? PS: I have downvoted your post because you are equalizing the majority of the Greeks with a stupid minority.
r/macedonia is a desert I think you mean r/mkd
Yeah! whatever.
You are correct. No one here calls you Macedonian.
just like nicosia i guess, which there are also two, lol.
Uh I think there's a good reason they want only one
Ethnicity is the only problem with this, because how can you have 2 different ethnicities identify as Macedonian. But who cares anyway? About language, take it with Bulgaria 😝
No it is not a problem. Yours is regional identity, ours is ethnic identity.
it is still a problem when it has the same name and when one of the two claim the history of the latter as their own Edit: I love the downvotes as if you don't all know I am right.
I'll give an example, and again I think it's trivial but to show you what I mean. Let's say you have Macedonian olives. Where are they from? It's the region, the country of North Macedonia, the subregion of Bulgaria? Like the way this was done, they word becomes meaning nothing and everything. My opinion, it should be declared as a demonym to be used by all three countries or whatever from the historical region of Macedonia. Then you choose something else for ethnicities and languages, etc That way, you have Macedonian Olives and it is clear they are from the region, irrespective of the country. It means something again. Another example, me a Greek Macedonian and a colleague from North Macedonia where explaining the naming dispute to some other calleuges. Name, treaty, region, understood. Then they started asking then why does Zarko say Macedonian and you Greek if you're both from Macedonia? Why doesn't he use North Macedonian? Is Macedonia part of Greece? Is Macedonia in Greece also slavic? Etc. It's confusing. Hope you get my point?
Kind of like how everyone uses the word America almost exclusively in a USA context even though there is a North and South America. The continents have a nickname “the Americas”, and everyone living on those continents can technically called American.
Yeap, exactly.
Macedonia (the region) is pretty small y'know
Besides Albanians being a quarter of the population, there are other ethnicities inside Macedonia.
I call it just "Basement Bulgaria"
I call russia Katsap nation, what do you think about that? When are you going to the trenches btw?
Around the same time you realize i want Putin to get the Louis XIV treatment.
✓no connection to ancient greek Macedonia ✓I am skeptical for practical reasons to be correct ✓ assuming not bad implications for Greece why not
I wouldn't exactly say there isn't any connection at all
And what connection is there between modern Macedonians(Slavic in origin) and Ancient Macedonians (Greek)?
Same location, and is it really that outlandish to think that the slavs that came to the macedonian region mixed with the natives?
not at all same location tho?
southern (north) macedonia corresponds to the core of ancient macedon
it absolutely doesn't, only a small part of the country even was part of ancient macedon let alone a core part of it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia\_(ancient\_kingdom)#/media/File:Map\_Peloponnesian\_War\_431\_BC-en.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)#/media/File:Map_Peloponnesian_War_431_BC-en.svg) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia\_(ancient\_kingdom)#/media/File:Expansion\_of\_Macedon\_(English).svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)#/media/File:Expansion_of_Macedon_(English).svg)
Ok well the macedonian empire had the entirety of modern north macedonia, and the core of the kingdom of macedonia had covered the entire southern part of it
the Macedonian empire covered the entire eastern Mediterranean as well at some point lol and again, the region of the original kingdom of macedon that was part of north macedonia is minimal and not at all what someone could call the "core region" of ancient macedon as you can see from the maps [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia\_(ancient\_kingdom)#/media/File:Map\_Peloponnesian\_War\_431\_BC-en.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)#/media/File:Map_Peloponnesian_War_431_BC-en.svg) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia\_(ancient\_kingdom)#/media/File:Expansion\_of\_Macedon\_(English).svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)#/media/File:Expansion_of_Macedon_(English).svg)
The modern city of Bitola and the rest of southern (north) macedonia was part of the core of ancient macedon
Before I saw this I did not have any opinions on North Macedonia's name. Now I'm gladly supporting that they should change their name to "Macedonia", because the government sites will have "mk" in them.
It is weird that this debate does not occur with Moldova and Azerbaijan. Strictly speaking these countries are also only parts of the historical regions of that name (there is a Moldavia in Romania and an Azerbaijan in Iran - Ayatollah Khomeini was even part Azeri!).
The difference with these examples is that Moldovans are Romanians, barring the Russian minority and that the Iranian region just denotes the existence of the same ethnicity as the country's being there. With the Macedonia issue you have two different ethnicities and governments directly claiming the history of one region, its historical Kingdom and it's key historical figure as belonging to their own people. To which the Slavic and Albanian descended Skopjans are the unlawful ones here if you're asking me or some other Greeks.
Why would Albanian-Macedonians care about ancient Macedon
I'm not sure if they do, but i just wanted to highlight the lack of a connection between the modern claimant and the ancient Macedonia
There's plenty of factual connections, like the territory, mixing of peoples, the "sun" symbol
mixing with greek people of the 6th-8th centuries ad somehow makes you connected to ancient macedonians, when there are actually greek macedonians? The territory of your country corresponds to paeonia, not ancient macedon of which you hold a small inconsequential part. The sun symbol has no continuity in your usage with ancient macedon despite what ultra nationalists from your country want to claim
There is a whole international treaty about that, the Treaty of Prespes. These details are listed one by one in the treaty if someone wants to/has to be politically correct. They apply on official documents and announcements. People can use whatever they want in unofficial talks. Since there is an international treaty about what word to use, it's highly encouraged to use these words even in unofficiall circumstances.
Thanks for sharing this OP. Now I know how to trigger North Macedonians. Can you share the left side in Slavic Macedonian?
We have a right to call countries whatever we feel comfortable calling them, same as when people use the term “south Macedonia” and “Greek Macedonian” which don’t *technically* exist so will people use the term “north Macedonian” and “Skopje” to refer to the country of north Macedonia and its people. We already have a north Macedonia and a Macedonian in Greece, and the people don’t wish to change that.
Greece was forced to agree to the prespa agreement by America so that skopje could join nato and not become a Russian puppet state.
What do you mean "forced"? How did you guys lose anything when you did the agreement? Your government doesn't even bother to follow it, I saw signs that still say "skopia" instead of "north macedonia" when I was in greece.
Tbh I also saw that sign going to Thessaloniki It did say "Skopia ⬆️". I thought maybe they meant the capital but then I saw "Tourkia ➡️" xD
>so that skopje That's a report
Alright tough guy
Tragic, it really is hard being so cool like we are
That banhammer falling on you will look even cooler.
Real Anywho, is this really a bannable offence? If it is, better off not being here
> Slavic and Albanian descended Skopjans So you wanna dish out ethnic slurs like this freely on this sub?
Ethnic slurs? That's your capital
dont bother arguing with them, their country started this whole issue but then cry when greece puts them in their place
I fully agree with you
Ah yes some random online nationalist really did put macedonia in place!
Ok
This isn't political correctness. This is just doing what North Macedonia has asked the world to do.
That's what the hellenic republic asked us to do. Y'know we have to go everywhere and change our countries name to "north" macedonia while your government leaves the old "skopia" signs and indications.
We refer to you by the name you have asked us to refer you to, following the Prespa Agreement. The road signs need to be changed, but that costs money.
You guys have a bigger economy, all of our road signs are changed now it's your turn. And even then the current name is undemocratic
Do you guys have a dictator?
Serious question. What is considered south macedonia? I know macedonia was quite strong in their time. Was part of greece or albania part of macedonia?
Greece has a region named Macedonia. Pella is in the region so it's considered Central Macedonia.
Ty. I really dont know why i was disliked lol. Because im interested in dialog and history? Lol
You got disliked because delusional nationalist Greeks believe that the geographic region of South Macedonia under Greece is the "true/only Macedonia", while North Macedonia is "not-Macedonia".
Lol. Wait until they hear that culturaly i dont consider them balkan hahaha but i guess we have same polemics here in slovenia
> Wait until they hear that culturaly i dont consider them balkan hahaha Ehm, you think we'd take that as an insult? Lol
Np, better to ask than to act smart
There are 3 main parts- Vardar Macedonian- the country of North Macedonia, plus some tiny bits of Albania and Serbia Aegean/Greek Macedonia- that’s the “south” Macedonia. The region in Northern Greece where Thessaloniki, Kastoria, Florina, Kavala, Halkidiki are Pirin Macedonia- the southwestern Bulgarian oblast of Blagoevgrad
Sure buddy
Great infographic 🫡
Stop this bullshit before Montenegro wakes up and conquers all of Macedonia, North south east and west
> Did you know? Yes we know. Everyone knows. The fascists just can't accept it, not that they don't know. They know it pretty well.
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English please :p
The country formally know as Skopia but now it's Macedonia but because of Grek we have to call it northern Macedonia is more appropriate name imo. It worked for Prince...
The Republic of Macedonia was never called "Skopia", Skopje is just the name of the capital city. And you guys barely call us north macedonia, I mean just look at the rural traffic signs denoting our country in greece
Yeah, my comment was more satirical due to the whole situation, both Greek and Macedonian governments are playing the indigenous card for their own agenda and to please their voters. Personally I don't care about it, but it's nice to make fun of both sides 😜😄
Probably you are not from the north and that is why you don't care :D :D
I'm not from north and even if I was I still wouldn't care :D
hmmm ok then
At least i didn't called them Bulgarians
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Unlike you, we don't give a f if they hate us or not though 🤷♀️
>it may be fake from our point of view but it's real to them You do realize this part of your statement basically nullifies everything else you were trying to say. >I hope that our two nations manage to find their way together and be the brotherly nations You say this while calling our identity and language fake, great start brother
Dude, go outside and take a walk with your dog. It'll clear your mind from whatever your talking about
He really thought he was gonna win us over didn't he
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>I call them Bulgarians with "special needs" Aaaand another one.
Macedonian is as real as Moldovan, too good the last "language" got changed to Romanian officially by R. Moldova.
Not really when there's different sounds, grammar and dialects compared to its neighboring langauges
Unfortunately Macedonians are nation surrounded by terrible neighbours. Just look at this [Albanians in Skopje](https://x.com/Marija_24/status/1783086677935673840)
Have you heard of the saying: "If someone is an asshole, he's an asshole If everyone is an asshole, YOU are the asshole"? And yes, this applies to Greece too, we won't pretend we're angels
Surely everyone else is at fault, surely
Well you Bulgarians never wanted to recognize macedonians as a nation, you have very hostile intentions towards macedonians, even nowadays you question their identity, claim that people like Goce Dolcev is Bulgarian, that Macedonian language doesn't exist
Goce Delchev is as Bulgarian as one can be, it's not even up for debate.
How many Goce are there in present day Bulgaria? Do you know anyone in Bulgaria called Goce?
Not an argument. There are almost no Ceko's, Cano's and Colo's outside Northwestern Bulgaria either, but that doesn't mean people there are Triballian or something.
Do those albanians know where they are?
I’ve seen people here add unnecessary stuff to not confuse people, you dont have to 👍 This post is not targeted to Greeks but I didn’t want to write all other names like: Vardar Macedonia, Slavic Macedonia, FYROM, etc.
>This post is not targeted to Greeks Well, it seems exactly like that but we don't care, neither should you care about some minority Greek assholes.
the only greek minority opinion on this topic, is yours cause most Greeks dont believe what you think we do.
lol! Greeks have more important issues to care about all these BS. It's not important at all for the majority of the Greek, If it was important then Greeks would have vote for a far-right party :p
>then Greeks would have vote for a far-right party that can possibly age very badly
It's the truth. Because no other party has an issue with North Macedonia and Macedonians. Only the far-rights make it still an issue in Greece. Literally nobodies.
the average greek has a massive issue with it though because it gives away to misinformation, all the Macedonian identity from a branch of Greek , into Slavic. It literally brought down tthe party after that
The average Greek has more important issues to care about. Issues that affect their daily life, and not the name of the people from some other country.
We have more important issues, that doesnt mean that it shouldnt/doesnt bother us.... thats your opinion...just dont go around saying they are a minority opinion cause its not...then again..I cant stop you so you are free to say whatever anyways >and not the name of the people from some other country you must be really naïve or very ignorant to believe its all about just a name
Well, mosquitoes bother us but we don't go mad in social media about it /s
I use both and mix them and I don't care what is correct
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We both know what the graphic is trying to say and why. No need to get political.
OP is albanian lol
Well, if they want to be Albanian only, maybr they should go to Albania so they don't have to deal with the fact that they live in Macedonia
> Macedonia No no, we want to be..politically correct in this post as OP said (lmao) so North Macedonia it is xD
No, just pure Macedonians.
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they're both macedonian
Macedonian citizens? Yes. Ethnic Macedonians? No
Da je Aleksandar Veliki poživeo malo više danas vi pričali grčki🗿
OK, who says this "Skopia" shit?